Join Sarah Noll Wilson and Dr. Teresa Peterson as they celebrate the release of the Don’t Feed the Elephants! Workbook by exploring fresh insights and perspectives on the challenges of starting tough conversations. Topics range from overcoming avoidance to crafting impactful opening statements that set the tone for honest dialogue.
ABOUT
Dr. Teresa Peterson is the Director of Learning and Development for Sarah Noll Wilson, Inc. In her daily work, she serves as Sarah’s key content collaborator. Teresa enjoys facilitating, researching, and is passionate about applying best practices for learning to make our experiences meaningful, engaging, and accessible for all types of learners. Teresa holds a Doctorate in Education from the University of Northern Iowa and brings over twenty years of experience teaching, facilitating, and leading to our team. Our clients love Teresa’s grounded energy, depth of thought, and ability to listen deeply.
SHOW NOTES
Email: teresa@sarahnollwilson.com
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/teresa-peterson-EdD
Don’t Feed the Elephants! Workbook: www.theleadercampus.com
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson (00:00)
Hello and welcome to Conversations on Conversations, where we explore topics to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, and joining me back is our good friend, Dr. Teresa Peterson. Teresa! We probably should do a formal bio for people who haven’t, but we’re not. This is where we’re at, friends. It’s Halloween. We’re a couple hours from beggars night, trick or treating.
Teresa Peterson (00:14)
Sarah Noll Wilson. Yeah.
Fine.
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (00:30)
And so let me take a moment for those of you who maybe are tuning in for the first time. Teresa and I have worked together for six and a half years. And she is our director. Yeah. Isn’t that crazy? It is a serious amount of time. Amy and I were talking about how she’s going on four years in January. I mean, that’s a serious amount of time. We were babies when she joined us. This is very interesting for our listeners.
Teresa Peterson (00:44)
That’s a serious amount of time.
Yeah.
Right.
Such babies.
Sarah Noll Wilson (01:01)
No, but Teresa is our director of learning and development. She works closely with our clients to create incredible learning experiences. She pushes our content to be better, our learning experiences to be more thoughtful. food language, her love language is food. Your food, what is your food language? We’re just going to make that a thing.
Teresa Peterson (01:18)
yeah, you got it.
All of the above. My food language is yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson (01:27)
Yeah. We just this week launched our companion workbook. So for those of you who are watching on YouTube, you’ll see it. There she is. She’s so pretty. For those of you who are joining audio, just imagine the cover of the book, but in a dark blue. And it says workbook instead of not saying workbook. But.
But this is a project we’ve been working on and evolving for quite a while. And actually, I was thinking about the first real, one of our first episodes was bringing you on and us talking about avoidance. So it’s really appropriate for us to come back and talk about what have we learned over the years of working with avoiding conversations and navigating conflict and all of those fun things. So before we get into our structure,
Teresa Peterson (02:07)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (02:20)
and I share with people who’s gonna be interviewing us, Teresa, what else do you wanna share or what else should we know about where you’re at right now?
Teresa Peterson (02:31)
I would say I’m very excited to be here today. I am fresh off of facilitating for a long afternoon and some of it was about this very topic. So there might be insights that are as hot off the presses that I probably have. Yeah, well, that I may not have even fully processed myself, you know, until today. yeah, so I’m excited. So Sarah, in this very spooktacular episode.
Sarah Noll Wilson (02:41)
Mmm.
that I haven’t even heard.
Sure, yeah.
Yes, Teresa. Yeah. So who is interviewing because Teresa and I co authored this workbook and we thought, well, we need to both be interviewed. So we’re going to play a game called Can Chat GPT interview Dr. Teresa Peterson and Sarah Noll Wilson. So what I have done friends is I have put in a prompt and I’ll read to you the prompt just so you can kind of play along.
Teresa Peterson (02:59)
Who is interviewing us?
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (03:24)
Basically, it’s a podcast for authors who just wrote a companion workbook to support people having conversations they’re avoiding. They are two leadership coaches who work with hundreds of leaders and team members a year. The idea is to talk about challenges they observe strategies, best practices, what are the 20 questions they can answer? Okay. And here’s how we’re going to do it. So it feels fresh. And you know, we don’t know what the questions are. But Teresa, you’re going to start with just give me a quick number one through 20.
Teresa Peterson (03:54)
6.
Sarah Noll Wilson (03:54)
Six, okay. So question number six from chat GPT for both of us. It’s kind of fun, right? No whammies. Okay, this is a good one. What challenges do leaders and team members often face when starting these avoided conversations?
Teresa Peterson (04:00)
feel very excited. I feel like I am on a game show. Okay, I’m ready.
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (04:17)
And that I think we could break down into two. I mean, there’s a lot of answers to it, but we could talk about it through the lens of team members as well as people who have positional power and authority. Yeah. This is representative of how our brains work. So I’ll say it from the team member. One of the challenges when you are somebody who is in a formal authority or lower
Teresa Peterson (04:23)
There are a lot of answers.
Kick it off, keep going, keep going with your, I mean like, yeah, no, like you’re ready to go.
Yeah!
