Episode 058: A Conversation on Readiness for Change with Dr. Teresa Peterson

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Dr. Teresa Peterson as they discuss the idea of Readiness for Change. What factors can impact people’s readiness to learn and change behavior, and what can leaders do to support them?

About Our Guest

Dr. Teresa Peterson is the Director of Learning and Development for Sarah Noll Wilson, Inc. In her daily work, she serves as Sarah’s key content collaborator. Teresa enjoys facilitating, researching, and is passionate about applying best practices for learning to make our experiences meaningful, engaging, and accessible for all types of learners. Teresa holds a Doctorate in Education from the University of Northern Iowa and brings over twenty years of experience teaching, facilitating, and leading to our team. Our clients love Teresa’s grounded energy, depth of thought, and ability to listen deeply.

Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello, and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and each other. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, and joining me is one of our favorite guests a`nd one of my favorite people. Dr. Teresa Peterson.

Dr. Teresa Peterson
(sings) Do didaloo. Hello Sarah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
So for those of you who are just tuning in and haven’t had a chance to meet Dr. – I don’t have your bio, I realized because you’re just like – you’re now, you’re just part of the show, like you just show up periodically when we need to talk about something. So just a little bit of background for those of you who are just meeting Teresa for the first time. Teresa is our Director of Learning and Development. She does an incredible amount of work with our clients. We work closely together on research, and how do we think about learning differently. And how do we create experiences that will be really meaningful. So as you can hear in her name, she has her Doctorate of Education, she spent a number of decades in the education space before joining our work, and generally is an amazing person. She also – what else should you know about Teresa? She is a frontier nurse. So you know, like, you –

Dr. Teresa Peterson
Bring that hurt pa right over here. And I’ll take care of it. (laughter)

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s her ability to nurture and to heal things out in the wilderness. (laughter) She keeps earning new badges. So welcome. Welcome, Teresa.

Dr. Teresa Peterson
Thanks Sarah. That’s a fun one, that feels like and for anyone listening. It’s a made up thing. So if you if you want to become one, too, you just set your own criteria and go for it. You know, there’s no formal certification. (laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Right. If you want, if you want some like badges made, go to Etsy, I’m sure you can find some artists to like, actually create badges. But we were – one it’s been a while since we’ve had you on the show. I think the last time was the end of last year 2022. We did a reflection and you know, what we thought would be interesting was one to have you back on because it’s well over time. But two, you know, to talk about some of the things that influence how we think about work, how we think about how we show up in our relationships, how we think about our own learning journey. And that is this idea of readiness for change. You know, and if you think about what that has to do with conversations, everything. If we are wanting to have conversations with ourselves or other people to influence and change behaviors, it’s really important for us to understand where is the other person or even where am I at, from a readiness to change? Because the thing we know is that change isn’t going to happen until somebody is ready and willing. So Theresa, I guess just you know, kick us off. And you know what comes up for you? Or what do you think is important for us to – where should we start with this?

Dr. Teresa Peterson
This is – I hadn’t intended to start here but listening to that fabulous jumping off point you gave us – for anyone listening who has ever been engaged in potty training. Like, you will understand this concept immediately. That if someone isn’t ready, you’re just not going to make a lot of progress. And you’re gonna be really frustrated, and you might not be the one ready. There’s something magical about learning in that moment that really translates even though I don’t think we’ve ever talked about it, Sarah. But there’s – when we’re thinking about really changing behavior in a very lasting way, someone has to be ready. You know, and I think that’s – when we think about folks that we meet all the time. Sometimes they’re looking for these enormous changes, maybe very valid enormous changes. But people aren’t there yet. Right? And so there are always conversations or that push pull of how do you either help people get ready, make people get ready. Those those thoughts are coming up for me and I’m smiling, thinking about a few calls we’ve had that always stick out in my mind related to you know, forcing people to be ready for this exciting learning journey. You know, get ready, get excited! And when I think about this topic of readiness for learning, readiness for change, I’m thinking about the late and great Grant Wiggins, who said you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him thirsty. Which is a very different way of thinking about learning than like the act of just drinking. Right? That is the desire to want to do it. And you can’t force that upon someone. So I think that’s where my mind is at as we start this conversation.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s, you know, it is something that we, I mean, we see, we see quite often in our work with clients who, you know, maybe there’s a big, like you said, a big change initiative, and how do we just get people excited and ready? You know, maybe you have a leader who, or someone who’s behaving in ways that’s not very productive. And it’s maybe not so overt, that it’s like, cause for some kind of, I don’t know, discipline, but it’s enough that it’s like, we need to start changing this behavior. And, you know, maybe the person is deflecting, maybe they’re blaming, but they’re not taking any kind of ownership. And maybe you’re struggling, right, like maybe, maybe you’re, you’re thinking like God, I really want to get get in shape. And I, like I want it. But there’s, there’s something that’s just getting in the way. And obviously, like when we talk about habit building, and all of that there’s lots of layers to all all of this.

