Episode 043: A Conversation on Financial Intimacy with Jacquette M. Timmons

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Jacquette M. Timmons as they discuss the human side of money. Jacquette shares insights she has gained about people’s ever-changing relationships to money, and introduces the concept of financial intimacy.

About Our Guest

Jacquette M. Timmons is on a mission to change how people think, behave, and talk about money. It’s why she focuses on the human side of money. She works as a financial behaviorist and is committed to getting you to see that you don’t manage money – you manage your choices around money.

In addition to being an author (“Financial Intimacy: How to Create a Healthy Relationship with Your Money and Your Mate”) and frequent blogger, Jacquette is also the creator of Pricing Made Human®. PMH is designed to help entrepreneurs and small business owners tackle the question, “What should I charge for this?” from all sides: the financial, the emotional, and the personal, so they can price more confidently, and strategically, and end up with a thriving business and thriving life. She also hosts the podcast “More Than Money.”

When she’s not providing behavioral-based financial coaching for smart, driven, and curious high-earners, she’s traveling the country for speaking engagements on behalf of Fortune 100 companies, AM Law 200 firms, nationally known non-profits and conferences (large & boutique) to talk about the intersection of emotions and money. Her work has been featured on Minnesota Public Radio, SiriusXM, “Good Morning America,” Oprah.com, CNN, HLN, FOX, Black Enterprise, NPR, Reuters.com, and the Wall Street Journal.

Jacquette holds an MBA in finance from Fordham University’s Graduate School of Business and an undergrad in marketing from the Fashion Institute of Technology. A combination she credits, in part, for being able to blend her analytical mind and creative spirit in service to help her clients shift how they look at money, how they perceive its role in their life, and how they give it direction. She lives in Brooklyn, NY, and can be seen running in Prospect Park most days.

Resources Mentioned

• Buy Financial Intimacy: How to Create a Healthy Relationship with Your Money and Your Mate

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• Find Jacquette: Website | Twitter | LinkedIn | Instagram

Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I am your host, Sarah Noll Wilson and I – this is a long overdue conversation. (laughter) And I’m so excited that we were able to make it happen. So let me tell you about this week’s guest, a little bit about her and what we will be exploring. So our guest this week is Jacquette M. Timmons and Jacquette is on a mission to change how people think, behave and talk about money. So we are going to be talking about our relationship with money today. It’s why she focuses on the human side of money. She works as a financial behaviorist and is committed to getting you to see what you don’t – getting you to see that you don’t manage your money, you manage your choices around money, sorry, I needed to catch that. In addition to being an author, she wrote a book Financial Intimacy which I cannot wait to dig into this idea of financial intimacy. It’s not something you often see together. So I love that. How to create a healthy relationship with your money and your mate. She is a frequent blogger. She’s also the creator of Pricing Made Human. PMH is designed to help entrepreneurs and small business owners tackle that question, What should I charge for this? Which I often have had to ask myself and try to answer. And to look at it from all sides, the financial the emotional, the personal, so that they can price more confidently, strategically and ended up with a thriving business and a thriving life. She also hosts the podcast More Than Money. So all of these we will share in the show notes so you can check those out. Just a little bit of background because I mean, we got to speak to the credentials, Jacquette, she holds an MBA in finance from Fordham University Graduate School of Business and an undergrad in marketing from the Fashion Institute of Technology. She lives in Brooklyn, New York and can be seen running in Prospect Park most days of the week. Welcome to the show Jacquette.

Jacquette M Timmons
I am so delighted to be here, Sarah, thank you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What else would you like people to know about you?

Jacquette M Timmons
Oh, my goodness. Um, what else? I love music. I love all kinds of music. But when it comes to dancing, I particularly love house music. (laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay.

Jacquette M Timmons
So one of my –

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love the laugh behind it. Is because people don’t expect it? Is there a little bit like, mmm, you might not know this about me. (laughs)

Jacquette M Timmons
Exactly. And one of my fantasies is to actually go to South Africa to see and hear Black Coffee, the DJ Black Coffee. So that’s something that probably some people wouldn’t know about me. I love to travel and I want to get – now that we are in a different phase of this pandemic, I want to get back to traveling. And I would love to get to a point where I’m going someplace new at least four times a year, and new like, another country. (laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
Love that.

Jacquette M Timmons
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m here for all of that. Now something – for those of you who are listening, and for those of you who may be enjoying this episode via video, can you just feel her smile? I mean, that was one of the things if you remember the first time that we connected, I was still very much healing from COVID and was still dealing and low energy. And I remember it was just like shot of joy. That was exactly the balm I needed in that moment.

Jacquette M Timmons
(laughs) Thank you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I, I’m so excited. Again, as I mentioned, this was a long overdue conversation, because, boy, when we talk about conversations we avoid, and I can’t remember if this was a conversation you and I had or if it was, oh no, actually, we had a previous previous guests, who is a death doula. She’s like, “we don’t talk about sex, we don’t talk about death and we don’t talk about money.” Like those are the three like areas that we aren’t equipped at how to have conversations, again with ourselves and others. So before we jump into specifically the work you do, walk us back, what was the journey? Where did you start? You know, what was the path that brought you to this point of, of doing this work that you do so well of helping people reexamine their relationship with money?

Jacquette M Timmons
Yeah, you know, it’s really interesting because the death doula that you were just referencing, as well as a lot of people often say that we don’t talk about money. And I actually think that the truth is, we talk about money all the time. We’re just not having the right conversations about it. And how that connects to you know, what put me on this journey, if you will, is really watching the stock market crash of 1987 being really green behind the ears. I’m just a year out of undergrad, don’t really know what I’m doing but I’m on Wall Street. (laughs) The stock market crashes, and people are going crazy. And just seeing drastically different reactions to it, how there was this camp of people that literally if they could have, they would have jumped out of a window because of how much money they lost for themselves and for their clients. And then there was this other camp of people that were very calm. So you talk about conversations, I’m sitting there at 20 years old thinking, why are they not talking to one another? Like, why isn’t this person trying to calm down the one that’s all anxious? And what could that calm person perhaps share with the anxious person that would calm them down? And so I didn’t have the language back then to really understand what was going on. But it just really, you know, reminded me in hindsight of the conversations that we are having, but also be, it’s what planted the seed around success with money being about behavior, and not just about the numbers.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I, yeah it’s so interesting. And that was something that, you know, when we were prepping for this, this conversation, I asked you just a few moments ago for people who are wondering. (laughs) So say more about that, because it is and that, you know, boy, that that’s true in as an individual to be like, well, how much money do I have in the bank? Or how much money do I have in savings as a business owner? It’s, you know, how much, what revenue are we driving? How much profit are we gaining? And while that’s certainly important, I am starting to learn and untangle that that is not the only measurement of success. So say, just say more, and tease that out a bit for us.