Sarah Noll Wilson (04:46)
power position, you are often making a cost benefit analysis of is it worth it for me to speak up? How will this impact my career? How will this impact our team? And, and that is just sort of a generic thing that people are challenged with, which gets then more complex if you have even lower status in an organization because of
Teresa Peterson (04:52)
yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (05:12)
your identities intersecting identities that may put you further away from the dominant group. But I think there’s often this very real risk analysis that often will lead people to protection versus courage and having the conversation. So that’s something that comes up for me.
Teresa Peterson (05:31)
I want to name that I saw that I’ve seen that with several groups lately, but when I’m circulating and they’re talking at their tables, I hear the same thing coming up at each table. And today, one person voiced it, even though I’d heard it from 10, 10 people. so at all levels of the organization, you’re making this cost benefit or this risk calculation. And that was certainly apparent.
Sarah Noll Wilson (05:41)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Teresa Peterson (06:01)
and sometimes as most apparent with middle managers. And so I think sometimes we think of the team member as the individual contributor and not the team member as someone in the middle who’s making kind of a double calculation. So I’m not in any way minimizing the dilemma facing the individual contributor, but I don’t think we name enough the pressure on that middle.
Sarah Noll Wilson (06:04)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Teresa Peterson (06:27)
Something else that was coming up for me when we think about avoidance and we think about leadership is it’s such a common misunderstanding that if I bring it up or allow it to be said, then it becomes real or like it just manifests out of the air. People are already thinking about things like you stepping into the conversation didn’t create it.
Sarah Noll Wilson (06:40)
Hmm.
Mmm. Mmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm.
Yeah.
Teresa Peterson (06:54)
but it sure might help. And so I think I see a lot of avoidance of if we just don’t bring it up, I just think it will go away, which is a terrible idea for so many things.
Sarah Noll Wilson (06:56)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, that’s such a great, that’s such a great call out from the standpoint of how often we will hear people say, I just don’t, I don’t want to make it a big deal. Or I’m afraid if we talk about it, it’ll get worse or and you know, or, or I don’t want to mess it up. And, and the reality is, is just like you said, it’s it’s in the room. And if we don’t
Teresa Peterson (07:18)
Yes, yes.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (07:33)
if we don’t navigate it, talk about it, reflect on it, then we can’t improve it. We either just keep moving forward with it, you know, wrapped around our leg like a little toddler slowing us down and putting us off balance, you know, or or worse. And and so let’s let’s take it to even beyond just the specific roles. So
Teresa Peterson (07:38)
Yeah.
Yes!
right.
Sarah Noll Wilson (08:00)
you know, other challenges we just see humans face when starting, starting these avoided conversations is there’s a real pattern of people wanting to have the right words of wanting. That’s probably one of the most common things we hear. What are the right words? And you know, I always say that it’s not a script and I know our
Teresa Peterson (08:14)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (08:27)
You know, my colleague and coach, our colleagues, Stephanie Chin would say there’s not a script, there’s a tone, you know, but the reality is, and this has been an evolution in our thinking also, you know, in large part to how Stephanie has helped us think through this content and other people have pushed us that there is no such thing as right words. And what’s right for us, and we even address this in the workbook, like what’s right for us as to Midwest, American, like American Midwest women who are white who
Teresa Peterson (08:32)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (08:56)
are middle age might look very different for someone else. And the conversations that you and I have together might look different than the conversations we have with clients or with family members or whatever the case is. And so a lot of times people will hesitate because they don’t know how to have the right words, but it’s just what’s right for the situation, what’s right for the relationship, what’s right for the people.
One of the things that has been an evolution in our work, so I’m teeing you up for your opening statements, is this evolution of understanding how critical the first couple minutes are of an important conversation. And we do talk about this in the workbook and we share what I lovingly have named Peterson’s opening statement model.
Teresa Peterson (09:29)
Mmm.
Mm.
Yeah, I saw that on the slide.
Sarah Noll Wilson (09:53)
yeah, was that awkward? No, okay, we could talk later about that. there’s a lot of there’s a lot of models and conversation models named by men, that’s okay to have women. So Teresa, talk to us about what we’ve learned about the importance of those first couple of moments. And what are some strategies people can use when thinking about their opening statement?
Teresa Peterson (09:54)
No, it’s fine.
So something I become more grounded in every day is the power of a good opening statement. And I want us to think about this as being a different kind of opening statement than has been shown on your favorite legal drama. This is not pleading a case or making a case. This is about an invitation to connect. And so it’s very specific purpose for the statement. What we know, and this is from the Gottman Institute,
is that the first three minutes of the conversation set the tone, lead to success or not, know, over 90 % of the time. And so one trap we know all humans can fall into is thinking, I don’t have time to prepare for this conversation properly. So I guess I’ll just wing it. And then the consequence of winging it is even if you’re very skilled, but unprepared, that’s a
Sarah Noll Wilson (11:16)
Mm, mm.
Teresa Peterson (11:17)
very precarious place to be, or it becomes a very easy way to just keep avoiding. Like, I haven’t been able to prepare. So my brain, and we found working with other people, a lot of people love the constraint of just focusing on that first three minutes. And then within that, what’s that kickoff? What’s that opening statement? And so a good opening statement for me,
Sarah Noll Wilson (11:20)
Yeah.
