Episode 047: A Conversation on People-First Leadership with Geoff Anderson

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Geoff Anderson as they explore Geoff’s approach to people-first leadership, and some of the experiences that have shaped him along his unique leadership journey.

About Our Guest

Geoff Anderson has earned a reputation as a strategic and driven General Manager with over 15 years of experience creating sustainable growth throughout the Co-operative Retailing System. Geoff has mentored executive leaders to help them reach their full potential through growth initiatives, diversification, and talent development. Geoff is guided by strong values and a belief in the importance of relationship-building. For the past four years, Geoff has led a team of professionals at the Moose Jaw Co-operative Association, experiencing revenue growth of 132.5% while giving back to the community in the form of their equity and cashback program. Last year, the Moose Jaw Co-op returned over $6.2 million in equity and cash back to Co-op members. He credits a strong, talented team with the organization’s success, as well as a company-wide focus on the corporate values of Excellence, Trustworthiness, Community, and People First. Geoff enjoys giving back to the community through his volunteer work as a member of the Moose Jaw Transition House Board and as Chair of the Downtown Moose Jaw Association. Geoff is also a devoted husband and father and is currently in training for a mountain climbing expedition.

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Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello, and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and with each other. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And I’m so so, so excited for our guest today, Geoff Anderson. And let me take a moment to talk about his background, his bio, and also why I’ve invited him on the show, because together we will be exploring, what does it look like to really be a human centered leader? How do we think about leadership from a perspective of being people first, and so I’m just really thrilled for you all to meet one of one of the favorite leaders that we get to work with. All right, so here’s a little bit about Geoff, I’m gonna, I’m making you uncomfortable is this, you know?

Geoff Anderson
A little. It’s all good.

Sarah Noll Wilson
So here’s what you should know about Geoff Anderson. He has earned a reputation as a strategic and driven General Manager with over 15 years of experience creating sustainable growth throughout the cooperative retailing system. Geoff has mentored executive leaders to help them reach their full potential through growth initiatives, diversification and talent development. He is guided by a strong values and belief in the importance of relationship building. For the past four years, Geoff has led a team of professionals at the Moose Jaw Cooperative Association, which has experienced revenue growth of 132.5%, while giving back to the community in forms of their equity and cash back program. Last year, the Moose Jaw Co-op returned over 6.2 million in equity and cash back to the co-op members. He credits a strong talented team with the organization’s success, as well as a company wide focus on the on the corporate values of excellence, trustworthiness, community and people first. Geoff enjoys giving back to the community through his volunteer work as a member of the Moose Jaw Transition House board, and as chair of the Downtown Moose Jaw Association. He is a devoted husband and father and is currently training for a mountain climbing expedition. Welcome to the show, Geoff!

Geoff Anderson
Thanks for having me, Sarah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What else would you like our listeners to know about you?

Geoff Anderson
Well, I definitely come from a diverse background, I actually had the opportunity to move to a community called Iqaluit, Nunavut back in 2015. Which is way, way, way up in the Arctic. It’s actually on Baffin Island, we’re actually only about 500 miles from Greenland. And my very first job was in retail, believe it or not, working for the Hudson Bay Company in Iqaluit, which was formerly called the Frobisher Bay, Northwest Territories, and really had a great opportunity to meet all sorts of different diverse backgrounds all across Canada, whether that be the Inuit or the Metis, you know, people from different walks of life in Eastern Canada, as well as some of our cousins in the United States. Also, I had an opportunity to grow up with – in the Arctic. So it was, it was a great experience.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Thanks for sharing that. I, you know, I was struck, actually, before I get into how we know each other and why I’ve invited you on the show. You know, typically, when you read someone’s bio, it’s like, here’s what I’ve done. And here’s, here’s how I do it. And what I appreciate, which I feel like just validates how we’ve observed you showing up is, you know, you talk about how this, you credit the strong, talented team to the organization’s success as well as the focus on values. The, you know, obviously, for people who are listening know that we’re in the space of leadership development, we always lovingly say, we want to help leaders people better. And we first connected with Geoff, through an event that we were at that we were facilitating, and I don’t even completely remember all of the conversations you and I were having at break. But you were using language that I had never heard from someone else who is in position of power and authority that we’ve had the chance to work with, not saying that it’s never been said, but I had never experienced that. You were using phrases like suffering and mindfulness. And I mean, you might remember some of the conversations explicitly than I do.

Geoff Anderson
I do, I do.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Do you? Yeah, what were some of the things that we talked about?