Jacquette M Timmons
Yeah, so you know, traditional personal finance will have you – and here’s where the nuance and a little bit of the conflict comes into play. Because traditional personal finance would have you thinking that all you need to do is follow the tenants and the tenants are: pay yourself first, save, have minimal to no debt, and invest. And all of those things are absolutely important to practice. But part of the challenge is that the traditional personal finance route, makes it seem as if all you did were those things, and everybody would be successful and it treats money as if it’s monolithic. And it isn’t, because we all have different circumstances and then the context of those circumstances are different. And that’s what we’re bringing to our day to day activity when it comes to money. That’s what we’re bringing to the decisions that we make both large and small. That’s what we’re bringing to the table when we’re thinking about, well, what is the role of our business and helping us to achieve our personal financial goals? And I’m of the belief, and this comes from experience, (laughs) I’m of the belief that actually one of the best business decisions that you can make is to center the health of your personal finances. And the lightbulb moment for me was caused by the fact that I had a year where I did really well, my business did really well. And I’m like, “Well, why am I broke?” (laughs) My business is –

Sarah Noll Wilson
I feel, I feel, I feel seen in a way that makes me very uncomfortable and also I think I need to send you an invoice for how this conversation is gonna play out. (laughter)

Jacquette M Timmons
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
So yes, can continue on for a friend of mine, who maybe has experienced something similar. (laughs)

Jacquette M Timmons
But it was this really ah-ha moment of, wait a second, like there’s something that’s missing here, I am not connecting the dots in the way that I should. And that really led to an examination of my business model, an examination of my sales process, of my pricing. And over time, you know, getting it to a point where I didn’t feel like my business was sucking everything out of me because I also feel like sometimes the narrative out there is you give your business everything. And yeah, we need to definitely give our business a lot but we shouldn’t also give it our financial future. And I think part of the challenge is figuring out again, going back to nuance, how do you figure out that dance between what are the sacrifices that you make for your business in the short term, but how do you not let that be this thing that you are doing in a way that also prompts a sacrifice in the future?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, (pauses) boy I wasn’t expecting this to go here. I’m having some real feelings. (laughter) I’m having some real – there’s so many – gosh, I’m trying to make notes of, I want to talk about the way we’re shamed about money –

Jacquette M Timmons
Oh god, yes.

I want to talk about as a business owner, and, and, and even related to that, of – you know, so I’ll speak from my experience that there is part of, yep, I want to keep investing in my business because I’m making that bet on me, right? I’m making that bet on, and the team now, right, I’m making this bet that if by making this investment, it’s going to pay off even bigger in the long term. And I have recognized in myself that sometimes actually, I’m investing in, I’m investing money back into the business, I’m paying myself less, because I’m actually uncomfortable with what maybe I deserve to get. And so there’s like, there’s layers to that right of, yeah, you should, right, you should give everything you know, back into the business, but I don’t – So, hypothetically, (laughter) if you were helping a client struggling. (laughter)

For my friend over there.

Sarah Noll Wilson
For my friend who may have (unintelligible) No, but but, but you’re – well, and the other thing that’s coming up for me, too, is, you know, where else do we, where else are we told to just constantly be giving, at the sacrificing of our financial future, our financial stability, our you know, like, well being, because – you know, it’s always funny to me, when I hear or read stories about, well, you only need to make this much money to be happy, right? Like after this, it’s not. And I was like, Ah, I don’t know about that. Like, –

Jacquette M Timmons
Especially depending upon where you live.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, where you live, and, and, you know, the kind of like, not even just the lifestyle, but like who you want to take care of, who do you have to support? Who do you want to support? Let’s go back to the business is sucking everything like you should give it you should, you know, what, why is that an unhealthy or unproductive mindset?

Jacquette M Timmons
Well, part of the reason is, even if you have a team, and even if you are not, quote unquote, the face of your business, you are the driver of it, so you are its biggest asset. And if you are constantly putting the business before taking care of yourself, you are going to reach a point where you are depleted, you are depleted financially, you are depleted energetically, creatively, and then what happens? Then the business doesn’t exist. So it might seem like a smart decision in the short term, to give it everything. But then you’re being short sighted, and you’re not thinking about, well, what’s in the reserve in the reservoir for when I need something in the future?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Jacquette M Timmons
And I think the, one of the challenges is that, and this is what makes you know, oftentimes the conversation around pricing really hard is one of the challenges is it can be masked, right? So it can be masked, and that you are, you know, generating revenue, you are profitable. But then if you take a step back and say, okay, but am I paying myself am I paying myself as much as I could, given how well the business is doing? Or for? You know, many of us when we started our businesses, we’ve invested some of our own money, whether it’s savings money, whether it’s you know, we took money out of retirement savings or whatever. Have you begun to replenish, that have you return your your investment to yourself? Or for some folks, you put a pause on long term investing, because you’re like, no, I need that cash flow, to keep my business going or to take it to another level or to get it through a rough patch. And you have gotten in such a rhythm that you haven’t resumed it. So you’ve now, like, Oh my god, you look up and five years later, and you’re like, oh, wow, I never went back. I had all the good intentions of going back and resuming that but it stayed on pause for much longer. I don’t know one person that hasn’t done any variation of those things. And the problem is then that means that you have sabotaged your financial future without even really knowing it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I have lots of feelings that are coming up because of this conversation (laughs) that I wasn’t expecting to have. And and it can be really easy especially as a small business owner. You know, you’re gonna have lean years, you know, you’re gonna have external factors, pandemics, economic downturns, whatever the case might be. And I can, I can imagine, and I know, it’s something that I’ve definitely struggled with is making sure that I’m not always coming from a scarcity mindset. You know, especially when you have experienced a lean time, when you have experience like – this, we weren’t focused on business development, or we, you know, lost sight on this or, and how easy it can be – boy, I – yes, I see it, I see that as a challenge that that that I face as a business owner. I see it in my colleagues, that are like, some day. And I think that, I think what you’re hitting on is, unless you’re intentional about making some day happening, happen. It’s not – it may not happen.

