Episode 003: A Conversation on Humanizing the Workplace with Dr. Cris Wildermuth

In this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations, Sarah sits down with Dr. Cris Wildermuth to discuss humanizing the workplace, how we can show up as our full selves at work, work avoidance, and more.

About our guest

Dr. Cris Wildermuth is an Associate Professor at Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa, where she directs the Master of Leadership Development. Originally from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, Dr. Wildermuth has traveled extensively, conducting leadership development programs in various countries in Latin America and in Europe.  Dr. Wildermuth’s main research interests are Leadership Ethics, Employee Engagement, and Global Leadership.  She frequently speaks in national and international conferences and is the author of Diversity Training, published by the Association for Talent Development. Her articles have been published in various academic journals such as the Journal of Business Ethics, the Journal of Leadership Education, and the Journal of Psychological Issues in Organizational Culture.

Resources mentioned

Toggl Track – time tracking for teams

Tripp – meditation app

Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Welcome to Conversations on Conversations, the show where each week we explore a topic that can help us all have deeper conversations with ourselves, and with other people to build more powerful relationship. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, and this week joining me is Dr. Cris Wildermuth. Now, before I talk about all the ways that I love her, let me give you the formal bio. Dr. Cris Wildermuth is an associate professor at Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa, where she directs the Master of Leadership Development. Originally from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, Dr. Wildermuth has traveled extensively, conducting leadership development programs in various countries in Latin America and in Europe, and I’ve been able to join her on some of those trips. Dr Wildermuth’s main research interest are Leadership Ethics, employee engagement, and global leadership. She frequently speaks in national and international conferences and is the author of “Diversity Training,” published by the Association of Talent Development. Her articles have been published far and wide in various academic journals, such as the Journal of Business Ethics, the Journal of Leadership Education, and the Journal of Psychological Issues in Organizational Cultures. So, I cannot wait for you all to meet Cris, Dr. Wildermuth. I’m gonna call you, Cris, if that’s- are you- I mean, that’s how we know each other. Is that okay?

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Yeah, I’m kind of laughing here, because every time I listen to this bio, I’m thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I did this stuff, but that doesn’t sound like, like it doesn’t say that I like to play a stupid app called Game of Sultans, and that I’m very proud of myself because I reached 2.8 billion in it, and that I enjoy finding new technology toys, or, right? It doesn’t feel like me, even though it’s-

Sarah Noll Wilson
It doesn’t, no. We’re gonna have to work on that. You’re gonna learn a lot about Cris through this conversation, and also, Cris is somebody who is going to be a reoccurring guest and guest host on the show, so we want to introduce her to you all early. For those of you who are unaware, I met Cris, actually, when I was a student at Drake, going to the program, and she was this, you know, professor, unlike any teacher I’d ever had. She challenged the system, she taught in a way that I had never experienced, but it was one of the first times that I had experienced what learning could look like for me. And since that time, over the many years, we’ve just formed a strong relationship. We collaborate on a ton of stuff. And she is a big reason why I’m here in front of you, because she’s the one who all those years ago, said, “Sarah, I think you should consider speaking.” And I said, “What would I have to say?” She’s like, a lot. So with that, I’m so excited. Cris, welcome! Welcome to the show.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Thank you, Sarah. This is so much fun.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And what else? I mean, you already started to talk, but what else would you want people to know about you?

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Okay, other than Game of Sultans and technology toys.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, wait, wait, we’ve got a pause there for a second. Because, just side note, every single time that Cris and I have a conversation, at some point, she’s like, yeah, I use this you know, boobal site, don’t you use that? And every time it’s something different, and it’s always amazing, and my answer is always no. No, Cris, I don’t know about that. But, sorry, please continue, Cris.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Yeah, by now, by now I have – I’m going to teach my first ethics class in a couple of weeks, and I created this electronic bingo, which by the way, I can give you the address of, which it says, “Cris suggests – ” One of the bingo squares is, “Cris goes on a tangent.” Okay, think of that. And then another one is “Cris suggests a technology toy,” “Cris mentions yet another technology toy.” “Cris adds crap to the curriculum or the syllabus that wasn’t there.” “Cris forgets about the syllabus.” So yeah, if you want to know what it’s like to have a professor with ADHD, you might want to take a class with me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s beautiful. I’m excited for us to explore and just see where the conversation goes. Today we’re going to be talking about humanizing the workplace, right? And again, the idea of this, is how can we explore topics that impact us, how can we explore maybe things that we could be thinking about differently, how we might approach conversation. So as we’re exploring this topic, I’ll be sure to grab moments to reinforce some of those insights or practices that come up. There’s something, you know, there’s something really provocative for me in thinking about the idea of humanizing the workforce, right? You know, given the fact that organizations are largely built up of humans, and led by humans, and run by humans, right? And powered, even those that are in manufacturing or rely on technology, and yet, we are in the year 2022, and we still have such a long ways to go when it comes to really creating workplaces that work for humans. And you know, when you think of the idea of humanizing the workplace, Cris, what comes up for you?

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
First thing that comes to mind, even listening to you right now, Sarah, is a little bit of sadness and a little bit of surprise that this should even be an issue. At what point in our history, I’m suspecting industrial revolution, but at what point in our history did we decide that work and life were separate, had to be balanced, and had to be treated differently, like you put on a mask to go to work? And the behaviors that are expected of you when you go to work are professional behaviors. What do professional behaviors look like? What does professionalism even mean? And I’m looking back- you know how much I’m a fan of The Game of Thrones, right? Other than my app, the Game of Sultans, I really enjoy Game of Thrones, and I’m teaching an ethics class coming up using the Game of Thrones again, and I was watching this beautiful scene in which Catelyn Stark- and if you’re listening this and you haven’t seen the Game of Thrones, you totally need to- in which Lady Catelyn Stark is… Lady Brienne, who is one of the knights, is promising, is vowing to serve Catelyn Stark. So it’s one of those moments in which a person vows to serve another, right? So it could be a metaphor for somebody hiring somebody, or somebody who says “I’m going to work in your organization.” But the dialogue between these two women is “I will serve you, and I will help you, and I will do everything for you.” I can’t remember the words. But I remember Catelyn Stark’s or the boss’s words, and it was, “You will always have a seat at my table-” I’m getting goosebumps- “You will always get a seat at my table, I will never ask you to do anything that will bring you dishonor.” And I remember those two things. And I’m thinking, what if, when we joined an organization, we really were joining an organization of people, we were saying to Catelyn Stark, “I will bring myself and my best to you.” And Catelyn Stark, and the organization would be saying, “I will never ask of you anything that will bring you dishonor, and you will always have a seat at my table.” And to me what that means is, “I will think about you as a human being, and I will always protect your ethics.” What would the workplace be like if we saw each other like Catelyn Stark and Brienne of Tarth see each other?