But one of the models that we sort of use as a reference just from a standpoint of assessing, you know, when anytime we’re working with clients, we are trying to assess, what’s the readiness level? Because what we bring to the table for a solution is going to look very different. You know, a team that is maybe having some trust issues and doesn’t even want to talk about said trust issues, that’s going to look very different than a team that goes, Hey, we have trust issues, and I think we can figure this out. And where they’re at is going to look very different. So the “readiness for change” model comes from – you know, I wish I knew who created it first – but really started in the world of addiction, you know, motivational interviewing, as part of what comes along with this. But basically, you can think about people’s readiness for change in a couple of different ways. The first stage is what we call precontemplative and precontemplative means the person doesn’t realize that there is a change that is necessary. There’s a change that would be beneficial, right? I don’t know what I don’t know, I don’t know that this is a problem. And again, even though this came from the world of addiction, it’s applicable to any kind of behavioral change, and we can see it in our work.

The second one is contemplative. This is where people might start going, okay, like, maybe there’s another way to do this, or maybe this isn’t productive. But there’s still some hesitancy there’s not a commitment yet to making any kind of new actions or change. Right. Maybe they’re still like, yep, there’s a problem but maybe the problem isn’t with me stage, but at least they’re starting to identify. And so then we get into what we call preparation or planning. This is when somebody has recognized, yeah, we need to do something different, or I need to do something different. And they start to put a plan for what that looks like. Now, just because somebody gets to planning or preparation doesn’t mean that they actually go to action. So that’s an important thing to know, like, we sometimes can get stuck depending on where we’re at, in our journey. And then action is you’re taking action, and then you have maintenance, right? Where you’re maintaining, and sometimes you can cycle between all of those. What would you add? What would you add or expand on this, Teresa?

Dr. Teresa Peterson
I think a good disclaimer, maybe like caveat to this idea is that if I’m in a precontemplative stage, if I am not quite there yet, it doesn’t mean I don’t have to participate, it means I have a different starting point. And so I think our friends who are listening, whether you’re thinking about how this fits in your job and organizational development, or in a team that you lead, or even in your own family, it means different starting points. And as I think about the awareness of these different levels, I can’t help but think when I see a part for me that’s missing often in adult learning, it’s that differentiation, right? The entire organization could progress toward the same goal. But folks who are, I’ve got a handful of skills, and I’m ready to keep building these, are in a different spot than folks who are, I don’t even know enough to know if this is for me, or I’m not sure how this is going to fit for me? That those folks are in different spaces. And I think, I think oftentimes, and I absolutely see why this happens, because time is limited, budget can be limited. You’re only pulling folks away. I’m smiling, because that’s a phrase. I can only pull folks away for a certain amount of time. That we give everyone the same treatment, instead of really differentiating, what does someone actually need to keep moving forward with their learning? So as I – you know, my ongoing kind of excitement or rub in this whole equation is, how do we get better about doing that for the adults, and the organizations we serve? Really trying to meet them where they’re at, because because I think what we see sometimes and what we’ve heard from the folks that are, you know, meetings and calls and those we serve is, sometimes if the starting point is too advanced for someone, they just shut down completely. Oh, that wasn’t for me, goodbye, peace out. And then we have the opposite end, where folks feel like I was really ready for more, and I didn’t get it. And both of those feelings are very common, and frustrating. So I think that’s an envelope I’m excited to keep pushing folks too.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, that that point, that point about, you know, where people are at, because what can happen, what, what I see happen is that people can get really frustrated when they’re ready to take action, and somebody’s still back on contemplative, right?

Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Or may you know, or another way you can think about it – another language you might think about is resistance, caution, wait and see, I’m ready to experiment, now I’m ready to co-create. If I’m in co-creation space, and this comes from the work of conversational intelligence. If I’m ready, like, yeah, I’m excited, let’s do this, let’s figure it out and someone else is in sort of a full resistance space, that can be, it can be really frustrating. And it can be exhausting sometimes. And then what can happen is we can get frustrated with the person and we can – like the ripple effect of erosion of trust and all of this happens, instead of just recognizing where they are, and realizing that what they need is going to look different than what you need or what someone else needs to move forward. And that that differentiation piece that that you spoke about so eloquently is such an important piece, because I think – I think some of the traps we can fall into is that I assume people are where I’m at, related to the change, whether that is me being ready, or me being cautious and skeptical, and like what the hell you guys all doing? Like we haven’t even thought about X, Y, and Z. And we haven’t we haven’t moved forward. And so so you know, one of the things that that you can think about for people who are interested in learning more is how you approach a conversation with somebody who may be, you know, kind of all signs point to your perception is that they’re not ready or willing, right, there may be in that precontemplative. They don’t realize that there’s an issue or an opportunity to do things differently. You know, you just, you may approach that conversation a little bit different, whether that may be like connecting to what’s important to them, helping them think through potential consequences, right? We’re not even getting to what we need to do, we’re trying to help them understand potentially the cost of not doing something.

I was just working with somebody, and you know, she was just like chomping at the bit to be like, and here’s the problem. And here’s, here’s like, here’s why you need to change. And like I don’t know about anyone else, but somebody’s telling you, here’s why you need to change is almost never gonna go well. You know, but but helping them understand like, here’s, here’s the cost, right? Like, what what are we what are we losing by continuing to do it this way? Or what might you gain if we could explore it a different way? Or, you know, in our work, it might be, you know, one of the things I know is important to you is integrity. And I’m curious, like how, how this behavior aligns with those, right, with that value? Are you having the impact you want to make? And so which, again, is very different. And Teresa, I’m curious to hear from your educational background, but the thing that, the thing that I have observed is that somebody moving from that precontemplative to contemplative to preparation, one sometimes can be a really big shift. Like it can take a lot to get to that point. But I, I feel like what I’ve experienced is it almost has to be, to be really effective, it has to be internally driven. Meaning that there might be some external pressures or factors that can then spur the internal, right, like, hey, if we do not change this, you’re going to lose your job is a pretty big sense of urgency. And some people in those moments, still don’t really connect with the need for change. They do it because they have to, while other people go, Oh, this is a wake up call, I need to really reflect on what I’m doing. This isn’t how I want to show up. So I’m curious, like from a learning perspective, and your background in education, what does that look like when we’re looking at students, for example?

Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah, that’s a great question. As you can imagine, my brain could go a lot of directions and probably needs a hot minute to process this, but some things that are coming up for me right away. If you’re in a position of witnessing someone making this shift, right, if you’re maybe you’re the manager, or maybe you’re the learning and development person in your organization, the most pivotal thing to not do is say, “I told you you get there!” Or something to the extent of like, “Finally!”

Sarah Noll Wilson
“I said it wouldn’t be so bad, I told you so.” My favorite, it’s one of my favorite phrases.

Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah. (laughs) I think if we think about it through this concept of someone drinking out of compliance or actually becoming thirsty, right? Like, our job is to make this experience so interesting. So curious that the picture of what is possible is so clear that you can’t help but wonder what place you might have in it, right? That you are kind of drawn to it. Even if you still might have the permission to dismiss it after a while, you know, but but you probably won’t, because you’ll be in it by then. Right? But giving that awareness to someone very early on that they’re still in control. You can’t change their mind for them. But you’re hoping you can go along together. Because something that came up for me as you were talking, when we’re thinking about behavior change, and we’re thinking about adults, especially, you know, adults, kids are quite savvy too. But adults in the workplace are pretty savvy. And so this idea of the performative aspect of learning versus actual real learning and behavior change that is much clumsier, much sloppier we have more missteps. You know, it’s a loud process sometimes. And by performative, I mean, we have all worked with someone who – you know, I’m thinking of a guy I worked with, in particular, but there are hundreds or millions, potentially of examples, but he, he could look at a book and just memorize the key terms, and then (snaps) just like, spout them out, just like, “Well, you know, what they say about X, Y, Z.” He knew nothing about it, really. And he had implemented none of the things, but because he could recall those key words and those details, everyone really thought he was doing it. And it was, not only did it not really do anything for him or his team, but it robbed others, I think of real learning, because they perceived that he was so far ahead. You know, I think that’s another watch out, whether you’re the manager or again, the L&D person or even in your house, like people, the mistake is assuming people will all be at the same level. That’s the mistake, the mistake is not that people are all over the place, because that’s what humans do. That’s who we are. You know, I’m picturing, you’ve got someone who’s been on the team for 30 years, and you have someone who joined mid pandemic, and is still connecting and learning the ropes, those folks are probably at different places. We know we have lots of folks who changed jobs during the pandemic, and those folks are likely still using a lot of their energy learning how your organization functions. And so they might need another starting point to learning than someone who’s very established. So again, I think the issue isn’t that people are in different places, it’s that we assume they’re all where I’m at, or they should all be here. And whenever we hear that, “should” I know we both kind of (shutters), kind of bristle up, yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, one of the things that we we know about behavior change, and also that there may be some gaps is, you know, this idea of people have to understand. They have to have a strong connection to the sense of importance, to why does this matter. Also self efficacy and how confident am I that I can figure this out? And you know, and what we’ve learned in our work, especially with immunity to change, is that when we think about building new behaviors, or new habits, that sometimes having a high sense of urgency and clear steps isn’t enough, you know. Just for people, you know, there’s interesting research that’s been done. If you look at like heart patients, for example, you know, people who are literally told life or death, right, if you do not make these changes to your diet, your exercise, you’ll die, right? Like worst case scenario, you die. Best case scenario, you’re just going to be sick for a really long time. So the sense of importance is probably as high as possible. Self efficacy maybe depends on the person, but what what research has found is that only one in seven will actually make the changes they need to. Which I think is pretty, pretty profound and provocative. And I think that when we think about this idea of readiness for change, one of the places we can explore is like what assumptions are we holding or as you so lovingly say, what assumptions are holding us that might be getting in our way.

Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah, you know, as you were talking, and we shouldn’t underestimate that even starting by identifying assumptions, if you’re in that precontemplative stage, that’s a great starting point. What assumptions am I holding about what might be possible with this? Or when I hear the word, you know, trust, I just, you know, XYZ. Like really uncovering what my resistance about, what assumptions am I making? That’s actually a really good starting point. And I think the other thing I want to echo is, even when we’re really ready for action, we see the we see the purpose, we’re excited, learning isn’t as easy as flipping a switch. Even when we’re very excited. And I, that’s a common trap we see folks fall into in all aspects of life, but particularly work that, “But everybody was so excited, and we had our training, and then what happened?” You know, well, you can be as excited as it gets, but we like to call it orbital learning, we need to revisit, we need to go around, we need to deepen. We need that ongoing support to really implement or really make a change stick. That’s – learning – as much as we would love to think that the most magical, you know, bippity, boppity, boo experience. Tada! I’m just transformed. I mean, look what happened to poor Cinderella. Like the clock struck. She didn’t have the support she needed to keep it going. Not sure what made me think of her but it felt so right, you know, in that moment, but you need that ongoing support. And ideally, the bigger the change, the higher the support, and then the support can taper down over time. You know, I think sometimes people think, does that mean, we’re going to be holding people’s hands for the next seven years? Or you know, I don’t know, we hear all sorts of fun things. But as skill develops, then you taper down the support. And the issue isn’t that that has to happen. The issue is that we think it doesn’t need to happen, you know, that’s the issue. So I always love to give a push on that.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, and so let’s talk about what support can look like. Yeah, because we see that, we certainly see that a lot like we did the, we did the two hour training and people aren’t, aren’t doing it.

Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And it’s not, it might have nothing to do with the fact that they don’t think it’s important. Maybe some people are like, I don’t think it’s important, but other people will be like, yeah, I want this. Like, it is a messy process. When we use that term orbital learning, that’s a phrase that we coined from the standpoint of every time we revisit a topic, every time we talk about it, every time we reflect on it, every time we are practicing, and experimenting, and then right, like, and each time we’re going deeper. And sometimes I think, especially for whether it’s high achievers, we can forget that it took us some time to get the expertise that we got. That it wasn’t something that just came overnight. And so we evaluate ourselves of like, yeah, but I know all of this really confidently. Well, you know, all of this confidently, because you’ve been on this journey for 15 years, or 20 years or five years or what, whatever it may be. So what are some of those like, you know, ways we can think about supporting, supporting our learning and supporting, you know, the moments of education on the back end?

