Episode 007: A Conversation on Trauma Informed Leadership with Erica Reed

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and Erica Reed as they sit down to discuss the ever-increasing importance of trauma-informed leadership.

About our guest

Erica N. Reed, LCSW-C is a Psychotherapist and Workplace Wellness Expert, specializing in helping corporate leaders retain diverse professionals by leading with empathy. Erica is founder and CEO of ENR Training and Consulting, LLC which helps managers become inclusive leaders with higher levels of emotional intelligence, improved communication skills, and the ability to optimize the unique strengths of employees. ENR’s training, coaching, and consulting services are provided through the lens of Trauma Informed Leadership. This perspective considers the unique lived experiences of the workforce and how stress and trauma impact an organization’s culture of belonging and psychological safety. Taking her clinical and training expertise to the classroom, Erica is an Adjunct Professor at Catholic University of America. Erica’s experience as a college professor provides a unique understanding of adult learning styles and she designs training curriculums where everyone in attendance can easily understand and immediately implement the actionable strategies provided. Erica’s trainings are engaging and informative…no fluff…just lots of great information to get and keep your attention and energize you to develop and grow.

Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Welcome to Conversations on Conversations, the show where each week we explore topics to help us have deeper and more meaningful conversations with ourselves and with others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And this week we have a very special guest and a very special topic and a very timely topic. I think it’s always timely. But it’s my honor and privilege to introduce Erica N. Reed, who is a psychotherapist and workplace wellness expert, specializing in helping corporate leaders retain diverse professionals by leading with empathy. Erica is the founder and CEO of ENR Training and Consulting, LLC, which helps managers become inclusive leaders with higher levels of emotional intelligence, improved communication skills, and the ability to optimize the unique strengths of employees. Who wouldn’t want to work for a leader who did that? ENR’s training, coaching and consulting services are provided through the lens of Trauma Informed Leadership. This perspective considers the unique lived experiences of the workforce, and how stress and trauma impact an organization’s culture of belonging and psychological safety. So today, we’re going to be exploring this idea and digging into trauma and what does it mean and look like to be a trauma informed leader. And I just have to share with all of you, I was introduced to Erica, a while back through a mutual colleague, Farah Harris. For those of you who listened to the episode on boundaries, Farah was the one who introduced us. And every time that Erica and I have had a chance to connect and talk, I always leave with a deeper understanding of humans, particularly humans who have experienced hurt. And it’s such a – I’m so grateful that you said yes to joining us. So welcome, Erica.

Erica Reed
Thank you so much. And I’m so thankful that you invited me because, as you’ve mentioned, we have such powerful conversations, and I’m really excited to have this next one with you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I have to, you know, I love sharing with people a little bit behind the scenes and behind the curtains. And, you know, we both came into this conversation a little bit, maybe frenetic. And Erica took this beautiful pause to ground herself. And I just have to say, she’s, I was – we need more of that. She said, if I had a prescription pad, I would be prescribing pauses. So if that – that might be the best definition or a good definition, description of you, Erica. What – before we jump into things, what do you want people to know about you as they as they join us on this conversation?

Erica Reed
Well, that’s an interesting question, what do I want people to know about me?

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s dealer’s choice, you can pick. What is, what is important?

Erica Reed
I care, and I care a lot. And I want to see people be happy. And I want to see people receive the tools that they need to be happy in their environment. And I recognize that not everyone has all of those tools in their toolkit right now. And it’s really about being aware of that, accepting it without judgment, and then figuring out how to make it happen. And I am just so thankful and so blessed to be in a space where I’m able to assist people with finding the tools and the right tool, because not every tool fits every situation.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right.

Erica Reed
So that’s something that I’m excited that I get to do each and every day.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. One of the things that I think is so unique about you and your approach, you know, I’ve been in the space of leadership development for a decade and a half now. I’ve taken lots of trainings, certifications, I’ve developed my own trainings and certifications, and you, you are one of the first people I’ve encountered – and I know that it’s not that it’s that you’re the only, but this certainly is, you’re one of the few that I’ve encountered that thinks about leadership through the lens of a trauma informed, like, perspective. And so first I want to paint a picture for the audience of just your professional background and your journey of where did you start to lead you to this point of the work that you do, the training that you’ve undertaken, your – you know, your heart is very clear, and your passion for supporting people, but I want to paint the picture of, what was your journey to get to this point to say, We need to be thinking about trauma through the lens of leadership?

Erica Reed
Sure, so, psychotherapist by degree, and by training, and by experience. So, after graduating with my master’s, I went into the administrative side of Social Work and was a clinic director of an outpatient clinic. So definitely have seen what that side of the world looks like, as far as how organizations are run, the challenges that are inherent in being a leader. And then, in addition to that, always having the people skills front and center, but therapy was my heart. So I transitioned into a full time practice where I provide psychotherapy for individuals, for families systems, and have continued that for over 25 years at this point. I like, like I told you last time –

Sarah Noll Wilson
That number, that number feels great until it feels a little like, woah, has this been this long?

