Episode 062: A Conversation on Human Sustainability with Jen Fisher

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Jen Fisher as the explore the concept of Human Sustainability, with a focus on Jen’s holistic strategy to help improve well-being across individuals, organizations, climate and society.

Resources Mentioned

• Deloitte Report: https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/insights/topics/talent/workplace-well-being-research.htm
• WorkWell podcast series: https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/pages/about-deloitte/articles/workwell-podcast-series.html

About Our Guest

Jen Fisher is a leading voice on the intersection of work, well-being, and purpose. Her mission is to help leaders move from the legacy mindset that well-being is solely the responsibility of the individual to the forward-thinking idea of human sustainability, which supports the long-term, collective well-being of individuals, organizations, climate, and society. She’s the co-author of the bestselling, award-winning book, Work Better Together: How to Cultivate Strong Relationships to Maximize Well-Being and Boost Bottom Lines, the Human Sustainability Editor-at-Large for Thrive Global, and the host of the WorkWell podcast series. As the first chief well-being officer of a professional services organization, Jen built and led the creation and execution of a pioneering holistic and inclusive well-being strategy that has received recognition from leading business media brands and associations. Jen is a frequent writer on issues impacting the workplace today, including the importance of mental health and social connection to workforce resilience, happiness, and productivity. Her work has been featured in CNBC, CNN, Fast Company, Fortune, Inc, Stanford Social Innovation Review, and Harvard Business Review, among others. She’s a sought-after speaker and has been featured at events including, TEDx, World Happiness Summit, Out & Equal Workplace Summit, Acumen Global Gathering, WorkHuman, The Atlantic Pursuit of Happiness event, and more. She’s also lectured at top universities across the country, including Harvard, Wake Forest, Duke, and George Mason. Jen is passionate about sharing her breast cancer and burnout recovery journeys to help others. She’s also a healthy lifestyle enthusiast, self-care champion, exercise fanatic, sleep advocate, and book nerd! Jen lives in Miami with her husband, Albert, and dog, Fiona. You can find her on LinkedIn or on Twitter and Instagram @JenFish23. You can also receive her personal insights and reflections by subscribing to her newsletter, “Thoughts on Being Well” @jenfisher.substack.com

Website | LinkedIn | Instagram (@JenFish23) | Newsletter

Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations, where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and each other. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me today is a newer friend, colleague and somebody I’m so excited for you to meet Jen Fisher. We’re going to be talking about the concept of Human Sustainability at work and well-being. But before we get into this, Jen has an impressive – an impressive resume. So give me a moment because I want I want to, I want to shower you with all of your accolades, and I want people to just be really impressed by, you know, your journey to this point. Okay, so Jen Fisher is a leading voice on the intersection of work, well-being and purpose. Her mission is to help leaders move from legacy – the legacy mindset that well being is solely the responsibility of the individual, to the forward thinking idea of human sustainability, which supports the long term collective well being of individuals, organizations, climate and society. She’s the co-author of The Best Selling award winning book Work Better Together: How to Cultivate Strong Relationships to Maximize Well-Being and Boost Bottom Lines, the Human Society Sustainability Editor-at-Large for Thrive Global and the host of her own podcast, WorkWell series. She is also the first Chief Well-being Officer at Deloitte. She has built and led the creation and execution of a pioneering holistic and inclusive well-being strategy that has received recognition from leading businesses, media brands and associations. She frequently writes and shares information about the different issues that are impacting the workplace, including – and this is why I’m so excited for us to dig into this – the importance of mental health, social connection, to workforce resilience, happiness and productivity. And you can find her work on CNBC, CNN, Fast Company, Fortune Inc, Stanford – I mean, the list goes on – Stanford Social Innovation Review, Harvard Business Review, among others. She recently just did a TEDx talk, and can be seen on lots of different stages. She is an incredible lecturer. She is passionate. She’s lovely. She has an incredible laugh. Welcome to the show, Jen.

 

Jen Fisher  

Thank you so much. And can I just take you with me to introduce me everywhere?

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I’ll be I’ll be your hype woman.

 

Jen Fisher  

There you go, I love it.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I will happily be your hype woman. I did wear my “Be present” t-shirt just for, you know, you and anchoring us in this time together. I thought you might appreciate it. Jen, what else should we know about you?

 

Jen Fisher  

Goodness, what else should you know about me? Well behind, you know, behind all those accolades is a real person. But also, I didn’t get there, I didn’t get anywhere, or do any of those things alone. And so while I’m incredibly proud of all that I have achieved, it has – it has come with a village of people that have got – helped me to get where I am. And so there’s lots of people behind the scenes that should be acknowledged and celebrated. What else should you know about me? I live in Miami. And it is very, very, very hot right now. So we don’t go outside. But I live with my husband. And we have a very rambunctious three year old Jack Russell Terrier, who keeps us active and laughing. And yeah, I’m pretty much a book nerd, as you can see behind me, lots of books. And so I’m always reading, spending time with family and loved ones. I’m a breast cancer survivor. And, yeah, I’m sure we’ll get into some of the other stuff. So that’s enough about me. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I love it. I also really appreciate that you, right out of the gate were like, I mean, it just says a lot about what you value of – This isn’t just me, you know, like, I’ve gotten to do some really cool stuff. But I have this incredible support system. So talk to us about your journey, and your passion with well-being. And I know part of it is your experience with breast cancer, navigating burnout, but talk to us – just, like, lead us – What was the life, Jen, that led you to this point of being so, so passionate and and becoming such an important voice for us to rethink what work can be?

