Episode 008: A Conversation on Intentional Inclusion with Dr. Nika White

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and Dr. Nika White as they explore multiple facets of intentional inclusion.

About our guest

Dr. Nika White is a national authority and fearless advocate for diversity, equity, and inclusion. As an award-winning management and leadership consultant, keynote speaker, published author, and executive practitioner for DEI efforts across business, government, non-profit, and education, Dr. White helps organizations break barriers and integrate DEI into their business frameworks. Her work has led to designation by Forbes as a Top10 D&I Trailblazer. She is the founder of Nika White Consulting (NWC) where her firm works with organizations to identify and implement opportunities to embed DEI throughout its operations and culture. NWC is a diversity, equity, and inclusion boutique consulting firm with recognized authority on strategic diversity, intentional inclusion, and organizational effectiveness. Dr. White believes that “Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is not just a checkmark for good business, it’s a way to transform the world.” Over her 20+ years of leadership, Dr. White has worked with over 200 corporate, educational, government, and non-profit brands, managed over $200 million in business assets for her clients, and written two books on diversity, equity, and inclusion including, “The Intentional Inclusionist,®” and “Next Level Inclusionist: Transforming Your Work and Yourself for Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Success.” Dr. White’s third book, “Inclusion Uncomplicated: Essential Guide to Simplifying DEI” in partnership with ForbesBooks is scheduled to release fall of 2022. Dr. White has presented over 200 keynote speeches and presentations across the country on issues such as team engagement, organizational leadership, strategic diversity, race equity, and intentional inclusion. Dr. White’s talks bring a mixture of expertise, passion, vision, and authentic style to create holistic takeaways for audiences. The heart of Dr. White’s work addresses the ability to create transformative environments with intentionality around inclusion. She helps create professional spaces where people can collaborate through a lens of compassion, empathy, and understanding. Dr. Nika White is a national authority and fearless advocate for diversity, equity, and inclusion. As an award-winning management and leadership consultant, keynote speaker, published author, and executive practitioner for DEI efforts across business, government, non-profit, and education, Dr. White helps organizations break barriers and integrate DEI into their business frameworks. Her work has led to designation by Forbes as a Top10 D&I Trailblazer. She is the founder of Nika White Consulting (NWC) where her firm works with organizations to identify and implement opportunities to embed DEI throughout its operations and culture. NWC is a diversity, equity, and inclusion boutique consulting firm with recognized authority on strategic diversity, intentional inclusion, and organizational effectiveness. Dr. White believes that “Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is not just a checkmark for good business, it’s a way to transform the world.” Over her 20+ years of leadership, Dr. White has worked with over 200 corporate, educational, government, and non-profit brands, managed over $200 million in business assets for her clients, and written two books on diversity, equity, and inclusion including, “The Intentional Inclusionist,®” and “Next Level Inclusionist: Transforming Your Work and Yourself for Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Success.” Dr. White’s third book, “Inclusion Uncomplicated: Essential Guide to Simplifying DEI” in partnership with ForbesBooks is scheduled to release fall of 2022. Dr. White has presented over 200 keynote speeches and presentations across the country on issues such as team engagement, organizational leadership, strategic diversity, race equity, and intentional inclusion. Dr. White’s talks bring a mixture of expertise, passion, vision, and authentic style to create holistic takeaways for audiences. The heart of Dr. White’s work addresses the ability to create transformative environments with intentionality around inclusion. She helps create professional spaces where people can collaborate through a lens of compassion, empathy, and understanding.

Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Welcome to Conversations on Conversations, the show where each week we explore a topic that helps us have deeper conversations with ourselves and with each other. I am your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, and this week joining me is the marvelous, the magical, and the- I was gonna say mystical, you’re not mystical, but the magnificent Dr. Nika White. Dr. Nika White is a national authority and fearless advocate for diversity, equity, and inclusion. As an award winning management and leadership consultant, keynote speaker, published author, and executive practitioner for DEI efforts across business, government, nonprofit and education, Dr. White helps organizations break barriers and integrate DEI into their business frameworks. Her work has led to designation by Forbes as a Top Ten D and I Trailblazer. She is the founder of Nika White Consulting, where her firm works with organizations to identify and implement opportunities to embed DEI throughout its operations and cultures. But thing that I- I want to just highlight this last sentence. The heart of Dr. White’s work addresses the ability to create transformative environments with intentionality around inclusion. She helps professional spaces where people can collaborate through a lens of compassion, empathy, and understanding. And when I read that before, I was like, sign me up for that organization. That’s, that’s the place that I want to be. Welcome to the show, Dr. White.

Dr. Nika White
Thank you so much, Sarah, what a beautiful welcome, and I am just thrilled to be in conversation with you today. I support your work, and I am so excited for us to just delve right into some really courageous and intentional conversations.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, no, absolutely. What- you know, we- a former guest, we were talking about how we have our former bios, and then there’s, there’s other things about us. So what else would you want our audience to know about you?

