Episode 005: A Conversation on Compassion with Paul Tence Ruiz

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and Paul Tence Ruiz as they discuss the important role compassion plays in being an effective and empathetic CEO.

About our guest

Paul helps leaders in times of growth, change, and uncertainty using approaches from Human-Centered Design Tools and Methods, Leadership  Agility, Conversational Intelligence (C-IQ), and Narrative Coaching  Technologies. Paul is part of the pioneer class of professional global coaches that have been certified in Conversational Intelligence under the mentoring of its founder, Dr. Judith E. Glaser.

Learn more about Paul’s work at leadersintransition.ph.

Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Welcome to Conversations on Conversations, the show where each week we explore a topic with an expert that can help people have deeper conversations and build more powerful relationships with themselves and for others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, and I really am so excited for this conversation. I’m excited to introduce to you our guest this week, Paul Ruiz. Paul helps leaders in times of growth, change, and uncertainty. He uses approaches from human centered design tools and methods, leader agility, conversational intelligence, and narrative coaching technologies. I love all of this. His work is his passion for fun and well being. He cooks, practices yoga, and plays golf. His joy is his wife, Janice, and their teenage sons, Luke, and Franco. Paul, welcome so much to the show.

Paul Ruiz
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, my friend. It’s so nice to be here. You know, I’m starstruck.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I- and, see I feel like I’m the student who’s getting to interview her mentor and her- and her teacher. And so we can both just come from a loving spot.

Paul Ruiz
It’s been a while, I cannot help but reminisce about the first few weeks of the pandemic, and we were having a very deep conversation about what do we do. How do we help people? How do we help people? I can’t help but reminisce. It’s a pleasure to be here. Congratulations on this wonderful show. Congratulations, of course, on your book. That’s amazing. And it’s a- it’s a pleasure. I’m deeply, deeply glad to be here. This is where I want to be.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that. I’m- I’m happy to hear that. Because I- you know, so for those of you who are listening, I met Paul back in 2017, is when I was first introduced to him when I went through the second class, because you’re in the initial class of the conversational intelligence training. And I had followed this gentleman on this Facebook group who was so passionate and had so much wisdom, and then we were able to meet in New York, and he was everything I wanted him to be. And since that time, has- to have- to have I ever told you this? I remember being starstruck, going that’s Paul up there. Here- here’s the Paul.

Paul Ruiz
The crazy guy in the vest.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I- you know, I was gonna- I don’t remember what you were wearing, I just remember your smile. But- but over the years we’ve formed a relationship. But Paul is- he’s the coach I go to when I’m feeling stuck, and there have been times when maybe I’m struggling with a situation, or I’m struggling myself. And so I’m- I am so excited to introduce all of you to Paul. And I have no doubt that there are going to be lots of moments where you have what I call a “Paul moment,” where you just pause and go, “Hmm, that’s- yep.” So Paul, let me ask you this. What- I mean, I shared a little bit about your bio, but what would you want the audience to know about you?

Paul Ruiz
Well, I would like the audience to know that there is, there’s always somebody who cares. There’s always somebody who cares, no matter how you think there’s none, there is always somebody who cares. I’d like to be able to I guess, advocate caring now. Caring. Because we need to be caring. We need to be caring deeply about how we are having these conversations, how we’re thinking of conversations. That’s why when you invited me to talk about conversations, there’s no way I’m not going to be engaging in it. Because there are people like us, both of you and me, who have taken this call to our profession. But you know, it’s a calling right? It’s a deep, deep sense of it’s so much more than just business. It’s-

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right? My friend Farah, she says, “It’s ministering, Sarah, what we’re doing is ministering.” And I was like, that’s interesting.

Paul Ruiz
It is, it is indeed ministry. And I think that’s the evolution too, that, at the- I’m almost 20 years into my practice. This is my 19th year in November. And next year I’ll be celebrating two decades of doing what I’m doing. And it makes me reflect. It makes me reflect deeply about impact about, you know, about helping. I try not to use complex words as much as I can because I think we’re going to talk about it at some point, you know, this- this pesky voice inside my head, so to speak, tends to be very confused as well. So that guy, that guy, I’m trying to put him in check right now exactly as we’re talking. He wants to go somewhere, like I’m trying my best to go in a direction that will be serving of the audience in the show. But yeah, in a nutshell, that’s- that’s what I want to put forward. I want to- I want to remind people that there are professionals, but they’re also non professionals who are helping, you know? Brothers, sisters, friends, buddies, husbands, wives, partners, uncles, aunts, who you might not have had given a chance to be connected to you. But having a conversation will just make so much of a difference than keeping it to yourself or, you know, or being alone at it. Because now’s a good time to be connected.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. You know, there’s so much that’s coming up for me, just hearing you talk. And I, I absolutely love that you, you started that simple question with just know that there’s somebody that cares. And one of the things that, you know, I’m curious about for your journey, you know, knowing that our paths crossed in the work of conversational intelligence. So I guess, you know, first, just as a grounding, because you and I are familiar with that, people get to hear from me all the time, but speak a little bit to the work of conversational intelligence and, and that foundation. And so I’ll just start there, and then I have a follow up question.