Geoff Anderson
Well, I think what we said during the break is you were exploring this this aspect of our brain called the amygdala and you were exploring with the CEO group and general manager group, how you know human beings have evolved from from constantly searching for predators like the saber toothed tigers, to now more looking for corporate threats around us on a regular basis, and challenging the CEOs and GMs out there, how you can start using your prefrontal cortex, that front part of your brain to explore different viewpoints and different perceptions through questions and I think what really struck me as interesting is, and hopefully you’re okay with, with me sharing that as I think as an executive, we deal with people from all walks of life. But there’s usually one common thread is that from the time we wake up until the time we go to sleep every night, we are suffering to some degree. And that suffering usually stems from constantly watching out for dangerous or threats, whether they be to our family, our colleagues, our business, what other people think about us is usually where a lot of us spend most of our time is, what perception am I giving off to those other individuals I interact every day. And we’re constantly reminding ourselves how, how we’re not good enough. And that we always have to do better. And so any way that I can help take some pain away from the team that, that I have the fortunate ability to lead, I’m going to want to do that. Because I think living in that constant state of worry and suffering can be ended. And I think it starts with being mindful, and doing some work on self awareness and those kinds of things. And some of the things you teach, like emotional intelligence, I think, for our new leadership crop is so timely and so unnecessary. When I started off in retail, when you know, 1990, I was 15 years old, it was very top down driven, it was very much like old school hockey, right, where you didn’t ask for somebody’s opinion, you gave them the opinion, and, and you really didn’t collaborate with your direct, direct report, it was you were just waiting for the next set of orders. And I even started my career leading that way. And, you know, because I thought that’s how you lead people. And, you know, one of the questions that I think you had asked that, hopefully you ask me today, which is, you know, can you think of one monumental story that, that transition you into becoming a leader or a better leader, and I certainly have a story I’d love to share with you. But I don’t want to just keep rambling either, so.

Sarah Noll Wilson
No, this is okay. So just to like, I’ll pause you there, and people who are listening, you can you can already understand why why we’ve invited Jeff on the show. And what I can also share is that sometimes, sometimes we can say the right words, we can say, really meaningful things. But our actions don’t always match that. And we have done some extensive interviewing and data gathering, that we’ve seen firsthand the stories and the impact on the culture that Geoff has been creating, and so intentional about creating with his colleagues that this isn’t lip service, you know, not just only the financial success that the organization has had and the rapid pace of growth. But so I just want to, you know, offer that perspective, from the standpoint of Geoff isn’t just somebody who’s like, yeah, this sounds good, (laughs) you know, and I’m not actually going to walk the talk. And the thing that that we were really struck by is, and honestly, we’ve had the conversation as the team of what would be possible if we had more people in positions of power and authority, asking the question, “What can we do while we have people in the workplace to reduce suffering that they’re experiencing?” You know, I mean, I remember when that first came out, in some conversations you had with my colleagues, and they shared that it was like, that’s so different than maybe other things we hear like, suck it up, buttercup, and people should just be happy they have a job and right, like some of those behaviors, so I am curious to know of what you know. So what was your journey? Because I appreciate you sharing like, yeah, you were raised in an environment that most of us are raised in, from a corporate perspective, or from a work perspective of it’s very hierarchical, it’s very patriarchal. It’s very, right. Like, you don’t want to get too close to your team members, because you might have to fire them. Right? Your – the relationships are largely transactional, not transformational. So what, what are the things that shaped you? Because you’ve had such an interesting career and journey, from when you were 15 to now? What were some of the things that really shaped your perspective on leadership?

Geoff Anderson
Well, I think certainly, I’d moved through the ranks of a department manager, division manager, I had my first posting as a general manager in a small community called Davidson, Saskatchewan, and, you know, great team of of individuals and my leadership style, unfortunately, in Davidson was horrible. I had been taught that, you know, you’re the answer key for everything in the organization. That you should be the one that knows everything about what’s going on. And if you don’t, there’s a problem. And, you know, I took it upon myself going into that first executive role, you know, barking orders and pointing fingers and saying you’re not doing this and you’re not doing that. And, you know, how come you know how come this area over here hasn’t been cleaned up and I was constantly looking at things from from a negative lens. And that very dictatorial I guess. And there was a gentleman by the name of Larry Dwek, he was, at the time working in file maintenance and he had been there for probably 25 years. And he was a little bit older than I was, and certainly wiser. And I came to work on a, you know, on a Tuesday morning at eight o’clock, and, and he said, “Hey, I’d like to talk to you for a second.” I said, “Okay, well, you know, I’ll close the door and what’s going on?” He said, “I really haven’t liked coming to work lately.” And I said, “Oh, why?” And he says, “Well, if I can be totally honest, it’s because of you.” And that was was definitely a punch to the gut. And, and then I started asking some exploratory questions as to why. And, you know, he taught me team leadership, or at least started me on that leadership journey, where I started looking at things differently. So obstacles and challenges that we’re facing our retail were always easier to overcome by involving the team and asking for what solutions they could brainstorm and come up with. And once we came to a consensus, I started leading the organization that way, and started learning from those individuals that had more experience than I had. That had certainly better leadership experience than I did. And it started me on my leadership journey to become better at managing people and, and lead – not even managing people leading people. Managing an archaic word, but leading those individuals and learning from them. And it’s something that certainly carried me to Moose Jaw to this day.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s, I mean, what a, what a great example of the fact that we can make impact any anytime. And Larry Dwek was that his name? Did I catch that?

