Episode 006: A Conversation on Owning Your Language with Anne Tomkinson

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and Anne Tomkinson as they discuss the importance of owning your language in every situation you find yourself in.

About our guest

Anne Tomkinson is a certified coach with nearly 20 years in People Operations with a focus on Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Anti-Racism. Her work includes transforming organizational culture, leadership coaching, public speaking, and designing, implementing and facilitating learning for organizations, boards and leadership teams to bring an equity lens to systems and processes. Anne believes that when individuals experience liberation, organizations flourish.

Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Welcome to Conversations on Conversations, the show where each week we have conversations about a topic that helps us have deeper conversations and more powerful relationships with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, and- I’m thrilled every week, but this week I’m also thrilled to invite Anne Tomkinson as our special guest this week. And let me give you her formal bio and then I’ll explain a little bit about how I know Anne and why I’m so excited for you all to meet her. So Anne Tomkinson, you, my dear are a- she’s a certified coach with nearly 20 years in people operations with a focus on diversity, equity, inclusion and anti-racism. Her work includes transforming organizational culture, leadership, coaching, public speaking, and designing, implementing and facilitating learning for organizations, boards and leadership teams to bring an equity lens to systems and processes, and believes that when individuals experience liberation, organizations flourish. I- Anne, I was trying to remember when you and I met, because we first connected on Twitter, back in possibly 2018. 2019-?

Anne Tomkinson
Something like that? I think were the first time I met you in person was in Chicago.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yes. At the SHRM conference, the HR conference, and we sat on the floor together.

Anne Tomkinson
Yeah, I think that was 2018.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, that was a long time ago.

Anne Tomkinson
Yeah, we sat on the floor together. Yes, I vividly remember that, because I don’t sit on the floor for just anyone.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And I sit on the floor all the time without thinking. But- but I have had a chance to get to know Anne on a personal level, and even for my own growth and development, I had the honor of working with Anne as a coach for a number of months during 2020, as she worked with coaching me and helping me with my personal growth and development and looking at the work that we were doing through a lens of systemic oppression. And, you know, and Anne before I bring you on, you know, one of the things I just- what I’m really excited about with this conversation is, you know, this whole series is intended for us to pause, reflect, think differently about how we’re thinking, how we’re talking, and sometimes that’s not going to always be comfortable. And sometimes there are truths or realities that we need to consider and get curious about. And so I’m really excited where we’re going to dive in today, which is, you know, really exploring the power of the words that we use. But before we do that, hi, Anne.

Anne Tomkinson
Hi, Sarah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What would you like, what would you like our audience to know about you beyond what I’ve already shared?

Anne Tomkinson
What I would want people to know about me, I think one of the most important things about me is my grandkids. I’m a grandmother, I have two granddaughters, I tell everyone that grandchildren are the best thing ever. Everyone should get some.

Sarah Noll Wilson
But it’s a lot of work to get there like I want the grandkids, but I don’t- I don’t want the kids to have to make the grandkids.

Anne Tomkinson
You know, I think that those kinds of relationships are really important. And I don’t think that you have to have your own biological children or raise your own children to have those kinds of relationships. I think kids- kids benefit from having people in their lives who pour into their lives and love them and give them attention. And that can be nieces or nephews or niblings, that can be your neighbor’s kids, that can be any children that are in your sphere will benefit from having you in their sphere.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s a really great point. What do you love most about being a grandma? What’s one thing? I was gonna say, I don’t want to have you choose. I never like to ask people to choose.

Anne Tomkinson
Yeah, a thing that I love is just watching them grow, right? Because when I was raising my kids, there’s watching them grow and being responsible for everything. And now I get to watch these little people, I was just looking at some pictures from about five years ago when they were toddlers, and they were so cute. And I remember, like, that time and I just shared a story on Facebook from five years ago when they were telling me like the cutest little things, and then yesterday my daughter sent me an essay that my oldest granddaughter just wrote in school, and she had an outline, and notes, and all of this on what it takes to be a good recorder player, and it was like, to watch from you know, her saying “Nice nannies don’t wash our faces, I don’t like that,” five years ago, to a five paragraph essay on what it takes to be a good recorder player and how music brings happiness. It’s just- yeah. It’s amazing to get to have a piece of that, and yeah, I think that’s the thing that I love the most.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that. So for those of you who are listening, one of the things that I want to share about the relationship that I have with Anne, is that she has become a confidant and somebody that I reach out to when maybe I’m struggling or realize that maybe I had a regrettable event or a missed opportunity. And I know for me on my personal journey, this idea of our words create our worlds was a concept that I first learned about when I was learning about appreciative inquiry, and I want to just start there, just from the standpoint of that idea of our words create our reality. And I’m curious to hear your thoughts on that, Anne and why you feel it’s so important for us to be thoughtful about the words we use for ourselves and also with other people.

Anne Tomkinson
Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, our words create our reality, and our worlds create a reality for the people around us. Right? So, for example, well, you know, one of the things that I do is I tell people whenever I make a mistake, because I want to- one of the things that I want to do is remove the scariness of “Oh, what if I say the wrong thing,” right? And I realized in a conversation this morning, I said something was crazy. And even as it came out of my mouth, I was like, oh no, that’s ableist language. And it- being careful about language like that does two things, so for me internally, when I’m really careful about that language, it makes me much more aware. Right? So it’s not just I don’t want to use ableist language, because that’s offensive to people, you know, to disabled people. I don’t want to use ableist language, because I don’t want to think of disabilities in that way. Right? But it also- it doesn’t just affect disabled people who hear me use that language, it also affects anyone who hears me use that language. Because when we use, you know, ableist language, we’re telling the world that it’s okay, that disabled people don’t matter that we can, you know, minimize their experience. And I don’t want to, I don’t want to, I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to be that person. So you know, I want to be a person who’s careful, so that the worlds that I’m creating with my words for myself and for everyone around me, is the world that I want to live in.

