Episode 060: A Conversation on Being Your Best Self at Work and at Home with Uwe Dockhorn

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Uwe Dockhorn as they discuss Uwe’s executive coaching practice and the unique framework he employs to help leaders be their best selves both in the workplace and in their relationships at home.

About Our Guest

Uwe Dockhorn is an executive coach and the founder of The AIM-Experience(TM) for busy executives and their VIPs (the Very Important Partners at home). His 3-part model has been proven in over 17,000 sessions across three continents. Uwe’s clients work with him so they can get their career trajectory moving upward again . . . AND at the same time open the floodgates of fun and intimacy at home. He calls it Work-Life Harmony!

Uwe is on a mission to unlock the latent potential within high-achiever families, elevating the standards of leadership success, and triggering a ripple of positive impact that echoes through generations.

Website | LinkedIn

Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello, and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and each other. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And I’m so excited for our conversation with our guests this week Uwe Dockhorn. We will be exploring the dynamics of relationships and leadership and high achieving individuals and why we need to be thinking about the whole potential. For those of you who have, you know, how he lovingly describes a very important partner at home, listen up, this will be some really beautiful free relationship counseling for you. (laughs) And probably for me, so a little bit about Uwe before we bring him on. He is an executive coach and the founder of The Aim Experience for busy executives and their VIPs, their very important partners at home. I love this. His three part model has been proven in over 17,000 sessions across three continents, Uwe’s clients work with him so that they can get their career trajectory moving forward, upward again, and at the same time, open up the floodgates for fun and intimacy at home. I am (whispers) so excited for this conversation. He calls it work life harmony. And that’s a concept that we’ve talked about in other ways, but you can already hear how this is going to feel a little bit different. Uwe is on a mission to unlock the latent potential within high achiever families, elevating the standards of leadership, success, and triggering a ripple of positive impact that echoes through generations. Welcome to the show Uwe.

Uwe Dockhorn
Well, it’s a pleasure being here. Thank you for this kind introduction.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What else would you like people to know about you?

Uwe Dockhorn
Well, I do like cooking. (laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
Do you? Like what? What’s your favorite type of – do you like discovering new, you know, meals? Do you have classic ones that you just love and savor the experience of cooking them?

Uwe Dockhorn
Well, it’s one of the joys I just, you know, also came with traveling, also being a lot of times in Italy when I was younger, and you know, still, the love for cooking was always kind of like there and just creating something. So it’s always there. So, unfortunately, so I cannot eat everything any longer, I’m on a diet, but I still can eat meat, which is important to me, fish and vegetables. And so I’m right on that and I prepare all my stuff for myself. So I really love doing that. And it’s kind of like, meditative form of like, just checking out to some extent.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It can be a task that not many people love. I may be one of those. Sometimes. But when there is a – we’re making this, you know, something really special. There is something about just savoring the process of it. So I have to ask, what’s your favorite – like, what’s one of your favorite meals to make?

Uwe Dockhorn
I do love my my salad. And (laughs) it sounds so boring. (unintelligible)

Sarah Noll Wilson
So do you have like recipes? Wait, no, wait, do you have like recipes for these salads? Because. (laughs)

Uwe Dockhorn
Yes. (laughter) It’s a combination of it’s a Romana salad. And then you know, there is, you know, there’s some some scampi in it and also some black olives, tomatoes. And I don’t use vinegar, I use lime juice. Fresh fresh pressed lime with it. And yeah, and also some awesome some purple. So which is also very nice. And yeah, it’s it’s really refreshing, especially when it’s getting hotter outside.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Uwe Dockhorn
And so other than that steak, (laughs) and vegetables. I would, you know, this is really kind of like it was so crazy because it was a couple years ago I had food poisoning. I just really racked up everything. And so after that I lost, I think I don’t know how much is in pounds, but I count in kilos. So, eight kilos. It was a ton. It was really a massive loss. And then I just regained it so fast. And after one year I had kind of like a stomach bug and I didn’t know what it was. I just, I just explored it and then I went to a very good physician and we just identified what I can eat, what not. And, but I really love because I love cooking. So I was like so I was going into kind of like so okay, what is good for me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Uwe Dockhorn
And that is just the parts that I eat now and this is good for me and it just was getting used to it and now I’m just constantly on my same weight and I was good.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, there’s some metaphor in here. You know, of – I love that language you are using of you know what’s good for me? What, you know, what is it that you need because I’m, you know, reflecting on my own dietary journey. And so often we eat things that affect us but we just get so used to tolerating the discomfort and the bloating and the whatever. And I’m like, I think there’s a metaphor for work and our toleration and in our relationships, we just, you know, get used to the bloat, this is going to be our transition into the conversation.

Uwe Dockhorn
I can see it coming. So it’s about healthcare, –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it is.

