Episode 004: A Conversation on Boundaries with Farah Harris, MA, LCPC

In this week’s ad-free episode of Conversations on Conversations, I chat with Farah Harris, MA, LCPC, on creating and holding boundaries, the power of emotions in the workplace, and how we can all live well and thrive while working.

About our guest

Farah Harris, MA, LCPC, is a psychotherapist, certified neuroscience coach, and Workplace Belonging and Well-Being Champion dedicated to disrupting toxic work environments. Her mission is to help individuals and organizations decrease symptoms of stress and burnout, elevate their emotional intelligence, and improve morale by implementing strategies to create engagement, increase retention, and create healthier work culture.

Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Welcome to Conversations on Conversations, the show where each week we have a conversation about a topic that can help us all have more meaningful dialogue with ourselves and with other people, to a build more powerful relationship. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, and this week I am so stupid excited for our guest. So, let me- I’m going to give you the formal bio, and then I’m going to tell you about why I’m so excited. So it is my honor and pleasure to introduce to you all, Farah Harris. She is the founder of WorkingWell Daily, is a psychotherapist certified neuroscience coach, and workplace wellness champion who is dedicated, hear this out people, dedicated to disrupting toxic work environments. Her personal mission is to help individuals and organizations decrease symptoms of stress and burnout, I think we can all use a little bit of that right now, elevate their emotional intelligence and improve morale by implementing strategies to create engagement, increase in retention, and create healthier work cultures. Now, the reason I’m so excited is Farah has very quickly become one of my favorite people to follow, to learn from, and I’m very fortunate to call her friend. And I tell you every time that I have a conversation with her, I always leave with some sort of mic drop moment. So I’m excited to introduce, hi, Farah!

Farah Harris
Hey, sweetheart. How are you, Sarah?

Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m so excited. Like, I’m so excited. I know there will be people listening to this but I’m just- I’m like busting, I’m busting. So let’s just start, you know, I gave the formal introduction, but, you know, what would you like the audience to know about who you are?

Farah Harris
Oh, goodness, um, well, if we’re going with what you just shared, I would say that to be a business owner, an entrepreneur, I came into this very reluctantly. So, I was not the kid that had like, the lemonade stand and was like, yes, this is what I’m going to do. I was like, no, I can work for people. I want to be able to just do my job, and go home, and not think about anything. And so I reluctantly became a private practice owner, and I would say, though, for creating WorkingWell Daily, that actually was intentional. Like, I actually was excited about coming into a space where I’m going beyond the couch, you know, just that one on one therapy, and actually addressing people’s needs on a larger scale within the workplace, because we just don’t work well here in the United States.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That, that’s- we sure don’t, I mean, that’s-

Farah Harris
We do not. And many of us don’t live well, because we don’t work well. And so, when I really sat down and thought about what my clients were coming in with, what my husband was dealing with, and I come from corporate, so that’s another thing. So I wasn’t always a therapist, I didn’t even think about going into anything related to psychology. I was an econ major. A pre-law on — Yes, yes, yes, yes. So, it is always interesting how everything works together. You know, I always say that, you know, our life is just a whole bunch of recycled pieces that create something brand new. And so it is- it is interesting to see how I’m here, but I am grateful that I’m here to do this work, because I care about I care about people, and people living their- the best life that they can live.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hmm, yeah. That’s, you know, that’s one of the phrases I love whenever I hear you say it, is like, we have to be able to live well. And, you know, and what does that mean? And there’s a couple of things that you shared that I’d like to explore because one, I love the language also of being reluctant, like the reluctant business owner. And also just hearing that journey from right, like, you didn’t start in the mental health field, you didn’t start in the workplace wellness field. And I know, right, there are people who are listening to us right now who maybe don’t know if they’re on the right path, or are unsure. And so I’m curious just to, you know, paint the picture of what was your journey of coming from an econ major, right, to becoming a therapist. And now the work that you’re doing as an expert in belonging and workplace wellness.

Farah Harris
I really want to say, hindsight being 2020, that I have been always utilizing some version of emotional intelligence to address my well being. So, for those who are listening, who are wondering like, am I in the right place? That self check self awareness to go- I always think about Marie Kondo and “Does it spark joy?” So it’s to ask that question like, does this spark joy for me? Are there aspects of it that are interesting, but maybe it’s the environment that’s not necessarily sparking joy, or maybe this is the right- the right field, wrong company, that kind of stuff. So I think, as I went into my first law class, and I was like, “Hell to the no, I can’t go to law school, this is not for me.” I was so thinking, you know, that I was gonna be the real life, Claire Huxtable, you know, I was gonna be this corporate attorney, I was gonna be amazing. And yeah, I realized how much I did not enjoy the whole academics around law. And then I did take a psych class in college, and I hated it. Thought this was stupid. So, I was like, why would I ever do this? And so, but as I was saying earlier, that I think it’s the opportunity to be open to trying new things. So here’s another thing, Sarah, that you didn’t know about your friend, I also went into fashion design, because I was an artist, and I was-

Sarah Noll Wilson
And this is why I love you.

