Episode 053: A Conversation on Men and Mental Health with Dr. Jason Frishman

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Dr. Jason Frishman, PsyD, as they discuss Dr. Frishman’s JourneyMen program and his work with men’s mental health.

About Our Guest

Jason Frishman lives in rural Vermont with his wife and two sons building a homestead, and spending as much time outdoors as possible. He has been working for over 20 years to support individuals, groups, families, organizations and businesses. Jason is excited to bring over two decades of work in offices, institutions, kitchens, farmers’ markets, woodlots and boardrooms to wild new environments. Whether as a psychotherapist, the creator and founder of JourneyMen, public speaker, thought leader or narrative consultant, Jason believes that our lives are adventurous, and we can and should be an active, engaged author of our own adventure stories!

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Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations, where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and each other. I am your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me this week is my new friend, Jason Frishman . I’m really excited to dig into this topic, particularly since it’s mental health awareness month, and we’re gonna be talking a lot about mental health and men in particular, but let me tell you a little bit about Jason. So Jason Frishman lives in rural Vermont with his wife and two sons building a homestead and spending as much time outdoors as possible. I’m very envious of that. He has been working for over 20 years to support individuals, groups, families, organizations and businesses. He’s excited to bring over his two decades of work in offices, institutions, kitchens, farmer’s markets, wood lots and boardrooms to wild new environments. Whether as a psychotherapist, the creator and founder of JourneyMen, public speaker, thought leader or narrative consultant, Jason believes that our lives are adventurous, and we can and should be active and an engaged author of our own adventure stories. Welcome to the show, Jason.

Jason Frishman
Oh, thank you so much. It’s, it’s, it’s always nice to hear that read back. So it’s a – thank you. It’s good to be here.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, so what else? What else? Would you like people to know about you?

Jason Frishman
Oh, goodness, I just came back from somewhere where I had that question. And so I was gonna use the same answer, which is, I, in addition to everything I do with men, I’m also very passionate about food ways and food activism and things like that. And so I’ve been teaching about fermentation, and traditional nourishing food ways, for the last 15 to 20 years.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I feel like we have a future –

Jason Frishman
That’s a big one for me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s a future topic for us.

Jason Frishman
Oh, I’d love to talk about that, for sure.

Sarah Noll Wilson
There’s so much I don’t know. (chuckles) And so much that would be valuable. No, I love that. So, you know, one of the things that that drew me to you, so our paths crossed on LinkedIn, I don’t know, you showed up, the algorithm was like, Hey, you might you might like this guy. And you know, and as I started following you, I started to notice some of the really incredible work you were doing, particularly around supporting men from a mental health perspective, from a, you know, reconnecting with their intimacy, connecting with their emotions. And as people know, on the show, this is a topic that’s near and dear to my heart, you know, both from the standpoint of I see it, see the cost, right, of the rules.

Jason Frishman
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And it’s something that Nick and I talk about, quite quite often, and, and how that limits people. But take us back, you know, to, you know, we read the bio, but take us back a little bit of where did your journey start? And what were some of the things that shaped you to doing the work that you do now?

Jason Frishman
That’s a big question. (laughs) I, you know, part of it is anyone who knows me for a long time, you know, one of my closest friends, I was talking to him about this conversation that we’re having today. And, you know, he said, he’s like, just remember, like, all of us who know you, it makes sense, what you’re doing. So even as a kid, I was often the person who was in the middle of talking to people and, you know, I, my father’s a social worker, my mother’s a teacher, you know, as a kid, I was – my favorite thing was to go in and help the other kids and, you know, go with them to work. And so it was quite, it was a long and curvy but but very expected paths that I’ve been on. And so, you know, I graduated undergrad with a psychology degree and then found through like, coincidence and synchronicity, this amazing program, a master’s program in adventure therapy. So, you know, never had heard of that before and wound up, you know, really, like loving that, that was life changing. And then wound up working in some wonderful places in rural New Hampshire and hiked the Appalachian Trail, and then wound up finding the perfect grad program for my doctorate. Where, you know, I had the year before been given a waitlist for another program, and they gave me the feedback that I had too many of my own ideas. That’s why I didn’t get in right away. And so this doctor program when I applied, I sort of said, Listen, I have a Master’s I’ve been working for seven or eight years, I’m certainly open. But I do have many of my own ideas. And they were like, yeah, come on in and they pretty much like invited me at the end of that interview. And when I graduated with my doctorate, the head of the school sort of joked that I took more independent studies than anyone else in the history. (laughter) I knew what I was looking to learn. And yeah, so yeah, it’s been, it’s been a wonderful thing. I’ve worked for over 25 years with, I’m dating myself a little bit with this reference, but a Boys to Men practice,

Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure. (laughs)

Jason Frishman
I really focus with boys, men and families, and then started the coaching program a couple years back when I really wanted, I felt like it was the best way to serve men within the confines of culture and the systems that we have now.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, that’s, that’s amazing, for people – so I just want to go back to one thing that you mentioned, just to clarify, what so what’s adventure therapy for those of us who are unfamiliar with that? Because it sounds kind of amazing.