Erica Reed
We just put the plus sign after. We don’t need to keep counting. But it was in the, I would say about the midpoint of this 25 plus year journey as a therapist, that it dawned on me that, you know, my clients were coming in to do their amazing work on themselves of healing of, of exploring, of creating change, because they wanted something different in their life. And they would do the work of the office, and then they would leave the office and, and go to where most of us spend most of our time, which is at work. And then a lot of what they had diligently been working on became undone. And I love – I love the example that someone, one of my clients, has shared with me. It was a woman. And she said it was like she was set in the hairdresser all day getting her hair beautiful and perfect exactly the way she wanted it to, stepped outside in a gust of wind said, woo! And all of their hard work, and money, gone. So really added to my practice understanding that we have to do the work, not just individually, but as an organization, as a workplace culture, because we all are people. We all bring our stuff everywhere we go. And depending upon what’s in your bag will determine how you interact and engage with people, whether it’s at home or at work.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And I – there’s so much, there’s – that’s so provocative, because – and you and I’ve talked about this before, that sometimes we can dismiss or minimize harm that happens at work. But the reality is we are spending most of our time in a place that may or may not be healthy, may or may not be toxic may – right, that has that impact on us. So as we jump into this topic, you know, one of the things that I think is important is for people to have a working definition of when we say trauma, what do we mean? Because I know – I know, in you know, my journey with understanding it, there was a long time where I thought it – you know, trauma only happened when there were some real significant – right, you knew you were off at war, you experienced abuse or assault. And so I am curious to know, how would you define trauma? Or how would you want people to think about what trauma means?

Erica Reed
And I think that a lot of folks kind of had that same mindset and definition of trauma as these huge experiences that only happen when you’re at war, or from childhood. And, you know, I think it’s really one of the most important things that we can do is redefine what trauma is. And trauma is really any event or experience that is perceived to be threatening or harmful, that overwhelms our ability to cope. You know, we are inherently built with natural coping strategies. We just are hardwired with it. But there’s a limit to it. And whenever we’re in situations or with certain people, or there are things that just happen in life, and we are not able to cope, then we experience it as a trauma. And the thing about that definition is, it’s how we are built is how we are wired. It’s about how much reserve we have left and how much coping stuff we have left in our toolkit that determines if we experience a trauma. So our supervisor doesn’t get to say what’s traumatic, our significant other –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Can you just – Can you say those, like just – I want to – I just want to, I want people to hear that again.

Erica Reed
No one can say how you are experiencing something. The supervisor, the manager, the leader, they don’t get to say no, no, no, that was not a big deal. It’s really not as big a deal as you’re making about to be. You know, significant others, and friends, you know, they don’t get to create the definition of trauma. It’s really about how you see it, how you receive it, and how it impacts you both in the short term, as well as in the long term.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s I, there’s a couple things that are coming up for me. The first is, what – Let me write this down real quick. Okay, so I have three different thoughts. Because there’s –

Erica Reed
That sounds like me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
There’s so much, and I’m literally going to write them down. So everyone at home, bear with me a second, because I don’t want to lose them. So the first question I have is, What happens to us physically? What happens to our brain? Because that’s part of trauma, is that it isn’t just that it’s a moment that happens and we get overwhelmed. Which I have to tell you, the first time I ever heard you define trauma – It’s still, I mean, I get, I’m getting goosebumps right now just thinking about it. Because you realize how common it is. And you realize how common it is, maybe not only in your own life. For me, I certainly think about it. But then I think about, man, I bet a lot of people I know and love and interact with have experienced this. And I don’t know that and I don’t see that. So, but we know that it also changes us and it changes our brain and it changes our wiring. So can you speak a little bit to, What’s the impact when we experience a traumatic effect? Or what impact might it have, on how we think, on our physical well being, on our mental well being?

Erica Reed
Yeah, and you said it so perfectly. It changes us in every way. And once again, it changes us in little ways and it changes us in big ways. And sometimes we know it, and sometimes we’re acting out that change unconsciously. But it changes our brain, the wiring. Once again, we are hard wired to be a certain way. And whenever it gets disrupted, or things get introduced that we’re not prepared for, then it changes things. So imagine, you know, we’re five years old, and we’re thrown in a physics class. Okay, well, we haven’t gotten the foundations of one plus one equals two. Well, maybe at five years old we have, but you get my point.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right.

Erica Reed
Where we’re given more than what we are able or ready to receive, because it overwhelms all that we currently have as a coping or, or just even maturity-wise. So it changes our brain as far as how we’re able to process and regulate emotion. It changes our brain as far as perception. You know, now, everything, whether it’s threatening or not, that looks remotely similar to that traumatic experience, we now receive as a trauma, because we’ve coupled it together in our brain where, you know, the same way we learned that that big thing with four legs and black stripes is a zebra, we associate those descriptors with the zebra image. Now, things that appear similar to our past trauma, unknowingly trigger that trauma response. So our brain is wired that way. So we’re not able to regulate emotions, we start perceiving threats where it may not necessarily be a dangerous situation. We physically hold trauma in our body. Rather, it’d be in digestive challenges. You know, research shows that people have a history of trauma have more medical problems, because it’s toxic stress that’s living in our body. I mean, think about it in terms of a stress reaction, when we have danger or when we’re upset or when we’re frightened, or there’s something going on that deregulates us, what happens? You know, our heart starts beating faster, our pupils dilate, we know all the caveman stuff. And what happens is, it prepares us for something dangerous. And then when danger passes, it goes back down and we go back to normal, we go about our day. But when we have a history of trauma, and it lives in our body, then that response wants – It comes quicker, more easily, without the trigger, it stays around longer. So if we’re just looking at wear and tear, that’s wear and tear on your body. So we have more medical problems, more heart, diabetes, hypertension. Your teeth. Let’s just talk about your teeth.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I don’t know. Let’s talk about the teeth. I’ve never heard about the teeth and trauma.

Erica Reed
Just think about it in terms of stress, and like – sometimes people, the word trauma is confusing for them, so we put it on a scale of, stress is on one end, and it goes all the way up to trauma. When we’re stressed, a lot of people tend to grit their teeth. And sometimes you go to the dentist and they say you have TMJ. It’s from all of that gritting of your teeth, and your jaw muscles are tight. People go to the chiropractor, because their neck and their shoulders are up to their ear.