Farah Harris
And I drew, and I did all of these creative things. And then as I tried my hand at fashion design, I realized that I enjoyed the creative part, but still felt that my left brain was like, “Dude, but what, where’s the business knowledge? You know, how do we handle it?” And that’s when I switched into marketing. So it literally is the permission that you give yourself to try. And while you were trying, to ask yourself, how does this make me feel? And I think that has been what has helped me get to where I am now. So when I think about WorkingWell Daily, like even when I came up with the name, like something in me was like, oh, yes, this is it. And when I thought about my private practice, I was like, “Um, we’re just gonna call it ‘Farah Harris Therapy’ right now.” Like, there wasn’t even a name I could connect me to it. Because something in me just told me like, I don’t know if this is necessarily where you want to anchor yourself. And so, it is really asking ourselves the question, how does it make me feel?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hmm, you know, one of the things that I just I want to tease out for the people who are listening, because, you know, part of the intention, and the goal with this show is to, you know, have really great conversations, but also to leave with some really specific tools. And, you- you know, we have, we have a philosophy, Theory is great, tools are better. And I want to go back to that question that you asked yourself, and also, you know, invite it yourself. And, this is something that people can think about, how can I give myself permission to just try, right? And just- and to learn, and to experiment? And because I think sometimes it can be so easy to feel like we have to have it all figured out, or maybe our identity is tied into something that we’ve done. You know, as a former theatre person, right, everyone knew me as, “Oh, Sarah is the theatre person,” right? And so when I stepped away from that, I had to step away from an identity, and I love that invitation that we can ask ourselves, you know, whether it’s with a job, whether it’s with a relationship, whether it’s with showing up differently. It’s just giving ourselves permission to try. So I just, I wanted to highlight that a bit for people to think about how they could apply that to their own world.

Farah Harris
And I know that is not necessarily easy for everyone. I think we have to go back. So this is a therapist in me- we have to go back and look at our environment, our family of origin, were we affirmed to try, you know? Were we affirmed to ask questions? And so to even be an adult and say, “Oh, I give myself permission to try something new.” Or ask myself, “How does it make me feel?” Especially if we have experiences of any type of trauma, where our voice in a way was taken away from us, it may be a more difficult exercise to do, to ask ourselves, “How does it make me feel?” Because you may have actually learned not to ask yourself, or to honor your emotions, because other people didn’t. So it- there’s so much there, right? And so it’s not just as easy as, oh, yeah, just “Does it spark joy?” Let me just ask my focus question, you know? Because there’s so many people that go, ooh, I mean, I felt anxiety, or I felt shame, or I felt, you know, something, but they may not even have the emotional vocabulary to even identify what emotion they’re experiencing, based off of their history and their family of origin and their own experiences. So it is also to give permission to give yourself grace as you learn how to implement the exercise of this EQ. Domain and competency.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That- no, I appreciate that. Because I know that that’s, you know, that’s come up in our conversations, I know that that’s also a way that you approach the work, is to really invite people to get curious about when they’re struggling with something, when they’re experiencing something, when maybe they feel stuck, or whatever it is, to just get curious, and not from a place of blaming, but to just go, you’re- who you are has been shaped by a lot of different things, and there are stories we’ve been told, right? Like, you know, you pointed out there’s maybe trauma we’ve experienced, how were we raised? What was the culture we were brought up in? And sometimes I certainly feel that, or I see that, that we sort of miss exploring, or don’t realize how powerful it can be to reflect on what has brought me to this point? And I’m curious if you can just expand on why that’s such an important practice. Because I know that that is something that is a real important practice you work on with people, and it’s something that I’ve certainly taken away from our many conversations.

Farah Harris
Yeah, it’s a way of loving yourself, right? Because the more you’re curious about who you are, the more you’re able to find, and discover these different parts of you that you may have not experienced or stewarded well, you know. And it’s not any fault of your own, exactly what you said, we have so much that has made us who we are. And so who you are today, you didn’t wake up like this, you know? So it always blows my mind where people are like, “Yeah, this is just who I am.” Okay, but why? Why are you like this? And to not just use it as an excuse, but also to your point, not to have any blame or judgment, because how does that really serve us? You know, so it’s really to ask ourselves, okay, this is how I am today, because of, and then to be open to looking at that narrative history that is who you are, so that if you want to be someplace else, like you, I say that you’re the editor, you can control-alt-delete. You know, do whatever it is that you want to do so that you can go like, “Ah! I don’t like the way the story is going.” And so if I want to change the narrative going forward, I have to understand the story that brought me to this place right now. And that’s scary, which is why, you know, as a therapist, I know- I can connect dots very quickly, you know, when someone comes in with an issue. But I also have to be very sensitive and tender to the fact that I have to meet them where they are, and that I can see where the emotional strength is. But some stuff is like, wow, how are you not seeing this? This is glaring. Why you show up this way? But we find ways, our brain, especially, finds ways to protect ourselves from pain. And so if I noticed that a person just does not have the emotional strength to address an issue, I have to slowly walk them to that awareness and that awakening. And we all have to do that. And so the stronger we are, the more emotionally resilient we become, the more we’re able to tackle those parts of ourselves that we either ignored or are uncomfortable with, or are like “Dude, I totally didn’t know that I loved puzzles.” You know, like, just discovering some novelty about ourselves. And so it’s not always bad to peel the layers you know? There’s we’re like onions, there’s so much underneath, and yeah. So the practice of that, I think is just so important, because to work well, to live well, is to be well. And so that is kind of part of my like, tagline for WorkingWell Daily is to “Be well, do well, live well,” but you have to understand the being, and that helps you understand why you do things the way that you do, why you live the way that you live. And if you’re not liking what you’re doing, and if you’re not liking how you’re living then, you need to check, well how am I being? You know, what is happening within me, you know?