Teresa Peterson (11:45)
and what we’ve seen with groups and what I’ve experienced myself has three components. And I love it because I just think of it as three sentences, just boom, boom, boom. I’ll come back to the elements, but something that helps and that I’ve been saying repeatedly to groups when we’re practicing is a good opening statement is a gift to everyone in the conversation. One,
Sarah Noll Wilson (12:07)
Mm. Mm.
Teresa Peterson (12:08)
your mind is framed up around what’s most important to say, the tone you want to set. I’m going back to Stephanie’s words, like thinking about tone. And it’s truly a gift to the person on the other side or the people on the other side of the conversation, because it’s your clarity, even if it’s not what they’re hoping is going to be talked about. Maybe it’s a situation they’re not enjoying either. But the clarity is a gift in and of itself. So that just keeps
Sarah Noll Wilson (12:33)
Mm. Mm. Mm.
Teresa Peterson (12:37)
becoming, it just keeps being reinforced as I see this framework. ahead, you, please get in here, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (12:44)
Yeah, before you go into the framework, well, that’s the first time I’ve heard you talk about it in that way. And it is true when I think of times that we’ve observed somebody being willing to speak up or address it, and it’s done thoughtfully.
And that still doesn’t mean it’s comfortable. So I want to be really clear to people listening. Thoughtfully doesn’t mean perfect. Thoughtfully doesn’t mean without discomfort or nerves or risk or emotion, but intentionally. But there is a sense of I’ve thought about this. Like you send this message of I’ve thought about this. This is important to me. And, and you’re also what was coming up for me, just I was having flashes of personal conversations.
Teresa Peterson (13:05)
No. Yep.
Mm-mm.
Yep.
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (13:32)
conversations where maybe friends or family members have, you know, brought up difficult things to me or things I’ve done that haven’t been effective. And the intentionality of how they started it sent a message to me that they were open to having a conversation, which is part of the message you want to so I love that language of of it’s it’s a gift for everyone involved.
Teresa Peterson (13:51)
Yeah.
Yeah, that’s become more clear to me as we’ve been utilizing it with groups and seeing it play out in real time. that’s one of those very fresh insights. Hot off the presses, just as good as it gets. So an opening statement, what we have observed to be very effective opening statements, have three essential – Many of the times, yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson (14:09)
Yeah, I love it.
many of the times, not all, but yeah, yeah.
Teresa Peterson (14:27)
I think true to us and our spirit, this might not apply to the situation you’re in. I think this works for a lot of situations a lot of the time. And even if it doesn’t feel right, even considering this model might get you grounded in what you want to say. So you might use it as is and you might gain an insight that you want. The first component is acknowledge something that sets the tone for why we’re coming together. This could look like.
Sarah Noll Wilson (14:45)
Yeah.
Teresa Peterson (14:58)
Sarah, I know we’ve both been struggling with that article, right? Something that might be an example of a conversation. But any number of things. I know we’re both really struggling to get through this last big push to the deadline. Anything that gives you a context for what the conversation’s about.
Sarah Noll Wilson (15:05)
Mm-hmm. I know which article you’re talking about too.
Teresa Peterson (15:28)
Something I like about that is. If we’ve been avoiding, it can become a kitchen sink conversation and kitchen sink conversations. Everything’s coming out. It’s hard for you to stay regulated. hard for them to stay regulated. If you’re the one initiating it, what’s most important to you is likely to get lost because there’s too much detail. So for me, it helps to just kind of rein it in, just bring it into.
Sarah Noll Wilson (15:37)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Teresa Peterson (15:57)
What specifically are we going to dig into? Now, I’ve said that and maybe the friction over this deadline has a lot of moving parts. We can get there, but you can imagine how it would feel differently if I said there’s friction over this deadline that’s coming up. I don’t like the way your department’s doing X, Y, right? Like I could just overwhelm the other person immediately. And remember, we’re trying to set a tone that’s going to carry the conversation.
Sarah Noll Wilson (16:21)
Mm-hmm.
Teresa Peterson (16:26)
forward in a productive way. Not necessarily pleasant, right, but productive. And so that feels important to mention. The second element is to anchor. I think of this as what’s bigger than this moment. This could be something that’s important to me that’s bigger than this moment. Ideally, it’s something both of you have in common because I want you to picture situating yourselves shoulder to shoulder to look at a
Sarah Noll Wilson (16:30)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Teresa Peterson (16:54)
problem together, that’s a very effective way to move forward, isn’t always possible. But if there’s something, so Sarah, we have so, so many moving parts leading up to this deadline. I know it’s so important to both of us that we get there, right? So I’ve kind of shared a bit of the dilemma or the why we’re having this conversation. And I know it’s important to both of us. Some examples I was talking through with groups this week.
reinforcing someone’s commitment. I know you’re so committed to this part of the project, or I know you value patient care like few other people I’ve worked with, right? If there’s anything you can do to show that you know the person, that you understand something about them, or that you are united in some way, that’s so useful. And then the last part is action. please go ahead, jump in. Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (17:25)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Well, what I was just going to say, and you said this is that maybe your conversation is a situation where you have to set a boundary or you have to write it could be coming from a place of also, you know, getting really clear about
Teresa Peterson (17:56)
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (18:03)
you know, what’s important to you, you know, and I’m thinking of a time when somebody said, you know, I want to follow up on that, because in my relationships, I really value x, y, and z. And I didn’t like how that conversation went. But I want you to know where I’m coming from, because this is really important to me in our in our relationship. So sorry, continue on. So acknowledge anchor.