Paul Ruiz
Certainly. I miss Judith, our mentor, teacher. I can’t help but miss her. She was a woman way ahead of her time. And I recall in the lessons, in the private mentoring sessions that we had, she would remind me constantly about- and the context here is my insecurity as a coach- I was telling her, you know, I’ve been practicing for so long, but why do I still get this, you know, imposter syndrome, at the ripe old age of, you know, during that time, what, 49? Now I’m- no, no younger, right? 47, now I’m 52. But during that time, she said, “But Paul, there is something very special inside you, and that’s all you have to worry about. It’s embodiment.” So conversational intelligence to the viewers who are new to such concept, is really the art and the craft and science behind how leaders build trust through conversations, and the quality of human interactions that they engage in on a daily basis. Now more than ever the pandemic has highlighted- this pandemic age that we’re living in has highlighted the value of that. You got all of this conversation and, you know, literature and study about the impact of the quality of conversations that leaders have, especially now that well-being has become strategy. You know, I mean, in the- in the- in the workplace, but, but not just the workplace. I mean, work has invaded home, and home has invaded work. So- so our ability- our ability to actually become transparent, you know, define our relationships, deepen, understanding, describe shared success, amidst all of the downers that the pandemic is constantly bringing up, and testing these things. Now, I just went through the main framework, which is the trust framework, in CIQ or conversational intelligence. It’s- it’s how we can be truthful. That’s why I admire your work, too. I mean, I’m doing my best not to make this a mutual admiration conversation, but, you know, I’m fine with it too. So- but I admire that, especially like in your book, right? In, in- the elephant in the room really, is these things when we- when we don’t want to be transparent, let’s not talk about that. Not now. Not today, you know, not that not now, not today, and it just takes up so much energy and also eats up a lot of people’s spirit. So it’s good, it’s good that we can, we can have avenues like this. It’s good that you can leverage technology to be able to have deeper conversations, but nothing beats of course, having one with a person. And I’m just glad that those conversations are becoming more frequent, you know, face to face. But I’ve seen the magic of technology and how we can connect. This is an example of such conversation.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I mean, you’re- you’re over in the Philippines, and I’m in Iowa right now. And we’re having a conversation at 7:29 my time, and 9:29 in the morning your time, right? Did I get the time? One of the things I’m curious to get your perspective on is the impact that the pandemic has had on relationships. On one hand, I’ve certainly experienced myself, and I’ve seen in clients, and I’ve seen in colleagues and friends, this clarification that people have been going through about what’s really important to me. How do I want to spend my time? How do I want to show up? But then on the flip side, the isolation, the differences of potentially political divisiveness on all of that is, the way that I am experiencing it, and I’m curious to get your thoughts is- it’s almost like we’re on icebergs that are slowly pulling away from each other, and being really intentional about needing to reconnect and heal those relationships through conversations. And so I’m curious, you know, what are you seeing from your side of the world, from the work that you’re doing, and just your own lived experiences?

Paul Ruiz
Hmm. I’d like to answer that wonderful, what a wonderful question, in two dimensions, actually. The first relationship really, is the self relationship. And to say- I’ll, I’ll start with that, then I’ll go into the external relationship, which is the others relationship. I think the self relationship has become a very difficult one, with what’s going on, right? Mortality salience, understanding that there’s an end, just, you know, just being very aware, because of the- especially at the onset, right at 2021. Especially when there’s just the numbers to spike, and it was cataclysmic in terms of the numbers of people who are just dying here and there. And it’s an end, the sense of it coming to home was really just real. It did come to home, off course, for a lot of people, yours truly as well. And so the first relationship was, you know, am I cut out for this, can I make it? Will I make it? Am I gonna lose my nuts? Or my nuts and bolts. Is- everything’s getting hot, you know, cross wired and crazy. And it’s just very confusing. So there’s, there’s lots of work that had to be done actually, with the relationship to self. And it’s nice to be on the helping side of it, because we can help people, we help people through coaching conversations, through routines, through you know, changes in activities, self care. I spent, like, four hours preparing for my day, not for anything else, but just my head. Same for others. So-

Sarah Noll Wilson
What does that look like?

Paul Ruiz
Yeah, well, I’m a practicing Catholic, so it opens with prayer at around 4:30. I would pray the Rosary for a few minutes, and then that translates immediately into meditation for about either, depending on how my day is like, I would probably meditate anywhere between 30 minutes to an hour and a half, depending, depending. There are days when you know, you know, those days when you have to run a session here, there’s a coaching session there.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And then you need to eat lunch, and you’ve already forgotten.

Paul Ruiz
And yes, yes. And you actually have to have a conversation with your son. It’s like, you know, those kinds of days, I really need to prepare, because, and I guess that’s the intentional aspect of developing the relationship inside. Because, because I know exactly that, you know, these are the types of days that I will get triggered, I’m going to get hijacked, probably, I need to be in the best shape possible. And that shape is internal, pretty much. So the first conversation is the internal conversation.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I want to pause there for a second because I want to- I want to expand on that and go deeper into that, because you said something that I want to repeat back to here is, it was really profound when you have the awareness to say, it’s days like- you have an awareness of the days that are more likely to trigger you than not, right? The days when you might not show up at your best, or maybe frenetic or whatever the case might be, and being really intentional about that taking care of yourself. And, and even when we talk about self care, you know, a lot of times I think, speaking from a Western perspective, a lot of times self care is very external, right? Outside in, go take a- take a shower, get your nails done, right? Whatever it might be, but I think there’s something really provocative about- and that’s a practice, you know, again, the goal with the show is to have these conversations, and then find moments of practice where people can go oh, what would that look like for me? Is what’s the plan, the- that getting ready plan, when you know this might be a hard week, or this might be a tough day, or- and so I love that practice that you put forward of really just getting ready, and anticipating from a productive perspective, not a worry, but a, okay, this might challenge me, but I’m going to put myself in a position where I can meet that challenge.

