Why (And How) Workplace Cultures Should Reward Vulnerability

Hi everyone. Theresa here from Team Sarah Noll Wilson joined by my friend and fabulous thought partner, Brandon Springle. Brandon, welcome to this episode of let’s just talk about some stuff and set it out into the world.

Thank you. I’m very excited about this approach. This is going to be fun.

I think so too. Friends, if you don’t know Brandon, he’s very active on LinkedIn. Brandon, tell the good people listening or watching how they can find you on LinkedIn.

Dr. Teresa Peterson:

Friends, if you don’t know Brandon yet, things I love about him, tremendous mind, tons of connections. Super well read, super good heart. I would dare say an expert, my friend, which is not a word I throw around often in psychological safety and very experienced in all things hr. Is there anything else you want people to know about you? My friend, before we jump in,

Just from a cultural perspective, culture’s everywhere and just trying to elevate, enhance, inform, and really just listen and check in on people. Wherever I go, wherever we go, that should be the objective because you never know what somebody’s going through, what somebody’s dealing with. So just putting a little bit more kindness out into the world is really key.

We were not going to talk about this, but as you said it, it made me think of the intentionality of asking people how they’re doing or checking in, and that adorable Elmo post that just went viral. Elmo checking to see how his friends were, and it turned out millions of grownups wanted to tell Elmo how they were feeling, so never underestimate checking on someone. I don’t know if anyone else saw that, but it warmed my heart. I’d love to tell Elmo how I’m doing today.

I used to tell Elmo when I was smaller and Elmo were very close.

There’s just so much to love about him. What we actually were going to talk about today, Sarah and Brandon and I, friends at home, we’re having a chat. This is not new, but we’re certainly seeing more of it. We’re seeing leaders who are really putting a lot of best practices into place in terms of being collaborative, in terms of being excellent listeners, in terms of creating spaces for lots of voice and lots of hands to work on many things and the perceptions of them that are not great perceptions of them may be being weak because they’re not. Now I’m going to use quotes, air quotes, so if you’re listening, leading out in front or they’re not commanding enough, that word made me cringe a little just saying it. Maybe you heard it in my voice, but we were saying this isn’t new, but we’ve been seeing more of it. So Brandon, what’s coming up for you? When you think about leaders exhibiting these great characteristics who are sometimes either not being recognized for leading in this way or in some cases are being punished. We’ve had some cases lately where folks have been demoted or they’ve been criticized and felt like they weren’t fitting in, that there were some negative impacts on them. What comes up for you as you hear this?

Sure. So the definition of psychological safety that I’m most comfortable with and that I’m most familiar with and that I like the best is a culture that rewards vulnerability. And I think when you understand what it means to reward vulnerability, then you start to get after what might be at the root of this because there are cultures that also punish vulnerability. And so reading the four stages from Dr. Clark and navigating that definition and then looking and seeing what’s going on in the world, I start to draw and connect those dots to say when that happens, people don’t understand what it requires. So from a courage perspective, that’s something that should be rewarded. So when somebody is courageous enough to say, Hey, let’s do this in a different way, let’s make this human-centric, we’ll get to the results, but let’s do that through empowering people, not running over people. And you can do things in different ways, but that’s kind of what it brings to my mind on the front end.

Yeah, I love that you used this word courageous because I think sometimes the story that is told about people doing things a little differently or the story told about things that don’t maybe look how they’ve always looked, and I’m kind of using my sassy body language about it, is people don’t see that as courageous or authentic or human-centered. They see it and they put labels on it like it is weak. It is less than that. The wrong people are in charge or in control. There’s a real misunderstanding there and the labels are harmful. And I’m thinking of the folks and the situations we’ve been seeing recently, I feel like the people with more power and authority in the organization have labeled that as ineffective as it’s too different, it’s weak and it’s been really detrimental. But I love that you used the word courageous. Yeah,

Well, I mean people might think it’s fluffy, right? Because this terminology like psychological safety or being human centered, it might make people think that, Hey, we want to see you in your comfort and comfort zone is a place that people sometimes live, but they shouldn’t stay there. You move out of comfort into fear. You definitely don’t want to live in fear, but fear visits every single one of us, you move out of fear and you go into the learning zone. That’s really where you start to feel safe. You can ask questions, you can make some mistakes. You’re just not trying to make the same mistakes over and over. But once you get into a good place with learning, then you start to move in this place of growth, right? This place of growth and understanding and starting to elevate and really make an impact. But there has to be performance standards and clarity on what is the outcome, and I’ll help you get there how you get to the outcome. There’s not just one way to do it. And the traditional command and control style is really focused on let’s get the results really at any cost. And now there’s a model that says, let’s get the results, but let’s empower. Let’s delegate with responsibility to others to get that done. And that leadership style does not look familiar to many. And when people get under pressure and stress, they generally go back to what they’re comfortable with.