Sarah Noll Wilson
There’s always moments where I’m like, can you repeat that again?

Anne Tomkinson
I can’t, I never know what I’ve just said.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right? But that idea of, I want to be thoughtful with my words so I can create the world that I want to live in, right, and for other people. And I- you know, one of- one of the intentions behind these conversations is also to piece out and to identify moments of practice that people can consider using in their own life. And so there’s a couple that really resonate with me. One is that awareness of owning your mistakes when you say something wrong, right? Whether that, you know, whether that is catching yourself from saying something from an ableist perspective, perhaps from an oppressive perspective, sexist, I mean, any -ism if you will add to it, or maybe, or maybe it’s coming from a place of a stress response trigger. And you, you know, you just, you’re a little sharp, because you’re coming in from that moment, and just- and normalizing that. I love that idea of really normalizing naming the mistake, because I know there are times for me where you sit there in your head, and you go, oh shoot, I didn’t- Oh, crud. And what a beautiful opportunity, not only for yourself, but also to your point, to normalize for other people repairing and owning and acknowledging and naming. And so that’s, that’s one thing I want to highlight. And the other is I love the nuances and the complexity of how you broke down, that it isn’t just how we- it isn’t just about how we think and feel for ourselves, it’s also how other people experience us and, right, the world we create for them, but it’s also how we think and experience how we think about the world. That’s a layer that is really resonating for me right now. Yeah.

Anne Tomkinson
You can edit this out if you want, but can I just challenge you a little bit? You said whether it’s through an ableist lens or an oppressive lens or any of the -isms and I’m wondering why you don’t see ableist as oppressive.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, I do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I do I just was- I was- no, I appreciate that. I do think- I do see it as that I just was expanding on in addition to. Yeah, no, I- I don’t- I appreciate that pushback. You know, and, I mean, this is why I love you. I think that that’s a- that’s a good- I mean, it’s a good thing for me to reflect on. For me, it was it was expanding beyond that. But that’s not to say, there might not be something potentially in there in an unconscious way that may not connect that. Yeah. Let me- let me you know, let me let me ask you this. You know, one of the things as I was thinking about preparing for this conversation is there’s a quote that’s resonant for me and it comes from Margaret Wheatley, who does a- she’s an author and she talks a lot about complexity in the workplace and leadership. And one of the quotes that she has is, “Without reflection, we go blindly on our way, creating more unintended consequences and failing to achieve anything useful.” And I was curious just to share that with you ,and to see what comes up for you because the idea of being intentional with our language requires us to have a deeper level of reflection than maybe we’re used to having.

Anne Tomkinson
Yeah, it really does. And I- I love that quote. I’ve not heard it before, but I really love that quote. I think- I think sometimes when people think about being careful with their language, it’s kind of like a checklist. Oh, I shouldn’t say this, because it’s ableist or it’s sexist or it’s racist or it’s- whatever it might be. So I’m not supposed to say it, so I’ll stop saying it. And that takes away the nuance of the reflection. Like, why do I say that? Why is that so easy for me to say? You know, going back to my example of words, like ableist words like “crazy,” one reason it’s easy to say is because everybody says it. And then it’s like, well wow, why does everybody say it, why is that okay? You know? Yeah, it has to be so much more than a checklist because our words create our worlds, but we choose our words, right? So we’re not just- we can just be thoughtlessly spitting things out and creating a world that we have no idea what it is that we’re creating, and I think that’s what the quote is getting at. Right. Like, if we don’t have some reflection, then we don’t know what we’re creating. And we’re putting things out there that, you know, I don’t think they’re- I don’t think that there’s- I don’t think that there are many people out in the world who would say they don’t care about, you know, other people, they don’t care, you know, if they’re going around stumping on people and hurting people and causing harm. Like most people would say, no, that’s not who I want to be, I want to be somebody that, you know, cares about people. I don’t want to cause harm. But then they don’t think about how to make that happen, or why those intentions aren’t being realized. Right? So it’s easy to say I want to be a good person, I am a good person, I’m gonna think of myself as a good person without thinking like, well, what- what does a good person look like? And what makes a good person? And how do I become a good person? And then how do I understand that all of my lofty aspirations are aspirations, and I’ll get closer and closer and closer and I will never fully hit it, so that I don’t beat myself up when I missed the mark. I just go back and think, well, why did that slip out today? Why was that so easy? You know, what was it- what was going on in my mind, what was it about the conversation, like how did how did that happen? Not in a, “Oh, my goodness, how did that happen?” But like, really reflect, how did that happen? And I have not spent much time reflecting on that because it did literally just happen, you know, in a meeting right before I got on the call with you. So- but it is something that I want to spend some time with, like I’ve gotten pretty good at not using ableist language like that, and then there it was, and why- you know, what was it? What was it in that moment? I don’t know.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What- you know, one of the things- one of the things that I’d love to hear is, you know, when you and I were were talking about what did we want to explore together, one of the things that you mentioned was you used to be, or you historically were a fairly sarcastic person, which I resonated with, because it’s something that I, you know, I sometimes say sometimes sarcasm is my love language, but then I realized how sharp it can be, so I’m curious to, you know, paint the picture for us of, you know, as best you can in the time we have of your journey, you know, what, what has your journey been, or what were some of those key moments in your journey that took you perhaps from a- I’m making an assumption here, but perhaps from a place of maybe not being as intentional, maybe not being as as curious, maybe, you know, not slowing down enough and, right, we- all of us spend a lot of our time on autopilot. And to where you are now, from a standpoint of wanting to be not only for yourself, but help others, be much more intentional about the world that they create through their words.