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah, I’ll try to give you the, you know, the Cliff Notes version, because if we dug into every aspect of that, we’d be talking for quite a long time. But I – what I will say is that the journey to becoming Deloitte’s first Chief Well-being Officer really was because of my own personal experiences kind of intersecting with work, and changes that we were seeing at work and in the workplace, not unlike we’re seeing now. In many ways it was kind of a pivotal moment. But for me, it was about eight and a half years ago. And what did my life look like leading up to eight and a half years ago when I experienced burnout? Well, you know, I, I prided myself on being healthy and well, I was an athlete growing up, I got to the gym an hour a day, I worked or did whatever else I was doing for about 18 or 19 hours a day, and you can do the math, that meant I was sleeping about three or four hours a day. And people used to joke around that, you know, Jen sleeps with her cell phone or her, you know, her electronic device, and I would laugh and go along with it. But it was true. And so it wasn’t a joke, because I thought whatever was gonna come through at three o’clock in the morning was the most important thing that was going to happen that day. And so, you know, that isn’t sustainable. I don’t care how old you are, you can tell yourself that that’s a sustainable way of living. And it’s not. And ultimately, it did lead to burnout. But, you know, people kind of always asked me, Well, did you know? Did you know that something was wrong? What were the signs? What were the signals? Yes, I knew something was wrong. I ignored it, because I processed it as failure. Because I looked around and, you know – in the high performing world and organizations that we live in – and especially now with social media, where literally everybody is high performing and doing amazing, amazing things – I said, Okay, well, I’m not gonna say anything, I can’t ask for help. If I do, then, you know, they’re gonna think I don’t belong here. And so I just kept pushing through, I just kept telling myself, you know, I’ll, I’ll rest when this project is over, I’ll take a vacation, I’ll be happy when I accomplish this or that. And, you know, our bodies are pretty smart. And so one day, literally, I woke up, but that was kind of about it, I woke up and I just could not continue to engage in work or in life in any meaningful way. And I didn’t really have a choice at that point. And by the way, friends and loved ones pointed it out, in particular my spouse, but nobody listens to their spouse when they tell them things like that. I mean, they just didn’t understand how important the work I was doing was, you know? It was that kind of – that, that was the story I was telling myself. And so I was forced to take a leave of absence. I was diagnosed with –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Wait, you say you were – you were – Keep talking. Sorry.

 

Jen Fisher  

I was forced, because I just couldn’t engage like I could. Yeah, I couldn’t. Yeah, I mean, I like my body and mind kind of just shut down and said, if you’re not going to do something about this, we’re going to force you to do something about it, which is kind of why I said, Your body’s pretty – Your body’s pretty smart. And so I was diagnosed with anxiety and depression, I still live with that anxiety today. And so I was forced to really take stock of my life, as cliche as that may sound, but I think more specifically, decide and determine the role that work was going to play in my life, and how much of myself I was going to give to work versus the other things in my life that also mattered, and, how much was I going to give to me? And that was a bit of a new concept. And so I did that. I had to go on that journey for myself, through therapy, those types of things. And I came back to work. And I sat down with my leader at the time, who still continues to be a great mentor and friend. And I actually told her that I thought I needed to resign from the organization because I really wanted to focus on helping others not go through what I went through. That, you know, as Ariana Huffington says, you know, burnout is not the price that we pay for success. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. 

 

Jen Fisher  

And there wasn’t a role like that in – at Deloitte or in our organization. And so credit goes to her, because she was the one that had the vision that said, you know, You’re not going anywhere. And I was like, Okay, well, what am I going to do? You know, because I had gotten all ramped up to, like, have this conversation, right? And she was like, No, you’re gonna go back to where you came from, put together your business case for what you think well-being at Deloitte should look like, and, you know, kind of before the conversation ended – When you talk about emotionally intelligent and kind of inspiring and motivational leaders, she said to me, you know, If you need this, there’s a lot of other people in the organization that need it, too. And that has just kind of always stuck with me and been part of my mission and my driving force. So that’s kind of what got me to the Chief Well-being Officer role, which was about eight years ago, and I know we’re going to – we are going to move into the topic of human sustainability a bit later in the conversation, or maybe right now, but I will save it for when we get to that. But that’s kind of Jen’s journey in a, you know, a little snapshot.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I – Thank you for that. A couple of things that were coming up for me. We, as you mentioned, we, especially in America, you know – Let’s name that, because we have an international audience – We have a very high hustle, individual, right, like, value in our system. And was it hard for you to shed the Super-Jen identity? When you were making that transition? You know, and part of the reason I’m asking is, I remember having a similar, somewhat similar journey, right? And realizing that I felt really good when people would say, I don’t know how you do it. Right? Like, it made me –

 

Jen Fisher  

That badge of busy, yes.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

That badge of busy. Exactly. That’s what – exactly, I said, did you ever feel it was a badge of honor to be perceived to be so successful and busy?

 

Jen Fisher  

Yes, one hundred percent. You know, it was that, you know, and I say now, like, when you ask somebody, you know, how they’re doing, somebody tells you, Oh my gosh, I’m crazy busy. You know, if somebody says that to me, now, I’m like, Really? Can you explain to me what that means? Like, explain to me, like – I kind of, you know, call them on it to say, like, Are you – Are you really okay saying that that’s how you’re doing? Or, if that’s actually how you’re doing, are you okay with that? 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Jen Fisher  

So – But to answer your question, yeah, it was hard. And, and I think it’s still hard in many ways, right? I mean, I think that old habits die hard. I think that we still live in this world that does celebrate hustle culture. And it’s hard to – It’s hard not to get sucked into that, right? And so I think what it takes is a lot of self awareness, and kind of knowing, knowing what the signs are, you know, knowing what – probably more importantly, knowing what the behaviors are. Because for me, when I start to slide down that path, the behaviors are very obvious. I become very impatient. I’m very reactive, I become very kind of emotional. And so for me, it’s – those are signs of, like, Okay, wait, what’s going on here? You know, but also surrounding yourself with people that will point it out. That’ll say, like, Hey, Jen, like, what’s going on? Or, conversely, surrounding yourself with those same people that you can go to and say, You know what, I need help. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah.

 

Jen Fisher  

You know, this isn’t – it’s not, it’s not working right now. I, you know, I get that I lead well-being for a giant organization, but I need some help. You know, and I think this idea of, you know, asking for help, I used to view it as a weakness. And now I view it as a strength. I mean, being able to ask for help, or ask questions, or say you don’t understand, or say you can’t do something takes a whole lot of confidence and strength to do that, even with the people that you’re closest to, so –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. And, you know, and and, what do I want to say, like – And hopefully the people that they’re asking receive it, right? Because it is, it is such a – It can be such a step of courage for so many people to say, Hey, this is actually too much. And especially because we’re going to be spending a lot of time talking about it through the context of work. But how do we – how do we hold space for that? And how do we, you know, maybe shift our expectations of human capacity? I think that that’s something that we see so much is, at some point, people can only do so much. At some point, I mean, and exactly your point, like, you can do the math. I was sleeping for three to four hours.