Teresa Peterson (18:06)
Yes.
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
No, yes. So let’s pause here for a moment because something I love about this three step process is that by using we and our very collaborative language, we can encourage ourselves to sit together looking at a problem. And if you want to use this frame for boundaries, for things that you’re not collaborating,
Sarah Noll Wilson (18:32)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Teresa Peterson (18:56)
you can easily substitute that I or me and you, right? And so that language change is very intentional. And I love that something that came up in a group this week, they were, they had a few really sticky ones and they were stuck on what to anchor to. And we talked through some of the same thing, you know, whether it was values, whether it was things they’d seen before and where we landed was very appropriate for this very tricky situation was the anchoring was just
Sarah Noll Wilson (19:00)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Teresa Peterson (19:26)
naming the dilemma or illuminating the dilemma. I know you’ve shared you want X, Y, Z and what the team needs is this. And so like, here’s the dilemma. The thing I loved about that approach was it was honest because you know, you and I are not big fans of saying things we don’t mean or sugarcoating in a way that is distracting or detracting. Right. And so
Sarah Noll Wilson (19:28)
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
Mm. Mm.
Teresa Peterson (19:55)
The dilemma was just named. then, so what comes up for you when you think about that? Or this is how I’m thinking about it. How are you thinking about it? But a way to just name, because I think what can happen, especially in those really sticky ones, is that it can feel so you versus me, and one of us will win, and one of us will lose, as opposed to like, this is the dilemma in front of both of us, right? And so there was something humanizing in that.
Sarah Noll Wilson (20:14)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Teresa Peterson (20:23)
And then that last step is action, which we want to be careful that as the person initiating it, we are not forcing a path forward on the other person. I like to think of it as what’s my invitation or maybe my recommendation. Like, would you like to talk about this now or do you want to talk about it tomorrow? Or can we think about how to make a win-win or can we both think about this and come back, right? Some type of
Sarah Noll Wilson (20:35)
Mm-hmm.
Teresa Peterson (20:53)
invitation, because if I really want someone’s best thinking around this problem, I might need to give them some space. So that’s something else I want to say about an opening statement is. And we’ve been talking about this a lot lately, so this feels very relevant. I think you could very easily communicate your opening statement and writing and say, let’s this will be our jumping off point tomorrow when we check in right, you can.
Sarah Noll Wilson (21:00)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Teresa Peterson (21:20)
you can share this with them and give them that time to think or that space. You could also share it face to face and give them some time if needed. And if not, you might just go, go all in. But I want to keep challenging. This does not have to be once and we sit and I have my opening statement and now you’re responding. You know, like I want that formality to just float away a little bit. Right. So so some type of invitation. Great.
ones we’ve heard before, I think we’re 80 % on the same page and 20 % not. And then here’s the action. Can we talk about the 20 % we’re not? that was one of the most skillful ones I’ve ever seen. Sarah, what comes up for you when you think about how you’ve used this with groups or yourself or anything related to that?
Sarah Noll Wilson (21:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, well, I mean, just to echo some of the things you you shared that idea of consent, right of checking in, you know, or or if it is urgent, being really clear and communicating that of of of that sense of urgency, the the simplicity of naming the dilemma. And I actually love the language of dilemma.
Teresa Peterson (22:17)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson (22:39)
Because often we know this, right? Most challenges and conflict in relationships are perpetual. They’re just…
Teresa Peterson (22:47)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (22:48)
differences of values, differences of preferences, differences of style where there isn’t an obvious right or wrong, but there is this tension. And so being able to just name it as that makes it also can feel less threatening, instead of feeling like we’re nose to nose, we can can look at it. The thing that the thing that I have found is that in people slowing down,
Teresa Peterson (22:50)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (23:16)
to
think about this, especially, especially if they’ve taken the time to get curious, right. And we’ll talk about that. Is that sometimes we might not start with somebody, okay, what’s your opening statement? But when we’ve worked with groups to help them get curious with themselves, get curious about the others, and then to think about getting curious with the other that has opened up the language, and then they feel much more confident stepping into it. And also, it’s a it’s okay.
Teresa Peterson (23:25)
Absolutely.
Sarah Noll Wilson (23:48)
if you like normalizing humanity actually I was thinking about this and this was something that was one of your additions. I’m flipping through the workbook right now.
Teresa Peterson (23:57)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (23:59)
Yeah, like matching the words and tone modeling the beliefs you want to grow being true to yourself getting consent for the conversation, right? All those things we can think about in being able to show up. But for the people who are so worried about it being perfect, it’s also okay to say, you know, I observed somebody once who said,
might not get this right, but I’m going to work to make it right. Or I might not say the right things. Like I had a manager who whenever somebody was like, I’m not sure what to say. And then they would say, Well, it’s okay, just say it and then we’ll fix it later. Right? Or this is uncomfortable for me to share, because I really value our relationship. And I want to make sure we both feel good about it. And, or I know that this might be hard for you to hear. You know, sometimes that’s feedback that I’ve received is like, I know that this
This might be hard for you to hear, but I know you’re on this journey and I want to help you with this. And right now let’s talk about the truth moment. I love that. That was just one question. Way to go chat GPT. So wasn’t
Teresa Peterson (25:10)
So far, so good.