Dr. Nika White
I love this question, I think that so often times we gravitate to what we do in terms of our position, our work, our titles, and less about what people really feel connected to, and so this question is great. I am a mother of two college kids who amaze me every day. I am a wife of a serial entrepreneur who helps me with my business acumen, and so I’m so grateful to be in a relationship with a partner that really can help me on this journey of entrepreneurship as a founder. I am a daughter of two wonderful parents. My dad is where I get my huge work ethic from. He’s a first generation college student, and my mom is just amazing, she’s my backbone. And, and I will say that, besides you know, being a daughter, a mom, a wife, I am also someone that cares deeply about the work of inclusion and equity, and I see it as my responsibility. And I want others to also see it as their responsibility. That’s part of- that’s part of my platform and part of why I do what I do.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I- thank you for, you know, for all of that because it’s so important for us to understand we play so many different roles, and we have so many different places that we have impact. So, thank you for sharing the- a little bit more of a spectrum of who you are. I- you know, so for those of you who are listening, I don’t remember when I became connected with you or started following you. It’s some point in the last two to three years, and there was so much about the work that you do. Pretty sure that we bonded over the fact that you were talking about not having lunch. And I said, “Do you need reminders, because I need reminders, so I’m happy to do that for you.” Just a little bit of backstory. And then you know, having the opportunity to follow your work, and to learn from your work, and, you know, this idea of, you know, you said it, that it’s your responsibility. And I I would love to start, as I was preparing for this and continuing to deepen my understanding of your work beyond how I interact with you on social media, there was one there was one phrase that I think I need to get framed. And it’s “If we do not intentionally include, then we unintentionally exclude.” And that, just say more about that because that landed on me on multiple ways. One realizing how often I may unintentionally or intentionally exclude. And then what does that look like? And so I would just I would love to open up the conversation from that place.

Dr. Nika White
Thank you for this question. It’s an important one and one that I gravitate to often when I’m given a chance just to share my thoughts about this broad topic of diversity, equity, and inclusion. I am a believer of intentionality. There’s so much power behind that word. Intent, intentional intentionality, any variation thereof. And it has a certain look and feel about it. It is calculated, it is calibrated, it requires being strategic and foresight, and being a believer of the process. It requires being action oriented, and the bottom line is that we cannot be passive about the work of inclusion, we have to be very intentional. That is the difference in the separator, I believe, that allows us to really be able to emerge stronger as we’re trying to create a more inclusive society. And so I focus a lot, Sarah, just on amplifying that. That we must be intentional, because if not, then we will find ourselves unintentionally creating these adverse implications for others that they aren’t deserving of. And so, I really want us to lean into not believing that this work, just because maybe we’re good people that automatically it’s going to organically lead to a sense of belonging, and inclusion, and equity, because it doesn’t usually, and even if it does, in some regards, it’s not fully optimized. So if we want to realize the full value, let’s make sure we’re exercising intentionality.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I- that, you know, there was another word in your book that you use to describe intentionality that I underlined, and that was “And also being assertive.” That, you know, that it’s not- it’s not just thinking about it, it’s not just having the good intentions, but that intentionality, and also that, you know, you just said it, the calculated, the action oriented, the conscious. And, you know, and I can speak from my own experience that I think there was a lot of years where I thought, well, you know, I’m a good person, I’m open, I’m welcoming, I’m supportive. I’m, you know, I’m open minded. And, and, and as I’ve been on my own journey of better understanding how I can be an intentional inclusionist, how I can show up differently and see differently, I realized how much I was missing out on, because just walking through the world and saying, yeah, I’m, you know, I’m a safe person, or I’m a, I’m a good person, there’s a lot of times that we may be creating harm. We may be missing opportunities to advocate. And you know, and it made me think about- I was working with a group once, and somebody had asked the question, “Yeah, man, I know self awareness is important, but like, why does that matter for leaders?” And it was a conversation you and Minda Hart was in the middle of- Harts was having. And we talked about, and I can’t remember which of you said it, but it’s, “If we’re not aware, we could be causing harm.”

Dr. Nika White
Absolutely.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And that, that has just- that has been seared for me. And so I would love to- I would love to just hear more of your thoughts around that.

Dr. Nika White
Self awareness is critical to to this work of being on this journey of learning and unlearning and, you know, positioning ourselves to be able to reflect and emulate what we want others to model after. And so you’re right, we can’t be passive about this work of inclusion, it does really take us being thoughtful about how we are showing up, and to plan to proactively plan to show up in a way that adds value, particularly to those who are historically excluded, and I like to say “under invested” or “underestimated.” I think that’s where that sense of belonging comes from. And without that sense of belonging, it’s hard for anyone to show up at their best in any environment if they’re questioning that. If they’re questioning, do I belong here? Am I valued? Am I seen? Am I heard? Am I safe? You know, do I have full opportunity for success? And so I, again, a big believer of the self awareness, and then the intentionality that I think plays a significant role. I coined the phrase “intentional inclusionist” years ago, and it’s actually the title of my first book, the book that you’ve been referencing. And primarily, the goal was to get people to move from this place of passively saying, “I value inclusion, I know the importance of it,” to then taking that value and moving that awareness to action. And that’s really the point of intentional inclusionist. How do we grow as inclusion minded leaders? And what I find is that when I use the word leadership in the context of DEI, it’s not about positionality, or title. Certainly that’s a part of, you know, the work of leadership, but I think that bigger than that, and more explicitly to the work of inclusion, it is about influence, and if we consider that, we can lead and influence about any place within the organization regardless of our titles. And that’s where I think there’s such a big opportunity because instead of thinking, yes, I value diversity, equity and inclusion, but I see it as the responsibility and the ownership of someone else- maybe like the chief diversity officer, manager, director, or even the HR professional- but instead, if I know that I have a sphere of influence that I can leverage with intentionality, that I also can help be a part of creating the society that’s more inclusive and equitable and a stronger sense of belonging for all. So it’s subtle, and it’s nuanced, but I think it’s powerful, and that’s been a message that I have amplified and continued to amplify for years now.