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that. I love that. I love that so much. You know, and I’m thinking, you know, I’m thinking back to that scene and as you were first sharing it, that was my thought too is, what would be possible if there was this, you know, like commitment to each other? And not not just transactionally, not a contract, but this commitment to each other to say, hey, we are you are you’re giving your most precious resource, which is your time and your energy, right, and your thinking, and your emotional energy, and you know all of that, and I see that, and I’m going to make sure that you’re always safe, you’re protected, you’re valued. And even though it might be, gosh, there’s so many places you know we can go but, it’s so powerful. It seems so simple. And I think your point about- that you made earlier is a really important one from the standpoint of this interesting separation of here’s how- now for some people, they may show up the same, good or bad, at work as they do outside of work- but the separation of what does it mean to be in a relationship with each other? What does it mean to be, you know, I would might use in communion with each other, right? To collaborate with each other, to make these commitments together, in a way that serves both of us as humans, because we know that if I feel taken care of as a team member, for example, if I feel safe, if I know that I have a seat at your table, you’re going to get the best of me, and when you get the best of me, guess what the organization is going to get the best of me, our clients are going to get the best of me. And yet, that’s not norm, yet. Yeah.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
I’m even going back to like, full circle to the very beginning of the presentation when you introduced me with a professional bio, right? I came and I laughed, and I said, yeah, but that doesn’t say-

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s not me!

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
That’s not me, right? That doesn’t talk about- that bio is for public consumption. It’s what I have to present to the world so that the world takes me seriously. Because if I go out there, and I say, “Hi, I’m Cris, I enjoy tech toys. I love my little dog, Bambi. I’m a little messy. I just discovered I have ADHD, and I’m grappling with that.” That would not, that would not make people believe that I can do anything, or that I can lead. How sad is that?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. Well, and also, then how many situations can we not only lead with that, but we can’t even exist with that. Right? Like, we can’t even potentially bring those elements of ourselves to the workplace, right? And, you know, again, because of, well what is professional? And professional is a social construct, right? It’s just, it’s created. It’s a, it’s imaginary, right? We’ve created these, what does it mean to be professional, and you know, and let’s also, let’s name it what it is, right? The rules of what it means to be professional in the workplace were largely created by those people who are in power, which are white men, right? From a standpoint of a white dominant culture too, and, you know, so when we talk about- I’m excited to get into this with you. Humanizing the workplace isn’t going to happen in your strategies, isn’t going to happen in your perfectly finessed, perfectly- I don’t know, perfectly edited statements or values. Humanizing the workplace shows up in every single interaction we have with each other, and how we treat each other, and how we care for each other. And I know in preparation for this that was something you and I were talking about. And so I’d love to, you know, hear your thoughts from the standpoint of, what do you see companies spend time on that gets them away from actually showing up? Right? And creating the safety that we all deserve?

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
I am laughing here because as you’re talking about your carefully statements, I have such a problem with three things: mission statements, vision statements, and strategic planning. I can-

Sarah Noll Wilson
This is like blasphemy, Cris, you realize, there’s gonna be people who are like, “But here’s what I know, or here’s what I do, or I make-” Yeah, yes. So I just, this is controversial what you’re offering here, but I want to explore it.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
I don’t- here’s the deal. I don’t mind that you think about what your mission and your vision is. Our mission vision. I don’t have a problem with that. I don’t have a problem with having an open conversation about what are we all about? What do we want to do? What do we want to be known for? What how do we want to differentiate ourselves from from other groups so that there’s room for all of us, but each of us could be very good in one thing, we can’t be good at everything. Sure, let’s have a conversation about where do we want to go? Where do we want to be? Those conversations are powerful. The problem is that instead of having the powerful conversations, what we’re doing is worrying about the wording. So we spend hours and hours and hours, pampering that crazy vision statement. I’ve participated in so many vision statements and mission statement conversations in my career. I can’t remember a single vision mission statement. I have no idea what the heck the mission and the vision. Sorry, Drake, I don’t have foggiest clue what our mission and vision are. If you ask me, I’m gonna have to go to the website. It says something. It looks really pretty. That’s not- it’s not guiding me. Because instead, I would like to be having more conversations about, What are we all about? In the MSLD, the program that I direct, a Master’s in Leadership Development. What are we all about? What do we want to do for the students? What do we want to do differently? Those conversations I’m all for. I don’t care if that becomes a mission statement. By the time it’s become a mission statement, we probably have changed.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Right. Yeah, and so often, I’ve seen firsthand, you know, and again it is important for us to understand why do we exist, and what’s the impact we want to make, and what’s the work we want to do? And also, what kind of company do we want to be? And how do we want to treat the team members who choose to say yes to us, right? And how do we want to show up, you know, not just for our clients, but also for them. And a concept that I know you’re familiar with, that comes from the work of adaptive leadership is this idea of work avoidance, right, that sometimes we will spend time working on something that actually, it feels productive, it sure feels like we’re doing something, we’re having a lot of those meetings where, right, we’re finessing we’re making pretty. But really what we’re doing is avoiding potentially, depending on the situation, avoiding the actual work we need to do, avoiding the real work or maybe, a story that comes to mind, I was working with an organization, and there was a lot of people on sort of like the second layer of leadership, that’s like, “Our vision isn’t clear, our vision isn’t clear, our vision isn’t clear.” And they just kept saying that, right? So there’s all this effort, and everyone was brought together and we spent weeks, hours and hours crafting, crafting, crafting this vision statement. And the people who said it wasn’t clear, were part of that. And once I got, you know, communicated, I will never forget one of the leaders was just like, “Yeah, I just don’t, I don’t think it’s gonna, I just don’t think it’s clear.” And at that moment, I went, hold on. Is it that it’s not clear, because you actually just spent time crafting? I mean, you were part of it. And I had this moment, and I went, is it that it’s not clear, or is it that you don’t agree with it? And what they said was, “I don’t think that our senior leadership team can actually execute on that, and that’s what they believe our mission is.” That was the conversation that needed to happen. Right? But we spent all this work avoidance, doing this very tactical response to the situation.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
When people think “I don’t think we can execute it,” you probably can’t, because you came up with a vision that is not real, or not complete. It might even be true. It’s kind of like my bio, in the beginning of our conversation, everything you said is true. It’s just not complete. And perhaps the problem is, you know, we do a lot of work on personality. And I always say, don’t use those super simple personality tools – four colors, or whatever abomination you are trying to simplify things to. Yeah, I’m not fond of the colors one, but anyway, don’t try four box stuff, because – and people say that I want to make it simple, and personality is not simple. It’s just too complex for you to simplify. Okay, I’m going back to mission and vision statements. Perhaps the problem is that vision and mission are always changing and they are very complex. They include pretty things and perhaps not so pretty things. They can’t be put in a mission vision box, that will be fun for consumption. And we might even be able to come up with one statement that kind of symbolizes us kind of having a color or a logo, but that is not what is really going to give guidance to people. There’s much more under that mountain. We’re spending time at the top of the mountain without understanding the mountain. It’s kind of like I want a helicopter to drop me on the top of Mount Everest, and I just want to show that top there, but I don’t want to do all the work to get there, and I don’t want to understand the mountain. I just want the beautiful view. That doesn’t work that way.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. I mean, this is something that we’re so passionate about in our work, it’s one of our core pillars of what it means to be a chronically curious leader, is honor human complexity, right? That you know, again, like you said, I mean, we want to simplify the things that are complex and ever-changing and evolving, and whether that’s with an assessment to put people in a really simple category you know, categorization because that makes us feel good, but we’re missing this opportunity to pay attention. I love your language, Cris, of like, we want to be on top of the mountain, but we don’t want to understand the mountain, right? And it’s like, you know, I want a quick solution to the complexity that is you and each human is made up of their personality, their lived experiences, their values, right? And those are always evolving, and they’re always shifting. And again, it’s, you know, to me, I always feel like it goes back to what are the conversations we’re having with each other? To understand that, and to really listen to it, and to co-create something that serves everyone. And not just some, but all, especially as we talk about humanizing the workplace because the workplace doesn’t work for a lot of people. A lot of people, it doesn’t.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
No, no, and I’ve even had conversations with students on employee engagement for example, and one student very frankly told me at the end of the whole class about engagement, and psychological safety, and flow, and being so in love with your work, that it becomes part of your identity and all those good things, right? Oh, sorry, that’s Bambi.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hi Bambi!