Jacquette M Timmons
It may not.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and you know, and, you know, I I’m reminded of a conversation with a good friend of mine, Rachel Sheerin, she’s a really incredible speaker. And we were we were talking late one night, at a like Mastermind retreat that we were at, and, you know, late night pillow chat. And we were talking about this topic, and Rachel is somebody who has a very different relationship with money, and which I appreciate. And, and she was like, “So what’s like your goal?” And I said, you know, one of my goals is that I want to make enough financially, not only so that Nick and I are taken care of, but I want to make enough that we can take care of my parents, his parents, if they ever need it. And so we make enough that they wouldn’t question us helping and supporting them. And the thing she pushed me on was, like, I hear you making all these investments and how much longer, how much more time will you have to take care of your parents? How much more – you know, it was it was sort of a gut check of, you keep making these investments and I’m not saying they’re wrong, right to hire people and to do all of this. But at some point, you aren’t ever – you won’t be able to achieve the whole reason you – like, it’s not the whole reason, but one of the reasons that you started this.

Jacquette M Timmons
That, I think is – talking about having uncomfortable conversations, that’s just an uncomfortable reality. And I think, you know, the goal of wanting to have enough, I would ask, what’s your number? And you don’t have to share that with us.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Jacquette M Timmons
What’s your number? Because having a very specific number, as opposed to the word “enough”. What can help you shape, well, what are the decisions and the trade offs that you need to make now to get you closer to that number? And there may be a different number that’s the target for what you and Nick need. And there may be a different number that’s the target for your parents and his parents. And literally, if you were to have three buckets and know what that number is, and then, you know, reverse engineer to, well, where are we starting from? Even if that starting point is zero? Like don’t discount the power of okay, I’m starting from zero, it’s okay to start from zero.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.

Jacquette M Timmons
It can give you a sense of reality, checking the timeline that you have, whether it is maybe the number can’t be as high as I want it to be, if I want that number to be hit in 10 years, or maybe if I’m giving it 20 years, I you know, can give myself some assurance that I can hit it. Like you, once you have a number, you can stress test your timeframe for getting from where you are to where you want to be. And that and that specific number is not about certainty, but it is directional. And it’s about giving you clarity, again, for those reasons and those trade offs. So, I would say for all of us to just be really mindful of when we say I just want enough that we go to the next level and actually put a dollar amount on that enough. And it can change but you got to have a starting point

Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m –

The look on you face. (laughs)

I’m a little speechless. You know what, one part and this is what what I love about how you approach your work. And, and, and people listening you can hear it and how she’s explaining things, is that human side of it, and the reality and the challenges, you know, because I’m on Twitter, and I get all of these Twitter bro threads that show up on my feed, even though I don’t follow or, you know, like, and, and, and sometimes there’s a lot of shame, sometimes well, there’s also a whole ton of like ignoring privilege and access to resources and all of that. And so part of my pause is just, I just so appreciate the humanity you bring in with the, the, like the humanity you bring in with the practices, and also the nuances. I would be remiss if I didn’t go back to something you said that bears repeating, which is, you know, defining that number is not about certainty. It’s directional. And boy, did I have a strong reaction of how applicable just that concept is to lots of areas in our life. And, and that reality check. My colleague, my colleague, Dr. Teresa Peterson, and I were just talking recently, in another context, not related to finances, but just this idea of what, how do we take a more balanced mindset, instead of it being like a positive mindset, but a more balanced mindset to situations where we are balancing the optimism, the goal with the reality? And I appreciate that check of you may have that goal, you may have that number, and you may have to reassess how you get there. Or you may have to reassess that, maybe that actually isn’t the number right now. And maybe that’s the and I appreciate that. And, you know, and then what are the sacrifices? You know, what’s the starting point because, you know, when, as a elder millennial (chuckles) I, we’ve been told so much to stop buying the avocado toast, just stop going to Starbucks, stop going to whatever, and not taking into account one, where did you come from? Where did you start? Right, like, we are not all starting from the same place. We are not – our families are not starting from the same place. We know that with inflation, right. We know wages have been stagnant for so long. And again, like, and that has impacted different groups very differently in different industries and sectors very differently. And, you know, and just cost, right, the cost of education is, has gone up so much. The cost of housing has gone up, you know, I mean, I look at the house we’re in, we wouldn’t be able to afford this house anymore. You know, like, and we’ve only been here six or seven years.

Jacquette M Timmons
Yeah, I live in Brooklyn, New York. I live in Park Slope. And everybody’s always like, ooh, Park Slope. And yeah, I love it. And I’ve been here since ’85. I could not move into my neighborhood, at the price of rent or even to buy, versus when I moved in here in 1985. Just couldn’t.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Jacquette M Timmons
And yeah, you’re right. Going back to the nuance, like there’s the pieces of the conversation that are omitted, whether it’s intentional or not, are really important pieces to not overlook. And when you when you mentioned the shame, I think about the shame that goes along with when you tell people well don’t buy that latte, because if you if you do that, then you know you can’t save. First of all, why does it have to be either or why can’t there be a little bit of both/and but the other thing is, people I think sometimes don’t realize the damage that’s done when you shame people in general, but when you shame starting with just a little and again, that’s why I emphasize the point of it’s okay to start from zero because on some level, we’re starting from zero and a lot of different things. If you’re creating a new offer or new product or new talk, you’re starting from zero.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love all of that. And so, okay, so what so what, what are what are the components that we omit consciously unconsciously? Or we don’t take into consideration either for ourselves or for others? Where they’re at? Let’s just name those?

Jacquette M Timmons
Well, one, someone’s circumstances and context, right. So it’s just like, you know, when some people comment on other people’s health or – not well health or, or fitness. It’s just like, well, you don’t know if they’ve got a medical condition that you are not aware of that might be causing them to either look the way that they look or, you know, to have the response to exercise the way that they have, like, there’s just so much that you don’t know. And so I think in terms of the piece that’s missing, it is not being aware of how you might be projecting what works for you. And, you know, being unaware of what that person is making work, given their circumstances, because like, if we bring it back to money, you don’t know if not only are they growing a business and taking care of their family, but maybe they are taking care of a sick parent.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Jacquette M Timmons
And it’s taking financial resources. So I don’t know if that answers your question. But to me, that’s a piece that’s missing, like not really paying attention to what assumptions or projections that we might make as an outsider. Seeing one thing, and not really knowing what all is behind the curtain of that one thing?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, and I, yeah, I mean, all of that. And it’s, you know, some – you know, like, I, when I was younger, wasn’t wasn’t familiar, wasn’t aware of the idea of generational wealth. And, as I’ve gotten older, and more aware, like that has become so much more apparent, right, that the impact that that has, again, on literally on generations, and I mean, I’m, I won’t get into the whole, like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and why that’s all problematic. But like, but taking into account and, you know, and it’s something that I’ve been finding myself that when we have moments where we are maybe recipients of that generational wealth, or we are givers, right, you know, of, we’re in a position where we can give our nibbling some money towards their education, and I’m always like, congratulations. And let’s name this what this is, you know, like, let’s, let’s name this, this advantage that you, this privilege that you have in this moment. And yeah, and I think that it can be really difficult. I’m curious to hear your thoughts about – you know, and then how does that, how do those that context shape our internal dialogue? So obviously, it has impact on how other people may view or judgments they might make or assumptions they might make, but something that speaking from my lived experiences, and that can really shape your internal conversation around money and your internal belief around what money can do for you, should look like for you. Right? And so I’m curious to hear, you know, what do you see in your clients of, yeah, just how that also impacts our internal dialogue.