Sarah Noll Wilson
This is- I mean, this, there’s so much alignment between our values and work, you know, that’s something that we always say is, leadership isn’t a role, it’s an act, it’s a verb. It’s something- it’s something some of us do some of the time, and how do we do it- how do we do it more intentionally? And, and I think, you know, especially thinking from it- from like an organizational perspective, that’s a trap that people fall into is they go, “Oh, well, that’s just HR job. That’s just the diversity, equity and inclusion person’s job. That’s not my job.” And one of the things that- and I can only imagine how often you encounter this, and the work that you do, is how, how often when we talk about creating an inclusive environment, about thinking through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, that its approached, so transactionally. Right? It’s approached as an objective instead of a way of being. And that’s something that I love about that language of being an intentional inclusionist and leading from whatever role you’re in. And, and I know that, you know, one of the things that you speak to, in that, in that- in your first book is that it’s- and I wrote it down just because I want to, I want to honor your language, is promoting diversity, equity, and inclusion is more than just social responsibility. It gives us all opportunities to grow and learn from each other. And I think that element sometimes gets so missed because it’s viewed as this technical problem to solve. This transactional objective instead of understanding that, you know, it’s a, it’s an opportunity for us to tap into our head, our heart, and I had a client recently say, “So you can move your feet.” Like, let’s go from the head to the heart so we can move to the feet. And so I’m just curious to, you know, get your thoughts on that. And for people who may be listening, and I can imagine there are people listening who may be going, hmm, there’s probably an opportunity for me to show up more powerfully, and I might be working in an organization that views diversity, equity and inclusion through that transactional lens.

Dr. Nika White
Yes, such a lot to unpack with that, with that question. And I love this question. So the first thing that comes up for me, when you said the word transactional, I agree, and I- and that’s the paradigm shift that I’m trying to create. I think that we need to stop viewing the work of diversity, equity and inclusion as obligation, and we need to see it as opportunity. And when we see it as opportunity, we are impacting the heart and the head so that we can move our feet. I love that as well. I may I have to use it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I’ll send you her name so-

Dr. Nika White
So, please!

Sarah Noll Wilson
-You can tag her and properly give acknowledgement.

Dr. Nika White
Absolutely. But you know, this work starts at the personal level, Sarah, you know. So we tend to believe that this is just for organizations, right? At the organizational level. And that is huge because, and I often talk about, we can’t just try to solve our DEI programmatically, we have to think about systems, you know, policies, procedures, culture. That’s where we’re able to really create impact, and there’s a keen difference between activity versus impact. Activity has-

Sarah Noll Wilson
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow that down, slow that down.

Dr. Nika White
Okay.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Because I just want to- I want to make sure that we, because you’re saying it so fast and it is, like it just, you just blew my mind in a minute. So, okay, sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt, I just wanted to give it a highlight.

Dr. Nika White
No, you’re fine, you’re fine, and it is worth kind of slowing down and amplify. And I do talk fast, by the way, Sarah. But there’s a difference between activity versus impact. Activity has a start and end date, right? Impact is where we take the time to really assess the situation, we peel back all the layers, we get to the crux of the matter, we identify the root causes that could be continuing to perpetuate all of these vicious cycles that we want to end. And so once we take the time to do that, I think that we are better positioned to really address a way that leads towards DEI transformation. So we have to look at systems policies, procedures and culture. And, you know, don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing at all wrong with, you know, programs or initiatives. But I think that if we approach it in that mindset of it being a program or an initiative, it’s only for that moment going to make an impact. I want us to think more holistically about it. How do we really change the course of direction to where it can be sustained positively? So I am critically always interrogating that where I can. And then the other word that comes to mind as I think about what you shared, is humility. You talked about the learning journey. I mean, even, you know, those of us who are practitioners in this space that have been in this space for 20 plus years, which, which is my situation, I am constantly learning every single day. I have to check myself. Everyone does. So we’ve never arrived. And I believe that for those who are just kind of entering the conversation, it’s so important for them to also be mindful of this, this learning journey that has to just continue to gain momentum with every step of new data, new knowledge that we’re exposed to. And part of growing in this space is unlearning the misinformation that’s out there about diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hmm. Yeah, I think that, you know, I, there- there’s, I feel like I talk, especially when I’m talking to fellow white people, that there’s this, like, fear of I’m gonna mess up, I’m gonna make a mistake, and the thing that, that I’ve- that I’ve again learned from my journey and from so many great teachers like yourself is, it’s always evolving. I mean, we’re humans, humans are complex, there isn’t this finite, simple little definition, or there isn’t a simple- you know, I’m constantly joking humans don’t fit into four boxes, I know that you want to put them into four boxes, I know that you want to make it easy, but and and to realize that there are going to be regrettable events. And- but what do you do in those moments? And in fact, the a couple episodes prior to us talking that was one of the things that I was speaking with man, my colleague Anne Tomkinson about, and she said, she like, “I realized my role is to mess up publicly and to own it publicly.”

