Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guests Amy Myers and Luke Mohlenhoff for a candid conversation on how ADHD and anxiety impact their daily lives, relationships, and work, offering insights on navigating neurodivergence with compassion and support.
ABOUT
Amy Myers brings over two decades of program management expertise to her role as our Chief of Staff. Her passion for connecting with clients while working together to “cross the Ts and dot the Is” makes her partnership personally rewarding on many levels (she loves a good Excel tracking sheet!). Amy’s background includes work in public education, government, and non-profit arts organizations. She earned a Bachelor of Arts degree in Sociology from Grinnell College, inspiring her lifelong interest in others’ stories and experiences. Fun Fact: In her free time, Amy lives vicariously through PBS baking shows and America’s Test Kitchen. She enjoys trying new dishes, but believes recipes are “only a suggestion.” Her husband and cat beg to differ. #oliveoilbrowniefail
Luke Mohlenhoff is a Senior Vice President at West Bank and manages the Residential Construction and Land Development team. Luke has been with West Bank since 2011 and has over two decades of experience in the banking industry. He has specialized in residential construction and land development banking since 2007. Luke actively contributes to professional organizations, as an 11 year board member of the Home Builders Association of Greater Des Moines, a 10 year board member of the Westbancorporation Foundation and more recently, as a two year board member of CREW Iowa (Commercial Real Estate Women). His motivation to pursue a career in construction and development banking comes from the contributions that this specialization has in transforming the Des Moines metropolitan area. He has a particular passion for affordable housing initiatives and making housing more affordable for all, regardless of income level. A graduate of Albion College with a bachelor’s degree in Political Science and English, he also earned an Elementary Teaching Certificate from Eastern Michigan University. He was born in Connecticut and has lived in multiple states, but considers Jackson, Michigan his home town. He has lived in Des Moines for the past 22 years with his wife, Amy Myers, and their cats, Teddy Bear Roosevelt and Chloe “Chloe-Bear” Warwick. Luke is an avid golfer and his current golf handicap is mid-range irons.
- Amy Email: amy@sarahnollwilson.com
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sarah, hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations, where each week we explore a topic to help us all have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I am your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, and joining me today are two dear friends, one you’ve heard me talk about, one, you haven’t, but you’re going to meet him today. But joining me today on the show is my Chief of Staff, my good friend, my gatekeeper of all things Sarah, Amy Myers and her husband, Luke Mohlenhoff, and let me tell you a little bit about them and what we’re going to be exploring today. We’re going to be talking about the joys of having ADHD, as well as supporting loved ones or colleagues with ADHD as well. So let me tell you a little bit about Luke, and then I’ll tell you about Amy. Luke Mohlenhoff is a senior vice president at West Bank and manages the residential construction and land development team. He has been with West Bank Since 2011 and has over two decades of experience in the banking industry. He specializes in residential construction and land development. He actively contributes to professional organizations as an 11 year board member of the Home Builders Association of Greater Des Moines, Iowa, a 10 year board member of the West Bank Corporation Foundation, and more recently, as a two year board member of CREW Iowa. And for those who are unfamiliar, CREW stands for Commercial Real Estate Women, and that’s actually how Luke and I met. So we’ll talk about our little cute meet story when we get to that. His motivations to pursue a career in construction and development banking comes from contributions that that the specialization has in transforming the Des Moines metropolitan area. He has a particular passion for affordable housing initiatives and making housing more affordable for all regardless of income level. He has lived in Des Moines for the past 22 years with his wife, Amy Myers and their cats, Teddy Bear Roosevelt, I didn’t realize that’s Ted’s full name. I only know him as Ted. (laughter) Okay.
Amy Myers
Legal name.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Teddy Bear Roosevelt, I love it. And Chloe. Chloe Bear Warwick (laughter) also didn’t know her last name, and I love it so much. Luke is an avid golfer, and his current golf handicap is mid range irons. (laughs) I like it. All right. So my colleague Amy Myers, she brings over two decades of program management expertise to her, her role as our Chief of Staff, her passion for connecting with clients while working together to cross the t’s and dot the i’s makes her partnership personally rewarding on many levels. She loves a good Excel tracking spreadsheet, and we are grateful for that. (laughter) Amy’s background includes work in public education, government, nonprofit arts organization. She earned a Bachelor of Arts degree in sociology from Grinnell College, inspiring her lifelong interest in other people’s stories and experiences. And here’s a super fun fact about Amy. In her free time, she lives vicariously through PBS baking shows and America’s Test Kitchen. She enjoys trying new dishes, but believes recipes are only a suggestion, although her husband and cat may beg to differ. Hashtag. I love that you put a hashtag in your we’re gonna keep all of this now. We’re not re-recording it. Hashtag oliveoilbrowniefail. (laughter) So let’s start there. You know, in the spirit of what else should we know about you?
Amy Myers
Yeah. Oh gosh.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Amy or Luke, either of you can take a stab at this. What’s the hashtag oliveoilbrowniefail?
Amy Myers
I can give a quick explanation of that, and I want to couch it in the fact that my sister still tells this story to this day, even though it’s like, literally over 20 years ago that this happened. But this was one of my first jobs out of college. And you know, you’re kind of getting to know everybody, and they decide to do an office potluck. And I was like, Sure, I’ll bring brownies, no problem. Easy peasy. You get a box mix, you’re good to go. And mind you, I, growing up I had years in 4H so I know how to sew, I know how to bake. I don’t enjoy either one of them. So it was sort of like definitely pushing against the comfort zone, but, um, so I got a Betty Crocker mix, mixed it, went to mix it up, and realized, you know, it calls for, I mean, it’s super simple, calls for an egg and some vegetable oil. Well, I didn’t have any vegetable oil. I’m like, olive oil. This is fine. Olive oil is a neutral, it’s good for you, it’s healthy, it’s dark chocolate, and it’ll be great. So they came out of the oven smelling kind of like olive oil. And I was like, well, they’ll be fine. As soon as they cool, it’ll be great. And then I was like, I really don’t know if this is a good idea. And they finally cooled, and I went to cut them and I tasted them. I’m like, I am gonna go pick up some pre made cookies from the local grocery store, because this is not how I want to introduce myself to my colleagues. (laughter) So, and that, as I’m saying, as I’m telling that story –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Or it’s exactly the way you get introduced!
