Episode 009: A Conversation on Disagreements with Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell as they discuss the importance of disagreement, some of the reasons we avoid openly disagreeing with others, and how we can build trusting relationships that encourage differing perspectives.

About our guest

For almost two decades, Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell has been helping organizations and leaders become more effective and inclusive through her engaging diversity and inclusion professional learning sessions, leadership development programs and equity & cultural proficiency coaching.

Gilmara has worked with HR managers, chief diversity officers, and other leaders to create more inclusive work environments. Gilmara has collaborated with organizations from the private and public sector, in a variety of industries. Gilmara has supported organizations develop strategic plans, create equity driven monitoring tools, create more inclusive cultures, and learn more about equity-driven leadership .

Born in Brazil, Gilmara moved to the United States in 2001. She holds a Bachelor of Multicultural Education from FUMEC University (Brazil) and a MSE in School Counseling from Drake University. Gilmara has a focused her doctoral studies in Organizational Behavior with a focus on trust in the workplace.

Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello, and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations, where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, and this week our very special guest is Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell. A little bit about Gilmara. For almost two decades, Gilmara has been helping organizations and leaders become more effective and inclusive through her engaging diversity and inclusion professional learning sessions, leadership development programs, and equity and cultural proficiency proficiency coaching. She is the Director of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at IMT Insurance, and she also supports our clients as a leadership coach. Gilmara has worked with HR managers, chief diversity officers, and other leaders to create more inclusive work environments. She collaborates with organizations private and public, helping them create strategic plans, create equity driven monitoring tools, create more inclusive cultures, and learn more about equity driven leadership. Now, here’s some fun information. She’s originally born in Brazil, she moved to the United States in 2001. She holds a Bachelor in multicultural education from FUMEC University in Brazil, and an MSc in school- at the School of Counseling at Drake University. And she has a focus in her doctoral studies in organizational behavior, with a focus on trust in the workplace. I’m so, so deeply excited for all of you to meet my dear friend, colleague, my mentor. I mean, there’s so many descriptors for you, Gilmara. And so welcome to the show, my dear.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Thank you. I’m so, so happy to be with you today.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I- I’d love to take a moment to talk a little bit about how our paths crossed, because I think it’s a fun- I think it’s a fun, it’s a- it’s a love story that almost never happened, because of me.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
It is, it is. It is. So, I was going through a divorce. And I was doing some soul searching and thinking what do I want to do with my career, and I started looking online for people who were doing, well, doing work with leaders that had more of an interpersonal focus, and I found you. And so I thought, well, you had just started your company, and I had never heard about you. And I thought, I’m gonna send her an email and see if we can get coffee. And then you answered me after a couple of weeks. I had sent you a message, and it said, “Let’s meet in four months.” And I thought, well, that’s a long time down the road, but that’s fine. So, I was talking at the time with different people, and I was anxious- I was anxious to talk to you because I felt you were the one who were on the same mission I was to make the workplace more- a little more inclusive, healthier, more meaningful to people. And then we finally met and the rest was history.

Sarah Noll Wilson
The rest is history. And to be clear, like I wasn’t entirely- I, you know, she, you know, she had reached out, my first year, everything was a hot mess, I was disorganized trying to figure trying to figure out the business and quite frankly, being a little overwhelmed by the number of enquiries I was getting about people wanting to meet for lunch and have- which is really sweet, and I was saying yes to so many that it became too much. And when we finally met it was like, oh, you’re- no, you’re really incredible. And we, you know, sort of love at first sight. You know, we were talking similar language, we had a lot of similar values. And then we just continued to have conversations and I, you know, because of where I was when I first started, I- and I think this is a good indication and an introduction to Gilmara is I hadn’t brought on anyone else to do work with me yet. And part of that was because I was still figuring things out, but part of it too was there was, you know, when I met Gilmara I was- I told her, we had lunch and I said, “I’ll be honest, you’re so amazing that I’m afraid that I’m, like, not going to be able to live up to what you bring to the table,” and the fact that I could even have that conversation with her, and the fact that we were able to talk about that, and what would a partnership look like, that it wasn’t just “Oh hey, let’s work together,” we spent a lot of time having deeper conversations with each other, and you know, that was a turning moment for me of like, oh, we have to find a, like, we have to find a way for us to work together.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
These conversations have been, they have been super important for me. I knew you when I was- when I was going through my most challenging time, that talking to people who were on the same mission I was, was what was going to make me stronger, and you were one of those people that was brought to me in a very, in a very weird way, and made a huge difference in my journey, figuring out how I wanted to elevate the work I was doing. So I feel really fortunate, our crosses pathed- our paths crossed, because you have made a huge difference for me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
No, likewise, and I’m so excited to dig into this, our conversation today. Before we- before we talk about so, for- so one of the things that we want to spend some time on, is talking about how do we disagree more effectively. Why is it important to be able to create cultures, not even just at work, but in relationships, where we can honor different perspectives, where we can share that. That’s a place we’ll start and then we’ll see where the conversation goes. But Gilmara what, you know, when- whenever we read the formal bios, right, there’s a lot of formality to it. What else would you like the audience to know about you?