Dr. Nika White
Yes, I wish more people would lean into that, especially more leaders. And I am talking very explicitly when I use leaders of that context of positionality because I think that that’s a huge opportunity for others to realize that, well if these stakeholders and influencers and leaders can give themselves permission to be vulnerable, and to socialize that in a way, it allows others to give themselves permission to do the same, so that is so critically important. And I too like you, Sarah, I believe in the both and, I believe in the nuance. This is hard work, it is very complex, it’s very complicated, and so there’s not really a one size fits all approach. And so we have to make sure that we also are extending grace and accepting grace to those who are on this journey that are really committed to getting it right, but along the way maybe they may have some missteps, but don’t we all, right? I’ll be honest with you, I’m not a big fan of the cancel culture. I’m not. I think that we need everyone to be a part of this conversation for us to emerge stronger. I want people to do this work because of, and not despite, right? In spite of, I think that it’s so important for us to be willing to bring people along, and I’m not saying give them a pass or an excuse and not hold them accountable, but bring them along. Who’s going to want to continue this hard work if they feel attacked, right, or shamed, guilted, judged, blamed. You know, I think there’s, I think there’s a better way to be able to help us get to a point where we all can become a part of solving for this because that’s what needs to happen. We have to choose courage over comfort. Not sit on the sidelines, but choose courage over comfort.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. It’s a- And to your point, there’s, there’s a difference between holding people accountable and engaging in conversations. Yes. And just, you know, because I, you know, I mean, there- I think about, again, my own journey, or people that I work with, or I’m learning, you know, along the way with, and those, you know, those moments of missteps or mistakes, whether they were oh, when I really thought about it, you know, there was some intentionality behind that, you know, like there was a poke I wanted to make, or real is like, unintentionally, I didn’t know and understand your lived experience to understand how what I just did was harmful. Like, that- that discomfort- you know, I think that everything we do in our work, in our world is about behavior change, right, being really intentional. And some of the most important and best learning moments we have is when the heat’s been turned up, right?

Dr. Nika White
That’s so true.

Sarah Noll Wilson
When there is some discomfort. But if the heat’s too high, to your point, if I’m attacked or whatever, then I burn, and now I go into protection mode, and now I can’t be empathetic. Now I can’t listen. Now I can’t get curious. You know, not only can I get curious about you, but I sure as hell can get curious about myself in this moment.

Dr. Nika White
I often say that when aggression meets aggression, the conversation ends. And when the conversation the dialogue ends, there’s no chance for us to be able to shift behavior, our mindset, because now we aren’t even speaking, we aren’t even, you know, communicating at all. And part of I think our role as, as those of us who really care deeply about this work, and we do want to hold people accountable, where we are attempting to call in those behaviors, and notice I said “call in the behaviors,” not call people out, because we’re trying to influence the likelihood for behavioral change, and we can’t do that if we lose that rapport and that level of respect of communication.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. It’s, you know, something- I actually was just referencing your work this morning and talking to a colleague of mine, and, how there’s a focus of yours, or at least how you described it in the book of, you pay attention to the quiet ones in the back. You know, they’re, they’re- but you know because if we think of, we think of behavior change, I like to look at it through that, I forget what it’s called, but it’s like literally the behavior change model of precontemplative. I don’t know what I don’t know, I don’t even care that I don’t, I’m not even thinking that I don’t know, to contemplative of huh, to then planning, and taking action. Right? And everyone’s on a different journey with that. And, and I and I- and I appreciate it and love that idea of, well who are the who are the silent champions that are sitting out there? Who are the people who are, you know, they’re curious, but maybe they don’t know how, they’re not sure, maybe they don’t have the courage yet. And, and listening and paying attention to engaging those voices as well. And so I’d love to, I would love to hear more thoughts from you on that idea of like paying attention to the quiet ones in the back.

Dr. Nika White
Yeah. Well, I think that’s critical because again it goes back to my philosophy, I think there’s a large population of people that at their core, if you were to engage them, they certainly can communicate the value and the importance of DEI, but they’re passive about it, they’re quiet, they don’t see that they need to really engage in the work. And I am not a believer of, of taking energy, and investing it in the attempt to try to persuade someone who is really already completely set on this mindset in life of bigotry, hatred, prejudice, you know, discrimination. I feel like, there’s a much better chance for us to garner greater championship and ambassadorship and supportive DEI if we connect with those who are just quiet and maybe on the fence, and just don’t know how to engage. They’re passive. And so that’s been my philosophy around this journey, and I also believe that resistance is a lack of clarity. Resistance is a lack of clarity. And so-

Sarah Noll Wilson
Say more about that, yeah, continue.