Paul Ruiz
The word is performance. I need to perform. And when people ask me “Perform what?” Life. Right? I just need to perform life, that’s it. I need to live the dream. And if I’m- if I’m gonna leave it to chance, right? That “Whoa, I hope I have the energy, I hope I have the patience, I hope I have-” it’s just so unfair to the- to the people who want- they pay me to help them. Number two- number two- number two, it’s just- it’s just fleeting now, things are fleeting. And if this were- if this was the last day, whatever it is, then I want to make sure that it’s well worth the day, right? I mean, it’s worth the breath. It’s worth the- and it’s, you know, I know people say it and people, you know, sometimes get upset when they say, but that’s the best thing that came out of this pandemic, is that I understand that life is short, life is very short. And we’re being given a opportunity here to learn some stuff, to correct some things, and learn so many stuff. And that, that brings me joy that we can learn from it, it also gives me heartbreak, it breaks my heart to see that still we don’t, we don’t learn from it. I mean, you know, still we like to run with elephants, to use your words, right? You know, when in fact it’s more fun to have time with people, you know, with people who are around us. So that that’s the first aspect of the relationship, the internal aspect. The voice inside my head keeps on trying me, but he’s also very helpful when times need him to be. It’s just that he’s real, he’s very imaginative. He’s very creative. And he’s also, he’s also very hurt sometimes. That’s why he seeks attention.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I want to expand on that, because that was, you know, part of what we talked about we wanted to explore today was just that idea of of navigating, you know, that voice in- that voice in your head, and how, you know, as people are listening to this, how would you describe- you know, you already talked about it from a very personal perspective, but, you know, let’s paint a picture of you know, that voice in our head, and maybe times when it serves us, and maybe times when we need to be aware that maybe it’s not. You know, I had to smile a little bit when you said yours is imaginative. And it’s like, oh, yeah, no, mine will- I can see all worst case scenarios in a matter of a split second. I can have solutions for it, and it’s exhausting. So I’m curious to hear your thoughts on that.

Paul Ruiz
Certainly. And let’s use our dear conversational intelligence frame of the ladder of conclusion, right? It’s like, you know, everything we see here, it’s immediately going to create a message. And it’s not our attitude, it’s chemical. And the more creative, the more imaginative you are, by nature or by gift, the- of course, it’s going to be very vivid. It’s vivid, it’s going to be colorful, it’s going to be surround sound. So if you think jumping to conclusions was a concept that’s quite boring, it’s not. It’s an amazing- amazing roller coaster freak show, and if you hear something you- you know, your partner, your husband, your wife says something, you get triggered, you don’t like what it means to you. And then suddenly, “You don’t get me.” Wow, where did that come from, right? So that’s- that’s why sometimes when we- when we have- we need to prepare for life that way. We need to prepare in a way that, you know, you know that those are possible. And there’s really- for me, at least, it’s about the journey of being self aware. That’s it. When- when you know that he’s there, and I’ll use he because I’m male, if you know that he’s there, I’m acknowledging him the first thing in the morning. I’m not- I’m not- I’m not gonna be surprised by you, mister. I’m gonna say- I’m gonna say good morning. How are you? Are you tired?

Sarah Noll Wilson
How did you sleep last night? Why are you still singing in Encanto songs in the morning? That’s what I would tell mine.

Paul Ruiz
I- actually it’s “Don’t you ever sleep?” That’s the first question that I’m asking. Here I am trying to sleep, and here you are, you know, putting so many things in my head. Can’t you wait until the sun rises, or at least until I’m actually up? Right? So that was quite the ride, I’ll tell him that. I’ll acknowledge him right away. And, and it’s funny, right? Because it- when I- when I put that kind of humorous spin on the voice inside my head, he doesn’t become so worrisome. You’ll be surprised, you give him so much attention, he’ll just “Hmm, okay.” He’s kind of shy too, so he would say, “Okay, I’ll leave you be. It looks like- looks like you have me, uh- I’ll leave you be, go and do your magic. You know, I’ll leave you be. I’ll crop up later. See you. I’ll see you when everything’s quiet.” Right? So- so I don’t know, it’s- I think it’s the gift of- of really meditative practice. When you really quiet down, and you get- you really hear the breath, you understand the life inside you, and acknowledge that that voice inside your head is a thought. It’s an idea. It’s not you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s temporary.

Paul Ruiz
It’s temporary. But you- definitely don’t shove him or he’s gonna come out, man. Right? I would I would prefer that, you know, we’re- we’re in this together. I need you. You need me. You- I mean, and if I know you’re there, then you know, there’s no harm in me telling you, “Could you chill today? Today, I don’t need you. Today I really need to be on top of things. I’m helping somebody, I’m working with my son, I’m doing something for my wife, or I’m doing something for an advocacy, or an organization I’m supporting. Give me time. Crop up later, okay? See you at Happy Hour or something.” But so-

Sarah Noll Wilson
I’ll schedule in for 8 o’clock tonight.

Paul Ruiz
Yes, yes. And I found that when I speak to myself that way, it’s just amazing. I get to focus on what’s the present. We talk about that so much, people ask, you know. and, and I love that because I’m, you know, I’m a huge Mike Singer fan. And in the journey of inner work, which is what I associate my work now. Because I get it, that’s what I do. I help people with their inner work, the executives, the CEOs. In the journey of the inner work, I’ve learned that when you acknowledge the voice, when you- when you acknowledge yourself and your ability to be different from everything else that’s happening outside, it’s actually okay. It’s cool, it’s fine. It’s natural, it’s- you’re not sick, there’s- it’s just a function of yourself protecting you. Your brain is working fine. So be happy when you’re worried, be happy when you get a little bit antsy, because you’re fine. You’re alive, your brain’s active, it’s good. But you know, when we don’t acknowledge, it when we deny it, or worse, when we, you know, you know-

Sarah Noll Wilson
Push it aside.