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

There was – there, there is a cost there, that – that will catch up to you. What was most challenging for you, as you reframed and reprioritized what was going to be in your life? Because one of the things that I think has happened to a lot of people – whether they’ve taken action on it, or have just mentally sort of had this experience because of the pandemic – is getting really clear about where they want to spend their time, how they want to be treated, you know, reevaluating. And, in some cases, wanting to de-center work from, you know, being the most important. So what was – as you’ve been on this journey, because I assume it’s still, right, a journey, and sometimes when you get passionate about something, you can give it even more time than maybe you need to, but – What’s been most challenging for you as you’ve worked to reprioritize your your focus, your time?

 

Jen Fisher  

You know, I think that it’s boundaries, right? And the, the idea or feeling of letting others down when I say no to something. But I also think that when you get very clear about where, where and how you want to spend your time and you start to set boundaries to do that, that – And if you weren’t that person before, right, if that’s not what people were used to, you’re kind of changing the, you’re changing the world order. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

 

Jen Fisher  

You know, and so some people fall away, you know, or some people don’t want to be a part of it, or some people get upset with you, or – You know, and so, you know, I think losing some relationships that I thought were, you know, really important, meaningful relationships, that when things changed or shifted, you know, those relationships changed and shifted in ways that I didn’t expect. I think that that was really hard. But I think just generally, you know, getting over that feeling of letting people down when you’re setting a boundary. Because you should be your number one priority, right? And, and, and that is hard, right? And you are going to let people down. And, and by the way, that’s okay. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Jen Fisher  

You know, and I think also with boundaries, it’s, you know, I think – Look, No is a complete sentence. But No, and here are some other ideas that I can share with you, or here are some other people that may be able to do – You know, so it depends on what the situation is, it doesn’t always have to be a flat-out No. It’s a No, but here are some other ways that I can help you, right? And so there’s ways to kind of, you know, soften that. I also think, I mean, one of the biggest lessons learned for me, which feels kind of silly, is like, somebody had asked me to come to a speaking engagement. And I think, I don’t actually know, but I think I was like, really frustrated at the moment. And it wasn’t at this person, but I happened to kind of get the email and do what we often do, and kind of respond in a very reactive way without, like, you know, just kind of settling down. And I wrote back, and I don’t think I was trying to be a jerk, but I was like, Look, I can come to your event and speak. But that means that I’m going to have been on five airplanes in three days, and – you know, then I kind of like, like, went off a little bit and, like, told them what my schedule was gonna look like. And then I ended with, And then you want me on stage at eight o’clock in the morning? Like, is that really what you want? Because I’m not going to show up at my best. You know, and, like, lesson learned for me. And thank goodness, I sent this to like, a kind and compassionate person, because they wrote back in, like, the kindest way, and they were like, Oh my gosh, I completely understand. Thank you. I mean, they were all like, Thank you for sharing that with me, you know? And, and then – and then it kind of opened up this dialogue of, like – you know, because then of course, I felt like an ass, right? So I was like, Hey, look, I’m, I’m sorry, but how else can I help you? Can I help you find somebody else? Is there something else that I can do? And I think that, like, I would never recommend doing it the way that I did it. But now with other people, I’ll say, Look, I have all these other things going on. I would really love to do this. It’s just not the right time. You know, how can we engage in a different way? How can I help you find – You know, so I think there’s ways of continuing to help people –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah.

 

Jen Fisher  

– but also have boundaries. And by the way, like I said, No is also a complete sentence. If that’s, that’s – if that’s what it requires, right? But I think the big lesson learned for me is that when you tell most people you don’t have the capacity, and you’re genuine and authentic about it, they get it. They understand.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. It’s, uh, it makes me think of – I think it’s Oliver Burkeman, he wrote the book Four Thousand Weeks, and it’s, it’s a, what, time management for mortals or humans. I forget what the subtitle is, but one of the things he talks about in that is, right, I mean, there’s just a capacity.

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

You know, there’s a limited amount of time, but as humans, we have an unlimited amount of imagination and an unlimited amount of possibilities. And one of the things that, that he talked about that was so resonant for me was he said, You will always disappoint someone.

 

Jen Fisher  

Yep. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

You – in your choices, there will always be someone you disappoint. So can you be more, like, choosy kind of like, who are you – who are you okay with, and – and I think some of that, too, is I know, like, as white women, right, we’ve been very much conditioned to be people pleasers to – depending on geographically where we were raised – Midwest – that that that can feel so –

 

Jen Fisher  

They’re very nice. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, you bet. Violently polite is what I say. We’re violently polite. We’re – and so, so it can be hard to set those boundaries, and, exactly like you said, when you do it in a way that is authentic, but also, I want to help you, how else can we – People get it. And I think a lot of times they appreciate it, of just, like – I remember one time, feeling, you know, really overwhelmed, getting a lot of inquiries for coffee, right? Chats, or whatever. And I was like, I want to, I want to – I don’t want to be the person who’s like, Sorry, I don’t have time for you. But the reality is, I was barely seeing my husband. I was barely seeing my family. I was – Who I was disappointing, who I was saying no to, were the very people who are the most important to me. And I remember typing up this email. Because this wasn’t –

 

Jen Fisher  

Email, email is, you know –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Sarah, like five, six years ago. It was just like, Right now I’m prioritizing work and my family and my health. And so at this point I’m not taking on – And I was so nervous, right, because of the disappointing people and, right, what – and every single person was like, I really appreciate that, and I wish you the best, and I’ll connect with you next year. And it was like, Awesome. 

 

Jen Fisher  

And you know why? Because it also gives them permission. I mean, everybody’s kind of looking for that permission. So when you do it, and you make it okay, everybody’s like, Oh, wow, if she can do it, then I can do it too. Right? And so it creates, you know, I mean – and that’s why we all, I mean, that’s why we all have a responsibility not only to ourselves, but to others that we engage with and work with on a, on a regular basis. And you had mentioned something about, you know, kind of the, you know, the the description of how I was living prior to my burnout, that led to burnout. And one of the things that I talk about with leaders quite often is, you know, burnout is bad for the individual. Absolutely. It’s also really bad for an organization. And the, in the time period leading up to burnout, too. Like, you don’t even want to get there, because the risk is so – I mean, put aside the individual health risks for the person, just, and caring about who they are as a human being. But, you know, I live in a world of accountants and consultants, right? And so many of our businesses are highly, highly regulated. I mean, do you want your auditor or your tax preparer doing your audit at 3am? No.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Jen Fisher  

You know, the risk of mistake, and those mistakes can be really big mistakes. And, you know, that’s where accidents come in. And I mean, there are all kinds of things that just go wrong when we aren’t creating this permission and this space for people to say, You know what, it’s okay to say no, and it’s okay to prioritize myself. That doesn’t mean that I’m not loyal or engaged, or that I don’t care. That means that in order for me to be loyal and engaged and do great work, I got to take care of myself.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. So let’s – what a beautiful transition into human sustainability. Yeah, you like that?

