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Episode 024: A Conversation on Supporting New Parents with Dr. Jessie Everts

how to support new parents in the workplace

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Dr. Jessie Everts as they discuss some of the mental health challenges faced by new parents, and what leaders and colleagues in the workplace can do to provide meaningful support for those who may be struggling.

About our guest

Jessie Everts, PhD LMFT is a therapist, mom, yoga/mindfulness teacher, author, and mental health consultant. She uses mindfulness practices in her work, in her parenting, and in her life. She is the author of two books, Brave New Mom: A survival guide for mindfully navigating postpartum motherhood and Connecting with Loneliness: A Guided Journal. She is passionate about bringing mental health knowledge and skills to people outside of the therapy office, and helping people feel more self-compassionate and connected. She lives in Minnesota with her spouse and two strong-willed children.

Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson 0:00
Hello, and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations, where each week we explore a topic to help us have more meaningful conversations with ourselves and with each other. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, and I’m so excited to bring on our guest, Dr. Jessie Everts. You know, it’s my first time getting to, like, formally introduce you, and you’ll all understand here in a minute about our history. But, let me- let me tell you a little bit about Jessie and the conversation we’ll be exploring. So, Jessie Everts is a PhD and LMFT. She’s a therapist, mom, yoga mindfulness teacher, author, and mental health consultant. She uses mindfulness practices in her work, in her parenting, and in her life. She is the author of two books, “Brave New Mom: A Survival Guide for Mindfully Navigating Postpartum Motherhood,” and “Connecting with Loneliness, A Guided Journal.” She is passionate about bringing mental health knowledge and skills to people outside of the therapy office, and helping people feel more self-compassionate and connected. She lives in Minnesota with her spouse and two strong willed children. Welcome to the show, Jessie.

Jessie Everts 1:10
Thank you, thank you so much for having me.

Sarah Noll Wilson 1:12
What- What else would you like people to know about you?

Jessie Everts 1:16
Oh, my gosh, well, that’s- those are the big things, but that I wrote “Brave New Mom,” which I’ll show, I think it’s beautiful. I didn’t design this, but I think it’s amazing-

Sarah Noll Wilson 1:26
It’s such a beautiful book.

Jessie Everts 1:27
It is beautiful. But I wrote it during COVID. So I wrote it in the early days of COVID, when we were really, like, my kids were here, we were- I was doing full time childcare, and working, and like so many other families, just like, trying to make things work. And so the experience that I talked about in the book is of, like, new mom survival mode was very- was happening all over again with my kids, you know, in 2020. So I can really relate to all the parents who have had a hard time, and are trying to figure out still how to make, you know, parenting, and working, and worrying about health all work at the same time. So.

Sarah Noll Wilson 2:07
Right. Just existing. You know, like, in this world. Just a quick fun side note for those of you who are listening, we go way back, but we haven’t seen each other or talked to each other in a while. We were in high school together, you were a few years ahead of me, and we ran in the same circles and did a lot of theater together. And so this is, it’s a little bit of a reunion for us. It is, you know, they’ll hear, they’ll hear, my, you know, like, my- the smile in my voice, you know, as I’m talking. I- no, I’m- you know, and we’ve been connected and following each other on social media for a number of years now. And, you know, one of the things that I’m- I don’t want to say excited, but I think is really important is is for us to explore and talk about, you know, how do we better understand for ourselves if people are going through it, but also for those around us, you know, specifically spending some time on postpartum depression. Now for those of you who might be listening, going well, I don’t have children, I don’t know that I’m ever going to have children, before you stop, you know, before you turn off, the reality is, is you will know people who have children, you will be working with people, you might be leading people. And, you know, and I think that it still feels like something that a lot of people, I mean this goes to some, like, all kinds of mental health, depending on the culture you’re brought up into, depending on your organization, your- yeah, just like your family dynamics, that it can be really scary to say I’m struggling and I need help. And then it can be really hard for people to know how to show up. So today is about how do we explore showing up for yourself and for other people? What- you know, I want- take me back a little bit. You know, selfishly, I’m curious to know about your journey. But just so, you know, summarize, you know, what’s been your journey? When did you know that this was the field you want to get into? And then when did it become clear that you wanted to really focus, you know, both in your writings and in your work, on focusing on parenting?

Jessie Everts 4:17
Yeah, well I, way back, just knew I wanted to be a therapist. I mean, I kind of from college on, that was- I didn’t know what kind of therapist, and there are lots of different kinds of therapists, and we can get into that too. But because I think it’s part of breaking down the stigma of going to seek therapy, is that there’s all kinds of therapists out there who do all different kinds of things. So I decided I wanted to be a marriage and family therapist, because at the time I wanted to work with kids. And I did school based mental health for quite a long time, where I was kind of officed in the school and working with kids who are at high risk, or having mental health struggles, but so much- seeing that I needed to also work with parents, that you can very rarely work with a kid without working with the parents and make any kind of meaningful change. So I did start working with kind of whole families, and around that same time I was in a nonprofit job, we’re working with women with addiction and their kids, kind of in a treatment setting, is when I had my kids, three years apart, but both working in this kind of bigger company. And, just, I mean, I was fairly well resourced and worked in an all women’s agency, but yet had all kinds of struggles trying to figure out like, who am I now after I have kids, and trying to fit that person into the- back into the workplace, and feeling all kinds of guilt that I couldn’t be productive at the levels that I used to be before I had kids, that I couldn’t stay past six o’clock, or that I couldn’t, you know, when my kids were sick I had to take time off, and all the way down to the minutia, as I know others have struggled with things about pumping at work and trying to talk about, you know, maternal leave, but also paternal leave, and things like that in my organization that really started to steer me toward wow, there’s a lot to do with perinatal mental health is what we call it in the, in the mental health world, because that encompasses both pregnancy all the way through postpartum. And they’ll say that postpartum is two years after you have a baby, but any time after you have a baby, you are postpartum. So my kids are a little older now, but I’m still postpartum. And so I think that, you know, just paying attention to more of the emotional health- even when I had my kids six and nine years ago, it was a different world that we weren’t talking a lot about. Postpartum Depression was just starting to be on the radar, but all kinds of other postpartum issues were not. And so I think that it’s just- felt like such a need out there. And also, yeah, to sort of take it to the next level of workplaces, and what can somebody who, who’s in charge of a workplace do to support parents, both the birthing parents, and a non birthing parent, a partner of someone who’s had a baby, I think that’s really important.

