Join Sarah Noll Wilson as she celebrates the show’s 100th episode with a deep dive into the evolving nature of workplace relationships. Guests Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell, Dr. Teresa Peterson, and Brandon Springle share insights on building connections in virtual settings, fostering inclusion, and the vital role of empathetic leadership in creating supportive work environments.
ABOUT
For almost two decades, Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell has been helping organizations and leaders become more effective and inclusive through her engaging diversity and inclusion professional learning sessions, leadership development programs and equity & cultural proficiency coaching. Gilmara has worked with HR managers, chief diversity officers, and other leaders to create more inclusive work environments. Gilmara has collaborated with organizations from the private and public sector, in a variety of industries. Gilmara has supported organizations develop strategic plans, create equity driven monitoring tools, create more inclusive cultures, and learn more about equity-driven leadership. Born in Brazil, Gilmara moved to the United States in 2001. She holds a Bachelor of Multicultural Education from FUMEC University (Brazil) and a MSE in School Counseling from Drake University. Gilmara has a focused her doctoral studies in Organizational Behavior with a focus on trust in the workplace.
Dr. Teresa Peterson is the Director of Learning and Development for Sarah Noll Wilson, Inc. In her daily work, she serves as Sarah’s key content collaborator. Teresa enjoys facilitating, researching, and is passionate about applying best practices for learning to make our experiences meaningful, engaging, and accessible for all types of learners. Teresa holds a Doctorate in Education from the University of Northern Iowa and brings over twenty years of experience teaching, facilitating, and leading to our team. Our clients love Teresa’s grounded energy, depth of thought, and ability to listen deeply.
Brandon Springle is a dedicated HR (Human Resources) Leader with over 15 years of evolving experience working in multiple industries including Manufacturing, Background Screening, Health Insurance, and Sports & Entertainment. Brandon currently serves as a Divisional OD and Success Director at Shaw Industries where he has spent the past 9+ years. Brandon is a certified psychological safety coach using the “4 Stages of Psychological Safety” framework. Brandon is also certified as a Change Manager with intimate knowledge of the ADKAR process. Brandon is a senior leader focused on providing an amazing experience at all levels through a service-oriented approach that is rooted firmly in psychological safety. Brandon recognizes that there is power in aligning individually diverse talents to a shared vision where success is dependent upon the collective brain trust of the “team”. More than anything, Brandon loves to see people thriving as opposed to simply surviving. Brandon enjoys spending time with his wife and four children in his personal time. Brandon enjoys his hobbies which include reading, writing, music production, and all things basketball.
- Website: www.sarahnollwilson.com
- Gilmara’s LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/gilmara-vila-nova-mitchell
- Gilmara’s Email: gilmara@sarahnollwilson.com
- Teresa’s LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/teresa-peterson-EdD
- Teresa’s Email: teresa@sarahnollwilson.com
- Brandon’s LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/bspringle
- Brandon’s Email: brandon@sarahnollwilson.com
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations On Conversations, where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I am your host, as always. Sarah Noll Wilson. My friends, before we hop into this week’s conversation, we need to take a moment and celebrate. Today, this episode is episode 100 and this is such a moment of celebration for me, for the team, and hopefully for those of you who have joined us on this journey. You know, most podcasts actually don’t make it past episode six or eight, so our goal was always 50, and the fact that we’re here at 100 and we have a plan for the next 100 is just so exciting, and it’s such a gift. And I want to take a moment and thank all of you. For those of you who are joining us recently, those of you who have been with us since the beginning, you know who you are. And to everyone who joins us across the world. We are – have amazing listeners in over 80 countries now, and we have just had the privilege of being in conversation with incredible humans.
I also just want to take a personal moment to share how meaningful this experience has been. You know, not only do I get to meet just some incredible people and learn from them. But what you don’t realize about the show is that it’s actually quite of a family affair, and so I want to just take a moment to give some love to the team that makes this show possible. For those of you who’ve been listening for a while, you know that my husband, Nick Wilson, is our producer. So he listens to every episode, and then after every episode, he and I debrief, and we talk about what was resonant and what questions came up for us. And we always have such great conversations. My brother, Drew Noll, is our sound editor, and makes it sound really good. And so what’s always fun is Sunday night at 1am when he’s doing the episode, (laughs) I usually get some text of some moment in the conversation that he was like, “Oh, my mind is blown!” And then my sister Becky does our transcriptions and and it’s just been such a blast because we’ve learned through the show, and we hope that you have learned something as well. And like I said, we’re not stopping. Episode 101 is a big deal for us, where we will be interviewing Dr. Amy Edmondson. So for those of you who are familiar with her work, she is an incredible Harvard business professor who has really led the charge over the last 30 years on psychological safety. She is one of the foremost thought leaders in our space and field, and we’re actually going to be recording it later today. As I’m recording this, I’m super duper excited.
A couple of other things that I want to know. You know, as we have grown as a company and what we’re focusing on, one of the things that is going to be a change is the cadence of these episodes. So we are going to shift for the foreseeable future, from weekly episodes to bi weekly episodes. This allows us to make sure that we have enough time to meet with the really high quality guests that we’re able to have on the show, to make sure that we’re giving it the time and attention it needs, and you know, and for me to be able to make sure I’m not burning myself out in the process. Because you all know that I’m very pro rest, and so this is part of how we’re balancing it. So if there are authors, if there are people that you would love for us to consider having it on the show, even if it’s somebody you don’t know, but it’s a moonshot, like, Wouldn’t it be cool if you interviewed this person? Let us know, because we’re so excited to be in this place. All right, so for this week’s episode, to celebrate our 100 I invited my colleagues, so we have this core group of facilitators and coaches that we get to work with on a regular basis. So Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell is joining us. We have had her on the show a number of times. She comes with an incredible background in diversity, equity and inclusion. She is a phenomenal coach, and I have never seen somebody who can step into heated conversations and reduce the heat as well as she does. My colleague, Dr. Teresa Peterson, is joining us, and many of you have heard our interviews together. Teresa brings with her over 20 years of experience. She works with our clients in such meaningful ways and just provides such a balance, right, to the way that I show up, and one of my favorite people to work with. And then finally, my friends. And actually, this is a big announcement. We have Brandon Springle, who has been on the show previously, and we have been working together. We haven’t announced it yet, but he has become one of our strategic partners, and so he is helping us with research, he is helping us with experiential design, writing articles, and will eventually start taking on coaching clients and consulting clients as schedules allow. So we’re so excited. So today, we thought for our 100th episode that we would just do a State of the Union of what we’re seeing related to conversations. So please enjoy the show. Thank you again, so much for being with us for the last 99 episodes and for this 100th and we cannot wait to see what the next 100 episodes brings us. So, take it away pre-recorded Sarah.