Geoff Anderson
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, for him to have the courage to, to speak up and to share that because, you know, we’re doing some, we’re doing some work right now, and I’m giving and receiving feedback. And it’s not easy to give feedback to somebody who has authority over you. It’s not always safe. And that’s, that’s under sort of the best circumstances, then you add in additional power dynamics, like if I’m the only woman on the team, or if I’m a person of color, and my manager as a white person, and the complexity, – the risk, the risk and the calculations become higher. Right. And then and then the courage for you, though, to receive it, because I can I can imagine, because I’ve observed it, that conversation going very differently. Right.

Geoff Anderson
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know. And so, so what, you know, like, I’m, you know, as you think about your journey as a leader, and that, that being a trans – like a pivotal point of, hmm. What were some of the things that you had to shed, or let go of like, because there are rules, their rules we’re taught about how to exist at work, and what relationships at work and what power dynamic, right? Like, what is managing people look like? What were some of the beliefs or rules that you had to let go of, or shed on your journey to, to being the leader that you’re trying to be now?

Geoff Anderson
Well, I think I had to learn that, you know, more more people in a room will make better decisions every day of the week. If you can get 10 individuals, it doesn’t necessarily have to be the 10, 10, senior leaders of your organization, pick any 10. And if you ask the right questions, you’ll come up with better solutions together. And I think that was a pivotal point for me. And I think shedding a little bit of my own ego as thinking I was maybe the most intelligent person in the room, number one. Secondly, that I’m not the answer key to the organization. That if, if I allow people to help me, and I can help them do their best, that will run a better organization. And so I think, shedding my ego a little bit and and realizing that, you know, I wasn’t as good as I thought I was, and that I can learn a lot from people that have more experience. And certainly in Larry’s case, the right approach to leading people and listening to him. And I think that was the other part of it is actively listening. And it took me on a journey there to change my approach to how I worked with people.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, no, I love that. I really appreciate the language you’re using of the answer key. I’ve never, I’ve never heard it described that way, but they’re very much is a combination I think of the pressure we put on ourselves if we’re in a formal leadership role, that I have to have the answers. Now part of it too is largely the people we promote are the ones who have the like technical answers, not the ones who can create an environment of collaboration and consensus building and bringing together diverse thoughts and diverse perspectives. And, and then sometimes there’s also then the expectations from team members that you have the answer keys. So it’s, you know, as when I, when I’ve thought about my leadership journey or individuals that we’ve worked with, not only is it a recalculating or shedding of expectations that you – beliefs that you hold personally, but it’s also navigating, changing the cultural expectations that other people may have of you. Was that something that as, as you’ve been on your evolution of how do we include more people? How do we? How do I really set them up for success? How do I lean into their their gifts? What kind of challenges did you face in sort of rewriting that narrative, whether it was from colleagues, whether it’s from your superiors, whether it was from team members, because I could imagine that there might be some challenges that would come up with that.

Geoff Anderson
There were certainly and I can speak for Moose Jaw Co-Op, which I came to Moose Jaw Co-Op, in 2019, February of 2019, they had just gone through a labor disruption. So they’d had a strike for just about seven weeks. So employee engagement was was in the tank, it was it wasn’t doing very well. So as an observer coming on to the Moose Jaw Co-Op, I started kind of watching and learning from from the individuals that I’ve now been tasked to lead. And what I found was is that every decision in the organization had been made by one or two people, either the general manager or the controller. And I knew that with such a large, diverse organization, and we just purchased a brand new agronomy center and we’re really changing how we did business and Moose Jaw. It certaintly became more a complex retail. And I knew I needed to develop a team in order to support the organization. A lot of that work, I guess, developing that team, was really educating, re-educating myself and re-educating my team on what are our expectations? What are we, what’s expected of us. And one of the things that I think, probably surprised a few of my team members, when I talked about this is letting them know that I’m going to stop making decisions for the company, and that they’re going to have to start making them. And that I’m only one individual and having every decision from the ground floor right up to the top of the organization, I don’t have the ability to be there for every one of those decisions. And that I started working on empowering them to make decisions, providing they knew that they had a safe space to make those decisions. And that I expected, I expected them to learn as opposed to fail. And I think that that’s a bit of a change in language is that mistakes were encouraged, because that’s how we’re going to continue to grow. And having that their trust, I guess, to be able to make some decisions for the company, know that I have their back and know that we’re going to make some, some stumbles along the way. And that’s how we’re going to actually become better. I think giving them that freedom to be able to do that certainly helped in our journey here at the Co-Op. And when – I use a lot of words like we as as, as do all great leaders. But “we” are running the company, I would say if anything, my senior leadership team is running the company. I’m working on things that continue to grow outside the organization. And by allowing that space for them to grow and develop and make some decisions is why I think we’ve seen the growth that we’ve had.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I there’s there’s there’s so much I love and what you were sharing. I think that I expect that there are people who are listening who will resonate either because they are that one or two person and maybe they’re pausing and going maybe that’s a problem. (laughs) And, and or they work in an organization where they aren’t you know, I think that one of the gosh, one of the challenges we often see is a gap between what people say they that it is important to them versus what’s really important to them. Right. So I’ve never, I’ve never met anyone who’s like no people can’t fail, like, and yet their behavior is why did we do that? Right? Pulling the plug on an experiment before we’re ready to or whatever the case might be. And what you know, so what were some of the what were some of the changes that you observed in the team shifting because I would I would imagine and appreciate that some of them existed under the old guard so to speak. Right?