Sarah Noll Wilson 7:10
It’s so- it’s, I mean, like, I’m not surprised, but when I think of- you know, because patriarchy and all that fun stuff, but, you know, I mean, something that is so natural, and something that’s so common, is still so, like, not talked about or normalized in a way where, you know, that was something we heard when we reached out for people to send in questions or to share their stories, was just, you know, I just felt like I couldn’t ask for help, or I didn’t know how to bring it up, or I didn’t know how to bring it up with my, you know, my birthing partner, who maybe I noticed some signs. And it’s, you know, it just always makes me really sad when it’s- this is, I mean, this is, you know, it’s such a such a normal, natural process. And these are normal natural feelings and experiences. And yet we’ll just, you know, keep them in the shadows a bit, or talk about them intellectually, right, like, without getting into the nuance of it.

Jessie Everts 8:12
Yeah. Yeah. And I think we can’t do that anymore, I mean, I think that maybe one of the things the pandemic showed, is that, like, if those two major roles in your life, being a parent and being a worker, are in conflict, and there’s not room for both, the one that goes is the workplace, because the other one can’t go. You know, gosh, I read somewhere, that something like 7 million workers had to leave work during the pandemic to provide childcare, to parent their kids. Mostly women, but, but not all. And so I think that, yeah, we can’t just assume that, like, parenting just happens in your home, and you don’t need to talk about it anywhere else, or it doesn’t affect you anywhere else. Because that’s not true. It kind of- it definitely contributed to this great resignation that we’ve seen over the past few years.

Sarah Noll Wilson 9:00
Oh, yeah. I mean, 100%, because people have gotten really clear about what’s important to them, you know, and the thing is, honoring people’s whole experience has always been important, it just hasn’t always been valued. And, you know, we, you know, for people who are listening, who are, you know, who maybe listen to the show specifically to get thoughts on, like, how to, how to support their team members more effectively, or the people that they support, that role doesn’t stop at the door. You know, I mean, it’s- and I think that that’s, that’s always been something that I want to always- want to continue to push, is I don’t, I don’t leave my personal self at the door. I can’t, maybe I can compartmentalize it in the short term, but it’s still, it’s still with me. And, and I know something that we’re seeing quite a bit, is, you know, especially in light of recent, the recent Roe versus Wade ruling, is that particularly in the US, a lot of women, I mean, we have a number of clients who are currently pregnant, and who are just really heavy, they feel really heavy, and worried. And that impacts them personally, it also impacts them professionally, and how do we, how do we just learn more so we can- you know, I always say like, when we can see differently, we can do differently. And that’s part of why we’re here today.

Jessie Everts 10:30
Yeah, I think anybody who is in their childbearing years, or yet to come to their childbearing years, this is on their minds, right? These past few weeks of sort of, do I have control or charge or choice in whether or when I expand my family, or whether or when I need to take leave from work? Or whether or when, you know, if I have a medical complication, right, I need to terminate a pregnancy for whatever reason, if that’s going to be okay. And lots of workplaces that I consult in to, are having these major conversations about how do we support our employees, regardless of where they live, or, you know, where they, where they work, to maintain that choice, which I think is a great conversation to have. Especially, I’m seeing lots of male-led organizations have that discussion, and in a really supportive way, of this is not a, this is not for us to decide, it’s for us to support, you know. And I think that’s wonderful, and also, yeah, scary, scary and terrifying for, for lots of people that I’ve worked with, who are in that perinatal period. And I mean, working with women who have had to terminate pregnancies, for all kinds of reasons, wanted pregnancies that they couldn’t carry through to term for whatever reason, or even those who would just have not wanted to carry a pregnancy to term, that this is, you know, across the board, a hard thing to, to make fit with this idea of how your life is gonna go.

Sarah Noll Wilson 11:57
Yeah, yeah, it was, you know, we were actually talking with some clients up in Canada. And we both, my colleague and I, we were remarking on those are the first women when we talked to this week that felt light, because they’re not impacted by this, you know, hopefully, they won’t be here, yet. And so that was just something we noticed. But so, you know, and so let’s- so let’s, let’s dig in a little bit more. I mean, you know, I want to spend as much time as we can, and our conversation will go where it needs to go, but specifically talking about postpartum depression, and, and all of that that goes along with it, I think that, you know, again, it’s- sometimes there are these experiences, that we’re familiar with the names of them, you know, so I mean- full disclosure to the audience, many of you know this, but I don’t have children, I’m child free by choice. I am a very involved aunt, we’re, you know, we support the little ones in our lives differently. And, you know, and even for me, though, again, I have lots of sisters and sister in laws and friends that have gone through this, who have experienced it, and have seen firsthand how hard it can be, you know, when everything in the movies tells you, oh, as soon as that baby comes out, you know, like, you just, you’re gonna bond with it immediately. It’s gonna be the, you know, like, perfect birthing experience. And, you know, all of them have said fairly explicitly, it’s the hardest thing they’ve ever done. Like, period. Yeah, no, go ahead. What-

Jessie Everts 13:37
Well, yeah, I think there is, there has been, and I think we’re coming away from it, but it’s slow to leave this myth of, yeah, how both pregnancy, birth and, and the early years of being a parent are supposed to go. That are idyllic, and you’re supposed to enjoy all of it, and you’re supposed to love it, and it won’t be difficult, and you’ll just know what to do. And all of that is a myth. All of that’s a myth. And for a lot of women, they don’t I mean, for a lot of birthing people, and I’ll try to say birthing people, because not everybody who is pregnant or has a baby identifies as a woman, but yeah, not everybody enjoys pregnancy, not everybody has a good birth experience. There’s something like 34% of births are traumatic birth, so something goes wrong, or something has to be done differently than you expected in the birth situation. And then the early months, and you’re after, or- yeah, you don’t, you don’t know how you’re gonna feel and you don’t know kind of what to expect. And so us putting an expectation of, well, it should just all go fine, you should just know what to do, and if you don’t, then there’s probably something wrong with you, is that- is the other piece that parents take on, and is if I’m struggling, then that must mean there’s something wrong with me, not that this is a really hard thing that everybody goes through.

Sarah Noll Wilson 14:50
Right, right. We, you know, we were just, my colleague Teresa and I, we were talking with a client who, you know, is pregnant and just navigating all this, and she said, I just know when she comes, I’ll be, you know, like, I’ll be bonded. I’ll be whatever, and she made some comment, and Teresa, who has three children, you know, who are- now range in age from eight to 12, she goes, and you also might not feel that right away. And that’s also normal and okay. And, you know, and it gave the person a little bit of a pause, of oh, right. We, so, okay, so let’s, let’s talk about- help us understand, you know, speaking to somebody who hasn’t experienced this, help us unpack and understand postpartum depression. What does it look like? And we’ll just start there. We’ll just keep it more open ended.