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
I would like for the audience to know that I am a mother, that is a role in my life that I love, and I feel like it’s a huge part of who I am. I have two incredible daughters, I enjoy learning from them, and they sure keep me on my toes. You know, with little kids, you just, you’re always being challenged to grow and learn, and I love that about them and what they bring to me. I have an amazing partner who is a person who has made a huge difference in my journey too, is a super outside the box thinker, and always challenges my inclination to be in my safe spot, you know, and I have been really fortunate to walk this life with him. And that I am- I love people. I love people. I think that people make life better, and the problems we are facing today as a human family are complex, or difficult, or puzzling, and we can’t do it alone. So, I think people have become more and more important as we try to figure out solutions for the problems we are facing today.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I mean that, you know, one of the things, for those of you who eventually or maybe already have been in conversations with Gilmara, one of her absolute superpowers is the ability to create, sort of almost, it feels like instantaneous connections with people through her conversation. So, you know, there’s been a number of times where, you know, you’ve been in moments where you’re like, oh, and it was just such an easy conversation, and it was like, you know, because you do that, like that, that’s the role that you play. And I always marvel- I marvel at your ability to, you know, because you’re able to step into a lot of times really uncomfortable conversations in a way that is, is genuinely rooted in curiosity, is genuinely rooted and compassion, but also doesn’t shy away from saying, you know what, I have a different perspective on that, and you do it in a way that’s so incredibly disarming. And so so one of the things that I’m curious about is just to paint the picture of, you know, what, what was the journey that brought you to this place of this work that you’re doing? The- what you’re so passionate about, and also, you know, what shaped you- what shaped you and how you show up when you when- you are in conversation and connection with humans, because it’s- it is really a marvel, to witness and to experience.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Thank you, Sarah. Well, I went to school to be a lawyer, and I was a good student, I thought that that would be a good fit for me. And then when I was finishing my law degree, I decided that that wasn’t what I wanted. And the reason why I decided that was because I wanted to be able to be very spontaneous in how I did my work and interacted with people, and I felt limited by some of the structures that the law profession puts in place. And so I, at the time, I was teaching part time, and I was doing that as something that, you know, a job while I went to college, and I loved it, because kids were so spontaneous, and they were so real. And that is something that’s really important for me. So I went back to school and I got a degree in education, and then I moved here, and my education degree was fully validated, which was the one I was really interested in pursuing. And I started teaching in Des Moines, and I was 25 at the time. And I started becoming really interested in the psychology of learning, and how- what allows for people to learn, and how can we learn at our best? And how do adults learn? Well, and so I went back to school and I got my degree in counseling. And that degree has been so valuable for me in doing my work. Because I feel that mental health and well being is such a huge part of the workplace nowadays, and with the tension and the pressures we have, we cannot treat that as an add on anymore. It’s a key element of a healthy culture in a workplace, and so that has helped me greatly understand people, understand what motivates them, and be able to be a sounding board for them when they are struggling and spinning, when they need a little bit of encouragement, or a really hard push, you know, and I then started becoming interested in counseling. And I spent every Saturday at a library at Heartland Area Education library, it’s an agency that serves educators in Iowa, and they have, they have lots of books, and I always would love to read them, so I spent my Saturday mornings there. And one day they offered me a job. I said, sure. I said, I’m here all the time, I’ll take the job. And I didn’t know what the job was, and it was to coach superintendents and be a leadership coach there. And I was, I was grossly under qualified. But I took the job. So I went from teaching first grade, to coaching you know, leaders in schools. And I decided when I started interacting with them, that they were really curious about my background as an immigrant, as a woman of color, a person who had an accent, and I decided that I wanted to help them understand what our experiences were, and serve families and students like me better. Create systems that really served underrepresented families and students. And so I went to my HR person at the time, and I said to her, I want to focus on diversity, equity, and inclusion. And keep in mind, that was 20 years ago in Iowa, nobody was talking about this. And I said to her, can you create a position for me that does that, because I don’t think I’m your person for this other position. And she said, absolutely, what do you need? And she created this position for me. And so I learned as I did the work, and I have been learning for 20 years, and I had quite a ride there with, you know, helping school leaders create better systems for our families. And then I started doing some consulting, I wanted to do some consulting in other areas, healthcare, financial organizations, IT companies, and then I met you and we started collaborating. And I saw a job posting for IMT to be the Director of DEI, and I loved how they wrote the job, I love their core values. It really aligned with my personal values, I applied for it, and they hired me, and here I am loving each minute of this opportunity and trying to, you know, make an impact to IMT, and at my personal coaching and consulting as well. So, I love my job, I wake up excited. I know that the inclusion issues we have won’t be resolved in my lifetime, but I want to be sure that in the next 20 years, I have- I will make a dent at making the workplace better for people.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I- you know, and no doubt you’ve already made such an impact. One of the, you know, one of the things that you, you know, that you brought into our conversations and into my world is this idea of, we need to be willing to speak up, speak out, have differing opinions. And not that I ever thought that having disagreements wasn’t important, I knew that it was, but there was something about how you always, you know, you always label this whenever you’re working with a group and invite this and encourage it, but then you always role model it. So- and you know, and obviously I’m really passionate about helping people who might avoid stepping into those conversations, who might get nervous, or not know what to do. Why, why is it important, Gilmara, for us to be able to build up that muscle, to be- to be able to say, you know, I disagree with that, or to receive when somebody disagrees with us?