 

Jen Fisher  

I do.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

So – So what does that mean? How do you define human sustainability?

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s really an emerging area, if you will. My definition, or my working definition of it is, you know, that – this collective, long-term view of well-being. And its well being of individuals, organizations, the climate and society. And, you know, I think people would say, Well, yeah, that’s – you know, like, of course, that’s everything, and you could boil the ocean. And it’s true, right? And so I think we have to pick, like, where are we going to focus? But I also think what’s happening in society, and in many organizations, is that we’re doing a lot of great work in silos. Right? And so we’re – there are many really talented and smart people that are trying to tackle climate change. And there are very – there are a lot of smart, talented people that are trying to tackle well-being, and well-being at work, and well-being on a societal level, and health equity, and the intersection of AI and humanity. And the list goes on and on. Trust, equity, you know, DEI, I mean, there are many, many, many organizations and people that are doing great work and then are committed to this, but we’re doing them in a way that is siloed. And they’re all connected.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah.

 

Jen Fisher  

Right? And what sits at the center of that, or the foundation of that, is humans, right? And so we have these great aspirations and these goals around equity and climate and trust. But if we don’t consider how we’re going to keep the human well, and keep work and life sustainable for the human, we’re going to have a really hard time not only meeting those goals and aspirations, but enhancing them or getting better at them. And, you know, we’re – so again, I mean, I think it, you know, it could, it could feel like, Okay, well, where do we start? You know, and I think that’s a great question. I think there’s a lot of places that, that we could start. I think that, you know, there is – there’s a lot of opportunity to, you know, to to embed, you know, further into ESG. And if you look at the S in ESG, and social, in particular when it’s related to the workplace, I think the metrics themselves don’t go far enough. They look at health and safety, which is important, and that should actually be there, and then they look at how much organizations are spending on employee health and well being, but we’re not looking at outcomes. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. 

 

Jen Fisher  

And I think that that’s a mistake, or it just needs to go further. Because I think the trends that we’re seeing – and this came out in our recent Deloitte Report is that, you know, the investments are all well intended, and they’re needed, and they’re really good. But what is creating bad well-being outcomes for people are – is not the lack of programs. It’s actually the way that we’re working, and the workload, and our relationship with our leaders, and psychological safety – all of these other things that are impacting people’s well-being and how they feel, at work, and about work. And so the programs are foundational, but we need to go a step further and say, Okay, what are the systemic, like, what are the root causes? Because we’ve been working the same way for – other than technology, we have been working the exact same way for 100 years, and you could argue that technology has made us better. You could have the same exact argument that technology has made us worse. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

It sure hasn’t lightened the load. I don’t have Rosie the robot.

 

Jen Fisher  

Right? That was the promise of technology, that it was going to make us more efficient. And therefore we’re going to have all of this free time. And in some ways, that’s also the promise of AI, right? That we’re going to have all of these hours that are going to be freed up. And so if that’s true, then business leaders really need to be thinking about, Okay, well, what are we going to do with those hours, with those people? You know, and it’s not because everybody’s going to get laid off, and there’s no jobs to do.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Okay, I have to ask, okay, because I get asked this, as somebody who’s very passionate about how do we make work work better for humans. Can – Can it exist in the current capitalist society structure we live in? Where, largely, for most organizations, it’s about shareholder profits, right? It’s about how do we extract as much work at the least amount – Right, like, and I – I sit there and I’m hopeful of like, there are some companies who are doing it well. We – the research shows that, actually, when you do take care of the people, you will actually produce more, and yet that doesn’t seem to, like, compute for people. But there is part of me that’s like, I don’t know, can we accomplish this? Can we really, truly change work in the larger container that work exists in? And I don’t know if you’re allowed to answer that, depend – you know, like, based off of the work you do and the employer you’re with – (laughter)

 

Jen Fisher  

I mean, I guess what I would say, and yes, I’m allowed to answer it. But I would say, what’s the alternative? Right? I mean, you know, and I think that’s where human sustainability comes in. And I think also, what I’m seeing and, and hearing a lot from business leaders, who are really well intended and trying to do the right thing, again, is that they’re investing a lot of money and they – and they truly do care. But, but we’re not changing work, right? We’re investing money in programs. And then they’re kind of throwing their hands up and saying, Well, you told me to do all these things, and I’m doing it, and it’s not working. And everything about work still sucks. So like, what do you want me to do? 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Jen Fisher  

Right? And so, and so I think that is, like – I think part of what is exciting to me about human sustainability is that it’s, it’s long term. And it’s collective, right? And so – We didn’t get here overnight. Like, work didn’t – I mean, yes, components of work have sucked forever. But we didn’t get to where we are today with the stats and the data that we have about how the workforce is feeling about work and their own well-being and their mental health. And, and it’s not just work, right? I mean, it’s all of these other factors, that we never actually considered even 10 years ago, that were impacting the way that people showed up at work. Like, we didn’t even – we just didn’t even think about it that way. And we certainly, eight years ago, when I started in my role as Chief Well-being Officer, work wasn’t even a factor in our well-being equation. It was largely us teaching people about the things that you should do outside of work that allow you to show up at work and be better, right? Like, we didn’t say, like, work – Work is impacting people’s well being? Are you kidding? Like, that wasn’t part of it, right? And so we’ve, like, we’ve evolved and grown so much, but that’s taken 10 years, right? And so I think we need to realize that, like, we didn’t get here overnight. We’re not going to fix it overnight. And, and the way that we’re going to fix it is for the C-suite and the workforce to actually come together on this issue. Like we’re pointing fingers, we’re placing blame. The C-suite’s saying, I’ve done everything I can do. What do you want me to do? And the workforce is saying, Well, it’s still not working. So you need to do more. Right? And so we do need to figure it out together. This is not a, you know, the C-suite is going to fix it, or the work – I mean, like the the workforce also has to understand that this is going to take some time, you know, but as long as we have a voice, and we can see and be involved and engaged in some significant and instrumental change, I think that that’s okay. But we have to start working together on it. And I think that that’s the only way that we’re going to solve it. And I think that the organizations that continue to thrive in the future will figure that out, or have figured that out.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, it’s – I mean, that point, that point that you brought up of, you know, throwing money at, like, programs. And, you know, I think about my own career. I was kind of, as you were talking, I had this flashback – a memory popped into my head that I hadn’t thought about. And, you know, and I’m laughing a little bit as I get ready to tell you, because I think you’re gonna really appreciate it. You know, I worked, I worked for an organization that it wasn’t uncommon for us to be working 60, 70 hours a week, it wasn’t uncommon for us to be working every Saturday, doing overtime. And, you know, maybe every once in a while they bring in Shamrock Shakes during March. And – as if somehow, some, some gelatinous dairy, pseudo-dairy product was going to – right? But even, but even to your point of organizations that are, you know, – Let’s do a program on mindfulness, let’s do, let’s, let’s teach the individual, and – realizing, you know, it’s like, you know, I think about when we’re approached from organizations, where they’re like, we want our leaders to better be able to support our team members’ mental health. And, like, that’s great. And that’s important and necessary. And. 