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know what’s coming up for me? Is, you know, without maybe taking that time to reflect, or maybe not having the opportunity to work with a therapist like yourself, I’m very pro therapy that times that- you know, I think I will always have a therapeutical relationship with somebody because you know, just like you said, sometimes they can see patterns that, because I’m so in the weeds, or I’m on the, you know, like I would say I’m on the dance floor, so I can only see what’s in front of me, right, they can see that pattern. And you know, and one thing, especially right now, because after the last two years, right, and we’re still in this time of the trauma from the pandemic, and all the losses, and everything that we’ve experienced, is we know that so many people are experiencing this re-clarification, or perhaps rediscovering, right? It’s- you know, a friend of mine described it as like, everything got unplugged all at once, and now we’re figuring out what to plug back in. And the thing that was coming up for me is, you know, without taking the time to reflect on where I’ve been, there were traps that I fell into of thinking that that was the only way to be, because it was all I knew. Right? And how powerful it is to see that as a possibility, right? That’s one way. And you know, and so- so I guess where I’m going with this is, you know, there’s a lot of- and we’ve heard- we’re hearing it from people, even in posting, like, questions that people had for you. People are going through a real time of reflection and getting clear about what’s important to them. And that can be scary, or uncomfortable. And so I’m curious, you know, what would you say to the people who are realizing that maybe they’re questioning or getting curious about “Is this who I want to be? Is this where I- is this what I want to do? Is this how I want to show up? Is this who I want to spend time with?” Right? Like, some real big questions are coming up. That might be- that might be a big ask for you, but I’m curious, like, what comes up for you?

Farah Harris
Be prepared for grief. Okay?

Sarah Noll Wilson
So glad that was the first thing out of your mouth.

Farah Harris
Yes, be prepare for grief because there’s going to be some letting go. Whether it’s letting go of habits and patterns, ways of thinking. A very brilliant person that I know mentioned something about, you know, Is it a rule? Or– I don’t know, someone by the name of Sarah, I think?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Huh. She sounds really smart.

Farah Harris
She’s very smart. But, you know, to ask ourselves these questions, and then maybe grieving relationships. You know, I think of different clients, whether in the corporate space or in therapy, who within the past couple of years are like, “Wait, why am I still in this relationship?” You know, I thought that to be a friend means that I’m a lifer, right? That I’m supposed to take the good and the bad. And I’m like, you’re not in covenant with these people that you choose to be friends with. You know, there’s no, you know, sign on the dotted line or whatever. If you’ve grown out, if you’ve moved away, if the values are no longer aligned, yes, there’s an opportunity to- for acceptance, but then there’s certain things that if it’s negatively impacting your well being, is it really, truly a healthy relationship to sustain? And, again, does it spark joy? Probably not. If you’re looking at your phone, and you see the number come up, and you’re like, rolling your eyes, and you’re like, taking a deep breath and trying to gear yourself up for a conversation, most likely that’s probably not somebody you need, you know, in your life anymore. And it may- it may be hard to feel that, and to acknowledge that, especially if this is a family member. You know, we definitely had a very stressful before 2020, you know. Leading up to 2020 was already a challenge with, you know, politics and all that stuff. So, there are probably a lot of people who are like, “Yeah, yeah, I’ve been warning people for few years now because i didn’t know they thought about this when it came to diversity and inclusion and, you know, belonging. And it hurts your heart, but we want to live- I just feel like not only do we want to live well, it’s like, we want to be just good stewards of the life that we’ve been given. Life is so short, you know. I think just a few days ago was two years of Kobe Bryant’s passing. Now I wasn’t a big Kobe fan when he was on the court, but I really started to appreciate and admire the man that he was off the court, and it just breaks my heart. But who would have thought that as he transitioned and retired from being one of the greatest basketball players, and he was going to, you know, get involved in these different ways, he had these beautiful daughters that he was pouring into, and you could tell how much he just loved them. But his life was over so quickly. So it’s like, we don’t have time to sit here in bad habits and in bad relationships. And so, yeah, it’s going to be uncomfortable, but there’s so much freedom on the other end, you know. There’s less need to be rigid with your boundaries, you know, with certain people, because they just don’t show up well in your life. I see your face. So-

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, I have so- there’s so much. This is why I love- I love because every, you know, there’s like, four different pathways that came up for me as you were talking. I mean, that idea of, you know I just I want to, like, I want to unpack a couple of things and also just to sort of circle back because you were laying down so much great wisdom. You know, one, that idea of reflecting on, again, what are the rules you’ve created for what a relationship needs to be? Right, that idea of sometimes we think a relationship is life, or whether that’s family or whether that’s, you know, a friend, or even what does the relationships at work need to look like? And so that practice of getting curious with what are the rules I’ve created, and am I okay with those? Or do I need to change those? Or where might I need to shift those, or to add in different possibilities? You know, when you first answer the question part of the reason I had such a strong emotional reaction when you said there’s going to be grief is- and I see this- I see this- you know, I’ve experienced it myself, but I see it in our clients and even, you know, friends and family, is that when we’re in these times of transition, which I think all of us are, to some degree, there is sort of this natural letting go like you said, and even if, and even if it’s something that you know is beneficial to let go, even if it is something that you know, is not who you want to be anymore, and maybe that’s- y’know like for- I mean, this is gonna feel like a little bit maybe of a silly example, but it was really powerful for me is- so for 10 years I did improv, right? I performed improv regularly, it was, you know, again, part of my identity. And when, as I was shifting into this new identity and getting my masters and leadership development, even though I knew that that was no longer where I wanted to spend my time, and I wanted to focus here, I had to allow myself to grieve a really important part. And so sometimes I think when we think about grief, we think about it as a loss that’s done to us, and maybe not always giving ourselves the space that even when we choose it, even when we know it’s healthier for us, or better for us, like to honor that there’s a loss, and to give that space to, you know, to grieve. And so that, yeah that was something that was coming up for me. And then you know, as you talk about the fact that we’re coming up on this anniversary, you know, of Kobe Bryant, and intellectually we all know our time is short. Yeah, we all know that. But being grounded in that and thinking about that, right? You know, and part of that is it could be really overwhelming if we’re thinking it every moment of the day. But you know, it makes me think about- I always forget his name. Berkman? Oliver? I think it’s Oliver Berkman, he wrote a book, “Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals.” And one of the things that was so provocative for me, and I want to lead this into, like us talking about boundaries, because I think that’s a really, really important topic for us to explore, something we hear a lot in the clients. But basically, you know, he goes, as humans we know we have this infinite amount of time, we just do. We have this incredibly limited amount of time, but also as humans, we have this unbelievable, infinite amount of possibilities and imagination. And we live in this world, right, that we’ll never see everything. And so instead of trying to, you know, time hack and productivity hacks so you can do it all, to just realize that there’s going to be balls you’re going to drop, there’s going to be people you’re going to disappoint, or expectations you won’t meet, and like, instead of trying to figure it all out, to be really clear about “Yeah, so it’s going to happen. So what balls am I going to drop? Who am I okay with disappointing. Who am I-?” You know, and as somebody- as somebody who was very much a people pleaser, right, never wanted to disappoint anyone, you know, that’s something that I’ve been working on from really- from a standpoint of getting clear about those boundaries. And just a fun story for our listeners, the first time Farah and I ever had a conversation, it was like an awkward first date.