Jason Frishman
It is, it’s wonderful, and the programs and they there’s an international adventure therapy community that is wonderful and creative, and it’s pushing the therapeutic world in many like pushing the bounds and really beautifully, but in short, adventure therapy, is the use of the metaphor and concept of adventure. With an experiential, active based therapy that utilizes very strongly metaphors and connects the activities that you’re doing which stereotypically people think of camping, hiking, you know, ropes courses, but it can be any activity, but connecting the the structural components of the activity, metaphorically with the issues that you’re working on in therapy. And it’s really a powerful experience, you can come to adventure therapy for many different styles of therapy. So it can be both a philosophy of healing and treatment, but also a collection of techniques and strategies and tools. I have taken it into a slightly different way where I lean more heavily on the metaphor and the storytelling aspects of adventure therapy because I’m, you know, I’m working here virtually in many ways and a lot for lots of reasons. But I, I went a different way than taking kids or adults or you know, people into the woods or on ropes courses, I do it more, and have always done it more in offices and in the community.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Got it. That’s so interesting. It’s I mean, in a past life, I was a ropes course instructor. So I spent a lot of time in my younger generation, like, not as a therapist, but right, like doing team building. But also I just had my first experience with forest bathing, you know, which was basically a guided mindfulness meditation, it was cold as hell and it was like a little too cold to be able to, like really sit with it. And then it was like, well, what’s that teaching us? And what’s the metaphor there? (laughs) And, you know, how do we hold steady, but –

Jason Frishman
You going to start doing cold plunges?

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) I mean, I might need to. It, but what was so interesting, and it makes sense, right? We know how like healing nature can be, and being connected and being an out in it. So I love love hearing. And I’m sort of not surprised as the little that I’ve learned about you. I’m like this. I mean, I feel like your friends said like, this makes sense. Like, this makes sense that this is part of your, your journey. I want to, I want to though, spend as much time as we can, from the standpoint of the work that you do with your JourneyMen’s work. So talk to us about talk to us about that program. Talk to us about, you know, where did it start from a standpoint of the need that you were seeing? I mean, I and I will say it again, this is something that you know, I think I think more people are starting to talk about like toxic masculinity, we’re starting to become much more aware of these gender roles, or, you know, these rules and rules that have been placed on all of us, and how they really impact and limit and cause a lot of harm. And and that’s definitely what what drew me to your work. So I just, I just want to be a student, so teach me you know, so talk to me about the work you do and and what do you what do you see like, what are the things that you observe are real needs when it comes to mental health and men?

Jason Frishman
Yeah, first of all, thank you. It is, I can say that having started JourneyMen has been some of the most energizing and inspiring period of my entire career. And making that shift is, you know, it calls upon all sorts of creativity and connections and I get to do it in in the way that I see is most useful and helpful to other men. And so, you know, that’s I think the first piece is, you know, I’ve been a therapist for 25 years and the managed care, the boundaries, all of them are there for a reason I certainly am not here to do put down the therapy, you know, this the therapy industry, I still do it full time. But what I found were many of the men that I was working with, we would have these amazing, like, powerful sessions. And at least a quarter of their progress was sort of lost as soon as they left my office and went back into a culture that isn’t supporting the kind of changes they were making. And that that was heartbreaking, right? You know, I used to start some of the talks that I give about JourneyMen by saying, I have lost count how many times I’ve heard men say, you know, if my wife left me, I’d have no one to tell. And these are the same guys or guys who will argue that they have friends, they’ve got buddies, right. But if the wife left them, they’d have nobody to tell. And so that was one piece. And then then the real point in terms of saying, like admitting to saying, I’m going to start doing this in a different way was, I was sitting with a client, in my office. And on the other side of my door in the waiting room, there was another male client that I knew I was seeing next. And I’m, in many ways not allowed to introduce those guys.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.

Jason Frishman
And because I know them, so each of them individually, so deeply, I can say like, if I could have introduced them, they would have significantly less need of me. And that was sort of the that realization in the middle of the session was one thing that really said, all right, I need to find a way to do this differently. And that started my journey sort of, towards looking at coaching and looking at, you know, building communities rather than the sort of sequestering away that therapy encourages.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Jason Frishman
Right? So JourneyMen, specifically, you know, what it is, is really based on is the isol – well, in supporting men to create connections, right, the isolation that men have, on so many levels, is is damaging on every level, you know. Our health, our relationships, our parenting, our business, you know, there’s so much that, you know, we can see in today’s day and age, we our men are dying early, they’re the highest rate of suicide. There’s all levels of depression and anxiety and these kinds of things, where even men who outwardly look incredibly successful, there is this deep level of isolation, shame, secrecy.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Jason Frishman
And so you have men who may be on the outward side look incredibly successful in or, you know, make a lot of money and all of these things, but who, you know, are lost. And that’s where JourneyMen sort of steps in is, we’re looking to create new narratives and new ways of being for men and for fathers.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Jason Frishman
And ways of connecting. And so the need is, is truly one that I think on just about every single level in our society, if we start to work on, other things in our world get better, right? Like, the patriarchy, the you know, there’s lots of talk about patriarchy, and social justice and all of this. And yes, we have to continue putting all of our energy or lots of energy into women’s movements, black lives matter, like so many different things. I believe that if we help men to do better, all of these other things also do better. Like, you know, we are, basically one of the things and I didn’t make this up, but I heard it from somewhere else. I can’t remember, but patriarchy doesn’t care about men either.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right? Right. I am, I gotta say, Jason, you know, part of it is I’m in a little bit of a tender spot, personally, but just, you know, hearing you talk makes me makes me a little misty eyed. You know, it’s from the standpoint of, I don’t know that I I don’t know that I’ve, I’ve ever thought about it as clearly as you just stated. How, how many issues and challenges we have really hinge on that isolation, the loneliness, the inability to be vulnerable, the – just all of that, right. Whether that’s from a violence perspective, whether –