Hello and welcome everyone to this week’s very, very special Gala Edition of Conversations On Conversations, where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I am your host, Sarah Noll Wilson and joining me today for again, our very special edition, my friends, it is episode 100 and so joining me is members of our dream team, Teresa Peterson, Dr Teresa Peterson
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Hi!
Sarah Noll Wilson
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell.
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Hello, everyone.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And Mr. Brandon Springle.
Brandon Springle
Hello.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So what we thought would be fun to do is to to celebrate this, one is to do our first ever team chat. So this will be a fun experiment, and to bring you what is our State of the Union when it comes to relationships and conversations in the workplace. We know that our success is impacted by the quality of our relationships, which is impacted by the quality of our conversations, and so we’re going to see how this goes! But first, just, you know, a big, big, exciting moment to celebrate 100. Okay, State of the Union, I’m going to come to you first Gilmara. You ready, and then everyone else will answer this. How have you seen the nature of workplace relationships evolve over the last few years.
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Well, I have seen a huge shift after covid, because we were all working remotely, a lot of us, and then once things calmed down, people started working hybridly or returning to the office, I think it felt strange, you know, and we had to relearn what did that mean for us, and how do we connect? How do we talk? How do we have conversations in person, again? And so I have felt that we are in this stage where we are relearning how to connect in person. It doesn’t feel natural yet. That’s what I have seen with the clients I have worked with and in my own experience.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. Other thoughts?
Brandon Springle
Similar, similar sentiment. But really this, this remote socialization thought process. You know, there’s not a lot of research that’s been done. We kind of understand what it looks like in person, and we have developed that skill set over time, but remote socialization is a whole nother concept. And so how do you build relationships via the screen? How do you build relationships when you were looking at 20 people on one screen in a Brady Bunch sort of thought process, right? Where you have all these different facial expressions, some people on camera, some people off camera, you can’t pick up the cues. So, you know, from a perspective of the way that our brain functions and the amount of details that we’re taking in, we get overload, and it’s difficult sometimes to connect. So just really learning how do we have conversation on the virtual screen with multiple people? I think that’s been pretty interesting to see.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Teresa?
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah. I think I agree with everything that’s been said. And I think a slightly different angle coming up for me too is when, when those conversations or those relationships are overlooked in the sake, like in the name of busyness or in the name of completion, and sometimes the choice is conscious or not that we make to not build in that time for connection. I’m thinking about so many stories we’ve heard of pressure to return to work only to still have virtual meetings, but in this shared physical space. So I think there are just so many layers to it. I think, I think what I see is, I think while people simultaneously were realizing or really appreciating the value of relationship and connection, when we were, many of us were home and isolated. And honestly, if you were at work during covid, you probably still felt a degree of isolation. And now I feel like there’s a, there’s like a no, no, just get back to work. You know, there’s there – in some organizations we serve, there’s definitely been, you know, “Just shut up and get busy again. But do it here. Thanks.” (laughs) So that’s that’s, in the spectrum of things, I think that would be one of them that that feels important to mention.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. I think you know, what I would add is the, there is a need, and I, and we see this in the conversations we have with clients. And we see this whether it’s, you know, coaching conversations or facilitated discussions, or even just our own, there is this craving for connection, and also this like protection of who you want to give this connection to, if that makes sense, right? Like of you know, I really want to, I missed out on so many years with my family members or friends, and I want to pour into them, or, you know, people’s tolerance of being treated so transactionally at work has gone down and and so while there is this, like, yeah, I mean this real need for connection, I feel in a way that was always present before, but never felt urgent for folks, if that makes sense? Like we know connections important, it was always necessary. And so that’s that’s been, that’s just been a really interesting dynamic.
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Yeah, I agree. I have to add, what Teresa said really resonates for me. I think we are, a lot of people are going back to the office, but it’s still very isolated. We’re doing the same stuff we were doing remotely, at the office, and so the connection is not taking place, but we’re physically present. And it’s a very weird experience, because we’re there, but we are protected with the physical space now, instead of the screen, and there is no real connection or communication taking place, in my opinion, a lot of times.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, what’s the like, what are the impacts of that? I mean, they can feel obvious. So that’s my first follow up question. It’s like, what’s the impact you’ve observed directly of that not being really intentional about building those relationships, whether it’s in the office or online. What’s the impact to, I mean, you can think about it in levels. What’s the impact to the organization, what’s the impact to the individuals, what’s the impact to our community?
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
I believe that if belonging is our number one need as humans, when you feel isolated and you feel you’re not connecting, your tendency is to check out. And so I think the impact for the company is huge, because people check out, they are there, but they are not emotionally hooked
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Something that came up as you were describing that, and what a beautiful connection to belonging. And I think maybe another level of that too is the resentment. And I see this going in lots of directions. Resentment from the team member maybe that I’ve been asked to be here and yet, maybe my leaders aren’t required to be here, so there’s a disconnect inherently there. Maybe resentment, the connections aren’t intentional, or like you saying, I have to be here and I’m in this physical space, but other people aren’t connecting. I might feel like I gave up a lot to make that change again. But, you know, I see this go the other direction. I see managers and organizational leaders who resent that team members want or expect a level of connection, you know, and that one for me, is far more troubling than the reverse. That they simultaneously want people to be extremely devoted to the work, but not to the workplace or not to the organization and the culture, just to the tasks. And so I think that can build a lot of resentment for folks.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, Brandon.
