Episode 051: A Conversation on Leadership Burnout with Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell as they discuss the rise of burnout, particularly among executives, and ways in which the job of a leader is evolving.

About Our Guest

For almost two decades, Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell has been helping organizations and leaders become more effective and inclusive through her engaging diversity and inclusion professional learning sessions, leadership development programs and equity & cultural proficiency coaching. Gilmara has worked with HR managers, chief diversity officers, and other leaders to create more inclusive work environments. Gilmara has collaborated with organizations from the private and public sector, in a variety of industries. Gilmara has supported organizations develop strategic plans, create equity driven monitoring tools, create more inclusive cultures, and learn more about equity-driven leadership . Born in Brazil, Gilmara moved to the United States in 2001. She holds a Bachelor of Multicultural Education from FUMEC University (Brazil) and a MSE in School Counseling from Drake University. Gilmara has a focused her doctoral studies in Organizational Behavior with a focus on trust in the workplace.

 

Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and with each other. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me back is my dear friend and colleague, Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell, and just a little bit for those of you who are unfamiliar with her, and maybe some of you will be familiar. She has over 20 years experience helping leaders and teams and organizations move forward in the space of diversity, equity and inclusion. In addition to the work that she does with us and with our clients as one of our senior lead facilitators, she’s also the Director of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at IMT Insurance. She hails from Brazil originally, but makes her home in Iowa. She’s lovely, I could just gush and gush and gush about – and for those of you who may be familiar, she was one of our first guests, and we brought her on to talk about the importance of disagreements. And before we jump into our topic today, we’ll just you know, Hi, Gilmara, welcome back to the show.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Thank you for having me back. I’m so excited to be with you again.

Sarah Noll Wilson
We’re, you know, what, what inspired this conversation, I mean, I’ll take any opportunity for us to be in conversation together. But just to catch the rest of you all, who are there listening. We’ve been having a lot of conversations about what we’re observing related to burnout and leadership. And so what we wanted to do was to just have an open conversation – well, to continue the conversations we’ve been having within our team, and that Gilmara and I and Teresa have been having and to include the rest of you. So today, what we really want to just dig into is what we’re noticing from burnout, specifically looking at leadership, but I think we can all agree that we’re seeing higher levels of burnout, just people generally. So, you know, Gilmara just start with a little bit of, you know, what are the things you’re observing, whether it’s in the leaders, you’re working with, the people, you’re in conversation with, the people in your life, right, like we are in revolution, with lots of lots of leaders in our world?

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Yes, I am definitely noticing a higher level of burnout going on across the board. But the interesting thing for me, Sarah has been that executive level burnout is more prevalent than I have ever seen. And I think that spring 2022 When the pandemic began, and leaders had to pivot their business, take care of their workforces, protect them, and, you know, scan for new opportunities, I think they were operating in higher gear. And I think now we are transitioning to a post pandemic stage, and we’re still operating higher gear. And yeah, that’s just not sustainable.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It you know, I was just talking, I was just talking with one of our, our clients up north, and you know, they were they were talking about how how do we transition mentally organizat – like, how do we transition as an organization, from being in just pure survival mode, to like, we don’t have to be in survival mode so much. And you know, and looking at it both organizationally and individually. So when we talk about this idea of burnout, I feel like it is a phrase that people use a lot they use it to describe, but they don’t always know how it can manifest. And I think that in our work with lots of different folks, we see it manifest in different ways. So leaning and kind of calling on your former history from a counseling, from a mental health perspective, what are some of the ways that burnout can show up, particularly when we’re talking about leaders for people to be aware of?

