Episode 057: A Conversation on Preventing Burnout with Carolon Donnally

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Carolon Donnally as they discuss burnout, with a specific focus on the signs and watchouts that can help us catch burnout before it happens.

Resources Mentioned

• Book referenced by Carolon: Connectable: How Leaders Can Move Teams from Isolated to All In: https://a.co/d/2WW8pfq
• Farah Harris’s book: https://www.amazon.com/Color-Emotional-Intelligence-Elevating-Inequities/dp/B0C2SD221Z

About Our Guest

Carolon Donnally is the CEO and founder of Carolon Donnally Consulting a certified minority and woman-owned small business focused on preventing and mitigating workplace-related burnout through leadership coaching, training, and organizational consulting. Carolon is a Professional Certified Coach through the International Coach Federation and earned her Master of Science in Organizational Development from Pepperdine University. She has over 20 years of federal and private sector experience in leadership development, employee engagement, organizational consulting, and leadership and executive coaching. Carolon knows first-hand the impact of burnout on high-performing leaders through her personal experience and her extensive work with leaders. She also knows how to help leaders identify and address the root causes of burnout.

Website | LinkedIn

Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And I am so excited for our guests this week. This is somebody who our paths crossed in a training a while back and we just knew we needed to be in conversation together. And then once I learned more about her, I was like we need to have her on the show. So joining us today, our guest this week is Carolon Donnally, and we’re going to be talking and extending some of the conversations we’ve already been having around burnout, specifically exploring leadership burnout, other types of burnout, but also just how as organizations or even in our personal lives, can we prevent burnout. So here’s a little bit about Carolon. Carolon Donnally is the CEO and founder of Carolon Donnally Consulting, a certified minority and women owned small business focused on preventing and mitigating workplace related burnout through leadership coaching, training and organizational consulting. Carolon is a professional certified coach through the International Coach Federation, and earned her Master’s of science and organizational Development from Pepperdine University. She has over 20 years of federal and private sector experience and leadership development, employee engagement, organizational consulting and leadership and executive coaching. Carolon knows firsthand the impact of burnout on high performing leaders through her personal experience and her extensive work with leaders. She also knows how to help leaders identify and address the root causes of burnout. Welcome to the show, Carolon.

Carolon Donnally
I am so glad to be here. So thank you for having me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m glad that we can make it happen. I know we were you know, we’re messaging and then I would forget – I think I dropped the ball. And then I was like, wait, I need to have her on – like, we we need to make this happen.

Carolon Donnally
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What else do you want people to know about you?

Carolon Donnally
I think probably the biggest thing is that I am, I’m also a mom. I’m a mom, I’m a wife. I’m a sister, and an artist, there’s so many dimensions to the who I am. That I think that the work stuff captures just a little bit of it. But then there’s, there’s more. So those are those are, those are all the things that I I think would be beneficial to know.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that. That’s so so aligns with I know the work you do. And we’ll get into that as well in our conversations, just exploring the idea of identities and how do we expand those. So I’m always curious to know, first, just what was your journey to doing this work? Because this isn’t, you know, it’s not like when you’re in second grade, and the teacher is like, what do you want to be when you grew up? And you’re like, I want to be a leadership burnout expert. That’s what I want to be. So what was your path to doing this really important work?

Carolon Donnally
Yeah, I would say that the, the first time that I encountered burnout was, was actually in my 20s. And, you know, I graduated college and did all of the, you know, the, the traditional thing of I went and got a good paying job and began climbing the corporate ladder. And I mean, I, I loved my job to the point where I would joke with people and I would say, you know, I kind of wish they had cots in the basement so that then (laughter) that’s when you know, you’re in trouble. But I was like, Yeah, I kind of wish they had cots in the basement. So that then you know, on my breaks between, like, you know, they would have like the – we would we would work these split shifts, it was a, it was for a bank, and we would work these shifts where, you know, you would work until noon. And then you could go and, you know, exercise or do whatever, in the you know, in the mid midpoint, and then you would come back, you know, at like five o’clock and then work until nine. I mean, it was, it was an insane time. And so I was like, why go home or do anything else I could just sleep in the basement. (laughs)

And, and really climb the corporate ladder. I, you know, got all the way to the point where, you know, I was leading a team and had gotten promoted several times. I was one of the top performers, like all of the things were kind of coming together. And I’m like, Yes! This is what I’m, you know, made to do. And I remember one day, one of my leaders kind of came to us and they say we love the way your brain works and you know, the strategies you can come up with. And so therefore, we’d love for you to go and take this job in this other city in order for you to kind of utilize your skills in that way. I was excited. Because I was like, yes!, you know and the thing that I didn’t know was that that would lead to an hour and a half commute both ways. And it would take me away from you know my community and the people that I that would I would rely on and be able to, you know, depend on when things got rough and all of those things. And it would mean that I would be getting up, you know, super early, coming home super late, just all of the things, just all of the things, and work became like my entire life. And it got to the point where literally, I couldn’t focus and I was so exhausted emotionally, mentally, physically, that I literally remember one time, I would, I would call my mom in the in the middle of the day, and I just be like, I don’t know, if I can, I don’t know, if I can do this, I can’t focus. And I’d be like missing from work. I would physically be there, but I’d be wandering in the basement. I mean, that’s when you know, this is not good. My boss identified, Hey, there’s something that’s not working. And so what we’ll do is, I think that we will go ahead and we are going to, we’re going to have you go back to where you were. And, and, and so that’s what, that’s what they thought was going to be a good fix, and sent me back to being a people leader. And, and even that, you know, that changing of the jobs, it didn’t work because of the fact that I was I was crispy. I mean, I was I was completely crispy.

