Episode 045: A Conversation on HR Mediation with T. Maxine Woods-McMillan

In Part Two of their conversation, Sarah Noll Wilson and guest T. Maxine Woods-McMillan, Esq. discuss the strategies Maxine recommends to prepare ahead for conflict, based on her experience as both an attorney and a mediator.

About Our Guest

Throughout her career, T. Maxine Woods-McMillan has been known as The Great Translator – finding ways to make parties with differing, and at times, competing interests understand the position of the other. And when that has not been successful, her talented advocacy skills make her equally effective at getting the fact finder in a dispute to see the position of her client. Maxine’s practice focuses on employment law, business dispute resolution, and workplace equity and equality. She represents employees when their rights have been violated and is also a trusted advisor and trainer for employers and their staff to help prevent the violation of those rights before it occurs. She is a compassionate yet formidable advocate in the areas of discrimination on the basis of race, sex, gender, pregnancy, religion, national origin, and age, as well as sexual or racial harassment and wrongful/retaliatory termination. She also brings niche understanding to the distinct dynamic created when the workplace intersects with a family relationship or is a part of a faith community, and is particularly equipped to assist with legal advocacy in those areas.

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Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello, and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves, and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson and this week we are continuing our conversation with Attorney T. Maxine Woods McMillan, as we explore the very important topic of conflict and mediation, I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did having it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
One of the things, one of the things when we were starting to prep for this conversation, you know, in talking about what are the things we want to make sure we talk about because you have mentioned the words, strategy, structure, plan, right? And even I do, yeah, that that that image of know, the know the procedure enough that you can get through it when faced with it. So let’s, let’s talk that because, you know, something that you had mentioned is that people don’t realize that, especially from a mediation perspective in that work, that there is a formula, or there’s a formalized process for it. So so let’s get into the structure and the strategy. You know, because most people, what I hear is they’re like, I don’t know what to say, I don’t know how to start, what if, you know, but what if this happens? So where do we start?

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
So that’s the good thing about when you bring in a mediator, first of all, the term mediator reflects that that person is a neutral. Now, what I tell people all the time is I am neutral as it pertains to the outcome. I am not a neutral as it pertains, I’m neutral as it pertains to the outcome. And I’m neutral as it pertains to the position so I’m not on either person’s side, so to speak. I am not the arbiter of right or wrong. However, we do have foundational norms. Right? So some things are not right for mediation, they’re not appropriate for mediation, for example, workplace violence, we’re not mediating that. Right? You know, you know, Joey hit Johnny, you know, you know, Shawn hit hit Kim, you know, and then, you know, Keisha hit, you know, Brandon, there’s no, we’re not mediating that. Overt sexual harassment, you know, sexual assault, sexual violence, undesired touching, you know, those kinds of those are not things that we are mediating. So when we talk about mediation, we have to make sure that we’re not talking about areas in which one person is being victimized, or the power dynamic is such that there can be no resolution, when there is an absolute right or wrong. Like, I am not the person to call and be like, well, yeah, you know, there was some issues where I may have not asked permission before I sexually assaulted her. But let’s see if we can mediate our way out of like, that is not something that I’m going to be able to help you work through.

