Episode 035: A Conversation on Difficult Conversations with Stephanie Chin, Part 1

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Stephanie Chin as they explore some tools and strategies to help navigate difficult conversations..

Resources Mentioned

• Conversation Cheat Sheet (PDF Download)
• Mini Printable Conversation Cheat Sheets (PDF Download)

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Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have better conversations with ourselves and each other. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson and this week it is my honor to introduce our guest, Stephanie Chin. So let me tell you a little bit about Stephanie and then I’ll talk about what we’re going to explore together. Stephanie Chin has spent the past two decades as a nonprofit leader, including working for the United Way Network, both globally and locally, and at SRI International Incorporated. She believes that we all do better when we all do better, and her life’s mission is to help everyone operate near their potential while expanding it by their own definition. She approaches poverty fighting with a race conscious lens and advocates for equitable practices and systems change and has contributed to the United Way Worldwide Equity Framework. Chin’s new venture, Spicy Conversations, will help clients improve inclusive leadership practices, and focus on behavior and systems change that make a difference. She has a Bachelor of Arts from University of California, Berkeley, a JD MBA from Emory University, has a green belt in Lean Six Sigma and coaching training from Co-active Coaching Training Institute and this week, we’ll be talking about how do we have spicier conversations? How do we have conversations that are anchored in caring, and candor and curiosity? And not only will we be talking about conversations, but Steph and I actually roleplay a real scenario that I’m navigating right now so we can work in real time of how do we find the words to have the conversations that might feel hard to have? So enjoy this conversation with Stephanie Chin.

Welcome to the show, Stephanie. It’s been a long time coming and you’re finally here. How are you?

Stephanie Chin
I’m good. And I also hear on the podcast that sometimes I make a guest appearance. So now, it’s nice to be live on the show.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I think I just quoted you in the episode with my niece talking about how conversations, it’s not about a script. It’s about a tone. But we’ll we’ll hold on to that because we’ll get into that, you know, here in a little bit. What, what else would you like people to know about you before we talk about our history together?

Stephanie Chin
Sure. So I think what’s most important to know in this podcast is that I’m going to try to push your boundaries Sarah. Because so often we think leaders are just so great at things that they don’t struggle too. And I really appreciate the fact that you’re authentic about the fact that we all struggle through things, and we need to see more models of it. So I’m going to encourage you to push me a little bit more. I’d rather us struggle a little bit more so that other people can see that it takes work that it’s not simple and easy and so you’ll get to know who I am just in how I interact.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Well, and in addition to what I shared about Stephanie’s background and the work she’s doing, we’ve known each other for a number of years, but now working with her in a more formal capacity as a coach for myself, because even though I’m in the space of helping people with conversations and trying to create safe environments, there are things that, just like Stephanie pointed out, there’s things that I miss, there’s moments that I struggle with. We can be really close to something and not necessarily see a bigger picture of it, and the other thing that I’ve so value about our relationship is, you know, we come from different lived experiences. We always lovingly joke, how we have different tones and styles in how we approach conversations and so I’m really excited for this. I’ll share with everyone I was trying to think of, I don’t remember the year that we met. But I mean, –

Stephanie Chin
2018

Sarah Noll Wilson
Is it? Okay, I was like she’ll know the year.

Stephanie Chin
Well, because I moved to Des Moines in 2018. So it’s easier for me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, so we – I want to share a little bit of the story of my first interaction with you. So I think that people had shared with me like, hey, you need to connect with you know, this new – new – new lady in town, Stephanie and vice versa. And I think you had reached out to me, and one of the things that struck me right away was the the invitation and how you invited me to come out for lunch. And so – because I think this is – I think this is really indicative of how intentional you are in your conversations. How you are constantly assessing where’s somebody at and how do I meet them? And so, Steph had reached out to me and said, “Hey, would love to, you know, grab coffee or lunch.” And I was like, yeah, lunch sounds great! And then you said, do you want to go somewhere – I don’t remember the exact words, – but it was like, do you want to try – like,

Stephanie Chin
Me neither.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Do you want to try a chain restaurant or do you want to try like a small mom and pop shop? And I was like, let’s do that and then we ended up eating at this really great, what was it? Ecuadorian? Or –

Stephanie Chin
Was it Dominican?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Dominican.