We’d connected on Twitter, like, somehow saw her and right, you know, we got to a point where it’s like, hey, let’s actually- let’s take this relationship offline. And there was something you said in that conversation, you know where I’m going, a wise woman named Farah Harris said so clearly and definitively in a way that still just like, inspires me. She said- you said, “I don’t play with my boundaries.” And so I want to take some time, because, you know, as we heard from people even in just asking, a lot of people are wanting to set boundaries that never have before, or didn’t know that they could, or never, right, grew up in a household where that was normalized, or stepping on your boundaries is what was normalized. So just like, let’s go 30,000 foot. You know, why are boundaries so healthy and important for us to think about? Especially now.

Farah Harris
I think if we look at the world, like really look at the world, we’ll realize there’s boundaries all over the place. There’s a boundary between land and sea, right? You know, we know where the sea begins and where the land starts. And that’s what we also have to do. I need to understand where I begin and end, and where you begin and end, so that there isn’t any enmeshment. And so I think about- boundaries is in everything. Boundaries, with our time boundaries with our physical bodies, boundaries with our finances, emotionally, like all this stuff. And to your point, not many people grew up in households where boundaries were respected, or were normalized, maybe in one area, but not in another, you know? So you can have boundary violators with time, but then, you know, they were very- you know, they would cross your boundaries in those areas. Or you have very rigid boundaries, so there wasn’t real safety because there was this huge distance or wall that was put up. And so you know, how do we- how do we put healthy boundaries so that they’re guardrails? When I would talk with clients I bring up the- your lawn. You know, so you can have a fence, or you can not have a fence. But if you don’t have a fence, you still don’t mow your neighbor’s lawn. You know exactly where your property line is, and you’re like “This is, as far as I’m gonna go. Maybe I’ll be nice and. you know, do a couple more rows,” But idealistically, you don’t, you don’t typically mow you’re neighbors lawn, right? Because you know where they’re- that’s their house, that’s their property. And this is what we need to do with ourselves, too. So, you know, with my clients, I’m like, what is on your lawn that you didn’t purchase? You know, what are you picking up from other people? Right? You’re like, I clearly remembered I had a lounge set somewhere here, but they’re piled under, you know, a volleyball and basketball hoop, and like all these other things that you’re taking on from other people. And it’s like, no, you have your own space. You’re your own person. Be careful that you’re not enmeshing with others, and also that you are not being so rigid that you are able to pour out, but you’re not allowed- you’re not allowing any of the good to come in. And so it’s just a really interesting balance. And for some people, they can implement boundaries. They just don’t know how to maintain them. But oftentimes, it’s because they implement it when they’ve reached their breaking point, right? Where you’ve, you’ve been passive, or you’ve been passive aggressive, and somebody does something and you’ve hit your- the straw broke the camels back.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You cut off the arm.

Farah Harris
And you go in and you yell, and you pop off. And the other person’s like, “Oh, no, you’re mad, I’m so sorry.” And they apologize, and you state your piece, and you’re thinking all is well, like, I’ve been clear with my boundary. And it’s like, no, they just know that you were angry in the moment. And you said what you said, and more than likely you’re going to fall back into your habits of either people pleasing, or being passive, and they’ll just do it all over again. And so it’s hard to maintain, and maybe it’s easy to implement in the moment, but it’s that maintenance that’s usually the hard part. Because it’s like, oh wait, how do I keep this going so that people can understand how they’re supposed to- how I will accept them in my space.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That- I’m just taking a pause and- and reflecting on all of that. You know I love that idea of questioning what’s on your lawn ,that you didn’t mean to get there, but this last part about that sometimes we don’t set a boundary until we’ve hit that emotional breaking point. And, you know, and that realization that maybe it feels like setting a boundary to you, but the other person is just experiencing you as like angry, or mean, or right, attacking, or whatever the case is. And, you know, and that idea of maintenance. And so, you know, we had a couple of people reach out right from- from social and asking, you know how do you- what are ways we could start to set those boundaries? You know, what might that look like? And I know that this is broad but- you know, if- you know, for people who maybe that isn’t a muscle they’ve built up, right, or that’s not their lived experience, but they’re realizing that they need to, you know, what are some what are some things people can think about? Or what are some strategies? And maybe we can, maybe we can even talk, like, let’s focus in on, you know, from a relationship standpoint, right? There’s, you know, I was trying to think of something really specific, but I’m curious, like, what comes up for you, you know, when you think about somebody who has never thought about, or set that boundary when it wasn’t an emotionally heated moment?