Geoff Anderson
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And that and sometimes when something new comes in, it can be really common for people to be skeptical? Like, I know you say this, I know you say this. And I don’t know if that was true with the team that you support.

Geoff Anderson
It was.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Was it? Yeah. So talk to me about, yeah, just what was that process like? What was – what were some of the conversations like during the transition?

Geoff Anderson
Well, I think, you know, certainly, when, when I was hired for this role, again, I’d said there was the general manager who was kind of the CEO of the company. And then the controller, which was kind of second in command. And probably the hardest change from an org structure review was was now that controller, having a team of individuals that were on equal playing field was, and having to change kind of that individual contributor mindset to that of a team mindset. And we certainly, you know, part of it was education, we had, we’d done some work on The Five Behaviors of a Cohesive Team, which is a Patrick Lencioni model. But we’d had a third party organization come out, work with our team for a couple of days. And, you know, the probably the biggest hurdle was having cohesive conflict within our team, where you talk about issues and not actual individuals. And that shift, I think, once we were able to kind of let down our guard and have some really honest, open conversations about things that maybe were a conflict for the organization. And we get past egos and that kind of thing. We say, “Hey, we’re not talking about you not liking, you know, somebody across across the table from me. We’re talking about, maybe a varying opinion on a particular issue, so that we can come to the best solution together.”

So that has been a journey as well. But I think – it took a lot of coaching and a lot of a lot of work, I think, for our team to get there. And we’re not, we’re not done yet. We’re still trying to like, how can we prepare ourselves for the next 5, 10, 15 years, as we continue to grow, and I’m always very fearful of burnout and fearful of people taking on too much. And part of it – I appreciate all of the kind words that you had said to me, Sarah, about my leadership style, the downside of my leadership style, if I can talk to it is people – the freedom to chart their own course and work on their own goals and actions and initiatives with their team is great. But people have a tendency when they chart their own course, is to take on too much.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.

Geoff Anderson
Because they think that’s that’s expected.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.

Geoff Anderson
And – words that usually never will come out of my mouth is, your you’re not doing enough.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Geoff Anderson
Or, I want to see more. It’s usually, “Hey, are you spending time with your family? Are you getting an opportunity to take holidays? Are you? Are you getting a good night’s sleep every night or are you staying up till three o’clock in the morning and worrying about this place?” So that is the downside to that is if I had delegated every one of their actions on our strategic plan and said, This is what you’re, you know, this is what I want you to accomplish this year, I don’t think we’d be as successful. The caveat to that is so by allowing people to create their own space to grow and develop and hit their milestones, through their own actions, and through their own teams is great. But they set the level of expectations for themselves.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.

Geoff Anderson
Although they think I’m the one doing it. I’m forever trying to talk them off the ledge that they’re taking on too much. And I’m not saying that to say that my level of expectation isn’t high. It certainly is. But they’ve made – they continue to move the bar each and every year, with the work they’ve been able to perform for this organization. It’s absolutely outstanding what they’ve been able to do it, it boggles my mind, because it’s not me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I mean, it’s, you know, it’s – no, I appreciate you sharing that, because when you are trying to create that culture of collaboration, part of what we’re creating is a culture of ownership. Right.

Geoff Anderson
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and, and I would, I would imagine, too, that there could be a sense of, “Am I doing enough?” Right? Because if again, if you’ve been conditioned most of your career, that you probably aren’t doing enough that you know, because I it’s forever the phrase, how do we do more with less? Right? Over and over and over, and then to be met with the expectation of, yeah, we want to do better and we want to do more but not at the expense of you. As a person and you know, even again, the language you use and the questions you check in with, isn’t – it isn’t just about how are they accomplishing their tasks? It’s about them as a whole person. “Hey, are you spending time with your family? Are you resting? Are you?” You know, if you if you know, – When you think about this idea of being a human centered leader, what do you think are some of the most important conversations that, like, what are some of the most important conversations you’re having with yourself as a leader, and that you think that somebody should be having with their team members based off of your experience?