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
So some of the symptoms that people start to notice when that’s happening, are difficulty to sleep, change in energy levels, so everything looks like an uphill battle, you’re more lethargic. Disengagement can be a burnout signal, change in drinking and eating habits. A lot of times people start abusing alcohol or eating a little more. Irritable, you know –

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s what I was thinking of.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
A little less patient. So there are lots of ways that it manifests. And everybody shows it up differently, right. There isn’t one way that it goes through it. But one of the things that I have been thinking a lot about, Sarah, is that I have been reading some research that indicates that the number one cause for burnout in the workplace is toxic cultures and behaviors that are tolerated and not addressed. And so I think that we can’t control our competition, we can’t control natural disasters, we can’t control the war we’re having, however, we can control our culture, and how we hold people accountable for toxic behaviors in the workplace. And I do think that since that’s the number one issue, that becomes even more of a priority, you know, not only talent right now is super difficult to find, because there’s lots of opportunities for everyone with remote work. We know that a healthy culture prevents burnout.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
The work life imbalance a lot of times goes back to, I feel safe at home, and I don’t feel safe in the office. And that’s the imbalance. And so I think, being intentional about really creating a healthy culture, a culture where toxic behaviors are addressed and not tolerated, will be super important in this new post pandemic stage, because we are already fragile.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s there’s there’s two two things that are coming up for me, you know, the first is, I think that as as we continue to evolve, and kind of, quote, unquote, get back to normal, right. Or at least it feels more normalized, that there’s this misunderstanding, or maybe a lack of appreciation, or being aware maybe is even just as more simple of the fact that like when your body is under stress, for as long as we were under stress for as long as we were navigating uncertainty, as long as we were navigating loss. And on some level still are, you know, like, I have a family member who’s older and immune compromised and is dealing with a really severe case of COVID right now, right. Like, but that we don’t realize that that has a residual effect on us. And even though it might feel like oh, yeah, no, like, I’m going out, I’m seeing friends, I’m traveling all of this, like, we are not the same. Mentally, we are definitely not the same. And physically, many of us are not the same.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
No.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And I and I want to I want to hit on that point of, you know, that that the idea, or what we know is that one of the biggest contributors. And as you were talking about one of the biggest contributors being a toxic work environment. What I was thinking about is like, so how does that relate to the leadership burnout we’re seeing? You know, the people who have the ultimate control and authority. And you know, and I know that you and I have had previous conversations that some of the burnout, some of the some of the reasons we’re hearing people talk about why it’s harder, why they’re more exhausted, is because of the expectation, or the need to lead differently, and to show up differently, because, you know, so talk, talk to us a little bit, you know, about how creating a psychologically safe culture, creating a not toxic culture isn’t just like something you put into a computer and say, “And we’re done.” And we write it on a note, and we’re done. It takes a lot of emotional labor, that I think a lot of people aren’t prepared for.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Yeah, so so I have been, I have been thinking a lot about this, as you know, and we have been thinking a lot about this together. And I think that one of the things that is required right now from leaders, is that in this post pandemic stage, when we develop a vision for the company, and how we’re going to operate, post pandemic, because things have shifted, and they will never be the same. So we have to adjust and align. We have to develop a vision for the leader too. How are you going to shift and meet the new expectations that your employees have for you as a leader because it’s not the same? And a lot of leaders are doing this systems shift, forgetting that their role also has to shift. The CEO role is not the same post pandemic as it was before pandemic, and how are you going to show up like we are right now CEOs and executive leaders have to talk about mental health with people because there is a mental health crisis going on. They have to embrace emotions, they have to become more vulnerable than ever to model self care to model being in touch with our own health and well being. We’re having to have conversations about grieving. We’re having to have conversations about things that in the past didn’t happen in the workplace. And guess what, we don’t prepare leaders for this. We prepare them