Stephanie Chin
Ecuadorian, something like that? Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
This lovely place. And then I learned later that you were very intentional about asking people this. And I would love to, you know, just open it up to you so you can share with folks about why, why that’s a, that was, at least at the time, and probably still is sometimes part of your practice.

Stephanie Chin
Oh, yeah. So first, I love to meet up with people over a meal, I think it’s so much more fun and you get to know folks better when you aren’t just staring face to face, or like there’s something else to do. And then also you learn a little bit about each other. I think the analogy of food is great, which is why the company is named, Spicy Conversations, because sometimes you want to bell pepper, sometimes you want a habanero, right? And someone was like, and so did you want to creamy jalapeno, and there’s so many different options out there. And you can be in a different mood every single day. And also the context sets a different tone. And so whenever I am meeting up with anyone for a meal, I kind of offer three different options is my rule. And this is how nerdy I am, but also how much I love Yelp and looking at different restaurants that I would otherwise never discover if I didn’t take a research oriented approach. But usually I go across multiple continents. So there’s like a European slash Western one, an Asian sort of one, or an African and or a Latin American sort of one and like, not necessarily all of those. But that’s kind of how we split things up to go from things that are more familiar to a broader audience to things that are explorative. And when I was living in Des Moines, it was really fun because all these people were like, I never knew this restaurant was here, I always go to the same ones, which I also love. But I got to try something else. And so when I get to know someone, putting us both in a space of discovery, and of learning something about a menu, and I think in that restaurant, they were less focused on English speaking customers. And so I had a dip a little bit into my Spanish language, competency, which is pretty low, but like good enough to get us through. And so I think it’s a great way to get to know someone and you learn so much more. I love those weird questions that actually tell you a lot more than the typical, like, where are you from? Where do you work sort of questions?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And it also like, it becomes a shared experience. Right? Especially if it’s a place that you know, neither of us have experienced or maybe we’re trying something different. And yeah, I mean, it was that was right away. It was a different kind of engagement, right, or of interaction that it was like, Oh, this is okay, like I you know, I’m, I’m curious and I love this already because yeah, I mean, I was I was one of those people, like, had no idea it was this, you know, small little five table like, it was so intimate and beautiful. And super, super duper yummy. And, yeah, and so, you know, and, and part of, you know, me, and I’ll share this really, you know, honestly, like, Stephanie has become a really important person for me on my journey in multiple ways, right? My journey as a white person, my journey and thinking about conversations, my journey and thinking about inclusion. You know, because there’s things that she’s not afraid to talk about, or to push on. And there’s things that, you know, there’s multiple moments of, oh, shit, I hadn’t thought about that. Right. Like, I hadn’t hadn’t seen that. So I’ve been I’m really excited for us to explore the topics we’re going to today and whatever also comes up and, and so, okay, so spicy conversations. So I mean, you mentioned a little bit about this. And this is, you know, you and I often we talk about, like, sometimes people need the like, vanilla with sprinkles, that’s me, and sometimes they need the chocolate with, you know, like a little bit of kick. And you know, and a lot of times for people who are listening, you know, we’ll have conversations around what’s the Sarah way? And what’s the Stephanie way? And then what’s the in betweens, because there’s not when we talk about conversations, there isn’t one way. There’s not one thing you can say. There’s definitely things you can do consistently and so talk to us a little bit about just your journey to this point. I mean, this is, you know, whatever whatever you want to share of your evolution and being really intentional. With conversations and creating safety and helping other people, not only creates safety, but also in helping people understand where they’re not.