Jessie Everts 15:39
Sure. Yeah. And we, again, in the mental health field, call it perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, because it can start during pregnancy, it’s likely you can have- and depression is maybe the most known, but postpartum anxiety is also probably as prevalent, we just don’t talk about it as much yet. But, so we call it perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, that kind of encapsulates anything that can, mental health wise, come up during pregnancy and postpartum. But I think that it’s, it’s, you know, different from any other period of your life in which your hormones are all over the place, because you’re growing a baby, and then having a baby, and then your hormones crash back down to like reregulating themselves. So, so for everybody, there’s a period after you have a baby, called the baby blues that that happens, just because of that hormone shift, right? Like, just because the hormones are trying to reregulate after you have a baby. Almost everybody experiences some mood changes in those first couple of weeks after you have a baby, just because of that kind of- your body’s just trying to figure out what to do here. So most people do feel either depressed or sad, or for me, it was really intense emotions, like high highs and low lows. And those first couple of weeks, I’d be crying for no reason at all. And my husband would ask, like, what’s going on, and I would say, I don’t know, I’m either so happy or so sad, I don’t really know, like, it all just feels kind of mixed up and jumbled. So that that period of, of kind of readjustment after birth is so normal and something most people go through. But when it is longer than about two weeks is when we might start to think of it as postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety. If there’s kind of symptoms that persist, or if they’re really severe, if people are having suicidal thoughts, or things like that that we don’t want to ignore, even in those first couple of weeks, but kind of- and so I like the idea of sort of opening the conversation during pregnancy, even if there’s a partner or support person, to just check in daily, almost, and say, how are you feeling? And really kind of tune into the answers that both the person who’s pregnant and a partner or support person can kind of help track and sort of see, like, does this feel like normal mood fluctuations that we all have, some days are not so great, and some days are better, or is it persisting for a long period of time? Is it over two weeks that we’ve been checking, and every day you feel pretty low and sad, and no energy? But the other part that is complicated, is that after you have a baby, you’re not sleeping well. And sleep, so- affects every part of mental health. I mean, you can’t, it’s very hard to feel good when you’re not sleeping regularly. And so knowing that you’re probably also not necessarily paying attention to some of your own bodily needs, like nutrition, and you’re not able to exercise or do physical movement for a while after birth, just- and you’re just so focused on this baby and keeping this baby alive, for a lot of people it, sort of, like your own self care goes to the wayside. So that’s a part to sort of be prepared for, and also to tune into, is like, am I taking care of myself, because it’s really hard to get through anything difficult if I’m not. But that, the sleep especially, is sort of a new frontier for a lot of people who haven’t had trouble with sleep before having a baby, that that’s really hard to work on your mood, or feel better if you’re not also figuring out how, and it’s impossible to sleep like you did before you had a baby. But if partners can, or support people can help, you know, at least make sure you’re getting a chunk of sleep that’s long enough to go through a full REM cycle, is really kind of the guideline we talk about, is like, everybody needs a two to three hour chunk of sleep to even be able to kind of function and get through the day, so figuring out together how that can happen, how responsibilities can be shared so that sleep is at least less likely to impact the mental health than anything else. But yeah, that- beyond a few weeks, and with intense symptoms, things like low mood, lack of interest in activities that you used to like, feeling maybe really fatigued beyond the point of- beyond what we would normally expect a new parent to feel with lack of sleep. Those are signs of postpartum depression that probably needs some kind of intervention, it’s- it’s unlikely that you just sort of get through that on your own, and people can and people do certainly kind of just wait it out. But there are, there is a lot of help available. And I hope that we’re, you know, by opening these conversations with partners, and with support people, that the idea of going to therapy, even for a short period of time after you have a baby, is more and more accepted. And I think that it is, and I hope that it is. But I think talking about that, like the possibility of that, even in pregnancy, is really helpful, because then by the time you’re in that really vulnerable kind of period, it’s less, less of a scary thing to say, like, why don’t you go talk to somebody about this, because if somebody has not considered that option at all, and now is feeling really low, and vulnerable, and fatigued, and tired, and like, it’s never gonna get better, that’s a really hard time to convince somebody to go get help. So what I love, a trend that I love, is that I’ve seen a lot of pregnant people coming in to therapy in the end of the pregnancy, just to sort of get to know a therapist, have somebody who knows your baseline, have somebody who knows you a little bit before you have the baby, and then just check in afterward, whether things are going great or not, like, then you have a relationship with a therapist who can be there, and be supportive when you need it, if you need it.

Sarah Noll Wilson 21:23
You’ve laid out a lot of really great information, and I want to, I want to go back to some of the points you made. You know, because some of the most common questions that we received from, you know, from people on social media in preparation for this, you know, first was how many people experiencing it? And, you know, in hearing that, that reality of most people are going to experience something, just because that’s, that’s just part of that hormonal regulation that happens. And, you know, hopefully people are talking to their doctor and are a little bit prepared for it. But I would imagine, I don’t know, but I would imagine, that even when you know that’s a possibility, or when you know that that’s likely, it can still throw people off when they maybe haven’t experienced that. You know, the other thing of, you know, that was- some of the questions that came up, was how can we, how can we be more proactive about it, and I, and I appreciate that idea, of, if possible, right, and, you know, if you have the resources and availability to start building a relationship with a therapist, because I know- You know, in my own personal mental health journey, it took me a little longer to go, maybe longer than I would want now, right, to go, oh, I think I need to see a therapist. And I would, I would imagine, so I want to sort of check this observation, that, you know, when people are in the situation of taking care of this, this new child, that there’s this other layer on it that’s different than if I was just experiencing anxiety on my own, or depression on my own. And that’s like that guilt or that sense of failure. I mean, I’ve heard that from friends and family members, of, you know, not just what’s, you know, what’s wrong with me, but that, that I’m failing because I am experiencing this. I am failing, because I can’t take care of this. And so what you know, you know, what, in addition to being proactive about, you know, educating yourself, and maybe seeking out therapy, what are some other strategies? So if you are the new, the new birthing parent, what are some other things that would be good practices, or even mindsets or things for people to do to prepare? And then we can talk about what are the coping and support strategies when they’re in it?