Brandon Springle
That brings me to a thought process around, you know, task oriented leadership versus relationship oriented leadership, right? Where you know, where you’re focused on the task. You really just want to get the results, you want to give the expectation, and really just get the work done. Whereas the relationship oriented leader focuses on knowing people individually, building that connection, seeing that they they mean, something, that they matter, and really seeking to maximize their strengths. And so you know, relationship oriented leadership requires more work per se, because you have to dig in deeper from a relational and conversational perspective, but the outcomes are much more successful when you’re really allowing people to lean into their strengths and really maximize their potential in doing so.
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
I love that. And one more thought. When I was listening to you, Brandon, what came to mind is that humans are not robots. We can’t go for three years operating in a way, and then click a button and expect people to come back and react like nothing had happened. And so we all are a bit traumatized. We all need some time to reconvene, regroup and learn again what it means to be physically present. And I think when we have transactional relationships at work and when the leadership style is task oriented, we don’t allow for that time to grieve, to process what you’re losing when you leave your house and go back to the office. To learn again, what does that mean to show up here and expose myself and be vulnerable. And I think a lot of leaders tend to want, in the sake of efficiency, to cut that step and ignore the trauma that people might be coming back with, the time that they might need, because we’re not robots. We don’t operate on a click of a button. And so I think what’s happening is there is a gap between how the transition has been led and what people need to regroup.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. It’s a it’s, you know, a connection I hadn’t thought about before, until this moment was, and I want to be really clear, though, you can have really great relationships virtually. You – for people who are listening, we’ve never met Brandon in person, and we’ve been able to develop a really strong relationship with him. And there are lots of, there are lots of clients we work with that we’ve literally never met, and we’ve worked with them for years. So, so I just want to, I want to make a real, like, clear statement. The, the, being in a virtual world or a hybrid world requires you to show up intentionally in a way that you weren’t demanded before, didn’t ask of you before. But, but one of the things that was coming up, Gilmara, around your language of like to be physically present is we know that, you know, when you’re on a screen, it’s so easy to be distracted with other things. It’s easy to have another window open. You know, we were talking this last week at a group that Mary and I were speaking at about how some teams never turn their camera on. And like, and I have like, I have a bit of a love hate relationship with that, of wanting to honor individual preferences, but also, what are we missing out on because we don’t see people? And I know for me, if I don’t see you – if I don’t know you, and I don’t see you – if I don’t know you, I don’t trust you and I don’t see you, I’m more likely to assume you’re not paying attention to me. And then I wonder, you know, like, where else does that, you know, level of distraction or inattentiveness show up and in our lives, right? Because we’re being so conditioned to multitask, even more so than we were before.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Gosh, there’s a lot to chew on there. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
I know where do we want to go?
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah.
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
I can tell Teresa, your wheels are turning.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah!
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
I love when they turn. Something really good comes out.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Well, yeah. Hashtag, no pressure. (laughter) You know, but I think I was thinking back to, it feels like a perfect moment of, and Brandon this goes back to that addition you made about relationship centered leaders. I believe that’s the term you use. Because I was thinking about teams we serve who have experimented their way to better connections, whether they’re in the same space or not, right? And and low cost, no cost things and agreements that they’ve done. And I wish I could think of who had said this, and it might come to me later. So whoever you are, I’m sorry that I can’t think of your name, but what their team had agreed to do is that the Monday morning meeting, they’d never required a camera on. They’re like you’re just barely holding yourself together probably. Just get there, pajamas, curlers, you know, bonnet, just get there. But they had two meetings a week where they did ask for cameras to be on, for the spirit of trust, for those non verbals, for the connection. Because I think, I think there are a lot of things happening there. You’re completely right. And I think we can’t emphasize enough, you can’t trust someone you don’t know. But knowing doesn’t mean you have to have met them, or you have to be sitting, you know, two feet from them. I think, you know, something I’ve been chewing on today related to connection and that pull of in person or virtual was the idea that we would love Brandon to visit, and I thought to myself for the rest of the day, how do we make it a special experience that something we can’t do when we’re virtual, because we can do pretty much everything that way, right? So which I know virtual hybrid isn’t the focus of our conversation, but I think in that spirit of connection, I think that’s a big friction point for people, is the is the pull of but I have stayed connected virtually, like the argument for coming back for many people, you know. And I think it came in waves. We had workplaces that allowed people to work from home and then continued that flexibility, you know, essentially forever. I think we had places that allowed people to work from home and put pressure on hot and hot and heavy very early, you know, far earlier than probably was comfortable for many people, if we’re being honest. But I think right now, at the time of our 100th episode, there is that friction point again and and I think what people aren’t understanding maybe is in the calculation of where you’re working, it’s more importantly how you’re working. Right? That the the physical space matters much less than the how you’re showing up when you’re together. And I’m with you, Gilmara, that I think, I think whether it’s in person or virtually, there is that element of, how do we, how do we properly partner? How do we actually show up for the other humans, and how do we do that in the backdrop of systems that value efficiency, you know, where the human experience isn’t considered that important, not in every organization, but certainly in many, certainly in many.