Sarah Noll Wilson
This. Okay. So I want to, I want to pause here because I want to, I want to, I want to hear the rest of your thinking. But I do want to pause because I know we have a lot of folks in our audience who are in HR. And sometimes what I see is that there are situations that are really obvious and egregious, that are treated like they’re not. So I just I wanted to just pause and and invite people to reflect on their, their our non-negotiables that we’re not going to bring two people together, to mediate them. And sometimes you know, and even in our work when we’re working with people with, you know, like we call it our curiosity, first approach, like curiosity can be weaponized. Like, I’m not going to ask somebody to be curious about the person who, you know, harass them who harmed them who like that. So I just sorry, I just wanted to take a moment because I’m sure people are listening going. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. But, but what I’ve seen in practice, is a lot of times, again, almost any form of conflict avoidance is like, oh, we’re going to bring these two together to like, clear the air or to figure things out. When it’s like, no, there’s a clear line that was crossed, and that that needs to be handled differently. So sorry, continue. I just wanted to take a moment.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
Oh, no apologies necessary, because you bring up a great point. So I started this years ago, in a workplace setting, but there’s a different dynamic. There are things that I can do as an external that you can’t do as an internal, right.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure. Sure.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
So when I was when I was in that HR executive role, I’m still employed by the company, I still have a certain interest that just just, lets just be pragmatic, right? Like, that’s still my employer. Right? That still I still have to, you know, be thinking in the interest of the organization. And anyone who tells you that that’s not part of the calculus, I’m like, okay, lets see how you’re doing this. But the advantage of – so so what I what I’ve been told is other people are like, you know, what I’m so glad you’re coming in and dealing with that, because there’s a certain, there’s certain liberties that you can take, because you can truly be neutral, I am coming in for that reason for that purpose, right. And I always tell people like my, my client, is the resolution. Right? My client is resolution to this issue, it is not either one of you. This is a different dynamic than if I’m stepping into a situation in my capacity as an attorney, when I come in, as an attorney, it’s very clear, I am your attorney, I have a responsibility to you as my client, and that as part of that adversarial, the adversarial nature of that dynamic. Of course, your interests are going to supersede that of the other party. Every time hands down, no calculation needed. As a mediator who was external to the organization, when you’re brought in specifically for that purpose you don’t have to contend with that same concern, right. You can truly fully and honestly be there for the, in the interest of what is best to resolve this, which ultimately ends up being in the interest of the organization. And here’s why, when people are not one dealing with that intra personal conflict, when they’re not dealing with resentment, which takes up psychic energy and psychic energy we know can be palpable can be you know, it can you can feel it. I’m sure we’ve all walked into a room and we don’t know what happened. But we know something happened.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
And because that takes up space what it’s also doing is it’s it’s pushing work out the way, it’s pushing progress out the way, it’s pushing innovation out the way, it’s pushing the liberty you talked about, where you’re just free to just do the work, and do it in a way that’s creative. And everyone to some degree, has some level of creativity in the work that they do. If they’re if they’re well positioned. It takes away that creativity, and it takes away that courage. Because you’re not courageous, you’re not feeling very courageous, when you’re contending with anger. Right. And when you continue with anger, when you have fear of being hurt further, when you are – when you feel wronged and so now you’re fully dealing with your ego, guess what’s not happening, you’re dealing with all of that, you’re not thinking about how to best collaborate, you’re not thinking about how do we get to the next level. And you’re definitely not thinking about the customer. At that point is I’m gonna do my job. And so we’re now weaponizing our work against each other, but we’re not collaborating, and that competitiveness, that you know, there’s a little healthy competition can be healthy, a little healthy competition can be healthy, a little competition in the workplace can be healthy. But when it gets to the point that it’s obstructing the path of collaboration, then that’s, that’s where you’re killing the magic. That’s where you’re killing the dynamic of your team that can be beneficial to your consumer, that can be beneficial to your organization, and you’re not going to higher levels. You are stagnant at that point. If you’re lucky, you’re stagnant.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. The advantage also of bringing in somebody external, is it it does raise the sense of urgency a little bit more. And I would imagine, and so I’d be curious to hear, you know, you had the experience internal versus the experience external, that it might, it might create more accountability because, you know, I don’t know, maybe, again, let’s use HR, right. HR is often often brought in to mediate, to help dispute, to help people navigate their employee relation issues, right, whether they’re trained in it or not, that they’re often the first line of defense or the first group that people are going to –

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
But see how challenging that is?

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, somebody in –

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
Because HR. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off. But –