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Bambi must be very upset at something. So, anyway, my students said at the end, “You know what, I don’t care about all that. I just want to be paid, and I want to be paid well, so that on weekends, and in my vacations, I can do the stuff that I really want to do.” And what I felt at that moment was profound sadness that this is their life, right? Like, this is this person’s life, and this is so many people’s lives, that they had to carve, This is what I do for work, and at work, I’m going to wear a mask, I’m going to be professional, I’m going to do professional things. There’s Bambi again, Bambi also disagrees.

Sarah Noll Wilson
We’re firm believers on this podcast that life will happen and as much as we want, right, you know, things to be quiet- oh, now Buffy is into it- to be perfect. What I mean, you know, what’s a better human moment than you got dogs, they’re really excited about something, and, yeah, so we just embrace that.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
I think that’s the best thing that the pandemic did for us is that we stopped meeting in sterile offices. All of the sudden our offices became messy, because we were at home and you know, the kids start saying something, and the dog, and the cat, and the whatever. And that’s, in a way, it’s so interesting. It just occurred to me that we’ve humanized work by taking people away from their offices. Which is darn fascinating. Like, all of the sudden of our colleagues are human beings, they have kids, they have dogs, they have light that doesn’t work, they have phone ringing, and that is not considered professional.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I think you just hit on something, I need to pause on that a second. You know, because obviously, there’s, you know, there’s been some that, you know, it’s like, there’s good and they’re bad, there’s consequences to it, you know, from a standpoint of blurring the lines, maybe not being able to separate yourself, perhaps even increased judgment or bias, right? Suddenly, if you’re in a toxic workplace that’s in your home, your safe- your sanctuary. But then there’s there has been incredible benefits of, I mean, because let’s be very clear that so much of how our work is still structured, so much of it, it comes from the industrial age, right? It comes from working with machines, it comes from, right, like we’re all about technical fixes. We’re all about efficiency, we’re all about, you know, and again, as humans, we’re complex, and there are days when we’re tired, and there’s times when we have, you know, different needs, and, or we have different sides of ourselves, and it is an interesting consequence or side effect, outcome maybe, because I’m thinking there was a client we were working with real shortly after sort of everything shut down in 2020. And they’re doing an all company meeting and he you know, he was, you know, a younger CEO. And literally, as they’re talking his little two year old just climbs on his lap. And, I remember thinking, and then of course, everyone’s like, “Oh, hi!” You know, saying her name because clearly this wasn’t the first time, and I remember having a reaction of like, oh, I’m not used to seeing that, right? Or I’m not used to seeing people in this position be a Daddy, be a Mommy be a, like an aunt, or a dog parent or a cat parent or whatever the case is. And, you know, a couple months later, I remember somebody that we were working with, she said, “One of the things I love about working remotely, is I get to be my whole self all the time.” And I said, “Say more about that.” And she said, “When I went to the office, from eight to five, I had to disconnect from everything else, of who I was, things that brought me joy, and now I can work and I can go garden, because I like to garden, and I have dogs, so I can be a dog parent, and I have a daughter, so I can call my Mom over work in a way that just feels easier.” And it was an interesting idea of “I get to be my whole self all the time.” That was so provocative for me. Right? And maybe that’s not, you know remote isn’t for everyone, so I’m not necessarily saying that, although I think it’s benefited, and not every industry obviously can do that. But that has always stuck with me of how, what’s the cost to us individually when we have to wear those masks, when we have to shut off who we are, right? And that goes across the board for everyone. And then if we look at groups that are historically and systemically marginalized, that’s even further, right? There’s an even greater cost to them when we think about the traditional work environment.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Yeah, I know, there’s a lot to process, and there’s so much that is going through my mind while you say that. I think the first thing, one question that you asked is what’s the cost, right? What’s the cost to someone if you have to hide part of yourself? I’m thinking of like, right now I’m working on a book on role. Role theory, the role of a leader and I’m working specifically on The Handmaid’s Tale, because of course I tried another pop –