Geoff Anderson
That’s a great question. Well, I think with you know, and I like that term, Human Centered Leadership, you know, when I go back to our, our purpose as an organization, when I, when I’d started in 2019, I knew the Moose Jaw Co-Op had a vision. And you know, that vision is we will be the community leader by putting people first in the delivery of value and excellence. And that vision where I honed in on two key words, which I’m very repetitive about, and we speak to people, first, our people first value on a regular basis. But probably the simplest conversation that I have with individuals that are new to our organization, that maybe haven’t worked for this company, is, you know, I usually start with a little bit of a game with them. And it’s usually a pump attendant that’s just starting with our company, usually 15 or 16 years old. And it’s their first job. And I always ask the question, “So if you picked up the phone and called the General Manager, you called me and you needed help. Who’s the customer?” And they kind of look at me weird. And they go, well, well, I’m the customer. And I’m like, okay, and how would you like to be treated if you were the customer? And they would kind of explain back to me, “Well, this is kind of how I’d like to be treated.” And I’m like, okay, that makes sense. And I said, “Now, if I picked up the phone and called you, and I needed help, who’s the customer?” And they’re like, “Well, you are.” And I’m like, “And should that experience be any different? Whether I’m helping you or you helping me?” And, and usually a light bulb goes off? And people go, “No, it should be the same experience.” I said, “Exactly. We all have different roles. We all have different responsibilities. But at its base level, we’re all people, and we are all equal. And how we’re treated should be the same, in my opinion, or it should be the same as far as the positive viewpoint.” And we lead that way, we’re here to help each other. That’s our sole purpose, nothing else. And if we can keep that in the back, in our back pocket, and remember that, not our title, not the fact that we have a higher role than someone else, or that we have a lateral role from someone else. But when anybody needs our help, we help them and that experience should always be consistent.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What would you say? Geoff, what would you say to somebody who’s listening to you right now going, that sounds great. I want that. That’s not where I’m at. Like, what? What advice would you give them? Somebody who’s in a situation that’s maybe more toxic, in a situation where they don’t feel valued, or seen or heard or respected? Or protected? To use our good friend, Tara Jaye. Frank’s model. Like what would you – because I – it’s not the norm, right. And you you know that? I mean, it’s not, it’s it’s, it’s or it’s, it’s more complicated, the bigger you get is one of the things we see is that a lot of times when we’re working with really small organizations, it can be easier to maintain that deep sense of collaboration and empathy and having each other’s back and being really intentional. And then something happens. You know, just as more layers get brought in, more bureaucracy gets brought in, that the company is growing, but you’re not, I mean, you’re not a small company, and in a couple of years, you’re going to be even larger than then you are now. What would you say to the people who are listening to this who are in a space that’s, that’s not like Moose Jaw?

Geoff Anderson
Well, I would think that, you know, for any individual that’s listening, you know, whether you are in a leadership role, or whether you’re part of a team, a senior leadership team, or otherwise, I think you have to have the courage to talk to somebody, and it’s usually your direct report. Or if you are the direct report, and you’re the CEO of a company, and you’re wondering why everything’s so dysfunctional, then I think you need to actually be open to honest feedback from your team. And you need to do your best to create a safe space in order to have that collaborative discussion. And that’s not always easy, and it might take more than one one pass with your direct report to actually get that feedback. It might start as you know, they’re not really giving me anything. –

Sarah Noll Wilson
So it must be good. (laughs)

Geoff Anderson
But, but – what’s that?

Sarah Noll Wilson
So it must be good. They didn’t say anything, so it must be good.

Geoff Anderson
Yeah. But I would say is I wouldn’t drop having those discussions and asking for that honest feedback until you get it. And maybe even having, you know, if you’re courageous enough is to have the entire team there and say, “Hey, here’s some things I want to work on with my own leadership development this year. And I’m going to be asking for your honest opinions, and I sure appreciate if you gave it to me, because here’s my vision of where I’d like to see this team.” And I always go back to purpose and vision. So if you can find, or maybe ask your team, like, if you could work on the most ideal team in the world, what would it look like? And based on their feedback, that should give you a good indication which direction you need to go as a leader. So I hope I’m answering this, but I think it starts with the conversation, Sarah, and I think it starts with being honest with the individual. And you might have to rehearse it. And you might have to talk to your coach or talk to your spouse about, hey, this is how I’m planning on delivering this message, or this topic. But I do think without that conversation, it’s going to be very difficult to to change –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Geoff Anderson
A negative experiance, for sure.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, I really appreciate the language of, you have to do multiple passes. Because we know, I mean we just know that our self awareness can decrease the more power and authority we have, because we just have fewer people being honest with us, because of the power dynamic. And I mean, that’s something I feel we’re a bit of a broken record, in our work with leaders is, I know think you’re just Geoff, like, I know, I know, you’re sitting here going like, but I’m just Geoff people can come in, my door is always open, right? They can just come in to talk to me and, and not thinking about, again, the formal power dynamics are at play. And they sure as hell are not thinking about the informal power dynamics that are at play, right? Like, oh, well, you know, we’re, we’re, we all can say whatever we want to say it was like, you’re all a team of white guys, and you have one woman on your team. And I promise you, she’s very aware that she’s the one. And so are we also paying attention to that, and the way that we overcome, right, that gap between what we intend to do is, we have to ask for it and create a culture of it, and we have to be willing to receive it. So I love that language of, it will take multiple passes. Like don’t assume because you didn’t get it, that there isn’t something to get (laughs that’s lurking under there. And and that moment, you know, we talk a lot about psychological safety, and how do you create that? Is that man those moments of feedback, like that moment, when that individual Louis Louis Dwek?