Paul Ruiz
This is not happening. When you when you do things like that, you tend to just give it energy. And that’s what it is. It’s just energy. It’s- but if you allow it, it passes through. It passes through. So that’s the first aspect of that powerful question you asked. Right? The inner relationship.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. No, we will. I mean, we’ll get to- we’ll get to part two here in a minute. But, well what’s coming up for me, is it makes me think about my journey with my panic disorder. And having to you know, it’s- I appreciate the language of what does it look like to be happy, or to be appreciative that you have the worry, because tells you that your brain is working, and you’re alive, and it’s not always comfortable. And that whole idea of “I’m not my thoughts,” that was a mantra that I had to really adopt. And to hold- and to hold the thoughts loosely, that’s the way that I think about it, is yeah, how do I hold it just a little bit looser? Not be so connected to it, but just go oh, I see you. And- and it seems- it seems maybe even a little ridiculous to some people, but I have- I have similar conversations, right, with my saboteur voices, that internal voice that, although I call her Not Yet Nancy, because she often tells me I’m not ready yet, I’m not qualified yet, I’m not good enough yet, she’s got this, you know, pointing finger, if I were to characterize. But there- but there is- there is something incredibly powerful in saying thank you, I don’t- I don’t need you today. I’m actually good. And that was a practice that I was fortunate to learn from my former chief HR officer, Erin Barfels, of yeah, it’s okay, like, talk to it and just say, “You know what, like, I understand why you’re here.” And for me, and I’m curious to hear this, how this might resonate for you, or what comes up for you. Sometimes, sometimes when that voice gets loud, sometimes it’s an indication that I might be playing in the right space. Right, if I- if that voice of fear comes up for me of- so let’s talk about the book launch. You know, something I haven’t talked about publicly is, the night before the book launch, my emotions were all over the place, right? My- Nick can attest to this, my- my insecurities were coming to the surface, my worries, and in almost in a very, it was just a very visceral way. Because there was this element of- I was playing big. And, and so sometimes when that voice creeps up for me, it becomes almost like a good indicator of, okay, you might be playing in the right space of stretching yourself, of moving outside your comfort zone, of doing something different, of taking a risk that maybe you wouldn’t normally have taken. And so I’m curious to hear what comes up for you, as I share that.

Paul Ruiz
That’s absolutely spot on. I have to support it. Because when, when anxiety, or worry, or concern, or the imaginative brain, it’s usually activated when things are actually at your, you know, at that space of stretch, the fine – in Flow, right? In Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi’s study, that fine intersection between stretch and the- my ability to actually perform here, and the challenges that I am actually experiencing or perceiving, when it’s coming to a stretch, when it’s coming to a perfect intersection. It’s not going to be- it’s not going to be smooth, it’s actually going to be alive. You’re going to be very alive. And it’s a- it’s a dual experience. You get a- there’s no other word. It’s ecstatic. It’s ecstasy to actually be on a fulfillment, yet it’s terrifying. The flip side is it’s very terrifying. It’s- it’s a ticket. You have to pay for that moment.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, wow, that is such a great way. I’m sorry, I’m having such a- keep going. Keep going.

Paul Ruiz
It’s not free.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that so much.

Paul Ruiz
You have to live. So when- when you’re going to experience ecstasy, expect that there’s going to be some sacrifice.

Sarah Noll Wilson
There’s a cost!

Paul Ruiz
There’s a cost. It’s not free. It’s a- it’s a very spiritual thing. Right? It’s a very spiritual thing. You want to go back, you want to go to a plane of, you know, you want to be transcendent. You want to be above situations. It comes at a cost.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That is- that right there, maybe will change my life. I think- I think I will now have you in my head going “Price- price of admission, Sarah.” And not in a masochistic way. Right?

Paul Ruiz
No, no, not at all. Not at all.

Sarah Noll Wilson
But just a- but just that, well, if I’m stretching-

Paul Ruiz
Fair, compassionate. Not at all. Not- not- so people will say that that’s where the phrase came, “Is it worth it?” Right, because we have to ask ourselves, right? For the things I pay for, these emotions, this anger, was it worth it? Because if it’s not stopped, then what-?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Sometimes I wish it was as simple as that.

Paul Ruiz
Yeah, of course, of course, right? I mean, you know, people, people- that- I hope it’s not that simple, otherwise we lose our jobs, right? I mean, people need to unpack and process, and there are other things to consider. That’s all true. But at the end of the day, since we’re just talking about ourselves, and the relationship and the- and this thing, you know, you’re like, you’re- you know, coaches like us, I’ve told you this, we dream of what you just achieved. There’s, like, you know, how many people are actually able to put their ideas like that, and in a platform like you have done, and, you know, I know you see it, and I know you feel it. But that comes at the price, and the price is the discomfort of it. This, and- I processed that last year, I have to thank my coach Gilbert Dennis from South Africa, because I felt that. I was feeling deeply, deeply afraid of- of my work. And there was no reason to be, because you know, it picked up, you know, there was a renewed appreciation of what coaching really does, and it’s all good. But suddenly, I got this fear of I’m losing it, I’m gonna lose my practice, etc. I didn’t know where it came from. And then all he could say was congratulations. You know. No, no, no why is that, where is that coming from, no, none of that. He’s just saying congratulations. You’ve arrived, my friend. Now you are now you are in your practice. And then that’s when I realized the scale of my practice. Yes, I’m a solopreneur. I have like, three staff with me, but the amount of business that passes through this head, and with the caring and compassion with other CEOs, it’s just amazing. And I never saw it. I never saw it. Because I was too busy. You know, I was too busy, I guess playing with that other guy. Or I was just too busy avoiding that conversation. Because I guess that’s the price, right? That’s the price we pay. We, we go through those emotions, we go through those episodes in life. And that’s what makes the other aspect now really beautiful. Ecstasy, joy, I mean, fulfillment. It’s a price. It’s just the price.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s- I’ll be so curious to hear, you know, what- what comes up for people, because I’m guessing I will- I will hear from from people. And it is, you know, whether, whether it’s that- I want to, I want to be thoughtful about what I say here, but, you know, there’s an element of how can we notice when we’re in that space, right? You think about that, the idea of the tipping point, or I’m coming up to that point of stretch versus where I’m comfortable and, and to be comfortable, and this comes from, you know, I think from a mindfulness practice of just observing, non judgmentally, just observing what’s coming up for you, and what do you notice. And for me, you know, get really getting curious about it. So what, what is uncomfortable about it? What- and to be honest with that, you know, just yesterday, somebody asked me the question, you know, “What are the fears that you feel like, should still, you know, show up for you?” And they had a list, and we talked about how, you know, fear of failure and fear of success can be the same side of a coin, or two sides of the same coin. And, and to just invite, invite a deep curiosity to say, huh, that’s an interesting feeling. You know, like, what’s, what’s going on there? And not with necessarily any goal to change it, just to observe it and to learn from it.