Jessie Everts 23:55
Yeah. I think- and my book is very mindfulness-based, because that has been something that’s really been helpful for me, is that one of those- or that kind of situations that most new parents experience is this feeling of being in survival mode, of like, not being very present, but just sort of getting through all the things, checking the boxes, when did the baby last eat, you know, like, all of, all of those things. How much sleep did I get last night, like, getting through the day, which is a very not present feeling. You’re just sort of, you might not take a full deep breath, or drink a glass of water in that state, you’re just kind of trying to get through it. So I have found mindfulness is what works best for me to sort of take myself out of that for moments at a time, and maybe more and more as you, you know, kind of advance in your parenting journey and get better at kind of recognizing when you need to do that and when you’re- and that it’s not possible all the time, but sometimes to sort of recognize, oh, I’m in my survival mode. I haven’t, you know, been taking care of myself right now, and I need to take a break to do that. But, so I think part of mindfulness being recognizing what feelings, thoughts, emotions, sensations you’re having, without judgment, right? Like, that’s a skill that not everybody, not everybody pays attention to or tries to develop. And I think that is really pivotal to all kinds of mental health cases. Is recognizing, like, I’m having a feeling, whether that’s something positive, or something that I like to feel, or not. And if I- if it’s an unpleasant feeling, that’s not, let’s not judge it and say, like, I shouldn’t be feeling this way, there’s something wrong with me if I’m feeling this way, but just to say it’s a feeling, and it’s not- there’s no moral failing that causes that feeling. It’s- it’s a product of all the- all the context around you and everything that’s going on with you. And it’s, it’s a signal to you to take care of something, likely, if it’s an unpleasant feeling. It’s sort of a, like, let’s slow down and figure out what I need in this moment, not a “What’s wrong with me?” kind of response. And I think that- that alone, just sort of taking a different stance toward your feelings, and thoughts, that are, you know, to sort of not judge them, but to say like, okay, what is this telling me about myself? Makes it a lot easier then to see asking for help as not a weakness, and not a failure, but just this is something I need some help with. This is just something that I can’t figure out how to deal with myself, you know?

Sarah Noll Wilson 26:21

Jessie Everts 26:22
Which there’s nothing wrong with that.

Sarah Noll Wilson 26:23
Yeah, I mean- and I haven’t- and I don’t think that I’ve- I don’t think on the show that I’ve gone into detail with my own, with my own experience with, in my situation, panic disorder. But, mindfulness, I’m convinced- good therapy, and mindfulness, was the thing that helped me the most, because I would fall into these patterns. You know, my therapists would call it grasping, I would fall into these patterns of- or my friend, Rachel Sheerin, would call them the “wishing pits.” I wish I didn’t have to deal with this. I wish I didn’t have to experience this. I wish I could just feel like I did before. I wish that I didn’t have to write. And every time I would grasp for this reality that wasn’t there anymore. It just made me feel worse, and didn’t help my, you know, didn’t help me in that moment, didn’t- and, you know, with anyone who’s had experience with either extreme anxiety or panic attacks, it’s a, it’s not fun. It’s very unsettling. And, and you’re right, I mean, it is, it really is a muscle, just like if you are building- building physical muscles, and you’re doing reps every single day, it is a practice that needs to be developed. And especially what I found, is it has to, well, not that it has to be, but I found that when I could develop it either in the quiet or calm moments, it made it easier for me to tap into when things were hard, when they felt out of control, when the waves were crashing. And, you know, and I say this, and I realized that I’ve gotten away from my practice, and I can tell that that’s impacted me. And so I really appreciate that, instead of, instead of the default or the, you know, the thought of, oh, there’s something wrong with me, or perhaps like in my experience, like, I wish I didn’t have to deal with this, to realize that it was, it’s a signal, I love that language. And I wrote that down, that it’s a signal for you to know that you- there’s something you need to take care of, is quite beautiful, and again, can imagine and appreciate that when you’re so focused on child, and so focused on, you know, I’ve seen those first few weeks, few months, where it is just we just need to keep this thing alive, and not thinking about yourself, or feeling guilty, I mean, I think that that moms guilt is, you know, or the parent guilt is is incredibly palpable. Sometimes, like, people feel guilty. I find that sometimes when it comes up in conversations, whether it’s with, you know, just conversations with clients, or friends, it’s almost like they feel guilty about the guilt. And then it just becomes this spiral for them.

Jessie Everts 29:22
Yeah, yeah. And let’s- guilt is just a feeling, just like anything else. Just like, you know, sadness, or anger, or- so it’s not, there’s nothing wrong with feeling guilty. And we- I think we kind of have this idea that like, I should never feel guilty, but again, “shoulds” are, like, are never true. They’re probably always a signal that your expectation, the expectations you’re putting on yourself are from somewhere else, and from not, you know, it’s something that’s not helpful to you.

Sarah Noll Wilson 29:48
Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait. I mean, you’re like, you’re rushing past that. But I mean, I know that there’s a lot of people who are listening to this who “should” all over themselves, right, you know, and so say that again. So “shoulds” are almost never true, and they’re usually assigned. Finish that last part again.

Jessie Everts 30:04
Well, they’re- they’re a sign, again, to pay attention to something, right? Like, that, okay, so I’m feeling guilty that I need some time to myself, because I feel like I should love being a mom, and want to do it all the time, and want to be around my baby all the time, right? And so, what that tells me is it’s important for me- that that’s an important thing to me, is to know that I care about my baby, and that I- but also that it’s okay to need the time to myself, right? So, so the message in the guilt that says you should never need time to yourself because you should love- because loving your baby is like, the opposite of that. Right? So, you can argue with that “should,” right? Like, recognizing in a guilt feeling, there’s probably a message of is the “should” true? Probably not, right? Like, is that saying that I am not a human, or I, like, don’t have the feelings that I have, or that there’s something wrong with the feelings that I have? Instead, is there a different way to interpret it that’s like, I love this baby. But I also need time to myself, and that’s okay.