Jason Frishman
The shame.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, the shame, right, and the not like living up, you know, we’ll get into the whole, like, hero’s journey here in a little bit. But before we jump to that, I just want to honor that because one of the things you know, so I work largely with executives, and senior leaders, which means I’m largely working with white men, right? Like, let’s be very clear, and typically who I’m working with, and, you know, as an executive coach, it’s not uncommon for conversations, especially because so much of my work is about trust and building deep relationships, right? How many times I’ve, you know, I’ve I’ve heard folks say like, I don’t either, A, I just don’t feel anything below the neck, or, or, you know, men really lament of, yeah, like I have friends to drink beer with, I have friends to watch sports with. But I don’t have friends to have these kind of conversations with and, you know, and I and I know that so much specifically speaking from an American culture, because we have an international audience, but specifically from an international like from an American culture, right? So much of that is like patriarchal, white supremacist, homophobia, right, like all of that. And the thing that I see, so, gosh, I, I was, I was speaking at an event that was largely largely men, mostly white men. And it was all about just like, how do we show up in emotionally charged conversations? How do we be more curious with ourselves? How do we understand stressors? I mean, it was all all kind of under the guise of how do we navigate conflict. And it was so interesting to me how many men were like, I’ve just really appreciated how authentic we could be like how, like vulnerable we got to be in this session. And that’s the thing I see is that there’s such a craving of it. And this is where my ADHD is coming in. So I’m bouncing a bit. So let me get back to my point and my question, (laughs) you know, when you’re, you’re you following me, my fellow ADHD person, ya got me?

100% I’m with you.

Yeah, that’s good.

Jason Frishman
(laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
But, but I have started to reflect on and and wonder about how so many of the issues we have in the workplace related to safety, related to engagement, related to even inclusion are like, what role does it play that the people who are in power aren’t the people who know how to build those kinds of relationships, because they have been socially and culturally conditioned not to? You know, like, it’s like, I’m like, –

Jason Frishman
100%

Sarah Noll Wilson
And then so I’m just curious, like, what comes up for you? And, you know, what thoughts would you add to all of my, my thoughts?

Jason Frishman
Well, I mean, honestly, I couldn’t agree more. I, one of the things that I dream for JourneyMen is at some point to be doing more workshops with work and businessman because, or executive pieces, because you’re absolutely right, like the, almost, in order to become an executive, you have to eschew all of this kind of relational connection piece, and there’s something really wrong with that, right? Like, there is something incredibly wrong with the you mentioned socialization, but the way that, for decades, we have been in a dominance based cultural, you know, setup and domination isn’t, doesn’t work. Like, you know, there are, you know, we can argue that dominance works for capitalism, but there are certainly other ways to do capitalism that might be helpful for everyone. Might actually help us feel connected and have more of a values based direction. But I yeah, I think, you know, so many times, I’ve talked to men who are in my office, or, you know, in the coaching program, where they have reached a level of success outside, outside of their work. And in order to do that, though, they are silencing a part of themselves. Simply that hurts, it hurts to do, and I think men are either explicitly aware of that, but they are certainly implicitly feeling.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah, it’s that, gosh, that that makes me think of, there’s an author, Alok, who speaks a lot on like, non-binary experiences, but they teach a class on creative writing, and one of the questions they ask people to reflect on is not going to get the language right. But what part of you did you have to silence basically, in order to, to show up where you are? And so, you know, so I’m curious, you know, what, – for people who are listening for, you know, specifically, you know, for our male members who are listening to this, this show, you know, what are what are some of the common patterns of limiting beliefs, or maybe even some shame spirals or whatever, like, what are some what are some of those common patterns just to normalize it a bit, right, like the, you know, things that I know I’ve seen is, you know, people who don’t fit the dominant kind of like machismo super career driven norm, like that can be, that can be really detrimental from self, sense of self worth, right? And values perspective, right when your value –

Jason Frishman
Absolutely.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And so I’m curious to hear, you know, just what what do you observe in your work? And how can we normalize some of this? Because, like you said, you know, people are experiencing it implicitly, maybe explicitly, but just how do we like shine a light on that?

Jason Frishman
There’s, there’s so many, it’s interesting, you say that, because like, there’s big ones, like, you know, you know, being successful financially or sexually, or, you know, like being machismo, there are these things. And, and those are real, they are very big, and they happen. But I find even with men who consider themselves more sort of aware than that, there are smaller more, I don’t know, there are smaller stories that infiltrate that are harder to see. The think that I often like to talk about is, frankly, anything that is childlike, feminine, or other is essentially not okay to be for men. Right? And so when we think about, you know, even so when, let’s say, you have somebody who’s being silly and enjoying life, like laughing and playing jokes, I’d like to see them hanging out with the executives you work with. Right? Even just being playful, you know, that level of, of silliness, or connection through humor is something that our current sort of “man box society” doesn’t value and sort of actively eschews and pushes away. So everything from silliness to anything that might be seen as feminine or soft, you know, these, these, these levels of, you know, I mean, the idea of like hugging and kissing your kids, you know, I on that level, it is, you know, I have guys who I’ve worked with who have struggled with that, right? Like, their goal in some of our coaching work is to hug their kids every single day. Now, for listeners that I don’t want it to say like, there are guys who do that very open. There’s lots of guys who do that, but we’re still impacted by this sort of man box culture, to the point where like, even speaking out against other men, is seen, you know, like, you can’t speak against the boys club, right? You mentioned or, you know, use your your if, if you witness, let’s say, another man in person or online, making misogynistic comments of some sort. Most men will, even men who like notice that and they’re appalled by it or whatever, most men are not going to say anything. Because in this culture, if you do that, then you’re the next target.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Jason Frishman
And so we’ve got this whole, you know, pressured system where patriarchal dominant society, not only is actively pushing sort of these qualities away, but it’s also bullying men who might stand up to change it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Like, I mean, which is just depressing when you, when you hear it said how you just said it so it’s like, that’s fucked up. You know, I mean, like, and we, we, we know it, I mean, we see it and god I couldn’t you know, I smiling at your language, not smiling because I thought it was funny, but more just like, how, how common, how common it is we hear things in our work, like, that’s pretty soft. It’s kind of squishy. We’re really technical. That’s the thing we hear a lot. We’re really technical, Sarah. We’re really, we’re very analytical. We kind of don’t do relationships. And I was like, but you you do, you just don’t do them well, like, (laughs)

