Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Natalie E. Norfus as they discuss shifts in work culture, the power of equity and inclusivity, and the human-centered approach that is essential to leading in the modern workplace.
About Our Guest
Natalie is a creative and proven problem solver with nearly 20 years of experience as a labor and employment attorney and HR/DEI practitioner. Natalie partners with employers on DEI and HR strategies, conducts complex internal investigations, and provides coaching and training to Boards of Directors and other senior leaders. Natalie believes there is no “one-size fits all” approach to HR or DEI initiatives. She uses a metrics-based model to help organizations develop policies, programs and goals that are customized to their needs. Natalie’s career has touched on many areas of HR and DEI including having:
- Served as the Chief Diversity Officer for multi-billion-dollar brands with responsibility for setting the strategic vision for all facets of each brand’s DEI initiatives.
- Worked as outside counsel in large law firms and in-house before starting an HR & Inclusion Consulting Firm
- Worked with employers around the world spanning across various industries including quick services restaurants, non-profit, education manufacturing, financial services, and healthcare.
Resources mentioned
- Website: thenorfusfirm.com
- LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/natalienorfus
- Instagram: www.instagram.com/thenorfusfirm_
- What’s the DEIL?” Podcast: https://thenorfusfirm.com/podcasts/
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me this week is my newest friend and I cannot wait for you all to meet her. Natalie Norfus. So let me tell tell you a little bit about her before we dig into this topic of human connection and human connection at work. So Natalie is a creative and proven problem solver. With nearly 20 years of experience as a labor and employment attorney and HR DEI practitioner. Natalie partners with employers on DEI and HR strategies, conducts complex internal investigations, and provides coaching and training to boards of directors and other senior leaders. She believes that there is no one size fits all approach to HR, this is why I love you so much. I always tell people if somebody says, “This is the way.” Do not believe them.
Natalie E Norfus
Agree.
Sarah Noll Wilson
She uses a metrics based model to help organizations develop policies, programs and goals that are customized to their needs. Natalie’s career has touched on many areas of HR and DEI, including having served as Chief Diversity Officer for multibillion dollar brands with responsibility for setting the strategic vision for all facets of each brand’s DEI initiatives. She’s worked as an outside counsel in large law firms and in house before starting an HR and inclusion consulting firm, and works with employers around the world. Everything from I mean, you just work with everyone. So – and everyone should work with you. Is that the summary? I think everyone should just work with you.
Natalie E Norfus
I thinks that’s a really good way to put it. I’d put it that way too.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Natalie, what, what else would you like us to know about you?
Natalie E Norfus
I love that question. I would say, I would say about three things. Number one, I would say my first, my best job is being a mom, it’s the hardest one. So that’s a really, really important part of me, because my son is almost 16. And I learned from him daily, about you know, how how we connect as humans and how we can learn from unlikely sources. The creative part, that, in terms of the problem solving piece, I think comes in from a family of photographers. And so I am a landscape photographer, and that’s one of my important creative outlets. And I would say the third thing is we’ve really been, we love to do like icebreakers, our team, when we do our team meetings, and I was, our head of ops, his turn was if you could be any animal, what would it be? And I’ve been really vibing with my choice, which is I’d be a bird if I could be any animal because I love to travel. And it feels like I’d be really free like floating around in the sky and going where I want to go. So think is important for folks to know I’d be a bird, if I could be, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that. I love all of that. But remind me, you said a family of photographers.
Natalie E Norfus
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So who else is shooting?
Natalie E Norfus
So, my father has been a jazz and blues photographer for 50 years.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Nice.
Natalie E Norfus
And I am an only child and I grew up in Cleveland and Cleveland had a, still has, but at the time had a huge jazz scene like when I was growing up. So I was at Oberlin Finney Chapel at Oberlin College, like sleeping on pews because I thought jazz was really boring when I was little. You know, I got to see Dizzy Gillespie at the Cleveland Zoo, like I was –
Sarah Noll Wilson
What!?
Natalie E Norfus
Always places with my dad and I got my first camera when I was like 10.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Wow!