Sarah Noll Wilson (25:13)
wasn’t the chat GPT. But the good prompt. So so actually, we’ll kind of work backwards from that. And, you know, I think I think let’s take a moment and talk about the evolution of the curiosity first approach. So one of the things we break down in the book, the workbook.
Teresa Peterson (25:16)
Yeah.
Hey.
Sarah Noll Wilson (25:32)
is to go step by step with each chapter from the Don’t Feed the Elephant. We should say that explicitly. So for those of you who don’t know, I wrote a book in 2022 called Don’t Feed the Elephants Overcoming the Art of Avoidance. We’re just talking about the workbook in shorthand, like people know what the hell we’re talking about. It’s a good catch 23 minutes into this conversation, Teresa.
Teresa Peterson (25:40)
Yeah.
It’s a good catch.
Sarah Noll Wilson (25:57)
And this, my friends, is what it looks like when you are operating from a place of implicit understanding and not being explicit. And here it is on full display. So the workbook, so the Don’t Feed the Elephant workbook goes in tandem with it and just does a deeper dive. And one of the frameworks that I offered up as a tool we could use in the
Teresa Peterson (26:03)
Bye.
Sarah Noll Wilson (26:25)
book, but we do a deeper dive than in the workbook is this idea of the curiosity first approach. And, and essentially, it’s this. Most people when they’re frustrated or struggling can get stuck in the emotion, but they don’t take time to understand what’s actually driving the frustration. It’s, we see a lot of times people are angry or frustrated, but they can’t articulate why they just know they’re frustrated or angry with the person or the situation.
We also know that when we’re struggling or under stress, it’s hard for us to consider the other person’s perspective if that makes sense in that situation, which then is part of what contributes to feeling like we have to prepare for a confrontation. And so the model is kind of simple. And again, it’s not a one size fits all approach, but essentially it’s taking time to ask yourself.
Teresa Peterson (27:06)
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (27:17)
getting curious with yourself just what am I feeling? What do I need right now? What do I know about the situation that the other person might not know? What are my preferences in this situation? What role did I play? There’s a whole number of questions we can ask ourselves. And then, when appropriate, getting curious about the other person and and getting curious about the other person isn’t about
filling their story in, it’s just about reminding us that they have a story and I’m using the language when appropriate because we have seen this step in particular be weaponized by really well intended leaders or HR professionals who maybe they have a situation where somebody’s brought up an experience of discrimination or harassment and they’re asking the person who is victimized to get curious about the aggressor. But you can see how that’s not when we’re going to use that.
Teresa Peterson (28:01)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (28:10)
I’m never going to ask someone to get curious about, I mean, you’re essentially revictimizing them. anyway, so taking the time and then the ideas, opening statements, like we talked about how do we get curious with somebody? And one of the things that has been really eye opening for me over the last two years is when we’re working with groups, we will have them choose a personal case study and we won’t know any of the details.
Teresa Peterson (28:17)
Hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (28:40)
And we will have them share anonymously through Mentimeter what became clear for you when you got curious with yourself. And it’s always very provocative. But it’s often when they take the time to get curious about the other person that they find their door into the conversation. Right? mean, and that’s been a that’s been very provocative for me personally to see that so consistently. And what that looks like in practice is
Teresa Peterson (28:57)
Absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (29:09)
you know, when people slow down and got curious about the other person, they realized, they might be struggling too with this situation. And I hadn’t hadn’t occurred to me that they might be struggling. Another another common one we see is, I don’t think they have all the information I do. Another one is I haven’t been clear about my needs, or expectations. And so of course, they’re not showing up like we haven’t even had a conversation about that. So
Teresa Peterson (29:24)
Yep.
Sarah Noll Wilson (29:36)
So the practice of getting curious isn’t, it isn’t a nice to have, it isn’t just to feel good, it’s to give us insight so we can have a more accurate conversation and to the point you made earlier, that even if there’s other stuff, even if there’s other challenges, other frustrations that we’re really just focusing on, what’s the one most important in this moment that we can start to move the needle on that maybe might be the domino?
Teresa Peterson (29:47)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (30:05)
that will trigger other conversations to come up. So what comes up for you?
Teresa Peterson (30:06)
Yes.
I think that point about thinking of it like a domino, because you, everyone, and I’ll just say you, being you the listener, who maybe is initiating a conversation, we are so much better served by having one smaller, more successful, not comfortable necessarily, not pleasant necessarily, but a productive,
successful conversation, we know that can build trust. We know that can be a door opener, not a closer, right? And so having that intentionality. And the other thing I want to say, and I saw this with a group recently and I had to call a timeout, the first step of getting curious with yourself, not for everyone is it the most challenging, but for lots of folks because we are
Sarah Noll Wilson (30:48)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Teresa Peterson (31:09)
we’re wired to see what the other person is doing to us, right? That feels very visceral in some situations. And so pausing to just consider what role you might be playing, whether it’s not having spoken up, whether it’s tolerating something for too long, whether it’s being unclear. That to me is just an essential part. Asking yourself, you know,
Sarah Noll Wilson (31:21)
Yeah.