Jacquette M Timmons
So one of the things that I always say to people is that money is one of the longest relationships that you will have in your life, you know, next to your parents or whomever may have raised you from birth or from a young age, money is probably, again, the longest relationship that you will have. And just like your relationship with your parents today is very different than when you were a younger adult, a teenager, a child and infant, your relationship with money will change over the course of your lifetime. And I think when it comes to context, it is understanding the context that may have shaped the beginnings of your beliefs about money. Your initial behaviors with it gave the initial expectations of what it is that you want money to do for you, your experiences over time, either validate those, or give you another reality. So that context changes, and the circumstances of those contexts of that context changes. And I think sometimes we are so stuck, that we don’t let it change. And just like any other relationship in your life, even though it may go through some challenging times, a sign of it being healthy is that it changes. And so the same should be the case when it comes to our relationship with money. And similarly, our relationship with our business, it should not be the same. When we look at the you know, if we’re looking at – we’re having our conversation on February 2, 2023. When we look at our relationship with our businesses and money today, and if you had a business five years ago, go back. And hopefully it looks different, because then that means that you have incorporated the lessons from the challenges that you’ve bumped up against in that five year period. And then hopefully, in 2028, God willing, you will have a different relationship with money and with your business, because whatever the lessons are, that you are learning right now, you will have figured out well, how do I incorporate that? How do I, you know, integrate that into my decision making process?

Sarah Noll Wilson
I feel like I’m at the Church of Jacquette right now.

Jacquette M Timmons
(laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, again, the – how we don’t let it change it, I mean, that in, in part of this is it, it is hitting me on a really personal level. And some of it is because I have seen the consequences and the impact, when the relationship and belief with money hasn’t changed, right? I’ve seen that in loved ones. And so, I mean, there’s some some deep, deep heart heart hits that are happening. And, boy, that point you made of a sign of it being healthy, is that you should see it change. And I mean, that feels profound on multiple levels, just even outside of money, like relationships, your personal growth, right, like all of this. And and what a great, you know, part of the intention of us starting the show is what are some of those questions we should be asking ourselves? And, you know, and what a great, what a great point of reflection, a gift you just given us all to go, how has it changed? Has it changed enough? Am I okay, with how it’s changed? It hasn’t not changed? Right?

Jacquette M Timmons
Right. Exactly.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and to evaluate that? And and I don’t know, I mean, I, I would, you know, I’d be curious as people are listening to this and reflecting how many people think about the fact that there is it is a relationship. That there is a relationship and to your point it it’s like breathing, right? You’re always thinking about do I have enough money? Or do I, how do I want to spend the money? I mean, it’s it’s, you know, it’s like a fish in water and the money is water, you don’t even realize you’re swimming in it yet.

Jacquette M Timmons
Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, so speaking of, hmm. So, speaking of relationships, I want, I want you to talk with us, I would like to invite you to explore that idea of intimacy, because that’s not a phrase I’ve ever heard related with our financial success and stability. So say just yet, let’s just say more about that. I think that’s such an interesting concept that you bring forward in your work.

Jacquette M Timmons
So you know, Financial Intimacy is the title of my book. And when I wrote my book, it was to really explore the intersection of love and money, but through like a social critics lens of going back in time, what has changed over the last 40 years, economically, politically, socially, and from a familial standpoint, that influenced how we, and especially as women show up in relationships connected to money. And as I was exploring it, what I realized is that the intimacy wasn’t there, people weren’t having the right conversations, you know, they were talking about money, but they weren’t having the conversations that were really, as one of the things that I’ve heard you say in some of your podcast, interviews, meaningful. (laughs) And then, you know, although the book was centered around couples, one of the things that I really wanted people to get from it is that you actually can’t create intimacy with someone else, until you’ve created it with yourself. And I think there’s this notion, a cultural notion that things have to be perfect. And, well, one, we’re humans, so we’re not going to be perfect. But my whole point was that you don’t have to wait until your relationship with money is perfect before you can form this perfect relationship with someone else around money. It’s because it’s almost like this three, this three circle Venn diagram right with you, the other person and money and then there’s this overlapping area, right. But this whole notion of intimacy is that intimacy requires you to be vulnerable. It requires you to be mindful of the things where you are attaching self judgment to your situation where you are projecting judgment on other people. It requires you to be real and honest with yourself about your expectations, about your beliefs and to give yourself permission to what you want. And when I talk about intimacy is intimacy with self, it’s intimacy with other people. But it’s also recognizing that not everybody’s entitled to that intimacy. However, we need to be more –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Their not entitled, sorry, just a point of clarification. They’re not entitled to that intimacy, or they’re not entitled to be aware of your intimacy?

Jacquette M Timmons
I think it’s a bit of a both. But I do think we need to have more transparent conversations. So can I share a little example of what I mean?

Yes, please. Yes, please.

Sarah Noll Wilson
So I don’t know the movie that this is connected to. But the movie was with Jessica Chastain and Octavia Spencer. And they were having dinner one on one. And Octavia, I think, took a very bold and risky move, in that she shared with Jessica, how much she was getting paid for her role in the movie. Well, Jessica was aghast because she was getting paid multiples more than. And to her credit, she went to bat so that they were both on equal ground. They had both a transparent and intimate conversation around money, because they got to the numbers. And you know what, the only people that know the numbers are them, their agents and the studio. When Octavia shared this conversation at an Aspen Institute event, she just told the experience of being vulnerable enough to share with someone, this is how much I’m getting paid for this movie, she didn’t know how Jessica was going to respond. And yet, because of that response, they were able to have a deeper conversation. So transparency is you share the larger story so that other people can see the benefit of having conversations around money, the intimacy is no one knows what the numbers are for either one of them. We just know a factor. And it was X factor. That’s it. But in the middle of both of that is power. Right, because Jessica has the power to go to bat. Octavia was stating her own self agency and exercised her power in terms of making that choice to initiate that conversation. And then all of the other elements and you know, people that were involved had some degree of power to make it happen. Again, I don’t know if I answered your question, but.