Uwe Dockhorn
Mental health –

Sarah Noll Wilson
All of it.

Uwe Dockhorn
And more.

Sarah Noll Wilson
One, you know, one of the things that, so you and I connected a few months ago, and I was privileged to be on your show, and one of the things that struck me about just learning more about the work you do is that that journey of moving from working with leaders to then looking at their whole system, their home system, as well. And I think that’s a really, it’s a really unique perspective and focus that you have in the work you do so, so take us back what what has been your journey to this point, and then we can start to dig into more specifically the type of work you do, and you’re so passionate about?

Uwe Dockhorn
Sure. So, as I said to you earlier, so I want to dive a little deeper here. And just to caution, you know, if this, it’s going to be very emotional, a little bit tragic, what happened to me, and where it all started. So really, six days before Christmas, 2016, my mother died. And I always cherished that I was there for her and holding her hands when she left and see I loved my family, and was really my safe haven. And although they gave me you know, the love and protection as a young boy, I was sexually abused and told no one. And then after I lost two very important family members, my uncle when I was 16, and my father when I was 23, something just broke inside. And I started to believe that, you know, the remaining members of my family had given up on me, and I distanced myself from them, even my mother because I felt I couldn’t risk opening up to them. And I became isolated, separated from friends lost my job, was overwhelmed physically and emotionally exhausted, and felt there was no reason for being in this world, I was burned out. And I wasn’t sad or angry. You know, the truth is, I didn’t feel anything at all. And that’s when I found myself on the edge of a bridge, one cold winter night, then I could see my breath as I slowly lean forward, and I let go.

But at that moment, something happened. For the very first time, since my father had died, I felt something inside me. And it drew me literally turning back from jumping, and it literally saved my life. And that night, I learned an important lesson, I learned that transformation requires more than letting go of the status quo. And you know, without the other half of the equation, letting go just leaves you in free fall. And if all I had done on the bridge was let go, and I would not be here talking to you today. So you’re probably wondering what is the other half? Well, the second half of the equation is to feel, perceive and let in what is already there. Letting go and letting in, it’s a two part mechanism, and they are only complete as a pair. So on that bridge, all those years ago, I let in a small spark that grew into a powerful flame. And I made myself a promise that I’m still keeping today and to make it my life’s mission to help others learn this secret. Because letting go and letting in is crucial for your well being, your career trajectory, and your family’s happiness. It’s really about letting in the energy, positive thoughts and a sense of certainty. Letting go of self doubt, fear, negativity and stress. It really is that simple. And the more you do it, the more it happens. It’s just like a switch that you can consciously flip to strengthen and re-energize your relationship with your partner every single day. And this is also why you’re letting go and letting in switch is is your own anti burnout system and it even can divorce proof your marriage and help you to become a better leader.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s – I appreciate you, you sharing your story and you know, there’s a couple of things that are coming up for me is the, the description of numbness. I think that sometimes you know, when we talk about mental health challenges, and we talk about things like depression, and you know, even burnout, it might not always be painful, it might just be nothing. Which I think sometimes can be a scarier place to be in than – what, you know – what for you, so let’s dig into this idea of letting go, letting in and you and you described it really quickly, but my brain was on to something else. So repeat again, you know, what is that practice of letting go and letting in? And what does that what does that look like for somebody who’s, who’s who’s been really intentional about that?

Uwe Dockhorn
So this is, it’s an excellent question. So let’s dive a little deeper. So my, my clients, you know, I help them to really practice letting go and letting in. This is at the core of everything. So first, you know, you have to identify, you know, your false beliefs. We talked about elephants, you use elephants in your work, I use elephant thinking, kind of like the equivalent of false beliefs. And we all have those, and we have created them. And so what we are taught typically is that, well, we need to let go of things in our lives, and somehow accept to change. But from my experience, you can be more proactive about that you can be really more practical and tangible about that, because the moment I described just a couple of minutes ago, is really that moment, when we are so focused on letting go, having missed the opportunity to see, feel, perceive and let in what else is there in that very moment. So that we can just let in that and I’m already having goosebumps, you know, me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, you love the goosebumps.