Sarah Noll Wilson
This may or may not have been me earlier today, on a call going, I just need to rub my jaw.

Erica Reed
Yes. So we have all of this stuff that lives in our body. And when people call out sick, when people have a hard time waking up in the morning because they had challenges falling asleep at night, maybe because of the stress, maybe because of the medications that they’re taking to help manage the trauma. When people are sitting in meetings, and they’re having a hard time focusing, because they were just triggered, you just gave them a really important project, and they missed it. And they’re too embarrassed or ashamed to say, I’m sorry, I didn’t catch that. And based upon the leader’s response of supportive or judgment, will determine if that employee is able to do their job to the best of their ability, just simply because they were triggered in that moment and missed some important instructions. So trauma, it rewires us, it lives in us. And it impacts us in ways that we may not even begin to realize.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I think that – that is such an important distinction, because I think there are times, and again, maybe beliefs that I’ve held or hear this from people that we work from – is they think that there’s – it’s always going to be obvious, right? That you know, I’m triggered because of X. And maybe, maybe there are times. I think about my own lived experience, when I, when I had my first full blown panic attack. Right, full blown, I’m dying. This is it. If I – you know, I remember thinking – I was getting a massage. And what happened for me is it took me years before I could even go into a salon. And I basically challenged myself to go through exposure therapy, of working through it. So that, that was an obvious connection. Right? Even though I knew what was happening, I couldn’t slow down the reaction because my body was going, Oh, you feel lightheaded? Oh, what if you have another panic attack? What if, what if? But I think, you know, what’s really provocative for me is to understand that we won’t always see the connection of maybe our emotional irritability, maybe our lack of focus, maybe that fogginess. And, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on, Why is that so important for us to understand? It was always important for us – It’s always been important, I think, for us to understand the role that stress plays on us and understanding trauma, but especially in the time that we’ve been living in for the last two years. You know, when you and I had the conversation on the live stream, you shared a stat that pre-pandemic, 70% of people experienced some kind of traumatic experience. We don’t even know what that looks like now.

Erica Reed
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and so I’d love to hear you expand more on why is it so important, especially for people in positions of power and authority, to understand trauma, the role it might be playing in their team members that they serve. And I think it’s also important for the role that it might be playing in themselves.

Erica Reed
Definitely. And I think one of the first things that leaders can do is come from a place of, I don’t know, instead of assuming everyone is like me. And that’s part of the problem, in that when people only view the world through the lens and lived experiences that they have had personally, they make the assumption that everyone else is okay, or everyone else has the same experiences, or everyone else has the same coping or support systems or, you know, access to resources that they have had. So as a leader who understands that trauma is very prevalent, whether a person’s wearing a sign or a badge that says hey, I’ve experienced trauma, or not.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.

Erica Reed
And most people don’t. Then we, we want to come from a place of, I just don’t know. So let me go ahead and approach this person, this situation, this challenge, from a place of empathy, support, and compassion, and not make an assumption that this person, this employee who didn’t turn something in on time, or who came to work late three times in two weeks, is all of a sudden lazy or unmotivated. You know, managers and leaders say, They started with such great potential and then something happened. Well, yeah, something happened. And understanding that that something that happened is impacting them. So really understanding that. But connecting with employees, as opposed to just seeing them as a job description, see them as a person, and speak to them as if they’re a person. No, I don’t want you to dial – to dive into their business. That’s not okay. You probably will get in trouble.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Erica Reed
But there are appropriate ways to, to express that you care that they are having a challenge, and acknowledging, Hey, given everything that’s going on right now, I can see how this may be a challenging time for a lot of our employees. And if, even if you’re speaking collectively at a meeting, that’s a start. Acknowledging, like there’s a lot going on in the world right now as we speak. And because it’s not happening in someone’s backyard, doesn’t mean it’s not impacting them. So acknowledgement is also a very important tool for a leader to use.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What would you – I’d love to hear more examples of what it might look like to approach a situation – one of the practices or behaviors we think about a lot in our work is ways that we might show up, maybe intentionally, but maybe not, emotionally dismissive. And then what does it look like to look emotionally supportive? So something that I’ve heard, and I’m sure it’s come up in your work, too – What would you say to the person who goes, But I’m not their therapist. So I, you know, I’m not, I’m not their therapist. So if a leader says that to you, what would be important for them to be thinking about?

Erica Reed
I would say, Thank you for trying not to be their therapist. But really, you don’t have to be a therapist to care. And you don’t have to be a therapist to reach out and to support. But you don’t have to be a therapist to understand and come from a place of empathy, because that’s really the core of it. You know, we know about emotional intelligence, we know about empathy. But too many people just take a job that has the role manager or leader, and they don’t build that muscle that they need to be supportive in a workplace environment. So when you have an employee, and this actually, I was just speaking with an organization, about a challenge where an employee – they were having some challenges at home. And all of a sudden, they just broke down crying in the middle of a meeting. And the leaders just looked at each other, and they didn’t know what to do. And no one got up, no one said anything, until she just got up and left out of the room. And then they continue the meeting on as if nothing happened. And I can tell from your reaction, being the compassionate, empathic person that you are –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Like not only was that, right, not only did that impact her, but I imagine everyone else in that room went, Oh, we do not show emotions here. We do not share personal things, right, or whatever the message is. Which, you know, we talk about things like psychological safety, people think, Oh, well, I’m not, I’m not overtly harmful. I’m not overtly abusive. So therefore, I’m creating a safe space. And we know there’s lots of things that we do that are harmful, and we might not realize it because we’re looking at it through our lens. Right. But it’s in those – Yeah, I think of them as like those tender human moments. That’s, that’s when we create the connection and trust. Okay, sorry, continue on, I want to keep hearing the rest of the story.