Yeah, well, I mean, gosh, there’s yeah, that’s, there’s, there’s so many, there’s so many beautiful lessons in that. Well, and, and, and that also, you know, there’s a lot of talk in the workplace right now of sharing salaries, right, sharing, right, one of the ways we can overcome pay inequities is by being much more transparent about it. And there’s a lot of tension. You know, some people are pro like, I don’t know, let’s just be really transparent. And, you know, like, in perhaps intimate from the standpoint of like, let’s share numbers and let’s be real about it. And and then there’s other schools of thought, typically from leaders of like, you’re creating a headache, and please don’t and, and then that intersection with power. And I don’t know how we talk about relationship with finances. Value, I mean, all of that, if – without without talking about the role power plays, we can’t.

Jacquette M Timmons
Yeah. Yeah. There’s no way to omit it. There’s no way which is why I had the same reaction as you to this whole notion of pull yourself up by your bootstraps. I also have a very similar reaction when, because, you know, it’s Black History Month, right. And so, sometimes there’s a lot of conversation around financial literacy in black communities, and it drives me crazy. I absolutely hate it. Because, number one, I have issue with the term financial literacy. But number two, it makes it seem as if we are a community of people that are operating at a deficit. And it’s like, do you realize –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Like a deficit of competence, not a deficit of resources and access to resources and power and all of that. All of it.

Jacquette M Timmons
All of it. And it’s like, there’s no recognition of the history that goes with starting something, again, from nothing from – there’s no, you know, connection to the fact that, again, history, we had communities of wealth, and folks burned it down and we had to rebuild again. So, I really, –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Over and over and over again.

Jacquette M Timmons
Right. And so I really disliked this whole notion that doesn’t – that so centers personal choice, and personal choice is important. But it enters it so much, in the absence of the systemic choices and power, that those personal choices bump up against. I’m not absolving folks of their personal agency and their personal responsibility, but it always, going back to – I feel like I overused this word, but it always goes back to context.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there’s, there’s, there’s so much you can, there’s, (exhales) I can have a bucket, and I can, I don’t know if this is the right metaphor, this is what’s coming up from my brain. Like, and if I’m in a container that’s constantly getting water dumped on me, like, there are things I can do to try to move the water out faster. But at some point, when there’s so much water coming in, there’s only so much that I can do.

Jacquette M Timmons
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and it is real convenient – well, it’s real convenient to overlook the historic.

Jacquette M Timmons
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, and it’s real, you know, both consciously, intentionally and unintentionally, it’s really, it’s really convenient. And, you know, and again, that, that generational impact of constantly having to start from zero, because even if, you know, like, I like I look at, you know, I look at my family lineage, and like, I’ve, like, every generation, on some level is been able to move a little bit further, right. Like, we didn’t come from much. Um, but like, we’re, we’re building like, every generation is building on that. And when that is completely decimated, and wiped out like it it has such a significant impact such a significant impact.

Jacquette M Timmons
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Sarah Noll Wilson
All right. I, we have to give space to charging your worth. When you and I had our first conversation, I said some comment, and I said it again today. And as soon as you’re like, I was like, right, I forgot, I forgot that call out. A lot of times we hear that that phrase of like charging our worth. And you’re like, I have actually have a lot of issue. So talk to me about why that that is a problematic statement for us to reframe, because I think it’s really, really powerful and important.

Jacquette M Timmons
Yes, thank you for raising it here in the context of our formal conversation. So the reason that I have a problem with “charge what you’re worth,” and for those that are not watching on YouTube, I’m black. (laughs) My heritage is Jamaican American. And from an ancestral standpoint, I have ancestors, where there was dollar amount placed on their humanity. So when I hear the phrase “charge what you’re worth,” I have a very visceral reaction to it even though I am probably 99.9% certain that when the person says that, that is not what they mean, but that is how I react to it. There’s the visceral reaction. But even if I set that aside, I also feel like it misses the point. Because when you are charging for what it is that you are bringing to the world, whether it’s a service, a product, a combination, whatever it is that you are offering, what you are charging for is the job that that offering is doing in the life of the person or the entity that’s buying it. What question is it helping them to address? What frustration is it helping them to tackle? What desire is it helping them to fulfill? What challenge are you helping them to successfully overcome? Because everything that you do has two jobs, an external job of what I’ve just described, and it has a job within your business. So when you’re charging, you’re charging for the complexity of how you are helping them with one of those things. And yes, in terms of who you are, you’re bringing yourself to that equation. You’re bringing your education, both formal and informal. You’re bringing your experience, you’re bringing your expertise, your talents, your gifts, your perspective, all the things that make you uniquely you, you’re bringing that to the table. But that is not what you’re charging for, you’re charging for the value of the container, that you are helping them do something. Because what you would charge for an hour is very different if you’re charging for working with you for a year or something. So that’s why I feel like it’s, you know, nails, my short nails on a chalkboard (laughs) when someone says, charge what you’re worth, because I feel like they’re missing the entire point. Even if that’s not their intention, I think they miss it in terms of the language because of the mindset that shapes that language.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, that that was such a provocative push and, you know, and interesting, you know, that it’s such an ingrained phrase that, you know, that we realized, like, oh, I’d gotten away from the like, provocative insight and went right back into that pattern of, “Okay, what do we charge, charge what we’re worth and, and also that point you made about, you know, part of it is the complexity of what you’re helping them be able to resolve. And, you know, which is why, I mean, in the spirit of now, by the time this airs, it won’t be February, but it’s a good reminder for folks anytime of the year. You know, if you’re hiring black speakers for Black History Month, you need to be paying them and not with exposure, because the emotional labor is also like substantial in the situations that you know, I mean, probably what I think the most complex situation we face as a as a nation is navigating racism and capitalism and patriarchy and all of those, but that that is the top of it, that is the most complex. And, you know, and I, and I know that this is like, sometimes that, you know, as a business owner, making sure that we see that complexity, and can speak to that, you know, it’s kind of like, as somebody who does speak, people will be like you charge what for an hour? But oh, no, this isn’t an hour. And I’m going to be working with 100 leaders who, if they can leave doing this just 5% better, what value did that bring to you?