Amy Myers
Actually, yes, I should have, oh, I should have, because then I would have been off the hook for any sort of baked good after that. But it’s ironic. I just made this connection. So that’s the first story about baking fails. And then I have another story where I tried to make, for whatever reason, upside down, pineapple upside down cake from scratch, and I had to call my friend. I was like, Hey, can you use evaporated milk instead of sweetened condensed milk? She’s like, Absolutely not. And so I call my mom, and I’m like, What do I do? She’s like, well, what box mix are you making?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Very different texture.
Amy Myers
Yes, exactly. A very different sweetness, all of it. And so I called my mom my go to and I was like, Okay, so here’s the situation. I don’t know why this isn’t turning out. And she’s like, well, what box mix did you use? And I was like, box mix? I made this from scratch. And my mom goes, well, that’s your first problem. Like, you don’t make anything from scratch. (laughter) So I have had two solid swings and misses, and I’m just good with, you know, like Molly’s Cupcakes from here on out. So anyway, so those are the –
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love when you learn something new about people. Luke, do you want to weigh in on the olive oil brownie fiasco or Amy’s cooking in any way before we hop into this conversation? (laughs)
Luke Mohlenhoff
As a kid, my brother and sister and I, we made my parents a homemade anniversary cake, and we did it from scratch, and then we tried to make frosting from scratch, and it said confectioner sugar, and we figured granulated sugar, confectioner suger. It’s both sugar.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Must be the same thing.
Amy Myers
Yeah.
Luke Mohlenhoff
Does not make very good frosting. It does cave in the top of all homemade cake especially if you pour it on hot and then instantly crystallizes. And it’s hard to run through a piping bag and write a happy anniversary. It tastes disgusting and looks even worse.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Ah man.
Amy Myers
So we were destined, Luke.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that this is what we are talking about. You were.
Amy Myers
Well, especially because Sarah, you are like a baking aficionado now. So –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, but let me share my story, because I have a good fail, and it’ll be quick, and then we’ll hop into it. I made a cheesecake for my sister Becky’s birthday a number of years ago, and I forgot to add the sugar, and when my dad took a bite, he went to go get the table sugar and was pouring it on. I’m like, Dad, it’s a cheesecake. My God, you don’t need to. He was like, it just, you know, and He’s so polite and nice. He’s like, it just, just needs a little extra sugar. And then I tried it, and it was just a cream cheesecake, just vanilla, eggs, cream cheese.
Amy Myers
That happens.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So the reason that I brought these two on the show actually started with some conversations Amy and I had, because, as some of you who have been listening to our show for a while, I’m very open about challenges I have, whether it’s from a neurodivergent perspective, mental health perspective, and I’ve shared that I’m a late diagnosed, late adult diagnosed, ADHD. And one of the things that has been a, just an incredible gift to me, is having someone like Amy support me, but then we’ve had some clients who have some neurodivergent folks, and we were joking like she’s got a lot of experience supporting, you know, supporting people. And then we thought, wouldn’t it be interesting to have Luke come on, talk about his experience, and just, just talk about, what does it look like to support somebody with a, who has neurodivergence? So, Luke, I want to start with you, and I want to start with, talk to me about your ADHD journey, because it’s part of, it’s part of our cute meet story, you know, like so take us, take us back to that CREW session.
Luke Mohlenhoff
Yeah, and I can go back really far. This is something I’ve wondered about, probably since I first became aware as a kid of ADHD as an idea. And I don’t remember exactly when that was, it was probably sometime in middle school. But when I, when I heard the expression, and especially how it typically is seen in boys, it’s usually the kid who just can’t stay in his desk, and he’s just constantly running around and fidgeting and doing all those things. And that was never me, I think in part because until high school, I was always in the same school building where my dad was a teacher.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh!
Luke Mohlenhoff
Yeah, so acting out was definitely not something that would go over, especially in a Lutheran School, where they still had a paddle down in the principal’s office.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, corporal punishment.
Luke Mohlenhoff
So I knew, I knew how to stay in my desk, but I was definitely a kid who would take my pen apart and put it back together, and take it apart and put it back together, and spiral bound notebooks, take the spiral spring out and then twist it back in. And so a lot of fidgeting like that. In high school, in high school, I was the kid that you know more than one time was threatened with someone wanting to beat me up because I was staring at them in the lunchroom and I wasn’t staring at anyone. I was just spaced out. The number of times I would realize in college I could sit down for an hour and a half or two hour lecture class, and all of a sudden everyone was getting up and leaving, and I looked down at my notebook, and I would have one sentence of notes from when the lecture first started, and the rest of the notebook was completely blank, and maybe there was a bird out of the window. And I never really thought I about it, because I always got really good grades. I think I just figured, well, this class was really boring. If the class was more engaging, I would have probably paid attention more, but thankfully, I had good friends who would let me photocopy their notes for those classes. But always having things like that happen, and I think for me, because I was always a high achiever –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Luke Mohlenhoff
Talking to anybody about the the problem, and saying, Hey, I think, I think something’s wrong here, I really struggle to focus all the time was; you don’t get a whole lot of sympathy when you’re getting good grades, or you’re doing well at a job and and it looks like you’re – You know. What are you complaining about? You’re successful especially academic things and employment skills. What’s, what’s the big deal, and never realizing that all the time that I was spending that other people didn’t, I always assume that, well, that’s why I get good grades, and they don’t. That’s why I get promoted, and other people don’t it. It’s because I’m putting in this this time, and they just aren’t willing to do it, and until I was diagnosed with ADD and put on medication, realizing that I was putting in countless hours and needless amounts of time and stress and anxiety that other people didn’t do because it wasn’t necessary at all. And it was a journey.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, what, what was, what was that moment like for you when you did get diagnosed? I mean, it’s interesting, because it makes sense. You know, with your dad, the presence of your dad, that creates an incredible amount of external pressure, and I appreciate that point you, you’re talking about, because that can be really common when you are a high achieving person, it can be easy to not realize that you have challenges, you know. And I feel like, I feel like so many people I talked to, they were really good, like, A minus students who always felt like they could be the like, you know, B plus students like, I’m a good student. I always felt like I could be a really great student. And so what, what was that like for you, Luke, when you got that diagnoses? And then Amy, then after he shares, I want to hear from you. What was that experience like, as his partner, who has known him for years and years?