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that about you.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
So it’s gonna be called, at least a tentative title, is “Against All Odds, Leadership and The Handmaid’s Tale.” And one of the things that I’m looking at is who is allowed to be a leader, who is a leader, what do we see as a leader? Right? What are the roles of the leader? The whole idea that, if for people who watch The Handmaid’s Tale, they switch, you don’t only have one leader, you have a zillion leaders that are helping each other. And in every leadership movie, or movie that you can learn about leadership, you’ll see that there’s not only one person, there’s the whole flock of geese, right? Helping each other and passing the baton to to each other. So what’s the cost, going back to the cost? What’s the cost of hiding part of yourself? It’s kind of like being an actor who was being given several roles, but almost like in a Twilight Zone show, you have to play the same role. I’m also thinking of, what’s that film that people everyday wake up in the morning and the the day starts again?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, Groundhog’s Day.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Groundhog’s Day, yes. So now imagine that you have, you’re a kaleidoscope, Sarah, right? You have Sarah who plays the accordion. You have Sarah, the- Nick’s wife. You have Sarah, the daughter, and the sister, and the aunt, and the person who love dip fests. You have the Sarah that I know, and the Cris and Sarah who like to buy domain names. And then you have the amazing Sarah who does the consulting, and who encourages people to be, to have a really deep and curious conversations, and Sarah, the author, and the leader of your organization. All these people are Sarah. But what we’re saying is, what I’m saying to you, instead of saying like Cat Stark, you will always have a seat at my table, and I will never ask you anything that is dishonored, dishonorable to you. What I’m saying is, I am buying eight to ten hours a day of your time, typically more. It could vary sometimes as well. And during those hours, you only have to wear one of those Sarah outfits. We only have one script. That’s the script you have day after day after day after day. You don’t get to get out of that script until you go home. So perhaps the issue is not, Is remote better or remote not better, because like you said, remote is better for some people and not for some others. In some industries it’s possible and some industries it’s not. But it’s like, what lessons did we learn from Covid that we could be applying so that people did not only have one script, one Sarah, one hat, and one setting. Think about the scenery, think about a play in which there’s only one scenery, guys, you can’t move from this setting. Everybody has a cube. How dehumanizing is a cube? Can we come up with any less of a nice –

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s various shades of oatmeal, that will never ever inspire me.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
No, I look at that thing and my imagination abandons me entirely. So what have we done to, it’s like, we haven’t changed since the Industrial Age, and we’re still- what we’re doing is creating boxes that look like the Charlie Chaplin movie. And we’re expecting people to be one person and have no other sides, and then we publish leadership guides with “Do one, do two, do three, do four, do five,” and I don’t know why we still have- you know, can I say bad words in your show, or is not allowed?

Sarah Noll Wilson
You sure can. Yeah, I mean, I don’t know, how bad are we going? Just say it and then if we have to bleep it out, we’ll –