Dr. Nika White
So if I am going to try to bring someone along, that I perceive is thinking that DEI is just a distraction, and it’s unnecessary, to me, my first question is, how can I understand better about their lens and their knowledge of this broad body of work? Because to me, that resistance has a lot to do with just the unawareness, the ignorance that’s there. And, you know, and I use that word ignorance to really just talk about the, the unawareness of- based upon maybe someone’s lived experience, how they’ve never had to navigate any anything that caused them to feel compelled to want to lean into this more. So we have to share stories. I’m a big believer of storytelling and getting, you know, to know people below the surface to where we can understand what their lived experience may be, and then be able to reflect on that against our lived experiences, and then believe them in a way to where it helps us to feel empathetic and compassion and, be called to action around support, and care. And so I think that sometimes it’s also an issue of the lack of clarity that maybe we are attuned to as allies and advocates of this work that we need to pay closer attention to.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s, you know, one of the, one of the core practices in my book is that we call it the curiosity-first approach. And it comes from the fact that so often when I was working with people, navigating, you know, relationship conflicts or disagreements, is how- how not often how, how little people took the time- I mean, for two, for two things that were opportunities to get curious about themselves, right, you know, through their own discomfort. So if the topic of diversity, equity inclusion makes you uneasy, well, instead of just shutting down, get curious about it. What can you learn about yourself? And that unpeeling and, and being courageous to consider that you might discover some things you don’t want to about yourself as you’re reflecting it, but then the other side is like genuine curiosity about the other person and to- like you and I are very aligned from the standpoint of everyone’s got a story. It’s not, it’s not- the goal isn’t to create their story, but to remind yourself that it is, and I think so often- you know, and I think naturally we do this as humans, we look at the world through our lens and our lived experiences, and how critical it is to, to honor the fact that your experience is your experience, and other people have had totally different experiences. And sometimes I think we’re- people can be quick to shut it down, or minimize, or negate or say, oh, no, that didn’t really happen, or whatever the case might be, instead of- because here’s the thing, I don’t know anyone who would be like, oh, I’m not empathetic, oh, I don’t care about people. Oh, no, I really, I wouldn’t want to step in someone else’s shoes. But the act of that is an act of courage. Because we may, it may reveal something that may be uncomfortable for us, right? That we have to wrestle with now, but the- but what will open up for you- going back to that point of, it’s an opportunity for us to learn and grow from each other.

Dr. Nika White
You know, Sarah-

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s only going to deepen your experience.

Dr. Nika White
I so agree. You’re speaking my language, I think it’s because we shy away from discomfort. We don’t- we always want to be comfortable. And, and I think that that actually hurts us as a society because we try to stay at that level of comfort. And we know that growth occurs when we are outside of our comfort zone. You know, I am, I am very quick to be able to if I’m socializing with a large group of people, and some experiences come forth, especially if I’m like the only, the only lonely, and saying “I don’t see myself in that example,” or, “That’s not my experience.” And I think that’s important, we have to be willing to shed the light on that difference, right? And I also believe that curiosity, to your point, is so critical. It’s actually one of our core values at my company, NWC, we talk often about, you know, the need to seek understanding first, before we assume, before we react, before we even saw, you know, and being those lifelong learners with great level of intentionality around, you know, being in search of opportunities to deepen our knowledge, and to grow our skill sets. That’s really critically important for us. And when we lean into our curiosities, I think that it positions us to ask better questions, right? I think that we are a society, that we rely more heavily on making definitive statements, and not enough asking thoughtful questions to really understand, and learn, and grow, and interrogate what we’re hearing and process what we’re hearing. And so I- yes, you’re, you’re speaking my language.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s- what a- and like, partly because that’s what’s been rewarded, that’s- we’ve been conditioned that there’s a right answer on the test, we’ve been conditioned, right? Like our whole culture has been set up for, you know, either the binary or the limited thinking, and we’ve been rewarded for that, instead of asking the questions. And, you know, and for me, when you know, when I think about curiosity, it’s this deep, it’s this deep understanding that I’ll never know, there’s always something I don’t know. There’s something they don’t know about me, there’s something I don’t know about you, or about this experience- I want to go back to the example you shared of- I want to choose out two things. Let me write the other one down so don’t lose it. So, because part of you know, part of the intention with these types of conversations is to find those moments where we can give people examples of what it looks like to show up in moments perhaps differently, and maybe questions of reflection. So I just I want to highlight that example you shared of, “I don’t see myself in that example.” And it’s so, it’s so powerful. I know I’ve had moments where somebody- I met a really, really amazing person through that lens, that happened on Twitter actually. Neha Sampat, who we’re going to be interviewing her next weekend.

Dr. Nika White
Love her.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, she’s incredible. And I shared something that was benign, it felt- let me clarify, it felt like a simple statement. Right? And then she said- and the statement was, just for clarity was, “We don’t we don’t get to decide if we’re trustworthy or not.” Right? Other people do.

Dr. Nika White
Yeah, other’s decide that for us. Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Not that it’s a wrong statement, and what she added on was her perspective as a woman of color, as an immigrant, and we have to understand that you know, people hold bias against some people to- basically like, and not everyone is even given the trustworthiness because of who they are, what they look like.

Dr. Nika White
Of course.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And it was such a powerful expansion. What- What would you say? Or what might be a question that somebody who- who’s listening to this and is like, I want to- I don’t know, I don’t know how to step into my discomfort. You know, what, like, what are some of those reflection questions, you know, for, you know, for me, what’s coming up is one, just even noticing and naming. “This is uncomfortable for me,” as maybe even listening to this conversation. So, what might be some reflection questions or things that you would invite somebody who’s, who’s who’s toeing that line and unsure, or doesn’t know how to step into what it is to step into that discomfort?