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
You know, that’s a great question. I came from a culture where we are very indirect communicators, and disagreements weren’t part of my upbringing. And then I landed in the Midwest where it isn’t either, right? People are very polite and nice, and they equate disagreeing with unkindness. And so they have this stigma around disagreeing that I noticed right away when I arrived, and what I have learned, Sarah, is that when we love somebody, and love the project we’re working on, we have to be brave enough to show up in a real way out of love for that individual, for that project, for that decision we are making. And when we just pretend we are green, and don’t show up in a real way, we are robbing that person an opportunity to grow, to be challenged in a productive way, and to land at the best decision for the organization. And so, what I did to start learning how to love disagreeing productively, was I stopped seeing disagreeing as being unkind, and I started seeing disagreements as a springboard for new ideas, for growth opportunities. And that’s how I look at disagreeing, and I think you can, to me, disagreement and productive conflict are tools to build trust with people. Because when I show up in a real way, and I speak my truth, people know they can count on me to be sincere, to be honest, and that adds to the work we’re doing, and it brings us closer when it’s well done. And so that’s what I have found, that those moments are moments where we can capitalize on that getting closer and building trust, and being very kind as we share a different perspective, a different opinion, or a different idea. And to me, diversity is difference, and difference of perspective and thought is hugely neglected, as seen as a diversity component, and it’s one that people often struggle with.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. There’s, there’s, there’s a number of things I want to highlight, and I so appreciate- this is why I love you- I so appreciate how you set that up from the standpoint of, when when you love someone, when you love something, then one of the ways to honor it, is to be real. And, you know, and you shared that in not doing that it robs the organization, it robs the other person. And I- and it also can rob yourself of speaking, speaking up, offering your perspective, maybe asking for what you need in a way, and that, you know, and that’s something that we can see. Especially, you know, I mean, I speak from a Midwest perspective, because that’s where I’m born and raised. And that’s, you know, while we work with clients all over, we still work with a lot of clients, is that, that- in that moment of not speaking up, resentment can come in, bitterness can come in, and now this relationship that’s important to you is is starting to erode, and we don’t even realize that the reason it’s starting to erode, or have an incision, is because we weren’t being real with them. You know, and your, your language of thinking about it as a springboard for new ideas, I mean, what a beautiful reframe, to say, okay, like, I’m going to say this so that we can potentially create something even better. What, you know, what’s your sense from the work that you do of- what do I want to ask- I have so many questions that are coming, coming up for me, so I’m trying to, like, funnel one. When you- when you are working with people, how do you start to role model, or help them start to step into that space of being more real, of being more, because, okay, yeah, here’s the point. That moment of trust when somebody says, and this, again, is something I really appreciate about you is, I know that you will always tell me, “You know what, Sarah, I actually I have a different perspective on that.” Or “I disagreed with some of the things that you were talking about there.” And I always appreciate it. And I find myself now, because of our relationship, and paying closer attention to that, when I don’t have that in a working relationship, I start to actually distrust the working relationship, because I wonder, well, what are- there’s no way we can agree on everything. There’s no way that everything you’re okay with everything. So what might you be holding back? So how, how do you start when you’re working with a group or an individual to help them start thinking differently about that?

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
So, that’s a great question. First thing I do is I model that in the way I interact with people. So I feel that a lot of times we, we believe our ideas become our identity. And when we are challenging ideas, we feel a personal attack. And when you become skilled at disagreeing and having productive conflict, which is my goal for every team I work with, because I think that’s a, that’s an element of a high functioning team, we’re able to do that in a way that affirms the person, validates our relationship with them, but pushes back on the idea. So this is not an attack on your identity, this is an attempt to land at the right idea. And we see our belief system and our ideas as true and as, as the monitor for how things should be done, and in reality, they’re just what we have been used to believe, but it’s not true or better, there is no value that we can place on our belief system, on ideas. And so the way I model disagreeing is, I first start by saying, I really care about our relationship, you matter to me, and the way you see things, it matters to me. However, right at this moment, I’m not with you. I have a completely different perspective and take on this topic we’re discussing, and I’d like to offer that. Are you open to listening? And so the first thing I do is validate the relationship and how important that human being is for me, and then I go full force in sharing how I am seeing things differently because I do believe that when we can, when we- in my measure- my measurement for how successful I was in having conflict or disagreement is, did I leave this room closer to that individual than I came in? If I did leave the room feeling a stronger connection, I know I did that well. But I have found in my life, that the times that I have disagreed the most, and the people who I can disagree the most with, that creative tension leads to growth, leads to better outcomes in decision making, leads to innovation, and it leads to trust. And so, you know, the benefits of becoming skilled at disagreeing with respect are great.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What a powerful question. You know, I’m always listening for where the- where the little moments of practice or tools, you know, to reinforce, and even just thinking about when reflecting from a conversation, did we leave closer, or didn’t we? And, and again, to get curious about it, and that’s, that’s part of evolving, it’s part of, you know, building our self awareness. And I think that’s, that’s such a powerful question, especially if your realization is oh, no, we actually left further away, and now what, like, am I okay with that, or what am I going to do to bring that together? You know, you spoke about, you spoke about the trap of essentially confusing disagreeing with being unkind. You spoke of another trap of confusing our ideas with our identity, and that’s something that I definitely have observed and witnessed. I know some organizations will say the minute you share an idea, it’s no longer yours. It’s just, it’s on the table as an, as an idea. And I think that when we, when we don’t have cultures of, of having real conversations, that’s part of what can make it feel so personal, because it’s almost like we- because we aren’t used to it, it feels sharper, potentially, than it actually may be in the moment. What are- what are other, perhaps, if there are like- what are other things you’ve observed or witnessed that maybe holds people back from engaging in more real talk of saying, hey, you know what, I have a different perspective. Yeah, I’m just curious to tease that out a little bit more, if there’s anything else you would add to that?