Luke Mohlenhoff
The diagnosis wasn’t very surprising. The real surprise was what the medication did for me. I had no idea what to expect. And this goes to, really, our meeting at a CREW event. And I when, when I’ve told you that you’ve, you’ve saved my life, I truly mean that, and I don’t know if I mean my career. If I mean that, I’m probably going to live a lot longer, because the, having the anxiety no longer such an overbearing presence in my life has has been a night and day experience. The, the mental health struggle, and not realizing the extent of how bad things were. I truly can’t say how, how much that changed, and specifically what it was, was hearing you speak about your own neurodivergent challenges in front of a group of people. I’m thinking back, this was probably six or seven years ago, you were not –
Sarah Noll Wilson
I would have been like just starting to get out there. It’s like 2017. I think it was 2017 or early, early 2018 when I first went on my own.
Luke Mohlenhoff
It was a, I bet that this lunch, there were probably at least 50 people there. And I remember thinking, here’s this, here’s this business owner, this entrepreneur who’s who’s left corporate America and gone out on her own. And she’s starting off this presentation in front of a group of people who can be very influential and either open or close doors for her. And she’s starting off talking about struggles with ADHD and anxiety and that, that just beautiful honesty of that. I just remember leaving that thinking I’ve wondered about this for 35 years of life, approximately. maybe longer. And I’ve never had the courage to talk to my doctor about it and give voice to just, you know, to get tested and have somebody say, No, you you’re right to be a high level performer. That’s just very stressful. And if you’re not built for that, maybe you should consider something less stressful. Or, yes, absolutely you do have ADHD, or in my case, ADD. I don’t test very highly at all in the hyperactivity component, but in the the nine spectrums, I’m at a very high level, at eight of the nine, and that the hyperactivity is the only one that I’m I’m not.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Luke Mohlenhoff
And then getting treatment for that, and seeing what, what that would mean for my life and and that was a springboard to decide to take action on my own and not wait for somebody else to save me or talk me out of it. Because I think there were times that I may have thrown it out there to people, and it was usually played down and poo pooed as what are you, what are you talking about? You’re, how could you possibly do the things that you’ve done and have this. And even after the diagnosis, there were people like, Yeah, are you sure you really need to be on medication? Or, you know, we don’t necessarily see this in you. This is where Amy can usually jump in and go, Well, you don’t live with him. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that, and to that point, even still, it’s a common, uh, challenge that gets dismissed and minimized. It is misunderstood, or people like, I’m just so ADHD, and it’s like, are you? Like, maybe you are, I don’t know, but are you or, you know, because, to your point, and I think that’s something we’ve talked about on previous podcast, is the relationship between ADHD and anxiety is very strong, and many people will get diagnosed with anxiety disorders not realizing that what’s actually driving it is the ADHD. So Amy, I want to make sure we hear from you what? Yeah, like, what was that, what was that experience like for you when, you know, Luke was finally diagnosed, because I’m thinking about my own experience of, like, people like, yeah, that doesn’t surprise me. I’m like, Oh, I didn’t know. (laughter)
Amy Myers
Yeah. Could you have clued me in? Yeah. Um, I think it, it’s, it’s always interesting to look at it in retrospect, because, like, the clues were there, but they were never all aligned, like the dots were never connected until Luke actually got the diagnosis. And I’m sure that’s a common experience. It’s like, oh yeah. In isolation, this particular thing that happens a lot was just that or this one. But when you put them all together and you see a pattern, you’re like, Oh wow, yeah, that’s what we’re dealing with. That’s what we’re man, or what he’s managing. And truthfully, I do think of it a lot similar to how I think of the pandemic, of pre pandemic, and after March 2020, like I think of it pre diagnosis, and now with the diagnosis, because it, just everything made a lot more sense. Like there were things that just not only made more sense, but also, I think, coming from a standpoint of wanting to be a supportive partner, but also being frustrated sometimes, like you can, both of those things can be true at the same time. Realizing that a lot of these frustrations are just as frustrating for him, if not more. So it wasn’t something that was happening in addition to our relationship, it was part of what he’s managing, the neuro divergence, that is impacting everything. So it just, I feel like it just made me a little, maybe take a step back and be a little more empathetic to the fact that this is not an intentional thing. This is a biological thing that Luke is managing, I’m supporting, and our relationship is managing as well. So, it really was like a light bulb.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Amy Myers
Just like, and also, it was such a gift to have him actually take, like, take that leap to get the diagnosis and to get tested, because even along the way, I know that there have been steps of, well, talk to so and so, then you have to talk to so and so, then you have to go to the next level. Like, it’s not been just a one and done, easy diagnosis.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. No.