to be technical. To have excellence in technical areas, we don’t prepare them to embrace emotions, to have difficult conversations with people, to support them when they’re struggling with panic attacks, with depression when they lost their mom. And so what’s required from the CEO and executives right now? It’s really not to be a superhero or a shero. It’s to be human and vulnerable and honest about how are they doing? You know, we don’t need to be strong, we need to be real. And I think that’s really hard for some leaders, because they have a misconception that if you are the CEO, if you are the head of an organization, you can’t show weakness. And we look at needs that we have as humans as weakness, which I completely disagree with, you know, I love when a CEO says, I’m burned out, I need to take two weeks off. You know, I love when they model for people that that’s okay to say and do. But we don’t see that happening very often.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s such a, that’s such a powerful point you make that – you know, I think we’ve talked around this, but I don’t think that I’ve heard you articulate it in that way of that we’re, we’re doing all of the systems adjustment. Well, how do we how do we work? And how do we share information? And if we do hybrid, what does that look like? And there’s all these systemic changes. But you’re right, we’re not, we are not having the conversations around well, what does that mean to lead in this environment? One of the things that we’re seeing, and we’re hearing this, so people who are listening who are in leadership, who might be feeling this, or people who are in HR, who might be hearing this as well, is that some some leaders are recognizing, this just takes a lot more energy and effort to show up in a really human way. It takes more effort and energy, to have the conversations we’ve been avoiding around diversity, equity and inclusion. To have the conversations I need to be having with myself, you know, in doing this work and creating the culture that we want. And, you know, you and I, we were chatting on the way home a couple nights ago, and we’re like, we do this work all the time, and we get exhausted. (laughs) I can’t imagine the leader who’s you know, I’m in my early 60s, I’m gonna retire in two years, and all I’ve known is command and control. And now you want me to do what was someone’s emotion, Sarah? Like, I don’t, I don’t have it. I don’t have it in me.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Totally. Yeah, it’s really interesting. The other thing that I think about when I think about burnout, too, is that I see when we work with our clients that a lot of times our natural inclination is to blame burnout on the personal level. So we always think about burnout in terms of somebody’s personal life, or their caregiving for somebody, or they are single parents, or they’re dealing with some other things outside work. And instead, what I’m challenging our clients to do is look at the systems that are in place at the organization that are leading to burnout, because a lot of the burnout was seen as work related. Work related burnout has become a health condition in 2019. And so I think that we need to really take a hard look at how do we schedule meetings in our organizations? Do we have – because now without driving time, we can have 10 meetings a day without a break. That’s killing people. Do we have mental breaks throughout meetings are longer than 90 minutes so that people can do something that doesn’t require brain brain engagement? Such as, stare at the window, pet a cat, you know, just do something that gives our brain a mental break. How do we facilitate therapy appointments, leave when you need a break? And so I think there are some systems and how do we, how do we embrace people when they are running at capacity and make a mistake? You know, I think there are some systems things that we have to rethink, to allow for prevention and in navigate this burnout levels that we’re seeing, it’s not only personal stuff that we have a need for.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that you brought that up, because that’s something you know, sometimes will see that as the solution to navigating burnout is some individual thing you can do. And, you know, when I think of early in my career, I don’t think I knew the word burnout. I don’t think that was something we talked about back then. But it was definitely what I was experiencing because it wasn’t just like physical fatigue, but erosion of my sense of confidence, right? Like I just was so exhausted and part and no amount of me taking a day off, no amount of me getting my mind right was going to change the fact that I was working in an environment that was working 70 hours a week, we were working on the weekends, right, sometimes toxic leadership. And and I think that’s a that’s a trap, we continue to see like, “Oh, can you come in and how do we help people think differently about burnout?” I was like, “Well, every single one of your team members has said something to the effect of we’re bursting at the seams here. You know, like, we keep sprinting, but we never stopped for water.” And and, and so I love that push of how do we look at the systems? You know, because even and I think about this in our own world, I think about this for my own, you bring up about the meetings and the fact that we can