Jason Frishman
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson
But it’s, but there is this like, I need to set this identity that – and the thing that’s so funny, the thing that, not funny, but the thing that is so consistent, let me clarify my language. The thing that is always so consistent, and I’m sure you see this in your work as well, is that when when we are able to create an environment and to start to build some of the muscles of connecting with yourself, connecting with someone else, even if that’s as simple as like, just through like listening differently and reflecting back differently. Like we’re not talking baring your soul, but even just fundamental coaching, trainings that we do, it is always so provocative for so many men and, and how much they appreciate it. Right. So even though there is this like, like, we’re analytical, we’re this, you know, we’re not, we’re not soft, but we recognize we need to do better job, but we’re really analytical, Sarah, how many of them when they get the opportunity to connect in a deeper way, really, really appreciate it. And I think almost like recognize that it’s something missing. But then like you said, when you were talking earlier about how your clients would go back and like lose most of their progress, then they just go back into their, like, old patterns. And that gets buttoned up and like, well, that was fun. – But this is what it could be like.

Jason Frishman
Well, and I think, but that’s exactly what you’re saying. Even these subtle things that keep men from from connecting in this way, it’s like that, you know, we have to be pulled kicking and screaming, but once we’re there, it feels so good. It’s really like I let my shoulders down, and I can connect. But that takes work, right? Like we are, we are, are pushing back against many decades of socialization, that, you know, some of the real subtle things or spirals or messages that we’re given really are that men don’t do that, and that we don’t need to connect. And there’s like all of these pieces, you know. I have male friends who, you know, when their birthday comes, what do you want for birthday? Oh, nothing, just just hang out, you know, like, they like asking for ourselves and connecting in that way, or, you know, any number of really subtle, small things that are harmful, right? Like they are, like men being able to, like, connect in real and powerful ways. It grows upon itself. But it takes work. It’s not. – It isn’t easy, because we truly have been taught to believe – so the story, you know, one of my focuse is narrative therapy. And the stories that we’re taught, that we learn, that we hear about ourselves become the reality. So in some, there are many men who wouldn’t even question even though it feels terrible, who wouldn’t even question the story that, well, I don’t need this, or, you know, I don’t think below the head or, you know, the, you know, these elements are not even, like it’s almost taken for granted that’s just the way we are. Right? I’ve heard people say, well, men and women are so different, it’s biological. It’s genetic. And that’s not true, actually, neurologically, it’s not true. Like, we don’t need, we don’t have a physiological need to be a provider who stands apart. You know, that’s, that’s a story that we’ve been told for years, decades. You know, the one thing you said about way it made me think about it when he said that they like, they would say like I don’t experience it below the head or below the neck. I had a mentor whom I worked with years ago, he was a physician. And he used to say the worst thing that the medical world ever did was cut the head off the body. Which, you know, to me is has been a really important thing I think about now doing psychology and mental health, is let’s bring the body back to the head.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Jason Frishman
So we do a little bit of both work. So yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s interesting. Yeah. – There’s so much there’s so much for us to explore with this. And, you know, one of the things that – you hit on this, but that I that I was curious about, you know, when you were talking about, for example, the dads who might struggle with even showing their kids affection. I remember, last year or two, reading some article that basically was like talking about how part of part of a contributing factor to isolation loneliness is that lack of physical affection. That basically, men only get physical affection if they have a partner, and usually even then it’s always in a sexual way. You know, whereas like, –

Jason Frishman
It’s always transactional.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s always transactional. Okay, say more. Yeah. I’m curious to get your thoughts.

Jason Frishman
Yeah. No, I’m sorry to interrupt. But yeah, I mean, the physical, physical touch is something that, you know, we are taught as men so early on, that it’s either going to be sport based, sexual based, and it’s almost always, I do something and get something in return. Right, this transactional piece, and it’s, it’s really it’s that you know, that there will be guys who are really into giving whatever it is, but but it’s still this case of like, well looking for something, looking like trying to like, I did a good job so I get a, you know, –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Pat on the back.

Jason Frishman
I get a cookie, basically, you know, like, and so physical touch, which is truly a needed necessary thing for mental health, right? Like, one of the – when I first started JourneyMen, I did a bunch of R&D conversations with men who are fathers. And one guy said something that I repeat all the time. And I tell him that I share this all the time. But he’s, I said, going through a program like this, what would be a goal? And his first thing was, I want my kid who now holds my hand at 12 The way he held it at two is still feel comfortable holding it at 22. And, you know, like, I have a 15 year old and he still will climb into my lap sometimes. And, you know, I it’s something that’s incredibly powerful. And we have that with, you know, our kids, it’s slightly more acceptable these days. But I often think about like friends, right? Like, my male friends, my sons have seen me hugging. They’ve seen me kiss on the cheek, they’ve seen me, like, really being held because something bad happened. And I had a friend hold me, right. Like, these are things that I don’t know, 10 years ago as men, we wouldn’t say out loud. Maybe, still most won’t today.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Yeah, still not still definitely like not not the norm. And it’s, you know, and it’s, it’s interesting, I was really fortunate to be – I come from a family of fairly, like very sensitive, sensitive men. Like my dad is, my dad is just a crier, right? Like, he’s just like, God bless him, like sappy commercial, the shoulders start going. You know, but I but I realized, the more that I’ve, like, learned about, thought about, right, these gender roles, like even, you know, like, I’m so grateful that I had that. And also, I see the like, needing to hide it, needing to like, mask the emotions, right? Maybe people joking about oh, there he goes again, or whatever the case is. And like, these are all these little messages we send. And like, on one hand, I’m just I’m so grateful that, you know, when I think about my dad, and my brothers, who was part of my formative life is very – but how that gets chipped away, and how that gets whittled away because of the box you’re in. One of the things that, you know, you you and I were talking about just a little bit, I want to make sure that we have some time for it is you know, that idea of the hero’s journey, and why that’s actually so problematic and how that contributes to some of this. So I’m curious to hear more about that.