Erica Reed
No, because that’s exactly it. That’s not being a therapist, because you acknowledge that someone is in pain, you acknowledge that all is not okay. And you, through your acknowledgement and through your compassion, you’re now demonstrating to everyone else in the room, how they can manage themselves, what’s allowed, what’s permitted, and what they can expect from you as a leader. So instead of just ignoring them sitting there in pain, hoping that they get it together, you know, you can, you can pause for a minute and you can say, Hey, everyone, let’s just pause for a second. You know, we’ll come back to that, but right now, so and so, you know, I can see that you’re upset by something. Would you like us to take a timeout right now? We can step outside. And I would like to support you. So you didn’t say, You leave. And we’ll continue.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Clean yourself up, here are some tissues.

Erica Reed
Right. So that is what a leader can do. You know, that is just an example of being a leader through a trauma informed lens, and not trying to step into the role of a therapist. And understanding as a leader, to your point that you made earlier, you have your own bags, too. So we have this thing in the world of therapy called countertransference, where we may be working with someone, and there’s just something about them that triggers our own stuff, or they remind us of someone or they remind us of our own experience, and then, woo-hoo, we’re in that space all over again. So as leaders, you know, you carry your own baggage. So there may be some times that you’re triggered. There may be some experiences that you may actually, quote unquote, overreact or respond in a way that the situation doesn’t necessarily call for, just because there was something that you are carrying that got announced, because of the experience that is in the moment.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s one of the biggest – I mean, well, there’s so many, when we think about corporate culture, and everything that has shaped it. Is this idea that emotions don’t belong there. You know? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard people say, Well, people just need to leave it at the door. Or, you know, this might be my sassy side coming out, but whenever someone goes, I’m not an emotional person, Sarah. And I just, I just – I get lovingly, not really curious, but a little sassy. And I go, Oh, so which ones don’t you experience? Do you not experience anger? Oh, no. Okay, you experience anger. So like, when you say you’re not emotional, which ones – you don’t? And I think that, my sense is that part of that desire to want to have emotions removed from the workplace is because it would be way easier, less complicated. But the reality is, is those emotions are there, those – that human is there, that human isn’t a machine. And as a leader, I would rather understand the complexity of the person I’m with, than to pretend – because that, that trauma’s in the room. That stress response is in the room, those emotions are in the room, and you ignoring them, or pretending or wishing them away, doesn’t remove them. They’re there, you’re just not seeing them. I want to go back to that story. Because part of my intention with starting this is to talk about specific strategies, so that when people go, Oh – I’m guessing there are people who are listening who are thinking to themselves, I might have done the same thing. I might have just sat there, or maybe slowly slid the tissue box over. And so that idea of, even just as a group, saying, Hey, we’re just going to take a pause, and then checking in with the person. And that doesn’t mean that I’m – I might not be, I might still be uncomfortable. So I’m curious to get your thoughts on a question that I was asked once. And I was working with a banking group. And this gentleman raised his hand and he said, I really, I really want to be a more empathetic person and leader, I just don’t know what to do when somebody starts crying. And, and so we talked about that. And, you know, for me, I – one of the things that was transformative for me in navigating tears – one is realizing that they’re normal, they’re natural, they’re biological, right? But also, they’re there because something’s important. And instead of working to clean them up for maybe, you know, we want them to feel better. But really, we might just want ourselves to feel better in that moment. Let’s be real. I’m passing the tissues, not for you, for me.

Erica Reed
Right, right.

Sarah Noll Wilson
So what would you say to the people who may be thinking that, of, I don’t know what to do when somebody cries?

Erica Reed
You know, I think it’s totally okay to say, I don’t know what to do. Part of the challenge is, based on personality types, I don’t want to paint a broad picture here. But a lot of people are fixers, and they see something, they want to fix it, and if they can’t, they’re uncomfortable. And if they don’t have the right answer, they don’t have the right strategy, they are paralyzed, and they do nothing. So sometimes one of the best things you can do is say, I don’t know. And I – you acknowledge, I can see that you’re upset right now. I’m sorry. I don’t know exactly what to say. But if it’s okay with you, I would like to just sit here and support you. And when you’re ready to talk, we can talk. And sometimes acknowledging, number one, the emotion or the perceived, you don’t know what the emotion is, because once again, they don’t have a label on.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.

Erica Reed
But you see there’s some emotion there. So acknowledging that there’s emotion, being transparent about how you don’t know what to say, but then offering them support in a way that they have defined that they need it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love all of that. And I especially want to, I want to pause and just put a little magnifier on the, we don’t walk around with labels, and yet our brain wants to give labels, you know. I see this, Oh, she’s being defensive, when really, I might feel humiliated. Or I might be having a trauma response because of something else that happened. And so that idea of going back to, you know, for us, we’re such firm believers in practices of that idea of being chronically curious, meaning, there’s just always things you don’t know, about the person in front of you, or even about yourself, or about the situation. And even that practice – you know, I’m imagining, as like, a tool for people is, maybe just notice, when do you label? Right? When do you put a label and how someone’s behaving? Or what you think their emotions are? And what does it look like to take a step back and go, I don’t know. I also, you know, that point you made about fixing, especially, you know, especially for people who have been promoted and are in these positions of, right, power and authority. They’ve been promoted. In some, in some cases, because they’ve been able to solve problems, they have technical knowledge, technical know how. And, and they’ve been rewarded for that. And, and I think that that’s, that’s one of the biggest – that can be a difficult stretch for people, is to realize that that’s not yours to fix. But that doesn’t mean you can’t witness and you can’t sit with them. And so I’m curious to just hear, you know, what else might you want a leader who sits there and go, but I want to, I want to help them, I want to, I want to remove their – I want to, I just want to fix it, Erica. I just want to fix it.