Farah Harris
Mm hmm. Okay, let me, let me think about how I want to answer this question.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure. No, I know it’s a big question. Because it depends, right?

Farah Harris
Because- yes, and there’s two things- I think I’ll start here first. Our values help create our boundaries. So more often- this goes back to the beginning of our conversation about being curious yourself, right? So when you understand what’s important to you, you know what you’ll tolerate, what you won’t tolerate. What’s a non negotiable? What’s- yeah, you know, maybe we can have some kind of compromise in this area, but your values help to create those boundaries. And in terms of what that looks like, I think regardless of it being a financial boundary, a listening boundary, an emotional boundary, a physical boundary, that there are two things that you’re going to have to do. You’re going to have to be vocal, so you have to say something, and you’ll have to do something. And that can be difficult if, again, based off your family of origin. Was my voice honored? Did people respect my no, as a child? If that was not your story it is harder to verbally state your boundary than if you grew up in a household where you’re like, “I don’t like that.” And mom goes, “Okay. What is it about it that you don’t like?” You know, and there’s definitely levels to it, because it could just be that, yeah, I didn’t like eating broccoli, but my mom made me eat broccoli, okay. You know? And it’s those quote unquote, like, little boundary violations. But then there’s bigger boundary violations where there may have been, you know, sexual trauma, you know? And abuse where when your physical body has been violated, you know, whether that’s been physical abuse by a parent, or negligence. It is really hard for you to honor your voice because your voice had not been honored in the past. And then as I said, action. If someone is crossing your physical boundary, you can say “I don’t like that,” or “Don’t touch me.” But then you can also move, right, and you can create distance from that person so that there is a clear separation between you and the other person. If you have somebody that’s really bad at being on time for something, I have a couple of friends who are like this. I mean, I struggled too, but you know, I mean, run a couple minutes late, but I have a friend-

Sarah Noll Wilson
That may be me, are you talking about me?

Farah Harris
No, I’m not talking about you. I’m talking about another dear friend. She’s gotten so much better. But I mean, we’re- it’d be like, more than 30 minutes, like an hour. Where it’s like, whoa, you know. Hey, if I- if you said that you’re going to meet me here at this time, and I move my whole day around so I can be here and you’re consistently late, then there’s the question that you ask yourself. You tell them one, I don’t like that when you do this. This is, you know, the consequence on my end. You know, this is what happens to me. But you can choose not to meet with that person anymore. Or you can just change the time. So if you really want to meet with them at three, tell them the meeting’s at two. You know?

Sarah Noll Wilson
We may do this in my family.

Farah Harris
You know, and because you recognize that even though you might value time, you know, going back to values, creating your boundaries- you may value your time, but it is not a- such a high priority value that it- there’s an, you know, there’s no room for negotiations. It has a little wiggle room, and especially with the friends you care about that you’d love dearly, and is just the apple of your eyes, that this is just an area of weakness that they have, then you go like, I value my time, I don’t think that they’re purposely not trying to value my time, but for it to work out for me, this is what I’m going to do. This is the action I’m going to take. I’m just going to have to make sure I schedule with them earlier than the actual time I need to meet with them. Same thing with finances, you know, all this stuff. So there has to be some doing and action when it comes to boundary setting. But for you to set them you first need to ask yourself, “Why am I setting this boundary anyway?” And that has been a question I’ve been really asking my clients. I’m like, “Okay, you’re going to set a boundary why? What is the purpose of this boundary? How is it going to serve you?” Because if you don’t know why boundary is there, then more than likely you’ll cross your own.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And I can imagine that sometimes, you know, again going back to that point of like, maybe we think we’re setting a boundary because we’ve hit that emotional thing, when you know, when really what we need to be communicating is we are hurt we are- right? Like, or whatever the case is, that it that in the moment it may feel like a boundary, and maybe it is, but maybe it’s also just an emotional reaction cloaked as a boundary, right? And, you know, I feel very seen in your example, Farah, because we lovingly say, in our family, “There’s Noll time,” you know, so. We are- and so, you know, when there’s people it’s like, okay, you want me here, here? Tell me like, a little bit early, you know, or whatever the case is.

Farah Harris
Give me a buffer!

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, give, you know, like- like I always say, I’m just so optimistic, like, that’s part of my ADHD. But my time blindness, I’m just so optimistic that everything can get done in 15 minutes, and that’s not true. But I, you know, what I- you know, that idea of, you know, getting really clear about your values and getting really clear about, you know- and like, what are those values that are the real non-negotiable? Or what are those values that you go, I’m going to be a little flexible on it, not in a way that’s a detriment to me, but also in a way that is- serves you? You know an analogy that we like to use a lot when we think about relationships is, right, you have your island, your values, your lived experiences, I have my island, and what’s our island together, right? So it’s not like a tug of war to get each other on each other’s island, but like, where- and this is where, you know, how important is this person? How important is this relationship? Right? Like, there are some people that you may be okay with giving more flexibility to than others because of how how important that relationship is.

Farah Harris
A story comes to mind, because I know we’re talking about boundaries within relationships, but I ended my last statement about you know, crossing your own boundaries. And I want to kind of, if you don’t mind, hit how we can cross our own boundaries. So you know, the first relationship we have is really with ourselves, right? And so if we’re going to talk about it, we need to understand that. So I think about one woman who had very clear values, was very spiritual and religious, right? And so she was like, “Farah, I’m looking for a man of God. I want this type of husband,” and all of these things. And she’s like, and “I’m just, I am praying for discernment to know what is- what I’m supposed to say and do when I’m around men.” And I’m like, oh, okay, yeah, great. And she shares with me two interactions that she had with two different gentlemen. Her first question to them was, you know, what is your spiritual walk like? You know, what is- what is your faith foundation? You know, so very open ended question, a very discerning question. Right. So she didn’t lead with, you know, “I’m a Christian,” and what because, you know, not trying to hate on the guys out there, but they will say whatever they need to say.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure, sure, sure. Sometimes the love bombing is real. Right.