Anne Tomkinson
Yeah, you know, it’s funny, when we look back, sometimes it’s easy to find those pivotal moments and then sometimes it’s not, right? Like the journey is so gradual. And it’s not like you wake up one day and you say, I am about to go on a journey to become, you know, a person who no longer relies on sarcasm as a defense mechanism. I- I mean, to be honest, the sarcasm thing I didn’t even realize until probably in the last year or so, like, oh, I don’t think I’m sarcastic any- I don’t think I’m sarcastic anymore. Right? I didn’t- it wasn’t something that I was working toward, I think it’s a byproduct. And there are still some pivotal moments, right? I’ve- I’ve always been interested in justice and equity and for a long time I came at it from a very uneducated place of privilege, right, where I could be a good- a good white person, I could be a good straight, cis woman, I could be a good, you know, all of the- all of the privilege that I hold, which is a lot of privilege, like I could just I could do good. And there was a lot of unlearning there. And I think one of the most pivotal things for me, is I was in a fellowship in 2019. And it was- it was the Nexus fellowship, and it was a fellowship, it was the first time I was ever in a place that was deliberately decolonized, it was created for the people of color and in many ways specifically the black people in the room. And it was the first place I’d ever been where my experience was not centered. Right? Which was not to say that I wasn’t welcomed, or that I wasn’t loved, or that I wasn’t, you know, fully included, but my experience wasn’t centered. And I went into that fellowship, this year long program, and I went in, and the question that I went in was, what is my role as a white person in doing this kind of good work? And then when I got there I realized, no, the question is, who am I? What does liberation looks like for me? And when I experience liberation then I’ll know how I’m supposed to show up in the world and then that will be the work that I’m supposed to do. And then for whatever reason, because I think all of us are called to different- there’s so much work to be done, I think we’re all called to different things. And for whatever reason, the thing that I’m really called to is to mess up publicly. Like, share all of the, you know- I think because I have so much privilege, I don’t want to be somebody that goes around, like, sharing the answers, because there’s nothing I can say that, you know, a black woman hasn’t said better, right? But I know- the thing that I know, my lived experiences, I know how to be, you know, specifically around anti-racism, I know how to be a white person that is constantly bumping up against the white supremacy that’s inside of me, that’s the thing that I’ve got, that’s my lived experience that I can share. So, you know, it helps that I’m an extrovert, and I’ve always shared all my experiences with everybody and I’ve always been, you know, telling my life story to the person behind me in the grocery store line, made it a little bit easier, but I think that that it is more then “Oh, and so therefore I became careful about language and so not so much sarcasm, and now really being intentional about the words that I use.” That is a- that is a product of, that’s like a result of leaning into that liberation and being willing to be vulnerable to myself and then outside of myself. Right, because you can’t really be that vulnerable, like you can’t be sarcastic and vulnerable in the same moment. I don’t think. I can’t.

Sarah Noll Wilson
No. I- there’s a- boy, there’s a couple of different paths that I’m curious to explore with you. I think it- you know, I want to talk to sort of briefly about the sarcasm because that’s something that I see a lot in, you know, the work that we do or, right, you know sometimes that’s just how we interact with people or engage with them. And, you know, and so sometimes there’s, there’s places of, you know, just joking around or loving teases, and then it is, I think it’s a worthwhile exploration to go when- when is it- when does it shift from that, to being more defensive? When is it because maybe I am uncomfortable being vulnerable, and this is the way that I feel like I can show it, that feels safe and protected. And I think, you know, I imagine that there’s quite a few people listening who probably resonate with this. And then, and then your comment about how it wasn’t necessarily that that was your goal, but by becoming, becoming more intentional, and being willing to, you know, leaning into that, I’m gonna publicly on when I mess up, and that’s how I realized my role that the output of that was you became even more thoughtful about your language, right? You build those muscles even more. It’s so important for white people to have these conversations, right? And one of the things that I know that I struggled with, and I think I still do sometimes, like, I don’t think I know, but it’s something that I hear- but you’ve just heard recently, from a client that we are talking to is this, “I’m so afraid of saying the wrong thing.” And so then what happens, you know, specifically in the context of talking about inclusion, and racism and anti-racism, and I’m so- and so there’s this caution, and so then the default is I’m just not going to say anything. Right? Instead of leaning into that. And I want to, I’d love to explore and unpack that of, you know, understanding that, where that comes from, but also why that’s actually quite problematic. When we’re coming from that place of essentially, I’m protecting my comfort instead of-

Anne Tomkinson
At the cost of.

Sarah Noll Wilson
At the cost, yes. Right. At the cost of real harm to others. And I say I want to be a good person, and I care about people, and yet the the way I’m showing up, the language I’m using or the conversations I’m avoiding are actually causing harm. So I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.

Anne Tomkinson
Yeah, I think especially for white people who, you know, were socialized and grew up in the United States. And we talked about this too, right, and like in the Midwest, right, like the culture of, I can’t even remember what you call it. But you know.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I call it violent politeness.