Uwe Dockhorn
That’s the moment when you also create your own goosebumps, right. Because then you’re opening yourself up at that moment internally. And it’s, it’s an emotional openness, that you embrace what else is inside of you. And before you just kind of like, always try to let go things and it can be hard sometimes, over the years, and you know, even decades, when when we look back, and we have kind of like this extraordinary incident, as I always call it in the past, we all have those. Mine was a bit more tragic, of course, than others. But we all have these, these extraordinary incidents. And in our confusion in the past, we are reacting to that incident. And therefore we program ourselves with something like I don’t belong, I’m good enough, I can’t. And there are 1000s of others, of course. And so that is kind of like what sticks in our belief system, what we programmed it. And then over the years, over time, you know, our belief system works, you know, and we create patterns in our life. And then we create all these patterns are, you know, resulting in our behavior. So every time we want to change something, I call it also walk like an Egyptian. (laughs) You’re wanting to go into a new direction, you know, we’re always carried in that direction that our elephant thinking or our false belief, you know, we are programmed it. So it doesn’t work. And therefore we kind of like see all the time these are the reoccurring patterns in our life, and like, oh, gosh, I thought I have dealt with it years ago, and it’s still showing up. Why do I always end up in a similar relationship with kind of like a similar partner. So we never get an answer to that. So these are these deeper questions over the years and decades even. And people start to believe at one point, well, that’s just who I am.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Uwe Dockhorn
But that cannot be further from the truth because that is what we allowed ourselves to be true. And that’s why I, my work is always very deep, I’m German that helps. Really going to the root causes of things and helping people to identify the core elephant thinking. What is it exactly, what’s there? And then from that experience, to let go of that and let in at the same time, you know, something else that is more positive and, and hopeful. That’s how you reprogram yourself, internally. And you start by kind of like who can I be? So you’re in it, the identity, this is the identity shift, which is the most important piece, and it takes work to get to that place. That’s kind of like my preparation. That’s what the activation, the A in AIM-Experience stands for, because then comes the implementation, and then the manifestation. And that’s what the acronym stands for. So essentially, you know, when, when you have had this, this, this very deep experience about really feeling like going through your own rock bottom. And I’m on your side, literally walking with you these steps in a session. And you go on the other side, and you reprogram yourself, and you get out of that, we created a new experience, a new memory. And that helps you to fall back when you get out there and start implementing, letting go and letting in because of course, just doing it once – nope.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Nope. A brain needs lots of patterns.

Uwe Dockhorn
Exactly.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Those old patterns, that elephant thinking is very deep. And those patterns are very short for our brain to go into. What and when you when you’re working with individuals, what are some of the most common false beliefs that you see people hold that have a negative impact on their ability to be their true selves, to show up at their best, to have the kind of relationships they want to, the kind of work they do? What what are some of those most common limiting beliefs that you see?

Uwe Dockhorn
Why, as I just said, so you know that the typical suspects that we all kind of, like always know, in, you know, in handbooks, and you know, they’re all listed there, you know, they all occur, but sometimes, you know, I realized that, of course, as I mentioned, “I don’t belong, I’m good enough.” And I think at some time, I’ve created a list, and they were kind of like really hundreds of them. (laughs) And so I, everything you can imagine, but sometimes it’s tricky to really find kind of like the right combination in the right situation. And I also say that there is not only elephant thinking, there’s also elephant feeling. Because sometimes, and I had this with a couple of clients that it wasn’t a thinking, what they taught himself in the past, it was a body reaction. So for example, one client, she kind of like was used to ran out of the room, as a reaction.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.

Uwe Dockhorn
Not facing what’s going on, it’s getting hot –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, flight.

Uwe Dockhorn
In a situation, flight. So what was the situation? And it turned out it was a situation in the youth where her mother kind of like, wasn’t that kind to her. And she really thought, not thought but felt, I’m only safe in my room, I’m only safe in my room. She were thinking that but it manifested more in the body reaction, because we took really long to really get to that point to understand, Oh, it’s that, that the body reaction and there it was embedded. And since then, really going to that point to really being able to let that go and replace it with something else. That is when when when when the magic happens, this is when you crack your code of transformation, you know. That is when you start shifting, and therefore you need to – I would say kind of like, you know, the more important than identifying at the beginning, when you when you start thinking about this is kind of like more like what are the patterns? What are recurring patterns in your life? So because that is because these things are kind of like very tricky sometimes. And they can appear in periods of like, 7, 14 years, 21 years. And so I was like, wow, this is happening again? (chuckles)

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and we, I think that, you know, I’m very pro therapy. (laughs) I’m very pro doing the deeper work and it can be really easy – well, a couple of thoughts that are coming up for me, you know, one is that a lot of our patterns of how we think and feel were created from when we’re younger. And we don’t even realize that some of those protection mechanisms, well that was created when I was eight, and I didn’t have the thinking brain that I have now, didn’t have access to that.