Oh, goodness, you’re up in a box here.

Hey, we got time, it’s good.

Jason Frishman
This, this is my dissertation, which is on that. (laughs) So the hero’s journey for anyone who’s listening who doesn’t know about it in a very short description is a narrative arc storyline that was you know, made most popular by an academic named Joseph Campbell. And but it was development of Carl Jung’s work in psychology. Lots of people have used it. Today, it’s the narrative of every single Pixar movie, most Disney movies, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, all of the hero superhero movies. It is ubiquitous, and is pretty much the main narrative that most stories told today are followed. And, in fact, Joseph Campbell called it a mono myth. He basically said, this is the foundational myth to all of society, internal and external, right, like our internal, inner worlds and our external worlds. And I love it. I love this story. I think it’s, you know, I’m a huge Star Wars fan. Like I said, I wrote my dissertation on it through that metaphor. And you see it being used, I would say, a large majority of men’s coaching programs use it as a basis for their development work. A lot of therapy – I first take my first 10 years as a therapist, it was the foundational way that I designed therapeutic interventions. So my training, my doctorate training is primarily in narrative therapy. And that, one of the tenants of narrative therapy is to identify the dominant stories either in ourselves, our family or our culture, right? And question them question because dominate stories by the essence of being dominant, are oppressive to other stories. They’re, you know, a dominant story that we take as real or as truth is something that actually covers up all sorts of other potentialities.

You know, just a very simple, quick way of explaining that is you and I have an hour to talk. There’s no way I’m going to tell you my whole life story in an hour, I have to choose certain stories. And those stories create a plotline that is in – that shows a particular way of being that I’d like to present myself. But we also if we were doing it, like you mentioned earlier, we could do a topic on fermentation, you’re likely going to get a little bit of a different plotline.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Jason Frishman
They’re fairly similar in my line. But that’s, that’s a whole other conversation. But so what happens then when we have a cultural story, because our stories culturally guide and model who we are and how we are as people in relating, when we have a cultural story that is so omnipresent, and so oppressive of all other ways, or most other ways of being, then we have sort of basically limited options as to how to connect really and be as people, but specifically as men, because I would argue that the hero’s journey is predominantly a masculine story.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Jason Frishman
Even though right now, you know, they’re certainly, they’re being retold from a feminine perspective. And there’s lots of female heroes. But the story itself is one of, you know, just again, for listeners, the basic story is, you have a hero who lives in his or her place, either gets kicked out, or called out to go to another realm, climb a mountain, battle a dragon, get a treasure, get some help from other people, cross back over to their home, and either save the universe or be not recognized and kicked out to continue adventuring. That’s the basic, you know, plotline. And wonderfully, it is a big part of our psyche, right? Like this idea that I have to go into a new space, I have to get help from people, I have to challenge people and earn a treasure that I can then use for something, you know, there’s nothing wrong with that. But what I find is, you know, JourneyMen originally was called Adventures Other Half. Because what I find is that that story, first of all, celebrates going off and challenging things, going off and getting treasures, doing this sort of big, epic, legendary thing, and essentially denigrate staying home and doing the dishes. And staying home and changing diapers or tending the garden or, you know, keeping the hearth going or whatnot. And as a culture, what what has happened, right? We value making money, going out and providing, going out and doing big things. And we devalue, staying home, we devalue our everyday mundane life, in order to reach, to do epic things. And so many of my men in my therapy office and my clients in my coaching world, if we’re not epic, if we’re not legendary, then what are we? And that underlines a depression, an anxiety, an anger that men are showing. And I think that we again, the hero’s journey is not a bad story. But it’s not the whole story. Right? When the hero is being beaten and is down on the ground, and the dragon is on their head, and, you know, they’re about – they’re all, they’re down and out. Oftentimes, you get a flashback, or you get something. They reach in their pocket, and they find a talisman or something like that. And what are they remembering? They’re remembering home, they’re remembering what their values are, they’re remembering meaning, they’re remembering why they’re doing this in the first place. And yet, there’s no movies about being at home. There’s no blockbuster, epic books about, you know, learning what’s most important to you. You just skip ahead to like, oh, I gotta go save the realm and go off and do it. Right. And so, this idea that we are getting only half a story is particularly damaging to boys and men, because we’re not given the other half of relating, of creating foundations of meaning and value. And, you know, we’re told get the dragon. You know, it’s pretty telling that only until recently has it been anything other than kill or banished the dragon, but that’s a whole other conversation. Right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.

Jason Frishman
But, you know, this – the options of who we are and how we are and what we do in life are significantly curtailed and our world is is shrunk because of the omnipotence of this one story that has been called the mono myth. And it’s like, everywhere we look, you don’t make blockbuster movies by weeding your garden.