Farah Harris
And so she asked this very clear, open ended, but very discerning question. And they responded. And their response was not aligned with her values. So I’m just thinking, she’s just sharing a story with me like, “Girl, let me tell you about these two guys that I met.” And then she ends like, “So I’m going to go on a date next Friday with the first guy, and then the second guy-” And I was like, wait, wait, wait, what just happened? And she said, “Well, I didn’t want them to think that I was narrow minded.” And so my tongue in cheek response to her was like, “Well, the road to Heaven is narrow.” According to, you know, the faith. So- and she was like, “Okay, good point.” I said, but I’m failing to understand if they do not fit what you’ve stated are the things that you value, and what you’re looking for, why are you wasting your time going on these dates? Let’s actually talk about the fear and the actual reason why you’re crossing your own boundary, right? And so that’s the question, again, of loss and grief, and when we start doing this reflection, and discovery, and dissecting what’s happening in our lives, is that we have to realize, like, oh, shoot, there are times I’m crossing my own boundary because of certain fears that I have. And so her fear was, will I ever be able to be loved, and in a relationship? And because she wasn’t so certain that that person that fit those criterias that she was looking for is out there, she was just wasting time and going through the motions. And I said, “Okay, well, what if you did date the guy, and you actually liked them? And then you guys got engaged, and then you got married, and then you had kids. The woman that you’re showing me to be, would probably want to take your kids to church. And what if this man says, ‘No, I’m not raising my kid this way.’ Can you really be upset with him?” You know, it’s the Maya Angelou, you know, quote is like, “When people show you who they are, believe them the first time.” So I’m like, you can only really be upset with yourself because you continuously crossed your own boundary over and over again. And now that does not only have you in conflict with this person, but you’re now in conflict with yourself. And so this is why I’m so passionate about my clients and those that connect with me to really understand why they put values in place, and why they put boundaries in place, so that they can understand how to not have moments that can cause them unnecessary grief, because they’ve crossed, you know, those boundaries.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, that- that’s so powerful. You know, and thinking about it like, that there might be, you know, again, just like we were talking about, there may be times when there’s some flexibility. There may be times when the line is thicker, if you will. And being intentional, and also being aware of am I being more flexible, or am I you know, being okay with this, because I’m okay with it? Or am I doing this because I’m afraid, right? Whether that’s fear of rejection, retaliation, you know, and all of those things. And I know that that’s a lot of what we’re hearing about, because, again, as you mentioned, right, relationships, a lot of them, especially personal, have had different variables and factors over the last couple of years because of the pandemic, because of politics, because of, you know, like, all everything and anything that’s been happening. And, and I love that prompt that-

Farah Harris
Without using your EQ.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And that’s- exactly right? Yeah. No, say more.

Farah Harris
That’s you, being, you know- one, using self awareness to recognize, you know, what you’re feeling and thinking, but then, two, it’s the self regulation. So even those feelings that are uncomfortable, how are you using that to navigate, and to process, and to address whatever is happening in a way that is going to positively serve you well, you know? So it’s not just, oh, I’ve set this boundary, you know, to your point of there’s room and flexibility. Why is there room and flexibility here? You know, what, why are you- are you- is this- is this a compromise that you’re okay with, or are you conceding and actually giving away something, which is not using your emotional intelligence well, because you want to make sure you’re good so that you can actually have good relationships. And so sometimes when we’re sitting here, only, quote unquote empathizing- we’ll use that word, right? I’m empathizing, I’m seeing what this person- I don’t want them to feel bad, but if you’re doing all of that, and it’s not reciprocated, one, they are boundary violators, and two, you’re violating and self abandoning, you know? You’re not taking into consideration your own feelings. So the empathy can’t go just one way. You have to take a moment to go, “Oh, what am I feeling?”

Sarah Noll Wilson
Mm hmm. It’s- in my experience is like that’s a- that’s a big challenge especially for women. Right? When you- like, I’m generalizing, right? But being raised to be nurtured, to that’s something that we see in our workshops of, you know, when we talk about, like, thinking about needs, and getting clear about your needs, it’s usually very consistently, right? It’s the women who are like, “I’ve never even thought about that.” And that- I want to just say out loud again, right, are you compromising, or are you conceding? And how powerful that is, and that, you know, that idea of emotional intelligence, which we’ll have future conversations with Farah just so you all know, she’s coming back. Because she- she’s- she’s helped me learn to like fall in love again with, you know, the language of emotional intelligence. After getting just, you know, bastardized in the corporate world. I feel like- but am I coming from a place of choice? Yeah, right? Well, that’s a conversation for another day. But that idea of like, am I coming from a place of intentional choice that serves me, or am I coming from a default, right, of protection, or stress response, or whatever? And you know, and when I think about that, it’s that like, one is power within and one is, you know, potentially giving away our power. Because we aren’t- yeah.