Brandon Springle
Oh, that gives me a thought, really, one of the thoughts that I’ve been having, really, all year and last year too, is and it’s an elephant to a degree, like, why are we having so many meetings, right? And there are individuals that sometimes will schedule meetings just because they can schedule meetings, and then they’re not thoughtful, they’re not intentional. There’s no real outcome. There’s not a strong relationship there. And when that happens, it’s almost seen as, well, you’re just wasting time in a time that productivity is a very high value. And so now we’re wasting time in meetings. We’re not going to be engaged because there’s really no reason for us to be having the meeting, and we can’t really get to the strategic or thoughtful work that we need to get to, or really even take the time to have a, you know, more informal sort of conversation, to build a relationship, because we’re too busy and in useless meetings. And I think there’s a lot of research out there that talks just about how much time is wasted in useless meetings. And so one thing that’s really critical for me, I try not to attend the meeting unless there’s a clear agenda and clear deliverables, and I try not to schedule a meeting unless there’s a clear agenda and clear deliverables. Now sometimes I have to step away from that, but generally, that’s been a rule of thumb, and it’s helped me manage and prioritize my time and also be more intentional with those that I am meeting with, so I have to make some choices.
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Don’t you think Brandon, because people are back sometimes at the office, leaders feel a sense of pressure to schedule meetings so that they feel there is a reason to be there. And I feel that has increased that sense of meeting just because of we’re here, you know.
Brandon Springle
Yes.
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
And and I also see, it’s very interesting. I always look at how people use meetings in an organization, and I have seen meetings being used to this, to to exclude people, to use as a power tool to connect with those who are valued and exclude and limit access to those who are not as appreciated. And so I think the way we deal with meetings tells you a lot about the culture.
Brandon Springle
Yeah.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
There’s something –
Brandon Springle
Thats –
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Oh, go ahead, Brandon.
Brandon Springle
No, you go ahead. I want to hear what you’re going to say.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah, well, I want to hear what you’re going to say. What made me think of Gilmara, was within the last couple of weeks I was talking to a leader, a very, very high level organizational leader, and they said about one person in general, but I think it likely applied to everyone this person managed, that the theory for this leader was that if the people’s plates weren’t at least 120% full, they would just get into trouble and do nothing, right? And so I with you on, like, we’ve got to schedule stuff. We’ve got to have more priorities than could ever be accomplished. In that sense, it the literally, it was like, if it’s not 120% and just falling over the sides of the plate, then what would get done around here, you know?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
And so like that element of control or of misunderstanding how people do their best work was, really, really hot for me.
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
And how many times we judge people based on how many meetings they have on their account.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yes!
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh yeah!
Dr. Teresa Peterson
(sarcastically) You must be so important!
Sarah Noll Wilson
You’re doing a lot of work because you have 10 meetings today.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
(laughs) I shouldn’t be laughing that hard, but, yeah, absolutely. Okay, wait, Brandon, go.
Brandon Springle
No, that was it’s just really a good conversation, because one of the things that you can determine by how people treat individuals that come into the office and just, you know, schedule meetings just to do it is really a sign of poor leadership and not really being able to lead individuals to results, having to be too, you know, focused on watching people and watching what they’re doing, as opposed to trusting and inspiring and setting the expectation and having clear deliverables and setting clear goals. You know, it depends on the type of work you’re doing, as far as what the approach needs to be, but there’s always a conversation even in that and because of things like, you know, microaggressions and different threat states that can come up from being in person, like, there’s been a lot of data to speak to, you know, certain marginalized communities or individuals find it much safer, you know, to be remote, and that’s something that we have to pay attention to. And so we have to be that much more inclusive when we come into the space, for many reasons. The other reason is because of the pandemic and covid. I know when I see people sneeze or cough or like it seems different than it did in 2018 to me as far as what I see in 2024. So there’s so many different social factors that can be taken as social threats that we have to be very intentional, deliberate and caring when we bring people into a kind of in person environment.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So we’ve been, okay, so we’ve been talking like higher level organization, organization team, dynamic, virtual versus not. I want to, I want to. I want us to get a little micro for a second. You know, one of the things that we’ve been talking about a lot and exploring is this idea of, what are those moments that miss the mark, right, between person to person? This could be at work, this could be at home, this could be with a colleague, this could be with a friend, this could be with a child, right? And, and so I’m curious, you know, what are those moments that you feel like missed the mark, and then this is something that I’ve been thinking about a lot. You know, Nick and I, we were having a conversation. We were having a conversation recently about an event that Teresa led, and and how there was, it was a really tough moment that came up of somebody sharing something that was pretty painful, right? And it was like the rest of the room got quiet because they didn’t know how to respond to it. And one of the things he and I was, we were talking about is he was like, I’m always so impressed with how you all can, like, show up in the moments when people are sharing something really hard. And so that’s one that for me, I’ve become really passionate about is like, we miss the mark when somebody shares something painful, when they and we don’t, we don’t know, like, do we fix it? Do we just, like, get them to stop sharing it? So I would love to hear from you all, like, what are those moments that you go, man, this is, this is where we miss the mark more often than not. So we can, and what can we do in those moments?
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Well, as you were describing that, my first thought was that could have been about three things that I’ve experienced in a session lately, but what’s coming to mind for me is what, what came up for me in that moment was it would certainly miss the mark if I pretend that there was a cute answer for this problem, right? Like that would, I’m not gonna give some answer, like a movie or whatever.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Dr. Teresa Peterson
That that would miss the mark, you know.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(slight tone of sarcasm) Just think positively, Teresa.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Oh yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Good vibes only. (laughs)
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah, no. I mean I, I said none of, none of that, you know, but nor did I say something like, well, the finest people, you know, I didn’t lean into some answer. It was like, that sounds really challenging, or like, I can see why you’re feeling the way you’re feeling based on everything you just described, right? So, like, I think that’s a common place. And I might even whisper to our HR friends that they often feel an enormous sense of pressure to present an answer that’s polished. To, you know, revive some talking points. I have no doubt they feel pressure to do that, and those are moments that miss the mark.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And not just HR people, but like anyone positions of power and –
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And honestly, I think anyone.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Oh yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, I think that it comes up often, you know, just to expand that of I had this really, I hope she, I hope she would be okay for me to share this. I’m going to share it because it was a really, it was a really bittersweet moment. So my mom and I were sitting on the patio talking this last weekend. It was just she and I. Everyone else was inside getting food. And I don’t remember how we got on the conversation, but anyway, we got talking about how when my brother Andy/Drew, no Drew (laughs), was three, he was hospitalized, and they didn’t think he was going to make it, and it was really significant. Now, keep in mind, my brother is two years older than me. He just turned 45, right? So, and as my mom was telling me the story, it was like she was just put right back there in the hospital room, with the doctors yelling at each other, and and the amount of emotion that came up for her, and all I kept thinking was I would not have been able to meet this moment if it wouldn’t have been for like the work we’re doing and trying to push to be present, and how, how often I’ve seen when someone’s emotions come up like that, either they try to silence themselves, or other people just don’t say anything. And then you just like, well, I guess I shouldn’t talk about that. And and instead, was like, man, I –going back to Gilmara, your point of like, how do we be present with those moments? And that was just a really, it was a really beautiful but bittersweet moment. And I was also like, I was aware that Sarah, a couple years ago, wouldn’t have known how to show up in that moment. And anyway, it’s just been something that’s been, like, on my heart a lot, because I see, we witness it, Teresa, Gilmara, Brandon, like we witness this in all the work we do of these moments that come up and people not knowing how to meet those moments.