Sarah Noll Wilson
There. I feel like I was supposed to hear this message. I know, we’re talking about men, but I think I was supposed to hear this message today. Because and again, I’ll speak to like American culture. It’s so much about hustle. Right? It’s so much about achieving, and even – and then you add in social media and like seeing edited versions of people’s lives and follower counts, and, you know, like, it is god, it’s really, it’s really powerful to see it through that lens. – That’s really powerful to see it through that lens and and how pervasive those beliefs are, right. And even more so with men, because they’re supposed to be the provider, they’re supposed to be the career driven one, they’re supposed to be, you know, and, and we don’t have a culture that values, celebrates maybe, rewards the simpler things, and, and that anxiety of just constantly chasing is exhausting. I mean, I’m just speaking from my own experience, it’s something I, it’s something I feel like I’m always wrestling with, for myself to untangle to undo to like, how do I sever this little weed that keeps popping up? Because it’s so embedded in our culture, but it’s, it’s exponentially an even larger pressure because it’s so much a part of the identity of men. Right? Like, when you were saying earlier, like, if I’m not this, who am I? And, you know, and it’s interesting, because I think also of, you know, we, when I work with CEOs who are retiring, and –

Jason Frishman
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That like, one, like losing that identity, that’s been their identity, but also part of it is losing the power that they had. And sometimes struggling with that sense of loss, you know, which is fine. Like, like, honor that loss. And, you know, or, or seeing people who are like, I’ve been doing, like, I got to the top, and I don’t feel any different.

Jason Frishman
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right?

Jason Frishman
Well, and to go back to what you said about honoring the loss, right? 100% Like, it is a loss, right? You know, like that, again, like, there’s nothing wrong with the hero’s journey in a story. Like, yes, there is importance, like, you can get success. There’s nothing wrong with any of that. But, and if you retire, then you’re there is a loss, like, but I think what you’re saying is so important. Feel the loss.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Jason Frishman
Like, that’s the thing that we’re missing as men, you know, I tend to say to a lot of my clients, and I talk about it a lot here, it is never my intent or goal with any of the therapy or coaching I offer, to help people feel better. It’s my intent and goal to help people feel. – That’s really where we connect, that’s where we, you know, like, yeah, you know, have aspirations, I have them, you know, like, I want to do some epic stuff, you know, I’m going for it. And I’m not gonna do it to the detriment of my children or my wife or, you know, my friends, and, you know, I’m hoping they’ll be, you know, all be on the journey with me, you know, and then, you know, certainly JourneyMen is grown much more slowly because of that, but I wouldn’t have it any other way.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. What I well, and I, I could imagine and appreciate that, because I see this in our work, which is like, a shade different, but similar, you know, like, some, some similarities, but differences. Like just to be clear, I’m always like, you, I can help you here. You actually need a therapist here, right? Like I, I am constantly referring clients just all the time. And, in fact, in fact, somebody once asked me, why don’t you just become a therapist? Like they’re like, that’s like so much of what you do feels like it’s just like outside. And I was like, because I get to work with people who might not feel like they can or should see a therapist, but I can open the door to get them to see it. Right, once we have that relationship.

Jason Frishman
Absolutely.

Sarah Noll Wilson
But I, but I would imagine that there, there just has to be a willingness and a readiness because any kind of any kind of inner work is hard or can be challenging, any kind of challenging the dominant norms and reflecting and I love that exercise of, you know, what are the dominant stories that we’ve told ourselves or our family has told us or our culture has told us? And that idea that that’s shadowing out other parts of possibilities. For the, for the, for the, for the people who are, you know, who find themselves – well, and this might be a bit, this might – you don’t need to answer this, but I guess the question that’s coming up for me is, what is it that – so let me ask the question, then you can be like, I don’t know that I can. What is it that you hear people are craving or wanting when they’re deciding to work with you or to be a part of the community you’re building?

Jason Frishman
I’d love to answer it. So but you know, just just to go back for a minute, you’re right, it is a really hard thing to engage, you know, my friends will tease me that, you know, like, oh, I picked a niche that is notoriously hard, and then made it harder by qualifying, not just men, but fathers. But I think it is, it’s so important. And so when I do get men, I mean, the funny part or not the fun part of validating and meaningful part is, it is so hard to get guys to get – to raise their hand for this. But when they do, it’s kind of like you were saying earlier, like they sit up straighter, they there’s like they walk through life differently. And, you know, so many of the guys that have gone through the program, it’s a small number, but so many of them will say how important it was to them, and how they now see the world differently and how they still stay connected. You know, I have a, for anyone who’s gone through the program, there’s an open house every Tuesday that people just show up, there’s no process, there’s no agenda. And, you know, I have a handful of guys, different guys. So I would say over the course of a couple of weeks, I might have 85% of all the guys who’ve ever gone to my program show up to the to this open house for no reason. And it’s during the business day, it’s during the day, right? So I think to answer your question, which I’ve been maybe avoiding, but I’ll be direct. Well, to answer your question, I think guys are saying they want to be, they want more presence, they want to be, they want to be able to be more present with their family and with themselves. They want to feel like they’re being more intentional. They want to be able to basically know, and be themselves with the people they purport to love the most. And, and that’s what I hear really the most. And I hear that after the program that’s what they’re able to do. And so, you know, one guy said his goal was explicitly to be able to connect with his kids more. And at the end of the program, when we had our exit interview, he said, I did that. But the surprising thing was, I’m more in love with my wife than I’ve ever been. And another guy that I’m thinking about, he came in and he’s said, you know, I want to be able to make more time for my son. And about a quarter of the way through the program. He says, you know, I actually think I do that really well. I’m going to look for what else I need to do. And by the end, he said, I have changed my relationship with my own father more dramatically than I ever thought I would.