Geoff Anderson
Larry Dwek.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Larry, Larry Dwek, and it was, okay, Dwek. You know, that moment was a risk for him. But because you met it with curiosity, you met it with perhaps some compassion, even though I suspect I mean, you described it as a punch in the gut, I suspect that was really, really hard.

Geoff Anderson
It was.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and that moment of how you received it probably fundamentally shifted that possibility of the relationship with him of a higher level of trust. And I think we, just as whether we’re in a leadership position, whether even if as a team member, or even as a spouse, or a friend or a family member, that when somebody shares something hard with us, how we show up to that moment, sets a huge tone for, can you share other hard stuff with with me, and has a huge impact on our, our trust.

Geoff Anderson
Well, I think you hit on something very important is that you need to know these individuals, and you need to build a relationship with them. So that there is that psychological safety. And I’d even go as far to say, as sometimes that’s 80% of the conversation is, is the personal aspect of it, with 20% of it being work. And that’s how you get to know your team. And that’s how you get to know what’s going on in their lives. So and fundamentally know them as individuals. So I’m a big believer in and really getting to know my team, obviously, there’s all sorts of different styles out there. But had I not, the one thing I can say about the Larry Dwek story is there must have been something left over for him to go, you know, I can maybe trust him a little bit to give him this feedback. And, and thank gosh he did because it had he not you know, I might not be in the role that I’m in right now. And I wouldn’t have had the ability to to help other people become better leaders and, and, and do that, really the best job I’ve ever had, which is leading this organization. It’s a lot of fun.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s, uh 80% personal, 20% work is not the common percentages we tend to see, especially especially, you know, for organizations that are, have moved to hybrid or remote work, right, they’re challenged. And so then the conversations end up being even more transactional, because we miss those little moments of, of building those personal. I mean it. I no, I appreciate that. And, and again, I sit there and think, what would be possible – like what would be possible not only for work, but what would be possible in our community and how people felt and how they left work, feeling how they felt about themselves? If, if there was just so much more focus on how do I understand you, the individual and your needs and your challenges and understanding that your lived experience is very different than my lived experience. And how do I honor that and meet you where you’re at? And – yeah, I love I love all of that. What do you think people get wrong? When they get into leadership? I know you’ve already you’ve hit on some of them just through your own lived experience. But –

Geoff Anderson
Well, I touched on the answer key example.

Yeah.

But I do believe that, you know, a lot of a lot of CEOs and GMs out there think they still believe that, you know, the that really, they’re the decision makers for the company, that they’re the only one that should be the decision makers. And whereas, you know, I’ve taken more of the approach that we make team decisions together, that I’m one voice, obviously, I can be a tiebreaker. And I can say, well, I think this is ultimately the direction we need to go in. But I try not to do that. Because usually we can find consensus, providing we have enough questions answered, and we ask the right questions. But I think where where leaders get it wrong, is I think devaluing the, the power of the human relationship. I know that sounds really deep, but it’s so true. If I get to know you on a personal level, and I get to know your skill sets, I get to know your background, I get to know a little bit about your family and get to know who you are as a person. And I’m not saying this, but the more ability, I have to leverage your talent, and and, and it’s out there. So I think it’s a matter of getting to know those shining stars in a better light, so that you can just help them be the best that they can be.