And so I feel like the pivotal point for me, when I recognized that something wasn’t quite working, I had an employee who came to me one day and he said, Hey, you know I am, I’m really, really stressed. I’m experiencing some IBS issues, irritable bowel syndrome issues, and I think I need to take some time off, and I did what I thought any good leader should do. And I said, Oh, my goodness, absolutely, takes all the time that you need, go do what you need to do. But that was the extent to which I can have a conversation with that, that person. And so I feel like my work kind of came out of both me knowing and understanding like how do you have a conversation with your leader when you are stressed and burned out, and then teaching other leaders how to do the exact same thing, because, you know, the the person who sent me back, never had a conversation with me about, So, you know, we’re noticing some stuff. What do you need? You know, none of that. And I didn’t know how to have a conversation with my employee about like, what were the work things that were causing the stress or, you know, potentially contributing to it. So that’s kind of my work.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I, well, there’s so much that, like, feels very familiar too for me. And also just like, resonant I feel with stories that I’ve heard, you know, that so much of our 20s is proving yourself, –

Carolon Donnally
Oh my goodness.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And what you think it means to be an adult and what you think it means to be a good worker and, right, and being rewarded and feeling valued and worth because you’re achieving something and it’s exciting. And, and you just think that’s what it is. And your your point, your point about that not having the language or being able to have that conversation. I mean, people still struggle with that.

Carolon Donnally
Absolutely.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, and that’s, that’s yeah, you know, and it’s, – I have so many, gosh, I have so many questions for you. So okay, so let’s start. (laughs) I’m curious to know, because I was just having, I was just having a conversation the other day with the Chief Wellbeing Officer of Deloitte, Jen Fisher. And she and I were chatting about the fact that like, 10 years ago, it was like, no one was talking about burnout. Right? And so I’m curious to see what have, what has been your shift because I, I definitely have had moments of extreme burnout, especially when I was younger, and I didn’t realize that’s what it was, it was just always Sarah, you’re working too hard, or, you know, you’re too hard on yourself, or whatever the case is. And for me, it wasn’t until I started to realize that I was questioning myself that something didn’t feel right, like I was achieving, but I didn’t feel good about it. I had a lot of self doubt. I was exhausted. I wasn’t seeing my family. Right. All all of those things. So I’m curious, just you know, from from your world and vantage point of doing this work. What do you, what are the shifts you’ve seen? You know, sort of because – I’m taking a bit to get here, but I think sometimes I think we’re further along than we are.

Carolon Donnally
Yeah. Yeah. And I honestly think that some of the shifts that I’m seeing is that people are so tired, that they can’t fake it anymore. And in addition to that, I think that, because it’s kind of a collective kind of thing that like, you, you – I think that the pandemic, obviously, you know, had a significant kind of footprint, right, on this whole thing. Because I think that it made it so that, you know, folks were in their, their homes, and that created the conditions for a lot of loneliness, and then work began to, you know, encroach on that home time. And so therefore, the all the all the lines and the things that we talked about, about lines kind of being kind of blurred, and crossed, and all of these things, and I think that it just kind of exacerbated this underlying sense of, I don’t have the connection and community that I need in order to really support myself. But also that, you know, perhaps some of the skills weren’t there that that would, would, would give us what we needed in order for us to create those boundaries and do the things that we needed to do in order to kind of like stave off a little bit of the, the stress that we were feeling. And so I think all of those things kind of in combination, began to kind of create the perfect storm. And then people just got tired of kind of putting on the mask. Because I mean, you were seeing their children running around. I mean, I mean, like it was like, this is this is what we’re doing.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Such a great point.

Carolon Donnally
So let’s, let’s let go the mask, and let’s have, let’s try to have a real conversation about what’s really happening. Because otherwise, I can’t explain this. All this.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.