Teresa Peterson (31:37)
For me, one of the most powerful questions is about the assumptions I’m holding. Or sometimes I ask myself, what other folders in my brain have opened related to this issue? Because my brain is analog. It’s a filing cabinet. But what else came out when this dilemma came up? Because it helps me put back in the filing cabinet, actually, this isn’t about 1982. Or this isn’t about, right? So it helps me right size in that sense.
Sarah Noll Wilson (31:40)
Yeah.
Teresa Peterson (32:07)
And the other thing I want to say is that you’re right. The steps on paper are simple. The steps in reality, it’s a very minds on process, right? And the versatility of leveraging those questions for yourself with your loved ones as a coaching model, it’s extremely powerful. think the simplicity is…
Sarah Noll Wilson (32:14)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Teresa Peterson (32:36)
what makes it memorable, right? And then the application of it is so incredibly powerful.
Sarah Noll Wilson (32:37)
Yeah.
Yeah, that’s one of the things that for those of you who check out the workbook, there’s a lot of deep reflection questions of each of the chapters that go deeper than we did in the book, there’s new content. And, and we were really intentional about this idea of we had a client ask us how do you scale coaching?
Teresa Peterson (32:50)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (33:07)
how do you scale that coaching experience to help somebody go deep into their self awareness beyond just surface level so that they could really see it? So it is a simple practice in theory, but the work itself takes some courage and some vulnerability. Whether that is realizing that…
I haven’t spoken up about it and that’s been a disservice to the team or I haven’t spoken about it. And that’s actually been a disservice to me.
And that can be a powerful place to come from. So when we talk about the role you own, we aren’t necessarily talking about always carrying the same weight, especially if something harmful happens. That’s not what we’re talking about. But just for you to be able to get clear and and then genuinely getting curious about the other person, you know, as we’re recording this, we’re in American political season, which is just a hot mess. And, you know, and and one of
Teresa Peterson (33:42)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (34:12)
ways we can at least try to navigate fundamental value differences is trying to understand and I don’t have to agree with you to understand you. But I can at least like, okay, well, like that makes sense. I still think it’s problematic, but I can understand why you are coming from that from that place. So
Teresa Peterson (34:29)
Hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (34:34)
There’s a question that’s popping up in the corner of my eye. So I’m just going to call it out number nine, because I want to make sure that we give space to this because this has certainly been an area of evolution in our thinking and continues to be. How do power dynamics impact the way people approach or avoid conversations?
Teresa Peterson (34:38)
See you
The answer is in every way.
Sarah Noll Wilson (34:56)
Yeah. So, okay, so let’s so for people who might hear power dynamics and not necessarily go like, yeah, I know what that means. But let’s let’s break down what what can power dynamics look like? Because it’s not one definition.
Teresa Peterson (35:01)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, no, it’s, nope. means a lot of different things. It might be my tenure in an organization. It might be my position of formal power and authority in an organization. I might be the member of the dominant group within an organization, particularly if I’m a white male. We know that sex, gender play a role in power dynamics.
What I see and have experienced myself is your marital status, your parenting or caregiving status. Yes, thank you. absolutely. Yeah. I feel like.
Sarah Noll Wilson (35:48)
Hmm. Your racial identity, your sexual orientation, your, right, like all of those. Even your, even your economics status. And then those can intersect and.
Teresa Peterson (36:02)
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So when we think about how power dynamics, I want to be true to the prompt, how power dynamics impact how we show up in a conversation. know, one of the most basic ways is whether I think I need to listen or consider to what you’re saying at all.
Sarah Noll Wilson (36:16)
Yeah, the way, yeah, yeah.
Hmm. Hmm.
Teresa Peterson (36:31)
I mean, that has been more clear to me recently. That is one of the most egregious ways power dynamic. Like we can talk about the nuance of how power plays out in a conversation. And that’s a very valuable conversation, by the way. And I know we’re going to go there. But what I can’t help but think it’s probably just where life is a few mere days before the election.
Sarah Noll Wilson (36:35)
Mm.
Teresa Peterson (36:59)
not to mention some of the groups I’ve been with in my own life. Do I think based on my position that I even owe you listening or engaging, you know, and that that my friends is the toughest nut to crack because I think something we’re very skilled in and our partners are very skilled in is helping think through the power dynamics when approaching dialogue or conversation.
Sarah Noll Wilson (37:07)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teresa Peterson (37:28)
and I think it’s very hard and people are reluctant to say out loud, I don’t think I even need to engage them in this. Or like, I don’t owe them my time to listen. So that was one of the most raw things that came up when you said that.