Jacquette M Timmons
Exactly, yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and what has opened up and what has released for you? And it’s, you know, so yeah, we can talk just time, this isn’t just an hour, we can talk that, we can talk lived experience, we can talk, right, all all of those things. And, you know, and if, if what, what what someone is being asked to do is really complex and emotionally complex than man, we better make sure that we are paying them appropriately for that.

Jacquette M Timmons
Yeah. And can I tie this back also to something that you said earlier on, connected to like, first generation and just things that we do and how this shows up?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Jacquette M Timmons
So, and I’m taking this from a coaching client that I worked with first generation, and the messaging was all about education and so she did all of things, right. Ivy undergrad, Ivy business school, major consulting firm, then joined a partnership and then went out on her own and couldn’t quite understand why when out on her own, the same scope of work that she would have done inside the partnership, she was getting pushed back on in terms of the pricing. So there were two things that are going on, because then instead of pushing back on the pricing, understandably so, she would acquiesce and she would lower. Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yep.

Jacquette M Timmons
So but there are two things going on there. There was one the self-consciousness about, well, I’m brown, right. In her case, she was brown and she’s like, well, maybe this is all I can get. And then there was the messaging because while she did all of the things that her family said to do from an educational standpoint, there was another message and that other message was don’t be like those rich people.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, yep.

Jacquette M Timmons
And so now from a financial standpoint, she’s like those rich people. And there’s a benefit to her family for that because now she’s able to take care of them in a way that she wouldn’t if she didn’t, but that is shaping her ability without her even knowing it. That is shaping her ability to go in and negotiate and really demand a higher price point because it’s also connected to, it’s not saying the same thing so explicitly “charge what you’re worth.” But if you are, you know harboring this message that says, don’t be like those rich people, well, then that is going to stunt you, when you are having to negotiate on your own without the protection of a partnership or larger consultancy that’s setting the prices and you have, you’re not the one that’s negotiating, you know, having to navigate those negotiations is what I’m trying to say. So that’s why it’s all connected.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Mm hmm. I mean, you just like spoke my life. Not entirely, obviously, like, I have a different experience as a white woman. But but certainly like, as a woman, as a woman who grew up in a blue collar family, right? Truck driver union guy. We live down, right people who lived on the bluff they were, right. And and that that is, I didn’t even realize how some of those old “tapes” were impacting, seeing the value.

Jacquette M Timmons
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And sabotaging, like on it, right, like so you have external sabotage. Because I mean, gosh, insert whatever industry and we know that women are paid less, and then that decreases when you’re a mother. And that decreases when you’re black. And that decreases when you’re Hispanic and right like and when when you’re older, and all of those factors. And so you have the external barriers you’re fighting. And then like you’re talking and we have these internal barriers we’re fighting. What are some of the reflection questions? What are some of the reframe, like, what’s some of the internal work? Because I assume there are other people who are like, yeah, I know that tape. Yep. (laughs) I, you know – I was joking with somebody was like, like, just last night. I said, I don’t, I don’t fit in, like luxury hotels. Like they can I feel like they can see the dirt under my nails. Like there’s like, right, which is like old tapes from being lower income and growing up, but what are some of the reframes? And, um, questions we can be asking so we can release some of that, because, yeah, it’s like, we can fight the structure. And we can continue pushing, and doing all that and hopefully making as much movement with it. But let’s not make it harder by creating an internal barrier. So how do we how do we overcome that?

Jacquette M Timmons
There is an exercise that I do with clients, and I call it five and five. And the top five is inviting people to think about the people, the five people that they spend the most time with, what are those relationships? And in what ways do those relationships energize you or deplete you? The bottom five, are five people that are running around in your head, you may not even know them, you may not have ever had a conversation with them, but they’re running around in your head, influencing how you think, what you think is possible, all kinds of stuff, like write that down as well. And again, who is the person? Maybe it’s someone you know, maybe it’s a beloved, that’s no longer with us. Or maybe it’s someone that you know, but for whatever reason, you’re not on speaking terms, and yet, they’re still again, running around in your head. And like with the top five, how do they energize you? And how do they deplete you of energy? And then ask yourself the question, if my relate – if my business were a person, which of these relationships would it most reflect? If the way I think about sales, which of these relationships would it most reflect? If the way I think about pricing and how I approach pricing, which relationships would this most reflect? And it’s not to make anybody, you know, beat up on any of those relationships? If you’re like, oh my god.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right, right.

Jacquette M Timmons
It is to be aware, so that you can figure out what do you need to do so that that relationship is not hurting you? And here’s why I came up with the exercise, because I realized that my relationship or a better way of putting it the absence of my relationship with my father was showing up in my sales process. Everybody knows that in sales part of the deal is you got to follow up. And I would get to the point where I was just like, oh, I want them to choose me, choose me, choose me. Right. And so I had this really weird relationship with the follow up process, because it was more coming from the standpoint of them choosing me, as opposed to it being a mutual selection. And I had to design a follow up process that really protected me from crossing that line from feeling like I was begging to be chosen. And we I don’t think we sometimes think about the ways in which the relationships that are in our lives, both literally and just perhaps even just figuratively, in our head, shapes just how we navigate this business world of ours. And so I came up with that exercise, because I was like, oh shoot, I went to therapy, I thought I had this all figured out. (laughter) Clearly not.

Oh, my head hurts cause this is so good. And I just want to go and spend time and reflect on this. But that – it makes so much sense because we know that like, these tapes, our default patterns don’t just get shaped by us, they get shaped by those around us. Now, and and a lot of our tapes are from when we’re children, and right. We don’t even realize that we’re – that’s something I’m unpacking with my therapy and reflecting on and just how does this show up? Like when am I? When is young Sarah actually reacting versus like, old Sarah, like current Sarah? Could it also be valuable to reframe what do you what’s the relationship you like, want to exhibit that? Does that make sense?

It totally does and I totally get where you’re going. And it’s interesting, because whenever someone comes to me, and they are beating themselves up, either for what they feel they’re not doing or maybe the numbers are, the results are in the numbers they’re not doing well.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.