Sarah Noll Wilson 31:02
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it’s the, like, the land of complexity, of multiple things can be true. I can, I can love you. And I can need space. And I can want to- and I can feel, you know, happiness that you’re here, and sadness for how things have changed. It’s- I mean, that’s something that- I’mma look at my- the list of questions that came up, because a number, a number of people talked about that, and, you know, and one person even said, you know, how do you, how do you not feel selfish as you transition to this new, exciting, difficult yet draining, venture? Is so powerful. One thing, you know, one thing, I mean, there’s, there’s a number of questions that I want to explore with you. So first, a number of people shared that their, their non birthing parent, partner, also had moments of experiencing stress. And so- talk to- so I- this- I don’t know, I mean, I understand the stress, the lack of sleep, but I don’t know if are there also hormonal changes because of the, like, you know, in the non birthing parents because of the changes of the things, so talk to us about how does it- One, it’s- I mean, obviously, it’s more than just, it affects more than the birthing parent. But so talk to us about what that looks like, and what people can, you know, just expect, because, again, sometimes we just think solely the person who, who’s the birthing parent.

Jessie Everts 32:43
Yeah, right. So, yeah, these like perinatal mood and anxiety disorders affect about one in five birthing people, but also one in 10 partners, right? So like, about half the amount, but still a significant amount of partners, are going to have postpartum- what might be identified as postpartum depression, it’s probably not going to be labeled that by a medical or mental health professional, because you’re not, you weren’t the one that carried the baby, but, but depression or anxiety during that postpartum phase, which, to me, says there’s- the hormonal piece is one big thing for the birthing partner, but I think- and it- there probably are some kind of like, synchronous mirror-neuron kind of like, hormonal change for the partner-

Sarah Noll Wilson 33:22
That’s what I was wondering about.

Jessie Everts 33:23
-just from being along that journey with them. But I think the other part is this, like, sort of existential change that happens after you have a baby and you become a parent, when this, that wasn’t a role that you had before, and just sort of a whole different lifestyle and kind of, yeah, way of thinking about yourself and way of thinking about yourself in the world, I think all of that can take a toll and, and kind of feed into feelings, both of depression or sort of just not knowing where that where you fit or what what how this new role fits for you, is sometimes what I think the depression might look like, or anxiety and there truly are a lot of things to worry about with a new baby. So I think that often people who have postpartum anxiety birthing people or partners often feel like well, I’m, I can’t not feel nervous about these things. It’s very justified and I can’t stop, I- there’s- it would be dangerous for me to not feel anxious about all of these things. So I think there’s a little added layer of stigma about postpartum anxiety and that we sort of expect that we should be worried about all these things, and it would be you know, unsafe not to be so I think you’re even less likely to talk about that in terms of with their doctor or with their mental health professional just because it’s sort of like well, of course I’m going to be worried this baby is helpless and rivulet relying on me for life but yeah, but yeah, I think that that equally affects the partner, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson 34:49
Yeah. What- Yeah, actually a friend of mine who recently had multiples, she shared about how her husband had a pretty significant sort of stress episode. I mean, they’ve just, in the last month, brought them all home, and they’re navigating all of this. I’m sure- I can only imagine what the fatigue is like. One thing, one thing that I’m curious about, is, and, you know, part of this came up from a question, but part of it is I’m making some connections to people in my life, and, right, like, things that I observed. And now I’m looking at it differently just through our conversation, so I really appreciate this. But is- you know, because you mentioned that basically anytime after you have a child, right, you’re in that postpartum stage, and I know that, you know, one person shared- a Jillian shared, she said she experienced- when she started to wean her child, and experienced some of those hormonal shifts, and also, I think some of that relational- relationship shifts of the baby needing her in a different way. But she made, and I wanted to quote her, “It made me less likely to speak out loud or to seek help, because I felt like my kids were too old for it to count.”

Jessie Everts 36:01
Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that- untrue, and hopefully the medical profession- I think the medical profession kind of plays into all of this, because so much of checkups after you have a baby are all about the baby, right? They kind of contributed to “the baby is the important piece” there, and only now are we making some headway, in OBGYN’s asking at that first appointment postnatal, “How are you feeling?” and a little bit about your mood, and doing some check in with parents about how they’re feeling, but I think that, yeah, so much- then it becomes about your child, and then it becomes, you know, as your child grows I do think there’s this idea of like, well, this can’t be about that, anymore. But it’s still important to talk about and still important to address. And it, honestly, doesn’t really matter to a mental health professional whether it’s postpartum, or just a period of depression, whenever that is in your life, right? And we, and you can maybe trust the mental health professional that we’re going to tease that out, and help you, like, figure out the pieces, and it very well might be related to birth or postpartum, even two or three years later. And so that’s okay, it’s okay to always, any time in your life, but especially any time after you have kids, I think reach out and say I’m struggling with some stuff, and I don’t know where it comes from, or what it’s related to, but, but yeah, that’s part of the gig that we do as therapists, is to try to help figure that out. And, and another thing that happens after you have kids, is all kinds of stuff from your own childhood, or parenting- being parented experience comes back around.

Sarah Noll Wilson 37:37

Jessie Everts 37:37
And it’s like, either things you haven’t thought about for years and years, or things that you never really struggled with, but now you don’t have a model for how to do it differently, I mean, so sort of, if you experienced parenting that’s not the kind of parenting style you want to have, there’s this, you know, sort of inadequacy of like, how do I- don’t know any other way, but I know it- that wasn’t good. You know, and so there’s all kinds of family of origin stuff that comes up after you have a baby, and kids too.

Sarah Noll Wilson 38:02
I- that’s really fascinating, and makes so much sense. And I could also- I mean, I’ve just never, I mean, obviously, I haven’t thought about it, because I haven’t had that experience. But, you know, I can also imagine that could bring up some either processed or unprocessed trauma at the same time of, you know, of perhaps grieving what you didn’t have. Or processing it. And so, you know, like, how, how common is it? Because some, I mean, sometimes I’ve experienced where, when it was a really hard first year or two, right, either because the, you know, maybe the baby was colicky, or there was other health challenges, that- just, you know, I’m just speaking, anecdotally, as an observation, is that you can see, I can- I feel like I can observe sometimes the long term effects or ripple of that. And so I’m curious to know, just, you know, what is that- I don’t even know what my question is, but just, you know, if somebody, if somebody goes through, say, an intense period, whether that’s, you know, trauma from the birthing experience, whether that’s experiencing, you know, intense postpartum depression, or postpartum anxiety, you know, what does that look like? Because, again, I think it- I mean, it goes back to this point of there’s not a timeframe, it’s not, it’s not like, oh, your kid is six months. Suck it up, you’re good. Like, this is it, because I mean, I mean, I see patterns in some people that I, you know, no one loved. That it’s like, it’s still there. It’s still lingering, and, and something that they, you know, still need to, like continue to navigate and be really intentional about.