Sarah Noll Wilson
No, keep going. No, you can interrupt.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
That’s so challenging for all involved. It’s challenging for all involved because HR is also the repository of discipline. Right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, right.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
Like when I come in, I don’t have any power for – you know, I can make recommendations. But you know, it’s really hard to be the person who is kind of the arbiter of all things. So I’m the decision maker. I’m also the fact finder. I’m also the investigator. (laughs) So how open are you going to be? You know, how much are you going to be invested in a process with a person who, you know, can can turn right around and use that in a punitive way?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, right. Yeah. And then you bring in your own bias, right, you bring in your own bias, like you may have opinions, you know, whereas if you’re an external, you’re like, you’re, you’re, you’re Joe and you’re Tasha and this is what I know about you. And I have no skin in the game other than this. I really, man I wrote down and underlined and starred, “My client is resolution.” When, so when is your book coming out? When are we gonna be putting all of this great insight into a book? And or how can I help make that that’s just a side note. Okay, wait, we need to get back to the structure. I’m focusing my brain. So okay, so let’s, let’s get back to strategy, like talk to us about the formal process that you go through as a mediator.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
The formal process is the same way you have a policy for when people call out of work, you’re not saying that you want them to get sick, but you know that it’s the possibility. So what’s the strategy? What’s the, what’s the process for how do people call out of work? And if they’re out of work who do they call? What’s the call in procedure? And when they’re out what’s the out of out of office message? I mean, think about all of the things that we effectuate a plan for, that we don’t want to happen. But we know that could happen. And ask yourself, okay, so now if two employees have an issue, if my kids have an issue, and here’s a big one, if I have an issue with my partner, how are we going to contend with that? I mean, for a brief time, many, many years ago, I was a relationship coach, and I would, I would, I was amazed at how many times I would ask people like, “Okay, so what do you do when you fight?” Right? And it’s always, “We don’t fight we’re in love.” Like, you got to fall in love without fighting ever. Okay. Right. Like what you said earlier. Like, yeah, red flag, red flag.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
But eventually, you’re gonna disagree on something. Right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
And so how do you plan for it? You planned an entire wedding, with 300 people coming in from six states and two countries. You navigated in-laws, and who gets whose pet and which side of the bed, you’ve navigated all of that, and you don’t have a strategy for when inevitably, this dude pisses me off how I’m going to contend with it. You plan to, you have a career plan, and you have planned for everything, you have filled out countless forms, and you have not developed a strategy, I’m going to be someplace for four years, for three years. How am I going to contend with this? So I would say what’s the strategy for organizations? It’s to develop a plan, put it put it down the same way you have a plan for – I hope you have a safety plan. I hope you have a business continuity plan, I hope you have a plan for when so and so is out sick. You know, if you have one person doing your payroll, I hope you have a plan for if she gets hit by a bus, if you know if he falls over a chair or you know he wins a million dollars and says forget this job, I hope you have a plan for that. As an organization, you should have a plan for how you’re going to contend with possible conflict. And that conflict needs to be looked at as possible from all levels, it is not just an employee issue, as best as possible, if you are the person in leadership, that has to lead you need to be invested enough in conflict resolution to plan for it to advocate for it, which are two different things. You can plan for it and not advocate for it. So advocate for it is telling people one that it is okay if they have an issue. It does not mean okay – I mean, how many times have we heard you two have an issue? Figure it out, work it out. Okay, that’s not advocating for conflict resolution. (laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
You better get along, I heard I heard the leader once say, you gotta get along, or you’re going to get along, like, you got to get together or you’re going to be moving along and it was just like, figure it out.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
Yeah, that’s not exactly a leader. That’s a manager. Right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
So yeah, for organizations, you want to develop a strategy for what you’re going to do. You know, I always say, for higher level – now, you’re not calling an external mediator for like, you know, little stuff like someone threw my coleslaw out. You know, I had some leftover coleslaw from Jack and the Box and someone threw it out, and hey, I want the mediator to come in, that’s unwise, right? If you need someone externally to handle every single issue that’s coming up in your organization, then you have another set of issues that needs to be contended with. But for major things, there should be a high level plan, just like using our plane metaphor, again, you know, if there’s a little, you know, crack or something, there’s a strategy for how I’m going to contend with that, that is not immediately we’re going to land the plane into a crash landing, because there’s a crack on one window, right. But if we blow two engines, and we’re we’re cruising on one, then that requires a different mode of response. And then the other thing that I talked about earlier, I just want to reiterate how important it is to, to expect and to allow yourself grace, to have internal conflict, right? To recognize that that is a reality, that’s a possibility. And then to give yourself the grace to name that. Be courageous enough to name it, to acknowledge that it’s a reality, and to be okay with that, you know, to not just and to not just be okay with it, but accept it, and be and be willing to say I am entitled to feel what I feel.

Now, the more you do that, as you evolve as you grow, that entitlement might change, right? The things that I felt entitled to be really upset about at 20. I don’t even think I have the energy to be upset about now. (laughter)

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. (laughs)