do more meetings. And if we’re in remote, literally, it’s like logging off and logging on, logging off and logging on, and I don’t, you don’t even have the time to walk to the bathroom. And so like, I know, something I’m trying to be more thoughtful about is how do we try to end 10 minutes early, you know, so that we also aren’t dealing with that like residual thinking fatigue, you know, because our brain just can’t shift so quickly. But I think that that’s, you know, for people who are listening, who are maybe noticing in their environment, and I know some of the people who are listening, I know your environments. (laughs) I know, I’m you know, I know the stories that people are talking about is like systemically, and and what do we need to do that might feel outrageous, not outrageous? What’s the word I want to think of like, really progressive or really, like, substantial to get ahead of this? Because I can be productive for so long when I’m burnt out, right? Like I can exist and move. But at some point, the cost is going to be really significant.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Yeah, absolutely. I do think that if you are in a leadership position, and somebody comes to you and says, I’m burning out, or they’re exhibiting some of the signals that they’re at risk of burning out, I think we need to rethink how how can I facilitate things for this person to take good care of themselves and for our practices, to shift so that when they come back, it’s a sustainable wellbeing journey for them. Because a lot of times people take leave, they get better. And they come back and in two day and there again, because we haven’t shifted anything in our systems. And that’s not sustainable. And so when somebody is burning out, everybody has a role and changing and adjusting so that that person’s needs are met. It’s not only them.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
I remember, I’ve told you that Sarah, I know that. But I remember one time in my life, when I was going through my divorce, and I was juggling a lot at a time. And of course, any divorce experience, most of them are very emotionally charging, and taxing. And I talked to my boss at the time and supervisor and I said to her, I am going to grow, go through something really difficult. I will need to take more time off. I have attorney meetings, I have therapy meetings. My kids need help. I said, so I wanted to let you know to expect that I’m going to be gone a little more than usual. And she looked at me and I’ll never forget that moment. She said to me, she gave me the best gift a leader could have given me she said to me, I would like for you to take every Friday off as sick leave. And she said we don’t need to record that as vacation time. Just take it as sick leave because I want for you to have time to focus on your well being. Every Friday, that’s your day to regroup while the kids are at school, to go to your therapy to do something for you, to think, to organize yourself for the week. And I could not have survived that semester without my Fridays. And the fact that she looked at that as a sick leave instead of taking away my time off as a vacation time was such a gift for me. Because I was going to get sick, it was sick prevention, you know, but –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
I was going to get sick if I didn’t have that time. I was running on empty and I had so much going on and I didn’t want to drop the ball with my family or with my work. And so I’m going to invest time in myself. And I will never forget that because as a leader there are things we can provide people with. I would never have asked for that. I hadn’t used one sick day, I had like, 380 sick days to use at the time, at the time, and I would not take one, because I didn’t look at that as a sick leave situation. But it was looking back, I was at risk of burning out. And with that, with that prevention, what happened was, I was able to carry on all my roles, the best way I could, didn’t drop the ball, didn’t burn out, didn’t need to do, you know, a lot of the things that sometimes when we are not preventive, we have to. And so that was really a special gift I received from her that I will never forget. And so whenever I see that somebody is at risk of burning out, I always think as a leader, what can I do here to facilitate some, you know, wellbeing for this person, because we all can help.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and I mean, you know, I, whenever you can hear really specific stories of like, this is what it actually looks like. Because so often, you know, sometimes what we’ll see and here is people just need to leave it at home, you need to leave it at the door, that’s not my problem, it’s not my job. And but if you are committed to this person, right, and wanting to support them, and making sure that they can bring their best selves to to the very work you need them to do taking care of them – and sometimes that means getting creative. And sometimes that means, you know, sometimes sometimes I feel like I understand why policies are in place, I get that. But we have so much more flexibility, I think than we feel sometimes. And you know, or there’s this worry of, well, if you do it for one, you can’t, you know, you can’t do it for all of them. And like and again, I understand some of the reasoning behind some of that. But what a gift and then I can only imagine that like how that act of love, I’ll use that language. But how that act of care, then just only reinforced your commitment, only reinforced you feeling safe, right, which then further reduces additional harm or suffering or stress in the workplace so that you can just do what you need to do. I think sometimes leaders bind their hands and like, I don’t know, I there’s nothing I can do. Like, no, actually, there’s a ton of stuff you can do. A ton of stuff.