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
For me, something that really bothers me is when we say somebody felt like this when this happened, or two team members had this reaction to the meeting, and the answer that the leaders provide is, “Do we have research to back that up, or do we have 100 people feeling like this?” And in my opinion, when we have one or two individuals hurting in a painful situation. It doesn’t matter if there is research out there, if there are 20 more, we have to attend to those two. And I have seen this happen so many times when feedback is brought and it’s a small number of people who are in that situation, and it’s ignored because it’s not a large number, or because there’s no research to back it up. Brandon, Sarah and Teresa, have you gone through that? Because I have, I have experienced that first and second hand multiple times, and that’s something that really doesn’t land well for me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
it’s interesting because, like, the answer that comes up for me is it depends. Because sometimes you will get outlier feedback, and for me it depends on what the feedback is and who it’s coming from. And like, Am I okay? Because I know that, like in our work, we won’t be all things to all people, right? Like we won’t, there will be people who won’t like that – well, we know. There’s people who will give feedback that I swear and they don’t like it, and then there’s going to be as many people who will say, I love that she swears, because I feel like she’s one of us. And so there’s this balance of but, but what I hear you saying more is like, but when people are sharing experiences that aren’t just an opinion, like, Oh, I like that, or I don’t like that, but they’re sharing experiences where they’re being harmed, where they’re experiencing hurt, that I feel like is different of, or they’re not feeling safe, and then it’s like, Well, are we okay with somebody not? Because it’s one thing to have somebody – this is just my opinion and Brandon, I want to hear from you. It’s like people are going to have opinions. You know, Lord knows, we all get that of like, I liked it or I didn’t like it. And there is some, an amount of, is it an outlier? Is it only a few? Is it impacting our ability to be successful? But I do hear that that’s different though, of somebody feeling silent, somebody feeling excluded, somebody feeling, somebody experiencing hurt, right? Like, then how do we be very aware that that’s like, that’s a pain that we need to address. Brandon, what comes up for you?
Brandon Springle
Yeah, yeah. For me, just creating an environment where individuals, they understand, that they can be heard, that they might not be heated, right? So you hear me and you understand, and you validate how I’m feeling, and you don’t look at me as just a number, right? Because when you say, well, it’s just one person, well, if they have a very serious or very painful experience, and we just say, they just need to get over it, it’s just one person, everybody else is fine. Well, if one’s not fine, you know, the group is really not fine. And so just making sure that there is, you know, compassionate listening and caring deeply for people. Because when you respond with like research and things of that nature to somebody’s pain, the emotional trauma and triggers that come beyond that moment, when will they ever bring up anything else again? Because they’re just brushed aside. So I think as long as people understand like we hear you and they may have a recommendation, and maybe we can’t do exactly what they might want us to do, but there should be a clear reason as to why. And here’s an alternative path that still is us kind of meeting you where you are, and you kind of meeting us where we are too. And so I need to be able to see outward and see somebody’s need as equal to that of my own, as opposed to seeing them as less or even greater at times, right? You have to have that self care, even as a leader, to to navigate that conversation with care. And if you’re not sure what to do, ask for support from somebody who could be maybe an outside party and say, am I looking at this right too. I always think it’s good to phone a friend that you know would be a good truth teller to you in a situation like that.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
I took a few notes while everyone was talking, (laughter) because this one felt real juicy to me. When I, shout out to University of Northern Iowa, one of the most provocative things they shared with us regarding research was for us to consider, how many examples do we need to see, to believe that it’s possible, that it’s so, and this can go two ways, like and I’m so, I’ll model This, and then I have a couple other points. You might say, how many examples do you need to see to believe that something amazing is possible, right? That your team could do x, y, z? And then the flip side is, and I’m thinking back to a very tough one that the three of us, Sarah, Gilmara and I, collaborated on together. How many do you need to see to raise a flag to believe that it’s possible, just possible, that there’s more to the story, right? So from there, I wrote down a couple questions. This one is snarky, and I’m going to own it, but I’m fascinated by what people will allow as research or not, depending on how the mood fits, you know? The definition of what would be acceptable research or data just blowing in the wind out there, you know? So what, I think that’s my biggest frustration, that when it suits them, it’s like, well, I found this sticky note on the bathroom floor, and so, like, I’ve got this, I’m gonna run with it. But then, if it’s important to you, it’s like the bar is so high. So I think that’s a watch out. And the other thing, I’m putting myself in the role of the leader, maybe, who’s receiving some of this information. And we brought this up with a group last week. How does this information square with what other data you currently have, or with what other experiences you can draw from, right? Is it truly a one off? Is it truly a, I like that she swears, and I don’t like that she swears, right? Is it, is it that or how does this fit with the bigger picture. And then the last thing, and this, Sarah knows, I’m becoming increasingly passionate about this with groups. But how could we know? How could we know if this was valid or not?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Because in my experience, if there isn’t much there, you can find that out real quickly, and we sure won’t find anything if we don’t look. Right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
But I’m with, I’m with the whole sentiment of this, and Brandon, you said so beautifully. But when like and when someone shares that with you, what’s your obligation to find out more? I mean, that’s what’s potentially most troubling. And I think of some of the real sticky ones that we’ve been engaged in, there’s that push pull of what counts as valid information. It was only seven people. So who cares? Well, that’s not gonna, you know. How many people are you content to be mistreated here?