Sarah Noll Wilson (37:39)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. And well, it’s it’s honest and it’s present. We know that we all have biases. We know that we know that women are listened to and interrupted, like listen to less and interrupted more at meetings. We know that that increases if you’re a woman of color. If you are older, we know that there
Teresa Peterson (37:48)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (38:10)
And that’s when we talk about why it’s difficult to get curious with ourselves. Those are the questions we need to be asking ourselves. You know, if I’m if I’m saying to myself, don’t even care what they say, then interrogate that a bit. And, and who’s you know, because part of part of what we push on with groups and ourselves is
Teresa Peterson (38:18)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (38:38)
Who is safe to speak up and who do you listen to and who are you open to feedback from or disagreements from or debates from and who are you not and what’s the pattern? And if you are like most humans, you are going to resonate with people who look like you, sound like you, share your values than people who aren’t. And that has real consequences, not only to the mental health and wellbeing, but also to promotional
Teresa Peterson (39:01)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (39:08)
opportunities, people’s ability to be successful. And, and the reality is, is we all have biases, all of us and we all, we all do things that intentionally or unintentionally silence people. And I think that’s a really important call out Teresa of just when do you even have the thought, I actually don’t have to listen to you. Because I’m a white woman. And I know that I have the power in this
Teresa Peterson (39:17)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (39:38)
situation. And you’re a black man. And so like, right, and that if that feels uncomfortable for you to hear friends, or if you imagine other scenarios, sit with that. And, and the question isn’t, do you think that way or not? The question is when?
Teresa Peterson (39:39)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (40:00)
Right? Maybe it’s your younger child, you know, right? Kids, or maybe it’s your spouse or partner who’s been driving you nuts and like, come on. And there might be times when you’re like, you know what, I just can’t give it to you, because you haven’t, like, I haven’t gotten it from you, whatever the case is, like there are, it’s not, nothing is so black and white or so concrete here, but that’s a really important part of power. The other thing I wanted to add is,
Teresa Peterson (40:05)
Yeah. Yep.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (40:30)
And I talked about this in the book, but it’s become clear related to this is that sometimes and many times, people might avoid a conversation to protect their power. You know, or to, or or to protect their relationship to power. I just just heard a situation recently that was
Teresa Peterson (40:42)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (40:58)
you know, a tough, a tough situation of discrimination that was denied. And the person who was doing the report apologized in private, saying they didn’t agree with the findings, but they had to go with it. But did they speak up in the moment? No.
Teresa Peterson (41:13)
Noooo
Sarah Noll Wilson (41:16)
Did they share the feedback that would have helped the person? No. You know, the first time I became aware of this was working with a group where there was some really obvious and when I say obvious, mean, obvious harassment issues going on. And the leader just seemed either in denial or naive about how serious it was. But as soon as it started to impact his, his stability as a leader, he sure did want to take advantage of.
Teresa Peterson (41:28)
Mmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (41:45)
taking care of the problem. so, so yeah, and then I think the third thing we definitely need to speak to, which we have a little bit already is just, it is just riskier for some people to speak up, period. It’s riskier because if they do something wrong, if they’re one of the only, it can play out as judgment against everyone who holds identities that are similar to them. If you’re lower status, if you’re younger in your career,
Teresa Peterson (42:13)
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (42:14)
and you don’t want to get blackballed. You don’t want to get labeled as difficult. You don’t want to get labeled as the word we’ve heard recently is high maintenance. Now it was the one that came up recently is like, well, people, people who want to know the “why’s”, I mean, those are the high maintenance ones, you know? And so you hear that and you go, OK, so don’t don’t question things. That’s an example of how power dynamic can really silence.
Teresa Peterson (42:28)
Hmm.
Yeah, the last point I want to make about this, and I’ve seen quite a bit of this recently, and I want to quote Dr. Lindsey Godwin And I don’t think I’m going to get this quite right. But if someone wants to hear what you have to say, like your exact words don’t matter. And if someone doesn’t want to hear what you have to say,
the exact words you choose don’t matter. And I love it because it’s a balance. First of all, when you’re very good intentioned and you want it to be perfect, your good intentions, yeah, like your good intentions will likely register with the other person as an authentic attempt to connect. And likewise, because I think something often the person who is most senior or
Sarah Noll Wilson (43:09)
Mm.
It won’t, might not matter.
Mm.
Teresa Peterson (43:32)
most valued in the organization or has the most power in any of those ways that we named. mean, whether you’re neurotypical, you’re neurodiverse, right? Like there is how many paths could we go? Yes, yes, yes, right. So many factors. The person in the most. The position of the most power often feels like they’re allowed to communicate any way they choose.
Sarah Noll Wilson (43:42)
Yeah, yeah. If you’re if you’re speak the primary language as your your your home language or not.
Teresa Peterson (44:01)
as harshly, as abruptly as they want. And everyone else needs to get it very right for them. And so that’s one that’s felt very prickly and frustrating to me lately because behind the scenes, Sarah and I recorded a podcast for a client, a private podcast for them. we talked about…
Sarah Noll Wilson (44:10)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teresa Peterson (44:27)
We didn’t use it through this lens of the person with the most power, but essentially, when is it your obligation, perhaps as the person with the most power, to be the most flexible, to be the most willing to bend, to be the most willing to meet the other person where they are? And so that’s something I’ve certainly been thinking about a lot and challenging myself with quite a bit.
Sarah Noll Wilson (44:40)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Teresa Peterson (44:54)
So that, I wanted to make sure we named that because it was a significant moment, I think for you and me in that conversation too.
Sarah Noll Wilson (45:00)
Yeah, yeah. you know, we had a this episode is going to come out later. But I was in conversation with two practitioners, Maddie and Lauren, Maddie Gabor and Lauren Yee. And it’s like, what does it look like to give a generous
Teresa Peterson (45:20)
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson (45:21)
you know, like, what does it look like to give grace and generosity? And, and that point of and I’ll say this, one of the biggest ahas in spending, I don’t know, last decade or so thinking about this stuff, testing it experimenting, trying to push myself helping others, you know, move from that fearful avoidance into more courageous conversations.