Uwe Dockhorn
Exactly.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, and then the other thing is, you know, something that I’ve had to learn on my journey through you know, my panic disorder and ADHD and OCD is that my thoughts, my thoughts don’t necessarily mean that’s my identity. Right? Like we can get really tangled in, in those thoughts. And when you have those patterns, you’re like, that’s just who I am. Or that’s who I will always be, instead of recognizing, like, our brain just wants to think stuff sometimes, our brain just wants to, you know

Uwe Dockhorn
Yeah, that’s, but that’s, I think the crucial piece is, as I mentioned earlier, is the identity piece. And –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Uwe Dockhorn
This is too often overlooked. Because it is, when, when you get to the core of yourself and ask the question, of who are you? Right? And not many people have a 100% certain answer to that. So I know 100%, who I am. So, and I help my clients to get to that point, it takes time, of course, and but the importance of the determination of your identity is part of your, of the process of becoming independent. Because there are three phases. As you know, I say phases, but essentially, there are paradigms. So it starts with dependence-land, as I call it. So we get into this world, right, and we got fed, we got cleaned and repeat. (laughter) And but that’s how we evolve and we kind of like walk towards being independent, and – but we cannot land there if we’re not letting go of the code dependencies and the dependencies that we created for ourselves, right. So we are kind of like in charge. And only after we realize we are in charge, we are one step closer to entering the next paradigm, independence-land. So and that is necessary before you can get to interdependence because you can jump from dependence-land into interdependence-land. Nope, doesn’t work like this. And now we’re in the, in the, in the middle of talking about how does this affect your relationship? Because what I do differently, because I’m not a family counselor, I’m not a family therapist, I coach both partners at the same time, but separately, so they can regain the independence within their relationship and start to level up to each other. And we do this, you know, in regular evolution sessions, which we call falling back in love sessions. Lots of goosebumps moments.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I want to hear all about the falling back in love sessions. I am so, I’m so curious about that. Yeah, I’m just curious about that. What like, what what does that look like when you’re working with two couples? Or a couple? Right? Or partners? Yeah, what does that look like the falling back in love session? What’s an example of that?

Uwe Dockhorn
So the journey that they both take at the same time is really kind of like identifying the false beliefs, the elephant thinking, as I said, for themselves, and realizing, getting to the core and letting go of that, letting in something else. And then we have that falling back in love session. So, and for example, there’s also, I just have tragic examples. But sometimes the tragic ones are just more often also happening. So there was a couple and they lost the first child, and they couldn’t talk to each other about that. And they were already on a pathway to for divorce. So it was really looming on the horizon. And so what we did was, I worked with them, as I said, separately, and so each of them were able to face their pain and started to talk about them for themselves, which they couldn’t, because sometimes it’s, it sounds crazy, it’s easier to talk to somebody else that you can trust, of course, and in a safe and neutral container always. And –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and who doesn’t have the same kind of emotional heat that you might have on the situation.

Uwe Dockhorn
Exactly, because in couples typically what happens is that’s also why why, you know, working separately has its advantages, because you’re not always thinking in terms of like we.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Uwe Dockhorn
It’s about me, and you. Him and her, him and him, whatever. So, you know, it’s the two personalities and the both of you have to embrace, allow yourself to determine your independence within your relationship. That’s the personal growth step. That is necessary to get to that realizations and the the kind of like, also the healing process in the case of the loss of a child. And all I had to do, when we, when I brought this couple together in the in the falling back in love session, actually was to facilitate and have some Kleenex, because it was very moving, because they’ve, for the first time started to talk to each other, and really what they felt and how happy they were that they are together. And we created kind of like a little ritual for them. So they could honor their lost child together, you know, going, lighting a candle and going there, it was very, very moving. You know, nobody had a dry, dry eyes at the end of the session. And, but what it also showed that there’s no need for telling someone how to communicate. So when you are at the root cause of things, and you have a better understanding, – oh, gosh, this is why I trigger you. And it’s okay. And this is why I trigger you and you have a better understanding. Communication is a piece of cake.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Uwe Dockhorn
Because you have dealt with it on your own and now you’re just ready to share with each other and create also, which is super, super important, that often get get missed, create a shared vision for the two of you. But also what it means to be kind of like independent partners in an interdependent relationship, which is essentially the ideal solution to that.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s I, there’s, there’s a lot that’s resonating for me of that idea of finding your independence. And then – and then, you know, discovering, co-creating, right, what’s our interdependence like? And I think that, you know, for many people we weren’t raised into how do you have a relationship? You know, not just how do we have a relationship interdependently? But how do we have a relationship with ourselves independently? What does that look like? And when I think about, you know, when I think about my evolution, Nick, and my evolution, right, that was part of a transformation for us was to both start to get clear about our own needs, our own challenges, right, some of the limiting beliefs that we were bringing into the table, and not even maybe realizing, right, how those were showing up. And and then what does it look like for us to move forward? Because, you know, I speaking from experience I was raised in as a woman, you just defer, you just, you just constantly defer, right? And, you know, for him from a, I’m speaking from an American culture, right, perspective, right. The man has to be the achiever, and they have to be the one who takes care and, and those those beliefs don’t necessarily serve us. That’s not who we are. (laughs) You know, he’s, he’s very nurturing. And I’m more of the, you know, ambitious, driven one. And, and that was a real process for us. I’m, you know, I’m also really curious about, I imagine that it is not often you see couples taking the time to get really clear about a shared vision. And I’m curious to hear more about what does that look like? A shared vision for our life, a shared vision for how we interact together, a shared vision for our values for our future. So explain, explain that a little bit. And, you know, what are some questions people can be thinking about who might be listening to this in their car and going, Oh, my partner and I, we’ve, we’ve never done that. What would that look like? So, so, so talk us through, you know, what, what, what are we focusing on? And what might be some questions we ask ourselves?