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
You know, and I’ve told this story so many times, you know, you know, whatever I do, like I talk to young women and stuff I talk about, you feel what you feel now, and it’s valid now. But just understand, you can only see the part of the balloon, you can see, right? The things that are so important at this point in your life, I promise you, some of them will still be important in 20 years, but some of them, some of the people, some of the issues, some of the things, you’re not even going to remember half of these people’s names. But at that point, the thing that you can do to really alienate someone in that in that moment, whether it’s another person or yourself is to not allow them the validity of their own feelings. Right. You know, that’s, that’s ridiculous. Well, no, that’s ridiculous to me now. Right? If I was talking to 20 year old me, I probably would say that’s ridiculous. But you know, what, if I told 20, if someone had told 20 year old me, something she was feeling at that moment when tears were streaming down her face, and she thought it was the (pretend crying) end of the world at the time. (cries and catches breath) You know, because it’s not – you really don’t hurt until you get that last (catching breath sound) –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
When you totally lose your breath, right? At that moment, if you told me then, that it was ridiculous. I’m shutting down.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
And so the opportunity we had to advocate for the client, which is conflict resolution is now gone. And if it’s not gone, it’s much farther away.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. What, you know, what, what are what are some of the things that people can do? Or try to do? You know, like, I love this idea of like, what’s the plan? And, and I’ve never seen it in practice. And, and I’m reflecting on how valuable it would be. Now I’ve seen it in practice – I’ve seen it in practice with like, like my relationship with my husband, he and I have are like, this is like this is how we approach it. This is what we’re going to try to do. This is what we’re going to try to not do. So what are some of the – what are what are some of the like best practices when you think about creating that plan?

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
Well, can I can I can I respond to the first part of that first?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, please.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
That was so good. You said, you said – let me make sure I heard what you said correctly. You said in response to what I said about the plan, developing the plan, you said I’ve never seen that in action. And here’s what I think. Here’s here’s my position on that. We do see that action, in action every day. We see it in action in our government. We see it in action in in law enforcement. We see it in action in our legal system. We do have a plan for how we handle conflict. The question has to be is that the plan that we want to go with for everything, right? Our military has a whole plan for responsive action.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Such a great point. Such a great point. Yeah.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
We have a strategy, collectively as a society, this person does this. And so the responsive action is this. The problem is when everything, again with you know, another, you know, well worn cliche, but when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, right? If if we are in a linear adversarial approach to conflict, and anything that is not anything that does not feel good to us in that moment, or does not agree with our perspective, in that moment, is labeled conflict, because we haven’t spent the time, done the work or planned for the introspection to be able to name feelings, name and identify positions, so that anything that is adverse to what we think in that moment is conflict. And we only have one strategy of response, which is bop it over the head. You’re right, I’m, you’re wrong. And I’m right. That is a system. Right, that is a strategy.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, for sure.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
What I’m suggesting is develop, interrogate your current systems of conflict, because no one gets to our age, right, without having conflict resolution strategies. My question is, do you like conflict resolution strategy?

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
Is it a good one, right? Because we have them. For years, mine was ice cream. And then then I got really, you know, sophisticated and it elevated to gelato. I’m mad at you. So I’m gonna pack on an extra three pounds, right. And it came – my conflict strategy, conflict address strategy wasn’t a resolution strategy, but my addressing my strategy to address conflict, was to internalize my feelings by eating. And then it was working a whole lot. Right? So we all have strategies. It’s just do we have good ones? (laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
So to answer your question, the secondary part of your question, what are the best practices, interrogate your current strategies, interrogate your current structures, identify for yourself, okay, what do I do when I get really angry? How do I – do I like that? And you can’t wait until you’re mad to do that.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Right.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
Just like you can’t wait until the plane is going down to start, now, what did she say about? What did he say about something supposed to fall? It’s too late at that point. Which reminds me, it’s time for us. It’s February, it’s time for us to check our fire extinguishers in the house. (laughter) But yeah, you don’t wait until you’re like I smell smoke. I wonder for fire extinguishers work? Too late now, get out. (laughs) And that’s usually the strategy we employ. Right? It’s on fire –

Sarah Noll Wilson
One hundred percent.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
We don’t have a plan for how we’re going to deal with it. So we just hightail it out of there. And not every relationship, can we just hightail it out of there. So we’re sitting there burning with the issue to you know, kind of stretch that metaphor out of it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, that I mean, I mean, that’s such a great, it’s such a great point. You know it reminds me of the, like I, I will often say no systems dysfunctional, it’s set up to get exactly the result it’s getting, like it’s functioning exactly how it was built to get the results it’s getting. And that idea of even just naming like, what – let’s interrogate our strategy and our plan, because like whether you’ve paid attention whether you were intentional about it, whether you’ve thought about it, you’re right, you do you do, you do have a strategy of how you meet the moment as somebody who has been working like the last 10 years to really overcome my own conflict avoidance, my strategy was pouting, resentment, passive aggressive, right. Or internalized doubt. Fear/fawn, like it was either passive aggressive fight response, or it was a fawn response. And, and I love that I love that invitation because the thing that is also coming up for me, is like every system is different. And so the needs might be different, or the length – I mean, so so here’s what I’m coming through in my head. So again, put some guardrails, on on my thinking. But every system is different. The needs are different, the languages that would resonate and the thing that the thing that we know about human systems is that one, people are more likely to commit to something they actually helped create. Right? If I helped create the system in the structure, then I’m going to feel more ownership and I’m going to be more likely to do this instead of having somebody external say, well, here’s the ways that you navigate that. And I’d love that even as a practice to build the muscle of yeah and even in interrogating the system, we might disagree. And like, I mean, I’m getting like meta, like meta observation here. But there’s value to even that of – so even as we’re navigating, creating, what’s our system? What’s our strategy? What are we going to try? Is that I mean, am I thinking about it based off of your experience? Or, or are you like, no, there are like, really five things that we always need to make sure we cover, that needs to be part of every plan?