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Yeah. I think that one of the things I have observed quite often is that we go into work meetings thinking and believing that the goal is to agree. And so group thinking kicks in, social conformity kicks in, and we are not doing our best thinking. We’re walking on eggshells, we are having superficial conversations, and we are not feeling real, which is miserable. It’s a miserable way of living your work life. And when we come with the goal of listen differently, of listening for what surprises you what startles you, then you embrace things completely different, and, and honestly Sarah, in my journey to elevate the conversations I have with my colleagues, I have had like, I have found three, three resources that have been very life altering for me. One is conversational intelligence, which you also love and use. I have- after I read that book, I look at every conversation I have each day with a different lens, and I elevate the importance that they have, because I know at the end of the day, our brains might be different. Our neuro pathways are going to be different based on how that exchange happened. And so I want- and time is our most precious resource, it never comes back. This hour we spend together today will never return to us. Money you spend, and you make more, but time is not possible to get back. And so I want to use every minute I have with people in a meaningful way. I don’t want them to be walking on eggshells, I don’t want to be walking on eggshells, I want for us to be going deep and changing as a result of our interactions. And then the other resource that has had a profound effect on my career and my life is Margaret Wheatley. I love her. When, when September 11th happened, she published a book in 2002, called “Turning One to One Another.” And that book made a huge difference in how I saw my conversations in my interactions with others. But she just talks about how our life today has become really weird, really strange, really puzzling. The problems we have are complex, and we need each other more than ever, but we forgot how to talk. We always have all these structures, all these structures around our conversations that we don’t need. All we need is two people and an intention to make something magical happen. That’s all we need. But we find these apps, and this minute taking, and all of this artificial structures that limits, in my opinion, how natural the exchange is. And then the other one that I really find has made an impact on me, you know, as I think about disagreement and conversations, is Julia Gallup’s work, she does a lot of work about rational decision making, and bias in thinking, cognitive bias. And with her, I’ve learned how to look at disagreement not as an identity attack, but really an idea improvement. And so- and having that Scout mindset and thinking, you know, what else could be happening here, not coming- and come in with the intention to say, I was off, you were right. Being proud of saying “I was totally wrong.” You know, I don’t see that happening a lot that people say, I totally think your idea’s better than mine, you know? We should do what we’re- No, I was totally off.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Right. But we’re real, we’re real, we’re real eager to think and to say, whether we say it out loud or not. “See, I told you so.” And boy does that feel so good. And what- and what a powerful, you know, like, those- I think that’s an it’s an interesting thing to think about. How often do you observe, how often do you witness at work, in your home life, in your own, how you show up, do you see the phrase, you know what, you’re right. Or I hadn’t thought about that. Or my thinking has changed on this. Or yeah, I was wrong on that. Or insert whatever. And that, I mean, that’s such a core of intellectual humility. And then, right. I mean, it’s just that willingness to- you know, people who have been following, right, our work for a long time know that curiosity is such an important anchor, because curiosity isn’t just asking questions, it’s this, it’s this, it’s this understanding that there’s always things we don’t know. There’s things we don’t know about ourselves, there’s things that we don’t know yet about other people or a situation, and, and how beautiful- I love moments, and I don’t always feel, it’s not always comfortable, but I love moments when someone really changes my mind on something. And it’s like, oh, I hadn’t thought about that. But to me, it’s a gift, because now I see differently. Now I can think differently. And it, and again, it’s not always it’s not always comfortable. I want to go back to- okay, so, first, for those of you who were maybe frantically writing down all of those great books, we will put those in the show notes as a resource so that you can check those out, with links of where to purchase, but I want to go- I don’t know that I’ve ever heard you say this, and I circled it, I squared it, and I put a couple of stars by it, that idea that how often, especially at work, we think the goal is agreement. And that made me think of, one, or like the constructs, the container we’re trying to keep the conversation is, needs to be so rigid that then the conversations become transactional, when a lot of times, conversations need to be transformational, we need to be sharing and discovering. And, and I just- I want to explore that a bit because I think that’s a really, really important place of reflection for people to go, how often are we coming into this saying we need to agree. Now obviously, we need to get clarity so we can move forward, we can’t just be spinning our wheels constantly. One of the things that we see in our work, and we frame it through the lens of, there’s technical problems, and then there’s adaptive challenges, right? Those technical problems are those things that have an obvious single solution, you know, that we can fix and solve with our current expertise, our current authority. But then we have adaptive challenges that are messy and complex, where the problem may not even be clear, there might be multiple problems that are contributing to it. And then that means there’s not a one size fits all solution. You know, when you think about work like inclusion, diversity, equity and inclusion, that’s not a technical fix that we go, hey, let’s just all agree on how we’re going to become more inclusive, and then we’re done. So, I’m curious to just hear more about your experience of what you observe or see, or where that comes from, that sort of desire to let’s get to agreement quickly, so that we can move on.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
So when I, when I start working with a team, the first thing I watch for is how many people are saying, I think about this differently, or challenging the ideas, bringing in their own perspective, is their group thinking taking place? How comfortable are people saying I was wrong, you were right, and proud of being wrong and changing their mind about something? Is their pride involved in growing, or the work is to defend my own idea, because that is my identity, and I need to affirm myself because I don’t feel safe. You know, and questions, I think in groups, they’re high functioning, in teams they’re really high functioning, you hear more questions and problems. Then, hear more questions, good questions and solutions. There- there are people who are in this journey, asking good questions, and sometimes saying, I don’t know the answer to this. Because we are trained to be certain and confident. We are not trained to say I don’t know the solution for this, but we together can figure this out. We don’t feel comfortable saying that, because we think our credibility is going to be questioned. And I think in reality, when you are very upfront about what you don’t know, and you’re opening the door to exploring that in a curious way, you land in much better places, and decisions, you know? And so I- these are the three things I always observe for. Its- is it disagreement? Are there any disagreements? Or are questions being asked? And are people saying “I don’t know?” And are they curious? And are our people comfortable saying I was wrong and giving somebody else a chance? But the goal, in my opinion, is never to agree, the goal is to commit to something, even if you disagree, but you understand the angle that the team is taking and where they’re coming from. So, sometimes I enter into a conversation knowing that my perspective on something is completely different from somebody else’s, and that I will never agree with them. However, my goal is to increase the respect we have for each other, even when we disagree, and bring that person in. We- nowadays we tend to remove everybody who thinks differently from our circle, our inner circle, because we feel we can’t respect people who bring a difference in thought. And I think that’s a mistake, because we need people in our inner circle who see things completely different from us, who have a different filter for how they capture information and inputs, and I think we are horrible at embracing people who are- who see things from a different perspective than us, you know, and when we understand that we don’t have to agree with the person to respect them or to be close to them, life becomes a lot easier.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Mm hmm. What would you, you know, what would you say to situations where there, perhaps there’s- because I can appreciate- I can imagine there might be some people listening to this going, yeah, but there are some things that are just a non-negotiable for me. Right? Whether that’s intolerance or hate or whatever, what, you know, when- in your perspective, and there, I don’t think there’s, there’s a one answer to this. So as I’m, I’m processing this, but like, you know, when are there times when you may need to set boundaries of what that looks like? Or, what’s your perspective on that when maybe it’s, you know, maybe somebody is saying something hateful, let’s say for example.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Yeah, the boundary for me happens when it becomes a personal attack. So, you know, as long as it’s about ideas, anything is, is okay. I think that when we are discussing ideas, and informing people, everything goes in a respectful way. Now, when it becomes disrespectful, and it becomes an attack to somebody’s identity and who they are, and it’s not safe, that’s when I think it becomes unproductive. And so as long as we are not, you know, talking about people in a way that it’s demeaning that it’s disrespectful, I am okay with difference in thought. But I think when it becomes insulting, disrespectful, and about the person, not the idea, then is when I draw the line.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, now that’s beautiful. And, you know, there’s something I want to go back to. I want to go back to that, the example because I know a lot of the people who listen to this are either in leadership positions, or are, you know, whether that’s from a business unit perspective, or from an HR perspective, that that prevalence of teams not asking questions, is pretty sick. That’s, that’s always something that I’m looking for, as well, when I’m, when I’m observing is, it’s not just is everybody taking turns and sharing their ideas, but are we are we clarifying? Are we, you know, to use the conversational intelligence tool, are we double clicking? Are we saying, hey, when you said that, what did you mean by that? Or were- you know, like, what were- what were your thoughts on this? And sometimes sometimes what I observe in some teams and, there can be- what do I want to say, a misdiagnosis that the team is functioning high because there’s not this high conflict, right? Like, but you know, just taking turns sharing ideas, is still not as effective as- I feel like that’s feedback that I’m often giving teams is, I don’t see you ask- like, you don’t ask questions of each other. You don’t clarify, you know, so, you know, let’s- I want to really build that muscle of, how can we how can we ask more questions, not for the sake of asking questions, but really building that curiosity muscle, and not assuming that you know exactly what they meant when they said this. I think that sometimes, sometimes we miss opportunities perhaps to offer a different nuanced perspective, or just opportunities really for deeper, deeper understanding, even down to the language. Hey, you know, Gilmara when you said X, I don’t know- when you said that transparency is really important or to be real is really- let’s use an example from this conversation- what did you mean, when you said “to be real?” What does that look like for you? Because so often, what I’ve experienced in my life and observed is, we, we can be saying the same words, and operating from totally different meanings, operating from totally different definitions. And so that, you know, that idea of where, where, where can you get more curious, where can you clarify, where can you deepen, and then that’s a beautiful entry. And again, I- this is something I, I thank you for because I’m much more intentional now about making sure that if I’m feeling, well, I have a different perspective on that, to just say that, and and sometimes, sometimes getting that clarity helps me understand where are we. Where are the differences in our ideas, so that we can clarify, see where we’re similar or see where we’re different, and then have a conversation about that. So I’m really, really glad that you brought that up, because, you know, it’s- I think when we talk about trust on teams, sometimes we go about thinking about building trust in a superficial way, in a shallow way, instead of, you know, it’s sometimes- it’s these moments of disagreements that actually went down well, right? And that doesn’t mean it will be comfortable always, but when, when it’s respectful, that’s actually what can bring a team closer together, or can bring a relationship closer together.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
I totally agree. And I think sometimes it’s because it’s why people feel miserable at work is because they can’t speak their truth. And they can’t, when you are hanging out with a friend you feel great because you’re not walking on eggshells, you know, you can be who you are, you know, you can put your freak flag up, and it still feel strong sense of love and belonging, but at work, for some reason, people lose that, and then they are counting the seconds to go home because then they can talk like they want, and share their mind, and their opinion is valid. And I think that we need to bring that back to our meetings, you know, the idea of, I’m going to show up bringing my own perspectives and making mistakes. I mean, I, we are all imperfect, we will mess up, the conversation is not gonna be smooth and perfect at all times. And that’s fine as long as we can say, can I have a do over? I’m sorry, I didn’t say that the way I meant to, can I say that again? You know, or I was wrong. You were right, the idea is better than mine. People in my book when they say that, the credibility I have for them grows immensely.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. That that- So if anyone read, has read my book, I talk about the do-over. And I credit you for that, because that, that was a gift that you brought to our work, and to my life, is that idea that sometimes we think, one, that everything has to get wrapped up into this pretty tidy package in a single conversation or that- right, it has to be perfect, or that it has to all be clear. And we’re you know, it’s, it’s kind of the whole expect to expect non closure, right? And, and we’re humans, and we’re imperfect, and there are times we might not say the right thing, or we, you know, or we don’t realize we said the wrong thing. And how powerful it is to simply just ask, Hey, I need to do over. And a do over is not necessarily like, I want to do over so I can like really fight my point even more clearly and make you, you know, you less and me more, but it’s a, it’s an opportunity to repair. And I will tell you Gilmara, that that practice, when I’ve introduced that to the clients that we’ve worked with, or even in personal relationships, there’s always this response of, can I do- I can do that? It’s like, yes, and you- and you should, especially if the relationship is is important to you, what, you know, I’m going to put you on the spot a little bit. But for people who are like, so what can I say if I have a different, you know, if I- if I disagree, and I’m, you know, sitting here going, I want to do this? It makes sense, I’m on board. What, what are some phrases that people might consider that would be non confrontational ways to just offer up perspective?