Anne Tomkinson
Violent politeness.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Violent but like, niceness, you know. We’re gonna be nice.

Anne Tomkinson
Yeah, but I think kind of no matter where you were brought up there’s this idea that, you know, it’s not polite to talk about race, right? It’s not- it’s not polite to name the things that are not comfortable. And I frankly think that that’s a lie of white supremacy, right? Because it allows us to center our comfort at the cost of everybody else around us. It’s not polite for me to name race, it’s not polite for me to name disability, it’s not polite for me to name all of these things, therefore, I get a pass and I don’t have to do it, and I can keep moving forward, you know, harming other people thinking that I’m doing the right thing, because my comfort is- I’m masking that centering of my comfort with this veneer of politeness and niceness. I have a friend one time who said to me, “I’d rather be good than nice.” And I think about that all the time, right? I would rather be of good character, I would rather be of good competence, you know, I’d rather be good and all the ways that one can be good, than nice. And when you can be good and nice at the same time, go for it, right? There’s no- like, you don’t have to just be mean. “Like I don’t have to be nice,” right? But if the choice is good, or nice, then you know go for good. And that fear that you have of saying the wrong thing, you’ll say the wrong thing. Then we say the wrong thing. I am- a colleague of mine, Clare Haus, who I was actually just speaking with this morning, in another context, I heard her say one time, “You know, as a white person doing this kind of work, of course I’m going to cause harm. Of course I’m going to cause harm. I am choosing to cause harm in service to liberation, and not in service to fear.” And that is the best, the best thing, right? The best way to think about it. So I’m not going to stop because I might cause harm. I know I’m going to get it wrong. I know I’m going to mess it up. But I’m going to keep on stepping out there, I’m going to keep making repair where I need, I’m going to keep learning the things, I’m going to get, I’m going to get better at this. And the only, you know, like everything else, right, how do you become a good recorder player? It’s through practice. How do you become good at anything? It’s through practice. So how do you become good at navigating these kinds of conversations and saying the wrong thing less often, is by practice, and when you’re practicing an instrument, you hit the wrong note you just keep going. Right? And maybe you’re doing it in the privacy of your own room, and maybe you’re doing it in front of other, you know, family and friends. And maybe you get to the point where you’re performing a concert in front of strangers, and you still hit the wrong note, and you just keep going. Right? So you say the wrong thing, you make the mistake, you cause harm, you admit it, you repair, you know, you do your part in the repair, and you keep going. And it happens less often.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Or it may become perhaps a little less painful. Not that that’s necessarily the goal, you know, but, I think anytime- it’s one of the things when we talk about I feel like I’m a broken record is, generally speaking about relationships, right, regrettable events are inevitable. We’re going to have these moments, but then especially looking at it through the lens of being a white person and working to explore how can I show up in a way that it truly is inclusive. How can I- how can I understand the biases I hold whether they’re conscious, or unchecked, or unconscious? Right, just like you, you know, checked me earlier, it’s like, well, that’s my- like I’m gonna have to get curious about that. Like, there was something, potentially something in my brain and you know, and I think about my good friend, Stephanie Chin who’s been such an important person in my life personally, but also in doing this work from a standpoint of how can I show up more powerfully? How- you know, like, who am I? Who do I want to be? And you know, and that’s the thing that she constantly reminds me is, yeah, Sarah, you’re gonna mess up. But it’s in those moments where either when you realize it, or somebody helps you realize it, and it’s not- I mean, it’s not comfortable. Because, you know, we all- I shouldn’t say we all, but many of us, like you said earlier, we want to do good. We want to show up. You know, I think of myself as a very open person, and yet there’s so much, you know, conditioning and cultural conditioning that is within me and untangling that, that I don’t even maybe realize is impacting how I’m showing up. But in that moment of, you know, for me, it’s that, yeah, that’s the- I want to get- I want to get real curious, so instead of shutting down and shutting up, I want to get real curious about why is that so uncomfortable? For me? And also- and why is it also true the feedback that they gave me? Or like, if somebody calls me out, or they offer a perspective, or, or whatever the case is, is that’s not always, for me anyway, it’s not comfortable. But it’s the- you know, I just posted, shared this on a LinkedIn post, and it’s- I have it written at my desk, which is Minda Harts. Someday, she’s one of my dream guests, I will get her on the show. She wrote the book, “The Memo” and “The Right Within,” and “The Right Within” really explores this idea of healing from racial trauma. And one of the things she shared during an event that I was able to participate in, was no one will benefit from your caution, but so many can benefit from your courage. And, and that just, I mean, I have a whole- goosebumps, I have sort of a pit in my stomach, I have, right, all of those emotions as I think about that, and as we think about how do we show up more powerfully, not just for ourselves, but for other people, it is going to take some courage. And but again to realize that to not do so, there is a cost others are paying in really significant ways.