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Right. My personal example was not work related. They had nothing to do with work and this situation was a personal issue. But it was going to affect my work if I wasn’t supported, like she supported me. And I my commitment, you’re right on my commitment doubled, because I knew she cared about me as a human. And she was there for me when I needed. And so my commitment to this organization and to her specifically, was even higher than before.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You said something, you said something really interesting that I want to come back to. And I think it’s important. And and and because this is true, no matter like who you’re with, whether it’s a friend, a spouse, a family member, that point you said, if I wouldn’t have asked for it, I wouldn’t have even – probably, it’s not even that you would have known you could have and you didn’t, you just didn’t even ask for it. Because when someone is in a state of burnout, or they’re in that state of survival, you can’t think of solutions. And when you don’t have the power, you also can’t think of possibilities. And so I think that’s something for us to – that’s a gift we can offer each other. I feel like there have been times, there have been times I just actually wrote about the in the LinkedIn post I wrote about how when Teresa stepped in, when we had to put Seymour down and she just kept pushing me like what else would actually help you? Would it help you if I did this? And I’m like, actually, yeah, that is what I need. I didn’t know that I can ask you for that. But that is actually what I need. And so sometimes again, and I think in the spirit of I don’t know what else we can do is being okay to say hey, would it be helpful if and give people a really specific thing. You know, I think about last year at this time, nearly this time, was probably the worst burnout I’d ever experienced in my current job. You know, I was speaking at a conference in California. And I remember getting to the conference and just like, I don’t want to be here. It’s I I just don’t want to be here. I literally went to my hotel room and I just cried and I remember calling Nick and just like I’m like I’m so fried right now. It’s not that I don’t want to do the work. I’m just in this moment, I’m so physically mentally and emotionally exhausted and I will never forget my friend, Rachel Sheerin, who she actually does a lot of work on burnout. We were texting each other and she said you need like, lay down on the ground. Rest, like more rest than you need. And what are you, like what here, let’s talk about some ideas for how you can get that. And in that moment, I couldn’t even think about what I needed, because I just knew I was just so, it just felt so empty. That’s the way I would describe it. I just felt so empty.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Yeah, I can’t relate. I think the fact that you talked to somebody, and were able to in the fact that you were able to say that’s where I’m at is huge. Because, like this week, I was having a pretty busy week, and lots of extra things came up. And a normal week. I’m juggling a lot of things. When extra things start popping up, then I lose my, my synergy. And when I was having a meeting yesterday, I could tell I was less patient than I usually am. And I told my colleague, I said, “Hey, I just want to tell you, this has been a really tough week for me. Nothing special has happened, just a lot of little things came up. And I am fried. And so if you think I’m different, don’t take it personally, it’s nothing with you. I am just fried.” And she looked at me and she said, “Thank you for telling me that because I was wondering if I had said something that rubbed you the wrong way?” And I said, “No, I am just not as,” – I am usually, typically I’m pretty friendly and smiley, and I was just more serious and less patient, you know, I didn’t do anything disrespectful or anything like that, but I just wasn’t myself. And she could pick up on that. And so I wanted for her to know that it’s okay to tell people I’m on the struggle bus right now. And it’s nothing to do with you. I’m just drained. You know. And after I told her that she actually helped me quite a bit through the meeting, think through things because I was not thinking super well, you know, I needed a little extra support there. And so it was great. And I know when she’s having a one of those days, she’ll be able to tell me too, because I told her. So communicating that is really important.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And I feel like a lot of people, especially people who are in right, those higher positions of CEO, Executive Director, President, Vice President, Director, right, all of those positions, sometimes I think we feel like we have to keep our shit together.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
At all times.