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
I was gonna say just, why do we have still shitty leaders?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, yeah, no, that’s all right. Yeah.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Like, why do we still have shitty leaders if we have so many leadership books? And I would say, well, because the leaders are trying to simplify. Let’s go back to complexity. They’re trying to go to the top of the mountain without knowing the mountain. They’re trying to do 1234. And they are trying to roboticize – I don’t think this word exists? They’re trying to transform real human beings, multi-dimensional human beings, who have dogs like Bambi, and whose dog barks in the middle of nowhere, and who have kids, and who have other passions. They’re trying to make them single dimensioned single scripted, because if you’re not single dimension, single script, what’s my cue? I don’t, using the acting language, I don’t know what to answer to you because you didn’t use my cue. And I can’t improvise. I haven’t- wow. I have not learned to be an improvisational leader. I have not learned “Yes, And.” I have not learned to work with and embrace real human beings. I have learned, I have been given instructions to deal with robots just like you get when you buy a new computer set. And you have not said my cue, so I have no idea what to answer to you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. I mean, gosh, 100%, Cris, because- and we know that our brain wants to simplify the complex, like we know that about our brain, right? And our brain loves to solve problems. And, and also our culture is set up to reward, well, to reward people who are like, technically proficient, right? Like, it’s why we end up with a bunch of brilliant jerks who have positions of power and authority. And, you know, and instead of understanding and honoring not only the complexity of others, but also your own complexity, right? Self awareness, like seeking self awareness, still, I mean, it’s so important. It’s so important for your personal well being, and your personal clarity, and how you show up, but it’s, like, if I don’t understand me, and if I’m unable to understand my complexity, and sit with my complexity and my emotions, how the hell can I show up for you? Right? And some of the things that we see are, you know, things like emotions don’t belong in the workplace. I can’t tell you how many people, how many times I’ve been told that, and it’s like, I know that would make your life easier. Sure would. I mean, it would be easier if you could just be like, push a button, person do this, right? That’s why we like working with machines. But those emotions are there, that complexity is there. That person might be able to compartmentalize something that’s happening in their life for a little bit, but it’s still in them, right? If I’m taking care of a sick parent, that’s in me, that is in my heart, that is on my mind, that’s in my stomach. And instead of this, you know, I think one of the ways we can think about, because I hope there’s some people here going like, thinking about this and going well, “How do I do it?” Is the emotions, the human experience are there. And you can choose to ignore it, or you can really work to understand it and work to honor it, and spend that time, when I think about, and there’s a couple of things coming up for me, because I’m also consciously thinking about what are some moments of like reflection questions maybe people can think about, right as they’re hearing this, right? So if you are somebody who’s listening to this, and maybe you’re in a workplace that you’re struggling, or you don’t feel like maybe it’s a fit for you, right? Maybe a question to reflect on is like, what’s the one role? What are the roles that I’m being allowed to be, and what are the parts of myself that I can’t show up in? Right? And am I okay with that? And what’s the cost to me, right? Because, you know, sometimes I think there are situations where we might not be able to leave the situation, because there may be other opportunities. Maybe I live in a small town, and I’m a nurse, and there’s only one hospital, and so here’s where I am, right? But sometimes I think we can box ourselves in and not realize that we could, we could go after something different. We could go after another job. I feel like I’m rambling a bit, but that’s just because my brain is moving really, really fast as we talk about this.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Now you’re totally not rambling, you are expressing the complexity of the problem. Like, we are so desperate to even talk in a straight direction, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s a beautiful catch, you’re right! That’s like, I have to, yeah. Yes.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Right? Like because it’s not professional if you don’t go straight. If you meander a little bit. How many trips have you taken that all your roads were straight? You can’t climb the mountain Mount Everest going straight either. I’m not a mountain climber, but I’m sure you can’t. So it’s- the rambling is just making audible where your brain is going. You know? I think like one reflection, going from where you were, is if you want to humanize the workplace, I think you said something that reminded me of that is, be curious with yourself. I think you said something about “What roles am I playing?” So I would ask people who are listening to us, hey, who are you beyond your bio? What’s your bio? Take a look at your bio. Alright. And you know how after I heard my bio, I’m like okay, what about my Game of Sultans passion, that, you know, at exactly ten in the morning, every morning, I have to go hunting. I’m like, what is that for you? What is your Game of Sultans? What is your, what are your passions? The things that, what are the things that are not in your bio? Who are you as a complete human? Who is your Bambi? Who are your, who are your loved ones? What happens in your house that is not professional? Take a look at everything about you. And then reflection number two is now remember that everybody, every single person with whom you work has a world just like that. A different world, they are different mountains. They are different complexity worlds, right? But everybody has that. And you’re only seeing this little piece of it. It’s kind of like that story, that old, I think I’m now remembering the book. You know, that story of a bunch of people who saw pieces of an elephant –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, yeah. And they’re describing it like, “No, it’s like a snake and it’s a tail. And it’s no, it’s like a tree,” and right, they’re not seeing the full picture. Just what’s right in front of them.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Exactly. So nobody sees the exact, the exact elephant right? We’re doing just that in the workplace. We are allowing people one little cubicle, and by the way, don’t make it too personal because that doesn’t look professional. So organizations don’t even like people to personalize their cubicles. Oh my gosh, you can’t bring your dog or your emotional support animal because what organization would have that? And by all means wear a uniform. Even companies that don’t have uniforms, they want you to dress a particular way.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You bet. I mean, I was told when I when I first started speaking. I had a few different people tell me, but I remember one in particular, somebody said, “Sarah people won’t take you seriously unless you’re wearing a suit.” And anyone who knows me knows that I’m not a suit person. So I was like, okay, boy, I bet, I guess I should wear a suit. And I’ll never forget, I was speaking at a conference and my friend Gina, afterwards, she came up to me and she said, “That was amazing, and you look, you look good, Sarah, but you don’t look like you.” And it was such a moment of, right, I was feeling like I had to fit myself into a box. And then you know, was like, okay, I’ll make sure I’m clean. You know, I’ll shower, I will, right? You know, I will- I don’t- inappropriate even, that is a conversation. But like, pushing against those rules we’ve created, right? These rules we’ve created for how we’re supposed to- so anyway, so that’s what’s coming up for me. But I want to go back to what you were unpacking, because it was really powerful.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Yeah. It’s like, the whole point is that, going back to role theory – and role theory, by the way, famous author Biddle – old, 1975-1979, is some of his writings, and then it went on from there. And actually, when the father I guess, or a major pioneer in employee engagement, who is William Kahn, wrote about engagement in his, I think it was originally his dissertation – He worked from a fellow called Goffman, who’s even older, and was all based on theatrical metaphors. So the theatrical metaphors that I’m using come from role theory and come from Goffman. They use terms such as script and setting, audience and so on, right? So that’s why I’m using that. So going back to that, you’re only seeing one act of, one act of a play, in which that actor is only interacting with one other actor. And you’re not seeing anything else. You’re not seeing any other plays, you’re not seeing any other sceneries, you’re not seeing any other moments. It’s like you got that little piece of the play, but think you understand that person. And we created this whole Broadway setting in our workplaces. It’s a pretty boring Broadway setting, it would be a terrible Broadway show, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
It wouldn’t be interesting at all.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
It’s almost like somebody above said, hey, let’s create the most boring, sterile looking, ugly, carpeted, excessively cold and sterile place that looks like a dystopian future, instead of looking from a place of joy. And let’s call that the workplace, and let’s put people in little boxes in there, and let’s tell them exactly what to wear, and by the way, we have a very low budget for for outfits, so it only has to be that one type of outfit. You can just vary the colors. And then let’s tell them what to say, and then we know what to say back because-