Amy Myers
So, yeah, to see somebody committed to doing that, because they know that they’re, they just trust that there’s something going on, and to have some answers has been a huge gift. I mean, I really do feel like it’s been a one of those mile markers in our relationship, like the before and the since. And actually, I don’t know that Luke and I have talked about it in that way.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, I love it. I really appreciate how you gave language Amy to the idea of like it can be real frustrating to live with and work with neurodivergent people, because we don’t operate, our brain doesn’t work in the same way. And I and I know that. I know that from loved ones in my life, who, have you know, who are married to neurodivergent and it can feel like, are you doing this on purpose? And I really appreciate that you named that. As frustrated as you are, that’s frustrating for us, right? When you when you realize, like there’s things I want to do, and why can’t I just do them? Or, you know, or you set out to accomplish some task, and then you get distracted by something else. And, and, and Luke, I’m curious to hear from you. I know, for me on my journey, and, you know, and Nick’s listening into this, and he will attest to this without doubt. But when I was first realizing and understanding this as being part of one of the biggest challenges I had was overcoming shame around it because, and it wasn’t shame about the ADHD like diagnosis. It was the shame about the ways I felt like I was falling short. You know, I couldn’t keep track of notes, I couldn’t keep track of client conversations, I couldn’t remember people’s faces. I couldn’t remember their names and and so I had to really work on accepting that my brain was different and realizing I needed compensating measures, right, to set me up for success. And I was just curious, like, how does that resonate for your experience, or how is it different?
Luke Mohlenhoff
I have not ever defined it in a, in a way that I guess I would use shame, and I think the reason that I don’t is because for me it was panic or terror. On the low end, it was always an underlying, brooding level of anxiety, just wondering when the next mistake was going to happen, the next forgetful moment.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Ah, man.
Luke Mohlenhoff
And, and so I, it really wasn’t shame it, and in the moments of of sheer terror and panic, and that’s where I can say that if people who joke about it, and I would say, if you really think you are, get tested. But if, if not, I always have a couple stories that I tell people that I say, here’s here’s two examples. And if these resonate with you, absolutely get tested. And if these don’t resonate any way, you probably just occasionally forget things, everybody does. And the first thing is, I started trying to organize myself. In the morning at work, I would write down on a post it note the three things that I wanted to accomplish today in order.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Luke Mohlenhoff
And I would do that before at the office, before I’d go grab a cup of coffee from the coffee maker. And I remember one time in particular, I came back and the note was gone. And what I always ask people I’ve spoken about this in public once before, I said, you know, and I use the word normal, because for me, that’s – I go, what would a normal person do? And almost everybody goes, well, just rewrite the note. You just did it two minutes ago. And I go, Yeah, and I knew what was on the note. But for someone with ADD and the corresponding anxiety, the fact that you have managed to lose a post it note in two minutes and have no idea where it is, strikes to the core of, if I can screw up something this basic, I surely can’t work on a ten million loan presentation today. I just can’t do it. I have to find the post it note first, and spending an hour more and eventually finding the post it notes stuck to the back of, I don’t, I don’t remember if it was on the back piece of paper. If it fell off and it was on my shoe, it doesn’t really matter where I found it, but that finding of the note became far more important than recreating the note and just getting out with my day. I, it just struck to the core of my, my value as a person, my competence. I could not focus to work until I found that post it note. And the second one was I was having what I now know was a pretty bad panic attack. It started early in the day at work. My, my arm was getting tingly, my neck was getting, you know what, what most people would say, oh, or you were having a heart attack.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, that’s a heart attack. Yeah.
Luke Mohlenhoff
Yeah. And instead of stopping everything, calling 911, telling my boss and getting some medical attention. I spent the rest of the day getting everything organized at my desk, and then calling Amy as I drove myself to the ER telling her I wasn’t sure what time I might be home, because my thought process was, you know, if I am dying of a heart attack today, or if I am going to be out of the office for several weeks or a month or more as I recover from open heart surgery, I surely want people to think that I was very good at my job and well organized, and that someone could just step in and and pick up where I had left off, because I wouldn’t want people to think I was a disorganized, incompetent person. And I, you know, it’s, I laugh about it now, but I sit back and think, you know what, if I was really having a heart attack?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Well, it’s also that, it’s also, I mean, like, what you speak to. And I, so first, Luke, I really appreciate you sharing that, and sharing so honestly, because that, when you, when you’re working and existing in a neurotypical world, it’s, you know, because that’s the thing for me, is like, I it’s not a disability, it’s just a difficulty because of the system we work in, right? Like, and, you know, and, and, you know, I mean, as you’re talking, I’m like, I would hate for somebody to walk into my office right now and see all my piles of paper and unopened mail and be like, Why? Why does she open her mail? I’ll be like, I don’t know. I just that’s what I have Amy.
Luke Mohlenhoff
(laughs) Yep.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But, but, but that, that constantly wanting to present because we’re aware of how much like just, we’re just aware of dropping balls. We’re aware of of no amount of focus can can help us. So one of the things that, you know, people don’t know, for people who’ve been following my journey a while, and the team’s journey, as you hear Luke talk about the story of how we crossed paths. That’s actually how, eventually I cross paths with Amy. And so I have Luke to thank for bringing Amy to our world and and so Amy, you know, one of the things that I want to make sure we spend some time on today is we, and I want to look at this through through a couple different lenses. But what, as somebody who lives and supports a partner during non work hours, and as somebody who lives and supports a colleague during work hours, what are some of the things that you have found to be like, that was valuable for you to understand, so that you could show up differently and also, like, I want to talk about strategies. Like, what, what we’ve learned in our working together.