Sarah Noll Wilson
At all times, and instead of normalizing it, and because I think that that’s, you know, we both work pretty extensively with senior leaders and executives and CEOs. And I know for many of the people that we’re in conversation with we’ll hear things like you’re the only one I can be messy with. Yeah, and I’m glad that we can provide that because leadership and business ownership can be really, really lonely.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and it doesn’t always have to be like that, like who – just like you with your colleague, just like I do sometimes with the team of, hey, I’m my brain is not working like it usually is I am, had my 3 am meeting with my clients and didn’t get to bed till 5:30. And then I slept exactly three and a half hours so I am not functioning. And so how do we normalize that? And I think that’s something too for people who are listening who are in those senior leadership positions. Who do you have? You know, who do you have that you can say, “Man, I’m just I am struggling a little bit right here. And I just want to let you know.” And who do you have that you can be messy with because I also get that there might be things you don’t want to share with the team or, you know, and so that’s where it’s – I’m very pro having a therapist, having a coach, having a colleague, having a mentor, somebody who’s maybe even outside of the business, you know, maybe not always your spouse because this is something I hear too, like, “Oh, my wife just can only hear so much about me being exhausted.” But, but make sure you have people that you can say like, “I’m just struggling today.”

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Yes, absolutely. I agree. Having that network of people that you are safe with sharing those things is super helpful. I also think that when you are in a leadership position and you’re always looking like everything is fine and you have it all going, what happens is you send people message that first there’s something wrong with them because their life is not like your, perfect.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. (laughs) Yep.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
You look fake because nobody’s always okay. And so it sends a message that you’re out of touch with what you’re experiencing, and what others are experiencing. And that really affects trust. And so it’s a big deal. You know, toxic positivity.