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
No. So we talked about, you know, developing the strategy, we talked about the courage, and I think that’s important, because this is, anytime you’re digging around in yourself, you’re tinkering under the hood, of your own mind and your own heart. It requires a certain courage component. Right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
And then understanding those power dynamics, setting your foundations and your boundaries. You know, as I said, not not everything. Not everything is can we can just talk it out.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Right.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
I, you know, I’m a survivor, for example of domestic violence. Now we can talk about how we navigate you know, life going forward. But we are not going to have a discussion on whether or not it was okay for you to slap me up on the refrigerator. Certain things are not to be to be mediated.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
But that’s why it’s so important to kind of set those – interrogate those internal feelings, and then be okay with, this is how I feel. And this is why I feel this, and this is okay, point blank, period, end of conversation. You put certain things in a box that these are the sacred things. Now, these other things, I’m willing to, okay, you know, perhaps I didn’t do that well, perhaps I could have handled that differently. Because I’m going to be honest enough to give the grace that I want to receive, right. But as long as I can be honest with myself, and I can love myself and value myself enough to say these, these two things right here, these three things, these four things, these non-negotiables.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, right.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
And from an organizational perspective, it’s important that the organization set those set those parameters. That you put your floors and your walls in place – that these let you know – it is never okay for you, I don’t care what happened, it’s never okay for you to do x in this organization. So however we need to navigate it, we can talk about why that happened. And the steps that led to that and how we can avoid it in the future, we can design that together. But we have to at least own that this is counter to what this organization stands for, which again, requires that internal that introspection, the same way it happens in a person it needs to happen, you know, in a couple. It should happen in friendships, in relationships, in business partnerships, you need to be looking internally, you know, what are we about? Why are we about this? Why do we work well together? What do we do well together? What do we not do well together? Those are the kinds of things that are gonna prepare you for when there’s a difference of position. So you can be clear on whether or not it’s a difference in position, or a difference in personhood? You know what I mean?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Mm hmm. Yeah, it’s, I mean, I mean, one of the things that I’m reflecting on is, and I, and I really, I really appreciate, and I’m grateful for your focus on that internal reflection, and owning and clarifying and essentially like, establishing like, what do you need, you know, speaking as a woman, that can be really difficult, right, like society kind of conditions us to defer, to nurture, to take care of other people. And, you know, and the reality is, is that we know that most issues in relationships come down to, like, I have a need that’s not being met, I have a value that’s been like – we’re in conflict of values. It’s, you know, it’s one of the one of the stats I really love from the Gottman Institute, which is, like almost 70% of all conflict between people is perpetual. It’s just a difference of values, difference of prospectives, differences of needs and what you know, which, which is a good reminder, especially when we’re in the zero sum, right, wrong mindset. Like that’s not– one, it’s not healthy. It’s not accurate. In some cases, right? There’s some cases where it is just like, no, this is this is wrong or this is harmful. But in helping people – so I appreciate the fact that that’s an important part of how you approach the work and how you’re inviting us to approach that work. Because it, I mean, it’s like the root of when there’s challenges is because I have a need that’s not being met. And if I haven’t taken the time to identify that need and name that need, then I don’t even you know, like, I can’t even see the conflict separately. I just know I’m pissed. Right? So that’s just something that was coming up for me.

Identify, name and one more.

Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, please do.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
And accept. You have to advocate, you have to accept an advocate for that need. So you identify it. You named it. But then you can’t be mealy mouthed about it. That’s where that courage comes in. You can’t be like, well, yeah, I really don’t like – like, for me, one of the things that’s like, a huge deal breaker, I mean, to know me is to know I don’t like to be spoken to roughly. Now, it took me some time to interrogate why that is and yeah, there’s some issues in my childhood. But you can say a lot of things, you can get a lot out of me until you speak that offhand comment that offhand, just just get it done! You know, whereas you know, that whole duck rolled off a duck’s back, it’s not gonna roll off my back. Right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
Now, because I have done the work and it took a lot of years. Because I have done the work and I know that, I’m not saying I avoid conflict, but I can, I can more quickly and adeptly handle it, when I see it coming because I know that’s an area that is a vulnerability for me. And I know, that’s an area that I have identified, okay, I need to live my life in a way that I don’t have to be exposed to people who feel comfortable talking to me in this way, because I do not accept it. I am not, I don’t operate in my zone of genius when I’m spoken to this way. It undermines you know, the validity of who I believe myself to be. And it’s in congruent with with myself perception. And then so when there’s incongruence, right, and things don’t line up, things are falling down all over the place. But I had to identify that and then I identified it, I named it, but it took another few years before I was like and dammit, I deserve that. I deserve to not spoken to that way. I have done the work, I put myself in a position where I know that if I give you work, it is good work. And so in every aspect of my life, and when I don’t, I deserve the grace to remediate whatever I have not done so well. But either way, I don’t like to be spoken to roughly. And so I can address those kinds of conflicts more quickly, more adept, because I already know that’s coming. That’s the advantage of doing that kind of work. But you have to be courageous enough to name it and advocate for yourself. Advocate for your organization. When you identify, oh, no, here, whether it’s your household, whether it’s your marriage, whether it’s how you interact with your kid, that’s not something we do. I don’t care what anyone else does with their kid. But for me and my kids, this is how we interact. You got to advocate for it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
No, I – you’re you’re giving language to something I’ve experienced personally. Of that clarity of nope, that’s not how that’s not that’s not how I’m going to show up in my relationships anymore. Right? Like, that’s not, that’s not how I’m going to, you know, like, again, as I’ve been on this journey of untangling some, you know, major trauma responses, especially for me, the challenge is very much that fawn response that is a very strong response for me. And, and, and what what is the life that I want? And what are the kinds of relationships I want? And, and I appreciate this really just like beautiful framework to think about it because you’re giving language to something that I’ve that I’ve experienced recently, you know, Nick, and I’ve had moments where we’re like, yeah, we’re not gonna, we’re not, we’re not – in our most like important relationships we’re not just going to pretend like something harmful didn’t happen, because that’s not how we want to show up. And that’s not the kind of relationships we want. And that’s not how we want to be treated. And that’s not how we want to treat other people. And so I just, it’s a real gift, because you’re, I’m reflecting on some evolutions in my own life of looking at it through this lens of like, right, yeah, no. Having that courage to like, lean into it, get clear about it, name it. And then you’re right, because (chuckles) it has gotten easier in moments when that happens, to have the conversation, and to not be afraid of having the conversation, and to be, you know, and also to be willing to potentially step away if the situation is like, if you know, we can’t negotiate or navigate that because this like, these are non-negotiables. It’s –

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
But everyone has the same language. So it’s not, you’re not doing it again, to pull the metaphor, you’re not building the parachute. Once you see the parachute pulled out, pulled out, if you’ve gone through the drills, everyone sees the parachute and so they already know kind of what’s happening in that moment, right? So you turning your back, you know, so to speak, may not be – would not be perceived the same way because it’s kind of understood. All right, well, yeah, we, you know, when she gets, you know, her parachute on, and so she has to bend over, she has to do that, you know, when you have strategies in place, and you’ve already had the discussion about, okay, here’s what we’re gonna do, here’s how we’re gonna handle this, here’s what the plan is. In that moment, when you’re already emotionally drained, when you’re already feeling vulnerable and attacked, to not have to then try to, you know, use the left brain and the right brain. Now I have to, you know, get out a ruler and try to figure out how to best construct this, you’re not at your highest self at that point. So how do you expect to construct a system that’s going to serve your highest self, when your highest self at that point is in hiding. Right? Because you feel under attack.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
And then, you know, let – before – because I know I’m just going on, but I want to,

Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, I’ll take you as long as you’ll stay and hang out. And I also feel bad, and I hope there’s fresh popcorn waiting for you. I mean, there is a bit of me that’s like, I hope they left her some popcorn.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
Here’s what I think, though, I think this kind of thinking, and I know, this is what it was, for me, it was a really great opportunity for me to be intentional about what the work that I was doing in the workplace, was really informative of how I parented. Now, I am not saying I’m the parenting Guru, I am not. My kids probably gonna watch this and be like, I have some notes. (laughter) But I, because so much of what we’re dealing with so much of how we construct these strategies, whether they’re, you know, beneficial to us or not, are really constructed in childhood and early adulthood, right. And our interactions with the power structures in our lives, which for most of us is parents, and so like I said, you know, one of the things I had to be really intentional about was okay, this is how I’m going to show up with the kid. Right? He’s not a kid anymore. He’s a 20 year old. I still call him the kid. He’s not a kid. He’s just my kid. Right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
So this is, you know, I know that I was raised a certain way, you know, we’re not allowed to say, say certain things, we’re not allowed to have certain conversations. You’re not allowed to – and I don’t think anyone ever said, you are not allowed to tell me you’re unhappy with me,

Sarah Noll Wilson
No.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
That was never expressed to me. But it was understood, right. And so I had to be really intentional about kind of setting new structures that said, okay, if you’re upset with me, you’re allowed to go this far. This is what our dynamic is gonna be. And it can’t be the same dynamic you had when you were 10-years-old. Right? Because they understood one thing then, but when do we have a conversation that says, “Da ta da da!” You are no longer a child. And so our dynamic has changed. And now you can do this. Usually, that only happens when it happens. And when does it happen? When we’re arguing. And then you go too far (laughs) and then it’s like, “Ohh! How have you addressed? I am your mother! I am your father!” And then all kinds of you know, relational dynamics are now being thrown in with the whole poopy water of whatever the conflict was. And now we’re dealing all of that at the same time. And what I’m saying is, you know it’s going to happen, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
Love yourself and love that relationship and that relationship dynamic enough to say, you know, hey, you have just just like you know, Geico send you your notice and says, you know, we had coverage with you until March 31. But now it’s April 1, we’re just like, you know, you still got coverage. Right? We need to be doing the same things and be and be intentional about thinking ahead about how we want those relationships to look in season and out of season. When things are great, when things are not great. We need to be proactive about handling that and not seeing the presence of conflict as the absence of rectitude.

Sarah Noll Wilson
(pauses) You’re, you’re a gift and I am so –

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
Thank you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I, you know, I’m so glad that you responded to my last minute call last fall of, “Hey, who wants to hop on the line?” (laughter) I mean, this is I honestly, I’m gonna have to chew on this quite a bit. But there’s, there’s, there’s new, there’s a ton of new perspectives and language. But one of the things that’s coming up for me is because one of the things that I’ve recognized, and like our work and how I’ve you know, how do I how do I help people like me who are so conflict avoidant start to step into, and the first place in our practice is get real curious with yourself and get real curious about what is it that you need? And what is it that you’re feeling? So there’s so much similarities, but what I really like as a gift is there’s a deepening that’s happening for me, and some new connections that I’m making, that I was missing. But I hope you’re thinking about a book. If you aren’t, I just I think you have such a – it’s such a unique and refreshing and necessary perspective. And the man that gift of what do you want that relationship to look like when it’s in season and out of season? Again, we just don’t we don’t spend enough time being intentional about how do we want to show up, we just, it’s, you know, what did my colleague Teresa say today? She said it so much more articulately than I’m going to say it now. But basically, like we want, we want relationships that we can pop in the microwave for one minute and call her good. Instead of like, a smoker that we have to manage and we have to like, you know, nurture, and part of this as a client, we’re gonna be working with who, –