Sarah Noll Wilson
We have the script.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
We have the script, we have the books to tell us what to do. And then at the end of it all, let’s be surprised that engagement hasn’t changed. And that people don’t feel human.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, that they don’t feel safe, or the fact that people are, you know, the great resignation is happening. Right? It’s, you know, like, it shouldn’t surprise us, right? And so then, you know, what happens is, “Oh our engagement scores are low, well, we better do something,” right? And we jump to that simplified, technical fix. And, you know, and for me, I feel like when I look at the companies that I have the privilege to work with, or observe that I would say, do it better than I’ve seen it, it always comes down to one, I’m trying not to oversimplify, but there’s one core consistent thing, and that is a deep care, like a deep care for the people that they work with. And it’s consistent. It isn’t conditional, right? And what I mean by that is, you know, sometimes maybe we’ll hear people, “Maybe they’re having high turnover. Well, people just don’t want to work, or they should just be grateful that they have a job.” I mean, these are real things I’ve heard people say, and it’s like, well that tells me that you don’t actually value them as a human. You don’t actually value what they’re bringing to the table. So is it that they don’t want to work, or is it that they don’t want to work for you and at your company? And not that that’s going to be the case for all situations, but the companies that do it really well are the ones who, you know, they understand how important that psychological safety is. They understand and are working to constantly look at what are the ways that we might be creating harm, you know? They genuinely, they aren’t checking a box when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion, they’re genuinely doing the work of reflecting and unpacking their relationship with race and power and all of that. And, again, it comes back to like, genuine, genuine care. And it’s interesting, because, as we’ve been talking, and I hadn’t, I hadn’t made this connection, but that idea of like, what do we lose? You know, we lose our sense of self, I’ve experienced it. I know you’ve experienced it. I, you know, had to fit into a box was doing a- I mean, even my boss at the time knew that this wasn’t a fit, but they were like, we love you, and you have so much to offer, we just don’t know what the hell to do with you. But like I lost a lot of confidence. You know, you hear stories, Minda Harts who just released this amazing book, “Right Within,” and she talks about healing from racial trauma, and how much a sense of doubt comes into play, right? When you aren’t able to bring your whole self, when you aren’t- when you’re experiencing a toxic or traumatic work environment. And the thing that’s coming up for me is, at work, just as we are in our personal world, we’re in relationship with each other. Right? It’s a relationship. And even though we might think it’s transactional, or want it to be transactional, we as humans, desire, connection and belonging, and safety. And, you know, if we look at it through the lens of say, like marriages, for example. So, Dr. John Gottman, he’s, you know, kind of a grandfather if you will, the Gottman Institute, they do a ton of research on marriages and relationships. And one of the studies that was so fascinating to me, is they can predict with incredible accuracy, incredible accuracy, how likely it’ll end in divorce, how likely if it doesn’t end in divorce, it’ll be unhappy, right, within just 10 minutes of observing a couple. Incredible accuracy. And I’m going to share, like what they found is like one of the key things and then we’ll apply it right to what we’re talking about. It was the number of times the people turn towards each other. And what I mean by that is not physically, but emotionally turn towards each other and their needs. So for example, if you have a spouse that likes baseball, and let’s use Nick and I for an example. You know, I married in to a Kansas City Royals fan. I wasn’t, you know, family, I wasn’t a huge baseball fan. But let’s say Nick’s like, “Oh, yeah, the Royals are on,” and my response is to turn away and go “Ugh, there you go again, with the baseball. Here we go again,” right? That’s the turning away. And what I’m telling him is he’s not important to me, and what’s important to him isn’t important to me, right? But if I turn towards, it’s honoring and acknowledging, right? And getting curious about, maybe celebrating, supporting. Oh, this is important to you, so I’m gonna turn towards you. And so apply that to the workplace of when we don’t turn towards each other, in our full, kaleidoscopic, is that a word? Nature, right? And we aren’t, we’ll never have those really deep, like healthy relationships, and they don’t need to look the same as romantic, or friendship, or whatever. But, my God, if I’m going to be spending fifty hours a week with somebody, and you’re going to be on my brain for years, I at least want to feel safe with you.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
I’m pausing here because I’m thinking. There are two big thoughts in my head from everything that you’ve said. The first is that individualism is not human. Humans are tribal, right? Our past is social. The culture of complete independence that that we have woven here and that each person is an island is not, does not match our evolutionary past. The second thing that occurred to me when you said that the people that you worked with, that you had, were lucky enough to work with, I can’t remember your words, were caring, and you didn’t really want to oversimplify. Perhaps there are some things in life that are super complex and kaleidoscopic, right? Understanding the full Sarah, understanding the full Cris takes more than just reading a bio. We’re much more than that. So that part is complex, right? But some things are perhaps simple to be allowed to be complex. Here’s what I mean by that. So you know, my daughter, Maggie, right. You know, my wonderful daughter, Maggie, of whom I’m so, so, so, so proud. When Maggie was little, the pediatrician asked us, “So what’s your, what are your discipline processes, right? Like, how do you discipline your child?” And Mel and I looked at each other, like, what’s that? Like, do you discipline? And then he went on, like, “What are your house rules?” And then I had an answer to that. I said, “Okay, we have two rules in the house. Rule number one, is you will be kind to people and animals. And rule number two is, every Wildermuth who needs a hug will get one, no questions asked.”

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Those were the only two rules, I get a little teary, that I used to bring up my amazing daughter. Those were the only two rules. Now back to the workplace. We will see the whole of you – like I’m imagining Catelyn, talking to Brienne. You’re coming to work with me – with me, not for me. You’re coming to work with me. We are going to be a tribe, or a team, you will- I will see the whole of you. You will bring the whole of you. I will bring the whole of me. And we will care. Everything else, there is no script. There are no books. So that’s what I mean by the simplicity that allows complexity. My rules for Maggie, why were those the only two rules? Because pretty much anything can fall into “We will be kind to people and animals,” think about that. You’re throwing a tantrum at three years old, you’re not being kind. You’re being unkind to a friend, you’re not being kind, right? Like pretty much everything that goes wrong, it’s because people are not being kind. So we actually had, I would love to see a mission statement like that. A mission statement for each other. We will see the whole of you, bring the whole of you, we will bring the whole of us, let’s add Cat Stark, for good measure. You will always have a seat at my table, and you will never be asked to do something that will dishonor you. We will care. Great.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Who wouldn’t want that?