Natalie E Norfus
And so my dad has always been into people. If you see him, he always has a camera with him. He always has one around his neck. In fact, I was in Cleveland for Labor Day weekend, and I met him at a jazz club. And it was like he didn’t ever get up to take pics but he had his camera and I was like oh my god dad I don’t think I’ve ever sat through an entire set with you. Like we’re we just got to listen to music together because he’s usually like running around taking pictures, which is like my life, right, is with with cameras. But my dad’s a people person taking pictures and I was like trees and sky and water. And I didn’t get the whole like people piece of taking photos until I had my son. He was like my muse and then I got it because you it helps you sort of capture these incredible moments in time. And so when I started taking pictures of people it was kids because it’s so fun to run around and follow, like I don’t, like when the kids are little like they get all, their invited to everybody’s birthday parties. So it’s always like a bouncy house slide with water and pizza. And in Miami they get really crazy. They’ll have like ponies and all kinds of stuff and just kept capturing like those moments of kids being kids and like the water fights and all that stuff. It was just mesmerizing for me so it helped me understand my dad more. And like I’m like, you don’t want to take pictures of trees, Dad? Like you don’t want the sky? Like, look at this sunset. So there’s that. On my mom’s side, my, I never got a chance to meet him. But my grandfather was a photographer. My mother was a photographer. That’s kind of what connected my parents when they were in college. And now, my son is a photographer. And he’s got many art forms, but he goes to school for photography, which has been just like this wild like, evolution, because I told him, I mean, you’re gonna exceed me and Grandpa in your skill set, because he’s learning like the new digital techniques. But he’s super super into film, so his film photos are like, stunning, you know. So it’s, it’s just like wild, but also just like, it’s surreal. But it’s so affirming in that people, like you get exposed to really cool things. And it helps you find your way like your own way in terms of what what works for you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that, the legacy of the hobby. And I think it’s interesting, also just I was, it’s a really beautiful lead into this conversation around human connection is also just the evolution of it, and how each person’s personality and lived experience and time that they’re living in and the technology they’re using, how that shapes. That’s so it’s so it’s so beautiful. And I hope, I don’t know, I’m imagining I hope there’s some wall of here’s, here’s one of your shots, here’s one of your dad’s shots, here’s one of your son’s shots.
Natalie E Norfus
That’s our dream, actually, is like a three generation exhibit. For me, being in the middle of my dad and my son, it’s been really fascinating because there’s such a big generational difference. And I think it’s like, I think I alluded to earlier, like you learning from the most unlikely sources. I think sometimes my dad thinks he has all the information there is to convey, you know about photography. And it’s like, my son is doing stuff my dad and I could have never like imagined. You know, like, there was this period where like, he would come sit with me, and I’m like, What are you doing? He’s like, I’m watching cinematography videos to get ideas on – and I’m like, I know, my dad’s not doing that, not because he should or shouldn’t, but just, it’s like, you can learn from this kid too, you know. So I think it’s been fun to see, being a lawyer breaks some of that traditional, creative mind. And they both are super creative mind. So seeing how sometimes they could show up in this kind of, like, disorganized way, but it’s like they have they have a method to the madness and watching both sides of it, you know, and then being the one to try to encourage people to finish projects.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughter)
Natalie E Norfus
You know, can we finish something before we go to 10 others? You know, it’s like, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
I feel, I feel seen, not because I’m you. Because I need somebody like you. (laughter)
Natalie E Norfus
And it allows you to, when you think about, just if we think about this thread on creating that human connection. And this idea of being intentional about how you build relationships with people. I think about my son where it’s like, because he has multiple art forms, he has this tendency to start lots of things, right. He’s got a sewing machine. He’s got a mannequin in there, where he’s does all his visual art, his sketches, and then he starts to build on a clothing piece, while the one the piece he’s been working on has been there for about three weeks, because now he’s moved on to a painting. And so like, he’s got all these different things. And he explains it, like it’s not that I lose interest in one, I just find something I’m more interested in.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Natalie E Norfus
And so he had an art teacher last year, who really connected with him and in a really meaningful way of just like, encouraging him. And so I talked to him at the end of the school year. I’m like, you know, it’s so cool that you know, TJ loves working with you, and you think you could like maybe talk to him about like finishing? And so when he was talking about his view of TJ, what clicked for me is that sometimes his vision is bigger than his current capability.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Natalie E Norfus
So like, he’s got these huge, cool ideas, and doesn’t either have like all the resources or the skill set yet to accomplish what he sees in his head. So I was like, Well, maybe if you think about, like, what you could actually accomplish, you’ll build, right? And like, when I think about the connection, it’s like, okay, now I’m digging in deep to understand what’s important to him. I’m not an expert in how to help him figure out how to, you know, finish. Listening to someone who really spent that time with him day in and day out, and then you bring it back to okay, what I can help you with is like some tools, okay. And they said, look, if you finish smaller projects, it’s going to help you finish the bigger things, you know, as you move forward.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Well, and I, and you and I talked about this a little bit, I think we talked about this. And, and, and, you know, the honoring of just how the brain works, especially, especially if he has ADHD, it’s the like, were notorious for like, I don’t know, but –
Natalie E Norfus
I don’t – we’ve actually – it’s so funny because at some point he thought he did. And we go to the doctor and she’s like, tell me why you think that – and she’s amazing and she just sat there and she’s like, you don’t have it. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Cuz I’m always like, ya know, I’ve got my jewelry box of when I was going to start getting into jewelry making and I did it for a while. And then I got into quilting and I, I did one quilt that was way more complicated than my skills were, like, ready for. But one of the things that I’ve learned for myself and embracing that for other people, too, is like, the joy isn’t necessarily in the completion, the joy is in the discovery and the exploration, which only makes the next project or the next, you know, hobby, whatever that looks like different or informed or evolved.