Paul Ruiz
The other night I had a very powerful conversation with my coach. And one of the things that came up was exactly that. It’s a moment. There is a moment in all of our lives, sometimes it’s just a simple, you know, strategizing with your family over dinner. Sometimes it’s a deep conversation in the boardroom that will impact hundreds of lives. But there is a moment wherein it’s just scary. Because you have to you have to now participate in this thing called life, which I need to be prepared for. So if I don’t feel prepared for it, then I just amplify that fear, right? I just amplify it. Because I know for a fact that I didn’t put in, but- so it’s very hard when, when that moment comes. It’s very hard to be composed. But there is no other way that I know. But to pause, you must slow it down a notch. Just slow it down a notch. Really try to consciously slow it down just a notch. Because life is moving at such a speed. Change has become my most favorite description of change right now, Sarah, is “rugged.”

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s not even it happens all the time, it’s, no, it’s rough.

Paul Ruiz
No, no, “rugged.” It’s very rugged. It’s very, you know, if you’re- if you’re not padded, you’re gonna get a little bit bruised. It’s rugged. And expect it to be rugged for a while, because we’re going through some form of- stage, as a species, as a planet, right? And- but there is lots of good stuff, therefore if- if I don’t pause, I miss it. I miss it. The storytelling is inside. I miss it. And it will eventually- I’m itching to link it to the next part of the question.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay. Yeah, let’s go there. No, let’s, I mean, let the thread pull you.

Paul Ruiz
Yes, and then that’s the one that helps me connect to another. Because if I miss it, then that more important relationship, which is external, I mean, well, at least from the point of view of the viewer and the listener, I’d like to say the important relationship is the external. But both are I think in equal importance, right? But for me, just for me, I’m not the scientist. I’m not a neurosurgeon. I’m not a neuroscientist. I’m not, you know, I’m just a practitioner. I’m- I’m a human being trying to learn life, and become helpful. That’s- that moment helps me now. Alright, what do I say? Do I actually say anything? Why don’t I just be quiet for another hour if that’s what the space needs, right? Or do we stop? Why don’t we just stop? That helps me now. So when leaders ask me, “You know, Paul, my sales director is like this, my CFO is like this, my supply chain guy is like this” is- my simple response will always be, “What’s the common denominator between the five people who have problems?” “You’re not trying to say me, right?” I said, “No, I’m really going to say it, so are you ready to do the work?” Because it starts from us all the time. And I’m not self flagellating or anything, it’s just true. It’s just true. If you have a fantastic relationship with the inner self, how can you make the wrong statement? How can you say the wrong thing? If you’re so full of it, love, compassion, empathy, everything that we work so hard for, in a relationship external, it has to be first you. You have to be- you have to be- first you have to be empathetic to yourself. Give yourself a break, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I feel like people need to hear that one again. Because the giving ourselves some grace, and you know, and also I do- I do believe this from the standpoint of, I can’t give to you fully what I haven’t been able to give to myself, because if I’m able to give myself space, if I’m able to give myself pause, if I’m able to slow down, I’m even that much more able to slow down with you, to give you the space ,right? To- and sometimes it might feel easier, if for me anyway, I know that when I am doing my own work, and trying to get curious with myself, and be really intentional and untangle and unlearn and to show deep levels of compassion and empathy towards myself, then it always expands me in a way to show up non judgmentally, compassionately, for the people that’s in my world. And I feel like especially now, they’re, you know, there’s been a lot of trauma over the last, right, couple of years. And I think that also there’s an element of-and I hear this from people, you know, as things open up, and as you know, people maybe move back into some older patterns there’s an unfamiliarity almost, because they realize they’re not the same person. You know, they’re like, I’m at this office now, I’m having these meetings, or I’m seeing this- these friends I haven’t seen in a couple of years, or I’m engaging with family members that I haven’t seen, and it- something doesn’t feel quite right. And I think that that’s such a perfect opportunity to, you know, invite that pause to say, well, so who am I now? What’s within me now, what’s present now? And because when I can get clear with that, then when I show up with you, I can show up in a much more authentic way. Because I’m much more present and clear about who am I now. It’s why I, you know, I joked earlier, before we got on, I think we all should introduce ourselves to each other. Because so much has happened, like, who are you now? You know, like, hey, last time I talked to you was 2020. And now, who are you? And where are you? And what have you learned? And what have you let go?

Paul Ruiz
I like the “Tell me the story.” Tell me the story rather than the, you know, your description. So, when- when I- because of the opening, and people are going back into- trying to go back, right, trying to go back, it’s impossible that you did not change, right? So, so- people have heard me say it so many times. I hate the term “new normal.” It’s just so wrong.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yes, yes.