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
I know. Right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right? Like who wouldn’t want that? And, you know, and it makes me think about how many people recently, right, that we’ve heard from that have left jobs, and you know, because they didn’t feel valued, that they didn’t have a seat at the table, right? That they couldn’t be their whole selves. And you know, and part of that work is also the side of it of, and I need to know when I’m not honoring your whole self, or I need to catch when I’m not, or I need to write like because, you know, I think you know, so many people have beautiful intentions. And yet there are things we can do that are harmful, intentionally, unintentionally, right? And doing that work of- I, you know, I think about I think about my vows a bit as we’re talking. You know, and one of the commitments Nick and I made to each other is to start each morning with good intent, and to end each night without regret. And that doesn’t mean that there won’t be harm, and it doesn’t mean that there won’t be regrettable events, right? You know, because that’s also part about being in relationship with each other is regrettable events are inevitable. But do we take the time to repair and heal? Are we able to be open to and receive when we get feedback, right? That’s, you know, indicative of us, not, you know, honoring the whole person or, or whatever the case might be, you know. And I think that for people who are listening to this, we’re big, we’re big fans on the team, of a courageous audit, right? So it’s really easy to be like, yeah, I do that. Yeah, I would do that. Yeah, I definitely. But one of the most powerful questions we can ask ourselves is, what are the ways in which I might not be caring for my team members? Like, the people that I serve, the people that I’m working with? What are the ways, in what ways that what am I doing or not doing, that might be putting someone into a box, that might be putting them into a role? What are the things I’m doing that might be creating or is creating an unsafe environment? And I you know, as someone who often is using these questions for myself, that’s really hard to ask and it’s even harder to answer. But it’s so important. Because if you know, in creating a workplace for humans, right, we have to own that. We’re not perfect, we’re gonna mess up. Right? There’s going to be regrettable events, but am I- if I’m committed to you, then that means I’m willing to do the work needed. Always. To maintain right like and to protect that safety for the both of us. I wish, I would love to see, you know, more people reflect on- There she is, hi Bambi- not just like, “Yeah, but I care. I’m a good person.” Because there are times when we’re tired. And there are times when we’re in protection mode, and there are times, and we have biases, and we have been cultivated in this culture, right? This very dominant, you know, like culture where things like perfectionism, right? And sense of urgency, and no emotions at the workplace, and all of this from a white dominant culture of like, what corporate America is so founded on. That’s in a, you know, I worked, I worked with a coach for a while. And one of the things that was so provocative for me, as I was like, exploring just my relationship with these rules, right? The rules of what work needed to look like, and I told her, I said, “What if I’m too empathetic?” And she said, “Well, what would that look like? And is that actually possible?” But I was so interesting to like, unpack, and I was like, “Oh, no that’s-” and she’s like, “You know, these rules, these roles, these scripts, these boxes – she said, if you think of yourself like a garden, and yes, you want to nurture the roses, like you want to be the person who is carrying and honors complexity, and you, you know, make it safe for people.” She’s like, “So many of those rules, and roles, and beliefs, are the weeds and they’re really intertangled with your roots, and it’s not enough to pull it out and to say, I don’t believe in this anymore, because like, they’re in there. And it’s these, it’s every moment when you can have a micro incision, you know,” and she’s like, “And it’s just gonna be micro incision after micro incision, until eventually, some pieces of it will,” but she’s like, it’s really, I mean, you called me out on it earlier, when I was like, oh sorry, I’m rambling. You’re like, isn’t that interesting? That to be effective means we can only talk in linear ways like, oh, interesting. Let’s cut that little weed out. And I’m going to keep cutting it out.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
And perhaps we need to be gentle with ourselves, and people listening, too, because what is occurring to me when you talk about all the weeds and all the rules you were given, all the scripts you were given, all the boxes you were given, we have an entire system that is much bigger than us. This is, to challenge this process is not, will not happen just with Sarah working, or Cris working. It’s a massive cultural change. And cultural change is extremely difficult to obtain.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What, we can’t just do a workshop and slap up like, words on the wall? Isn’t that what-? I’m sorry.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Yeah, like, you have to look at everything, right? Like one thing that I was thinking of here is that our time. The way that we measure our time. First of all, we’re very rigid with our time, right? Like we have Outlook calendars and what’s the default of Outlook? Half an hour. Sometimes it’s even fifteen minutes, but it’s usually half an hour. So it’s, you can’t understand the kaleidoscope of a person, and you can’t understand what you’ve done wrong, or in what ways if you are a leader, you can’t understand in what ways you are making somebody unsafe in a half an hour conversation. You just can’t, unless you’re some kind of a genius. There’s Bambi, Bambi doesn’t like that idea, either. We need more time. So then, it’s a matter of, what are leaders being asked to do with their time? How much part of their time, like one thing that I would ask is, how much of your time, leader listening, are you spending controlling people? Would you spend part of that time understanding people and helping them be safe and creative? Would that reduce the amount of time that you have to spend controlling? How much time are you being asked to do crap? Sorry? Like, mission statements, and things, reports after reports after reports. Like, how much time are we spending reporting? In fact, it can be like a good exercise for people, even though it’s painful, to track your time, use a- hey, I have a tech toy –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Do you have a tech toy for that? We’ll put that in the show notes.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Oh! Yeah, there is something called Toggle. There’s a free one called Tracker that I use to track my time, it really helps me. And then you can issue a report at the end. How much time are you actually spending as a leader? Understanding your people? First, all the other crap that you’re probably given to do. And maybe understanding how like, do an audit of your time for a month. Take a look at that report. Your problem could be right there. You are only allowing yourself the time – You’ve gone to see, I don’t know, the, I’m thinking of The Circle of Life. You’ve gone to see the Lion King on Broadway and when they start, you leave. Because that’s the only time – and you don’t see the rest of the show, you have no idea what’s happening afterwards. But you went to write a report, and then to have a meeting with your boss, and to have a meeting with the other boss, and then to go to a strategic planning meeting, and then to discuss your company’s vision.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s a good callback, Cris. In the improv world would call that a callback. And to your point like, and some of that you might not have control over because of the expectations of the system, or the expectations of your leaders. And when we do work, when we do work with, you know, teams and leaders about, you know, how to build, really build those relationships, right? those committed, you know, that committed relationship with each other, one of the things we often hear is like, “That’s just not efficient.” Because again, our culture, right, because so much of our work is, you know, like its output, its output, its efficiency, its efficiency. And, you know, my colleague, Teresa, she made the point one time of like, I hear that, but the more time you spend up front, on a relationship, actually, the faster and further you can go together. Like when you invest that time, when you take more than the half an hour, when you’re- when you really, like, it’s actually more efficient in the long run to dedicate time to building relationships and understanding your people. And, you know, when we talk about, you know, like remote environments, a lot of companies are making the shift for the first time and that understanding the individual needs is one of the most important skills and muscles they have to build. Because before when we were in- oh, Cris, this is all coming to me- like when when we were in a box, and we knew the rule, and I knew the task, like I only had to worry about one set of rules for everyone. But now, well, I’ve got different needs, right? I’ve got different challenges. I have, and so it’s forcing us to have to pay attention to the individual. It’s forcing us to pay attention to how we’re interconnected, right? It’s forcing us to think about the relationship, and relationships so much are about, you know, like, understanding and meeting needs and values and all of that. And then like, that’s one of the big challenges we see in companies that are moving to remote first is like, I don’t understand the rules of the game, because they’re different for every person, you know? Or I’m working with people in different time zones now that I never did before, because we can open up and we can recruit for more effort. And it’s like, yeah, I mean, this is a beautiful opportunity for us. I think that this disruption has opened up this opportunity for us to finally be as intentional about our relationships as we should have been before, but now it’s like a non negotiable.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Perhaps one question that we can ask is, how efficient would you be? Can you envision a world in which you spent no time in control? Control has just disappeared from your life because you spent so much time on relationship, and psychological safety, and inclusion in a world in which your people are giving, putting their swords at your feet and saying I am totally committed to you. You’ve created an environment in which that person feels safe to be them. Yeah, that takes time. It takes work. It takes real work. But now you no longer have to control everything the person is doing. Because it’s gonna happen, and it’s going to happen more brilliantly, then there’s going to be a tree from that box, and not the little grass you thought would grow there. Like, not only you don’t have to control what you asked the person to do, what the person will do will probably surpass your wildest imaginations. So that organization now is an organization of humans who are allowed to be freaking brilliant. Each of them with their entire selves, because you took the time to follow one simple rule that will show caring.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Cris – Ah, I love it. We could keep going on but we won’t, because I know we’ll have you back. I do. There’s a question that I asked all of our guests. And I want to give you some space to respond to that. You know, as we think about the conversations we have with ourselves and others, and how that can shape our world. What is a conversation that you’ve had with yourself or with someone else that was transformative?