Dr. Nika White
Another great question, Sarah. And one of the things that I use often with many of our clients, or even just other groups that are convening, to build community, and to have a clear understanding of the lens that every person brings to that environment is, you know, in this safe space, and I use those words loosely, because you know, just calling a space safe is not what makes it safe. Obviously, it’s about the people in the space feeling like they can show up very bravely, you know, but generally speaking, it just provides this opportunity where people are asked to share no other formal agenda, but just share your DEI story, share the lens in which you show up to this work of DEI, what are those intersecting identities that helps you to think the way that you do, interact the way that you do, to make decisions the way that you do, and just in hearing people reflect on that alone, is so powerful, because it connects everyone to this uniqueness that they bring to that environment. And there’s something really beautiful and powerful, and it gives people agency to feel like that’s okay, it’s okay that I’m different. It’s okay that my lens is shaped by these experiences that may be different from yours. And I think through that this learning occurs that is informal and organic, but it is so powerful and useful. And it breeds about this deepened level of curiosity, going back to that word, of wanting to know more, and then seeing our colleagues and our friends in a light that’s not as their title and their position in the organization, but more as now a person, a human. And it’s just- so I mean, honestly, it’s not really a question, it’s just a prompting of can we create this space for people show up bravely, to be able to talk about the intersecting identities that they have, and the lens in which they show up and they think about, broadly, the work of diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, you were, I was thinking it. And then you were just saying it is like, we walk around and, you know, we have these labels we assign to ourselves or to other people, right, whether it’s their title, whether it’s, you know, a label we’ve created for them or, and how do we- and it’s, is always, it’s always remarkable to me how powerful it is when we can be connected at a human level. And it’s- it seems like, well, yeah, no, I know they’re human. It’s like, yeah, no, I know, but there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of things that might be limiting that. And so that opportunity to be open to and connecting- and, you know, and, and I think what I would add is, if you’re in those moments, again, like noticing what comes up for you, right? Like noticing what emotions come up for you, what thoughts do you have? And to get curious about it, because, because otherwise, I think what can happen is I’m uncomfortable, and I shut it down. I’m uncomfortable, and I project onto you, right? I get frustrated that we’re talking about this, so I shut it down instead of of like, how do we expand? How do we expand this moment as an opportunity to learn about yourself and also to learn about other people?

Dr. Nika White
I say that all data is opportunity. Not right wrong, good or bad. It’s just opportunity, we get to choose what we do with it. If it’s something to reinforce, then that’s great. Let’s build up that momentum and that traction. If it’s something that we need to shift and change and modify, that’s still opportunity, so let’s just see it as opportunity. And you said something a moment ago, it was about we don’t necessarily always see each other as humans, right? And that’s so true. I often share that we, especially in the work environment, we see each other as resources, not as human. And we have to remember it’s about human resources, but the human comes first. And the other thing that I will say too, it goes back to the questions that we can engage around in this safe, brave, space community for people to really unpack their intersecting identities, and how in which they they believe DEI should be manifested by their own experiences. But two other questions that I often will share is, what do you never again want people to say, think, and do about your group speaking about your identity group? And then what do you value that you want people to know? Right? And then I often share with everyone it’s weird just hearing people tell these stories because as you can imagine, oftentimes it can be quite triggering. So you have to make sure that you have a community of supporters that are willing to stand in solidarity and really just be that, that encourager, but as people start sharing these stories, they’re letting their emotions flow, whether or not they intend for it to or not, sometimes they just flow. And when it does, it is hard in that moment to see a person across from you, and to see them as a resource without, you know, having that deep level of humanity and care to just really, just overtake the the environment and the situation. And then what I often say to the rest of the people that are listening, intently listening, all the person is sharing is that, then we have a responsibility as we hear this information, how can we now arm ourselves through this information with ways that we can combat whenever we find ourselves witness to or victim of someone saying these things that we’ve heard. I never again want people to say, think, or do XYZ about my group and about my identity. And so it’s, it takes some practice, and it takes certainly having a couple people in that space that know how to navigate these complex conversations, as you can imagine, so I don’t at all want the listeners to just feel like they can go and just try this at home. But it is incredibly powerful when it’s done well. Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And even, you know, I imagine that if you- if you aren’t experiencing a part of- if you’re not a part of a facilitated experience like that, that, you know- what’s coming up for me is, and when is somebody telling you that, without directly telling you that? You know, like, how can you, how can you listen for that, and how can you, again, honor and believe and trust? And, you know, so how can, how can you be just be listening for those, those- and, and again, it might not be explicit. There’s a couple of stories that are coming up for me right now that I’m thinking about. But-

Dr. Nika White
Well let’s think about the example that I mentioned earlier, I don’t see myself in that example. How often do we find ourselves a part of conversations where people are making generalized generalizations about certain identities? Or, you know, again, they gravitate to the stereotypes. You know, if I’m a part of that group, and I’m in that setting, just to simply say, I don’t see myself in that example, you know, tell me more about that. Why are you thinking along those lines? Help me to understand your perspective. Or even if we just were to not tiptoe around it, but be emboldened enough, if we feel brave in that moment, to say, I find that offensive, I’m letting you know directly, you know? And not everybody has the agency in every circumstances, situation, and environment to go there, I get that, there’s so many different, you know, elements about the situation that could cause someone to not feel like it’s safe to do so, so I do want to honor that, but for those who have that agency, and they are able to, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with then just in the spirit of boldness, being able to say that. You know, and I respect you enough as a colleague or friend to let you know that that’s offensive. You would- and I hope that you extend the same courtesy to me if some of my actions or words were creating harm for someone else.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. It’s the- I mean it goes back to, you know, the book conversation that you and Minda had, that we were able to attend is, you know, nobody benefits from your caution, but so many can benefit from your courage.