Jacquette M Timmons
I will always invite them to think about, well, who do you think is doing it right? And what are they doing right? And you have the benefit of it being a relative that you can actually have a conversation with around well, how are you doing this? And what do you do in this scenario versus this scenario? Others don’t necessarily have that. But even still, you can make some assumptions and that’s what they would be if you can’t get them verified. But you can make some assumptions about, oh, I see this person over here and their business looks like x. And I want that or I want I want something similar to that. And I think that they’re making these choices. That can be just as valuable as literally being able to have a conversation with someone to know precisely, what choices did they make? Why did you choose A over B or B over A? Like that is incredibly valuable and so yeah, I definitely think being able to also tap into, “Well, who do I want to be like?” is beneficial because you know, what, what you might discover is that, oh, I like their results, but I don’t like their trade offs. (laughter)

Sarah Noll Wilson
Also, also accurate, also incredibly accurate. And I think that a trap that can happen. I love you so much. Also, I think a trap that can happen is in looking, in looking towards someone or an organization or whatever is to make sure that you don’t get into the comparison game, right of like, oh, they’ve figured this out, they’re doing this that, right? Like because that can – boy, that can be a real easy shame spiral to fall into. But it is – and so that’s a catch, right? I think that’s a catch with it and boy it speaks to how, especially for business owners, people who are listening to this, but again like it, it doesn’t even have to be business owners, like we, you know, like, sexual intimacy, we don’t talk about financial intimacy. And then you’re left just going like, is there something wrong with me? Is there something wrong with us? Is there something and then you talk to other people, like, oh, this is – oh, you you struggle with this too? Or, Oh, I actually think this is normal and what we see on TV is not accurate, or whatever the case is like, so how do we you know, like, part of what I’m holding on to is just continuing to build out those relationships because they’re so important. They’re so valuable because otherwise like when you’re in your own head, right, that’s when the shame can come in. That’s when the frustration and then I feel like when shame comes in doubt follows real closely behind like real close behind.

Jacquette M Timmons
Yes, yes. Absolutely.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and you’re right, I mean, I have realized actually, that when I am feeling doubt, as a business owner I have a few people who I’ve identified that the minute I start spiraling I go, nope. Okay, wait. These are people who will be honest with me, who will be intimate with me, I love I love applying that language. They’re transparent and that can stop it. And so that’s also, you know, like, how do we how do we have these conversations you know about again, and I love I love that point you made of we can even have like, an intimate conversation without like, the explicit numbers always too. I’m thinking about when I was, I don’t know, my late 20s, and a good friend of ours, you know, it was like, you know, my goal is to be financially independent. And I remember being like, what’s that? I don’t know what that is. So what do you guys, what are you all doing? You know, and just, if I didn’t know a number, but we started having this great conversation and I was like, wow, I didn’t even I didn’t even know that was a possibility, I didn’t even know that was a concept. I didn’t know that was something you can strive towards. And being, you know, open to, to talking about those things is such a is such a valuable gift. – I’m just reflecting on how important that is and trying to be even more intentional about that.

Jacquette M Timmons
Yeah, and if I can even just add, you know, with the intimacy without necessarily diving into the numbers. So I’m a single child and raised by a single mother, my parents separated when I was two, but they didn’t get divorced until I was 13. But father, not very present. I say all of this to say that my mother worked for social – my mother was first a professional musician. And then when they separated, you know, she’s wound down her working as a professional musician, because she was traveling all over the country. And, you know, leaving me with the babysitter. So all that is to say, she retired and started working for Social Security. So my mother was a federal employee for 38 years. I say all of this because of this. Even though we didn’t come from a private banking background, my mother was hell bent on making sure that she had her estate planning done, and all of that. And so she did. And I look at that, as you know, a gift of love, because it allowed me when she died, to grieve uninterrupted, because things were taken care of that I didn’t have to try to like figure out afterward. But when you talk about the intimacy, without the numbers, the one thing I did not know, was that my mother didn’t have a mortgage. I did not find that out until she died. Because I inherited everything. But not only the gift of her doing the estate planning process, but the gift of not having a mortgage. And I think about how the hell did she do that on social security salery. (laughs) But I didn’t know the numbers. And so I share that as an example of your right, the intimacy, because clearly, I knew about the estate planning and all of that, because I was a part of the process. But I did not know that detail. And so you can still have those, you know, rich, meaningful conversations and still leave a piece of the puzzle out. And it’s still intimate.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I was gonna ask, like, was I, you know, was that was that accurate of me, actually, is I was reflecting it was like, well, or what are you potentially missing out on? Right? Or? And it you know, and I get it, you know, it it can be incredibly – I mean, it actually is very vulnerable. Whether that is, I don’t know, having conversations around debt, having conversations around how much you spent on something. Having conversations around salary, having conversations – you know, in my world, like our world, right, I remember starting out and some people, I was really fortunate to have one of my one of my good friends Alan Fire, he was, he was like, I will tell you exactly what I charged from day one. And I will tell you where I’m at now, and I will tell you where I’m going or where I want to go. And, and he said because so many people wouldn’t share that with me because they held it so close to their chest. And I just had a conversation this morning with somebody who wants to get into coaching. I said, I’m like I’m an open book. You know, we need to have these conversations. We need to we need to push it, but I get why it’s so vulnerable. Because, will people think that I’m charging too much. Will people think that I’m like, they’ll pass judgment on me because I you know, have have debt and like how did you get out of it and how do you right like manage it? And, boy, you know, we just, we have so much additional suffering (laughs) because we aren’t having the conversations we need to again, either with ourselves about this or, or other people and I do I kind of just keep tying it into, like relationship intimacy, and, and how, again, how much like loneliness or suffering or doubt unnecessary doubt is happening because we aren’t, we aren’t talking about this.

Jacquette M Timmons
Yeah. But you know what, I think, I think part of the problem is somewhere along the line, we were sold, that it shouldn’t be awkward. And that’s why we’re not comfortable with it being awkward. It’s not supposed to be easy. It’s not supposed to be, you know, comfortable. And if we just embraced it, it would make it a lot easier. But somehow or another, culturally, the message is, all this stuff, all this human stuff is somehow supposed to be easy. It’s supposed to be popping in the microwave that 30 seconds and just gonna come out just you see?