Farah Harris
I love that. That- what you said. Intentional. I think we, we’re not so intentional with how we show up and how we engage with other people. I think we’re very reactive to things. And so, yeah, I loved hearing you say the word intentional, because that’s actually a word that I use in my definition of self care. It’s the daily intentional act of creating a life you don’t want to run away from. You know, self care just doesn’t pop up. You have to intentionally every day, ask yourself, what do I need? Do I need a nap? Do I need to eat? Am I drinking enough water? Do I need to move because my body hurts like, all of these things. And this is why, yeah, we’ll definitely have future conversations about this. Because it all kind of comes together in terms of self care boundaries and emotional intelligence. Like they all, you know, have, like, this unique trinity, you know, they all feed off of each other. You can’t- you can’t have clear boundaries if you’re not really practicing the emotional intelligence of being aware of what it is that you need. And at the same time, how are you practicing self care if you don’t have those boundaries in place? Like it’s almost a chicken and the egg thing, but the more you’re able to elevate your own emotional quotient for yourself, yes, we want to be able to be there for others, but it’s the whole putting the oxygen mask on first. So the greater you will be able to see what those boundaries are, and the more you’ll be able to practice self care in all those dimensions of you know, the wellness wheel, you know, financially, physically, relationally, you know, all of those things. And so- but it is all starting with intentionality.

Sarah Noll Wilson
One of the things you shared with me last fall when, you know, I was navigating some personal challenges, was understanding that people who are willing to violate your boundaries have no problem pushing their boundaries on you. And I didn’t say it as beautifully and as articulately as you did. So I would love to have you just sort of respond to that. But that, that idea and concept was so profound for me. And as you know, I think I’ve shared it with like, 30- I mean, so many people, when I see them in these moments that I’m like, let me let me introduce you to Farah. And every single time, there’s this- there’s this, literally this breath of- ah. I mean, it’s just massive. So I, you know, if you just in a few moments, sort of like, crystallize that idea better than what I just stated.

Farah Harris
No, you said it beautifully, it’s almost verbatim. And I can actually tell you where that came from. I had a wonderful relationship with a young woman, who was definitely a people pleaser, she was the youngest of a family, the one that everybody went to, because she was the one that quote, unquote, made it out, you know? So she was the youngest one, she was the one that was able to have all these wonderful opportunities academically, you know, within work. But her family continually and consistently crossed her boundaries in harmful ways. And there was one conversation that I had with her, I said, “You are always,” now we talked about conceding, “You’re always giving them permission to cross these boundaries.” And she was hurt one day, when a family member that she adored, that she kind of felt was like a brother decided to up and move, clear cross country, you know, and didn’t mention it to her, you know, until the very end. And she was so hurt by it. And I said, “Well, I understand that you’re hurt, but let’s think about this. You feel that you can’t leave your home, your mother, you know, and your siblings, because you have to be there. But he thought about himself, and did not really consider, oh, I should be here too to help, you know, my aunt, or whatever her title was, you know, for the family.” I said, “You have to be aware of that people have no problem setting their boundaries with you. You have a problem with setting your boundaries with them. And so they’re not going to respect your ‘no,’ because they’re used to you saying yes. But trust and believe if they ask you to do something, or they decide they want to just pick up their ball and go home, you know, they will do it and not think twice about you.” And it was like a shock to her system when I said it, because she was just like, “I can’t believe he left,” and I said, “Obviously he had his boundary of ‘Oh, I want to go make a life for myself, so I’m moving to California, wherever he moved,’ and did not consider the way that you take your time to consider.” And you know, and we may fall into, like you said, the generalization of women who are more sensitive and empathetic in that way. But it really slowed her down to recognize. I said, “How many times do they have no problem saying no to you? But yet they can’t honor your no.” And so we have to- I feel like when you understand that, that’s another way of giving yourself permission. Because it’s an extra level of awareness. Like, wait a minute, I’m struggling to say no to her, but she has no problem saying no to me. So what does that mean? That means that I need to be more okay saying no to her, and she’s just going to have to process that. And again, I give this you know, disclaimer to anyone who is learning how to implement and maintain their boundaries, that it’s going to be difficult only because the other person is not going to like it. It’s going to be brand new. It’s like teaching a whole new dance step, like you’ve been doing the tango and now you have to learn how to do the salsa. And it’s going to make you want to revert back to old habits, but you have to learn not to do that. They’re going to have to learn a new way, and if they don’t want to learn the new way, then that’s also indicative of where the relationship is, and you may have to grieve the relationship all together.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I have no doubt that there’s going to be a fair number of people listening to that. Having probably felt very seen in all of that. And yeah, I- thank you. One- this is really the last question, because I like to ask of all the guests, because this is a podcast where we explore conversations. What, what is the conversation- you’re ready for it? You know, it’s coming. What’s a conversation you’ve had with yourself, or with someone else that was transformative? And you can share as much or as little about it.

Farah Harris
I’m going to go with what, what has been top of mind as as I am journeying in this space of entrepreneurship. And I think back to a business coach I’ve worked with last year, and how she, like, awakens the- How can I say this? Awakens the confidence in others. And so I was grateful for her saying, “Farah, look at what you’ve done. Look at your education and look at your experience. So why would you accept a certain rate, you know, in doing the work that you do?” And I think especially as women we need to hear this, because, you know, sometimes we’re just so grateful to have the opportunity to speak to your people. I’m so humbled,

Sarah Noll Wilson
We want to nurture and give, right.