Anne Tomkinson
Yeah, yeah. I heard Brene Brown one time say “If you think you’re being brave, and you’re not being vulnerable, then you’re not really being brave, because bravery is vulnerability.” And I think you’re right about the discomfort, and I think that that gets back to you know, what we were talking about earlier. This right to comfort is something that white supremacy culture and all of the things patriarchy, capitalism, all of that tells us, that we have this right to comfort, and that we don’t sort of step outside of ourselves and think about how uncomfortable other people are around us all the time, because our comfort is so important. And I think learning how to be comfortable with that discomfort is it is a really important skill. To be like, oh, there’s this thing in the pit of my stomach again, hello friends. You know, what does this mean? What am I- what am I gonna learn here? What do I need to, you know, what do I need to repair? What do I need to think about? Where did, where should my curiosity take me? And I think, you know, for me there have been times in my life that I realized that I’ve, gotten pretty comfortable, but like, in the surroundings that I’m in, there’s- I have created a world where I can be, you know, a pretty good, you know, there again, like good white person, good anti-racist, whatever. And, yeah, sometimes it’s like, well, how can I chase discomfort because if I’m too comfortable, I’m missing something, or I’m not- I’m either missing something that’s right in front of my face, or I’m not stepping into possibilities. And I don’t want to be a person that doesn’t step into possibilities.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What it’s- you know, what a powerful reflection for us and for those who are listening to think about, you know, that idea of chasing discomfort. And where might you be comfortable doing that, and where might you not be comfortable doing that. And then to get curious about both of those. And you know, I- you- because this episode hasn’t launched, but you will be coming after the interview that I did with my friend Paul, and one of the things we talked about was that voice in your head of “Oh, I see you friend,” like, so how you were saying, I wanted to connect back of, just that acknowledgement of “I see you,” and when we’re, you know, when we’re working to be, you know, brave, courageous, in our, in our relationships and our work, how we show up in the world, you know, when we’re talking now specifically through a lens of really stepping into what does it look like for me to be anti-racist, again, I go back to some wisdom that I, you know, I feel like is burned into my heart in a good way, but from my colleague and friend, Stephanie, and one of the things she said is, “When you start really doing the work of thinking about this, of exploring it, of showing up differently, when you hit moments where you want to retreat,” she’s like, “That’s actually where you’re probably making a difference in a way beyond just, right, internal thinking and reflection.” And that’s something that I think about a lot of, that- and, you know, I mean, through this work, but then also in other elements of my life of, am I, am I leaning into those possibilities into at a level that makes me go, oh shit, this is kind of scary, or I’m not sure, or am I- you know, and realizing that no, that’s actually where not only potentially can I make the most impact in the world around me, but I can make the most impact for myself. Right? To change that internal landscape so that I can show up differently.

Anne Tomkinson
Yes, yes to all of that. A thing, though, that I was thinking about while you were, while you were talking is this idea of comfort and safety. And so I think a lot of times, white supremacy tells us that if we’re uncomfortable, that means that we’re unsafe. And that’s not true. And so there is a way in which we need to really get clear on what the difference is between discomfort and lack of safety. Because if it is about discomfort, then we need to move forward and not retreat. Sometimes it actually is a lack of safety. And then the response has to be different. Right? But I would suggest that especially when it comes to anti-racism and things around race, for those of us who identify as white, most of the time it’s going to be discomfort and not safety. Right, if it is about race, right? And again, I hold a lot of privilege, but for people who are white, who are gender nonconforming, or trans, or disabled, or, you know, other- other members of other oppressed groups, then there is a difference between, you know, there are times that you’re really not safe, and think about it because you’re still white, and so there’s still an awful lot of times where you might be thinking that you’re not safe, because you’re used to being not safe in a lot of spaces, and that’s legitimate. If it’s about race, probably even still, it’s discomfort.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I think I’m going to be chewing on that a lot. I- yeah- of- just how you teased out the difference, and- and also, you know, I’m also thinking through the lens of- well, sort of flipping it a bit because I know many of the people who listen are either in positions of formal authority and power, right? Whether that’s from an HR perspective, another type of manager perspective, is- you know and also thinking about when is it unsafe for someone else that that’s more than just, it’s uncomfortable, you know, that sometimes people can over rotate, you know, when we do the work from elephants of like, “Oh, we just need to call it out,” and it’s like, well, no, sometimes it really isn’t safe. It really isn’t. And, and that I think that’s such a, that- what a powerful reflection to go, is it that I’m unsafe, or is it that I’m uncomfortable? And, and again, what’s the cost of me staying in my comfort to other people, to me, and what’s the benefit of the courage. You know, one of the, one of the gifts that you gave me, that I- I want to share with- with the group because it was something I feel like I’ve shared a bunch of times with, you know, my own clients, or colleagues or friends is, you know, when we talk about wanting to show up and wanting to show up different than- differently than maybe, you know, what the white dominant white supremacist culture has, has shaped for us, and I just, I want to call this out real quickly, because I, I will attach in the show notes some resources for people who may be unfamiliar with this phrase, or this terminology, or the concept behind it. So I’ll share some resources in the show notes. Because- because I know, I mean, even just that owning and acknowledging that there is a white dominant culture, right, the white sort of supremacy culture way of being is very present even if it’s not always conscious. I just, I wanted to- to name that for a second. But, but related to that, you know, when you and I were doing work together we- I came to you in a moment, very, very tender moment. So I’ll tell the story of it just, you know. The world was in chaos because of the pandemic, you know, and I was getting all these messages about how I should run the company, how I should show up for people. And, and I’ll never forget, you and I had a conversation, and I, I remember just being parts afraid, and also worried of, you know, what if, what if in wanting to build a company that’s truly good for humans and all humans, what, what if I’m actually too empathetic? Was the question that I asked. And, and I, you know, Anne paused and then she said, “Well, what would it look like to be too empathetic?” But it was such a powerful moment, for a couple of reasons. One, through the lens of the words that I was using. Two, through the lens of all the rules I had been taught about what it looks like to be a successful quote unquote business owner, again, through a very, you know, white dominant lens of, well, you have to be tough, and you have to be achievement oriented, and you have to have this sense of urgency, and you can’t have emotions in the workplace, and perfectionism, right, at all cost. And, you know, the list goes on. And, and unpacking that with you was was so powerful. And, and- but one of the things in exploring that was realizing that well, no like, to be- there isn’t such a thing as being too empathetic, because it doesn’t mean that I won’t hold people accountable, it doesn’t mean that we won’t, you know, won’t work through if there’s challenges. But then you explain this garden metaphor. And do you remember the, like, tangling of the roots and it gives in a. Do you remember that enough to be able to share that in your words?