Uwe Dockhorn
Well, all of the above. As you just mentioned. (laughter)

Sarah Noll Wilson
I figured, but I wasn’t sure. (laughter)

Uwe Dockhorn
Absolutely, absolutely. Well, you know, with my work we we go first for themselves, we create what I call is as a personalized affirmation, which essentially is at the end of each sessions we create for for everyone something, the final question I asked them is, what is the number one advice to yourself that helps you to support in what just happened during our coaching session? So essentially, this is a very good question to ask yourself, What’s the number one advice I can give myself because you know yourself the best. So that is what you can start with and, and really nurture that and be brutally honest with yourself and because you know yourself and I will say, you know, to make it easier, just imagine you would talk to you as your best friend, and just kind of like the arm around yourself and say like, well – and now from the receiving end, it would go like this, well, you start with your first name. So Uwe, focus on listening. Make it short, make it count, not more than seven words, you don’t have to write a novel. So really kind of like, Hey, make this work. Start it, give yourself the best advice in that situation. So that’s kind of like you training yourself to self reflect, and self care. So that helps you on the on on that level, of course, in the, in these falling back in love sessions, you know, we start creating kind of like that, what can you now do together that helps you to support your partnership, your relationship. So whatever came up, so it depends always on that, but that is kind of like the entry point. It’s always very, sound super generic. But you know your topics, so what can you do? And entering in your own independence, I just want to add that briefly because it’s very important for us the process, because it’s the determination in independence-land. Different set of rules, then independence-land. So it’s a paradigm, you know, sign of a paradigm is has its own set of rules. So therefore, when you are in independence-land, you are in charge, nobody else is. So the only catch here is because you determine everything, you have to honor it. And that’s different. So when you just start asking these questions to yourself and start honoring you being independent, that helps you’re already getting on that path. And then of course, when you know, you create because an implementation we have seven success areas of your life and and everybody is implementing for themselves to find the individuality, their values, what they what they love about. So this is implementation, and then we have also manifestation because there you will face first setbacks. And that is on purpose. Because think about how long you have, it has taken to create all these false beliefs and patterns. So it’s just normal.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s taken me 42 years, –

Uwe Dockhorn
Exactly.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s not going away because we had a conversation.

Uwe Dockhorn
Exactly. So it’s very good to – but I put this into kind of like on purposes like really master your setback. So and it happens because we work together, you know, three months, six months, nine months, 12 months, it depends on the intensity. And then we’ll come, there are, the recurring patterns are happening, it’s a thing. So and that is the moment where we can catch the situation, right, so here we go. Now let’s go deep. And that’s kind of like the moment when you’re ready to really determine your identity, your new identity, because everything else is like start peeling the onion away from the core. The core is your identity. So when they have all experienced that and I dive into my, I do these monthly live demonstrations that dive a little deeper into our how does our works. So when when they go all through this, this process, then at the end of the coaching, you’re already kind of like in our final falling back in love sessions, we create your family mantra where you kind of like – where everything is culminating that you experienced. The setbacks, your new identities in the relationship. Also in the work, at work, because we haven’t talked about the connection to that one yet. But, but important to create that family mantra for your family, for your relationship, and, and live it and honor it. So that’s that’s the part and I just mentioned the word connection, if I may, is that okay? Do you have enough –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, you can. I mean, I got lots of I always have questions and thoughts, but –

Uwe Dockhorn
Good. So we can talk endlessly?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, we just, we’ll circle around, we’ll just loop around.

Uwe Dockhorn
That’s so good. Love it. So because I, you know, and I call this process recycling motivation. And essentially, what it means is, first, you start with yourself and the missing link here in the equation also in leadership is the letting go letting in part. So you start with yourself with the self care, so that you can gain the motivation at home with your family. And therefore you’re able to spend your motivation at work and repeat. So that’s how we recycle motivation.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Uwe Dockhorn
Because I strongly believe that in order to become a great leader, you first must become a better partner at home. And there’s the connection to the executives, the medical professionals, business owners I work with, and they’re VIPs. And in, in organizations, they’re slowly opening up to that thought that, well, mental health is a topic. So I consider myself an advocate in mental health. But because of my work, I go deeper, and help, you know, leaders become more effective, because the missing link in the equation here in skillful leadership also means if you’re not practicing the letting in part, and just using the somehow letting go part, you’re missing 50% of the equation.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.