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
I’d say always just sort of saying “I really respect how you think.” Validating the other person and saying, you know what, I am not with you right now, I’m seeing this completely different, can you give me a chance to share how I’m seeing this? So I, the formula I use is, I always affirm the person and ask permission to share a different perspective, because if you ask for permission, the person is fully emotionally prepared to embrace that in a positive way. Or in a, in a way that is productive. Sometimes it’s not positive, but productive. I, one of the things I have been on a mission to change at the workplace is positive, toxic positivity. You know, when things are hard, and the discussion is heavy, and everybody’s coming in with a heavy heart, you’ve got to embrace that and say, no, this is darn difficult. We are going through a spin today, but we will respect each other as we do that, and we will be super honest if we need a break, if we need a do over for not saying things in a way that we intend, if we’re hurting other people, and so I think that pretending things are not happening, and lightening up the mood, sometimes the mood, sometimes is not helpful. I’ve gotta say this is gonna be a tough conversation. I want to show up emotionally prepared, I want for you to know that if I need a do over if I say something in a way that I don’t mean to say, I will let you know, and you can let me know. And if I need a break, if I get overwhelmed, I will let you know, and you know, setting up those conditions before you have the conversation helps a ton. And the other thing is sharing your intention. So oftentimes when I’m going to have a really difficult conversation, that instance, I’ll say to the person, here is where I’m coming from, and why I’m doing this. I care about you. I care about our relationship. And I care about how we collaborate, and right now I’m feeling you’re hoarding information, so that is making me a little bit less productive, and I’d like to understand what’s going on for you. Am I causing you to feel like you have to hoard this information? How can we improve this collaboration? And so I think that sharing tension upfront, affirming the person and asking for permission to share your perspective when it’s very different, helps a lot. And I’ll- and then I always thank the person after the fact. I would say, hey, this was tough, but you know what, I’m taking this away with me, I learned this from you today, and we didn’t get where we wanted, but the process was beneficial for me, because I feel closer to you than I did. And I understand now where you’re coming from, you know?