Anne Tomkinson
Oh, sure, because I- this is something I share all the time. So I think of it as, when I think about like, white supremacy culture, white dominant culture, I think of it as like, I’m a garden. Right? And the flowers or the plants or the whatever it is that’s planted there because I think for each of us it’s, it looks something different, but that’s, that’s the true me. Who I really am, who I’m meant to be, who I want to be in the world. And I- you know, all of these plants have roots, right? And these roots go down and they get nurtured, and I can grow, and I can flourish, and then there’s white supremacy culture which are like the weeds in the garden, but the weeds go really deep, and the weeds are, are woven through and around- the roots of the weeds are woven through and around the roots of the plants, right? And so you can’t just look at white supremacy and say, I’m gonna, I’m gonna yank it out without doing tremendous damage to the plants, to who you truly are, right? So it’s this unwinding and unwrapping and really carefully separating so that you can then get rid of it. And they’re in deep, they’re in deep. There’s a saying that people will hear that you may have heard about how, you know, we’re like, we’re like fish in the water, snd the water around us is white supremacy. And I heard someone recently say, no, actually, we’re the water. And so these- like, I don’t believe that I’m going to be able to get all of these roots out in my lifetime, but that’s what my life’s work is, is to just keep- it’ll get easier, right? I get more nimble at doing it, I get rid of some of the bigger ones that were really clogging things up so that now I can get, you know, to the little ones that I never would have noticed before. But that, like that, that really delicate separating the roots of white supremacy culture, from the roots of who I truly am at my most liberated. It’s hard, and it’s delicate, and nuanced, and, you know, weeds just keep growing, right? So like, you have to keep doing it to get to a point where you’re doing it faster than they can grow back.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s- yeah. That like, micro incision over and over and over. And, you know, and, you know, you said earlier, you know, “I want to be someone who leans into possibilities.” And, and I- and I- and I, I think that’s such an important practice of, you know, the- something we talk about a lot within our team, or even in the work, or even just reflection, you know, Nick and I, we talk about this, are these rules and roles that have been created for us of what it means and what it looks like, and whether that’s what it means and what it looks like to work, what does professionalism look like, what does a relationship look like? What is my role as the wife? What is his role as the husband? And how, how there are things that, you know, whether they were told explicitly, or implicitly, or just conditioned, that limit us in who we who we can be, you know, that flower of who we are. And, and I mean, in this is -this, this may seem like a benign exploration for some people, but it was really quite powerful for me, and I want to share it from a standpoint of, how do we get curious about who are we really? How do we get curious about how do we really want to show up? And what are those rules, and what are those roles that have been placed on us? And, and how do we untangle from that to say, no, this is who I am, and this is how I want to show up, and that isn’t the only way, there’s lots of ways. You know, for me, it was, you know, and anyone who- who knows me knows that I, for many many years operated at one speed, like unhealthily- at an unhealthy pace, right? And, and I- and I wanted to get better at resting. And it wasn’t enough to say, “Oh, I just should nap more.” I wanted to examine my relationship with rest, and I realized that right, like so, so much of the culture is hustle, and sense of urgency, and grind, and all of this that even though I valued rest- or I thought I valued rest, I clearly didn’t because I wasn’t doing it- or I knew intellectually how important it was, it wasn’t until I took the time to, and this wasn’t a single sit down conversation, this was you know, sort of over a period of months. And I think I still have moments where it’s like, well, that’s interesting and, oh, hello, I see you. I see you voice that tells me I need to hustle, I see you voice that tells me I need to, you know, be scaling, and building my company at, you know, an incredible rate. But that, that willingness to get real curious about like, man, where did what- what have I been told or, how have I been shaped related to how I think about how I should show up in the world? And, and you know that, you know that metaphor for me of that garden and how do we really get like explore the tangling and the untangling, and that it doesn’t- it’s not just as simple as saying, “Yeah, I want to do this,” or “I want to show up in this way.” It’s oh, there’s a lot that’s going to hold me to continue showing up in a way that might be different. And you, you used the word liberation. And that’s such an intentional word I know, for you especially. And I wanted to get curious about that with you. When, when you think of liberation, what does that mean for you? And what might- what could that mean for our audience?

Anne Tomkinson
Yeah, I mean- so when I’m, when I’m thinking about liberation, it’s that thing that you just talked about, right? It’s who, who am I really without the trappings of what white supremacy or white dominant culture have said, without the trappings of what patriarchy says, without the trappings of what capitalism says, without all of the societal trappings, who am I? Who was I meant to be? Who do I want to be? What is- what is- what does that person look like? And then how do I lean into that? And give up those other things, and it’s not easy, right? Like society tells you, right, society tells you, you should be scaling your company, and you should be successful, and society says that we should be doing all these things, and they don’t all serve us. And in fact, they often, like not only don’t serve us, but actively harm us. And so liberation is- is leaning, you know, leaning out of those things and into what’s really true. And I think I’m going to now add to my garden metaphor, which I’ve never done before, but when you were talking about rest-

Sarah Noll Wilson
This is a world premiere! Sorry, continue on. Yeah.