Erica Reed
So, it goes back to you not being a therapist. Right? So that’s, once again, the staying in the lane piece. You know, as a leader, your role is not to fix someone’s emotion, your role is not to fix someone’s challenges, your role is to support them where they are, and communicate what you can do for them moving forward. And if that looks like, okay, well, if you feel like it would be helpful to, you know, take extended lunch, or if you want to take the rest of the day off, you know, that’s where you can support them. And sometimes, if we can change that compartmentalization that we’re wonderful at, and we put the problems in the fixing category, and the support in the people category, that may change up because, you know, we feel like you need to be doing something. And if we change the goal, if we change the mindset, then that means you’re doing something, and you just put it in the right category.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I have never heard that described like that. But what a powerful framework of, fixing’s over here. The support, though, is separate. And, you know, and one of the things that I’ve experienced is – either experienced when I’m in a moment of high stress, maybe because of my experience with anxiety and panic disorder, is sometimes people might ask me, Hey, what do you need? And I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with that question. Right? Some people might know what they need, or maybe they’ve done some work with a therapist. I’ve gotten better personally, right, through my own therapy work of being able to know in the moment, here’s something I need right now. But one of the things that I think we we should – I’m curious to get your thoughts – like, not to stop there, and especially as a manager, to think about if I’m struggling as a team member, I might feel embarrassed because I had that reaction in front of you. I might be worried about how you might view me for maybe future opportunities like future promotions. I might not know what I can ask for. I might not know what is available to me. And so to think about offering, would this be helpful? Would it, you know, just like you said, would it be helpful to take a longer lunch? Would it be helpful to leave earlier today? Or, you know, your example of the meeting story, of you know, would you like, should we take a break right now? And you know, do you need a moment? And so I’m curious, you know, what are some examples that you’ve observed, or things that maybe are common that leaders can think about offering? Because sometimes in the moment, when our brain is stressed and triggered, we can’t we just physically can’t even think of possibilities. And now you add the power dynamic? I don’t know that I can ask for it. And also then the layer of, and I don’t want this to harm my standing in this company or my career, so I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.

Erica Reed
Well, I think those are valid concerns. Because so many people will not respond with what are you, you know, to the question or the prompt, What do you need? for those very reasons. So one of the things that might be helpful for the leader to do is just speak to the person’s strength, so that they are seen as a person, you know. I value you as an important part of our team. It looks like right now, there may be some things that are weighing heavily on you. I truly encourage you and support you in managing that. If you know what you need right now, please let me know. If not, I would love to pick up and have a conversation with you tomorrow or the next day to see if anything has come to mind. And, you know, I think that this is a multiple conversation kind of thing.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right, right. Right. Right.

Erica Reed
So what that might look like in follow up conversations is, let’s talk about, you know, what you have on your plate right now. Is there anything here that feels heavy or overwhelming, that you would like some additional support. So I’m acknowledging that this stressful, this trauma that you’re having that I’m not going to, you know, try to delve into and fix for you, I’m acknowledging this impacting you. And I could see it just superficially as tears, but I’m assuming it’s impacting other areas. So that may impact your productivity or your work or ability to meet deadlines, your ability to collaborate with your colleagues. I mean, these are all the things. You see the tears, yes, there’s water flowing down the face. But there are other things that are going to be impacted as well that as a leader, you can take the initiative and say, Hey, let’s talk about how these other things are perhaps contributing to whatever it was, the emotion was that you just demonstrated, and I want to support you, let’s talk about it. Now, does that mean that this person never has to work again? No, that’s not the extreme. But if a person feels supported, then they actually may actually be able to work more, or work in a healthier place, because they do feel supported.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I could talk to you all day. Speaking to their strengths. What a powerful practice, and what I was thinking about is, and I can’t do that, whether as a leader or a spouse, or a sibling, or a friend, if I’m too busy judging them, if I’m too busy, right, saying, Get it together, you need to get it together. And so, so what a powerful practice, and to realize that we won’t be able to tap into that if we aren’t willing to see it. And so to see and speak to that strength, and, and you know, and you spoke to and, and maybe in this moment, they’re not as productive as, right, we need because that’s the thing that always comes up is, Yeah, but. Yeah, but. Yeah, but, you know, but we’ve got a business to run. Yeah, but we have this and yeah, but we have this and it’s like, well, yeah, but do you want to leave some bodies in your way? Like, is that – Is that what we’re trying to do here? And so one of the things that I’d love to have you frame out, you’ve started to talk a little bit about what the impact is, when somebody is supported that they might actually show up stronger for you. I can speak from my own personal experience. When I was going through my panic disorder, and, you know, I spent a fair amount of time just staring at the screen and crying and figuring out what the hell was wrong with me and why can’t I get through the day and leaving frantically to call Nick, and, right? I mean, it was such a traumatic time. But once my leaders started to understand what was going on, the way they supported me, the way they gave me grace, even if they didn’t always know the right words, you better believe that I was even more committed to them, because they showed that they were committed to me as a person and as a human. And so I want to, I think it’s important for us to, understand the consequences, because, you know, I was thinking about this earlier, when you were talking about the fact that people don’t get to decide for you what’s traumatic. And one of the things that was coming, like I was thinking about as you’re talking is, what’s the, what are the impacts, or consequences, or cost, when someone is dismissed in that way? When they are, right, you know, think about it from like a gaslighting perspective or – And so, talk to the flip side. So if I, if you show up in a supportive way, here’s what’s possible, because I think sometimes we don’t always realize or are aware of the harm we might cause. And the harm that happens to them – to the to the other person, you know, but that wasn’t my intention, right? It’s like, oh, that absolves me, right?