Jessie Everts 39:54
Yeah. You said the word grieving and I think that is probably, I think everybody in parenthood grieves something, right? Like, sort of either that, like, person that you used to be before you had kids to worry about, and they had this other layer of responsibility. I think that’s a really common experience, to sort of experience that kind of grief at different times, right? Like, at sort of, at periods throughout when your kids are growing up. So not just postpartum, but throughout, and other kinds of grief, too, about, yeah, that sort of a memory that comes up when your child is the same age as you were when something happened. Right? That- so we’re kind of always experiencing waves of grief in parenthood, as in, as in life, I think, as we’re sort of recognizing what may have happened to us that we didn’t necessarily see as harmful in the moment, but left lasting impacts. But, yeah, I think that that’s a really common experience, and, right, that doesn’t come up all in the first year, you, you sort of don’t know when it’s going to come up, or when it’s going to be important to talk about.

Sarah Noll Wilson 40:51
Yeah, and I, I mean, I can see that as I see, you know, my- I lovingly call them my “niblings,” but my nieces and nephews, hitting different milestones too, right? And what that, what that brings up either for my my sisters, or my in-laws, and, and navigating that, or, you know, or family, or friends who have children who are going through that. What, you know, one of the things that I want to make sure we give space to, is how, how can those of us, you know, and we can, maybe we can tease this out of those of us who might have intimate, more intimate close relationships with parents versus those of us who may not be as intimate, but maybe we work together with colleagues, maybe we’re somebody’s manager or boss. You know, what are the ways in which we can support them? And, and I’m curious to look at that sort of through the, like- so I’m going to go down further. So, just follow my train of thinking. If we are observing changes and behavior, changes and emotions, that maybe they aren’t comfortable, like, acknowledging, maybe they aren’t acknowledging, what are- what are the best ways to support somebody that you might have an inkling, I think that this is more than just the, you know, the two week baby blues. What are some strategies we can use?

Jessie Everts 42:17
Yeah, well, I think, I mean, first, is not being scared to ask the question, “How are you feeling?” and letting there be a real answer, right? And sort of wading through the, “Oh, I’m fine,” or “Everything is good,” right? Like, and sort of saying, well, yeah, how are you? I know, it’s a really hard time. And it’s, you know, lots of going on after you have a baby, and so, like, opening the door for there to be more is what is probably the most important thing, right? Because-

Sarah Noll Wilson 42:43
I love that language.

Jessie Everts 42:44
Because the person who’s struggling with something is looking for cues from the person asking. Are you, are you really okay with my real answer, or not, right? And we are very tuned into that and other people as like, do they want the perfunctory like, “Yep, I’m good, let’s get on with our meeting,” kind of thing, or are they really asking? Are they really interested and open to the answer? And I think for the person asking, the worry in asking that is often like, well, I won’t know what to do with the answer, right? Like, well, what if we say they’re really struggling? Then what? Like, so relieving for yourself some, and this is with all mental health, you don’t have to fix it, right? Like, asking about it and caring about it does not mean that it’s yours to fix or to solve, and that person knows that, and that person’s not asking you to do that. So opening the door for somebody to give a real answer to that question is just that, right? And just that alone is valuable to sort of be a person that people know you can give a real answer to, and say a little bit about what you’re feeling, right? Because just that and especially in the postpartum period, but always, I think, just knowing that- who you can talk to about things, relieves so much of the pressure and that idea of “there’s something wrong with me,” that alone is therapeutic, is valuable to be able to say to somebody, you know, “I’m struggling with sleep,” or like, “Just let me vent a little bit about, like, yeah, we’re having trouble feeding the baby, and so, yeah, it’s been stressful.” That- being able to say that to somebody, is helpful.

Sarah Noll Wilson 44:13
Yeah, there- I really love all of that, and, you know, as a, as a mental health advocate myself who is often working with leaders from a standpoint of how can they be more emotionally supportive- but not just leaders, I mean, that was- that, again, that was part of my experience, was, you know, the two big things I learned, is one, I didn’t know how to take care of my mental health, and other people didn’t know how to support me others- they didn’t know how to support me, as well, even though maybe they had really good intentions. And that language of, you know, how can we open the door for more and I really appreciated when you said, “People are constantly people are looking for cues that I can share the real answer.” And this is- and I think that so many people- again, what I experience in my own world, would never imagine that they would be somebody who somebody couldn’t be safe with, and yet, right, there’s lots of things we do, whether we unintentionally dismiss, whether we, you know, jump to the hyper positivity, or the toxic positivity, it’s, you know, and the thing that’s coming up for me, is in our work, we do a lot around the immunity to change, which sort of invites us to look at what are we doing, or not doing, that’s getting in the way? And so, you know, for people who are listening, who are going, oh, no, no, no, I’m somebody they can be real with, I would lovingly invite you to go, when is that true, and when is it not? And what are the- and what could you maybe do more of? And also that point of- ’cause this is something we hear from people a lot, like, I’m not, I’m not their therapist, Sarah, I’m not their- you know, I’ll hear this from managers, like, I’m not their therapist. I’m like, no, you shouldn’t be, good. Thank you for recognizing that. That is actually very effective for you to know that. But asking about it and caring about it doesn’t mean you have to fix it, and-

Jessie Everts 46:11
Right, yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson 46:12
Yeah. No, I love all of that.

Jessie Everts 46:14
Yeah. And I think, you know, even just recognizing, and I think the culture around this is changing, but recognizing that a birth, even if everything goes well, like, it is still a pretty, like, physically traumatic thing. But also, it’s a big deal. I think like, setting that expectation for workplace, or for an employer, instead of just like, well, that’s something you do on your own time, and then you come back to work six weeks later and you’re good, right? Like that, like, recognizing this as a, there’s a lot of trauma, but also a lot of feelings. But also, I think, you know, how we’ve gotten better at supporting someone in the workplace, if they are grieving a loss or recovering from a physical illness, all that applies here as well, right? Like, that- all of that comes in. So it’s not just so like, hey, you’re good, right? Like, come back to work. It’s like, what do you need? How are you doing? What are the some of the things that are changing for you? How can we support you at work and not just expecting that a birth is a non issue, you know, and sort of redefining it and saying, well, we’ve gotten really good at being supportive of other types of events, life events that people experience while they’re working, but this is one where it’s okay to bring in some of those same skills and tools to sort of say, like, things aren’t going to need to be different. Because another thing that a new parent struggles with, is feeling like they’re not going to be as good at their jobs and feeling like everybody sees that, that like, their boss is certainly going to pick up on the fact that their attention isn’t fully there, and that they might not be able to be as productive as they were before having a child, and that that makes them worse at their job, when in fact, it doesn’t, it just means you have a more understanding of the complexity of the world. And probably that makes you better at your job in a lot of ways. But so if, if a supervisor-

Sarah Noll Wilson 48:08
I love all that.