Amy Myers
Yeah. So I think the most important realization I have had is that, and I think, I think this is maybe a universal realization, that it’s not me, it’s not personal, it’s not anything to do with our relationship, or our our partnership as colleagues. That this is not something that I can do anything to change. What it is is a clue to me of how somebody is walking through life. And so it’s a little bit of a sign of, okay, so this is one piece that you now know about them. How are you going to use that to inform how you show up for them? So like with Luke, for example, I say it was like a light bulb moment, because it was like, oh, yeah, okay. So the things that I, the assumptions I made, or the way that I communicated, or the way that we tried to partner on things, those were not set up for success from the beginning because they, first of all, assumptions aren’t appropriate. But secondly, any strategies were going in based on inaccurate information. So I think having that realization that it’s not about me, but also just the reminder that, I mean, I know you hear the saying, you never know what someone else is going through. Like, you know, the person who blew by you on the highway they might be on their way to, you know, an emergency or something. Absolutely every day I do not know, and I will not know. There’s no way that I can know what either of you are living day to day, even when you are open and share, it’s still not my lived experience. And so just that reminder to take a step back and because, as a firstborn and as a barely like, I like my chart, I like my to do list, let’s check it off. I can, I can jump to like, let’s fix this. Let’s troubleshoot this. And that’s not appropriate. It’s absolutely not appropriate to try to manage somebody. That’s not why I’m here. I’m here to be a partner, to walk with you in whatever way that is, and if that also means taking a step back from that partnership, because you need to do X, Y or Z in your own way, on your own. That’s the support that I give them. So I just really feel like it’s been a huge, in an interesting way, it’s expanded my view, not only of each of you as individuals, but also, just like the world in general, like, holy crap, I make a lot of assumptions about what I think I know about, even my own interactions with people, and those aren’t accurate. Those are just my assumptions. So I don’t know if I answered your question.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s – yeah, no, you did beautifully, and it made me realize, as somebody who’s on the receiving end of that support, that is what makes you a really effective partner in this. And, you know, I I assume Luke experiences, or I hope you experience it at the same way, like, I hope I don’t get all of the good stuff from Amy and then she’s like, ah, whatever. You gotta do, your own thing, Luke. But it, you know, it. I really appreciate how you articulated that you know I want to fix it. So let’s just do this instead of recognizing there are times when I might need to do it differently. There are times when what worked once isn’t going to work another time because of where we are, and that’s one of the things I would just say anyone who’s listening, if you are struggling with a form of neurodivergence like ADHD, Autism, Tourette’s, if you’re supporting somebody, whether it’s a family member, loved one, or a team member, I think that’s one of the biggest lessons I’ve had to learn for myself is it’s going to be an ongoing experimentation and like, and that’s one of the things Amy I appreciate about how we’ve navigated is there are tasks where I do defer to how you manage it, so you can manage it more effectively than me trying to, right? Like our task list, like, but, but how we adjust it is, every week we go through it, and you walk me through it, and so I can see it, and then, right? So it can be managed in your way, but it also can be accommodated for, for how I will learn. Luke, I’m curious to hear from you. One of the, one of the lessons for me now, I haven’t been able to find medicine that has been helpful. Is my therapist, and Amy’s heard me talk about this lot, is she always would say, you have to figure out Sarah, the Sarah manual, that what works for you is going to be very different than works works for other people. So things like body doubling, like spending time working with Amy, where she’s working on something else and I’m working it can be really effective. Having, you know, like external pressure. What are some of the things you have found over the last couple of years that have worked for you, that are a part of your Luke manual, of being able to, you know, be successful with ADHD.
Luke Mohlenhoff
I think a couple things is knowing what to ask other people sometimes what, what not to do. And Amy knows like, if, if I leave the burner on on the stove and leave the kitchen, she should definitely turn it off. (laughs) If, if she opens the refrigerator and –
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m laughing, because I may have, –
Luke Mohlenhoff
Yeah, if my cell phone or wallet is –
Sarah Noll Wilson
I just feel very seen.
Luke Mohlenhoff
Is in the refrigerator, you know, grab it and hand it to me. Um, but if, if my wallet is on the kitchen counter and not on my dresser in the bedroom. Don’t move it from the kitchen counter to the bedroom without asking me. Don’t. Don’t try to help me, because as someone who struggles to remember things when I’m pretty sure I left my wallet on the kitchen counter and it’s not there, I will freak – did I? Did I drop it outside? Did I leave it at work? Did I? Did I put it in the refrigerator? Like and, and any, any of that second guessing just spirals, and that, that panic and feeling of incompetence is is absolutely huge.
Amy Myers
I was just going to jump, tag on to that because I know we’ve had that conversation a couple different times, and I wanted to kind of address it or comment on it from the context of what you just shared, Sarah, about supporting people, either in your personal life, as colleagues, team members. Luke telling me that, like, Please don’t move that, even if you know that I’m going to probably want it somewhere else, because that is panic inducing to me, or that makes me wonder, okay, what? What did? What happened here? That is me trying to re – I, first of all, I appreciate that, because I would not have known that had you not shared that. And it’s also another reminder to me that the way I do things which used to be okay, well, let’s fix this. Let’s take care of this. Is not appropriate. It’s not appropriate for me to try to put things back where he’s going to need them. That’s his right to take that and figure that out eventually. So I just wanted to tag on that. What I thought might be helpful in the moment was actually much more harmful than just letting alone.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, and what I love about having this conversation with the two of you, and this is, you know, part of it’s fun when we can have these kind of dynamics is, you know, it’s, it’s Luke’s courage and willingness to share that, you know, and then it’s your courage and willingness to hear that. Because it could be so easy for people to be like, Oh, god, okay, you know, or whatever, get defensive or deflect, or whatever, and and maybe it took a little bit to get to that place, but that’s part of this navigating being I mean, this is true of any relationship, right? How do we, how do we navigate with each other, that there has to be this courage to say, here’s what I actually need. And what you don’t realize is that when I think I’ve put it somewhere and it’s moved, that actually causes me an incredible amount of stress. And then for you to receive that and go, Oh, I hadn’t thought about that. Okay? Like, I’m gonna, I’m gonna work to honor that. So I love, I love that modeling that you two are bringing to all of us, of like, what does it look like in practice? Luke, what else? What’s one more thing on your manual?