Uwe Dockhorn
So all your skills that you trained yourself are kind of like missing an important piece. So you can be quicker (snaps) in your decision making, because you are based on 100% certainty about who you are and where you want to go. Because you have determined that for yourself, clearly, and if you have these patterns, these recurring patterns, and they’re kind of like, lingering in and of course, we all have these transitional phases in our lives. So we have to move from one place to another or, you know, whatnot, comes by, people die around us. And we have to cope with the effects of that. So there’s, there’s a lot of stuff going on, the only constant in life is change, as we know, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.

Uwe Dockhorn
So we gotta be prepared for that.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. The thing, you know, a couple of things that are coming up for me, you know, when I, I really, you know, that idea of to be the best leader, right, like, you have to be a good partner. And, you know, because so much of leadership is relationships, and building trust and communication. And I could imagine that there could be some challenges, I’ve seen it, maybe I’ve witnessed it, I’ve observed it in some of our clients as well. But that when you are the person, let’s talk the people who are at the top, right, the people who are the CEOs, the executive directors, the business owners. One, when you have power, kind of over, that can be a transition, a challenging transition, to then step into a space where it’s interdependence, right? Now, I think we would probably both argue that great leaders understand their interdependence at work as well, like, it isn’t just about the independence and – but so I could see that being a challenging transition of going from being the person in power, having an incredible amount of independence in the sense of like, whatever you say goes, and now you’re in this partnership, where there, it isn’t just you. It is this give and take, this is something the two of you are creating together. And, and the thing that I feel like I witness a lot, is that a lot of people have tolerated or not even been aware of that they’ve never seen what a really effective relationship can look like. They haven’t seen what it looks like to meet each other and to listen to each other. And you know, and you made this point a while back of you don’t necessarily need to give communication skills, when we are able to just show up, be ready, right, and listen, we can we can get to the core. So I’m just curious, you know, there’s a couple of thoughts that I leapfrogged through. But I’m curious to hear, you know, what comes up for you? And what are some of those challenges you see, when you’re working with people in those executive positions of power, and how that might be challenging for them, when they start to work on their interdependence, at home,

Uwe Dockhorn
We have to go back to kind of like where people most most of the time are. So picture this, you may feel trapped in a maze of paperwork and deadlines, unable to attend important family events, you know, such as your daughter’s soccer game, due to your obligations at work. And you finally reach the field but the constant notifications from work and your phone distract you from your task and the fallout? Well, growing distance between you and your loved one. So, these are just one of the indicators kind of like when you see like, oh gosh, here we go. And you want that, you do all that for them, but the implications are bigger because what we had earlier on is that when we talk about these recurring patterns and so on, and we are essentially we are not aware most of that time of our patterns.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Uwe Dockhorn
So and that to identify them, you would need a mirror. So and consider me a professionally trained mirror.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughter)

Uwe Dockhorn
Here we go.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That needs to go to your business card. (laughs)

Uwe Dockhorn
And (laughs) – exactly. And I’m just there in asking the right question in the right moment at the right time. So, and that helps you to realize, oh, gosh, this is going on. This is why executive coaching is so effective, because, but you know, now that I’m coaching both partners, it started with the executives, and I always get asked by the spouses, hey, I love what you did with my spouse, can you coach me too? And I’m like, yay, cool, another client. But of course. But that’s when I realized there’s this imbalance in the relationship. So there’s the breadwinner up here, and then, you know, you feel abandoned, you know, kind of like, oh, gosh, what’s what’s, you know? Because typically what happens, –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Or what’s my value? Right? Like, what’s my value? Or how, yeah.

Uwe Dockhorn
Yeah, so, you know, VIPs not only want to provide emotionally to the family, they want to provide financially, it’s about recognition, about contribution acknowledgement. And so even if they never can compete with the quantity, the amount of money that typically the executives, you know, gain in their job, but it’s all about having the acknowledgement, the contribution to the wealth of the family. So and having their own project or whatever it is starting, most of them start their own business.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.