Anne Tomkinson
There we go.Right. So like, we’re getting rid of the things, right, we’re untangling, but we also have to be nurturing the plants that belong there. Right? And so I think- when I think about liberation, it’s the untangling, but it’s also the nurturing. What am I pointing in so that the garden grows beautiful, healthy plants, that are that are the plants that are supposed to be there.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, as you’re talking, you know, what was also coming up for me is, and then, you know, how can I, what role- you know, like, you know, I’m thinking, what role can I play, but how can I be even more intentional about supporting other people on their journey of untangling and discovering and redefining and what- you know, I, I don’t think I’ve ever shared this with you, but when I when I first started my coaching journey, they wanted us to come up with like, what’s your purpose? What’s your mission? And, and what, what came up for me was the idea that, and I use the metaphor of an acorn, that if you think of a tiny little acorn, every single acorn has within it the greatness of an oak tree, as long as it’s nurtured. And you know, and, and for me, it’s how can I be the sun that nurtures the acorn to become the great oak tree it was meant to be?

Anne Tomkinson
Oh, that’s beautiful.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And so as you were talking, I mean, it’s, I feel very, quite emotional as you were, you were talking about that of, you know, the discomfort of untangling is really important. And, and sometimes the discomfort of nurturing is, is equally important. I- boy, I- also, I feel like all of these conversations, I always have moments where I’m like, “And just imagine a world where, where people could be liberated, to be their true selves, to be able to show up in the way that- of who they are, to create systems and structures that are made- or that are different than what we have, to-” And, and I, you know, when I’ve experienced that for myself, or I see that maybe in my husband, or my friends, or family members, it’s- it’s overwhelming. And, and- and, but, but the- but the weeds are still really, they’re really tight in our, in our world, right? Like, but I just sit there and go like God, imagine, imagine what would be possible. Imagine, you know, imagine what would be possible if everyone was able to lean into their, their true self. Their- that they were able to bring their full gifts forward. That they are able to you know, be the the humans they deserve to be. The world I want to live in.

Anne Tomkinson
Yeah. So that’s the world we work to create. Right? And you and I we’re not going to change the entire world, but we can change part of the world. We can change the world that’s right around us.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s a, a professor of mine once said, “Be the daisy on the onion patch.” You know? Because daisies multiply fast. So, so how do you, you know, be the daisy on the onion patch?

Anne Tomkinson
And I think, you know, the reality is we didn’t get here in a generation. So we’re not gonna, we’re not gonna solve the whole thing. You know, in our lifetime. I think a lot about, like, the people that came before us, and the people who will come after us. And I think a thing that motivates me is, I think about what kind of ancestor I want to be. Like, what’s the legacy? Because it’s not all going to get solved now.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and then not to not to let that- sometimes I think when situations can feel complex or overwhelming, or that we won’t see it done in our lifetime, right, that can also be something that can go “Well, I’m going to retreat into what’s comfortable and good for me.” But that, that reflection question, I’m definitely going to think on it, and would invite our listeners to think about that idea of, you know, what’s your legacy? What’s, what kind of ancestor do you want to be? You know, what are the stories that, you know, whether it’s your grandkids or whatever, and, and I- and I would invite, you know, one of the things that, I want this to be, obviously you and I are having a conversation, but I also want to open it up to, to those of you who are joining us. So if you’ve reflected on that question of what kind of ancestor do I want to be, and you want to share it with Anne and I, please do, and I will make sure that I share that with her. I mean, you can certainly, you could share it on social media, or you can email- email us at podcast at SarahNollWilson dot com, but I would love to, you know, hear and hold space for your journey of reflecting on that. And there’s so much, there’s so- this was, you know, this is one of many conversations, and it was such an important one, and, and I’m so- I’m so grateful for the role that you’ve played in my life to help me see the weeds that aren’t serving me and the people around. And, and you are- So, so for those of you who are listening, you know, you hear us talk a lot about how we want to build a company that works better for humans in a very human first, and there was a real time of transition in 2020, and Anne you played such an important role in me owning the flower I was, right?

Anne Tomkinson
Aw, thank you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
So thank you for that. And the ripple effect was significant, probably more than you’ll ever know, but I’ll continue to try to tell you. So as we- as we wind down, there’s always one question that I invite our guests to think about and reflect, and invite you at home to think about as well. You know, the whole podcast is about conversations we have with ourselves and with other people, so, I’m curious to know, Anne, what- what was a conversation that you’ve had, whether it’s with yourself, or with someone else, or both, that was transformative?