Stephanie Chin
Yeah, thank you, Sarah. And like, I love learning from you, because different perspectives are great for everyone, right? Like, oh, that’s another way to think of something. That’s another way to say it. I always write down drop different ways that Sarah says things. So I would say that the journey overall, the headline of the journey is probably growing up believing and being taught by parents, who includes a lawyer, as a father, that like what you say is more important than how you say, right? Substance is what’s really important, and learning through my journey that no matter what your substance, it’s really hard to hear if you don’t care about how you say it. Or if you don’t take the attention so that it is an interaction point. And so I had a communications coach when I was in business school, who really focused on like, who’s your audience and who’s in the ecosystem, it’s not just about you. And the way that I came to management was probably too early in my career, but I was a nonprofit girl, loved service and helping other people do better. And really, coming from a family that didn’t start out with a lot. Seeing how you could put in a lot of effort and other folks were not as successful, and what different things help other people be successful. So the way that it happened for me, which is just such a point of privilege, is that I was interviewing for a job for a direct service role. And they were like, actually, you’re not qualified for this direct service role. You don’t know how to do this stuff that would be required. But the way that you talk to us, we actually think you’d be a better manager. At the age of 23, I was put in a management position, because, you know, I went to Berkeley, I sounded like that nerdy person probably like, what are the skills that they were really looking for in a manager. And one of the things I talk about that I have a really big problem about in American society is we just take “high performer” quote, unquote, people good at individual tasks, and say, Hey, because you’re really good at those individual tasks, you must be good at managing people who also have to do that task. Which I think all the research has shown zero correlation, not negative, not positive, but it’s not going to predict things. And so whether or not I actually had the skills, and they saw something in me, I learned very early that I had to cultivate management skills in order to lead people who are actually better at doing the work than I was, which was an incredible opportunity that not everyone gets given, and also really hard. And so throughout my journey in nonprofits, I just see these amazing folks who are struggling, both in a management capacity of like, I know how to do it, but I don’t know how to show someone how to do it. And from a junior position, I just need to know what success looks like, it feels very uncertain. And really honing my expertise, which ended up being my job, as I see it is to help everyone else be better at their jobs. And if I’m better at that, then we’re all better at everything. And so that’s what brought me here. And really, when I decided to spend more time on the consulting side and left, my full time job, was really to be able to focus on that that mission, which is very aligned with the SNoWCo, which is we all need help to do better. And we haven’t actually been invested in to have that skill set to have the time to do it. And so how do we help do some more of that, and especially during the pandemic, companies are really feeling it. The ways that they thought they could manage before, were never really effective. And they’re becoming even less effective in a workforce that is realizing that they need to make choices differently, because life is short, the pandemic really was a wake up call for so many of us about what’s important.

Sarah Noll Wilson
There’s, you know, there’s so much that you said that, I mean, a couple of things first, I don’t think I realized that you became a manager at 23. And you’re right, that is very young. And hearing you share that story, you know, one of the one of the values and the practices that you have is this incredible amount of just curiosity of okay, you know, I am I’m because I’m curious about I’ve seen people in those situations or any you know, anyone who’s stepped into leadership where the default can be I’m going to go into command and control instead of how do I learn differently so I can communicate more effectively so that, you know, hearing that, just, I mean, it just, that’s such a strong value and practice of yours. But then you know where you where you ended it from the standpoint of, you know, I’m curious to get your thoughts on this because I feel like you know, one of the ways I look at where we are right now is we’re in sort of, we’re in an age of relationships in a way that we weren’t before, you know, and to your point, which I totally like full heartedly, like wanted to throw up a heart symbol of, it didn’t work and we didn’t, we didn’t necessarily do it great before. But now people are going I, I have choices that I didn’t have before, or I’m willing to make choices that maybe I didn’t feel comfortable making before. And as more companies are going online, and as more companies are doing hybrid, being able to build those relationships is really critical. And you know, exactly to your point, we we tend to promote people who are technically proficient and then we just we say good luck. And we, and we say good luck and we and you know, and we weren’t, I don’t know about anyone else, but I wasn’t born with these skills. I was born with brown hair and brown eyes. You know, there’s certainly there’s things about my personality, right, that some of it is nature, you know, there’s components of it, but learning how to communicate or even just, you know, I always love hearing leaders, people who, well, I’ll say this people who have been in positions of power and authority, so focused on how do I just make other people better. We’re in an age of relationships, and conversations and connection, I think in a way that we always needed, but now is like, a feels like a non negotiable.