That’s exactly what I was thinking of when you were talking.

It’s a really big deal. And I feel like in the Midwest, we’re conditioned to put a smile on our face and pretend we’re okay, at all time.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And to say, we’re fine. You’ll be fine.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Drives me crazy. Like, when you ask somebody, how are you doing? And they say, “I’m fine.” Buy you look at them and you know, they’re not.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
I don’t know. I don’t want to I don’t want to show up like that, you know, If I’m struggling I’m gonna tell you I’m struggling. If I am excited, I’m gonna tell you I am excited. I think it’s so great to have ups and downs we all do.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s that point you made about when, when you’re presenting things, as always, okay, or always joyful, or always everything will work out, is that it absolutely can erode trust, which is the very antithesis of what I think most people want, who are trying to do that they’re trying to help you have a different perspective. And, you know, and what we know from research is that people who are able to be present with their emotions process them way faster, in a way more healthy way than people who shove it down and say, I’m fine. And they put the bow on it. And, and you’re right. I mean, speaking from a Midwest American culture, it’s, especially when you look at from, like, when I look at Midwest men, right? Like, we’re not going to talk about our emotions, we’re not going to talk about – we’re not going to express any kind of vulnerability or struggle. And, and it’s amazing, though, because I know you experienced this too, and probably even more so because one, folks Gilmara is incredible. She’s an incredible coach and incredible conversationalist, and your ability, your ability to see people and to give language to what they’re struggling with that they can’t even give language to I think is so masterful, what you do. And the thing that’s so like, just I don’t even know what I want to say like a good reminder is that when somebody pauses and says, “No, but how are you doing, really?” The other person always reveals it. And there’s always this moment of release of, “Actually, it’s kind of tough today.” And you know, like I loved when you and I hopped on, and you’re like, it’s been a really, it’s just been a really hectic week. It’s been a really full week. And we could just and I was like, yep, it’s been a full week, too. And it was just being present with each other. We weren’t trying to solve each other. We weren’t trying to say, oh, here’s how you should think about it. It was just like, yeah, we’re just going to name that and sit with that. And what’s and I think that what I see is that so often, when we’re so afraid of being with those emotions that are tough, feel tough or feel uncomfortable. What happens is that we feel more connected to the person.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Right, I agree. This this same leader I had that gave me that gift when I was going through my divorce, she taught me something else, too. She lost her son while she was working with, we were working together. And I remember once in awhile, I’ll have a meeting with her, scheduled with her. And she would show up, and she would just cry with me. And, you know, the way she looked at crying and bringing that sadness into our collaboration, made me look at her as human and made my bond with her become a lot stronger because I thought she is like me. She should be sad right now. If she had showed up excited and joyful I would think something was missing, something was wrong, that she wasn’t being real. So I got to thinking, how many times have I seen a leader cry? And how many times have I seen somebody show up to a meeting where we had something to accomplish and just forget the agenda and attend to their emotions. And honestly, I loved that. We got everything done we needed to do but first, we always try to attend to our emotions and get into a space where we were ready. Sometimes we try to push things through without doing that. And what happens is you’re distracted, you’re disconnected. And you’re not thinking your best because the emotions are taking over your head space, you know, and so that was another valuable lesson she shared with me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s so uncommon.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
So uncommon.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, and one of the things we didn’t talk about, and I think this is a conversation, you know, certainly for a future, future conversation between you and I, and I know I’ve got a guest that will be coming on in the future who specializes in mental health for working with men and all of that is – and when you can’t, when you can’t release that, when you can’t be present with that, I mean, even just for yourself, much less was somebody else. There’s a, there is a huge cost. And, you know, and I mean, I’ve worked with, I’ve worked with guys who said, I don’t feel anything below my neck, you know, and, and yet, it can be so powerful. And I think that that’s the thing that I wanted to share that I know you and I have observed is that we’ve noticed the burnout looks, again, anecdotally, right, not research, but just our experience. Anecdotally, male CEOs are struggling in a different way than we see our female CEOs, right. And I can’t, I can’t help but wonder, you know, how much of that is also, right, being in in cultures, especially American culture, where men aren’t supposed to show any kind of vulnerable emotion.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Yes. I totally agree. Because I have noticed that right now, in my work, I see more men struggling than women. And I wonder about that, I wonder if it’s because men are not allowed the space to express emotion and to have this kind of conversations as openly and now they’re having to shift their kind of work mode. And that’s not something that they have cultivated throughout their careers. And so it’s so so unnatural for some of them to embrace that. Like, just yesterday, I was with my daughter at one of her school functions. There was a little boy there with his mom, and a bee was circling around him. And he was very terrified. And when he express that emotion, she looked at him and said, Be a man. And I thought, we are training, we’re training these boys to grow up and think that being afraid is not okay. You know. What does that mean? Be a man. You know, so layered, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
And I couldn’t help but. Oh, go ahead.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
When she said that to him he stopped expressing his fear.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and it’s not that the fear went away. It’s that – what I did, what did I read recently, kind of similar talking about similar situations, but talking about children, children in general. And they’re like, when, you know, when a kid is upset, and you don’t help them process that emotion. And you’re like, you just need to suck it up, or you need to stop, quit, quit crying, be a big kid, be a big boy be a big girl and stop crying. The act of shutting down is not actually processing that emotion health in a healthy way. They’re actually numbing themselves and disassociating and disassociating in that moment, and that causes a ton of issues. When I was thinking about the story between you and your leader. I couldn’t help but imagine like, yeah, there’s some people who will be listening like there’s no way I would cry in front of people. There’s no way I would do that. And, and yet, and yet, like (exhales) it’s in the room. I mean, that’s what I always say, like, the emotions are in the room, whether you want to acknowledge them or not.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
They’re there. It’s, you know,