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Yes.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
You know? And how could we know? Because, again, just to be clear, there have been situations where it either wasn’t as severe, it wasn’t as whatever or or the issue was different. And you can find that out quite quickly, quite efficiently. And in my experience, it’s almost always that there’s more to the story.
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
That there are more people.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah. How does that? Yeah, bring us home on that one, Gilmara?
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
That is exactly what I wanted to say, Teresa. I feel that we use that research – is there research to prove this as a defense mechanism, because we want to dismiss, but we want to dismiss in a way that it’s safe. So we say, instead of saying we don’t care about this person, we’ll say, “Is there research out there that can prove this, or are there 35 more people that are feeling like that?” And I agree, Sarah, I think sometimes there are the outliers, but the outliers are sending you a message as well, and what is, what are they asking for? And what’s your responsibility as their leader to understand that and to create space to have that need met, because ignoring them is not going to suit the problem. You know, it’s just going to aggravate and they’re going to get louder and louder and louder, because when people are outliers, they’re protesting a need that’s not met. And so every time I hear leaders say, “How many people we’re talking about? Is there research out there to back this up?” I want to pull my hair out, because I hear them say, I don’t care about these two people, and I am not going to do anything about this. And I’m going to pretend it’s because there’s no research out there.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
You know, and then the the loving contrarian in me is like, well, what research do you have that it isn’t happening? I mean, what can we validate this against? Because my guess is like, Well, no, it’s not. The bar is for you to cross, not for me, right? That’s what I hear being said in that, yeah, Sarah, go ahead.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. Well, and, and that, and that idea of at least engaging in a conversation, because we know that there, you know, when we talk about needs being met, that there are times when, whether it’s a values of ours, that we may go like, I, like, I’m not going to make this change, because that’s too important of a value for us, or for me or as an organization, but how do we have the dialog? How do we have the conversation? And, you know, and we always on the simplest form, it’s like, it’s not, Yeah, but. It’s yeah, I hear you, and let’s talk through this and why we aren’t going to go down this path and and exactly to the point that Teresa is making. Because, you know, I’m thinking of different situations where we’ve all been pulled in, and Gilmara, I’m thinking about some that you’ve been pulled in where, you know, after some exploration, the pattern was actually with the person who was struggling, not necessarily with the leader or the team. And often, (laughs) which is more often the case, like, I want to be very clear, like, it’s, yes, that’s possible. But that’s not usually the most common. Typically, there’s other like, there, there are other points of data, or whatever observations that go like, Yeah, this is happening and and again, like, to me, it goes back to as a culture, what we tolerate is also part of our culture. So what are we willing to tolerate? And be really clear about that. Like we’re okay if two or three people feel really terrible and whatever, like, Okay? Well, then I guess own that and don’t pretend otherwise. Like, don’t tell me you care about people when you don’t care about people who are struggling with things that you wouldn’t struggle with or haven’t struggled with.
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
I’m just going to say something really quickly, and then I love for Brandon to chime in. I do think that loving and respecting the people who are struggling is our biggest responsibility. It’s super easy to lead those high performers and those people who are aligned with us, but how a leader supports and embraces those who are checked out, who are the ones complaining or who are the ones who are struggling and don’t have their needs met tells you a lot about their skill set.
Brandon Springle
Yeah, this almost comes back full circle, back to task and relationship, as far as how we look at leadership and how leaders model. You can model caring curiosity, or you can model, you know, condemnation or signal that, hey, I just need, I really just need you to get the work done. Like, I really don’t want to hear about the personal things. Like, I just need you to show up and come to work, to do the work, but leave part of yourself back at the door. Like, don’t bring that part in and so I agree that caring for, loving, respecting the people under your care is the biggest responsibility and the most important responsibility of a leader. And in the work we do, we kind of help reveal the blind spot, right? Because my instinct is that humans want to do good generally. If they’re coming to work, they’re coming to a job, I don’t think I’m around a bunch of evil people, right? So when I assume positive intent, working through the conversation, modeling curiosity is the key. And so sometimes I have to navigate, like my emotions, and develop emotional intelligence and look at all the things, self awareness, self regulation, leading into, you know, the social awareness and relationship management, just to make sure that I’m not being a part of the problem, and then trying to push it off on somebody else. And just being accountable for how I show up, and also setting a clear expectation of when others are not showing up well. Because in the past, when people would behave a certain way, we’d say things like, well, you know, they’re just kind of a jerk or, you know, it’s just kind of how they are, really nice person outside of work, but sometimes they get a little testy inside of working. And we’ve accepted it for so long, but now, in the state that we’re in, and the mental health awareness and really the impact and effects on people, it’s more important than ever to be able to engage in meaningful, impactful, authentic and genuine conversations that really help elevate everyone in the environment, because they matter and they mean something.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I, I, do firmly believe you shouldn’t lead people if you do not care about them. You will never be as effective – and when we think about going kind of like full circle to the beginning of our conversation, like the world, the world has changed so much and continues to change, and there’s a lot of different levels of stress people are experiencing, and there’s a lot of uncertainty and so, so it’s so critical now for like those in positions of power and authority and even even just in all of our relationships, to be able to show up for each other. To be able to care when somebody’s struggling, to be able to, you know, and I’m thinking about this, you know, this company we were just doing some work for is a publishing company. They’ve been around over 100 years, and the current president has been with the company 50 years, and he said, it was so simple how he said it. He said, You know, I mean, the the secret to leadership is just, it’s not, it’s not just caring about people. It’s making sure they know and see and feel that you care for them, right? And then, and then he had these great examples. And then other people were sharing examples of when, you know, the company had had their back during a tough time, when they showed up when they were struggling, when they were flexible, and, and it’s so simple. Andthat is that push and pull we see right now, because there are, there are so many people who are like, I just want you to get on the bus. I mean, how many times do we hear like, we just want people to get on the bus. We just want them to suck it up. We just want them – like, really what they’re saying is, I just want to be able to control you and treat you like a machine. I mean, let’s be really clear here, like that, that is what we’re, like that’s really, it’s like, I don’t want to deal with the mess. I just want you to be compliant, you know? And it’s and it’s so amazing, because we get this amazing front row view to what’s possible when, when somebody in power is compassionate, when they’re curious, when they’re honest with themselves and honest with the other people, what is possible. Like even greater beyond, you know, what I think a lot of people realize is possible. So, okay, so to this point, I want to be thoughtful of time. I want you just to like, we’re, you know, at the time of recording this, at least in America, right? We’re in the middle of elections. We know in the rest of the world there’s a lot of unrest, right? There’s the issues in Israel and Gaza. There’s Ukraine war happening. There’s, you know, political figures getting, you know, elected left and right, that people are questioning, was it legit? I mean, we’re in this incredible time of uncertainty and strain. We’re also in this time of isolation, as we talked about, so give me like, what’s your wish, or what would be your hope for the next like, one to two like, the next, let’s just say the next two years. Like, what is it that you think will be most critical when it comes to how we show up in our relationships and our conversations?