Carolon Donnally
So yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s why I was so excited to have you on the show. Because you’re, I mean, this is a topic that’s near and dear to my heart, and you’re bringing in things that I haven’t encountered in my readings, or in my other conversations with people. You know, the, that idea of just getting tired of wearing the mask, and, and on some level, it being normalized and okay to do that. Right? Because everyone was in it, even the top leaders who were usually in their little corner office, and their cushy couch or whatever. And, and it’s interesting, because it’s, it’s like I found for myself, I’m like, I just, I just don’t have time for bullshit anymore in a way that I never felt before. And also in a way of, I just want real and honesty and I don’t think that I’d ever – you’ve given me a real gift right now of, I felt that and I see that. And then what I see and I’m curious to hear from you, is what I’m seeing is there some leaders who are like, we need to go back to how it was. We need to go back to not talking about our feelings, we need to go back to putting the mask on and people are like, No

Carolon Donnally
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I don’t want to or I can’t, and, and I, and I feel like and I’d be curious to get your thoughts. I don’t feel like unless you’re in the field unless you’re in psychology or paying attention to this. I feel like so many people are – what I’m observing and people we’re working with, is they’re like, we’re quote unquote, back to normal. But they’re like, I don’t feel – like I’m more tired. And I don’t think we understand the real consequences of the the trauma of the pandemic, the trauma of the racial reckoning, the trauma of the political divisiveness that tore apart families. The trauma of war, and then depending on where you lived, because we’ve experienced this, the trauma of severe weather conditions where you’re like, what is happening, that we’re having tornadoes all the time, in a way we never did before? But I feel like there’s this disconnect of people like no, but we’re like, we’re back to normal. So because we’re going to the stores without masks, and I’m like, I don’t feel quote unquote normal. I don’t feel like I did before all of this.

Carolon Donnally
And you know, and the reality is like, I think it’s because of the fact that we haven’t embraced the gift of what all of what we’ve been through has been trying to give us instead we are we are numbing ourselves to not go there because I think to embrace the gift. And by that I mean and I’m, you know, the gift or opportunity, right? So to embrace that is to be able to sit with the fact that the pandemic and all of these things really unearth, a lot of stuff that was buried and that we didn’t necessarily want to deal with, and that, that now that it’s kind of like, a little bit more uncovered, that we have to sit with it and figure out what do we want to do with it. And I think that takes a level of work that if we’re not willing to kind of like, dig in and do some of that work, it makes it so that the gift of kind of some realizations and learnings and like deliberate decisions about our lives, and making switches and moves in a different direction of growth, that doesn’t happen, because of the fact that we won’t kind of reckon with all of the stuff that’s been happening. We won’t sit with it long enough, in order for it, to really have that transformational kind of power on us. And I think that’s the, that’s, that’s what, that’s what’s happening.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s a, – I’m just gonna, like pause and reflect on every time you talk and just sit with it a minute.

Carolon Donnally
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Because, you know, one of the things, one of the things that I’ve been hearing a lot is our company’s organizations, right? Whether it’s a, you know, retail, or government or technology or whatever, the industry, I’ve probably have heard from a half a dozen clients lately, that they said, we were just in survival mode for so long, we don’t even know how to shift out there. And, and, or to your point, or they’re trying to shift too fast, and not not have a process. And so I’m curious, you know, what would you say, to leaders who are like, we’ve just, we literally were, how do we keep the lights on? How do we keep offering our services? How do we keep food coming? Or whatever, whatever our focus was, how do we – what does it look like to sit with it as a team? And then what does it look like to sit with that as an individual? Or vice a versa?

Carolon Donnally
I think that there’s a level of acknowledgement, that kind of needs to happen, right? Because I think that before we get to the place where we’re like, all right, and so we’re pivoting, which is what we’re what we’re trying to do is we’re like, Alright, so like it’s done and we’re pivoting. And instead of doing that, right, we need to acknowledge the what was right, the, the where we’ve been. And I think that that really takes this, both the acknowledgement of the the events, right, but also the acknowledgement of the feelings associated with what we went through, or what we, you know, what we walked through, and being able to sit with how that has shifted or transformed the way that we’re thinking, right? Because I think that that kind of like pulls it all the way through, so that we’re grabbing the nuggets inside of the learnings inside of all of this. And being able to sit with how it’s changed us. So I think that that piece is the piece that that needs to have a conversation. Because without the acknowledgement pieces of like, man, this was tough on multiple levels for us.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.

Carolon Donnally
Without that, then I think it makes it really hard for us to move forward. And I think that’s what, that’s what the disconnect is where most people are getting stuck is because we’re literally trying to move forward without the acknowledgement piece.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. And, and the other thing that I that I, that I would expand on that, that I’ve seen is also strangely, for some people a sense of loss, because they saw people were like, we we were in it together, right? Like we weren’t in our silos. And now we’ve gone back to our silos and I don’t know how I like that. And I think that’s such a powerful practice of acknowledging what was and to shift and go, so how’s it changed us? Good, bad, or otherwise, what do we want to hold on to? What do we want to let go of? And instead of just like, right, we’re gonna do a sharp pivot, we’re good. It’s like, we’re not we’re different. We’re different. It’s not even that we’re bad. We’re just, we’re different. And, and I wonder, I do wonder, what role that transition, both that emotional transition and that need to be really intentional is playing on particular, particularly people in leadership but obviously everyone, and how that’s just like another drain on the battery. Right? It’s just like another. I feel like there’s just a lot of apps open.