Uwe Dockhorn
Because they asked them – the natural progression, and if you have kids, typically when, when women have kids with two to three years old, they ask themselves, okay, what’s the next step for me here? So because they see, well, kids are growing, it’s okay, but where am I in this equation? Here again, that’s the identity piece.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Uwe Dockhorn
But coming back to the, to the, to the, to the C suite, so and when you are dedicated to your family, and you want also to have a career trajectory that is moving upward again. Then at one point, you ask yourself, well, I see I’m stuck. I’m running in circles, I’m running around my patterns, I’m just here stuck. So that’s essentially the moment where you need a mirror, professionally trained mirror to see kind of like, Hey, what’s going on here, and really get to the bottom of things. And so that you have a clear vision and clarity about, hey, what are my next steps within the company, the organization? I’m, I’m a leader, have I been overlooked for some time to get to the next position, I was promised, and whatnot? And also, I want to value kind of like having an enjoying, as I say, harmony at home, right? So, and fun and adventure and intimacy and all that good stuff, right? So to combine the two, it’s really you have to start to become a better partner at home. So you can become a better leader to make a decision and see the connection there. And typically, what happens in this organization, sometimes they – very long ago, but still, sometimes you can sense that . . . they say, well, we just separate kind of like the work life, the family lives and hence yes, we are really, we really want to provide work life balance, which I call BS, because it doesn’t exist.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yep.

Uwe Dockhorn
So there’s only work life harmony. And, and that is kind of like when they realize, oh, gosh, yes, here, here we go. So there, there’s the need for for change. And there’s, the better you become in cracking your code of transformation, the more effective and successful you’re going to be.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah, with I mean, within the realms of what you have to control, right? Obviously, there’s always extra, –

Uwe Dockhorn
We’re not living in a vacuum. (laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right, right, right. And some paths may be easier for some people than others depending right, like on their situation.

Uwe Dockhorn
This is the pattern, the pattern piece that we had earlier because we are not aware of this and so this is what why we are circling around and around and around what’s going on. And so because we are not aware that we are creating it, we are the creators of our own patterns and our own belief system. Nobody else has done this for us. We –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Uwe Dockhorn
I. And and that realization alone is like and, you know, sometimes it can be really tough for people to even ask for help. And that can be a big challenge. It’s like, so because on the career ladder, you know, – and there’s, there’s a difference between how men approach power, and women approach power. And so for – and thankfully, we’re getting more into having more women leaders in our society, because women really have – I just heard this recently that there was a research about that women approach it more like, what can I do with my power? What impact can I have with my power? Instead of like, the single juxtaposition, hierarchical, you know, this is power I have. So we see this all the time, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
I have power over people.

Uwe Dockhorn
I have power over people. Right. And what can I do with that amount of power, responsibly and impacting? And so you’re not – so women are not so, so fast corrupted by power.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Uwe Dockhorn
And that’s also what, what the study showed, so it’s really interesting. So, and we are in changing times. And so it’s 2023. You know, it’s not like 1823.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s there. I mean, yeah, there are still times where I’m like . . . we’re still talking about this in 2023? You know, it’s like, but I mean, it’s always slow moving. But, but, but, yeah, I mean, that’s the – and just to echo like, I’m ready to see more women in power too. (laughs) So just to, just to see it different, to approach it differently. And, and to see what’s possible. And I think that the, you know, as as we’re coming down to our time, you know, what I’m curious about is, you know, for for people who are listening, what, what would be the, you know – what would be a professionally trained mirror question for them to reflect on? Whether it’s through the lens of thinking about their independent journey, or their interdependent journey, what would be one, you know, one sort of lasting reflection question you might offer people?

Uwe Dockhorn
I would say – start them. Because typically, what happens is that we are in a fearful, even if we wouldn’t kind of like commit to that. But sometimes, it’s just also the guilt behind that, that is there. So ask yourself, “Who owns this problem here in front of me? Who’s the owner of the problem?”And – I’m writing it down. (laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
I’ve got a funny story to like, but keep talking. Because I think that’s a really powerful question. And I’m smiling, because I’m, you’ll understand in a minute, while I’m smiling. Continue talking.

Uwe Dockhorn
I can’t wait, I make it quick. (laughter) Well, exactly. But that is a question to ask yourself kind of like sometimes, who does – who’s the owner of this problem here? Who does this problem belong to? Is this my problem? Or is this someone else’s problem? Because that is just the the thought process? When, when you are an independent person. Is it me? Or is that someone else? So because when you are still trapped in independence-land, most of the time you blame it on somebody else? Because you make yourself dependent on what, whatever the situation might be. And to ask yourself, this is a very powerful question to ask yourself.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I love that. And then, you know, the, the expansion that was coming up for me is like, and what part of this problem do I own? You know, because I think like you said, it, it’s so easy to blame. It’s so easy to point fingers, and it’s so much harder to say, but what role that I play? So I love that question of who owns the problem. So here’s why I was smiling and smirking a little bit. We were working with a team who was working on a relationship, like a challenging relationship dynamic between two parties. And as we were doing our exploration, the the phrase one of the teams came up with is, Who’s going to change the sheets? And I was really confused. And I said, like, What do you mean, who’s going to change the sheets? And they said, because we both shit the bed, like, and basically like we both contributed to this problem.

Right.