Brandon Springle
I think just being aware of what others might be facing and thinking outside of ourselves. So people thinking outside of themselves to really detect what is going on with somebody else, and showing up and caring, even if you don’t, per se agree with their viewpoints, we’re not going to agree to everything, but what we can agree to is that we’re both human beings. We both have strengths, we both have weaknesses, and our vulnerabilities are what humanize us. And so if we’re seeking to understand where others are having challenges, and where even we might be having challenges and people understand us, that puts us in a position where we can have, you know, a valuable conversation, and work through things we may not, per se agree on, but still find some level of common ground.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Gilmara or Teresa?
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
For me, I think it would be to learn how to separate identity and ideas. Sometimes we judge who somebody is based on their ideas. And ideas change. They evolve. They, you know, should evolve as we grow as a human. And that’s not who I am, you know, and so I think sometimes if I see somebody’s voting for somebody, or if I see somebody has a specific position on a war, I might be tempted to start judging them and who they are based on that idea, instead of digging deeper. And so I think that would help us a lot to learn how to do that?
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah, I think, I think mine. I mean, if I could really do anything, it would be like, make everyone’s heart grow three sizes, you know, like Grinch style. But what? But along those lines, when we think about language we use and we think about listening for what makes sense to the other person. But I think another layer of that is what steps am I taking to really understand my own thinking? Because, this goes back to Gilmara’s amazing question not too long ago. But if I heard, if I’m hearing this and it relates to people I don’t agree with or I don’t like, frankly, how would I feel about that statement if it was said by someone I really respect? You know, that’s a layer when I’m checking my own bias. So for example, and then I’m going to bring it back to big picture, right? But when you’re in that moment, these two people said it, how would I feel if my two best people said it, would I be dismissing what was said in the same fashion? Right? Those are some different layers that we put on. And it makes me think about, you know, as I’m, as I’m, whether I’m maybe listening to a debate or some type of discussion, really trying to isolate some statements and think, I wanted to reject this just based on who said it. But is that valid? Right? So breaking down, if I overlaid someone else on it, would I agree with it more or less? And then what’s the internal reflection I need to do? Yeah, that’s what I’m thinking a lot about, teasing, teasing out your own connection with. I mean, some of the biggest issues humanity’s known, right? So, of course, we’re overwhelmed, and that’s why we can’t do it alone any one person.
Brandon Springle
That’s good. It’s making me think about like, even if I did disagree with my best, what would my response tonality be like? Would it be –
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yes!
Brandon Springle
Short, sharp, or would it be more caring like, because I want to preserve the relationship, as opposed to somebody I really don’t generally care for anyway, and they say something I don’t like, it’s just further reason for me to separate myself if I’m not careful about raising my own bias and sentiment, you know, up a bit to understand that. So thank you. That definitely made me think about that differently. Even when I disagree with the people I love, we always call back and I apologize, or I bridge the gap if somebody I don’t really have a relationship with at the same level, would I do that? Would I or would I just let it become a cycle, a continuous cycle that would escalate into something worse over time?
Dr. Teresa Peterson
What about you, Sarah?
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know I, I just, I mean similar of – well, and I’m wrestling in my head right now, you know? And part of the wrestling in my head too, like hearing like what you were saying Brandon is also like, you know, and then when am I okay that that’s somebody I’m not going to give energy to, and when is that okay to not? And I say that as somebody who’s had to work on that, because I’m a people pleaser, and I want everyone to like me and like and to be okay with that, and so that that’s my wrestle. It’s like I agree with it, and and it depends, right? I think, I think for me, there’s so much erosion that happens because of our inability to, right, emotionally regulate, or to be aware, or we pass judgment, I mean, to like all of the things, and this idea of repair has just been so sticky for me this year. And seeing how, whether it’s in families or friends, these these micro moments of, if you don’t catch this now, this erosion could be really significant. And so I think for me, it’s that like, that ability to engage and that humility to repair, you know, is, I don’t, I just, I see that as such a gap. You know, I think about Gilmara, the gift you gave us, of the do over, you know, of the like, Can I have a do over of that? And how do we and and how might we be different if we can show up with each other and say that didn’t, I didn’t, I apologize. I didn’t show up how I wanted to with there. You know, you still might not agree with the person, you still might not be okay, right? You still may go like, okay, like you have your positions, and I have my value, like we have our values and all of that. But like, how do we? Yeah, just like, how do we, how do we look for those moments of repair when they’re especially in relationships that are really important to us.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
And seeing repair as a valid option, or or or something on the table, right? That we don’t have to burn everything to the ground. That it’s not a win lose, that we might find a win win together.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, as we wind down our time together, and this, this is going to be a challenge, maybe for just me, maybe not for the three of you. (chuckles) But so when you think about the work we get to do, and you think about the whole reason we have the show and what we’re all so passionate about, even outside of work, let’s be real. Like for us, it is, like the work is not what we get paid for. The work is the worth. It’s how we like are trying to show up. In a simple phrase, like, what keeps you motivated and passionate about continuing to show up intentionally in conversations and helping other people do the same?