Carolon Donnally
Yes, yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
In people’s brains and bodies and the, you know, they might not realize it, but I’m like, I see it. Gosh, I see it. I feel it sometimes. But I see it in folks. Yeah.

Carolon Donnally
And I wonder whether or not there’s an opportunity. And so a part of my work is making space for that by saying it out loud. Because I think that then opens a door for other people to be like, Oh, thank God. It’s not just me. (laughs) And it allows them to be able to, to have permission to be able to say, and what does this need to look like for me, in order for me to be able to, to kind of do this, to your point to do some stuff individually, and also be able to create pockets of like, you know, connection with others in this. Because I think that that that’s also another piece that’s really important is the fact that, you know, inside of some of this, we felt alone. And inside of some of this, we felt some level of solidarity, because it was just like, you know, we’re in this together, can we, can we, can we pull through to the other side that that sense of I’m not alone, you know? So, so yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
There’s so much, there’s so much we can dig into this. One thing that I’m curious about just building off of what you said. How do you, how do you approach and how do you work with companies who have chosen to stay hybrid or remote fully because that idea of building connection, right? In some ways we lost it, in other ways, with some people, we felt even more connected. And I know, one of the, one of the most consistent traps, I’ll call it, that I see organizations fall into is that the communication and the interactions are so much more transactional. That’s the risk anyway, if they’re not – the people, the companies that are doing it really well, the teams that are doing it, well understand that there needs to be time for personal connection, there needs to be time for just like how was your weekend, there needs to be time for bonding, where as sort of like, worst case scenario, we’re literally just hopping on a call, we’re talking about some business, we’re hopping off the call, and then there’s, there’s none of that connection. So how do you? How do you approach or what, you know, what do you suggest that people in those situations or leaders in those situations, whether it’s like formal leaders, or informal leaders think about and what are things that you help them do differently?

Carolon Donnally
Yeah, so I really try to encourage them to – there was, there was a book and I cannot remember it,

Sarah Noll Wilson
You can always send him we can add it in.

Carolon Donnally
Right. Okay, let’s do that. Yeah. And what I loved about this book was it actually spoke to some specific things that leaders can do in order to be able to bring those types of things into like meetings, right. And it was things like, being able to have like, certain, certain questions that they start, like a meeting with, you know, they’re, they’re these things called, like, connection cards. Right? And they pick a card. And, you know, that’s the question for the meeting. And it can go in different levels of depth, right. It can go from like, super, super shallow. Like, one thing that people you know, don’t know about you, but but should. To a deeper level thing, where it’s just like, what is like one thing that you that you are scared to do, but know that it would, if doing it, you know, it would change your life, right? Like, levels of depth like that. And so it kind of gives you a pick your own kind of journey, depending on the type of team you have, etc. And just gives you this opportunity to be able to bring these different parts of ourselves into the room and into the conversation so that you can have those aha moments about oh, my goodness, I had no idea that, you know, snowboarded on the weekend. Yeah, I mean, like, have those, like, those connection points for folks so that then, you know, they can have those conversations afterwards. I would also I think other things are things like, you know, walk and talk kind of meetings where even virtual walk and talk meetings.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Just on the phone.

Carolon Donnally
Where you know, we are we are as a team, leaving behind the computers, getting on our phones, taking a walk out in nature. And we’re together in that and just having that opportunity to be together, not together, in a shared experience of being in nature, etc, etc. And so I think that there are many different ways that we can, we can foster connection, even in hybrid and, you know, remote kind of scenarios. But what it takes is it takes recognition that that is something that is needed. It takes an understanding of what the absence of that does to teams and individuals. And it takes a willingness to lean into a bit of a vulnerability, right? In order for us to be able to say, this is something we haven’t been doing, that we need to do. And we feel we see value in this. And we’re willing to continue to lean into the discomfort of doing things differently in order for us to have a different result. So that’s kind of some of the stuff that’s coming up for me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, that point you made of, you know, not not just understanding that it’s needed, but that that second point was really powerful of, and also having an understanding of the costs. Because you’re right, the companies and the teams who do it really well, they understand that they understand that if we do not take this time, there will be consequences to it. And instead of just well, we’re just, you know, like we get the work is getting done. So we’re just gonna keep moving forward and all of that. Okay, one thing that I’m curious about, because I think that often my experience has been I’ll say it this way, that, you know, people who are high achieving, people who have achieved a lot who are, right, they’re, you know, highly driven, sometimes can’t recognize burnout in themselves or others, or perhaps, are even unwilling. So, what, for people who are maybe listening and going, I don’t know that I’ve ever experienced burnout, or I don’t maybe that is what I’m experiencing. What, how can it manifest in people? What are some signs that we can be keeping an eye out for either in ourselves or another people that might give us a clue of like, they’re, they’re a little crispy?