Luke Mohlenhoff
I never picked up on this when I was younger, and this was one of the things when you, when you try to self diagnose, you fail quite a bit, and the internet is, the internet didn’t come out until I was almost done with college, so you couldn’t do a lot of research on your own. But one of the superpowers of ADHD, and I heard about this recently, I go, oh yeah, this is 100% true, is you also have the ability to hyper focus at times.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Luke Mohlenhoff
If you are, if you are really into a deadline of a major term paper. I don’t know if you experienced this at all when you wrote your book, but Amy’s seen me do this before, where I will start a task and almost nothing is capable of breaking my attention away from that task. And when you’re in those moments and can really take advantage of them, you know, if, if that means you eat lunch at a weird time, or maybe you stay up really late doing something and, you know, honor those times when you have them, because most people, even people without ADHD, can’t go 10 straight hours with barely, you know, taking a bathroom break and getting a sip of water and skipping eating to just have 10 straight hours of just high speed, high functioning getting things accomplished. I mean, it take advantage of it when it happens, because it is, it is magic, it really is.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Well, and I think, and I assume, maybe that’s something that you’ve learned to, with both of us, you know, because there might be times when you’re like, you’re answering emails really late. (laughter) You’re supposed to by off. You’re supposed to be I was like. Yeah, but I couldn’t focus at all today. But now I’m in it, right? Let me, let me loose, you know? And, and there is that, that that recognition of when you you get into that flow state, it’s so great, and it’s so exhausting when you’re not able to be in it when you want to other times. (laughs)
Amy Myers
Yeah, yeah, I think, and I think that’s where, again, just another great reminder that it’s not my job to drive this. It’s my job to support you as you’re doing what you do in the best way, because you know what’s best for you. And like, I know you and I have had that, you and I, Sarah, have had the conversation about, if you’re checking your emails while on vacation, and I know Luke and I have had a similar conversation, like, Okay, so just kind of check in once in a while, like when they see the first one, like, how’s it going? Are you wanting to do email on vacation? Or are you wanting me to, like, try to help you not to email? I mean, so essentially, rather than assuming what that answer is, asking the question. Because in my mind, I’m like, Heck, no, I’m tapped out. So this person obviously doesn’t want to do this. No, that’s incorrect to assume anything. So like asking, because even Luke and I have had that same conversation of, okay, so are you going to check email? Like, what do you need to do to make sure that you are in the best spot? And so I think, Sarah, whether it’s with you or Luke, whether it’s with you, I hope that what I’m trying to do is show up in a way that supports whatever you want to do, not me imposing how I think this should be done because that’s absolutely inappropriate.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and there are times, and there are times when, well, I mean, or maybe not as effective. I don’t know that it’s inappropriate, but may not be as effective, right? Like, but there are also times, from the standpoint of, you know that I’m asking you, like, Sarah, you’re. Yeah, like, Nick does this too. Like, if I’m, if I’m with family, or we’re on vacation or something, and I I’m in my phone, and he could tell, you can tell I’m on email, he’ll be like, is everything okay? It’s his cue to be like, is everything okay? Or did you just get into an autopilot of responding to your emails? You know?
Amy Myers
Tthat’s a great point.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and, you know, and, and that’s part of it too. And that’s something I know you and I’ve navigated and negotiated, is there are times when I do need you to draw that line for me, because it’s too hard for me to draw it myself. You know, whether it’s like, okay, well, I’m in a car for seven hours. I got nothing else to do, lets at least do something. But then it’ll be like, you’ll you’ll lovingly be like, are you still in the car? (laughter) Do you need to be answering this, this email? And, you know, and one thing that I want to say is, this is a team sport, existing in this life together, right? How do we show up for each other? And, you know, I definitely want to, I want to give some some props to Amy. Like, I’ve had clients who’ve worked with me pre Amy, and they’ve noticed such a change in my ability to be able to do the work that I need to do, because she’s helping me, you know, with the work that I struggle with. And so, like, Luke, what would you want? What would you want somebody in your life, whether it’s a coworker, a spouse, family member, friend, what would you want them to know about what it’s like for you navigating ADHD, or what do you feel like maybe they don’t always know?
Luke Mohlenhoff
I think the biggest thing is that I’m, I’m much more present than I was before. Even when, when Amy wanted to respond to me talking about, you know, leaving, leaving my wallet in the refrigerator. The old me would have completely wanted to just not even acknowledge that she had spoken, because I had other thoughts in my head that I wanted to share.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Luke Mohlenhoff
And if I, if I didn’t get those out, they may, I may completely forget about them. Or Sarah, you may have taken the conversation a different direction, but it would have been very important for me to go back to that thought and wedge it in there, even if we were beyond it, because just just being able to consciously remember that and present it, just grasping that was was so important for reasons that I don’t know if I could even possibly articulate, but I, I did not converse well with people. I was not good at moving on in conversations if I didn’t get to share something that I needed to get to. I feel like I’m a very different person, and a lot of people might not even notice that difference, because they don’t spend as much time with me as Amy does. You know, there’s, there’s a lot of things that have changed for me that I think make me a better coworker, a better, better with my clients, better my relationship with with Amy and with my friends. And none of them might even realize that. A lot of it is, is inwardly knowing the changes, and you know, and then just trying to move past the the regret of why didn’t I speak up and advocate for myself sooner. I think of how difficult, especially college was, until I managed to get a roommate who in his own goofball way, and he used it to try to help, but I think would basically just, you’re not going to study all night. Like he would just basically make me put the books aside and do something else. And I loved and hated him for it at the same time. But there’s so much my life that would have been different had this been diagnosed a lot sooner. But that’s okay too, because, you know, I’ve still had a very great life, and it’s been very rewarding, and I’m, I’ve been successful in a lot of areas, despite some some major, major challenges that only in retrospect can I realize how much of it was was a biological cause, and not just, you know, being convinced that I had a better work ethic than other people.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, what I wanted to honor is, like, how common that – I feel that every single person I’ve talked to who has been diagnosed later in life had said something to that effect of, man, this was so hard, and it didn’t need to be, and not dwelling on it, but just honoring that. And I think that’s important for people who don’t, who maybe have never experienced being diagnosed with, whether it’s a neuro divergence or a mental health issue or, right? Realizing, oh, my whole life now makes so much sense, that there can be a little bit of a grief, you know, not only for you, but also for your partner and Amy, I’m curious, curious to get your thoughts on that, for just what, what’s coming up for you Amy, as you’re hearing Luke talk.