As you were saying, that something that I always think about. We are very comfortable with standards of physical safety in the workplace, OSHA best practice, get your goggles on and your hearing protection and people are very comfortable with that. And then you say psychological safety and it takes people back a little bit. And I love how you’re connecting it to, it is about getting it done, it’s about learning, it’s about the collaboration, it’s about the growth for everyone. What’s your take? How do you respond to folks? I would say what Sarah and I most often hear is a misunderstanding that psychological safety means either that work isn’t getting done or there’s no accountability and we know that isn’t true, but how do you respond to that or how do you think about that through your mind?

Yeah, I mean psychological safety is really critical, but if you just have psychological safety and you don’t have the clear performance standard, then it’s not really safety because you might feel safe for a time, but if you’re not producing, you’re not performing, you’re not productive, then your safety will diminish quickly. So that’s my view on that is that you really need to have this on two different levels. You need to have the safety and then you have to have the standards and clarity on what is the mission, how do we best partner together, and is it a shared belief that we all understand collectively to drive in the right direction and have the debate? Because one person might say, well, from a psychological safety perspective, people never disagree. There’s no tension, and that’s just not true. It means you can have tension and it not be unhealthy or go unresolved, but it’s a tension of respect that we’re all trying to move in the right direction. Let’s have some candid debate to make sure that we’re hearing each other and the diverse perspectives that we each bring to the table.

That’s beautiful. Something that we talked about before we hopped on, and I’m going back to my notes, stand by everyone while I go back to my notes. We were talking about a couple things and one was an article on the perceptions of confidence of leaders. And something I love about you so much is you’re, gosh, you’re always reading, you’re always sharing really good stuff. So shout out if you want to follow one person who will consistently bring really solid things for you to learn and grow, go to my friend Brandon. But the article about perceptions of confidence, and I think the keyword is perception because it didn’t match what folks felt on the inside. And I think this ties to not only this idea that I can be doing some best practices for leadership. I can be doing best practices for psychological safety, and that might lead to a perception maybe of a lack of confidence, shine some light on what did you read, what stuck out for you and jump to any other recent thing you’ve read that feels really relevant to you, you’re the expert.

Well, this was around perceptions of CEOs and the CEOs were both male and female and that there was a perception that the female CEOs would have lower confidence, but in reality they actually scored higher in confidence in their male counterparts. And I read that recently, but I then went back in my time machine to 1978 and I thought about the first study around what we now know as imposter syndrome, but would in 1978, it was an imposter phenomenon of high achieving women. So that was the group that studied, but that got lost in history. So back then in 1978, it was a study on a group of high achievers, highly accomplished, and it was really just to say, even when you’re highly accomplished, you still kind of battle different things. But then the phenomenon turned into a syndrome and it started to have these connotations over the years.

And then it gets to an article like I was just reading, and it’s like, okay, there’s this expectation that there’s a confidence gap when the truth is that’s a false perception. And so we have to bring into history and into our view currently and connect all that together and say, okay, what did the original articles say? What are we seeing today? And then how do we actually bring truth to the subject? Because stereotypes begin to form, bias begins to form, vulnerability begins to get punished, and people start to mask qualities that actually would elevate a business if they would sense and see that it’s going to drive them in the right direction and move them forward even if they don’t quite understand what that looks like. But that’s the beauty of diversity and allowing people to be authentic and to be themselves as they showed up and as they came to be.

I think Brandon’s time machine needs to be its own thing of going back to the original research because that was something you and I chewed on a little was the percentage of the time the original work is maybe no one reads the whole thing. Maybe they intentionally take it out of context. Maybe they take one point of 10 points and run with it. And that’s something I know we want to do a good job of, and I know you’re committed to as well, is let’s get to the root of this because something that stuck out to me in that same piece of the phenomenon which is very different from a syndrome, is this idea, and I believe I’m recalling this right, but you help me if I am not part of it, was upbringing, that they hadn’t been nurtured to see themselves as intellectual or successful or capable.