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah, exactly.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

And I just, I just heard you, CEO, say, People aren’t working anyway. They should just be happy to have a job. And that tells me a lot about your culture. And that tells me a lot about the stress. And you’re expecting people, right, to, to work crazy hours, and, like, Well, that’s just who we are. And we’re just growing. And we’re – I’m like, Yeah, I get that. And there’s going to be a cost to that. So let’s – I do want to spend some time digging into some of the key concepts, or some of the key ideas, the data that came out of the report – and we will be sure to link this in the show notes. Because it is really fascinating. And I hear you, when you say, it’s going to take everyone to be in conversation. And – and it does really require the people with power to be open to those conversations, right? Because –

 

Jen Fisher  

Absolutely. And – open to conversations, and open to, like, action and things that we haven’t thought about doing before. Right? Like I mean, some of this is going to require some fundamental shifts in the way that we do business. And we have to be open to that. And that’s going to take some really bold, strong leaders to do that and do it well.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I mean, how many more studies, Jen, do we need on the power of 32 hour work weeks, four day work weeks? I mean, every country that’s tried it, every city that’s tried it – like – not every, I mean, I’m being a little – 

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

– But most didn’t go back. And I’m like, How much longer do we – how much more data do we need to show that, you know, not working that – You know, 40 hours is arbitrary. I’m glad it’s here. I’m glad that we’re not doing, you know, right? Like, I’m glad the unions fought for that. And we have that. But again, time to shift. Okay, so report. So one of the first, one of the first data points that I thought was not surprising, was the fact that most employees say that their health has worsened or stayed the same as last year. And what was also not surprising, but to see it in such a black and white data, was the fact that more than three out of four executives believe that their workforce health has improved. I mean, it’s just like, that’s such a glaring difference of experience. And, and, and I want to I want to dig into, what do you see in your work? Because often – and again, if I’m the person – and I don’t say this from a place of judgment, but this is the reality. If I’m making a million dollars, if I have helped taking – if I can afford, right, my – my financial needs are taken care of as a C-suite person. We see all the time that people are unable to almost see the reality of their team members who was only making $37,000 a year or whatever the case is. And so they view the experience through the lens of what they’re, what they’re experiencing. But I just, I thought that was so fascinating, the complete gap of where people are, really, compared to where the C-suite sees that they are, and I’m curious to hear your thoughts on that, and just, like, what conversations have you all had? I mean, that’s, again, it’s not surprising, but it’s kind of – it’s painful to see on paper.

 

Jen Fisher  

It is painful, and it’s painful to see that, you know, I mean, last year, we thought it was bad. And to see that it’s gotten worse this year. When I think we were hoping, we were a little bit more hopeful until we saw the data. You know, I don’t think it’s one thing. I mean, I think it is what you’ve described. But I would also say that leaders are people too. And I think when you look at the data of leadership and C-suite, especially from last year’s report, I mean, they’re struggling too.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, they are.

 

Jen Fisher  

And, and so I think it’s easy to say, Well, yes, they have more money and more access and more means and that’s also true. But more money, more problems, right? But but but the core of what I think is happening is actually, when you’re struggling, regardless of whether you’re in the C-suite, or you started yesterday, your perspective of what good looks like is out of whack. And so, and I think for C-suite leaders, many of them, to admit to themselves and anyone else that they’re struggling, is really hard.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah.

 

Jen Fisher  

You know, because they’re the C-suite, right. They’re there for a reason, they shouldn’t struggle, they shouldn’t, you know – They have all this access, they have all this money. It’s – I mean, we’ve also read all the studies about how lonely it is to be in some of those roles. And so I think what we’re seeing in the data is that the C-suite is really struggling. And so therefore, they themselves are looking at their workforce and saying, Yeah, well, they’re, they’re doing pretty good.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I appreciate you pushing on it. Because, I mean, we’ve definitely – we actually did a episode on leadership burnout. Like, CEO and executive burnout, because we’re definitely seeing it. I think that, I think that’s a really interesting perspective, because I definitely have observed people, like, Things are good for me. So they must be good for everyone else. 

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Right? So I want to, I want to honor the fact that that – that does happen. And, and you are right. There – I mean, we – I think – I forget what the report was recently, that showed that the percentage of people who are stepping out of – retiring, voluntarily stepping out of executive roles is higher, was higher in second quarter than it’s kind of ever been. I forget what the – I don’t remember the exact numbers, but it was enough to be alarming. But I think that idea that you’re posing I hadn’t thought about, and I think it’s a real gift, actually, because we’re working on a – we’re actually working on a white paper right now about C-suite burnout, like, so like, I am kind of in the trenches with –

 

Jen Fisher  

Use our data. Go for it.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. I totally am. But that, but that point of, when you are struggling – I think that’s really provocative. And I appreciate that. I appreciate you pushing me on that. And it’s got my wheels turning a bit of, like, you – You’re like, I mean, it could be worse. Like, I mean –

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah, you know, I’m not saying like, Oh, woe is me, we should now all feel bad for the C-suite. That’s not what I’m saying, but I’m saying, like, if you’re a human being and you’re struggling, what you’re seeing, you know, might look pretty good to you. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. It’s such a great point. It’s such a – Yes. I appreciate that. Thank you. It’s – I – you know, kind of continuing down, you know, I, I had to smile a little bit at the subtitle in the report that was, work remains a significant obstacle to well-being. Like, I, but to your point, I think that we, we’ve, we’ve known it. 