Dr. Teresa Peterson
That’s a beautiful question. So one of my favorites that I think is absolutely underutilized is calling attention to it when you see it done well. Recognizing it, I use the term rewards and people often push back like, oh, I need to get someone a gift card every time. No, social rewards, right, recognizing someone how they like to be recognized, whether that’s in front of the group or a sticky note on their desk, or, you know, a star emoji, you know on the Zoom.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Teresa has been known to throw up a rewarding emoji, hand clapping, heart, heart in the chat.

Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah. Call attention to what you see that’s working the positive shift, or, again, in the spirit of maybe someone who’s very early on or kind of in that pre contemplative or contemplative. Acknowledging if they aren’t doing something that gets in the way, maybe like they used to, right. I’m thinking of the work of immunity to change and that there are actions, things we do that get in the way, and maybe we’re working on just not doing those things. So celebrating and calling attention to the behavior you want to see, which could look like you know, I’m thinking about maybe you’re working on challenging one another respectfully in meetings, and someone has a great intro. You know, “Sarah, I really want to step into this. I know we’re all working on this. So it here goes.” Right, and then XYZ and someone else says, Oh, I saw it. That was good. Right? So, so recognizing each other. The other thing is, we have this idea sometimes that we can have this great experience, and then it’s over and done. And then everyone seems to just march on and instantaneously implement this or embedded into their daily lives without any reminders or support. And I’m thinking of our friend Kai Gillespie, who calls this aftercare. She likes to think of it as after the event, which for her, she almost describes like a birth, like, after the birth, what is the aftercare? What support do you need afterwards, as you’re finding your way? This might look like dedicated time in a one on one check in. You know, I know the word accountability partners is very popular, it could also be like a learning partner. I know we have, “gotta call it accountability or must not be worth anything,” right, sometimes is how I feel but could be a learning partner. It could be a small group, like, learning cohort, we’ve certainly done that before. Some follow up team coaching, because the other thing I’ll share, and we’ve seen this firsthand, with adult learners, is even knowing that after this training we’re going to have three kind of follow ups, whether it’s a Q&A, or a fireside, or a mastermind, like all sorts of things you can do. Seeing those on the calendar reminds your brain more is coming on this right. Like, I better stay tuned into that, because it’s not over yet. Which I love on a lot of levels.

There are some times folks who are in that precontemplative or kind of resistant phase, because they’ve lived through so many of these one and dones. I mean, I certainly have, I’m sure all of us have where the desire or or the drive to plug in is minimal because you’re like, well, this isn’t really, I’m never going to see this again. So I guess I’ll just either be passive or just play nice for the two hours. So seeing that it’s on the calendar again, tells even your most reluctant, you know, participants, this isn’t going away, right. That we’re going to be revisiting this. And then for the people who are already there, and want to dig in and want to do more, that’s like a kid in a candy store, you know, they’re ready to go back and get some support on this. So that’s a structure that’s one of my personal favorites. Sarah, what comes up for you?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I think in addition to what you shared, I really love that point you made about like getting things on the calendar. So it’s just a reminder, it’s just like a reminder of what we talked about and the work we’re doing or trying to do or wanting to do, is don’t underestimate the power of just having some conversations around it. What did you learn? When did you miss an opportunity? When did you feel like you hit the mark? You know, and that’s, and we’re talking about that through a more formal corporate, but even, you know, think about it one on one conversations, like one on one relationships of taking some time to reflect and go, Hey, I really appreciated that we could have that conversation. I know, that wasn’t easy for either of us and I’m really glad that we could talk about that, is reinforcing. I think that one of the traps that we see certainly from a corporate perspective, is this idea that change doesn’t happen unless there’s this perfectly created document, this perfectly created plan, project plan, this, you know, like here, here it is, here’s your one sheeter on what we’ve learned, and we we dismiss or undervalue the learning that’s actually happening in the moments. I mean, I think that we certainly, we see that, we see that with clients who are like, “Yeah, but when do we get to the plan? Like, that’s when the work begins.” And it’s like, no, the work has already begun. The work began when you started asking different questions, and were in conversations with yourselves and other people differently. Like this is, this is the work. What would you say, Teresa? You know, what would you say to someone who is in a situation, whether it’s maybe a child, maybe it’s a partner or family member, maybe it’s a co-worker, a colleague, that, you know that there’s a real there is a real sense of urgency for some change? Like maybe, you know, here’s the situation. There’s things a leader is doing that’s causing some harm, and the leader doesn’t see it. Right. doesn’t want to see it, whatever the case is. What what message, what practices or perspectives would you invite the person who’s wanting the change to happen? Now, obviously, I know it depends on the situation and the specific, like behaviors. But you know, what can we be thinking about if we find ourselves in a situation being frustrated because of where somebody’s at on their journey?

Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah, that’s a great question. And I agree, it depends quite a bit, you know how much harm is being done. And so I, I love – I hope you’re wearing your It Depends t-shirt over there. (laughter) But something that came up for me, the value of asking some good questions. And the good questions might be, you know, my perspective is XYZ and then you see that their perspectives isn’t the same. I think some questions along the lines of, “What would it take for you to see that this might be happening. What would it take for you to see that this could be going on and having the impact?” I think getting a sense of, and it depends who I’m working with, like the classic. I’m going back to my, my dear friend, I wish we were actually friends, Grant Wiggins. But what evidence would you accept that it was happening this way, right, that you were causing harm or those types of things? But, but I think what we can’t ignore is that people often do know what they need, if you give them time to think about it. And this applies to learners all over the place. So we have someone maybe we want to move forward on, you know, we’ve got to change how meetings are happening. They’re too transactional, they’re not transformational enough. People don’t feel they know you, it’s all business. You know, I’m thinking of many, many people we’ve worked with. Asking, what type of support do you need to start making some of those changes? Or how do you process information? This is another thing I think we can work on collectively, as adult learning community is asking people how they like to learn. And I’m not talking about, you know, are you into details? Are you you know, I’m not talking about those things? How do you, how does your brain actually process information? Would you like some articles? Would you like to listen to a podcast about it to, you know, get a little loving push? What types of things do you need to learn and to show up your best self? I’m thinking about folks we work with who are on international teams, and that there could be perceptions of people not being ready, when perhaps there’s a language barrier at play with some of the terminology.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Dr. Teresa Peterson
You know, I think we have to get really curious. And and then, you know, there’s something in there too, about, just because someone isn’t ready today, doesn’t mean they won’t be tomorrow. So I think that’s where you have to determine, you know, is this is this really harmful? Is this not where you’re ready yet? You know, I think Hollywood likes a story about some kid who’s not ready or some grown up and like the door slams, and they come back, you know, tail between their legs. And that’s not how people come back and reengage, right, like you have to keep, keep it ready for them. And that doesn’t mean you wait forever, and it doesn’t mean they get a pass forever. But the people who are often really resistant need to feel that sense of power over their behavior, of their learning, of plugging in. So keeping that sense of power for them and letting them plug in isn’t that difficult, but it takes patience. And I think in in off in the corporate world where, you know, roots in the industrial revolution, and, you know, I don’t hear a lot of time clocks, like buzzing with the shift ending, but it sure is there. You know, like that sense of uniformity, that everyone sits and faces and does and learns. I think that’s, I think that’s really something to consider how we could look differently.

And you know, the other thing I was just thinking about is, there might be situations where someone is willing to do more work, is willing to move out of that state, or maybe make more progress if something else can come off the plate. I mean, we often take for granted there is a limit to how much your brain can do, whether that’s detail work, whether that’s learning and processing new information, when the stress level is extremely high. You know, that is valid. And I think sometimes folks who are feeling the pinches of those things get painted with that brush of being resistant or never participating, when there might be some legitimate things going on. Are there barriers to remove? You know, I think that just makes me think about something we caution clients about often is leap frogging from idea to idea to idea for training, because it does, it does often, not always, but often rob people of their ability to go deep and really work on behavior change. And there’s certainly nothing wrong with exposing people to lots of new ideas and kind of seeing like which one feels the juiciest for us to spend some time on. But, again, often people can be overwhelmed just by the volume of topics they’re facing.