Farah Harris
Because we want to nurture and give, and we can still nurture and give, but we have to steward our businesses well, and we also have to steward everything that we’ve mined, and collected to make us the experts that we are and so she just said it so matter of fact, I was like, “Shit! Just read your receipts!” Let me check these receipts again, like, oh, okay, yeah, I do provide value. I do make a difference. I do make an impact. And I think we all need to be reminded of that at some point. Because doubt sets in. And so it made me go like, okay, Farah, yes you need to, to practice your own EQ. So I’m actually- okay, this is gonna be two things. So there’s that, a second thing in terms of a conversation I had with myself. So this is all because I want to connect it to to the EQ boundary conversation. I’ve had a migraine right before doing an engagement. And I was frustrated, but I was like, you know, I want to serve whoever listens, you know, I want to show up well. At the end of the engagement, the organizer was like, “Oh, thank you for pushing through your migraine.” I was like, “Oh, I don’t have a migraine anymore.” And it was in that moment that I realized that when I’m in my state of flow, and when I’m in my zone of genius, that I feel well. And so the thing that was frustrating me, the thing that was physically hurting me, didn’t have room to continue to be a distraction. Because once I was doing my thing, and I was seeing the comments, and people were being poured into, you know, I was filling their cup, I was like, I’m in my space. This is what I’m supposed to do. This is my zone of genius. This is my flow. And I need to make sure that I find ways to cultivate that throughout the week, you know, when I’m feeling- you know, I’m trying to be careful with this word, but I think some mothers would understand where you kind of feel trapped in doing all of the mothering. And during those things, and you go “There’s so much more to me than just this role.” And it was such a just- because when she was like “Yeah, your headache.” That’s in my head, ah, I don’t have one. It is gone. The miracle of flow. So yeah, so those are the two- two things that I wanted to highlight, just this wonderful conversation with my previous coach on read your receipts, chick, like.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I love that.

Farah Harris
And then what I recognized in my body when doing an engagement and post engagement, that it is something that I have to do, because it actually impacts who I am. That’s it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. I love it. And I feel it, and I- and I have had moments like that, but I hadn’t thought about it in that way, and also just, right, for people who are listening to this, when are those moments when you’re in flow? When are those moments when you’re in your zone of genius, right? And because sometimes when we think about self care, we think about self care as like, oh, take a bath, or get your nails done, or what, you know, whatever it means for you. But like, sometimes self care is, what can I do to be in the space where I’m- I’m just in my zone of genius, right? I love that as a way of thinking about self care. Farah Harris.

Farah Harris
Sarah Noll Wilson.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I just, gosh, I have so much love for you. I have no doubt that people who are hearing this are going to want to connect with you. What is the best way that people can engage with your work and connect with you?

Farah Harris
Well, on the interwebs, I can be followed on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter. If you go to @farahharrislcpc. If you want to learn more about the work that I do around belonging and workplace wellness, please feel free to visit my website, workingwelldaily.com. I do also have an Instagram page @WorkingWellDaily, and Twitter, but, you know Twitter’s funny with the amount of letters and words, so it’s WorkingWell Daily @WorkingWellDai1, and the number one. But yeah, I would- I would love to connect with your listeners and have them follow and engage in interesting conversations the same way that I found you on Twitter. And here we are.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Little did we know. Little did we know.

Farah Harris
Little did we know.

Sarah Noll Wilson
We will- we will post all that information in the show notes, and we certainly- I cannot, I cannot recommend enough to engage with Farah personally. If you are a leader of an organization and you’re exploring “How do we do things differently?” Have conversations with her about how she can support your organization. It’s obvious how much I’ve been changed by her, and so imagine what she can do for you. Farah, thank you so much. Thank you so, so much. And with that, I bid you farewell. I love you. I love you so much. Thank you all so much for joining us on this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations. I certainly hope you left with as much wisdom as I did talking to Farah Harris as we explored the topics of emotional intelligence and boundaries, and just- and also, you know, thinking about our family- like, our origin stories, right? What shaped us. I think that, you know, that’s definitely something I want to hold on to, is just continue to be curious about, you know, what has shaped me to this point, and am I okay with that, and how do I want to show up more powerfully going forward? And also that point about what are the ways where I might be stepping over my boundaries, that was really provocative for me. So, for more information on holding deeper, more meaningful conversations in your organization, or if you just simply like to reach out, please visit us at SarahNollWilson.com. You can also connect with me on social media. You can find me on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, or you can just search Sarah Noll Wilson. You can also pick up a copy of my newly released book, “Don’t Feed the Elephants,” where books are sold, that will help us overcome our art of avoidance to build powerful partnerships. And if you’re listening to this and want to be able to support this work in a very real and meaningful way, please visit us at patreon.com/conversationsonconversations, where not only will your support sustain this podcast, and the incredible team behind it, it’s more than just me, but you’ll also have access to incredible swag, and content, and events that will be specific to just our Patreon community. If you have questions for us, or you want to share with us what resonated, or to pass on, you know, a really nice note to Farah about something that you’re chewing on as a result of our conversations, please email us. You can email us at podcast at sarahnollwilson.com, you can also follow the podcast on Twitter @ConvosOnConvos. Another way you can support our work is to please rate, review, and subscribe to the show. That is a way for us to be able to see what’s resonating and also get the word out for others who might enjoy this as well. And then to that point, if you’re enjoying the show and you think others might too, help us spread the word, right? A referral is one of the greatest compliments we can get. So, tell your friends about it, post about it on social media, right? If you want to bake a cake and put that in the break room to encourage people, please, please do. We want these conversations to reach as many ears as possible, so helping people find the podcast is another way- another really great way to show your support. And then, just final acknowledgments. A thank you to our unbelievable team who makes this all possible. To Drew Noll and Nick Wilson for the editing and producing of the show, to Olivia Reinert for helping us with transcription services, and to Kaitlin Summitt-Nelson, who is our marketing leader, and who helps us keep everything organized. A huge, huge moment of heartfelt thanks to Farah. This was a really powerful episode I know for me, and no doubt it will be powerful for many of you. And a final reminder that when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and with other people, we can change the world. So thank you for joining.

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