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Maybe we just haven’t had the courage to name it, didn’t feel like we could name it, didn’t, you know, or whatever the case is, so I appreciate it just being named. Like, this is a significant impact. And yeah, and I mean, just some of the stats. I highlighted these, you know, that their job has a positive impact. It was like a third of employees, a positive impact on their mental health, physical health and social well being. But then it negatively impacts, right, like about the same or slightly more. And, and I think that that is something that – It was interesting to read the idea of the expectation of managers, leaders, having some responsibility of well-being, because I definitely see some people who are in positions of power, who are like, That’s not my job. My job is to make sure you get to do what you need to do. And this is a story I’ve shared. I know I’ve shared this at least one other time, but it sort of summed it up. You know, I had a leader once who said, If people are doing what they need to be doing, why should I care about how they feel? And, you know, and I, and so I’m just curious to you know, hear how, how do you navigate those conversations? Because you do have people who get it. They just don’t know how to execute on it. Right? They have good intentions, but they don’t have the actions or they’re not sure. How do you show up when you’re facing those people who go, I mean, is that really my job, to care for their mental well-being? That’s on them. Like, if they’re stressed, they need to go to a therapist, they need to do whatever. How do you, how do you show up to those conversations?

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah, I mean, the way – the way that, I mean, I talk about well-being as, you know, a leadership skill set. It is something that needs to be embedded and ingrained into our leadership frameworks, and what it takes – You know, it needs to be part of what it takes to become a leader of people.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah.

 

Jen Fisher  

But what I would say to someone directly in that conversation, I mean, I’d probably push back pretty hard and be like, Really? Like, this is, I mean, this is a human being that, like, you know? And if I, if I happen to know that they are, you know, in a relationship or married or have kids or, like, Is that really, like, is that how you would want your spouse’s leader treating them, or your child – you know, I mean, like, like, none of us want to be treated that way. And so, you know, I would also probably suggest that that person go to therapy, and work out their own issues, right? Because there’s –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

There may be some truth to that, and some recommendations that came from that situation. 

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah, because there’s – yeah, there’s obviously something going on there. Right? Because, because to say that, like, It’s not my responsibility to care about somebody’s mental – like, it’s all of our responsibility, right? Like, as, as human beings, and we need to, I mean, you talked about kind of the hustle culture and this individualistic society. That’s not, it’s not going to serve, it’s not serving any of us well, and it is not going to continue to serve us well. So the sooner that we can require well-being as a leadership skill set, for anyone that is given a role that is leading people – And it is a skill set, right? It’s a skill set, not only to lead other people, but to lead yourself. It starts with you, right? And because, you know, one of the things that – and this is part of my, my TED talk is, you know, I kind of push on servant leadership a little bit, right? Because it – It drives me crazy, because servant leadership, tells you, like, that the leader is putting everybody else’s needs basically sacrificing themselves for everybody else. And I don’t want a leader that does that.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah.

 

Jen Fisher  

I want a leader that takes care of themselves first, because that leader is going to show up and create a space and a place where I can learn and engage and innovate and make mistakes and have open conversations, because they’re going to be open and ready for that. And so I think when you see leaders that are so closed off, honestly, I think it means they’re struggling. Like, they they need help. And so when I said they need to go to therapy, like, I didn’t mean that tongue in cheek. I meant, like, there’s something going on there. Yeah. You know, and if that’s their answer, like, why is that their answer? And why are they okay with that? Because none of us should be okay with an answer like that.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

It’s that – I mean, that idea of, you know, really calling it a skill set, I think is important, because so often we promote people into leadership positions with sort of this assumption that people just know, and they understand and they can figure it out, and they don’t. And we aren’t born understanding that. We aren’t, you know, that’s something we have to learn, and depending on how we were raised, or our culture, all of those different factors. And, you know, and I think one of the things that I appreciated in the report was that, I mean, it was like, what was it 94 percent – 96 percent of managers agree that they have some responsibility for their team members well-being. And then, you know, going on to talk about, but that –

 

Jen Fisher  

The barriers.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

But the barriers, yeah. And that’s –

 

Jen Fisher  

It’s not that they don’t care, it’s just that the way that we’re working, right, that the what’s in the way is work. Right? And so I’m not suggesting that we all just quit. Right? But, but, but to your point before, when you were talking about, you know, it wasn’t unusual in your prior organization for you guys to be working, you know, 60-70 hours, on Saturday, you know, and then here comes these programs of like, Hey, we’re rolling out this mindfulness program. Well, the mindfulness program is great, and it would probably actually help every single person if they just had time to do it.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Right.

 

Jen Fisher  

But when you were working 70 hours a week and on Saturday, when, you know, when your employer shows up with a mindfulness program and says, Here, you want better mental health, just take this mindfulness program, you know, the workforce is throwing up their arms and saying, like, like, when? Like, you know?

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Right. One more thing on the plate. Great. Thanks.

 

Jen Fisher  

Exactly, right? And so sometimes you run the risk of it having a negative impact. And I think that’s what we’re running into right now, is you have leaders that are saying, Okay, let me make these investments because I truly do care about this. And then you have a workforce that is so overworked, and the workload is so high, and manager – I mean, nobody has any time to engage. And so you’re getting results like you got in our report that still says that pretty much everything about work sucks, right? 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, yeah.

 

Jen Fisher  

And so the leaders are like, Well, what do you want me to do? Well, and that’s when you have to start digging deeper and saying, Okay, there’s these barriers that are getting in the way. And I – It wasn’t our report, but there was another report that came out earlier this year, a few months ago, that’s – that specifically focused on managers, that said that a manager has as significant of an impact on somebody’s mental health as their partner.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I’m not surprised. I’m not surprised by that at all.

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

It, you know – I always say, leaders can make or break organizations, they can make or break people too.