Paul Ruiz
But- but it’s just me, right, guys? So whoever coined it, and if you’re listening, I mean, I respect you, you probably make a- you’re very successful, obviously, because like a global term. But for me, personally, it’s just inaccurate for me. Because there is nothing normal about it. It- no, there was no preparation for anyone to go through what we went through. I mean, deep gratitude that we are survivors of it, we are learning from it, and we are seemingly evolving within it. The pandemic, death, and disease, and everything, everything that changed on account of what happened in the last, what, 24 months, right? So, as we go back there now, very clearly, as I agree with you, you’ve changed. You’ve changed. And that’s, that’s really a critical transparency question to begin with right now. Right? And I think the leaders, I’m very fortunate because I’m surrounded now with CEOs who have deep, deep personal investments in that reality that people have changed. Some good, some really tragic. But we’re all coming back. So why don’t we just gear down a little bit? Invest valuable time in really asking, what’s the story? So one of the things that emerged to us, let’s stop asking people how they are. Just ask them, what happened to you? And I listen, what happened over the last few months? I know we’ve been zooming. I know we’ve been constantly, you know, transacting, but really what happened? What happened to you over the last few months? So, so that’s one of the things that we’re teaching managers now. When they do the check-in we teach them, you know, ask the story, make people tell stories, and if they don’t want to tell the story, just be patient. But- but, you know, one manager asked me “So, Coach, if you actually say, how are you? Is that bad?” I said, no, no, no, not at all. I’m sure you meant it. I’m sure you really meant it. So go ahead. I mean, don’t shun the question, right? I mean, it’s okay. But the interest will- the interesting facts come out when you, when you ask people to describe what’s going on. Like what, what happened to you? What happened to you, right, what happened to you? Or, or if that’s too deep, you can always ask, where are you now? What’s going on in your place? And they can answer it any way they want. They can answer in the house, at work, inside. For you, if you get lucky, and then people feel safe, they go deep, fast. That’s what I noticed too, Sarah. People are willing to go deep fast. You’ll be surprised at the willingness of people.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s the- you know what’s coming up for me is, early on in the pandemic, one of one of our colleagues, a friend of mine, she said, “The leaders are doing a good job of asking people how they’re doing, but it is clear they are really unprepared for the answers.” And so, you know, so what- so what- what advice or perspective would you give, as people who are listening to this, you know, might be thinking, I want to try asking and listening different. I want to try asking that question of, you know, what’s your story or what’s, what’s, where are you now? What- what- I don’t want to say tips, because that makes it sound so transactional, but I think it’s okay to say, you know, what are some perspectives that would be important for people to hold on to? Or maybe even some traps? You know ’cause I can name a couple traps we’re quick to want to fix people’s problems, like what do I need to do to remove your pain?

Paul Ruiz
Can I help you? Woah, really? Really? I need help now?

Sarah Noll Wilson
I actually need someone to take out my laundry tonight. My dishes are piling up. Oh, that wasn’t what you meant.

Paul Ruiz
Can you teach kids? Yeah, sure. Right? You know. So tips are fine, actually. But I think they’re- I am happy to share lessons for free. We love to- I love to do that. And the lesson really is it starts from asking the questions to yourself. I go back to that. That’s the tip. Get the- get a nice journal. Get the- get the- you know, a nice pen that you like, but you can go back if you want to do it. But I like- I like the, the paper pen distance, and when you move your arm, there’s so much intentionality into it as compared to your fingers for some reason, right? I mean, I’m sure, I’m sure this thing is true. And when- when you answer the questions yourself, you realize that okay, these are the kinds of answers that could come. So honesty, to self, willingness to be vulnerable to self is great practice fields, more specially if you really mean it. If you really mean it, that’s why I- since I mean it, it’s everything to me. Or when I coach somebody, I’m gonna prepare big time internally. I don’t read coaching books or frameworks, I have coaching notes about clients, but to be honest, I don’t, I- that was that was that conversation. This next one, this is different. Every body is different every day. This reality is- this is critical. Everybody, you think you know that person, you sleep with that person, you live with that person, you- you’re meeting that person every day, you have cadence meetings weekly, everybody is different, every moment, every day. So that requires deep empathy, deep intentional empathy. Openness. You have to be open. You have to be accepting, you have to be- you just have to be kind, you really have to be kind, and patient. And- because tomorrow is a different person. Same person, same look, same box in the Zoom call, but they’re different. They change every day.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What- what I imagine, what would be possible in- for ourselves, for our relationships, for work, if we had more moments of remembering that, and being open to that, right, and checking those assumptions, not jumping to conclusions, and to show up and go, well this conversation in this moment, this is- this is this, and that openness, not only to the other person to go, they’re different today, but also to remind yourself, and you’re different too. I think that’s- I think that’s really beautiful and I’m- and you know, we talk about that, you know, when we’re honest with ourselves, and being able to make those connections, relationships and building those connections, there’s- I mean, yes, there’s complexities because humans are complex, but it’s so powerful when we can just slow down and be with somebody. And it’s so powerful when they know that you’re just being with them. And vice versa. That sometimes, you know, you mentioned earlier at the very beginning about, you know, you try to use simple words, but there’s some simplicity of just, what does it look like to just meet this moment, from that place of deep compassion, of deep empathy, of deep curiosity, of whatever- whatever this moment needs, and to- to give the space to the fact that you’re both different. I love that.