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
I would submit to Teresa, all of us need those microwave relationships, if every relationship in my life required depth and investment.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, for sure! Yeah, for sure.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
Oh, I don’t have time for that.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah, fair point.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
Some people I’m like, you know, girl, how are you? And I really want to know, and I’m willing to go back and forth with you. And we’re gonna, you know, if we have to deal with some things like I am there, like, girl, I am there. And then there are some people I’m like, Hey, how are you? Like an I really mean, like, as, as a platitude, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. No, no, that’s it’s a fair point.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
You said something that I hear people say often, both in personal the personal context and in the workplace. They say, We are conflict – we avoid conflict, or we’re conflict, we have a conflict avoidance issue. And I want to just put the parameters that that language we constructed together earlier around that, in the sense that let’s add, let’s append that, to include the word interpersonal or external.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
Because the conflict is not going anywhere. So you’re avoiding the conflict. You’re avoiding dealing with the conflict interpersonally. But the conflict is not going anywhere, you’re just carrying it on your weight, on your back. You’re just carrying that weight all by yourself. And the thing about it is, if you don’t cut it in half and open it up, you don’t know what’s inside. So imagine yourself and this is something that I do with my hubby. When I’m you know, having a little bit of a tantrum. I imagined myself carrying a really big backpack, but I don’t know what’s in the backpack. And I don’t know about anyone else, but the way I am. That would just drive me crazy. Like, you know how they say in the airport, what’s with all the travel stuff lately? (laughs) But you know, when they say me at the airport, you know, did anyone pack your bag for you? And that has always struck me. You know, are you carrying a bag that someone else packed for you? Like, would you walk through the airport carrying a bag someone else packed? But that’s what we do with conflict, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
When we don’t – when we recognize it to be the case we recognize the bag, but we don’t know what’s inside of it. And we’re not interrogating it when not opening it up and seeing what’s inside. So we’re just carrying it around. But there’s no such thing as avoiding conflict. It’s not like you’re saying, oh, that’s conflict, I’m gonna leave it over there. And I’m gonna go over there, and the conflict just stays over there. Nope, just hopping on your back and you’re just carrying it around. And quite frankly, sweetie, you got too much to do, like you have other stuff to do. You know, I’m gonna, I’m gonna quote Mother Lord and say, you know, if you want to fly, you gotta get rid of the shit that’s weighing you down.

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
You know, and you can’t do that. If you are carrying this stuff around that you won’t identify, you won’t confront. And you won’t be courageous enough to advocate for yourself, and the resolution of that conflict in service to the relationship so that you can soar. You got to get rid of the ship that’s weighing you down.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it all. I think that that is such a an important clarification. Because, you know, I mean, I – the reality is, we say avoiding conflict, but you’re not. It’s just getting displaced. Like it’s, it’s, you’re carrying it, it’s somewhere. And I think that, again, is such a, I have so many notes starred and underlined. You know, whenever I wrap up a show, I’m always like, here’s one thing I’m holding on to and be like, I don’t know. (shows papers) Here, I’m holding on to this. I’m holding on to this sheet of notes from our conversation.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
Wonderful.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Maxine, thank you. It’s always such a treat. It’s such a treat. Okay, so I know there are people out there who are thinking, I think we need an external mediator. I want to learn more about her services, or I want to connect with her. What are the best ways for people to connect with you?

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
I am on all the medias. I say that but there’s so many more now. (laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. So all of them? The main ones.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
I am on Instagram, you can pretty much just, you know, Instagram or Facebook is where you see me most of the time. Or you can email me I don’t have a problem giving people my email address. It’s Maxine @ attorneymaxine.com. So if you have a question or something like that, you know, go ahead and send me an email, Maxine @ attorneymaxine.com Or on the socials on Twitter at thislifetothemax. I’m on Instagram and Facebook at The Max View.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Love it. And we will put all of those links in the show notes and I highly recommend you connect with this incredible, incredible human. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

T. Maxine Woods-McMillan
Thank you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guests for the last two weeks has been attorney T. Maxine Woods-McMillan. And there are pages of notes that I am holding on to from our conversation. But the one that I want to reinforce for myself and maybe for some of you who are listening is that idea that we don’t actually avoid conflict when we don’t engage with it. It just shifts, it displaces, we reposition it to somewhere else. And that is that is a very, very powerful, powerful perspective. As always, we want to hear from you. What resonated with you? What came up for you? What became clear for you? And maybe you’ve interrogated your system of how you navigate conflict and learn something. You can send us a message at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson.com. You can also find me on social media, where my DMs are always open. And if you’d like to find out more about our work and how we can help your team have conversations that matter. Be sure to check us out at Sarah Noll Wilson.com. You can also pick up a copy of my latest book, Don’t Feed the Elephants! wherever books are sold. And if you’d like to support the show, which we greatly appreciate, please consider becoming a patron. You can do that by going to patreon.com / conversations on conversations where your financial support will support and sustain this team that makes this podcast possible. And you’ll get access to some pretty great swag. And if you haven’t already, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us be able to increase our exposure so we can continue to bring on amazing guests like T. Maxine Woods-McMillan.

A big thank you to the team that makes this show possible. To our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionists Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant ksn marketing and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. And just a big wholehearted thank you to Attorney Maxine. Just bringing lots of new perspectives and language and gifts for us to think about our relationship with conflict differently. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening near and far. And remember when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves or others we can change the world. So please my friends make sure you rest ,rehydrate and we’ll see you again next week.