Stephanie Chin
So I go back to, I think we’ve always been in ages of relationships, that we did not always acknowledge in the same way, we’re explicitly acknowledging it now. Right? And so like, if we go way back when, you know, the relationships of careers was like family based, right? And so like, you taught your kid how to do what you were going to do, and it became your last name if you were a tailor, right? And that’s a relationship and all of the research is showing, you know, the privilege of relationships is what often puts people at the top – or at the bottom. And I always go back to gallops. Cue 12. Question of like, one of the key points of engagement is do you have a best friend at work? So like, we’ve always had relationships before, but now we’re actually talking about it. And I think that’s what’s feeling really different is that we’re saying the things that we didn’t used to want to say about it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I didn’t know we could. Yeah. Right. Because there’s just such a level of toleration of what of what the workplace can be, or should be or what the rules, the rules are. You know, one of the things that I love about you, and I said this, at the top of the show is that idea of when we you know, when we think about relationships, it does come down to our conversations and our connections. And you know, and one of the things that I love how you say it, because I often will be like, there’s no script, because we you know, so often people will be like, tell me what to say, tell me what to say. And again, certainly there are strategies, you know, but I love your language of it’s a tone. And you know, the timing of this conversation is actually really beautiful, because you don’t what you don’t know is actually this week’s episode that’s going to air before your our episode right now is going to air is I share a whole voice and movement technique that I learned in acting about how to communicate something. How to physically communicate it, so that it isn’t just that what, but it’s also it’s how are we doing it? So you know, we’ll have to, like have a part two like, have you listened to that and then we come back on and we can talk about some of that. But so talk to me, you know, how do you describe that for folks? How would you want people to think about or what questions can they be thinking about related to it’s not, it’s not a script, it’s a tone. Because I think that’s so beautiful. And it’s easy when we can be – we’re moving too fast to forget that, when we’re on autopilot. When we’re you know, you’re talking before we have done, like, we just have this default that people understand or we want them to understand our default. But I’m curious to hear you say more about that.

Stephanie Chin
Sure. So there’s a couple things. But first, I want to say, if you’re looking for a script, let’s start with the script. Right? Like it’s not that you cannot have a script, but that’s not the point. And so the, for anyone who’s spoken in public, you’re like, oh, remember that time when I forgot to say the thing I wanted to say that nobody else knew you were gonna say. So everyone else thought it was fine, but you thought it was not, right? And so don’t tie yourself to there are specific things I want to say or things I want get across. Or, oh I screwed up that conversation so now I’m screwed up it’s done. So much is in the afterwork of a conversation . And so when we talk about tone, really what I emphasize is showing care, right? If you’re in a conversation, it has to be worth your time and the other person’s time and that there has to be a reason why you’re having it. So if it is, I care because it’s our jobs. That’s, that’s okay. If it’s, I care because you’re a person. That’s better. People like to be acknowledged as an individual. And so I recently just did a holiday practice session and the first point out of a five step program is I care about you more than I care about this conversation. And that’s the tone I think you do want a strike whether or not you say that exact script, or you find another way to say it. I think the radical candor language that Kim Scott has brought up with her challenge directly doesn’t fit as well in the nonprofit sector, but the – it’s clarity and caring, is the way that folks who work in nonprofits with me like more, right? I want you to understand what I’m saying and what I mean to say, because I want my intentions to meet the impact that you receive, because I’m trying to actually send you a message that I think is useful to have. And that’s the point of communicating, it is not for me just to say whatever I want, and you can get whatever you want out of it. And so one of the reasons why I’m particularly willing to say things, however people want is, and I jokingly say this, if I offend someone, I want it to be on purpose. I don’t want it to be on accident, I don’t want to just be like, Oh, I just really hurt Sarah’s feelings, but I didn’t mean to. I wanted to be like, actually, I kind of wanted to get on Sarah’s nerves and that’s the reason. Of course, most people will say, don’t even do that and sure you shouldn’t, but some people do it. You have a moment, –

Sarah Noll Wilson
We’re human.