Carolon Donnally
Yeah. So crispiness has different levels. Right. And, and I say that only because of the fact that oftentimes, I don’t know that I would have called myself on a track to burnout when I was wanting to sleep in the, in the cot at work, I would have, I would have just said, you know, well, obviously everybody should.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I’m that good. (laughs)

Carolon Donnally
Everybody should want to do this. Right? And I think that it was, it was because literally everybody else was on the treadmill with me. And so therefore, when I looked around, I was just like, well, this is obviously normal. Right? And so there’s a piece of that, right, that we really need to acknowledge is the fact that when we’re in – when I am a high achiever among other high achievers, and we’re all literally doing the exact same thing. Yes, it absolutely becomes really, really hard for us to recognize because of the fact that it’s in the water we’re swimming in.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right (laughs)

Carolon Donnally
And so, and so therefore, you know, any number of individuals in that scenario, it’s like the pot calling the kettle black. I mean, it’s like, what are we doing, you know? And so, but I think that there’s a level of how can we create spaces where we are able to kind of like, have those looking around kind of like, what that would give us perspective? Are there any opportunities that we would be able to be in other circles that would allow us to say, huh, that’s interesting, these these folks are getting it done, but they’re not all stressed out. And, you know, and feeling the way that I am. But I think that, that, oftentimes when we have our head down, and we’re trying to just get the work done it honestly is taking moments of life happening, that gives us those those prospective kind of things that allow us to be able to say, is this what it’s all about? And I think that that’s kind of what happens with with some some high achievers is that they have a life moment that makes them question question the, you know, the ladder that they’re climbing up or question like is this all that life is about is me just keeping busy and keep moving. And I think that that because of our shared humanity we’ll have those moments that if we take advantage – it’s the matter of not speeding past those, right? And being able to say, wait a minute, you know, this thing just happened. Let me, let me be human about it and just take a minute and just be like, whoa. Let me re-evaluate this a little bit and say, you know, is this really what I want to what I want to do? So noticing that and noticing stuff that’s happening in our bodies, right, because, you know, burnout comes with all kinds of body kind of challenges, you know, high blood pressure. There is obviously the fatigue associated with burnout, there is, um, there is like, you know, insomnia, all kinds of stuff. IBS, like I mentioned, is a thing for which, you know, people go to the doctors, and they say, Oh, you’re under stress. If you could take these peppermint pills, then this will make it go away.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it solves it. Go back into the fishbowl. Go back into that water.

Carolon Donnally
And we’re like, Well, what about the thing that’s causing the stress?

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)

Carolon Donnally
Maybe we should talk about that. But it’s like, it’s like not rushing past those pieces that are telling you, my body is reacting to something. What’s that all about? Anxiety, all of the heart palpitations, all of these body symptoms are telling you that something’s not working. And it’s a matter of us listening.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. How, how do we and I will speak because we have a global audience. So I’m just going to speak from a Western American culture. We’re very high hustle, right? Very high sense of urgency, seemingly in everything. I feel like we’re as a team constantly, like, Y’all, we’re not curing cancer. So we’re gonna take it real easy this summer, right? We’re gonna just ease into it. How do how, how do we shift? Or can we? That’s maybe my bigger question because I feel like people who have paused and reflected, you’re right, it’s because something, they’ve lost someone unexpectedly or, or even expectedly, right, like a major life change. Or physically, their body’s like, you’re done. Like, that’s what happened to me was, you’re done, you know, full panic disorder, full, all of that. And, and so there’s a part of me that’s like, how, how, how do we get better at preventing it, and, you know, and doing the things that we need to do? So that, you know, I just, I was interviewing Farah Harris, and about her book on a previous episode. And one of the quotes in the book that I really love is from her colleague, Melissa Douglas, who’s a therapist, and she said, “Delayed self care becomes self rescue.”

Carolon Donnally
Oh, man, that’s good!

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right? Right? I was like, I need to have that on a wall poster. But how do we? Or in your experience, do you feel like it’s always going to have to take some kind of trigger for us to pause? Like, how do we individually start to prevent some of this or notice it or, you know, like, not have to get to a level 10 before we go, something’s wrong, and I need to make some major change. And then as an organization, how do we think about that?

Carolon Donnally
Man, that’s good. I think really, and truly one of the things that I would say is that sometimes for some people, it has to get to a level 10 because all the all the blinking lights before the level 10 just didn’t get seen. You know what I mean?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Carolon Donnally
So it’s like, you know, I feel like, I feel like God keeps sending us signs. I mean, we, we have to either pay attention or, you know, it becomes this thing for which just like, Okay, well, we don’t, we rush past all of the all the blinking lights, and now we’re at the place where it’s just like, we have to, you have to pay attention. And so I think for some people, it’s gonna depend on their willingness to pay attention to the blinking lights that came before the bigger one. And I think that some of those pay attention kind of signs come in other people sometimes, you know, because I think that if we have really good connections, where people are willing to like, be really real with us and say, so this is not working for you. So if we have friends or loved ones who are willing to have those hard conversations with us and we pay attention, then the lights can come on a little bit earlier. But, but yeah, and I think that there’s also an opportunity that when the lights begin to come on, that it is an opportunity to pivot and make different decisions. Because like, like, one of the biggest things that I think about now that I didn’t think about before was rest. And the, the absence of rest in my life, and I’m talking about, like, real rest and, and, and it sounds so trivial, but like, literally in our, in our Western culture, we treat rest, like it is literally, like someone cursed you out. (laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
So true.