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah. When people leave, they leave bad leaders, they leave bad managers. They don’t leave, they don’t leave an organization. It’s a – it’s just made up of people.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

And it’s – it’s that, you know, we make – It’s that competing commitment, right, of profits, of productivity with building relationships, and time, and development. And the – I was just actually talking about this with a client this morning of, like, it’s – you’re in – You’re a little stuck, because there’s this competing commitment of productivity, and you want to build strong relationships. Those are in conflict at times, because building relationships takes time. I mean, it takes an investment, it takes intentionality. And, and when I don’t have the time to do it, when I don’t have the skills to do it, and when, as you know – I’ll speak from, like, a manager perspective – And when everything that I’m being evaluated on has nothing to do with relationships, why the hell would I be focusing on those when my bonus, my opportunities – right, and that goes for being a team member, too. It’s like, Oh, you know, my – I get – I’ll be an exceeds expectations, right, team member, if I get 20 contracts completed instead of 15. Well, that’s what I’m going to be focusing on, I’m not going to be focused –  right, like, for some people, I shouldn’t say that, you know, blanket statement for all. But, but that is, that’s the tension point. And it goes back to your point of, man, we, we have the – I know I’m preaching to the choir. So just like –

 

Jen Fisher  

I love it.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I’m so excited. We’ve been gifted this incredible opportunity, because of the pandemic, to truly rethink work. Like, we have been handed this opportunity, we experimented, we had to, we figured some stuff out. We didn’t figure some stuff out. And, and, and again, you know, and we’re facing a mental health crisis, and we’re facing challenges, and we’re facing a workforce that’s changing, and expectations that are changing, and values that have become clear. And, and it just, it makes me sad that more, more organizations – I understand why – but why more organizations aren’t saying, Yeah, let’s do this differently. Like, I want to be at the forefront of the edge of what the future of work looks like. But instead, it’s just a slow slither back to –

 

Jen Fisher  

Well, and I think, I think they, they will when it starts to impact their profits. And I do, I do think that will happen. Because if you look at some of the trends of the younger workforce is, you know, they’re – You know, you can say the great resignation is over, but they’re still just as likely to leave your organization, and most of them are leaving to do their own thing. You know, and so that’s going to catch up at some point, right? And so I know that a lot of leaders are saying, Well, the great resignation is over and the power is shifting. And I’m like, Okay, but be careful with that, right? Because the power might be shifting, but the sentiment around work has completely changed.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I mean, that’s exactly it. And what we see are some of these leaders who are stuck in the middle, right? They’re kind of, they’re kind of sandwiched, that – their senior leaders are maybe more legacy, they may be aligned more with new possibilities, right? Rethinking. But they don’t have the authority yet. And then, so I am going to be really curious to see what the next five years bring. Because, you know, you talked about the younger generation, they just have access to information we didn’t have, right? I mean –

 

Jen Fisher  

And they’re also very willing to tell you what they think. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. Right.

 

Jen Fisher  

Whereas I feel like with my generation, it was like, No, this is just the way that it is, you know, keep your head down and do good work. And they’re like, No, sorry, I’m not gonna do it that way. I will do it this way. But I’m not going to do it that way. And I love that. That’s the energy that we all need.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. You know what’s so funny, I was, I was actually I was at an event and I had a gentleman come up. And, you know, legacy, right? He’d been, you know, he’d been around. And, and again, no judgment, but his experience, his lived experience was, I had to suck it up. I worked for a shitty boss, and you just did what you were told, and you put your head down. And it was so interesting because I pushed him a bit, like, But is that what we want? And, and so we start talking generations, and no sooner than, you know, a young woman came, maybe 25. And, and it was, I’m sitting there as the, like, 40 year old who’s like, still, like, I was raised in legacy world. And I’m trying to, like shed that. And, and he was like, I mean, I feel like people just want to talk about their feelings all the time. And she’s like, No, no, that’s not it. We just want to be heard and we’re not afraid to – And it was so beautiful to watch her just like, Yeah, we’re just not going to tolerate the bullshit that you tolerated. Because I have options. And, and I’ll sacrifice so that I don’t have – like, I will sacrifice financially so I don’t have to sacrifice mentally or physically.

 

Jen Fisher  

They’ll live a different life, yeah.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Exactly. And I think I think you’re right, that that – that shift is probably going to come more rapidly than people are prepared for.

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because I think what I’m seeing now, you see, you know, I mean, we’re seeing it all over the, you know – You can’t kind of open up whatever your favorite online periodical – do we even call them those anymore? (laughter)

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Really dated. (laughter) E-zines?

 

Jen Fisher  

Talk about being – Totally legacy. But you know, I mean, like, every article is like, Okay, the power is shifting back. And I’m like, well, we need to be, like, we need to be careful with those, with those headlines, right? Because, because I don’t, I don’t, I also kind of challenge us to say, like, Okay, the power is shifting back, or this whole, like, going back to the way things were, well, things weren’t great, right?

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Like, who were they great for?

 

Jen Fisher  

Right? And when you talk about resilience, right? Whether it’s personal resilience, or organizational resilience or societal resilience, the point of resilience is, you know, we talk about it as bouncing back. Like, No, you don’t, I don’t want to bounce back, I want to bounce – like, I want to go better, I want to bounce forward. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. I love that.

 

Jen Fisher  

Like, this is an opportunity to take what we’ve learned, and make the world of work better for all of us. And to me, that is the core of what human sustainability is about, is, like, looking at, what are those, what are those systemic barriers that are getting in the way that we’re gonna have to change? And they’re gonna be hard, and they’re probably going to take a long time, but they’re going to, but we’re gonna change them.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

It is clear that we need to have you back on, and we, like, dig into and go, and here’s how we, here’s where we can try. Here’s some experiments – I want to be, I want to be really thoughtful of your time, in the spirit of care and well-being and –

 

Jen Fisher  

We can do a part two.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I think we will.

 

Jen Fisher  

I would say, give me a couple of months, I’m going to really dig into my human sustainability strategy. And then I think we can get, we can, we can dig in and say, You know, here are the two or three or four things that you can start doing right now.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, I would love that. And, you know, I love what you’re doing. It so aligns with what we’re so passionate about. And, and really, for people who might need the numbers, right? I mean, that’s the reality, is there’s a lot of harm that happens in the workplace. But it doesn’t have to. I mean, I, I have been privileged – and I say this – I have been privileged to work on a team – I will say that because my experience was maybe different than people working on other teams, where I was invested in as a human, where I was supported as a human, where my mental health was a priority, where there was deep compassion, but also accountability, right? It does – I mean, you can be, you know, be empathetic and accountable. Or hold people, uh, you know, responsible for the expectations. And it – it was damn near healing for me having that opportunity after working in such a toxic –

 

Jen Fisher  

Absolutely.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Right? And even though the people were great, the system wasn’t.