So, so like, how are we going to change the sheets was the like analogy. So that’s, it’s just, it’s such a like, unique description, but basically, they were able to get to the point have we both contributed to this, and what role are we each going to play in improving it? Right? That’s a less tactful way of asking the beautiful question you said is you know who owns this problem, and if it’s a relationship, probably both of us own some piece of it. Right and how to navigate it.

Uwe Dockhorn
I can give you the follow up question too. If you have an entry question, always ask yourself, How does this make me feel? Because then you are, you’re connecting your emotions to the problem in front of you, or the situation, doesn’t have to be a problem and the situation, how does this make me feel? So because change, you know, I always tell my clients, you can’t think yourself through change. It doesn’t work. Nope, you have to feel. Feel, perceive. It’s kind of like getting – I always make the comparison sometimes. So it’s like, you know, there’s a bottle, and there’s a bottleneck. So you can’t put your head through that, and you can’t think your head through that hole, you can’t do it. But if you’re falling back to your emotions, you become liquid, and fluid. And that’s how you get through things. You let go and let in. So you have to change, you have to change literally, kind of your status and asking the question, how does it make you feel? And then just as a further follow up, I would say is, so what, what does this mean?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yah, yah, yeah. No, I love it. Uwe, as we wind down our time, I, you know, I’d like to hear from you related to the question that we ask all of our guests at the end of our time together. What was the conversation with yourself or with someone else that was transformative, and you may be already hit on it, but I’ll let you speak to that.

Uwe Dockhorn
Well, thank you for that. So essentially, it was really the conversation I had with myself for the very first time after I experienced that episode, at the edge of that bridge. Where I realized and I made several promises to myself, one of them was, hey, I want to, you know, help people to understand this. But this came a little bit later. But in that moment really was because I was exhausted. I was numb before, I couldn’t feel anything. I really made my promise – having goosebumps now when I talk about is – that I want to live a life where I can feel all the emotions that there are, no matter what. And I’m still holding my promise to that. So I’m still allowing all the promises, being emotional, crying like a baby, whatever it takes. And just feeling that. And that is, I think, my most the most important conversation, and realization. Because sometimes we can have these realizations because of a conversation. I think that’s also why you’re asking this because it’s so important to have conversations with yourself. And it starts with you. So lean in, ask yourself, hey, what’s going on here? How does it feel? So what? What’s going on here?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. How curious. That’s always me. I’m always like, that’s interesting, how curious, you know. What a beautiful, what a beautiful promise to yourself. And in a, in the world that I live in, there’s so much chasing of happiness, and so much pushing away of sadness or pain, or, I mean, we could have a whole different conversation about men and emotions and what emotions are appropriate. So I just, I that’s such a beautiful, that’s just such a beautiful commitment to yourself. And I. Yeah, I just love that so much. Uwe. Thank you so much for joining our show. If people wanted to connect with you, wanted to learn more about the work, maybe wanted to learn more about how you could work with them and their very important partner, what’s the best way for people to connect with you?

Uwe Dockhorn
It’s easy, thank you for the opportunity. Go to www.uwedockhorn.com, and you’ll find a ton of resources there. We have an assessment about what, what’s the number one, hidden number one stress relief blocker. Case study there and a lot of stuff, a lot of fun. We also do this live demonstrations, as I mentioned earlier. We’re really focused on kind of like how you can get your career trajectory moving upward again, and at the same time, open the floodgates of fun and intimacy at home. Let’s create work life harmony, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Let’s do it. I mean, let’s – the world needs all of it. I want – the world needs. I think the world would be a better place if we had more fun and intimacy. And I don’t mean just like a fun place but that intimacy of vulnerability and connection and being able to go deep. So, as always, we will put all of that information in the show notes. Thank you so much again for saying yes and joining us across the pond. We appreciate you.

Uwe Dockhorn
Thank you so much. Thank you very much.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been Uwe Dockhorn, and one of the things that I’m holding on to is, is that question of reflection of what advice would you give yourself right now, and I really appreciate it the imagery of talk to yourself as if it’s your best friend. Hey, Sarah. Here’s what here’s what we know. Here’s what we need. I think that’s a really beautiful practice and something I’m holding on to and we want to hear from you. What resonated for you what came up for you? What questions do you have, you can always reach out to us at podcast@SarahNollWilson.com. Or send me a DM on any social media because my DMs are always open. If you’d like to support the show, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe on your preferred podcast platform. It helps us increase our visibility and get exposure so we continue to have really great conversations like we did today. Another way you can support the show is by becoming a patron. You can go to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where your financial contribution supports the team that makes this podcast possible. Plus you get some pretty great swag.

Thanks to our incredible team who makes this show possible. To our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionist Becky Reinert and our marketing consultant Kaitlyn Summitt-Nelson and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. A big final thank you to Uwe Dockhorn for joining us all the way from Germany. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening and remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So be sure to rest, rehydrate. We’ll see you again next week.