Dr. Nika White
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and it’s- and, you know, and that’s the thing that’s for me, why- as somebody who is an in progress, in progress reformed avoider, right? Like, I’m still working on it, still building up those those muscles. But, and also, you know, like, that’s, that’s an opportunity to for people to go, I didn’t speak up, like, let me get curious about why. Did I not because it wasn’t safe? Did I not because I wanted to protect something for myself, right? You know, just hearing a story this week, I was talking to somebody after a keynote that I had given and she was sharing with me some of the racial trauma that she had experienced and, and she said, and nobody spoke up, nobody ever- and she said, and I didn’t know if people saw it or not. But she said, when I left, what I heard was, you know, one of the coworkers said, “Do you think the boss is going to treat us like that now that she’s gone?” So it was like, so this person saw it, they knew it, but there was some sort of self- you know, there’s some kind of self protection mechanism and then I think, I would imagine, you know, when I think of the idea of being unintentional inclusionist is, I got to get real honest and willing to consider what are the reasons, assumptions, beliefs, things that I’m protecting, especially like, I say this as a white woman, that are keeping me from doing this? That’s more than just me not knowing, but like, oh, I’m actually benefiting from this, and I’ve got to be willing to reflect on that.

Dr. Nika White
Oh, absolutely. Self reflection is so important, as is self awareness. But, you know, I think it goes back to also the realization that bias doesn’t make us bad people, we all have it to some degree. And there’s a spectrum of it that exists out there. But it also does not, Sarah, exonerate us from the consequences of our actions. So that’s where I feel like you don’t have to own the intent, but it is important as an intentional inclusionist to own the impact. You can step on my toe and tell me that you’re sorry, and I could very well believe that you did not mean step on my toe, but then guess what, my toe still hurts, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Dr. Nika White
So what are we going to do about that? And I also believe that silence is a message as well. And it’s not always the intended message, so if we’re witness to this harm, and we stay on the sidelines, quiet, then we are sending a message that either we condone it, either we are tone deaf and it just really just went over our head and we didn’t even realize it, right, or a variety of different things. But I believe that one of the opportunities we don’t talk about as much is, it’s one thing for a victim to have the self agency to want to protect themselves, but what about those who are witness to these situations? What’s their responsibility? How are you feeling call to action in that moment? Right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and you know, and I think about it through the, you know, again, that self reflection of, you know, not just, why did I stay silent, but what did my silence say?

Dr. Nika White
Absolutely. And it’s so powerful. And I think that’s also why, May of 2020, after George Floyd’s murder, so many organizations felt- had this heightened awareness and sensitivity to needing to make a statement, make a statement, and I don’t- I don’t say it that way to criticize, because I understand the complexity of being at that moment in time, right, and, and because it was so visual, it was so hard, it was, you know, the whole world was witness to it, that you couldn’t help but to feel like I have to do something in this moment, right. And so, but what a lot of organizations who missed the mark did was say, you know, that’s not my lane, I’m gonna let the social justice folks kind of deal with that, I’m gonna stay in my lane and be quiet. And the assumption was that what’s happening outside of the four walls of our organization is not impacting the people who show up to our organization to give their best. And that was totally misguided, because it was, it absolutely was. Yeah. So silence is a message.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And continues, right? Like, and, and certainly, you know, I know, I know there are people, you know, leaders who are in those formal positions of power and authority who are, you know, they’re focused on the productivity and their focus, but again I go back to, there’s not, there’s not as many people who would consciously say I don’t care about people that, you know, I wouldn’t want them to feel safe, I wouldn’t want them to feel valued and accepted, and, you know, and that’s actually something I’d love to spend just a little bit of time on. I’m with you, of that difference between appreciation versus acceptance and valued, but, but to again recognize we’re bringing our whole, our whole selves to the table, and to just go back to that, that quote that we started with, that if you’re not intentionally building that culture of safety, that culture of belonging, if you’re not doing the work to explore what- for us, we do a lot of work with people around like, what am I doing that’s getting in the way of the very thing I say is important to me, because sometimes we can’t just put our foot on the gas, we have to figure out what part of us is got our foot on the brake, and what assumptions are we making, and, you know, and how do we untangle that, and unlearn some of that, or at least recognize that that’s there. And that- I’m losing my train of thought a little bit, but just that idea that it’s not enough to just, well, that’s not gonna affect us. Well, it is, and are you, are you okay? Like, are you- are you really, okay that somebody in your organization doesn’t feel safe? Are you really okay? And that’s, you know, it’s a real question that I think people need to ask. I want to- one of the things that I loved how you split out that, you know, this idea of, of inclusion, especially when we think about it through an organizational lens, but you know, people are listening to this and I want it always to apply to personal too, of that it isn’t just enough to appreciate somebody or to appreciate our differences, but that we create an environment where they’re accepted and valued. And I would love to just hear you tease out those differences, as we’re coming to the end of our conversation.

Dr. Nika White
You know, to me, it’s about the being active versus kind of passive, you know? I akin it to inviting and welcoming, there’s this subtle, but there’s a difference, right? I can say, okay, this event is open to the public, anybody can come. But if I am noticing that, you know what, historically we’ve had this event, and there’s so many segments of our community that are not partaking and enjoying this experience, but now I am intentionally kind of reaching out to those individuals well beyond the time of need, or the opportunity, but I’m building and cultivating those relationships, I’m making space for them at that particular event in a way that’s meaningful for them, I’m not placing the burden on them to have a good experience, but I am getting their input to make sure that as I am planning the experience, to include them, that it can be meaningful and enjoyable. So there’s a difference. Subtle, but there’s a difference between inviting, and welcoming. And I think it’s the same about, you know, appreciating difference, or at least saying it, which, you know, can be quite, you know, just rhetoric, but when we’re actually, you know, providing a space and we’re incorporating different touch points, that really speaks to that. It’s, it deepens, really, the the credibility of someone’s intent on really ensuring that those individuals feel safe, accepted, valued, celebrated, welcomed. And so it’s, it’s subtle, but I think it’s really important distinction.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you for that. I know we’re coming down to the end of our time, I have so much more I want to talk with you about so we’re just going to have to bring you back at some point.