So just to go back the idea of adventure, or journeys, part of the definition of an adventure or journey, whether it is a big epic hero’s adventure, or a foundational mundane adventure, is you don’t know what’s going to happen at the end. There is a an element of unknown and of risk that you have to be able to step into. And so yet, you know, that’s also another potential challenge. But when we get guys to raise their hands for it, they’re really, it’s really quite powerful. I would say the other thing that guys are able to do through the program, or they say they want is to learn how to be more intentional with their time, time is always a huge pain point. It gets in the way. And a big part of JourneyMen’s foundational sort of components is social action responsibility. And so a lot of the guys that get involved are like, yeah, I care about the world. These are guys who give a shit, right? But they don’t have time. They don’t – I’m doing this and doing this. And yet, what I teach them and what we really work on is that being a connected man, being a connected father is social activision. And you can start there, you start at home.

You know, I love to tell the story that well, months ago, but when all of the crap with Roe v Wade went down, I sent an email to every guy that had gone through the program at that point, it was a small number. But I said it to every single one of them and said, I’m having feelings and JourneyMen is all about both sharing feelings and being aware of social stuff. I imagine some other guys are going to feel something do you want to show up at this point at this day, and let’s just have a conversation. With less than two business days of notice, during the business day, I had 85% of all the graduates in my program show up to have a conversation. Now that wasn’t a big number.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Jason Frishman
But it was a huge percentage.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Frishman
Men who wanted to show up and say, yeah, this, this makes me upset. This makes, – you know, I have a I have a guy who went through who’s in the military. And he said, I’m showing up today just to let everyone else know that people in fatigues care about this shit, too. And like, he said I sent my whole team home and said, go be with your wives today. This is, you know, and, you know, he got in trouble, in fact, and but he’s like, this is important. And so men are able to not just be connected at home and be more intentional at home and be more present at home. But they’re also able to amend, like, the hero’s journey is one narrative. I call the work we do foundational journeys or foundational adventures. And I feel that if you build the strong foundation, then you’re more able and willing to be epic and legendary, if you so choose.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Frishman
And if nothing else, more connected to the world around you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and I would imagine, I would imagine part of, you know, what you create too is, I mean, obviously, safety, but a layer of safety or a layer of expectation of the, you know, people who are part of your program know, well the other people are trying to do this too. And it’s so much easier to be vulnerable when you know other people are trying to do it too. It’s easier to take those risks when you know, okay, we’re all kind of in this together. It’s awkward. But, and I would imagine that’s part of the gift of the space you create to again, like you were saying early on in our conversation, like you don’t talk, you don’t shut down the, you know, what, locker room talk, you don’t write like otherwise, then, then the target gets put on your back. And I just, I think it’s really, really necessary work that you’re doing.

Jason Frishman
If I could just jump in, I love that you said, layer of safety. It’s a great, great metaphor. I as I as you know, as I mentioned, I love metaphor, I love stories. And I worked really hard to find the metaphor for the work I’m doing. Because I’m not, you know, like, we don’t do many – like I said before, many coaching programs use the narrative, the hero’s journey as a metaphor for what they do. And this is not that. And so I was like, alright, we are going on the journey. So what’s our sort of, you know, metaphor and by turning it on its head – and, you know, when when coaching, when programs use the hero’s journey, it’s often looks like a bunch of men, there’s a very common goal with that common goal, we go off together to do this journey. We get some, you know, treasures, and then we go home to our family. And we’re there for it. Right? That’s, that’s the vast majority of programs. I turn that on its head because the real adventure for these guys, for all of us is at home. It’s not with me and another group of guys. And so I really thought like my favorite scenes and hearts of books and movies, for my whole life, even as a kid was not the dragon battling. It was the inn, the tavern, the cantina, the the meeting space. And why do guys go to inns? Why did they go to the tavern? You know, not just to drink because that’s not a part of what we’re doing it all. But why do they go, they go for community, they go to hear stories tell stories, they go to get training, or to find new equipment, or to get information from the shady guy in the corner, right? They go to be nourished and to rest and to find a new quest or to find – look at a map. And so the metaphor that I use is, their adventures are with their families. They all have their own goals. I meet, I meet with every guy individually before the program and they set their own treasures. It isn’t set by me or it isn’t set by the group. They set up their own treasures, and they have their adventure at home. But once a week, they come to the inn. And you get to see these men who let their shoulders down and enter the inn and get nourished, and our meetings are threefold, right? They are to go over our curriculum and to get the training, and the tools, there to share the work we’re doing, like, oh, man, let me tell you what I did last, you know, like to do that, and also to just commune together and shoot the shit. Like, that’s what we do. And, and so what happens is you have these, all these men with different goals and different treasures. But every time someone speaks, I see all of the guys heads nodding. And they’re all, you know, like, so our our sort of motto is your work is our work, your journey is our journey. Because we gather together at the end, and we do this work together. But then we go off and try it, like go go home and do some of the work. And then you can come back, and we’ll see how it goes. And so so much of this is turning typical coaching and things on its head. Yeah, to really say, your work is back there. You get support here, we get it. And we will do, we you know, like this fall, I’m hoping to do my first retreat with graduates of the program. And incredibly selfishly, I want to do the retreat just because I want to, I want to help them all. I want to serve these guys. You know, like, that’s, that’s why I want to get them together. (laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. Jason, you’re such a, you’re such a gift. And we could clearly keep talking. And obviously, we need a future episode to learn more about you. Before before I give you a chance to share how people can connect with you who might be interested in your work, we do always ask a question, and I apologize that I did not send it to you in advance. So feel free to take whatever time you need. But you know, given that this, our focus and intent with this, these conversations is to reflect on the conversations we have with ourselves and others. What, what was the conversation you had either with yourself or with someone else that was transformative?