Sarah Noll Wilson
That- you know, I was, I was thinking as you were talking, that, that a lovely compliment I’ve received is- I just want to share on my shoulder when I have these conversations. And as you’re talking, I’m like, I just want Gilmara’s all over my shoulder. Just like, “save this,” you know, a Cyrano de Bergerac, like, Sarah, save this moment, because, you know, because, because0 and what I, what I, what I think is so important, is that it’s people can go, well, of course, it’s easy for you, Gilmara. But the reality is, like, you set it up, it wasn’t, that wasn’t the culture you were raised in, that wasn’t how your family maybe communicated. And these are muscles we can build. I mean, I you know, I always jokingly say I’m a reformed avoider and in progress reformed avoider depending on the moment, but that these aren’t, these are muscles that we can build, and these really beautiful practices that you just shared of affirming the person, affirming the relationship. You know, when we talk about affirming the person, it isn’t saying, you know, I appreciate you, but I think your idea’s dumb, like that’s, that’s not what it is. It’s, it’s an- and it’s a, it’s an expansion. It’s, you know, I just want to reiterate how important this relationship is and how much I value. And I don’t, I don’t, I don’t see myself in that. We- I interviewed Dr. Nika White, and that was an example she gave, is that she, sometimes she’ll use the phrase like, I don’t see myself in that example, as a way of like, somebody who’s a woman of color can speak to what they’re talking about. And it’s, it’s this beautiful entry, and so thinking of it as an and I think is a way also that allows us to expand it. And then that asking permission to share, because one of the things that I found is, when you ask somebody “Would you be open to hearing my perspective,” or “I have a different perspective, are you open to it?” Most people aren’t gonna say no. They’re not gonna say no, I don’t want to know. Maybe if it’s a situation where they’re struggling, and you’re like, I have a perspective on how to help. Do you want to hear it? Maybe they go, I’m just not ready for that.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
And if they’re not, you might as well not share. Right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And the other thing that was coming up for me, as you were talking was just- it’s like, how do we get our self efficacy back? How do we build up our agency, right, and encourage other people to build up their agency? You know, when you were sharing the example of, of entering into a difficult conversation that maybe is heavy, just acknowledging that, and and also maybe honoring, hey, and if you need to take a break, or do what you need to do to take care of yourself, like, let us know that. I think that, you know, again, we have these patterns, we have these patterns, especially in the workplace, right? Of that either things can’t get too heavy, they can’t get too hard, they can’t get too close, they can’t get too far, or whatever, you know, whatever it is. And, and so I mean, it’s those moments when things are hard, and we navigate it when we can come out of it and say, yeah, I know that wasn’t easy, but I’m glad we had the conversation, and I’m glad you and I can have that conversation. And, and I’m sorry, one more thought just because you were just saying so much, but that acknowledging after conversation, is a practice I rarely- like, that is a- that is a practice I know I’m personally committed to doing in my own relationships, and helping other people to because it reinforces that we can have these kinds of conversations, you know? Yeah.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Yeah. And you know, sometimes, too, Sarah, I look to see how people describe conversations and opportunities to converse with others. And a lot of times they use like, war terms to talk about conversation. They’ll say, I’m going to fight for this idea. Today I am going to bring an army to defend this idea. And it’s all war related. And the way you’re coming to the conversations, it’s with a war mindset, in a fighting mindset. And that kind of vocabulary doesn’t have- help us elevate the importance and the relevance of our exchanges with each other. And so when we look at every conversation as a gift and an opportunity, and people know they are loved and they’re cared for, you can push back as much as you want, they will encounter you and push back again to you, and it’s gonna- any- really, it’s gonna unleash the potential we have when we come together. But we just, we just look at it through, some lens are not helpful I think sometimes, you know.