So I guess we started at someone who needs to change their behavior because they’re a little resistant, and what should they be thinking about? And then we went a lot of places, but and I think the answer for that person was it depends. I mean, if there’s a non negotiable, be very honest about it and say, “What do you need to do? What do you need from me to help move closer to this?” Right? I know, sometimes we see places, employers, organizations who have tolerated things way too long, and probably need to give much less choice over how quickly a person meets expectations in some of those areas. And I do believe that most people don’t approach their learning like that. Most people under the right conditions want to plug in, they just might be skeptical, not ready for any number of reasons. And I don’t want to shortchange the stress. You know, we have companies often who reached out, and they want to do a monumental change at the same time, they’re doing about four other monumental changes. And that’s extremely taxing on individuals and teams and organizations. So that’s a caution too about just the readiness of the group.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, just what’s the capacity, even, which is, again, is going to be unique to each person. But certainly, something we’re seeing is that, you know, we’ve been through an incredible amount of uncertainty and complexity and ambiguity and change. And, you know, some familiarity, some sense of control can feel really good. Not always productive, necessarily, but it can feel really good. So how do we, especially as we talk about this through a corporate lens, yeah, just really have a sense of capacity. You know, we can see it when we come, you know, when we come into an organization, and it’s like, oh, your, your hair is all like, everyone’s hair is on fire right now. Right? But you’ve just like tolerated it for so long, it’s just become the new normal. And you don’t realize that there can be another another place to go to. I think I just want to go back to that one point you made. And I think this is a nice place for us to wrap up our conversation. Is that point you made earlier of just because somebody isn’t ready today, doesn’t mean they won’t become ready tomorrow. And you know, and when I think about that, I think that’s one, like, I want that gift. Like I want that gift of, yeah, I might not figure it out today but at some point, I might, or hopefully I will. And, you know, and I can also hear some of the managers in my head going like, “Yeah, but how long have you give them?” Which is, is the perpetual tension of how do we hold people accountable to expectations to what we’re paying them for, while also honoring the complexity of who they are and how they learn and where they are on their journey? But I think that’s a beautiful place of just because we’re not ready today. And this can be true for us individually, too. Just because you’re not in a place that you’re ready today doesn’t mean that you might not be ready or in a different place tomorrow. So with that, Teresa Peterson, –

Dr. Teresa Peterson
Sarah Noll Wilson.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Final thoughts, anything else that you want to share on this, this topic today?

Dr. Teresa Peterson
My final thoughts are, even if your child isn’t ready to potty train today, they might be tomorrow. (laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
Eventually. So hang in there folks who are in that phase of their lives.

Dr. Teresa Peterson
(laughs) You are seen.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show again, as always, and I’ll put this out to the listeners, if there’s topics that you are curious about, you want us to explore, you know, we get the privilege of working with incredible organizations and individuals. We’re thinking about this stuff a lot. You can always send us your questions at podcast @ sarah noll wilson.com and we’ll have Theresa back and we can explore explore further.

Dr. Teresa Peterson
I love that! Listener mailbag.

Sarah Noll Wilson
We should! Listener mailbag.

Dr. Teresa Peterson
Please!

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yes! What are your questions? What are your challenges? What would you like us to explore more deeply? podcast @ sarah noll wilson.com. Thanks so much, Teresa.

Dr. Teresa Peterson
Thank you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guests this week has been my dear colleague, Dr. Teresa Peterson, and I always love when I get to be in conversations with her and I know one of my favorite phrases that she always says is that Grant Wiggins’ one, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it thirsty. You know, and this work of readiness is is necessary and also can be frustrating at times. So hopefully, you know, we were able to share some strategies to have a little bit more grace for yourself and for other people. But also know when there might be times to set boundaries. And we do want to hear from you. Let’s do a mailbag episode, so send us your questions send us your thoughts at podcast @ sarah noll wilson.com. We’d love to hear what resonates for you, and what you’d like to hear more about. And if you’d like to support the show, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. That helps us get exposure and be able to bring on really great guests like my colleague Teresa Peterson. Also, if you want to financially support the show, you can become a patron. You can go to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where your financial contribution support the show and you get access to some pretty great swag.

Huge thank you to our team that makes this podcast possible. Our producer Nick Wilson, our sound editor Drew Noll, transcriptionist Becky Reinert, marketing consultant Kaitlyn Summitt-Nelson, and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. Big thank you to Teresa for joining me today so we could talk about this topic. I look forward to our future conversations together and having you join them. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So please be sure to rest, rehydrate and we’ll see you again next week.