Erica Reed
There’s a big difference between intention, intent versus impact. And we have to take ownership of the impact, regardless of what our intention was behind it. And you know, I am a huge proponent of psychological safety in the workplace. But just like trauma, we don’t get to decide what make somebody feel safe. It’s not – I don’t say, here, I put this, this, and this in place, and now you’re safe. You know, that safety comes from how people respond to people. And that safety comes from what I see you do with the other people. So if I am crying in a meeting, and you pause, acknowledge that there’s emotion in the room, and you validate that this is important to me, so I’m going to step out with you and support you. So now, you are giving me a clue as to who you are as a person as well as the other people. But what ends up happening is, leaders can understand a little bit more about their employee just from that moment, because now they’re building a relationship, if there was not one already there. When we have relationships, when we are tuned into each other, and obviously in a professional environment, that’s going to vary from a personal environment. But if you say hello to people, if you connect with them, and have idle conversation, and don’t say, Oh, you’re wasting company time, if you acknowledge that they were out of the office for a week. Hey, how about checking in with them when they come back? Ask them, you know, I noticed that you were out for a week, is everything okay? Is there anything that we can do to support you? You don’t have to say, What was wrong? So these –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Where were you?

Erica Reed
Where were you? You know, these things, they – It’s a foundation that gets established and built over time, where employees can once again start to feel safe. When a person once again has a trauma that they experienced in their life, it routes the feeling of safety away from them. And unfortunately, when we have what’s called complex trauma, which is multiple traumas, that means that safety either never comes back or is so intermittent it’s not something that can be counted on. So if I’m in a workplace environment, and my leader is not demonstrating actions that allow me to feel safe, essentially, I’m being re traumatized all over again, whether that leader intended it or not.

Sarah Noll Wilson
The simple act of saying hello – I cannot tell you how many times I’ve heard from team members, My CEO, he doesn’t even – I sit right next to him. I got married this weekend. He didn’t even ask about it. You know, they walked right past my door, they never say good morning. And so, and something that, you know, we will hear is, you know, the whole like, I don’t have time for that. And so, and you know, or that’s not efficient. Sarah, that’s not efficient. It’s like, well, in the short term, it may not be. Long term, it is, actually.

Erica Reed
Because I’m investing in people.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yes, yes. And it might be a muscle to build for some people. And, boy, that description of it rips, it rips your safety, like rips your safety. What a – Because, again, sometimes I think it’s easy for – it can be easy to minimize what happens in the workplace. But if someone’s safety is ripped, you know, that’s not – and, and – what was I, where, I had a thought. My brain is just, like, it’s not firing as quickly and as strongly as it normally does. Oh, here it was. A common scenario that we encounter, is a team had what we would describe as a toxic boss, right? They were abusive, they were aggressive, they – And they’re no longer there for a reason. New leader is brought in, whether promoted from within or they’re brought in to turn around the team. Right? And, and one of the things that can can be a struggle for these leaders that we see is that people aren’t turning the corner fast enough, they’re not trusting me fast enough. What would you, what would you say? Or what would you want people who are in that situation to, like, what would be just – even if it’s just one thing to reflect on, or think about or perspective to hold, when they know they’re stepping into a situation where that team was experiencing real hurt?

Erica Reed
I think you first have to acknowledge it, like, shift your expectations and acknowledge their pain. Just because you’re the guru that was hired because you’re you’re known to make magic happen. It doesn’t just happen. You actually have to have an expectation that it’s going to take some time. If I cut my finger, just because I put a bandaid on, it doesn’t make it all better, it’s going to take some time, some healing. It may actually get a little bit, you know, not – it may not actually heal up and be all pretty, you may be able to still see the little scar there. And understanding that when people have been in a toxic environment with a toxic boss, that lives with them. So when the new person comes in, they’re actually experiencing the toxic environment. Just because the boss left, doesn’t make the environment all pretty. It’s not smelling all beautiful. It’s still toxic.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Right, the landscape, the container is there.

Erica Reed
Yeah, so coming in, having appropriate expectations, having the right expectations that this is going to take some time, these people are not going to trust me, they’re not going to look at me as their savior to fix all wounds and to make things all better, they are going to look at me like, Okay, so what do you have? How are you different? But acknowledging to them, one on one, in addition to collectively, I, from what I’ve understood, from what I’ve heard, I understand that this may not have been the best place for you, work environment wise. I would like to hear from you. What have been some of the challenges that you’ve observed in this workplace? What are some of the things that you would like to see differently? And how can I best support you while we’re going through this transition? So, Oh, you want to listen to me? I’m still not going to believe, but I may tell you and then wait and see what you do with it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right. Which, as that leader, it’s really important to be impeccable, right, that really intentional then of how you show up and, and one of the things that I’ve certainly observed time and time again when people are in those situations, whether they’re brought in from a leadership perspective or maybe even a team member coming in, is the the the group conversation acknowledgement is important. But what I’ve observed is that one to one conversation – that one to one, like the the healing happens in those individual human to human moments. And I always I bristle a little bit whenever I hear the phrase, Suck it up, buttercup. Yeah, that face. Which, unfortunately, have heard a shockingly number of times, people just need to suck it up, Sarah, they just got to put on their their big girl panties or whatever. And it’s like, Uh huh. So, maybe, maybe the reason that you’re having turnover isn’t because of them, but that you’re not creating a safe environment.