Natalie E Norfus
Well, and I think that it’s such an important point, right? It’s not that every single, every single thing he starts needs to be finished. It’s more so finish something, right? Like, because we you know, think it and I think even if you think about how we approach our work with our clients, it’s like, we really never tried to push more than three to five goals. I mean, five is a lot, frankly.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Natalie E Norfus
Because it’s like, you can’t do it all at once.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Natalie E Norfus
And so this idea of, yes, honor your space and your path. And maybe you see this project, and you’re like, yeah, that’s not going to really get me where I want to be, or it doesn’t really fit my personal ethos anymore. That’s cool. It’s just this idea of find something that finished because there’s there is some joy in completing too. So it’s striking that balance between what serves you, and you know, what can move you forward in terms of your own personal goals.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. So talk to us about your journey and connecting it to this lens of, this topic of human connection. What’s what’s been, you know, the journey to this point that’s really driving the work that you’re doing?
Natalie E Norfus
So, you know, I always say my unofficial start, in DEI was my own upbringing. I have parents that are different races. Well, my mom passed, but I have parents that are we’re different races from one another, different religions from one another. You know, my mother had one brother and a very, very small family. My father had six siblings, I have 10,000 million cousins. You know, the, we didn’t really interact much with my mom’s side of the family. My dad’s side of the family, my grandmother was like, we all had to be together as often and as long as possible. And so learning about both sides of my family and learning about, you know, grandparents and great grandparents that came over to the US during the Holocaust. And grandparents, you know, worked in the fields in Georgia and moved north like a lot of black Americans. It’s like, it was always super fascinating. My mom was a teacher. And so she really did this really phenomenal job of like, she created this really cool family tree. I have the coolest – I would love if we ever met in person, but I feel like the coolest baby book. Because she took such great care and so it’s like seeing the family tree. And, and so it was always so interesting to me to hear like the stories like she somehow with whatever her father and grandparents came with, from Germany, they had all these, like postcards that people wrote to each other in German. And I’ve been able to get some of them translated just to see like, what were they even communicating about? So it was that fascination with human interaction and where people come from to understand different perspectives. And it really follow through you know, from there. I mean, I went to high school in DC. So I was able to start taking classes at George Washington when I was 16. And it was always like Political Science, Islamic Humanities, African Studies, like I was so laser focused on like, I just want to learn about all different types of people. I was an international studies major in college. I picked the law school I went to because I really was interested in immigration. And it was like the third most expensive law school at the time, and I passed up a full scholarship. It was worth it. But expensive, but it was like about that piece and I had, being an immigration clinic at GW, it helps me kind of define this current path because the amount of emotion it took to kind of help folks who were trying to seek asylum and the like, I didn’t know if I could do that full time. But I did know I wanted to people centered practice area. So that’s how I landed on labor and employment. It was funny they sent us this like, selection sheet like about two months before we started working. I was like choosing and I’m like Tax? No. Corporate? No. Labor Employment? Yes! Yes! That’s it! That seems like that’s people centered. And so that’s, that’s really the been the path is really understanding what motivates people, understanding where communication breaks down, understanding how to connect people to each other, and with people like me and other people. It’s just, it’s just so important. Like it’s just part of my DNA at this point.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. The, that’s really, it’s fascinating to hear about your upbringing and your childhood, and how that connects to even the point you made in your introduction of just, you know, I’m always learning from different perspectives and that that that openness and that curiosity. So when you, when you look at, when you look at the state of where work is right now, and right now folks who are listening to this, we’re recording it end of September 2023. And what’s your sense from your vantage points of the people that you’re working with of where we are related to the human side of work? (chuckles) Where do you think we need to be going? And I’m just, I’m just curious to hear your perspective on that. Because I know you work with a lot of organizations and like me, you get this beautiful front row view, not just to where the organization’s are going, but how that’s impacting the individual people who are within that organization. So what’s what’s like your sense of the State of the Union?