Carolon Donnally
You know, I mean, it’s like, it’s awful.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, no trust me. Years of me trying to untangle a very unhealthy relation – I mean, just just like this last week, you know, my husband, my husband, we had, you know, we were working outside and he said, boy, we really – what was the language you used? He’s like, we really are in our sleep tonight. And then he was like, we don’t need to have earned rest, you know, like he caught himself because it’s something we’re working on. Because you’re, again, especially in Western American culture, it’s like, we don’t take the time off, you know. I was talking to a friend of mine in Europe, and they’re like, oh, yeah, like getting ready for a solo camping trip for two weeks. And I was like, what the hell is that? And like, and that’s just one of many things you’re going to do of – and – Yeah. So keep talking. Sorry. Well, I’m excited. I’m really glad that you brought it up because I that was actually, I was thinking the same thing. And that’s where I wanted to talk was about our relationship with rest. It’s so unhealthy.

Carolon Donnally
Absolutely. And it’s funny. Okay, so one of the things that I, that I’ve come to a realization about, right, there is something called hurry sickness, or something like that, right. And a part of the manifestation of this is that it’s kind of imagine you’re like, on this vacation that you’ve been like, waiting for, for forever. And the first couple of days, you find yourself like agitated and angry, and you’re like, what is going on? I should be like resting on the beach peacefully, and blah, blah, blah. You dig a little deeper, and you come to a realization that, you know, the reality is, is that you’re agitated because of the fact that you’re not doing the 50,000,001 things. And so there’s that underlying, like that your body is kind of coming down off of the rush, rush, rush, go, go go kind of thing that like, must do something of be productive, right, your body’s coming down from that. And that’s why you’re feeling agitation. And, you know, you kind of, you know, either the cell phone is still there, where you’re still taking calls and doing all the things and you know, or not, and you’re in withdrawal. But think about the fact that we’re – our bodies are literally going through withdrawal from –

Sarah Noll Wilson
I was just, I was just like writing down the words. I’ve never heard of, thought about, but I sure have experienced work withdrawal. Wow.

Carolon Donnally
And I think a way to teach our bodies how to rest is to do it, do it more regularly, so that our bodies know what it feels like in order for us to be in rest, so that we can move through that in a faster way when we go on vacation and things like that. Because like, like I have a practice of like, you know, every single Sunday is our rest down day. The phones go off or at least my phone goes off. We’re not going anywhere, we go to church in the morning and then that’s that that is literally the only appointment on the books. We go for walks, we do puzzles, we sit and talk to each other. We cook a good meal and sit and have conversations. I mean it’s just nourishment after nourishment after nourishment in order for us to be able to teach our bodies how to rest so that then when we go on a vacation or whatever, we’re like oh yeah, that’s like the thing we do on Sundays. It but it’s longer this time.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. That’s such, that’s such a great point. It’s boy work withdrawal.

Carolon Donnally
It’s a thing.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It is a thing. It’s you know, God bless my my colleague, Amy, my Chief of Staff, she she gives me three strikes. She goes like, if see you in your email, I’m gonna give you a loving warning and be like, “Hey, did you need to answer that?”, when I’m on vacation. Second one is like, hey, that’s the second time, like third time, I’m changing your password.

Carolon Donnally
Oh!

Sarah Noll Wilson
Like, that’s just, that’s, that’s, that’s our agreement. So usually I don’t get past the second one.

Carolon Donnally
That’s good.

Sarah Noll Wilson
But that you know, and it’s, and it’s not even that I’ve ever had anyone tell me, I’ve never had somebody tell me, you shouldn’t rest or that you only rest to be more productive. But that is the message that we get, especially again, over here in a way that I know my colleagues who are over in Europe do not get in that is not the same, right? And that hurry sickness,

Carolon Donnally
I’m telling you, that a thing.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s another gem you’re given me too. But I love I love that practice of resting more regularly, so we can get through that sort of process much more quickly. And, and for me, what I found is – especially early in my career, I realized that a lot of my sense of self was from how busy I was. And something that I had to really work through both in therapy and on my own is what was that because when people would say, Sarah, I just don’t know how you do at all. I was like, I don’t know, either. And then it like, would make me my ego feel good.

Carolon Donnally
Oh yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, only, you know, my husband and my family are like, you’re working too damn hard. And this is unhealthy. And, and now now I do feel like I’m in a much better and healthier place with that. And but it took a lot of having to pull out some thoughts I didn’t even realize. I still have moments where it’s like, ah, is it okay, that I’m just taking a nap, like, I should be doing something else, I should be doing this and, and that I feel like it’s gonna be a constant battle for me is like that little voice that – and those that wasn’t my parents. You know, I mean, they were busy because they had five kids and right, so we were just always a busy household. But yeah, so I’m curious to get your thoughts.