I think the other part that leaders get it wrong is I don’t think they realize the negative impact they can have on others. I can’t remember the statistic, nor will I even pretend to remember it on your on your show. But you know that the negative, one negative interaction with your boss can throw your blood pressure, you know, through the roof. It can, it can, it can take hours before your cortisol levels get down to a normal, a normal level again, and the damage that can do to your cardiovascular system, I think is real. And so yeah, we got lots of health nuts in the world running five miles a day and doing everything they can to stay fit. But I would think that that, you know, negative leader that can cut, walk into somebody’s office and completely destroy them with a sentence should be mindful of what their impact is when they do converse with their direct reports. So I think that just be very careful, I guess, on on how you approach your team, and how you approach each individual. Because like I said, at the start of this interview, you know, I think we’re all suffering. We are all telling ourselves telling each other how, how less than we are and how we haven’t accomplished as much as we should have yesterday, and we’re constantly worried about all the things we have to do into the future. All we need is one person to validate all those negative things we’re telling ourselves in between our ears, really decimate how we feel about ourselves. So having a leader that can give you that positive reinforcement, that encouragement, that dust, dust that individual off when they fall down and say, “Hey, what did you learn through this experience? What are you going to go do different in the future?” I think that’s the way we need to lead. We can’t teach our children the same way we used to, we can’t bark orders and expect they’re gonna listen, we actually make them part of a collaborative approach to what goals and actions they’re working on in the coming year. It’s I don’t know if you guys have this in the United States. But here we have student led conferences where actually they leave goals and actions in the coming year and they say, hey, this is what I’m trying to work on. It’s a really cool approach and it’s the same approach we’re using in business So I guess, you know, going back to your point is you can’t be a 1970s CEO anymore. You have to, I think, have a more team collaborative approach to leadership.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I am I’m here for this disruption. I’m here for this revolution in the workplace. Because I mean, I, I often, I frequently will say, leaders, people in positions of power, formal power, authority, power and authority can make or break organizations. They can also make or break people. And, and I appreciate you bringing up the health component because it’s, you know, it’s your, if you are working in a situation where you don’t feel heard, you don’t feel valued, you don’t feel respected, you’re not included, you’re not protected. You’re all of those things, which so many, so many people we work with, they think that that’s this like really obvious, egregious, like, you know what it looks like when it happens, but it actually can be very covert, it can be very subtle, it can be very, it can be the best of intentions, but incredibly dismissive. It can be, oh, we have this great culture, but it’s a great culture for people who look and sound like us, not for other people. And you don’t even realize it, and how even more – I mean, for me anyway, how I think of it is, it is absolutely the sacred role. Right, that that we get to walk alongside folks and their career journey, because let’s be real people spend most of their time at work. They just, right? That’s, that’s how our system is set up. And, and it’s really sacred. And, and so there’s, there’s so much that you share that I again, I appreciate and part of why I wanted to be in this conversation with you, is also to to, – sometimes I think, – and this is true for myself, and this is certainly true for teams we’ve worked with, when you’ve never experienced what it could look like you don’t even know that’s a possibility. Right? When you, when you’ve only known a certain level of suffering. And you don’t even know how good it can be. Or you don’t even know what those conversations can look like. Or you don’t even know what does psychological safety look and feel like. It can be really hard to move towards that. And so that’s part of why I wanted to be in this conversation with you is to, to show what what it can look like. Because so often what we hear are things like, don’t take it so personally. You gotta leave it at the door, you gotta, right, like compartmentalize your humanity so that we can essentially exploit more from you. Instead of like, let’s honor and embrace your humanity, and how do we leverage that?

Geoff Anderson
One hundred percent. I think it’s also being vulnerable to and realizing that you’re not perfect. And I’ve seen so many leaders walk around thinking like, I can’t show any weakness, I can’t show that I make mistakes too. Because if I do that, then I’m going to lose the respect to my team. In fact, the opposite is true. You’re going to make mistakes, and you can pretend all day long that you’re not making mistakes as a leader, but you will. It’s what you do when you make a mistake. And when you go back to your team and say, “Hey, you know what, I really screwed up here, guys. I’m really sorry. And here’s what I’m going to do different moving forward.” No different than we would expect them to do if they made a mistake. I’ve had to do that numerous times or ask for help. Why should a CEO ever ask for help from their team? Because they need it. Right? And and I think on two or three occasions, I’ve had to look to my team and say I need your help, because I’m swimming here, guys. And we need to make some changes and and without your support, I’m not going to be able to do this and being vulnerable. And you know, I’m probably a little bit more on the sensitive side. I think my team have seen me break up and crack up and, and get emotional at times. And I’m okay with that. I don’t think that’s a weakness for me, but and it has shown them that it’s okay for me to see them vulnerable as well. And it’s definitely strengthened our relationship

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s a – yeah, I mean, people are more likely to take the risk when they see you being willing to take the risk. Right?

Geoff Anderson
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I have I have you know, I have one thought before we wind down and I don’t want to take us down a path necessarily but I do want to ask it that sometimes what we can see in organizations where it’s working really well. Like your organization, right. Not that it’s – like no organization is perfect, no organization is without faults, right? But it’s it’s healthier, and has more moments of health then maybe not. How do you manage the fact that sometimes when, what we observed is, when when things are going really well, that actually can increase some avoidance of conflict because they don’t want to rock the boat. So what are, what are some of the things like what are some of the strategies that you will work on to overcome that?