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

And, and so it is possible. And it’s, it’s profound when you see that, and it’s not always the norm. And I always feel like when we get a glimpse into a company that’s doing it well, or trying to, and they’ve got some movement, it’s so damn refreshing.

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

And, and guess what? The people – it’s, you know, and what’s always interesting to me is when the people feel really cared for, they are the ones – those team members are the ones that are always evangeli- being evangelical –

 

Jen Fisher  

Evangelical. Yeah, yeah.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

 – about the culture, like, Oh, it’s just so great. And it’s like – 

 

Jen Fisher  

And they probably do amazing, innovative work, right? And so we live in this productivity obsessed culture, right, where we know that caring, compassion and support – I mean, that’s what gets people to show up and continue showing up. Right? And so, I think when a leader says to me like, Oh, well, they’re just lazy or they don’t want to work, right? And I’m like, Okay, well, that probably says something about your culture and less about, you know – because nobody wants – I mean, nobody wants to work in a bad culture. I don’t want to work in a bad culture, you don’t want to work in a bad culture. And so, I mean, the first thing we have to look at is, okay, well, what is it about the culture? Right? So I don’t think that we can just assume that people are lazy, because most people aren’t. They really aren’t.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I’m always like, Is it that they don’t want to work? Or they don’t want to work for you?]

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Because it’s – that’s usually the case. Right? Like, or the culture. Jen, there’s, again, there’s, we will just, we’ll have you back. We’ll have you back at the end of the year.

 

Jen Fisher  

I love it. I love it.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

But we do have to ask you one – our one final question, because we ask every – all of our new guests, you know, this is a Conversation on Conversations. What, what was the conversation you personally had with yourself or with someone else that was transformative?

 

Jen Fisher  

Gosh, there’s so many. You know, I think I have to go back to the one that that I talked about earlier in our talk with the, with the leader, you know, when I, when I sat down and was going to resign, and, you know, she basically told me, No, you’re not, you’re going, you’re going back to put a business case together. I mean, that really changed the trajectory of my life, but also just, like, about so many things that I, like, viewed were – like, I thought were impossible, like, changed my view on, like, Okay, wait, I can just put together a business case on a good idea? And, and I think that that’s a message that is really important for people to have. Like, I have found within an organization or within a team, if you go to a leader and dump a whole bunch of problems on them and expect them to have the answers or solutions – remember, leaders are people too, and they might be struggling and overwhelmed and overworked just like you are. But what I often tell people, especially when it comes to well-being, going to the leader, either by yourself or with a couple of colleagues – don’t ambush them, but say, Hey, these are some issues that we think our team is experiencing. And here, here are some solutions that we have that we’d like to try. Maybe somewhere out there, there’s some leader that would say, No, that’s stupid. But more often than not, leaders are going to say, Yeah, let’s try it. You know, if it’s going to make things better for you, and me and all of us, let’s try it. And so that’s something that I think I learned from that experience that’s been transformational for me.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I love it. What’s, what’s her name?

 

Jen Fisher  

Diana O’Brien,

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Okay, I always just want to give, like, love into the universe to the people who do great things. If people are curious to connect with you to learn more about the work you do, what’s the best way for people to do that?

 

Jen Fisher  

Yeah, thanks for asking that. They can connect with me on LinkedIn. Also, I’m on Instagram at jenfish23. As you mentioned, I also have a podcast, which we’re gonna have you be a guest on, but it’s the WorkWell podcast, all one word, that you can find on whatever your favorite pod catcher is.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Awesome. And we’ll be sure to put all of that in the show notes. We’ll also link to the report, because for – we have a lot of people in the audience who are in HR and in leadership positions, you know, formal leadership positions, but it’s just, it’s really great work. And just thank you for being the advocate that you are, and, you know, chipping away at – pulling the thread is what I’m like – 

 

Jen Fisher  

It’s gonna take all of us, it’s gonna take all of us.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. Thank you so much.

 

Jen Fisher  

I appreciate you having me on to talk about it.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. So, so grateful for you.

 

Jen Fisher  

Thank you.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Our guest this week has been Jen Fisher. And this whole language of human sustainability is really powerful. But there was something she said, sort of as a throwaway, that is sticking to my heart, which is the – let’s not bounce back, let’s bounce forward. I think there’s something really, really beautiful about that. And as always, we want to hear from you. What resonates, what came up for you, what connections did you make? You can reach out to us at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. You can find me on social media where my DMs are always open. And if you’d like to support the show, be sure to rate, review, and subscribe on your preferred podcast platform. This gives us exposure and visibility so we can bring on great guests like Jen Fisher and talk about great topics like human sustainability. You also can become a patron. You can go to Patreon dot com slash Conversations on Conversations, where your financial support will support the incredible team that makes this show happen, while getting some pretty great swag. So it’s a win win. All right, so big thanks to our incredible team who makes this podcast possible. To our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant and support Jessica Burdg, and the rest of the SNoWco crew. And you may have noticed that I didn’t share a name that we have been sharing for all of our episodes, Kaitlyn Summitt-Nelson. Kaitlyn Summitt-Nelson has been our marketing consultant for the last few years, and has decided to focus on spending her nights and weekends that she was normally supporting us raising two incredible young men. And I just have to give some special love to Kaitlyn. Kaitlyn was a big driver in making this podcast possible. She was the one who pushed and it was like, Let’s just make it happen. We keep talking about it. And so much of how we think about ourselves, how we communicate, and this work, not just with the podcast, but the company, has moved forward in really substantial ways because of the impact that Kaitlyn has made. So I want to just make sure I take a moment to thank Kaitlyn for all of her creativity, all of her support, all of her – the impact that she’s had, not only on the work we do, but me personally. So just a big, big thank you to Kaitlyn Summitt-Nelson as she enters into the next phase of motherhood, which is driving the kids around everywhere. So she will absolutely be missed. And just a big final thank you to Jen Fisher and all the great work she’s doing. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So until next week, be sure to rest, rehydrate, and we’ll see you soon.