Paul Ruiz
And that both of you can forget, and that both of you can relapse. That’s, that’s the vital thing, too. It’s one thing to be aware of all of this nice virtues, right. But the most, I think, very vital, is also remembering that hey, it’s okay, you missed- that was a little bit judgey. Or, hey, it’s okay, I think that was uncalled for. But yeah, it’s okay too, because we relapse more than do good stuff. That’s what life- life- life is an amazing journey of mistakes. We constantly make mistake, mistake, mistake, mistake, mistake. And I guess, in the grand accounting of life, you- you probably have like, what, maybe 85%, 90% mistakes and then 10% glorious moments. And the 10% glorious moment is like, life. That’s- I’m so happy I was born because of those 10. But 90% really is just every day I’m screwing up, or I’m saying I’m hurting somebody else. Well, I will confess, right? I mean, I hope this does not ruin my brand. But that’s me. As a coach, actually, that’s me. I’m so conscious of the fact that I make so many mistakes. And it can get to me, but sometimes- but I’m also very clear that you know, just as we- as we’re speaking now, I’m really sorry, I’m- because I have my notes on my phone, but I also- a message popped up, and the message says, and I just want to read it on air, “Coach, I want to thank you. I just got awarded as Segment Leader of the Year.” I was working with this coachee, and they were- having they’re having their national sales convention online right now as we speak. And he just got awarded, and he messaged me just now. And so, so it makes me think, right, okay, I think I did something good last year.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That 10%. He got a percentage of a percent last year.

Paul Ruiz
So that, that moment, it’s serendipity, just reminds me at this exact moment as we speak that we are flawed. We will make mistakes, we will relapse, but the intensity of our intention to do good should be okay. It will be fine. It will come out.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s the- it’s the- I often say regrettable events are inevitable in relationships. Alright, sandpaper moments are inevitable, we get tired, we get hangry, we’re stressed, we have different values, we have, you know, different skills. And, you know, or, you know, or when I think about, you know, because I know a lot of our work and my love of the amygdala got amplified during the work with Judith, and the conversational intelligence work is we can’t we can’t always stop the initial reaction. It’s- it happens too fast, right? The regrettable events can happen. It’s too fast, but we can recover from them. We can learn from them. We can reflect from them. And we can, you know, we can do a little better because of them. And- but, but we have to be willing to slow down and pause.

Paul Ruiz
And prepare. And prepare.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And reflect. And prepare, yeah.

Paul Ruiz
So when, when you prepare, you’re right, you cannot avoid, it’s too fast. But if you’re prepared, sometimes you go through it alone. Can you imagine how many sandpapers you’ve just saved? You goes through it alone. You goes through it. Okay, okay, okay. I don’t like this topic. I don’t like this meeting. Okay, I allow it, I’m gentle to myself, and I just let it go. Go, pass, all right. So now I’ve gone through it, the chances that it’s come- because you’ll never know it’s gonna come up. It does not announce itself, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hey, just so you know, Sarah, in 15 minutes I’m going to trigger.

Paul Ruiz
Yes, I’m about to-

Sarah Noll Wilson
Just so you know.

Paul Ruiz
Just so you know, I’m really winding this up. Right? So it never, it-

Sarah Noll Wilson
I’ve got reinforcements.

Paul Ruiz
Right? So when, when we go through that practice of self awareness, whatever form- I mean, everything works- there’s, there’s no- I think it’s a very deep personal thing, that’s why I really try to avoid telling people what you should do this. I mean, the one I shared earlier, that’s me, I never- it’s just something that came organic because of what’s available to me. But for all of us, I think it’s very important that you go through it yourself, be very kind to yourself when you realize these emotions, these ideas that are uncomfortable and bothersome. And acknowledge them for what they really are. They are ideas, they are thoughts, they are not you. You are the soul. God is inside you. You’re full of love. You’re beautiful, you’re wonderful, you’re energetic, regardless of what form your body is in, or shape you’re in. So if you allow that, then you have a good chance, you know, I mean, I might have underplayed it, it’s probably- I don’t know, maybe 60- 60/40, right? People might think I’m pessimist, but no, I’m not, if you can see my face, I love life. I love to be alive. And regardless of how difficult it is, it’s just it’s better. I love it. I enjoy it. Because of my choice.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s the- it’s the- it’s the price we get to pay. Right? To live this life. It’s going back to that. Paul, this has been such a treat. I would like to, before I ask the final question, I would like to, if you’re listening to this, and you want to reflect on and share what’s been your story, to feel free to share that with us either on social media or you can send me a message at podcast at SarahNollWilson.com and I’ll share that with Paul, and we’ll hold space- I hope you’re okay that I’m offering this up. I think you’ll-

Paul Ruiz
Oh, please. I’d love to, yes. I will.

Sarah Noll Wilson
So if- if we can be of service, and ride along you in your own journey of self awareness and self care and, and building that manual for yours- I always think of it as a manual, like I have a Sarah manual, and you have a Paul manual, and what it looks differently for both of us, right? But I do want to extend that invitation to our listeners that if you want a place to have your story heard and to be seen and witnessed, feel free to share that with us. And it can be a voice note, it could be a video, or even just a text and we would love to walk- walk alongside you. Paul. I want to ask you the question that I love to ask all of our guests, and that is, what- what is a conversation you’ve had with yourself, or with someone else that was transformative?