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Or as one of my clients would say, her mother would say, 12 seconds, everything can be heated properly in 12 seconds. (laughter) I would actually, I want to Yes/And it like, yes, that’s such an astute point and, and sometimes I think we have made it seem like a bigger boogie monster, but not like – What am I, a child? Like a bigger monster than it actually is. And we’ve like, we, we, we doubt our ability to sit in the discomfort of it, right? It’s like, no, no, you do not talk about this. That is the taboo subject because, right, I think you’re absolutely right and that it is like, well, no, it should be easy and it should be – Like, I’m – I don’t know, talking about your needs in a relationship, like, well, look at what happened in that movie. And then they’re married and their kids and nobody’s talking about the, you know, guy that the woman left, right, and we’re not talking about his pain, because like, this is just she’s not leaving with guilt. But I’m always fascinated with that, like, I let’s see the – yeah, you’re absolutely right. And then sometimes I feel like we’ve made it a bigger thing than it needs to be. And we’ve in we’ve lost our – we have – the words are escaping me right now. But I think that we underestimate our efficacy.

Jacquette M Timmons
Hmm.

Sarah Noll Wilson
In sitting in the discomfort.

Jacquette M Timmons
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s like we like, yeah, it’s gonna be uncomfortable and we don’t think we can handle it, or we don’t think the other person can handle it. And, and that I think can be, you know, like, just as damaging as well. And so it’s, I mean, you know, hopefully, hopefully, the lesson that I know, I continue to sit with is just like, step into it, trust trust that, you know, and and yeah, sometimes it’s risky.

Jacquette M Timmons
But when you said the word trust, it reminded me that so much of that is trusting ourselves.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Jacquette M Timmons
And sometimes that can be more difficult for some than, than for others. And so –

Sarah Noll Wilson
100% Yeah.

Jacquette M Timmons
You know, it’s a matter of building up that self trust muscle.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Which is, you know, all the all the work that you do with people, right, and the ways that you reconnect with – I so value and appreciate your approach to something that so often is treated so transactionally. You approach it so transformationally, because it is and it can be. And so, just thank you for the work that you do.

Jacquette M Timmons
Awe.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And, you know, I know, I want to ask your last question, but I do just want to – I am sitting in such deep gratitude and appreciation that our paths have crossed, and you’re doing the work you’re doing, how you’re doing it. And for people who are listening, you can work with her. Thinking about, you can you know you see that. All right. So before we get to how people can reach out to you who want to learn more about the work you’re doing, and how you can support them. I always want to honor by asking the last question we ask all of our guests, which is what is the conversation Jacquette that you have had with yourself or with someone else that was transformative. Doesn’t need to be the most, but just what’s one?

Jacquette M Timmons
Does a conversation with my therapist count?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Ope. Yeah! Because that’s like both yourself and someone else, and someone who’s not in the room. So it’s like the whole family dinner. (laughter)

Jacquette M Timmons
Exactly. A conversation with my therapist, and it was reframing something that I thought was a negative, and turning it into a positive. And so for a variety of reasons, I’ve always felt like an outsider. And through our work, I’m beginning to embrace that and appreciate that and to recognize how that actually has been a blessing for me in my work, and the body of work that I’ve been able to build over the last 30 plus years. And so I think it’s, it’s recognizing that what I initially felt like, you know, I’m the outsider, again, (laughs) has really been beneficial. And so it’s that reframing.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that. I mean, you have such a valuable perspective on the balcony, right, to see, to see patterns and to see interactions. That’s, thank you for sharing that. How can people connect with you what is the best way for folks to connect with you who are interested in getting your book, check it out your podcast, working with you?

Jacquette M Timmons
I’m gonna suggest that folks go to my website, jacquettetimmons dot com and more specifically, Jacquettetimmons dot com/wheel, and do the financial wheel exercise, which is free. But the purpose of doing the financial wheel exercise is that it helps you to either connect or reconnect with the financial vision of what it is that you want money to do for you. And that can just help to shape so many decisions, because you can do the exercise. And then ask yourself the question, if I change nothing about my business, my business models, sales process and pricing, can I make this vision a reality? And if the answer is no, it gives you an immediate feedback on what you can do to change that. And if you’re listening and you don’t own a business, it’s still really valuable, because we all need to be connected with our vision and give ourselves permission to imagine what it is we want money to do for us. So that’s what I would invite people to do. And I love me some Instagram, (laugh) so go there. Come follow me on Instagram, or LinkedIn. Yeah, that’s how folks can be in touch.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, we will, we will be sure to post your website and then we can put post that specific link in the show notes. We’ll send folks to your various social accounts, you know, again, I mean, let me know what we owe you for this hour of – (laughs) personal coaching. I feel like I just I left with some like, I think I got my next conversation with my therapist plotted out what I’m gonna start unpacking.

Jacquette M Timmons
Oh my god, I’m just so grateful. Because, you know, I’ve been looking forward to this since we first chatted and shout out to Neha, who introduced us. Oh, I’m just so grateful. So thank you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, no, I feel like the pleasure is all mine in that so thank you so much for saying yes to the show. And again, just thank you for all the work you do and –

Jacquette M Timmons
Thank you for yours.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Just grateful to have you here.

Jacquette M Timmons
Mutual love fest. (laughter)

Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been Jacquette Timmons, and I’m not sure if I’ve ever been speechless as often as I have in that conversation because there was so much that she was sharing that was new perspectives and and hitting things you know, gosh, one of the things that really is resonating for me is that idea of a sign of a healthy relationship with finances is that our relationship with it should change. And that’s such a gift not only in thinking about it with relationships, but really thinking about it with all aspects of our life. If our, you know, we should be evolving as people we should be evolving in how we view ourselves. We should be evolving in the relationships we have with our our spouses, our partners, our friends, our family members. And what a gift that is to just reflect and go am am I moving forward? Is it different? That that was just a significant, significant gifts she brought to this conversation. I just want to have a conversation now about this conversation by myself but I won’t because we’re closing the show down now.

So we do want to hear from you, we love hearing from you. Let us know what resonated. What were ah-has for you? What was coming up for you as you heard our conversation? You can always reach out to us at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. You can also find me on social media where my DMs are always open. And if you’d like to find out more about the work we do and how we can help your team have conversations that matter. Check us out at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. You can also pick up a copy of my latest book, Don’t Feed the Elephants! wherever books are sold. And if you’d like to support the show, which we always appreciate, please consider becoming a patron. You can visit patreon.com/conversations on conversations. We’re not only your financial support will sustain this podcast and our amazing team you’ll also get access to some pretty great swag. And if you haven’t already, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us increase our visibility so we can continue to bring on just amazing guests like Jacquette. I want to do a big thank you to our incredible team that makes the podcast possible, To our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant ksn marketing and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew.

And just a final thank you to Jacquette Timmons for coming on the show, for sharing so openly and leaving us all with incredible gifts so we can change the relationship and the conversations we’re having around our finances. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So be sure to rest, rehydrate and we will see you again next week.