Carolon Donnally
Yeah, the shoulding, right? Is the whole thing, right? Because I think that, I think that whether it was said to us, like verbally, or not, there is like an underlying, I mean, again, back to the water we swim in, the air that we breathe, there is an underlying, like, watching how other people are living lives and doing and even the, like, subtle, like, you know, having a conversation with someone and and you’re like, I, you know, what are you doing this weekend? What are you doing this weekend?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right! Even the question! Instead of like, how are you going to be?

Carolon Donnally
(laughter) Think about if someone asks you the how are you going to be questioned. You’re like, okay, wait, let me let me just make sure that I –

Sarah Noll Wilson
It would like be like, damn, that’s a good question. And I don’t know how to answer that.

Carolon Donnally
I can’t get my brain around that one. (laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
Gosh. I’m gonna like think of that every time I ask, like, what are you doing this weekend? But we do it all the time.

Carolon Donnally
All the time.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Jason Frischman, Dr. Jason Frishman, we had him on a couple of weeks ago. I think it was him, talking about men and mental health and right and he brought up that whole quote of like human beings, not human doings. I think I might not be quoting the right person. But you know, but it’s, you’re right. It is just like, What are you doing tonight? What are you doing this weekend? What are you going to do on your vacation? Jack shit, I’m going to do jack shit on my vacation.

Carolon Donnally
And imagine that answer, right. And, and people and people’s reactions. It’s like, what, oh, or –

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Is that an option?

Carolon Donnally
Or then they start trying to plan your itinerary. You know, they have, you know, XY and Z thing that you can do. And it’s like, did you not understand what I’m saying? (laughter) Because –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh my god. (laughs)

Carolon Donnally
It’s so like ingrain that it’s just like, if you are not doing something, then it kind of is like a mark on your worth, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Totally.

Carolon Donnally
We have to like we have to come to a realization that that’s their thought and what they – but I don’t have to go with that because at the end of my life, I will have been the one to have lived this. And so it’s it’s this ability to be able to take the messages that our subtle or not so subtle that are coming in and be able to say, you know, make a decision that and I am choosing to move in a completely different direction. And that’s okay, and deal with the internal, like, oh, and what’s wrong with you kinds of stuff that begins to happen when we start swimming upstream when everybody else is kind of moving in the other direction. And so being willing to deal with the questioning of what’s wrong with me? Am I alright? And just being able to say, yeah, I’m doing, I’m doing what I need to for me, and then it getting more and more comfortable as you do it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What a – I feel like I need to pay you for this conversation. That, my friend, Farah, she will often say don’t internalize somebody’s external narratives. And I, and I love that point of, at the end of the day, this is your life, you’re the one who’s experiencing it. And you get to choose how you show up. And, you know, and I think the thing that I’ve learned is to give yourself a lot of compassion on this journey.

Carolon Donnally
Absolutely.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Because the, the beliefs, the water is so strong around you, right? Like, it’s so exhausting to swim upstream, that, you know, even as a business owner, right? I mean, as a business owner, I have moments of, oh, I should be doing more, I should be more active on social media, I should be, right. Like, and you have these moments, and then it’s just like, oh I’m okay with where we’re at and what we’re doing and how are showing up. And you know, and and, you know, that was something my business coach, Mary, actually, she was just like, “What, do you want to be a scalable company? Or do you want to be like a lifestyle company? like, make that choice, and then be intentional. And even though we we, as a company, all of my colleagues and I are very much on, how do we build a company for humans? What does that look like to celebrate rest? What does it look like to slow down? What does it look like to not work crazy hours? And you know, not even that, but just like, we don’t work more than – well, I do because I’m the business owner, that’s a little bit different. But you know, full time is 32 hours. And, and yet, even when consciously, that’s what you want, to give yourself some grace when that little nasty voice comes up, because that’s, you’ve been living in that water for so long.

You know, one of the things that I feel like I find, and I’ve, I’ve observed this in other people too, who are choosing differently and speaking up and speaking out, like, you know, I’m just like, I’m just going slower. I’m just doing less, I’m not going to all the events or – that often people will respond almost like I didn’t realize that was an option. You know what I mean? I want to share a quick story. So I was I was getting crispy. This was a couple years ago. I mean, I always have, like, I go in cycles of crispiness, but in this particular crispy moment, and I was feeling overwhelmed by the number of people who are wanting to connect, which is like a great, beautiful, like, I love talking to people. And you know, I’m barely talking to my family, and I’m barely talking, right? And I’m and, and my, my, a good friend of mine. She said, what if? What if? What if you sent messages to all those people who are like, hey, I want to pick your brain. I want to go have coffee, I want to, you know, what if instead of feeling obligated to say yes, what if you pushed back and said, I’m really really flattered. Like I’m really, like I’m honored that you want to spend time with me. And setting boundary which is real hard, especially for like, women, I know me as like Midwest white woman boundaries is not something we’re taught. She’s like, what if you just said right now I’m giving my focus to these three things. My clients, my health and my family. And so at this time, I’m not taking on. And she helped me draft the like email. And I was terrified to send this email because I thought what will people think of me because – you’re – just shoulding, right, like all of it. And what, what surprised me was how many people responded, that’s amazing. I need to do that. And I’d forgotten I’d forgotten that. And I feel that way when I’m talking to people and they’re like, I’m just gonna do nothing. And you’re like, right, that’s an option. I forget that’s an option.