Sarah Noll Wilson
No, we- I mean, I, the way I always talk about it, or think about it is don’t prepare for the confrontation, prepare for the conversation, right? Because that’s what happens is like, well, we have to attack it. Well, you just got- I mean, this is why I don’t like the phrase, “We just got to call it out,” because it’s often like the elephant, we just got to call out the elephant in the room, because that’s often said from such an aggressive place instead of a place of exploration. And, and, again, that, I mean, it does take intentionality, but it’s not impossible. And it’s so, it’s so magical, like you said, it unleashes these possibilities because we can get better ideas, and we will build better relationships, and and, and so that’s, I think that’s an interesting thing for people to think about is, what’s the language? Whether you say it out loud or not, even if you think it, what’s the language in your head when you’re entering into conversations that might be- feel hard or uncomfortable or disagreeing?.And what’s the language that people are using in your organization, and how is that perpetuating? It’s, you know, it’s like, I have the belief that if I’m coming into a conversation from a win-lose mindset, I’ve already lost, right? Like, I might win, maybe I win, quote unquote this point, but like, I’ve already lost because I’m not, I’m thinking about this in terms of a competition. I’m thinking about this in terms of a confrontation instead of a moment to collaborate with this amazing human in front of me, and to create something better.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Yes, I totally agree with that.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Gilmara, you- there’s so- there’s so much. Thanks so much. But we’re coming to the end of our time.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
The podcast could be three hours.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, so this is how- So, so I will say, you know, and I share this, there’s- there’s you know, I feel like there’s this this short list, and you’re you’ve always been on that. But, you know, to just- here’s what I would say for people who are listening, we ,we, we do intend to have multiple conversations with people. So Gilma- Gilmara will be back. There might be times where I’m going to have her host. You don’t know that, but I’ll like, I’ll share that with you down the road. But you know, or she may be a guest host interviewing somebody. But if there’s something from this conversation that you’re curious about, or that you’re- maybe has become clear for you, certainly, you know, reach out to us, and that’s something we can explore in a future episode, or we can follow up with you. Gilmara as we wrap up our time, you know, I want to give you a moment to reflect on the conversation. And I love this- I love asking this question and I hope for those of you listening also think about well, how would you answer this. And that is, you know, conversations, we know that conversations change our worlds, right? What is a conversation either that you’ve had with yourself, or with others, that has transformed you? And you can share as much or as little as you might want related to that.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
I have had so many, it’s really hard to pick one. But I think I’m going to share one that I had with myself when I was going through my divorce, which I consider one of the most challenging experiences I have encountered so far. I had a conversation with myself, I was terrified, and I was worried about several different things. And I had a conversation with myself, saying, the way you navigate this change, in this transition in your life, will teach your girls the most important lesson they will ever receive, which is how to navigate challenges with grace and with hope that things are going to turn out well. And I thought to myself, they’re watching you, and this is your chance to teach them this most valuable lesson, that they will have challenges in their lives, we all do. And how do you want them to look at this challenges. And if they look at me, and they see that we are struggling, but we will be okay, they will be okay. And so I kept that in my mind. Throughout the years I was, you know, getting back on my feet and navigating some difficulties, and that has helped me immensely with them, with how they felt about it, and with teaching them that life is tough, we have to be prepared to respond with grace and dignity even when things are pushing you to the limit and making you terrified. So that was one of the conversations that was a turning point for me-

Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you for sharing that.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
-in deciding how I was going to tackle that. Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Gilmara, I have no doubt that people will want to either follow you or connect with you after hearing this, or at least know that they have that as an option. What is the best way people can connect with you?

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
I am really bad at keeping up with social media, as you know. So, feel free to share my email, Sarah, they can always send me a message. I have a LinkedIn account that I am pretty active at, but other than that, I just love talking and exchanging in person, virtually, and on a more personal level than, you know, on social media. So, if they want to reach out to me, email or LinkedIn is the best.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Perfect and we’ll share, we’ll share both of those links in the in the show notes. Gilmara, I love you. And I’m so glad-

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
I love you too.

Sarah Noll Wilson
-you were patient with me all those years ago and didn’t give up, because I was worth the weight. So, I’m so, I’m so glad. And thank you for sharing your absolute, just really powerful wisdom. I know there are some things that even I tucked away, went, oh, this is the first time I’ve heard her talk about this in this way. I think I needed to hear that. So, I have no doubt that people are leaving this conversation a little bit more curious and hopefully a little bit more courageous to be, to be their real self. So, thank you so much for joining us today.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
But thank you for having me and for being such a positive influence in my life. We are so good for each other, and I am so happy for your successes, and how you are making an impact in the lives of the people you serve, and, you know, work with, and I’m proud to be your friend, I’m proud to be your colleague, and I’m humbled I was here with you for this hour.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you my love. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations. I very much enjoy talking to my dear colleague and brilliant, brilliant coach and leader Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell about how do we, how do we bring difference of ideas and perspectives to the table. How do we disagree productively. There- there’s always so much that I learn from these conversations, but I think, I think one thing that I’m really sitting with, is how can I continue to celebrate not just internally, but externally when there’s been a growth moment because somebody changed my perspective. I think that’s something I want to work on, is being really intentional about saying, you know what, I was wrong, or I, yeah, I hadn’t thought about that, and I think there are definitely times when I do that, but sometimes it it stays internal, and I want to be more external about that. Also that idea of just how often we may enter into conversations with a goal to agree. That was particularly powerful and provocative for me. And we want to, we want the conversation to extend beyond the show, so if something resonated, if something sparked a curiosity, maybe you have a challenge or a different perspective, please share them with us, and we may, we may share them on the show, your comments on the show, or we may use it to inform a future episode. You can send that to us at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com, or you can reach out to me through social media. And if you want to support this podcast further, please consider becoming a patron by visiting us on Patreon dot com backslash Conversations on Conversations, where not only your financial support will sustain this podcast, but you’ll also get access to some pretty great benefits, like swag and Patreon-only content and events. And if you haven’t already, please rate, review, and subscribe to the show. You can do so on iTunes, Spotify and other podcast platforms. This helps us with our exposure, and our reach, and continues to sustain this podcast. Also if you are looking for, are interested in how to have more powerful conversations with yourself and others, check us out at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com, or again, my DMs are always open and all social media platforms. It might take me a minute to get back to you, but I try to get back to everyone. Also you can pick up my latest book “Don’t Feed the Elephants,” wherever books are sold. I just want to give a thank you to our incredible team who makes this podcast possible. To Drew Noll and Nick Wilson for the editing and producing of the show, to Olivia Reinert for transcription, and Kaitlyn Summitt-Nelson for marketing support. And a final, final thank you to Gilmara. Gilmara is somebody who has shaped me personally, professionally, she has profoundly changed how I think about leadership, and I’m just so grateful that we were able to spend this time together and all learn from her wisdom. So thank you, Gilmara. And a final reminder that when we can change the conversations that we have with ourselves and others, we really can change the world. So, take care everyone, be well, please make sure that you are resting and rehydrating, and we will see you again soon.

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