Natalie E Norfus
So if you look at it from the standpoint of, we have clients that are nonprofit, for profit, single state or city, multiple countries, multiple states, there’s going to be something very unique about each workplace. But the common thread, really sort of two common threads that we see, first and foremost, no matter which conversations we’ve had with employees, and in terms of the different countries, we’ve had the opportunity to talk to folks in, they really, really yearn authentic human connection. It comes up in so many different ways. And so it really drives us and how we talk to our clients. Because it’s like the authenticity is really the important piece of what folks want. Like that you really are coming to me as I am, not as you want me to be, or you think I am, right. Like you’re taking that time to hear me. So that’s one really big, overarching piece. And then I say the second piece, and I would bring this more so to the US, is people are really moving away from this living to work concept. And I think, well, there’s so many sort of tragedies that came out of the pandemic, if we were looking at a silver lining is that I did seem to provide a reset for folks. And so what we see regularly is people are much more protective of their boundaries. There’s a lot more reflection on like, what role work, plays in their life. And I think in terms of we’re sort of at this, these early stages of people saying I’m not trying to be burnt down, you hear people talking about that they’re admitting to burnout, admitting to like, they don’t want that. And so I think where that leaves many leaders today is trying to, to really just accept that, right? Because there’s still this like, resistance. But, but, but, you know, you’re like, Hey, but guys, you guys get to decide how fast or slow you get. Like, there isn’t like somebody saying, like, you must work 70 hours a week to accomplish. Like, there’s no rule around that, like we get to recreate the rules here. And so if I would say like, where do we need to be in this journey of the workplace is just resetting on what it means to work in this country. And really let go of some of the old cultural norms because people are bucking them left and right. And I personally don’t see any end to it, because it wasn’t sustainable the way we were operating before.
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, it’s, it’s the – yeah, the timing, the timing of this conversation is so beautiful, because the guest, we were just talking with, Maxine, we were talking about really similar things because it’s the reality. It’s, you know, and whether we’re talking about it through a company lens, or an organization lens, or through even just a personal lens. It’s, you know, and that that language you use of yearning, I know is, I assume is really intentional on your part.
Natalie E Norfus
Oh totally.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That it, isn’t just, oh, I want it but I’m yearning for it. And that, that being seen as me and meeting me in the middle, or not meeting me in the middle, but like meeting me as me, I guess is what’s coming up for me. What? You know, when you think about where we’re at, and this tension we’re in because it does feel like we’re in this tension point. They’re sort of like old guard. And when I say old guard, I’m not necessarily saying age.
Natalie E Norfus
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Because I work with leaders, as I’m sure you do, who are our age or maybe even younger, who are very much command and control or we got to keep things the way it’s been. Then there’s new guard and then there’s people who are are like I want new guard. But I’ve got one foot in old guard and I don’t know who I am (laughs) and how I want to show up. But there does feel like this a, this just protection of like clinging to, for some folks. And what are the questions you wish leaders were thinking about now that maybe they aren’t? Or maybe you’re helping them think about and it has been really provocative as far as what does this look like as we move forward in a much more human centered way?