Carolon Donnally
Ah, but you know, the reality is when you start leaning into doing that more than it gets more and more comfortable. Like I did not used to be, I did not use to do this particular thing that I do. Where I, if I am at like, like, I know, like, we have like a community meeting thing that I get together with a couple folks with and it’s getting late in the the evening, and you know, we’re kind of winding down their larger conversation, and I will, I will be the person who’s just like, all right, well, I love all of you. And I’m going home. (laughter) And literally, literally like you can see people kind of like saying, oh, one, I didn’t even know – what like she said that out loud.

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)

Carolon Donnally
I will be like, good night, good night. And I’m out. (laughter) I did not used to be that person. I would like, mill around and like, oh, you know, everybody’s okay, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It was getting later and later. And I’m like, and I got tired of the internal turn of like, and I want to go home, you know, and I started instead of internalizing that, and like wrestling with it for forever. I started externalizing it, and it started liberating other people. And so the more that I do it, the more that I recognize that it liberates others. And so therefore, I do it more because of the fact that I want everybody to be free.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It feels like a really beautiful place for us to wind down our conversation. Carolon we clearly need to have you back. Like, there’s so much and I would be remiss if I didn’t ask you the question we ask all of our first time guests. You know, in the spirit of conversations and how they can change us, whether it’s conversations with ourselves and other people, what is a conversation you’ve had either with yourself or with someone that was transformative for you?

Carolon Donnally
Yeah, so in my Master’s of Science and Organizational Development from Pepperdine, that, that that whole journey, were many conversations that completely changed my life. And I do not say that lightly at all. But I remember time and time again, being faced with the questions of what conversations am I having with myself, that is informing how I am showing up in different moments. And I tell you what, (laughs) I had to come to some reckoning about how I’m talking to myself about what’s happening, how I’m talking to myself about the people that I’m interacting with in different moments. And being able to make a switch in my brain around how I’m having those conversations. Whether or not I’m being kind to myself, whether or not I am being judgmental, or whatever. And being able to recognize that and then being able to notice what I need to do in order for me to shift or have a different kind of conversation with different kinds of outcome or whatever. That recognizing transformed my entire life. That understanding that the conversations that I’m having with myself that those are impacting the way that I’m showing up in the world, completely changed my life.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. And I love the example you shared at the end too of just like I started to externalize what was happening internally like given that, that is such a gift. I want to spend all day with you. But we can’t. Next time.

Carolon Donnally
I know we will.

Sarah Noll Wilson
We will. Okay so for people who are interested in connecting with you and learning more about your work, what’s the best way for people to connect with you.

Carolon Donnally
So you can connect with me on LinkedIn. It’s Carolon C A R O L O N Donnally, D O N N A L L Y on LinkedIn. I’m probably the only one there. Or you can connect with me on my website. It’s the same name. Carolon-Donnally dot com. Sign up for my newsletter to get little bite size pieces of burnout prevention tips, all that. So those would be the best ways to connect. LinkedIn or on my website.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Awesome. Thank you so much for doing the work you do and saying yes to this conversation today.

Carolon Donnally
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
A quick note of correction to myself. I had quoted Dr. Jason Frischman as being the guest who talked about human beings, not human doings. And well, we had an amazing conversation on that episode. It was Kristen Harcourt who was the one who said that so I wanted to make sure I gave her the credit that was due. Our guest this week has been Carolon Donnally. And I have a list of things that I’m holding on to – that idea of we all just got tired of wearing our masks. (mind blown sound) Also that hurry sickness, and the work withdrawal. I felt like she was talking about me. And then that practice of just how do we rest more regularly so we can transition through that was just so powerful.

And we always want to hear from you. We love to hear from you. So please be sure to drop us a note on what resonated for you. What were moments that made you go, Oh, boy. And you can always do that by sending me an email at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson.com. Otherwise, you can find me on social media, or my DMs are always open. And if we aren’t connected on LinkedIn, please be sure to send me an invitation. And let’s connect there. And if you’d like to support the show, please rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. That helps us get exposure so we can continue to have great conversations and guests like we did today with Carolon. And another way you can support the show is by becoming a patron, you can go to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where your financial support will not only get you some cool swag, it’ll also support this incredible team that makes this show possible. Speaking of which, let’s give them some love. Right. I’m in front of the mic, but they’re the ones who make this all look and sound good. So to our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, marketing consultant ksn marketing services, and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. I’m so fortunate to work with such amazing people. And just a big wholehearted thank you to Carolon Donnally for coming on the show and sharing her incredible insight and wisdom. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening and joining us each week. And remember, when we change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So I look forward to seeing you next week. Please be sure to rest and rehydrate. Take care everyone.