Stephanie Chin
But really, the it’s about the tone of the conversation, right? If you poke, and that’s who you are authentically in that moment the next conversation if you want a good relationship is I’m sorry, I poked at you. That wasn’t how I wanted to show up and that you did not deserve that. But this is what I was feeling in that moment and it came out. And that doesn’t excuse it. This is how I commit to trying to do better. Of course, like there’s the series of the apology. Again, a tone is more important than the script. But there is a script if people want to follow it. Right? I’m sorry, I care about you. I noticed that I did this thing which had this negative impact or could have, and I commit to doing better. And this is what I’m going to try to do. And I’m still gonna screw up sometimes, because we all do that, because we’re really all going to be tested when we’re not doing well. Right. So people can say, you know, in written form, just wait on that email. Right? Don’t say it quite yet. We are not as good at that when we’re talking to someone.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, there’s two things you said one that I want to go deeper, and one that I just want to re – like==, I want to repeat again. Because you know, one of the things that I love about your practice and the language you use, and it’s something that that I’ve been working on is to literally say I care about you. And I care about this relationship and I care about you know, and when we get into my scenario, right, that was part of the the after work was having the conversation of this relationship is really important to us and so we need to have this conversation right now. And I think sometimes we don’t either, know, think, to start from that place. So I want to repeat that what you said because it’s, you know, it was one of the things when you had shared your sort of five step document with me to review was that like, I care about you more than this conversation is, you know, it’s such a powerful place, and it immediately anchors you as an individual because it can be easy. If we’re frustrated with somebody or for struggling, it’s so easy for us to either, you know, make their identity all about this moment, right? You know, or to be blaming them or to realize like – No, this, this relationship matters and getting this clarity matters, and we can do that. I want to go back to – I love the language afterwork because one of the things we see in our world is a lot of times I think one of the traps that we can fall into is we don’t think about the afterwork, or we assume that it’s one conversation, and then it’s done. Or if I say something and I mess up, then it’s just like, I’m just gonna, I’m gonna pretend like that didn’t happen. You know, maybe I’m ruminating on it personally, that you don’t know as the person who I hurt that I’m thinking about it. So when you think about afterwork, what does that look like, for you? And you know, because I think that that is such an important piece of – there are going to be regrettable events, we’re humans. We’re going to be stressed and tired and angry or unintentional or intentional, right, like, those beautiful shadow intentions. And the repairing becomes such an important practice, because it’s just inevitable, right? I think. Yeah, look at Dr. John Gottman is work that’s like, only about 30% of all conflict can actually be resolved. The rest of it’s just going to be navigated. So when you say the word afterwork, what does that what does that mean? What does that look like?

Stephanie Chin
So it means a lot of different things. But I’m a big learner, right? And so, so much of who I am today is after doing some, like I grew up with a temper. I once you know that, like people from the 80s will maybe remember this, but maybe no one else, there were these gel hour glasses that you could turn over. And they like bulbed down. And once I threw it at my sister in her room, and we have this permanent gel on her floor, that was a reflection of the fact that I got upset when I was a little like 10-year-old. Right? I was also the type of 10-year-old to write my first last will and testament because I was dark and didn’t know how to deal with my feelings like that. Right? And so I spent a lot of time being like, well, I lost my temper. That wasn’t good. Well, what was really wrong? Well, really, it had nothing to do with myself, I was really tired. Right, tired explains so much for so many people. Stressed out, like exhausted, right? Like these things generally happen when you’re not paying attention, when you don’t have the energy to pay attention. And I think it’s expecting too much. I talked to an HR professional who was like, I can’t help it when people get hot. And I was like, I’m not asking you to. But after they get hot, there is an opportunity and honestly, a limited window of opportunity with the person engaged to say, I showed up a way I don’t want to show up in the future. That was not fair to you that I showed up that way. That wasn’t fair to me that I showed up. That wasn’t the way I choose to show up. I love “Inside Out” the movie, and how they say anger cares a lot about things being fair. It is not that anger is this unjustifiable reaction. It’s because something is being transgressed, right? Something is being poked or prodded that you really value and it’s not feeling right. That’s why anger shows up. It’s not a bad feeling. It’s bad if you get stuck in it, because there’s no resolution. And so even to go back to someone afterwards, that’s the afterwork, or not even going to them, and doing it with yourself. Well, what got me in that position? So at the age of 10, I gave myself an earlier bedtime. My parents were not bedtime people and I was and I still give myself a bedtime, because I get tired. And when I’m tired, I’m not as nice as I want to be. And you figure out what works for you. That has nothing to do with the other person. It was just – that was not my sister’s fault. That was also not my fault, because I didn’t know at the age of 10 that I just needed more sleep.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, Amy Gallo, she she writes a lot about conflict. And I can’t, I can’t think of the title of her newest book. But that’s one of the things that she suggests is the first place when you when you do something, say something, receives something and you have a really strong emotional reaction is just get really curious about your physiological needs. Like, are you hungry? Are you tired? Are you under stress? And you know, the, you know, like, we have a limited capacity, if you will. There’s a limited bucket and if I’m spending it so much in other places, it can be easy to you know, – and I appreciate your language too. When you talk about what it could look like, that it’s not an excuse, you know, but it is like helping helping yourself and potentially someone else and then like really owning it, I think is really important because sometimes we see that. I mean, at some point in a future episode, I want to do a whole panel discussion and how do we effectively apologize because it’s really easy for us to go – Sorry, well, you know what Steph, I was just having a bad day. You know, and then it ends there and we don’t actually take ownership and that getting curious, you know, so like that getting curious about what is it about the situation? Right? I mean, that’s for us why that taking some time for yourself to go. So what what is it? So I’m not just like throwing daggers at somebody, but I’m understanding – what, like you said, what’s being transgressed? What doesn’t feel fair? What needs aren’t being met? So now we can have a conversation around that. And you know, and it’s, it’s hard. It’s it’s hard sometimes, you know, to, to reflect and to go. Yeah, I need to get curious with myself there. So I appreciate you also talking about aftercare work isn’t just with the other person, it’s also with yourself. And, you know, I think that’s a really good lesson for all of us to think about. I think about, you know, so my anxiety, for example, I know, pillar number one is sleep. I know that if I don’t take care of my sleep, every other pillar drops. And I think it’s interesting to go – what, what impacts me being able to show up as my best self, right, my most thoughtful, slow, maybe whatever that looks like. Caring, connected to the other person, what are the things that get in the way? So I appreciate you, you bringing that up? Because I think we don’t often think about, think about the aftercare enough.