Erica Reed
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I can’t imagine – or, I can imagine, that there’s probably people listening to this who may be aware of their own trauma already. And you’re validating a lot of what they’ve experienced. I also can imagine there are people listening to this just, even like me, when you and I had one of our first – when we did our live stream, I realized, oh, there, those were more traumatic than I realized at the time, just because it wasn’t maybe the big T trauma. And what would you say to the people who are maybe starting to connect some dots and realize, oh, this might be trauma, what I’m experiencing? What would you say to them?

Erica Reed
Oh, be gentle, and compassionate with yourself, as you are starting to see things differently. And practice a lot of self care. Because the challenge is, when we start to see things from a different light, then it’s almost like a tsunami and it starts coming at us and all these things that we have been living with every day, and experiencing just as the norm, we start to experience them differently. And what may have been just brushed off or minimized or rationalized before, we now see it as a cut, and there are cuts to the building on top of each other. So if a person is recognizing this is not okay, then definitely take care of yourself. Find your voice. Because sometimes, when we don’t share our concerns, we actually make our experience worse. So finding out how to share your concerns to express your needs to figure out what changes are needed in the environment, and in your life. The challenge is, change won’t happen overnight, especially in the workplace environment. So as this is coming up at work, you definitely want to look at the other side, you know, the other end of life, you know. What do you have in your environment, in your world, in your life outside of work, that can help serve as somewhat of a buffer of support of love of resources, while you’re dealing with the work stuff, and it’s a hot mess, and it may be blowing up, and it may get all moldy and fungus-y after a while? What do we have outside of work that can help counteract some of it going on. And, you know, I’m Team Therapy. I think everyone needs a therapist. So that’s definitely always gonna be top of mind and my recommendation.

Sarah Noll Wilson
The expressing it and talking out loud, that, for me personally, was quickly identified as one of the most important strategies I had when I was experiencing a panic attack. Because, or in those moments of – Because otherwise, you’re just in your head, and you’re ruminating, and right? And not only does that that harm you, but what I found for myself is, I mean, there might be times where I’ll be sitting right next to my husband, or maybe my co-worker, or whatever, and I’m physically there, but I’m not mentally there.

Erica Reed
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And that’s a cost to me too, and that’s a cost to the people in the room. And, and even if that is finding somebody with whom you can say, I’m struggling right now, and who can just be with you not trying to fix you who can be there for support. But, pro-therapy. I’ll never not have a therapist. They might change because I might have different needs. But I’ll never, I’ll never not have a therapist, and I think for people – You know, that – that’s, I think we’ve come a long way, but we’re still not there, as far as overcoming some of the stigmas related to mental health, talking openly about things like trauma and, and even just recently had somebody who was looking for a therapist for their child, but I could tell that they were struggling, and so I got – I said, Have you thought about for you? Because it can be difficult when you’re the person who’s loving the person with trauma, and you know, how do you support yourself as you’re supporting them? And it was so interesting because they were okay with the child getting it, but they were, Yeah, but do I really need it? Am I really broken? And it’s like, okay, you know, like let’s, let’s just unpack that a little bit, and – yeah.

Erica Reed
We are, we as humans are a part of systems. And whenever one part of a system is impacted, every other part of the system is impacted. And unfortunately, what tends to happen is somebody is scapegoated. Somebody is identified as the problem, and they’re the one that has the issue. So they are the one that needs fixing, it doesn’t matter that every other component of the system has been impacted, either directly or indirectly. So we need to look at things as a systems issue as opposed to an employee issue. And whether it’s, my kid is having all these behavioral problems, I’m assuming the therapy – No, you need family therapy. Or, we are having employees that are leaving right and left, we can’t figure out what’s going on. Well, you have a systems problem within your organization and it needs to be addressed.

Yeah, 1,000%, that. Erica, I would love to give – If you can hang out with me just a couple more minutes, I want to give some space to the work you do. So what does it look like? If I’m a client calling you up, what is it – an organization, a company – How do you work with organizations? What does it look? What would it look like for us to work together with your services?

Well, what it looks like is us just talking about what it is you see currently, and what you would like to see differently. And based upon that we would create a program that’s going to meet your needs. It could be through coaching of the leaders, and that coaching could be group, because it’s a system.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Mm hmm. We’re all very interconnected.

Erica Reed
We’re all very interconnected. Or sometimes, really, there’s individual leaders that are really wanting to build upon their leadership strengths, and it’s been identified, it will be really helpful for them in their role, whether, they’ve been recently promoted. And we understand that just because you’ve got the skill set to do the job doesn’t mean you know how to lead people. So that is really, really an important piece too, with the work that I do is helping new managers become effective people leaders with that trauma informed lens. The group component is definitely vital. Because you have that accountability, you have the system talk. So everyone’s on the same page, right? You can’t have one person say we need to practice empathy, and they’re looking at the other ones are like, What does that mean? What does that look like? So we have a shared language, we have shared practices where people are able to support each other, through the regular meetings that we have, our sessions together, as well as the accountability that’s built in, post our work together. And then the ongoing trainings that can be provided to the organization as a whole, because employees need to understand about how trauma has impacted them directly. They have to understand about mental health and wellness and how to create resiliency and self care practices. And then, obviously, everyone needs emotional intelligence. So we – everything has that core component of emotional intelligence. So those are the ways that I work with organizations right now. I’m really excited, though, because I’m currently in the process of creating a course that leaders can take that’s really tuning in getting down deep into trauma informed leadership, that they’re able to take independently as well.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m excited about that. Sign me up when that’s – make sure I know about it. Erica, I have no doubt that this won’t be our last conversation. And I also have no doubt that there will be people who just because of how you showed up, the work that you do, the way that you were naming it and acknowledging it will feel very seen. Just because of you and what you do. A question – I always feel seen with you. And so I can only, you know, imagine – I’m actually, there’s some people that I’m thinking about going, I think that’s going to be a powerful one for them.