Jason Frishman
Alright, so I can pretend that I’ve been thinking at all. But Nick, Nick, actually send me the questions.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, Nick did send. Oh, right, he does send it. Sorry, Nick. I know you’re like on top of it. Thanks, Nick. (laughs)

Jason Frishman
But this was easy. It was an easy one because, well, it was hard, because I have lots of I mean, I my life is about having conversations. But this was an easy one to answer because I have a best friend and a brother, who I’ve known since pre-teens. And we’ve had powerful conversations our whole lives. But I remember, I mean, there’s two specific, but the first one that is really important was we were traveling together and seeing a concert, you know, we were going to see a number of concerts together. And, you know, it was one of these concerts where big stadiums and lots of room to dance and move around. But you were traveling. So we had a bag, right? And so we first get in and we go to the like nosebleed seats, and we set our bag down and we sort of looked at each other we said, this is home. So if we ever get separated, if we ever, you know, whatever, this is home. And it became a thing for us this, you know, we were probably maybe not even in our 20s yet, it became a thing for us. And wherever we went, we needed a home, right and we would set that home up. Then we were you know, a decade later we’re camping. And that had been a powerful experience. We, you know, we talked about it at work, it’s become clearly a big thing in my work. And we wound up going camping, and we found an old tent platform, big tent platform. And we decided we would put our tents elsewhere, but we’d hang out on the platform because it’s flat, not muddy and all of that. And he looks at me at one point he goes, well once you have a home you need a table. And so this has become a decade’s long conversation of like, what are the basic needs that what to we need at home? We need a table, we need, you know, companions, you know, we need this. And so each and every time that we get together and we’ve been doing this, you know, we’ve been adventuring together for goodness, almost 40 years. And it is the foundation of everything we do. So I have spent with him and a few other close friends and our families, we’ve spent the last 25 years together and with our children, without you know we make the time to do that. And because of that we have this friendship where it is family. It is it is you know we can be vulnerable, we can talk to one another. That being said, I’m sorry, like if I’m taking a long answer but this is also really important. We recently had this conversation too where this is the work I do. We’ve just spend time talking about it. And he’s a very sensitive guy as well. He’s been a teacher he’s you know, he’s very aware of these things. We’ve been close friends for almost 40 years. And I don’t think we’ve said I love you. Until we met in our early, you know, before we were teens, I don’t think we said it until our 30s. And even then it was I love you, man. And then it graduated to, I love your brother. And only within the last, like, let’s say, seven years. And these are two men who are pretty aware of this stuff was I were we able to look at each other and just say, you know, I love you, I so appreciate you and I and you’ve been really important to my life. And so I recognize the challenge and the, the the issue that this brings in our world when, you know, we’ve we’ve cried with one another, we’ve held each other like we already know, there’s weddings, you know, we’ve done this, and it took 30 years for us to say it and without feeling uncomfortable.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I, yeah, there’s there’s some personal, personal reflection on that one in my, my, my own life, our own lives of like, how do we how do we say that more often? And how do we you know? – Yeah, just how do we say what we need to say without some like, yeah, you know, your, you know, like some kind of joking or right, like, weird pat on the back, or whatever the case might be. Jason, you’re you, you I love everything about what you’re doing. And I can only imagine that there are people who are listening to this who are thinking, I think I am interested in this, or I think I’m ready for this, or this is what I’ve been looking for. So what are the best ways for people to connect with you if they want to learn more about your work?

Jason Frishman
Well, simply, let’s see, the website has a contact section. So and my website is journeymen foundation dot com. And I’ll make sure that you have all that, but that’s easy. If you want to be more direct, because right now I’m the only one doing it. Like there’s no one else a JourneyMen. So my email is journeymen. I mean, I’m sorry, Jason at JourneyMen foundation.com. And I’m also on, I’m pretty active on LinkedIn. So that’s also an easy way to find me, Jason S, Dr. Jason S Frishman at LinkedIn. So I can give you all of that. But –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and we’ll be sure to add those to the show notes.

Jason Frishman
Yeah, and at this point, like I said, I would really love to just connect with people. So like, you know, you send me a message you’re gonna hear from me, you know, there’s no, I haven’t figured out the tech yet. So you don’t even get an automated response. It is from me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I don’t either. And I – that’s a conversation for another day. I was like, we’re, I’ll just still be with my stone tablet like chiseling away. It was like AI takes over. (laughter) But that’s a that’s a nightmare to discuss another day. But I – thank you so much for saying yes to coming on the show for doing the work you’re doing. It is, I mean, you said it best that it is such a, it’s such a linchpin to the health of our society. It’s such a linchpin in ways that I think we don’t always realize pay attention to, see, and, and the cost, the cost is real to everyone. So thank you for doing your work and coming on the show.

Our guest this week has been Jason Frishman. And one of the things that I’m taking away and reflecting on is just that idea of what are the dominant stories that are limiting you somehow? And what are the stories that they might be closing out or maybe not true for you? So that’s just I thought that was really powerful. I have a whole list of things. But we want to hear from you what resonated, what came up for you and you can always reach out to us at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. You can also check me out on social media where my DMs are always open. And also if you’d like to support the show, if you haven’t already, please make sure you rate, review and subscribe to the show. This helps us continue to bring on really great guests and have great conversations like we did today. And if you haven’t, you also can consider becoming a patron. You can go to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where your financial contribution supports the amazing team that puts the show together.

Speaking of the amazing team, let’s give them some shout out to our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant ksn marketing services, and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. I’m so grateful for you. And finally, just a big old thank you to Jason Frischman. For the work that he’s doing. For the ways he’s pushing us all to reconsider how we can show up more powerfully. Just so grateful to have him on the show. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and each other, we can change the world. So my friends, please be sure to rest, rehydrate and I’ll see you again next week