Natalie E Norfus
There’s two big ones. One is defining your personal why. So what, what do you, I mean one of the questions, you know, I often ask is, What do you want your legacy to be as a leader? And what is your WHY around that? Because I think if you don’t have a personal Northstar, it’s very easy to get swept up in, but we’ve done it this way kind of mentality. I think the other piece is have you taken time to figure out what motivates your team, right? Because there’s a still a very large presumption that everyone is trying to climb the corporate ladder. And many people have opted out of that sort of linear path. Success looks like something different for different people. And I always say that if you don’t know what motivates people on your team, and not like a collective motivation, that’s actually gonna be a cool exercise at some point. But what what motivates the individual? Because if we’re we see people keep clashing was like, what, they’re not gonna grow that way. Did they ever say they wanted to grow? Right? Maybe they’re fine making the money they make right now and the position they have right now. And they’re just as happy there, and they’re not looking for something different. And we have to be okay with the fact that not everyone is trying to be a CEO and make millions of dollars like, like, I think that’s what these leaders who have been in power for decades, I think they just cannot fathom that, well, what do you mean, you don’t want to have a private jet? You know, kind of like those types of reactions. And so those would be the two, two big ones. You know, the last thing I would say, is not so much a question, but something we constantly encourage, which really ties a bit to the why is doing that self exploration. Is very hard to show up authentically if you don’t have some idea of where your blind spots are. If you don’t have some idea of what makes you uncomfortable. If you don’t have some idea of like, the things you do that can be annoying to other people, like, if you’re not taking that time to like look within all of this becomes very difficult.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s the, I always like, I think we have really good BS meters as humans, you know, and and this has come up in a number of conversations and like, we talk about it as well as I mean, we’re just really good as humans to say you say this, and yet you’re behaving in this way. And one of the things I’m curious to get your thoughts on, something that I’ve started to hear from individuals who are in these formal positions of power. And I’ll be really explicit, all of them to this point, have been white men. So I’m just like, so I’m not generalizing, but this has been it. And the things that some of them are starting to reflect on is, essentially, I can feel that things are shifting towards a more human people first approach, more real commitment by some organizations from an inclusion perspective, from a diversity and equity perspective. And in feeling like, I don’t know that I’m the right leader for this time. Because they’ve, you know, and again, I’m not, a lot of leaders, regardless of their identity, have been rewarded for their technical knowledge, not not necessarily their ability to listen to and connect with people. And so I’m just I’m curious, you know, what would you respond to that or what comes up for you in your own work, as you think about where we’re, where is like, collective worker is moving and where folks are, who are still in those positions of power related to that?
Natalie E Norfus
I think it’s such a great question. And there’s two pieces of it. If we look at the, the sort of employee type side of things. When you put together all that we’ve talked about so far, there’s another piece to this, which people have a much shorter fuses than they did before. And I think, Well, I’m not a psychologist, and I’m really looking forward to like all the studies that are come out, there’s there clearly was some damage to our collective, collective psyche, during the pandemic. And so when I think about it from like the investigation standpoint, the investigation complaints I’m getting are like, wild, right? Like, if I look at the last three years and the types of nuanced things that people are sort of complaining about, it’s indicating to me that people are it’s like we’re at like a pressure cooker point. And so I think, I say that because if you’re not sure if you’re the right leader, maybe you walk to the side and make space for someone who is because to your point around the BS meter, people don’t, like we said, we said earlier on our own podcast, stop playing with people, right, because like, like it’s really frankly, dangerous, you know. We’ve been in meetings where we’ve seen employees, like seething about something, and I’m looking at like CEOs, like, like this is that this is someone who might come slashed your tires. And I’m not saying that to be funny. It’s like, you push people to a point with inaction and platitudes and lip service. Like, it’s not the same as it was before, like people just they have, in some ways, they have a lot, a lot to lose, in some ways they don’t. Because it’s like, you know what, like, so you want to be thoughtful of if you’re feeling that tension, and maybe you’re not, you don’t know that you’re equipped to address it. One answer from me would be step to the side make space for someone else. I had a leader asked me like, at what point am I just not effective? I’m like, sometimes you have to decide that for yourself. And I gave an example of, you know, some board leadership I’ve had on a nonprofit where I realized my voice has been so active for a long time, that it wasn’t as effective, and that there needed to be another voice. And it’s not because I’m not capable. It’s not because I’m not interested. But it’s, um, my voice is not having the impact I’m hoping for. So I could continue, I could fight it, you know, I could try to swim upstream and like fight it and like, no, because I know. Or I can say, there are so many other people without similar knowledge or skill sets that I have. And it may be someone else’s turn. And I’m totally okay with that. So I think we have to get comfortable with walking away. And not saying that as quitting, but saying, like, I’ve done all that I can do for this organization. And now it’s time to move on. If you don’t feel like you’re in that space to move on. I strongly, strongly encourage people to get therapy, get an executive coach, get someone who can, is neutral and is not biased toward you in some way because they know you or they’ve worked with you, to help you, you know, help you have a reflection of yourself. My co host and head of DEI strategy Shante Gordon, I love how she talks about when she does coaching with people, she she serves as a mirror like a reflection to help them see how they show up. To help them see some of the ways in which they can be agitating folks, the ways in which they might be obstacles or maybe indecision. Indecision has been one of the biggest problems we encounter with leaders right now. And that really frustrates people. So sort of digging into like, what is what is what is stopping you? What is stopping you from making this decision? Like, what is it about this that’s showing up for you that’s really difficult? And so, you know, we really try to push in that way as well.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Your your perspective as being somebody who’s on on the other side of escalated complaints or investigations is it’s really interesting to hear that observation of the short fuse. And, and that whole idea of a lot, a lot more people collectively are saying, I just I don’t want to tolerate this anymore. I don’t I don’t want to put up with this anymore. And it does feel like we’re in this. We’re not in a revolution. It’s not that significant. I mean, I’m ready for the revolution.