Amy Myers
I think it’s, it’s interesting to hear Luke’s perspective on that, because we haven’t actually talked too much about how he’s, I mean, other than the the things that are more obvious of like, very few times now, does he tell me I forgot my keys. Could you grab them for me? I mean, that’s, like, no longer happening. But to be made aware of the fact that he feels like he’s an entirely different person. And I, I don’t, I don’t see that. I see, I mean, I see behaviors that are a little bit different, but it’s interesting when I’m trying to reconcile, like, well, we’ve been together, you know, 23, 22 years like this diagnosis came within the last five years. So what does that mean? Like, the person that you were before, there’s still that core person carried through. And when I think about, like, boy, what would you have been, like what would our relationship have been 20 years ago had you’d already been diagnosed? Like, it’s just a thought experiment, but it also makes me think of like an like the imagery of you were, you were wearing this heavy, heavy fur coat in the middle of the winter, the same person walking or in the middle of the summer, and same person walking through and then you got the chance to take it off, and you’re still the same person underneath, but now you’re just living life in a much more comfortable way. And you’re like, okay, and I mean, we, we have done a lot of work, I mean, like therapy, I mean, Luke and I have committed to trying to be better partners for each other, and better, like showing it better for ourselves. So I know that it hasn’t been easy, but I also know that, like, to me, I don’t think that he’s a different person. I think that he’s Luke, then there’s been a diagnosis, and then there’s Luke with the diagnosis, and just it’s been very consistent for me. So I think that speaks a lot to your character, Luke.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Luke, do you want to respond to your wife? And now I’m just, now, I’m just like a bystander in this conversation between two amazing people.
Luke Mohlenhoff
This is why I, I know I used the word regret, and I think it’s more I just wonder? What I, I don’t regret it, because if I had been diagnosed as a high school kid, Amy and I may have never met.
Amy Myers
Correct. Absolutely.
Luke Mohlenhoff
I have no idea what direction my life would have have gone in had I been treated and what I would have done for a career, I just don’t know. And so I figure, you know, I’m lucky that I have the life that I do, and that Amy is is a part of my life, and that, you know, I wouldn’t want to – there’s so many things in life, even traumatic experiences, I wouldn’t want to undo, because I figured they all make me who I am today. And the biggest thing for me now, and the reason that I was willing to do this podcast today, and that I’ve spoken about this before, actually, in front of the same CREW group that you spoke in front of, was that if someone else has not yet got the diagnosis and is concerned about themselves or loved one in a mental health issue, to to please seek out help. Because, you know, there’s no time machine. You can’t go back and undo things. And no matter what’s happened to you, there’s going to be things that you’re going to you’re going to be a stronger person, a better person, or the miracles you do have in your life may have never happened if, if all the traumatic things didn’t. But if you’re still, if you’re getting out of bed every day and you’re struggling with something that is just wearing you out. And that’s what Amy didn’t see, is that I can, I can look great from the outside, and now I’m much better on the inside. Before I was a big, panicked disaster on the inside, and not wanting to share that, even with someone you know, even even with my partner who I know loves and cares about me very much, because the the level of panic was, you know, what does this mean? Like, am I? Do I just have to walk away from a career, and if I do, what is that, what does that mean for the rest of my life from a career standpoint? What does that mean for my relationship if I am not able to have a job with any sort of mental demands on it, because I can’t emotionally handle it? That was all going on in my head for a very long time before I even met Amy. How do I, how do I navigate life? And what does it mean for my relationships with whoever my partner is, with my family, with colleagues, if there’s something broken inside of me that isn’t, you know, I don’t even want to give voice to it, and for whatever reason, I’m not seeking diagnosis or treatment, but I’m going to sleep every night and getting up every day, and it’s it’s there, and some days it’s very muted. Some days it’s right there in my face, but it’s it’s always there. And now with treatment, it’s rarely there. And, that’s the thing for me. Most, everyone’s going to have anxiety and and fears at some point. I mean, that’s a natural human thing, but when it’s just there every single day, at some level, it just wears you out. And, when you’re afraid to let people know, it wears you out even more.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s the you know, going back to that, that imagery, that Amy you shared of like, it’s wearing the fur coat or the heavy coat in summer, it’s like, well, I can still move around. So I love that invitation of you know, to our friends who are listening to this, you know, you’re going to be your best advocate, whether it’s in getting diagnosed, whether it’s working with you know, provider, whether it’s communicating with your partner, your friends, your family member. I appreciate you both so much. And –
Amy Myers
Thank you. I appreciate you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And this conversation, yeah, and so, okay, so in the spirit of you all being first time guests, then you need to answer our question that we ask every first time guest. So the question we ask everyone is, what is a conversation you’ve had with yourself or someone else, that was transformative?
Amy Myers
The conversation that I’ve had with myself comes from the therapy that I started at the beginning of the pandemic, when my anxiety, like a lot of people with the pandemic, really went to a whole new level, and over the course of working with a therapist, having that conversation with myself, of this anxiety is actually here to protect me. It’s not here for me to fight. It’s not here for me to manage or put in a box. It’s here as my little co pilot meant to protect me in a dangerous situation, and I can say thank you. You’re welcome to sit here. I do not need you right now, but I appreciate that you want to be here to protect me and just I continue to have that like that mental shift in my head of telling myself it’s okay that you have these concerns, that’s totally normal, it’s totally and I don’t want to say normal, because that’s not trying to get away from using that word, but it’s understandable why this is coming up.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s a human experience.