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
So I can think of, even when we think about the conversations with ourselves there. Lately, I’ve taken into another tech toy. VR Quest 2 has a meditation tool that asks me amazing questions every morning, and those conversations with myself are really cool. But talking about the workplace, there was a situation in which me and another coworker, who happened to be- I reported to them. We had a terrible relationship. I was always- it’s almost like, whenever I see that person, I would get all my weapons out. By the way, I don’t do weapons, but you know, all my psychological weapons. I would put an armor over me. I would protect everything so that the only Cris she sees is the one on that biography. And even that biography might be too long, I’ve been told that I meander some, so let’s make sure that that biography is absolutely succinct. And I was getting more and more narrow, more and more little, more and more flat, in order to interact with them. And of course, that was making me acutely anxious and uncomfortable. And then, in order to protect myself, I kept bringing weapons out. And of course, I don’t know what was going through their head, but their relationship with me was clearly uncomfortable to them as well. And what it took was a third party, another person who knew us both and who liked us both, and who thought we both were amazing humans and who couldn’t understand why we were like, fighting a buck in the boxing ring every time we met. What’s up with these two? They’re perfectly lovely people outside of whenever they’re with each other. They’re nasty, like, what the heck, right? And this person led a conversation, like facilitated a mediated conversation between us. And we realized in that conversation that both of us were running, were had all sorts of bad assumptions about the other. Like, I thought she hated me. Well, I gave it a she. It was a she. I thought she hated me because of some things she had said. In reality it was somebody else who had said them, she was just trying to protect me and trying to intercede. There were all sorts of things that she was no- she had no clue were bothering me. They did not bother her, they bothered somebody else, like some higher up told her to tell me, you know, one of those things. I’m thinking she’s going to the higher up speaking against me, and in reality, she is just trying to protect me from the higher ups. Like, there were all sorts of assumptions. And ever since we had that conversation, that open conversation in which I said, I’m annoyed, I’m pissed, I’m hurt, I’m blah, blah, blah, blah, I vomited the entire list. And she’s like, no, that’s not true, and blah, blah, blah. We’ve had a beautiful relationship ever since. The most supportive, we’re still very different people, we still have very different realities, but it’s been lovely. It’s been supportive and lovely. And it’s, you know, a colleague that I will, that I really deeply respect and will always cherish having worked with. And all it took was one person to say, let me sit these two humans down because there’s something wrong.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And also the willingness on both of your parts to receive it. Right? And to be open to that. And to go, this relationship matters enough for us to figure this out. I love that. I love that so much. And I’m assuming there will be a lot of people who might resonate with that story. Cris, it’s been such a pleasure, I assume there will be people, people will want to know how to connect with you, so what’s the best way to connect with you, and the work that you do?

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Ah, well, I would say, feel free to contact me in my personal email, which is Cris at theleadercampus.com. You can reach me out on LinkedIn, if you want to send me a message or whatever. I think those are the two best ways to connect with me. Or connect with me through you. I don’t care. I’m always open to conversations,

Sarah Noll Wilson
We will put, we’ll put all of Cris’s contact information in the show notes. I highly recommend that you connect with her, I know that she’s very active on LinkedIn, and is just a wealth of knowledge. I know that I am, I am certainly different and better because of knowing you, and I hope you all feel the same after this conversation. So Cris, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Cris Wildermuth
Thank you, Sarah. That was absolutely great. It was so much fun.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It was. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations. I know that I thoroughly enjoyed the opportunity to connect and explore this topic with my colleague, Dr. Cris Wildermuth. As we explore the idea of humanizing the workplace, and something I’m going to hold on to was that moment when she caught me apologizing for how my brain works, you know, because some elements of our sort of dominant culture of communication comes from a very neurotypical way of communicating and thinking. And for those of us who are neurodivergent, right, from an ADHD perspective, from an autism perspective, our brain just works differently. And I just thought that was a really beautiful catch about honoring the complexity of humans. So that was a real gift that she gave me. For more information on how to hold deeper, more meaningful conversations with others in your workplace, or if you would simply like to connect with us, please visit us at Sarahnollwilson.com. You can also connect with me on social media, you’ll find me on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, just search Sarah Noll Wilson. You can also pick up a copy of my newest book, “Don’t Feed the Elephants,” where books are sold, to help you overcome your art of avoidance. If you liked what you heard, and want to support this work, I invite you to please visit us on patreon.com/ConversationsonConversations, where not only your support will sustain this podcast and the amazing team behind it, but you’ll also get access to just some, you know, fun swag and also content specific things that will only be available for our Patreon supporters. If you have questions, if you want to share with us what resonated, or you’re curious about what other cool tools and technology that Cris is following lately, we would love to hear from you, so you can email us at podcast at sarahnollwilson.com. You can also follow the podcast on Twitter @ConvosOnConvos. Please rate, review, and subscribe to the show, that is what helps us know what is working, it also is what helps us get exposed to other people. You can do so on iTunes, Spotify, and other podcast platforms. And if you’re enjoying the show, if you’re learning something, if there’s something about this that is resonating for you and you think others might enjoy that as well, please help us spread the word. You can tell a friend, you can post about it on social media, you can hire an airplane to, you know, do a cloud, a cloud design. Whatever feels right and real for you. We want these conversations to reach as many ears as possible, so helping people find the podcast is another great way to show your support. Finally, a shoutout to our incredible team who makes this podcast possible. While I am the face and the voice right now you see, big shout out to Drew Noll and Nick Wilson for editing and producing the show, to Olivia Reinert for helping us with transcriptions, and Kaitlyn Summitt-Nelson for all of your marketing support. And a final thanks to Dr. Cris Wildermuth. She is a wealth of knowledge, she is somebody who lights up my eyes and pushes me to think beyond what I could ever think is possible, and I always learn something incredible when I’m in conversation with her. And just finally, when we can change the conversations that we have with ourselves, and with others, we can change the world. So with that, thank you all so much.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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