Paul Ruiz
Very recently we went through a very difficult situation because of the pandemic, when you know, very recently, this was last week, and we had to- there was lots of conflict here at home, but we’re all good now, so it’s nice to be able to say that live. We’re good. And in one of the moments, the topic was forgiveness. Forgiveness. Because I think now, because we’re on edge, business is bad, or people have lost a job, or we start to live together physically, and it’s tough to a lot of people. And so I’m speaking to the audience who are having that, right? The space has become smaller. You’re feeling that the world is becoming smaller. The space, it’s just too tight, and therefore, other people tend to become a source. And forgiveness is critical, I think, to the next step. But it’s very hard, especially if there’s baggage to unpack. So I asked somebody who I trust very much, a mentor of mine, actually, one of my sisters. And I was telling her about an emotion that I was going through, and how forgiveness is tough, and how I could help somebody forgive somebody else. And then she, she said something to me, which just was amazing. She said, “Will it. You don’t have to do it. Just will it. Will.” And it’s so true to me, because I think will is the most powerful human capacity. The will to love, the will to forgive, the will to care. So if you will, it, even if you don’t forgive yet, don’t even- you don’t have to go through the process of “I’ll sit you down, and then I’ll say I forgive you for everything.” Because that’s the tough part. The will. Just work on that everyday, and it was such an amazing thing to have been shared. And I want to share it to everybody. If you’re having a hard time, forgiving, just will it. You don’t have to do it right away. One day, it will.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Paul, I love you. I love you so much. And I really, I mean that not in aflippant way, but I have such- I have such deep respect for you. And I am so grateful, I’m so grateful that our paths crossed, and I- I feel like every conversation I leave with you, you remind me and help me be a better human. So thank you so much for continuing to be you, for joining me today, and hopefully helping others receive the same as I feel like I always receive with you. So thank you, Paul.

Paul Ruiz
It is most welcome. I love you, and Nick too, deeply. Your work, both of you, is amazing. The work that you do with your team, the work, I know that, because we’ve talked about that. I’ve met some of your team before, and it shows that, the love that resonates in your group. So it’s amazing. You continue to inspire me, you continue to inspire so many other young people in the helping job. Coaches, counselors, writers, teachers, and you guys are a blessing. And it’s wonderful to be here with both of you, all of you, everybody behind the scenes. Thank you for this wonderful show. Your Conversations on Conversations, I think, is- it’s an amazing gift. And it’s so nice that you’ve given it away.

Sarah Noll Wilson
So Paul, one final question for the people who are listening to this and want to become friends with you, and love on you the way that I get to, what is the best way for people to connect with you? Well, obviously, we’ll put all of your social links in the show notes, but what is the easiest way that you would like people to find you?

Paul Ruiz
Oh, sure. Leadersintransition.ph. Please go ahead and log on to our website, Leadersintransition.ph. I am Paul Ruiz, we- we help leaders think, communicate, and act on it. That’s it. Thank you again, Sarah, and Nick, and the entire team behind the show. It was- it was amazing. Despite the jackhammer.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I was just gonna say, because this might get cut out, but I was like, I do think we need to give thank you to Janice, because so- I don’t know what we’re gonna keep in the show, but we are going to keep this. True story, a jackhammer started going off. You probably heard it in the beginning, and then you noticed it went away, because Janice, and I quote Paul, stormed out there, and asked them-

Paul Ruiz
And pleaded-

Sarah Noll Wilson
And pleaded with them to stop jackhammering for an hour. So-

Paul Ruiz
You will be surprised how kind people are when you ask them nicely.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That feels like a really great way to end. Paul. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. And with that, yeah, thank you. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations. I know that I very much enjoyed talking to my good friend Paul Ruiz about various topics related to how do we navigate the voice in our head, how does that impact our ability to connect with other people, and one thing I do want to call out, is that a couple of times he and I mentioned a woman named Judith, and I just want to introduce and talk about her for a moment. Judith E. Glaser is a- she was a researcher who created the concept of conversational intelligence. And we lost her a number of years ago to cancer. And her research very much informs the work that we do, and so she was a very important mentor in both of our lives, so I just wanted to give her some love. There is so much I’m going to hold on to for this conversation, but one thing that is still resonating with me was that moment when he said “That’s the price of admission, to have those moments of- of joy and exhilaration, that maybe there’s a stretch or a discomfort there, to get to that level.” I’m very much processing that. So with that, for more information on holding deeper, more meaningful conversations with others, or if you’d simply like to reach out, you can connect with us on SarahNollWilson.com. You can also connect with me on social media. You can find me on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, just search Sarah Noll Wilson. Also, you can pick up a copy of my latest book, “Don’t Feed the Elephants,” wherever books are sold. And if you enjoyed today’s episode, I want to talk about a couple of ways that you can support us. So first, you can support our work by visiting patreon.com backslash Conversations on Conversations, where not only will your financial support sustain this podcast, every- every a dollar goes to supporting the team that puts this on, while I’m the one on the camera, there’s a whole crew behind me making the show what it is. But you’ll also get access to some pretty great benefits like swag, Patreon-only content, and events. I want to give us a shout out to one of our special Patreons, Stephanie Chin, for her support, and ongoing support, and we’re so grateful for her. Please take time to rate and review and subscribe to the show. When you do this, this helps us be able to get the word out, it helps us when we are bringing on guests. So if you like the show, we would be honored to get a five star review from you on iTunes, Spotify, or other podcast platforms. Also if you have questions for us, or you want to share what resonated, or you just, you know, you want to say kind things about Paul that I can pass along and make him giggle. We’d love to hear from you. You can email us at podcast at SarahNollWilson.com, you can also follow the podcast on Twitter at Convos on Convos. And finally, if you are really enjoying the show, and you think others might too, help us spread the word. Tell a friend, post about it on social media. You know, if you want to create an afghan with a Conversations on Conversations logo on it and give it to someone. But we want these conversations to reach as many ears as possible, so helping people find the podcast is another great way to show your support. I want to give a huge thank you and shout out to our incredible team who makes this podcast possible. To Drew Noll and Nick Wilson for the editing and producing of the show, to Olivia Reinert who helps us with transcriptions, and to Kaitlin Summitt-Nelson for all of her amazing marketing support. We couldn’t do it without you. A final thank you to our guest, Paul Ruiz. He is just something. He’s incredibly special, and I’m so glad that you all got to meet him. And just a final reminder, that when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and with others, I firmly believe that we can change the world. Thank you all for listening. Take care, be well, and don’t forget to drink water.

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