Dr. Nika White
I would love that, Sarah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I want to ask you our final question that we asked everyone, and that is, what’s a conversation you’ve had with yourself, or with someone else, that was transformative? And you can share whatever you want to share around that conversation with us.

Dr. Nika White
And so, you prepared me for this question, so I did spend some time thinking about it. It’s a great question, by the way. And I had a different answer until today. So I, we do an intentional conversations podcast, and my my guest this morning was actually Brittany Janay Harris, and she has these liberated love notes that she makes available. And she talks about how important it is to answer the question, who are you from? Not where are you from and who are you, but who are you from? And I was, I was so drawn to that conversation and I was hanging on to her every word, but, that was transformative for me, and the reason why is because hearing her talk about the beauty, and how she was honoring so many of her ancestors, and how so much about them is infused in who she is, and how she shows up to the world, and how she’s so grateful for that, and that grounds her was really instrumental for me to hear. And I found it to be just very transformative. And so now I find myself thinking about, you know, consider if- if you consider the fact that oftentimes when we encounter people we ask, well, what do you do? Who are you? Where are you from? And it’s always about, you know, connecting our identity to what we do, but when she said we need to start answering the question who are we from, and why that matters, I, I was really drawn to that. So that’s my answer for today.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it, that gives me, that gives me like, I mean, literal goosebumps. We will, we will share that episode. If you are okay with that, we can add it into our show links so people can go back. And just for you know, for those of us who are listening, who want to connect with you, who want to learn from you, who may want to hire you and bring you and your team in, what is the best way people can connect with you, Dr. White?

Dr. Nika White
Oh, the easiest way, Sarah, is through our website, which is simply Nika White dot com, N. I. K. A. W. H. I. T. E. dot com. We invite you all to reach out, we have lots of courtesy resources that we make available. It’s our way to show up to the world of all those learners who want to deepen their knowledge and understanding of DEI, and so we hope that you will take us up on some of those courtesy offerings to deepen your knowledge. And I just, I just want to thank you all so for having me today, it’s been such a joy, you’ve been such a great supporter of me personally, and of NWC and our work and I just want you to know that I’m proud of you. I’m proud of the release of your new book, excited for you and all that’s to come, Sarah, and just look forward to continuing to be in conversation in a multitude of ways going forward.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Likewise, thank you so much, and we will, we will share all of that information in the show notes. I highly recommend you do follow Nika and the work that they do, you have a weekly VodCast that I highly recommend, and just watch, watch how how she introduces those shows because your intentionality in those moments is always so clear. And so I just- huge heartfelt thank you again for showing up and stepping into this space with me. I am going to be really thinking about that “Who you from?” That is cleverful list of things.

Dr. Nika White
Who are you from? Isn’t it great? Who are you from?

Sarah Noll Wilson
No, that’s good. Thank you so much.

Dr. Nika White
Thank you. Thanks so much, Sarah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations. I know that I so enjoyed, and I’m thinking deeply about the conversation that I was just able to have with Dr. White, as we explored this idea of how to become an intentional inclusionist. Something that I’m going to hold on- well, there’s two things that I’m going to hold on to from this conversation amongst others, but the two I want to name is first that idea of being an intentional inclusionist and realizing that when we’re not intentionally including, we’re unintentionally excluding, and I know that that’s not the impact I want to make. The other was that point about silence as a message. There are times when I have been silent, there have been times when I was afraid to speak up. There have been times when I wasn’t sure what to say, and realizing that in my inactivity of not being passive or being silent, I was sending a message and it sure isn’t the message that I want to send. I look forward to hearing what resonated for you. You know, and as we- as you think about and explore your own world, if you’re interested in holding more deeper, more meaningful conversations with others, or if you just simply like to connect with us, you can check us out at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. You can also find me on all the major social media platforms, my DMs are always open. Also, you can pick up a copy of my book, “Don’t Feed the Elephants,” where books are sold, which is my love letter to my fellow avoiders. If you’d like to support our work, visit us on Patreon dot com, backslash Conversations on Conversations, where as a patron of our work, not only will your financial support sustain this podcast and the incredible team that does this work, but you can also get access to some pretty great benefits like some unique swag, and Patreon only content and events. You can also like, subscribe, rate, review to the show. Having more reviews out there is helpful for us to get the word out and to be able to bring on amazing guests like Dr. White. Finally, I just want to give an incredible thank you to the team who makes this podcast possible, to Drew Noll and Nick Wilson for the editing and producing of the show, to Olivia Reinert for helping with transcribing, and to Kaitlyn Summitt-Nelson for all of her marketing support. And my deepest gratitude to Dr. Nika White for joining us today, for sharing with us, not only her passion and her work, but helping us all learn how we can be more intentional inclusionist. And with that, thank you all so much for joining us. I hope that you rest, and rehydrate, and stay well. Bye, everyone.

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