Natalie E Norfus
Yeah, right. It’s definitely a movement, it’s a movement.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It is a movement, and it’s people who are – people who have maybe not even been in, like maybe have been in a position of privilege or been protected. And, and I’m seeing more and more people who are questioning things that I wouldn’t have seen question things.
Natalie E Norfus
I’m one of those people. I’m one of those people.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Same.
Natalie E Norfus
After George Floyd was murdered, I really had to take a step back. And I was like, you know, and I had this conversation with a number of my friends who are black professionals of, for some of us, we felt like we made it, right. Like, we went to law school, or you went to grad school, and we’re lawyers, and we’re engineers, and we’re doctors, and you’re doing all these great things. And like that’s it and so then I can speak for myself, like, I kind of dimmed my own voice because I’m like, well, you know, I’m like, work these big companies and do these really great things and I don’t want to jeopardize that thing. And there was just something about that moment where I’m like this, excuse my language, bullshit, right? Like, you were raised to use your voice. I don’t ever really shut up, honestly. But I also was very careful about the words I was using. And it was a moment of like, No, we, we, we have to use, like the voice in its entirety. And so I think a lot of us had, again, it’s that reflection of like, what’s my purpose here, if I’m watching things that I know are wrong, or I’m tolerating things that, you know, kill my spirit. And I think that’s really what we’re dealing with now. Because, you know, people have gone through years and years of, you know, well I’m working really hard, but it’s like I can, I can barely pay all my bills, or, you know, whatever the case may be, and as they, you know, is it really worth it? And so, you know, when I’m talking to leaders, a lot because like, you know, especially leaders who’ve been around for a while, you know, they they get frustrated when people don’t see it, and I’m like, you constantly have to be able to show the value proposition of working at this place. You cannot rest on your laurels, you cannot say, well, look at me, because it’s for some of them, you’ve been in the workforce, 40, 50 years longer than, you know, people you work with. And so, like, there’s gotta be some give and take there. And I don’t think it’s all on the employers. I do want to be clear there.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Natalie E Norfus
But I think at this point, there had been such an imbalance, where employees felt generally very used, you know, over the past 20 years, that a lot more onus is on employers until there’s a little bit more equanimity, you know, in terms of that balance.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I, I just want to keep talking about this. And I know, we need to be thoughtful of time. (laughter) And, and I already know, you’re going to be coming back on the show at some point.
Natalie E Norfus
I’d love to.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m always just like, yeah, you’re gonna be, repeat, repeat, a repeat guest.
Natalie E Norfus
I’d love to.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I just, I think that that thing that that’s such a great point that you bring up of you constantly have to be showing the value. And, and in a really authentic way, it can’t just be transactional anymore. People want to be seen, they want to be heard, they, you know, I think of the the work of Tara Jaye Frank, and I’m looking at her book right now, actually, The Waymakers, and she talks about people want to be seen, they want to be valued, they want to be respected, and they want to be protected. And, and it can’t just be enough to say, well, we’re paying you well. Like if I’m not treated well.