Jessie Everts 48:08
-if a supervisor then can say that, can say, like, I recognize this is going to change things for you at work, so like, what do you need? Do you need time to pump, and how can we find ways for you to do that? What, you know, is the meeting schedule gonna need to change, like, be proactive about that, and don’t wait for the birthing person to- or the partner to tell you that, you know, oh, I can’t make that meeting, right? You know, I’m gonna need to change my schedule. Like, let’s assume that some of that’s going to need to change.

Sarah Noll Wilson 48:40
I feel like, I feel like when I think about my, when I think about my work experience pre owning my own company, there- It’s not that- not that it was, well, I mean, a couple of patterns, right, that typically, the other people in the office who had experienced being the birthing parent had a lot more empathy and understanding perhaps than like, sometimes people who were partners, and in, in a lot of times, people are just so eager for the person to get back. Because, you know, there’s been a burden on the workplace, potentially. And again, because I think, well, everyone, you know, like people have kids, this is what happens, it’s very transactional, and even, and even though it’s so common, that doesn’t take away from the exhaustion, the trauma, the needs of the individual person, and so I appreciate that practice. And also, I mean, this is a really good way of thinking about being a more inclusive leader, is to be proactive, to not wait, and to anticipate some of that, I mean, and that, that to me is- would show a sign of safety, of, right, thoughtfulness. It would certainly likely deepen trust, because people would feel empathy, like, that their manager was being empathetic towards them, and cared for them, and was thinking about them. I also I, I mean, I had a reaction when he said it, but you know, that idea of, you know, it- and it expands people’s perspectives and expands their understanding of the complexity of humans. I mean, this is, I feel like this is, everything we’re about is how do we help people understand the complexity of humans, that we don’t fit in this four box model of I’m a cat, and you’re a dog, and here’s what you need to know. You know, like, that’s not what we’re, we’re into. And, yeah, because- I don’t know, there’s just- there’s a lot that’s coming up for me, and it’s so simple, what you’re saying, is, you know, it’s not, it’s not just the policies, but it’s being proactive about, you know, being flexible where you can, thinking about them when they come back. And I know when, when working with people who maybe did come back, I mean, one of the things I was super aware of, is there was a lot of loss for them. You know, especially in American culture, we don’t have good maternity or paternity leave, we don’t, you know, if you, if you’re fortunate enough to work for a company, great, but the vast majority of people don’t. So they’re having to come back way quicker. And that, then that brings up some stuff too, right. But there’s, there’s often so much loss, and just like, I’m gonna miss out, and I miss them. And I, you know, all of this.

Jessie Everts 51:37
Yeah, yeah, in the US, we usually, I mean, the typical leave is about six weeks, unpaid. Six weeks is also when you’re estimated to be physically recovered from the birth, right, like so that- and just barely. And in my experience, well, if anything went wrong, or there was a C section, a surgery, or anything like that, you’re going back to work when you’re not physically recovered. And so I think to recognize- and you’re also not sleeping, and you’re probably not going to sleep well for a good amount of time that you’re back at work. So just sort of adjusting self expectations, but also if that’s reflected in the workplace, that it’s okay, that we all understand that something might need to change here. And that, and that, you know, it’s not even- the birthing partner is going to feel like it’s, I’m not at my best, and I don’t know if I’m ever gonna get back to my best, and that is what everybody’s seeing, so they’re really, you know, self conscious of like, how am I showing my worth, even if I, you know, I’m tired, and not on top of my game, and needing to take breaks and all of that. But yeah, if that can sort of be recognized, you’re maybe not even ready to come back yet, but here you are, right? Like- And the other part of it for so many, myself included, was I really wanted to go back to work. And I really, like, got a lot of meaning out of my identity as a working person. And so I, there was a lot of excitement to go back to work, but also, but also the other part of like, no, I’m leaving my child with somebody else in childcare, and, and being away from them for the day, and all of that. So there’s a lot of dissonance happening in a person who even really identifies and loves their job, but that it’s a hard shift to make, and it’s a hard- so if anything can be done to even ease that shift, I think, also, remote work has been a life changer for parents. But, you know, both to be able to be home with their child, and maybe ease the childcare burden, but also worry about baby’s health, and exposure, and things like that. So if there’s any way to offer some flexibility in terms of someone returning to work after a birth, offer it, and, you know, make that available to somebody, because it really changes- it changes everything. And it changes how you think about your work, for sure.

Sarah Noll Wilson 53:54
Yeah, yeah, that’s what- I mean, that’s what I was thinking about, is not only does it serve, serve the person and serve their relationships, but it serves the relationship that they have with you. It’s, you know, we, in our world, I think we’ve often will be like we’re not curing cancer, folks, literally nothing we’re doing is more important than taking care of your, your loved ones, taking care of yourself, and so how do we, how do we prioritize this? What, you know, I want to be really thoughtful of time. And- but there’s, I mean, I have, like, a whole list, but we’re just gonna have to have you back another time. You know, what, what else would you want to make sure that people are either thinking about in care of themselves, or in care of other people, related to this time of their lives?

Jessie Everts 54:42
Yeah, I mean, I think of the three S’s for new parents, but probably for anyone. Self care is one that we’ve talked about already, sort of remembering that you’re also important in your life to take care of. And so other people encouraging that, reminding a new parent or birthing person to take care of themselves, and bringing them the glass of water, and, you know, all of those things. Self compassion is the other, and that gets to that feeling of not judging yourself for how difficult it is, and sort of recognizing that, yeah, everybody has a hard time, and you’re just one of those people, and, and what’s difficult for you, you know, is there are other things that come more naturally to you, and all of it’s okay. And that that’s also a practice and something that you might need to get better at if you’ve not done that already, done that work already. And then support is the other one, and sort of for the birthing people, I talk about working through some of the barriers you put up, to accepting support, and allowing for support, and seeing that that’s okay to need help, and not to have to do everything by yourself. But for the people who are supports, to be thinking about that, and maybe asking about that, even beforehand. How can I be supportive? Some people want visitors after the baby’s born, some people don’t, some people really need just another adult to talk to, and some people, you know, just want to get a cup of coffee once a week, or, you know, like, whatever that person’s going to need. And what you can offer, you know, is helpful and to be sort of thinking about that, and offering that proactively, and most new parents that I work with who even have trouble accepting support, are going to know that they need, they’re going to reach a point when they can’t not take this, the help and the support, so if there are people lined up, and people who have offered, that stays in your mind, and that really means something, I think, so.