And then some of that, well, that was the one main thing that stuck out to me was that it was all growing up and then it was like societal norms placed onto folks. And we can’t forget the role that that plays, especially in building psychological safety, that we’ve all learned a different playbook. We’ve all learned different rules. Maybe I’ve worked in a company where you wouldn’t dare speak up or that would shine the light on you and that would not be safe. And maybe you’re working in a company that’s the opposite, and then suddenly we’re paired together and we’re bringing two completely different sets of rules to the game. And that’s something I think people often take for granted is if you’re a company with a great culture and you’re hiring lots of folks, I’m thinking of everyone, all the turnover with covid, all the new people who joined and really with shorter tenure everywhere that’s more constant.

People were coming into healthy cultures with lots of unhealthy habits or unhealthy memories about how they interact and something that always stuck out to me, the people in the new culture that was very positive, often really underestimated how much time it would take people to learn the rules, to see the new norms, to feel welcomed into that system. This is not where we were going to go, but I love it. Okay, Brandon, this is my question for you, my friend. If you were thinking of just one or two things someone could do to kind of jumpstart psychological safety. Now I say this with caution because this work must be real. It is long-term, right? So it is no one listening should think this is the only thing they ever have to do. But if you are a person welcoming someone new onto your team, or I know so many organizations going through reorgs, what is one thing that folks could do right away to help jumpstart or set the tone for building psychological safety or making that person feel like we’re going to do some things differently and it’s going to be okay here. You’re going to be in good hands and we’re going to be in each other’s good hands.

Yeah. I think the best thing that one could do when welcoming a new team member really seek to understand what is the origin story? How did you come to be here? What are some things that were in your past that were really difficult and how did you overcome and navigate? Because when I think about the imposter syndrome, I think about terms I’m more aware of now, like gaslighting, how challenging must it be for someone to go through gaslighting that’s already dealing with this imposter phenomenon and doing great work. So just understanding where people came from, what they experienced, and leveraging those insights to create a culture with minimal triggers. I won’t say with no triggers, there are always some level of triggering, but let’s honor the story and the origin points that people show up with and let’s not put them in positions unnecessarily that don’t set them up for success. So I would say understanding where people came from, where they are currently and where they’re trying to go and spending time doing that will help you understand how you can best position them to be successful and move the organization forward.

I love everything about it. And the one thing that’s sticking out to me is I love the idea of having this conversation and I love the idea. Sometimes people hear conversation and they think it’s like four hours of their life, but this could be 15 minutes to start. This could be a very small amount of time that you build on consistently. Because the one thing I love about your suggestion of this origin story, we know that leaders often reward who are very similar to them, who have had very similar experiences, who think the same way they do, who have the same work habits, who look the same way they do. These are things we know about the world of work. And what I love about taking time to connect about that is breaking down some of that familiarity bias, right? Seeing people as whole people, not just going to your go-tos because you’re naturally talking more to them going to the group because you understand so much more about the group. That feels really good to me.

Yeah, finding the humanity before you start looking at the demographic differences. Just recognizing we have a shared humanity and that shared humanity allows me to bring you in understanding that you’re human and you’re not harmful. So we can have a safe conversation. We can create a space of bravery for you to really talk and I care about what you’re saying and I’m going to take what I hear to help cultivate and create a better environment for you because I care about you and I want you to be at your best.

Yeah, I love that you used the word cultivating because that’s such a good reminder. People we encounter and people we’ve probably been, I’ll speak for myself and probably for Sarah, I know her pretty well, but we’ve certainly been folks that want that easy fix, that one and done, or that like I told you, my intentions were good. Why can’t you believe it the first time I say it? And so I love this reframing of cultivating, it takes time. Some days you need water, and some days there’s too much water, right? It’s this very dynamic flow of tending to humans and to relationships. I think this is a beautiful place for us to stop sharing our humanity together. Do you have a final thought?

The only final thought I have is this really gardening. If you work plants, you understand plants move around to where the light is present. When you speak to plants positively, they rise up. When you talk negatively to plants, they kind of diminish and fall back. So just understand cultivation is a major key and tend that personal kind of garden that you have, but the people around you and plant those good seeds and nurture the soil and make sure the soil is always in a good place and a good position,

And know when it’s time to reach out for some fertilizer or a hand. Know when it’s time to give the garden rest. My friend, Brandon Springle, thank you for sharing your whole self with me and with our friends today to be continued.

Thank you.