Natalie E Norfus
Well, and you can’t just say we have an open door policy. You can’t just say, oh, but here’s the value of the bene – like the dollar value of your benefits. I mean, I think that’s like a really sort of interesting point, too. Because when you think about, you know, what are the things that are impacting people right now, right, is needing space to take care of ourselves. Needing space to disconnect. I actually was doing an investigation where I had to be in St. Croix, earlier this week, and incidentally, and very randomly, my mom lived there for a very long time. So I have been to the island many, many times. And there’s this part of the island, the north side of the island, where it is like, so quiet, and there’s very few people sounds. And even two nights, there it in, I’ve stayed in this really small hotel that’s like right on the water. So all you really can hear mostly is like waves crashing on the cliff. And when you’re walking, it’s like waves crashing on the right. Birds and other animal sounds on the left, very, very few cars. And so it’s this really important moment of solitude. And I was having conversations in my head as I was walking, and I was getting really frustrated about just, you know, challenging situations. And it was a really interesting sort of way, I was able to interrupt the thought in that moment, of like, wow, like, each time I’ve come to this island, since my mom passed, I’ve gotten stronger. And I’ve made progress. And I can come here and enjoy this place in a much different way. And it’s so peaceful, and it brings me so much peace. And so it soon becomes super easy to focus on all the things that are challenging. And we lose sight of like the progress that we make. And so I think if you tie that back to this point around, you know, okay, you come and say dollar value of benefits are X. Have you gone and talk to people about whether they even feel like they have time to use their benefits. And for those who feel like they have had time. What has that done for them? Do these benefits make sense for the workplace you have now? We talk a lot about, you know, don’t just offer people a bunch of stuff if they’re never going to get time to use it because it’s just going to feel like one more thing. It’s not like a thing people say, Oh, but it’s so good that we have yoga classes. And it’s like, it’s not about good, bad, right, wrong. If people don’t have time to do it, it’s gonna feel stressful.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Natalie E Norfus
Like I can’t, like, I have to go make an appointment or I have to show? I don’t even have time to do that. So I think if we’re just thinking about, like, you know, closing this part of our discussion, because it’s definitely not the end. This, this human connection piece is just, it’s the word that we use a lot around being intentional and saying, not just saying, but I give you all these things, but it’s like, are they the things you actually need to make you feel whole? Because whole people are gonna bring their best selves, you know, to work.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So beautifully said.
Natalie E Norfus
Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m so grateful that Jacquette connected us.
Natalie E Norfus
Oh, my gosh, we are like your two biggest fans.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) And I’m so glad that we got to introduce our audience to you. So Natalie, for people who are interested in working with your team who are interested in learning about more about you, and the work you all do, what is the best way for people to connect with you?
Natalie E Norfus
I appreciate the question. You can find us at the Norfus Firm.com. And that’s n o r f like Frank, u s like Sam. We are on all the platforms under the Norfus Firm, and on Instagram. We also have, What’s The DEIL, and that is D E I L. So, that stands for diversity, equity, inclusion and leadership. And so we’d love you know, for y’all to connect, because there’s so many of these cool topics that we’re always like interested in talking about, and we can’t wait for you to join us.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, super excited.
Natalie E Norfus
This conversation gonna take a whole lot of different.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh yeah.
Natalie E Norfus
We are going to be all over the place on point.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We also need it I want to have a conversation at some point with how we’re trying to build our businesses differently. Because you and I are trying to do very different more human centered approaches to building it. And I know like like us, it’s like we want to prove that you can be successful, financially successful without burning out people in the process.
Natalie E Norfus
Exactly. Exactly.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you so much, Natalie. We appreciate having you.
Natalie E Norfus
Thank you! It’s a pleasure.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guests this week has been Natalie Norfus, and I’m still chewing on that idea of how are we navigating the short fuses and not and also from the place of people are setting boundaries and they don’t, they don’t want to tolerate things anymore. I think we’re just in this really interesting movement in evolution. And as always, we want to hear from you. What resonated for you, what connected for you, what questions came up for you? You can always send me an email at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson.com. Or you can send me a direct message on social media where my DMs are always open. But in full disclosure, LinkedIn is probably going to be your best bet at this point. Also, if you haven’t already, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us increase exposure so we can continue to bring on great guests like Natalie. And if you’re interested in supporting the show financially, consider becoming a patron. You can go to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where your financial support will support this team. And you’ll get some pretty great swag.
Finally, just a huge thank you as always to the team that makes the show possible. To our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionists Becky Reinert, to our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo crew. Thank you. And just a big final thank you to Natalie Norfus for coming on the show, giving us her time. I have no doubt we are going to have continued conversations with her and it’s been such a gift to meet her. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening and remember my friends, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others we can change the world. So till next time, please be sure to rest, rehydrate and I’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.