Stephanie Chin
You know, when something is coming up for us, and we feel like we need to have a conversation. Usually, there’s a backstory that the other person has no idea about. So if you’ve ever been in conversation, you’re like, wow, that was a big response for what I just did. It usually because that’s not the whole story. And so, usually, if I witness like a very big reaction, I go, wow, that just felt big. There’s something else behind that. What does that remind you of? Right? And then you hear this long story, like I had two colleagues who one of them reminded the other of their own mother, who they had challenging conversations with, or didn’t have the conversations they should have had. And so every interaction brought up this like negative reaction to their experiences with their mother. And so that’s not anyone’s fault. But like, there’s more there than the surface experience.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and that’s, I mean, it’s a good it’s a good reminder when you’re the one receiving it, and also, when you’re the one who’s in it, like – I mean, it’s funny, you talk about that I had a situation where some – “I don’t know why he frustrates me so much!” And then finally, it’s like, “Ah, he reminds me of my brother and I hate my brother.” And I was like, okay, wait, slow down. We need to – this is great awareness, because this has given us some indication of a lens you’re wearing, right, of how you’re experiencing this. So what we what we thought would be really valuable is instead of just continuing to talk about strategies, which is really helpful, and there’s great language that you’re offering, is that we would actually work through some real conversations that I struggle with. And exactly to that point of, that’s not the whole story. You know, we’ll unpack a little bit of the story behind the story.

Our guest this week has been Stephanie Chin, Chief Spicy Officer of Spicy Conversations. And we’re going to continue our conversation not only are we going to continue our conversation next week, but we will actually be doing a roleplay where both Stephanie and I are going to take turns roleplaying a real scenario real conversation that I often find myself having as I’m navigating the holidays with the family and so not only will you get a chance to take away some key ideas and practices, but you’re gonna hear us both muddle through it a bit and and do the work. So we want to hear from you. You can reach out to us at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson.com. You can always find me on social media where my DMs are always open and we want to hear what resonated for you. How are you thinking differently are doing differently as a result of our time together? And if you’d like to find out more about our work and how we can help you or your team have conversations that matter. Check us out at Sarah Noll Wilson.com. Also, if you haven’t picked up a copy of my latest book, Don’t Feed the Elephants! you can do that wherever books are sold. If you’d like to support the show, please consider becoming a patron you can visit patreon.com/conversations on conversations. We’re not only your financial support, will support the amazing team that makes it happen, you’ll have access to some pretty great benefits like swag and Patreon only content. And if you haven’t already done so please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show. You can do this on Apple Podcast or Spotify or other podcast platforms. This helps us get the word out and continue to bring on amazing guests each week.

I want to give a big thank you to our team that makes this podcast possible to our producer Nick Wilson, sound editor Drew Noll, transcriptionist Becky Reinert, along with the rest of the SNoWCo crew. And finally, a huge thank you to Stephanie Chin for joining us today, as well as on our next conversation. I’ve learned so much from her over the years. And just – I’m so excited to finally bring her on the show. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you so much for listening and remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So please be sure to rest, rehydrate and we’ll see you again next week.