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
For me, is that I love people, and not only all of us four, but people we love and respect. Professionals that are super capable are struggling. Because, you know, we all have been in that situation where you’re put in an environment where it’s not productive and you are miserable. And for me, that moves me. I, I know how it feels, and I don’t want anybody to have to go through that. So if we can create better cultures, better work environments, where conversations – Oh, I’m expanding, you just wanted one sentence.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s all right. I mean. (laughs)
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
For me, that’s what it is. It’s like my love for people and knowing that some of them are struggling and that we can impact to that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you, Gilmara.
Brandon Springle
Yeah, I think for me it’s really I would like to not hold on to anything that I meant to give to the world. And, you know, by me not showing up and not doing the things that I know, you know, I have unique skills and talents to do, I feel like I’m leaving some of myself behind and not really giving of myself as I should, and therefore not meeting the purpose I’m supposed to fulfill in my time.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s awesome. Thanks, Brandon.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
I’m thinking about the days I love the most are the days we’re really intentional and outspoken about serving the whole person. That we’re bringing tools that will help you in your job, but potentially more importantly, will help you outside of of work, right, with your family, with volunteer organizations you might be involved in. I think that’s really when we’re doing our best, is when, when we allow people, even, or encourage them, to practice these skills in any place that it makes sense for them to practice. And that’s, I love when someone says, like, I’m going to try this with my son tonight. You know that that thrills me to no end.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I think for me, you know, both in the workplace and at home, there’s, there’s so much like unnecessary suffering, because we, we aren’t born knowing how to be in relationship with each other. And, and I feel really, I feel so fortunate to be surrounded by you all, our other partners that we get to work with, and there are times when I find myself going like, oh, like, life is so great when you can show up and be on honest with each other, and not honest in a blunt way, but like to be present with each other and to be seen with each other. And like I find myself just personally going, Man, I, like, life is the best it’s ever been, in large part because of the relationships and how people have shown me how to be in relationship, and doesn’t mean it’s not hard or uncomfortable at times or, right, like have those tension moments. But there’s a part of it for me, it’s like I want people to feel, I really just want people to feel seen and heard and to be able to show up for other people in that way as well, and and that that certainly keeps me moving. Well, my friends, that wraps up episode 100! Yay! This is such, actually, this is, you know, for people still on and listening. This is a big deal, because this was the first time the four of us got to talk. It’s been a lot of individual conversations. Teresa and I, Gilmara and Teresa, Gilmara and Brandon, Brandon and Teresa.
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
(laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
So like, this was just such a gift and a treat for us to be in conversation. And let me just say, like, we have some amazing things planned for the next 100 episodes, and I’m just so grateful for the three of you. And I’m like, I’m so excited about what we’re building and like, what’s to come. I mean, folks listening like it’s, we’re real excited. Like it’s, –
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Sarah, can I say something in another 100th episode? I think it’s very easy to do a podcast. It’s not easy, but everybody could do a podcast. The hard thing, I think, that you do so well, is to walk the talk and really apply the things we are learning from others on the podcast and that we can share with others to our own dynamics in our own culture as we collaborate. And so I am very proud to say that what we talk about is what we experience, and I don’t think that’s always the case. And so thank you. Thank you for walking the talk with us.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right back at you. I mean, we It’s a – it’s not just that the work is better. It’s like my life is better because of all of you and the work we get to do and and, you know, I mean, to go to Brandon’s point of, like, how do we show up and make the biggest impact we can on this world while we’re here is really sacred. That’s always the word I come back to, like, it’s always sacred to witness somebody. It’s always sacred to walk alongside somebody. And I’m just deeply grateful that, yeah, I’m, I get to be surrounded by such amazing people, and we walk alongside each other. So thank you. Message received, Gilmara, I appreciate it.
Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell
Good.
Sarah Noll Wilson
All All right, my friends, that’s it! I don’t know how else to end the show. Happy 100! (laughter)100! (laughter)
Our guests this week have been three amazing humans that I get to call colleagues and friends, Dr Teresa Peterson, Gilmara Vila Nove-Mitchell, Brandon Springle, and we would love to hear what resonated for you, or what would you add to the conversation? What are you observing in your world that we should be thinking about and talking about? We always love to hear from you. You can send me an email at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com where I do read and respond personally to every email that is sent. So we’d love to hear from you. And if you want to support the show and continue to support us through the next 100 episodes, there’s two ways you can do that. The first is, if you haven’t already, please, please, be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform or multiple platforms. This helps us to be able to increase our exposure so we can continue to have great conversations like the one we did today. And if you want to support the show financially, you can do so by becoming a patron. You can go to patreon dot com slash conversations on conversations where 100% of your financial support goes to support the team that makes this show possible. And just another shout out to the incredible team. I know I talked about them up front, but that makes this show possible. To Nick Wilson, our producer, Drew Noll, our sound editor, Becky Reinert, our transcriptionist, Jessica Burdg, our marketing consultant, and the rest of the SNoWCo crew. Another big thank you to my colleagues for showing up, for pushing me, for pushing us, and having this great conversation. That my friends wraps up Episode 100 and I cannot wait to see what the next 100 episode brings! So remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So until the next time we get together, please be sure to rest, rehydrate, and we’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.