Geoff Anderson
Well, we just came off the heels of a an outstanding year financially. We – and it’s probably the best year in the last four that we’ve had from from a fiscal standpoint. However, (laughs) however, with with that growth, and with all the challenges that we’ve been able to overcome, and with that growth in size, I’ve noticed at times, some of the Heart to Heart conversations around conflict aren’t happening happening as much as they should be. And so I can tell you a real world example right now, where I know there’s a little bit of internal conflict going on in my team, because I’ve heard things and I’ve heard little murmurings. And I’ve heard a few sidebar conversations and, and I know that as leader, I need to get a few individuals together in a room, and we need to have a good discussion on some conflict or perceived conflict. And then together come up with, okay, here’s a pain point, I know it exists, let’s talk about it. And let’s figure out together as a team, how we’re going to fix it. And I think that you had brought up earlier, the fact that larger organizations have a tendency to grow beyond their means to a point where things get fragmented, people aren’t talking as much. The personal conversations cease, because it’s all about the work, especially in a virtual environment. So I think as a leader, you need to be able to take the time to have those personal conversations with your direct reports, that you’re taking some time for team building and having some fun, heaven forbid, we say, yeah, it’s, this is a really fun place to work. But I love it when people say that to me, because it means that I’m doing the right things, that they get to come to work for eight hours and have some fun and have some laughs. –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Because we’re not saying it’s fun, if it’s not safe, right, like you can’t have fun, you know, if you have an unsafe environment, it can’t also be fun. So like, that’s a big indication of some safety there too.

Geoff Anderson
Correct, correct, yeah, obviously, you still have programs, policies, procedures, and you gotta be safe. But what I’m more talking about is that culture when our members come through the door, and they don’t know why it’s different, but they have a sense that this is this is a different place to come to shop. And they see people having fun, and they see people helping each other and they see the laughter, and they see the conversations between our team members and our members, and the great camaraderie that that we see amongst our teams. That’s the difference that our members do. So if I can end on anything, it starts internally, first, your internal customer experience or your internal customer service needs to start with how you treat each other. From the top down. Before you can ever expect that your that your employees will treat your customers any different. It needs to start internally first.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that. That’s such a beautiful place to wrap up, Geoff, before we officially close the door. And you may you I mean, you may have already answered it. But if you have another example, I’ll take it. We always ask the question, what was the conversation you had with yourself or with someone else that was transformative. And obviously, we heard the beautiful story about Larry. But if there was another one or something else that comes to mind that you’d like to share, I just want to give you the space.

Geoff Anderson
Sure. You know, it’s something really simple. And it’s some feedback I was given at the last retail where I was was was managing before I went to work for our wholesaler for five years. And it seems really simple. But you know, one of my direct reports, I said, “Give me one thing that I need to work on as I move forward in this organization.” And he said you need to smile more. You don’t smile enough. And you got a bald head and a goatee and you can be intimidating sometimes for some people because you look so serious. And two weeks ago, I had one of my direct reports in one of the other coops that I’m managing right now say, I don’t know how this guy is so frickin happy all the time. Because he’s always smiling, he’s always laughing and he always seems just so even keeled. And I’m not. I’m a human being and I have bad days like everyone else, but I think it – nobody can I guess underscore the importance of eye contact and smiling to everyone you interact with, in the organization or outside the organization. There’s 480 minutes, typically in an eight hour day, that’s 480 chances that you can make somebody’s day by just being kind, smiling and having a 20 second conversation with them. So.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I adore it. What a beautiful way to end Geoff. Geoff Anderson for Moose Jaw. Thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your insights and your journey with all of us. So thank you so much for being here.

Geoff Anderson
I hope it was a value. Thank you for inviting me, Sarah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been Geoff Anderson. And one of the things that I’m holding on to is that point he made of it just takes one person to validate those fears, those thoughts, those worries and as a leader, how do you make sure that you are not the voice that does that? And we want to hear from you. So what resonated with you? What are you thinking about differently as a result? You can send us a message at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. Or you can find me on social media where my DMs are always open. And if you’d like to find out more about the work that we do and how we can help your team have conversations that matter. Check us out at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. You can also pick up a copy of my latest book, Don’t Feed the Elephants! wherever books are sold. And if you would like to support the show, please consider becoming a patron. You can do this by going to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where your financial support will support this incredible team that makes this happen and you’ll get some pretty great swag. And if you haven’t done so already, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us with exposure so that we can continue to bring on great guests like Geoff Anderson.

I want to do a big thanks to our team that makes this podcast possible. To Nick Wilson, our producer, Drew Noll, our sound editor, our transcriptionist, Becky Reinert and marketing consultant, Kaitlyn Summitt-Nelson, and the rest of the SNoWCo. Crew. Thank you. And a final thank you to our guest, Geoff Anderson. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you so much for listening, for joining us each week across the globe. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others. We can change the world. So please be sure to rest, rehydrate and we’ll see you again next week.