Erica Reed
Okay.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, I mean, I, you know, we were recently – I was speaking to an organization and, you know, we were talking about intention versus impact, and we were talking about self awareness, and what are the things that get in the way, and how we’re so not as self aware as we think we are. And I was sharing some of the information that I’ve learned from you and gathered in other ways of just understanding the role trauma played, and so many people came up to me afterwards to say and mention, thank you for mentioning that. You know, we realize that my spouse has been experiencing trauma, we didn’t realize that’s what was going on. And we’re unpacking that. And so again, for the people who are wondering, Oh, is this for me? Is it? You can ask that question. But I think that’s the wrong question. Because you’re going to be working with humans. And you’re going to have your own experiences. And again, you know, ignoring it doesn’t make it go away. And I, you know, and I think the best leaders – I don’t think you should be in a position of power over people if you don’t really care about your people. And maybe you don’t know how to show that. And maybe you need help in showing that, which is why people need to work with people like you, right, to learn about that. Alright, we are coming up on time, and I want to be thoughtful, but I always am curious to ask this final question of our guest. And you can share as much or as little, whatever you feel inspired to share. But what is a conversation that you’ve had, either with yourself or perhaps with another person, that was transformative?

Erica Reed
Whoo, um, so a conversation with myself, I will, I will say is to give myself permission to stop playing small, to hiding. You know, while I love the work that I do, individually, and in my office, I could always tell I was supposed to do it on a on a larger scale. And there were a lot of narratives that I had going on internally, where my lived experiences had me, to a certain extent, hiding. And I had to have a conversation with myself that when we don’t fully live up to our strengths and our gifts, then we are not doing ourselves a service. And we’re actually keeping other people from receiving what they need as well. So when I gave myself that, I guess, we’ll call it a pep talk, of just being aware of some of the reasons behind my decision. I’ll allow myself to actually say, Okay, well, I’m going to talk to amazing people like Sarah on her show, and have conversations about this scary word called trauma that people told me not to say. You don’t want to talk about trauma, people aren’t going to want to listen to that. They don’t want to – No, that, that’s taboo in the workplace. We don’t talk about that. So when I gave myself permission just to step out to be true to myself, and to a certain extent, even a measure of transparency that’s not necessarily welcome in the therapy world, then it allowed me just to feel like I was doing what I’m supposed to do. So just that shift allowed me to be where I am right now with you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Whatever role I can play in helping you step into that bigger light, I mean, I’m all in for Team Erica and also just helping the workplace work better for humans. So for those of you who are listening, I highly recommend that, if you’re, you know looking for development opportunities, and speaker, connect with Erica. Speaking of that, Erica, what would be the best way people can connect with you if they were inspired and moved, want to reach out to you, want to hire you? What’s the best way to connect with you?

Erica Reed
Well, you can always find me the social media route. Social media, on LinkedIn and Twitter, Erica N Reed, LCSW-C. And then you can also shoot me an email, we can go old school. My email is info at Erica N Reed dot com.

Sarah Noll Wilson
If this isn’t, if this isn’t in your mind, I suspect it is. But if I might, please start working on a book or something for us to be able to continue to glean all this beautiful wisdom, because there’s a whole lot of hurt in this world, and what you’re doing is bringing a whole lot of healing. And I’m so so grateful to know you, Erica, and I’m – I just, we’re in a time where we need a lot more healing than I think we have, and thank you for bringing that gift to all of us.

Erica Reed
Thank you so very much.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you for listening to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations. I know I personally enjoyed – I don’t even know if enjoy it is the right word – savored getting the opportunity to connect with Erica Reed and exploring this very important topic of trauma, and Trauma Informed Leadership. This has been a tough week for me personally, and so getting the opportunity to be with her and learn from her was like this hug. I know something that I’m going to hold on to from our conversation is this idea that she presented of speaking to the person’s strength when you see them struggling. And that’s a muscle that I want to build. If you’re interested in learning how we can work together so that you and your team can hold deeper, more meaningful conversations with yourself and others, you can connect with us on Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. You can also connect with me on social media, and my DMs are always open. We try to be a very accessible, human first team. Also, you can pick up a copy of my book, Don’t Feed the Elephants!, wherever books are sold. If you’re enjoying the show, and want to support us, consider becoming a patron. You can go to Patreon dot com backslash Conversations on Conversations, where not only your support will go to sustain this podcast and the amazing team that creates it, but you can also get access to some pretty great benefits and swag and Patreon only content and events. Another way that you can support us is to rate review and subscribe to the show. Those are all very helpful and meaningful as we continue to grow and sustain this podcast. I want to give a big shout out to our incredible team who makes this podcast possible. To Drew Noll, Nick Wilson for editing and producing the show, to Olivia Reinert who helps with the transcriptions, and to Kaitlyn Summitt-Nelson for her marketing support. A final thanks to our guest, Erica Reed, who brought so much insight and wisdom and healing. And as I leave you today, just a reminder that when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. Thank you all for joining us this week. Please make sure you get rest, and you rehydrate, and be well.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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