Sarah Noll Wilson 56:33
Yeah, no, it’s the- something I’ve been trying to work on, is trying to offer specific things, and ask “Would that be helpful?” Like, would it be helpful if I brought over food? Or would it be helpful if I just came and watched them, or I mean, or to your point, and a lot of my friends are like this, I just want to have an adult conversation. They just want to sort of be reminded of this other part of myself that I feel is lost a bit. You know, I love this role, and I feel a little lost in it. This is such good, and such important information. And, you know, and you pointed out a number of times that a lot of what we’ve talked about can apply to any mental health situation. As you know, as we wrap up our time, there’s always a question I ask, so I’d love to hear from you. You know, since we- this whole show is about just how do we change the conversations with ourselves and with other people, what is a conversation you’ve had with yourself or with someone else that transformed you?

Jessie Everts 57:36
Oh, man. Oh, man, there’s so many, it’s hard to just think about one. But I think maybe because of the pandemic, a conversation I had with myself, maybe not early enough on, I wish I had had it with myself earlier, but a little bit later on when I recognized like, I can’t do all this. I can’t be a full time parent, be caring for my children all day, be working, being a therapist and responsible for a lot of other people’s emotional health, and holding it all, and I wasn’t feeling like- I was certainly probably telling myself I wasn’t doing a good job in any of those roles. So I had to sort of have this conversation about like, it’s okay, like, make the goals smaller, and make the measures of success much smaller, like, did we get outside today? Are the kids still alive at bedtime? Did I do the one important work meeting that I needed to get to, right? Like, bringing the expectations way down, and we probably all have needed to do that during the pandemic, but I think for me, I had to do it consciously. I had to say, like, you are in a global pandemic, no one has needed to parent through this before. Like, we are gonna figure out your own way to do it, and it’s okay if it’s different from everybody else. And we didn’t have time to talk about social media, but that’s such a toxic place for new parents. That they see everybody else is doing it so much better than them, and all the curated images of kids and happy moms, and clean houses-

Sarah Noll Wilson 58:59
Yeah, just like that like, Pinterest, like, the Pinterest, you know, birthday parties, and like-

Jessie Everts 59:03
Ugh, yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson 59:04
-are they loved?

Jessie Everts 59:05
Yeah. It’s a hard place, and I think that has exacerbated during the pandemic, because you weren’t seeing a lot of real world, other houses, other households, other experiences. You were seeing those kind of curated images of how everybody else was doing. and so yeah, just that feeling of like, it’s okay to just do less in all your roles, and be okay with that.

Sarah Noll Wilson 59:25
Mhm. I think we all could use that from time to time, of just, you know, how do we, how do we just bring expectations way down, and be okay that this is where we are? Yeah, this has been such a, this has been such a treat on multiple levels my dear, my dear old friend, and you brought so much insight and wisdom. For people who want to connect with you, or who are interested in checking out your books, what- where- what- Where is the best place for them to connect with you to get your resources?

Jessie Everts 59:57
Well, the book is available anywhere you buy books. It’s called “Brave New Mom.” And there’s also a website associated with that, which is Brave New Mom dot org. And then my professional website is Empower Mental Health dot org, and that’s got kind of more information about all the different, different roles and different things that I’ve done.

Sarah Noll Wilson 1:00:16
Beautiful. I will share those in the show notes. And for people who are listening, who are interested, we, you know, one of the things we’ve started is book giveaways. So if you are listening to this, and you’re interested in a copy of either your book “Brave New Mom,” or you have the workbook on loneliness, which I think is really- timely in a time of just what feels like constant isolation, even when you’re around people, there feels like there’s barriers here that weren’t here before. Send us an email at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com, and the first few people who reach out to us will get a copy of those books. Miss. Not Miss- Doctor, because let’s honor-

Jessie Everts 1:00:54
Thank you.

Sarah Noll Wilson 1:00:54
I’m all about honoring the work. Jessie Everts, thank you so much for the work that you do. Thank you for everything you bring to the world, and being willing to share it with all of us today, so thank you.

Jessie Everts 1:01:05
Yeah, thanks so much for having me. It was wonderful.

Sarah Noll Wilson 1:01:09
Our guest this week has been Dr. Jessie Everts, and it was such, on multiple levels, such a treat for me personally to reconnect with her after all of these years, but also personally, there’s a lot that I’m leaving with. The one that I’m thinking about and chewing on, is that idea when she said “And when people are struggling, they’re looking for cues, that they can give you the real answer.” And I’m just continuing to reflect on that, to think of how else can I make sure I show up in a way that people feel safe to give me the real answers. So, just a huge thank you to Dr. Jessie Everts, and also a big thank you to everyone else who submitted questions to help guide and shape this conversations. You know, Nick and I, we were talking that we just scratched the surface, so we will definitely look to have her back. And so we want to hear from you. We want to hear what resonated for you, what came up for you during this conversation. You can do that in a couple of ways, you can always send us an email at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. You also can send me a DM, they’re always open, on all social media platforms. And if you’d like to learn more about the work that we do, you can check us out at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. And you can also pick up a copy of my latest book, “Don’t Feed the Elephants!” wherever books are sold. And if you’ve been with us a while, or if you’ve just joined us and are appreciating the conversations that we’re having and the work we’re trying to do, please consider supporting us. You can do this through a variety of ways. First is you can become a patron, which supports the show financially, you can go to Patreon dot com slash Conversations on Conversations. Also please rate, and review, and subscribe to the show. The more reviews we get, the more- the higher the ratings, the more we can bring on excellent guests like Dr. Jessie Everts. And I just want to give a huge thanks to our incredible team who makes this podcast possible. To our producer, Nick Wilson, our sound editor, Drew Noll, our transcriptionist, Olivia Reinert, our marketing consultant, Kaitlyn Summitt-Nelson, and the rest of the SNoWco crew. And just a wholehearted, final thank you to our guest, Dr. Jessie Everts, as we explore this very important topic of parenting and mental health. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you so much for listening, for giving us your time and your energy, and remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. Thank you all so much. Please make sure you rest, make sure you rehydrate, and we will see you next week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai


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