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
And so bringing it all together for you to see that person is real. When you numb fear and sadness, you also numb joy. You can’t numb just one emotion. And so when we train ourselves to numb, we are numb in everything. And that’s not the way we want to live. I want to feel, I want to feel the sadness, I want to feel the happiness, I want to feel the joy, I want to feel the fear and we can only feel all or nothing, you know. So we can’t, we’re not able to select what emotions we’re gonna allow and what emotions we’re not gonna allow. And so that’s something that I often think about, you know, when I’m fearful, I think, feel it, you know, reflect on it, what’s causing that, because sometimes those emotions are your best teachers, you know, but we, we live in a society, like I had an opportunity to attend the funeral two days ago. And when I was there, I noticed a lot of the men were wearing sunglasses inside, because they were crying, and they didn’t want their tears to show. And I thought, how sad is that? Go ahead, take your sunglasses off and cry, you are allowed the space to cry here. You just lost a family member. And, you know, it was very interesting that when they were talking after the funeral, and all with their sunglasses, one said, “Yeah, I had the same idea. I’m putting my sunglasses on, so that nobody notices I’m crying.” And I said, “Why, you can cry, you know that, right? It’s not a shame to cry.” So it’s interesting how we think some emotions are less than ideal.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I feel like I feel like this is a really beautiful place to wrap up just that reality of, you know, in numbing one, you numb numb them all. But if you want to feel some you gotta feel them all. And you know, and just to reiterate, some of the things that we’ve talked about, and some of the really great suggestions you brought up is one, burnout doesn’t, burnout doesn’t always look like physical exhaustion. Burnout can be disengagement, right? All of the examples you shared at the top of the hour. It certainly can be exhaustion. But if you’re feeling it, or if you’re observing it in somebody, right, how what what are the things that you can do, but then also, for people who are noticing high levels of burnout in their organization, that’s when you have to look at the system. If the system is caught, you know, if we just keep piling on the plates, then no amount of time off is going to change the fact that the plates are going to keep crashing. And so we have to look at that system. And I really appreciate that practice that you offer it up of, you know, as we look at what the new world of work looks like, it’s not just shifting policies and how we work, but it’s also how do we lead? And what does that look like, and just normalizing, normalizing being present. And, and, and again, like, just for those leaders who are, because we get to see some amazing people who are trying to step into that more vulnerable space, to realize that you will need probably more recovery as you show up differently. In your conversations. As you show up differently in your relationships, as you show up just differently, it’s going to cost you a different kind of energy and you need, you need a different kind of recovery than you did before. What you know, final thoughts from you as we we wind down our time together on this topic.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
I think my final thought is not only we have to model self care, I am trying really hard to increase the way I care for my well being and my physical and mental health, and sharing that with the people in my circle so that I can influence how we are all taking care of each other. And I suck at it, to tell you honestly. So I’m working really, really hard to do that. And and the other thing is not only working for my own self care, but also looking at leadership, as a leader, with my leadership responsibilities, how can I impact the way that the people that I work closely with are allowed to take care of themselves mentally and physically? You know, what kinds of systems can I take tackle that will make us all healthier? And so I’m trying to really pay attention to that because I do think that we can talk about it and we can model it for people. And it sticks when we model it for people so that the interim can do the same with the people they work with. And we can all become better at looking at needs as an important indicator instead of a weakness.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Lovely. Thanks for coming on the show Gilmara.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Thank you for having me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And and thank you to everyone who joined us to have this conversation and we would love to hear from you. You know maybe some of you are struggling yourself. Maybe some of you have noticed people in your life are struggling. You know if you need a place to be heard, you can always connect with us at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. And we will always hold space for you, but it’s always just such a, it’s such a gift when I get to be in conversation with you, Gilmara so thank you so much.

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Thank you. Likewise.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been my colleague and dear friend, Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell where we explored what we’re observing related to burnout specifically in leaders. And you know, one of the things that I’m holding on to is just that idea of as leaders, what are we shifting and changing in our leadership as the world of work changes and I think that’s really important practice. And again, we want to hear from you what resonated, what’s coming up for you, what are you experiencing related to burnout, you can always reach out to us at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. Also, my DMs are always open on all social media platforms. And if you’ve been listening for a while and you want to support the show, there’s a couple of ways you can do that. The first is to please rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us get exposure and to continue to have these great conversations like we had today with Gilmara and myself. Also, you can go to patreon.com to become a patron and your financial support will support the show.

I want to just take a quick moment to thank the incredible team that makes this podcast possible. To Nick Wilson, our producer, Drew Noll, our sound editor, to Becky Reinert, our transcriptionists, ksn marketing services, our marketing consultant and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. And a big final thank you for Gilmara for being willing to come on the show and to expand the conversation that we’ve been having over the last couple of weeks. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening. And remember when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. Thank you so much. We’ll see you next week. Please be sure to rest and rehydrate.