Amy Myers
Yes, exactly, but just the conversation with myself that like you don’t have to fight, like, drop that rope, hug that bear, or whatever the phrase is that you want to use, and I mean, it was powerful. It was like, life changing. And I continue to, I have it written down and laminated, because that’s how I roll. (laughter) And it’s a little bookmark. And like, you know, you can sit here. You’re welcome to sit on the bench with me, but you know, I don’t need to do anything right now. So yeah, that’s just an internal conversation that’s been transformed.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. What about you? What about you, Luke?
Luke Mohlenhoff
I remember seeing a child therapist when I was probably in second or third grade. And the last therapy session we had was he pretty much said, You’re not the only kid that deals with this. There’s lots of other kids that, in different ways, are experiencing the same thing, and that feeling that I wasn’t alone, even if, even if things weren’t how I wanted them to be, just knowing that this was a shared experience, even though it was a traumatic experience, made me feel a lot better. And it’s something that I’ve gotten from, from any therapist that I’ve ever met with in some way, shape or form, and that’s, I know, that’s that’s why I’m willing to talk about this with other people. I feel that’s why you do the work you do, why you do this podcast, is not feeling like you’re alone. And the times that I’ve I’ve struggled the most, you know, even before I got diagnosed, was going back into that that closed room and shutting the door and isolating myself and being convinced that this was something that I had to do on my own. That I couldn’t share with other people, that I couldn’t connect with other people, that I needed to figure out or just deal with, because, you know, people who get a lot in life, you know, that you’re making a choice to make you know you’re living a hard life, and there’s benefits to that, that it’s a choice, instead of actually realizing that maybe it’s maybe it’s not a choice, maybe this is a shared experience. And I’ve met so many people, and every single when they talk about their especially mental health challenges, it’s welcoming other people and being willing to share and then getting, getting that that help and support and it maybe the help and support doesn’t come from the people that you most wish it did. Maybe it comes from people that you never, never would expect would be there to support you, but there, there is always at least one other person out there who’s going to help you. They’re going to get it. You will be so much better off by seeking that help.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. What a beautiful way for us to end. If people listen to this and they want to connect with you, both of you, what’s the best way for people to connect with you and reach out?
Amy Myers
They can email me at Amy at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. Happy to field any questions. Share any thoughts. Give any suggestions. If somebody does have a comment, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
We’re a very open book on how –
Amy Myers
Absolutely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
How we work together. So –
Amy Myers
Yep.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Luke, if people want to connect with you, how do you recommend?
Luke Mohlenhoff
I’ll send you a personal email, because I really do. I feel it’s so important if, if this resonated with somebody, and they just, they just want to reach out and say, hey, you know, is this common? Does this feel, feel right? You know that that support is, you know, if this helps one person, and if they need to email me or have a cup of coffee and talk about it. It’s, you know, I’m, I’m so blessed to have, you know, the the pre and post diagnosis me, and if someone else gets, gets anything from that, you know, it might not be the person going through, it might be someone who is, is in Amy’s seat.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Luke Mohlenhoff
Saying, hey, is there, is there something I could maybe tell my partner that, you know, might make them willing to to get some help. I, you know, I might not have the right thing to say, but even just saying, hey, you know,–
Sarah Noll Wilson
Just listen.
Luke Mohlenhoff
The fact that you even care and are and are worried about them. Just let them, let them know that in a way that’s, you know, doesn’t have to be invasive or or pushy, but say, hey, you know, I heard this guy, you know, listen to listen to Sarah’s podcast. You know, maybe you’ll get something you know, maybe you’ll get something out of that.
Amy Myers
And I’m absolutely always interested in hearing insights from people who are in Luke’s shoes or your shoes, Sarah to say, Hey, I know you’re somebody who wants to support in a in a helpful way or not, but a loving partnership kind of way. Here’s what you might want to think about. I mean, again, absolutely love to hear that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And these are just two great humans you all should connect with. So we’ll be sure to share their contact information in the show notes. Luke, Amy, Amy, Luke, thank you for being amazing. Thank you for coming on the show and Luke, thank you for your courage and Amy, thank you for your courage as well.
Amy Myers
Thank you. Thank you, Luke.
Luke Mohlenhoff
Thank you. It’s the least I could do to give back to you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guests this week have been two of my dearest friends, Luke Mohlenhoff and Amy Myers, and I think it’s just so powerful for us to talk about these topics that impact our relationships, whether we realize it or not. And one of the things that, one of the things that I’m holding on to that Luke shared was that idea of sometimes when people think they’re being helpful can actually increase the anxiety. When he was telling the story about, you know, don’t move my wallet. That was something that I resonated with, and I didn’t, I didn’t realize. And then, and then, with Amy and I get to experience her grace and compassion and understanding and empathy every single day, is just realizing how does she show up in a way to best support and serve what we need and how we need it. I, you know, I say it over and over again, I don’t know where I would be without having Amy in my life and she’s amazing. And we do want to hear from you, so let us know what resonated, what came up for you, and we’ll be sure to pass along your notes to Luke and Amy. You can reach out to us at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. Again, that’s podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com and I read and respond to every email that we get, so we’d love to hear from you. And if you like the show and you want to support us? There’s two ways you can do it. First, if you haven’t already, please be sure to rate, review, and subscribe to the show in your preferred podcast platform. This helps us be able to increase exposure and continue to have great conversations, like we did with Luke and Amy today. Another way you can support us is through financial contribution. By becoming a patron. You can go to patreon dot com slash conversations on conversations, where your financial support will 100% go to the team that makes the show possible.
Speaking of which, let’s give the team of the podcast some love. So to our producer Nick Wilson, our sound editor Drew Noll, our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNOWCO crew. We couldn’t do it without you. And just a big, wholehearted thank you again to Luke and Amy for joining us today. That my friends, is another episode of Conversations on Conversations. Thank you so much for tuning in and showing up for yourself, for us and those in your world. And remember when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, I do believe we can change the world. So till next week, please be sure to rest, rehydrate, and we’ll see you again soon. Bye.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.