Anne Tomkinson
So, before I answer that, I just want to say, you know, all of the lovely things you said about me, and the relationship that we have an impact, I just want to say likewise. I value your friendship, and the conversations that we have always leave me with something to chew on and something to think about and contemplate. And anytime I think about how to get curious about something, I think of you. So thank you for that. A transformative conversation. I- so I shared this with you actually on Twitter recently, and so this is the most recent one that I- that is coming to mind. I had to have a conversation recently with someone, and I was not looking forward to it, and I had a lot of preconceived ideas about where this conversation was going to go, and what this person was thinking or feeling. And I was-I realized I was feeling incredibly judgmental. And I thought well, this, this isn’t, this isn’t gonna go well. Right? And so I channeled some Sarah and I thought, “How am I- how can I lead with curiosity into this conversation?” And I led with curiosity, and it was such a lovely conversation, and I don’t believe that this person felt judged, because I wasn’t- I was no longer judging. I was no longer judging and I was really curious and open to hear what they had to share. And I, I don’t think that that conversation was necessarily transformative, but the conversation that I had with myself prior to that, my preparation for that conversation, was transformative and, you know, that was, that was the thing in action. Right? That was the stopping beforehand and thinking, how am I- how am I feeling? How am I going to show up in ways that are not aligned to who I am, or to who I want to be? And how can I shift that and show up in the way that I want to be? And how might that change the conversation, and wow, didn’t it? I might have other examples that are-

Sarah Noll Wilson
No that I think that’s a-

Anne Tomkinson
More magical, but that’s the one that I had just recently.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I think that’s so- that’s such a beautiful, that’s such a beautiful example. And that’s a theme- that’s a theme that certainly has, has is coming through in a lot of our conversations with people, is that, that power of the pause, the power of- of preparing and, and preparing doesn’t necessarily go, well I’m going to script it out, and I know what I’m going to say, or whatever. It’s anchoring yourself and how do I want to show up in this moment. Because again, boy do we spend a lot of time on autopilot. I mean there’s, there’s times where I- my husband and I can have a whole conversation. I’m like, I’m sorry, what? What did you I? You know, like, what did you say? So, so I love that- I love that example. And if people want to connect with you, what’s the best way for them to connect with you?

Anne Tomkinson
The best way is probably Twitter. That is where I spend most of my social media time. My handle is AnneTomk, “A, N, N, E, T, O, M, K,” and then I’m also on LinkedIn, you can find me at Anne Tomkinson. I haven’t figured out- I haven’t made space in my life for Instagram, or Tiktok, or any of the other things going on. So really, if you want me, find me on Twitter, that’s- that’s where I am most likely to be.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you Anne so much. You know, every- I think everyone needs an Anne in their life. Somebody that they can go to and say, “That didn’t go how I wanted, or I’m not sure how to navigate this, or here’s what I’m struggling with.” And to have that person who’s, who’s willing to, to see the discomfort and to push you despite of it. So Anne, thank you so much for joining us today.

Anne Tomkinson
Thank you, Sarah. Yeah, this was a delight and an honor, honestly. I’m loving every episode that I’ve heard of the podcast so far. So, honored to be part of it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations. I know that I enjoyed, and I hope you did as well, talking to Anne Tomkinson as we explored, you know, difficult conversations around the words that we use, the rules and roles that influence us, the role that a white dominant, white supremacist culture plays, and how ultimately we can start to liberate ourselves to be who we truly were meant to be, and to create an environment where others do the same. I have a list of all the things I’m going to hold on to, but a couple of things that are resonating deeply for me is, you know, first, that- the idea of I’m going to name my mistakes out loud to normalize that. I think that that’s something that I do, but I think that’s something I want to become- I don’t think, I want to become more intentional about. That idea of the difference between comfort versus safety. And, and just again, that idea of what does liberation look like? What does it look like to be our true full self? So, I’m so grateful. And as I mentioned in the conversation, you know, we were referencing this idea of white supremacist, white dominant culture, and we’ll add some resources for those of you who might be unfamiliar, or maybe, maybe you’re uncomfortable hearing that language. We invite you to get curious to learn more about it, and also to get curious about what- why- where does that come from, and what’s that discomfort for you? I again, I just want to thank you for being here. If you’re interested in more information on holding deeper, more meaningful conversations with others, or if you’d simply like to reach out, you can connect with me on SarahNollWilson dot com, and my colleagues. You can also connect with us on social media, you can find me on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook, just search Sarah Noll Wilson. Also you can pick up a copy of my book, “Don’t Feed the Elephants,” wherever books are sold. If you have been joining us for a while, or if this is your first episode, and you like the what we’re doing, and it’s resonating for you, we invite you to support us in a couple of different ways. The first is you can become a Patreon- a patron of the show, and go to Patreon.com backslash Conversations on Conversations, where your financial support not only sustains this podcast, and 100% of the proceeds are used to pay the amazing team and staff, you can also get access to some pretty great benefits like unique swag, and Patreon only content events. If you have questions with us, want to share what resonated, or you just want to send pictures of a flower that represents who you are at your best self that I can share with Anne, please shoot me an email at podcast at SarahNollWilson dot com. You can also follow the podcast on Twitter at Convos on Convos. Please take time to rate, review, and subscribe to the show. This is, you know, listening is a gift, and taking that step further helps us in a variety of ways for us to continue this work, and to expand it. So, and if you loved what we’re doing, we would be honored to have a five star rating. Also, if you’re enjoying the show and you think others might too, help us spread the word. You know, whether you want to tell a friend about it, you want to post about it on social media, if you want to start an AOL chat group exploring it, we invite you to do that. We want these conversations to reach as many people, and as many ears as possible, so helping people find the podcast is another great way to show your support. Finally, I just want to give a heartfelt thank you to our incredible team who makes this podcast possible. To Drew Noll and Nick Wilson for editing and producing the show, Olivia Reinert, who helps with transcribing, and Kaitlyn Summitt-Nelson for all of her marketing support. And just one more final, final thank you to Anne Tomkinson, our guest today, who is an incredible human, who is helping me and so many others show up in more powerful ways. And a final reminder that when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, I do believe that we can change the world. So thank you all, please make sure you get rest and stay rehydrated, and we’ll see you again soon.

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