Teresa Peterson (45:39)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (45:50)
is that it truly the the power is in the receiver.
Teresa Peterson (45:57)
Mmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (45:59)
and it’s exactly to your point. If you want to hear what the person says, it doesn’t matter how messy it is.
it might not be easy, you might have to navigate it. And that reminds me again, we quote Gottman a lot because they’ve just they’re the foremost authority on relationships. And they’ve got, you know, 40 years of experience of data that’s incredibly robust. And one of the things they have found is that now this is with romantic relationships, but we certainly see it play out in the workplace is that when a relationship has an erosion or regrettable event,
Teresa Peterson (46:09)
Right. Yep.
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (46:37)
the thing that sets up the repair for success most effectively isn’t the strategy or tactic the person uses who starts the repair, it’s how much trust did they have to begin with before the eroding event. And so, you know, if if if there was a part two, or maybe when I shouldn’t say if when, you know, and especially when you have that formal authority, whether or informal authority, that informal power, formal power.
What role, how you show up in that moment.
sets such an important tone for how safe it is for somebody to share something really like hard with you. And maybe they don’t share the real hard thing first. But if you’re able to show up with intellectual humility, if you’re able to consider try it on, you know, like, see how might it be true? How might it be true for them? Even if it’s not, you know, like your experience? How is there, you know, how has it been true for for them and their experience that
Teresa Peterson (47:15)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (47:39)
that goes so much further than getting the conversation perfectly right. I mean, perfectly right doesn’t exist, so you can’t. Yeah.
Teresa Peterson (47:44)
Yeah.
Well, a Hollywood movie. mean, like that. Yeah. Like and then music comes on. I mean, that’s what I always think is like we really want to see it end in some way or that there’s this, you know, really beautiful, intentional back and forth or whatever. And some of the most productive ones in the end felt kind of clumsy all the way through. Right. Or like, I don’t know if I’m saying this right. Or, know, you’re you’re checking for understanding. You know, that would be a
Sarah Noll Wilson (48:09)
Yeah, yeah.
Teresa Peterson (48:16)
ridiculous movie scene to watch, right? Because it would be like, let me call a timeout. When you say this word, what does that word mean to you right now? And so it can feel, you know, and I say lovingly a little clumsy, but like, that’s how it can feel in my brain. And I think that word resonates with other people of there is, you know, it, it’s a little bit mushy, you know, we’re getting our hands dirty because we care so much about it. I mean, I would every day of the week,
Sarah Noll Wilson (48:22)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Teresa Peterson (48:44)
have a challenging conversation where the hearts and minds are in, and it might be clumsy, than a very sterile textbook executed conversation that you don’t really. Because I think part of the beauty of going in and getting a little messy and clumsy during it is you. here it is, Sarah. What we say all the time, understanding must be earned by the learner.
Sarah Noll Wilson (48:49)
Mm. Mm. Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Give it to us, Teresa, bring us home.
Yeah.
Teresa Peterson (49:13)
And I think there’s an overlay here that for us to come out on the other side, even of a challenging conversation with more understanding about ourselves, one another and the dilemma than we had before, you have to do the work in that moment. When people think about help me properly deliver this very sterile, emotionless conversation. No, that isn’t how we do our best work. That isn’t how we learn.
might there be an egregious moment where that actually is the best approach? 100%. But we’re talking about the majority of conversations where you want to come out better on the other side, ideally better for the long term, but certainly better in the foreseeable future because you’ve tinkered with it, right? And so that’s what continues to honestly be inspiring to me is
Sarah Noll Wilson (49:46)
Yeah, yeah, yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Teresa Peterson (50:11)
is freeing ourselves and others from this very prescriptive idea and really stepping into the creation, stepping into the messiness of real people with real feelings and ideas coming together to talk about something tricky and leaving it better than they started, even if they’re a little bruised, even if it doesn’t feel great yet, but we got to a different place than we started.
Sarah Noll Wilson (50:19)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, well said. There was a part of my brain that was like, real people living in a real house and thinking of real world the MTV. Sorry, my brain was like, which is not that is not at all what we’re talking about. but I love the first season and the second season. Okay, but but that point.
Teresa Peterson (50:53)
I loved the real world growing up. yeah, Seattle. That was about the end of mine. Seattle. For any of the Gen Xers, you want to message us about that later, please feel free.
Sarah Noll Wilson (51:08)
Yeah, no, but but that I really appreciate that language of if our both of our hearts are in it. And, and, and we care enough to kind of try to get it right. And, and, and it’s not it.
Teresa Peterson (51:19)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson (51:35)
depending on the situation, it might not be resolved. It might just be named. And maybe that’s what’s necessary is to name it. You know, when we think about repairing relationships, we might not, you know, I love that definition that repair may not include resolving the issue, it’s getting the relationship back on track to move forward.
Teresa Peterson (51:40)
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (52:02)
And and that’s a reframe, especially, you know, in the work environment where we approach things so tactically, transactionally, we want it to be done quickly. And, you know, and something that some of our listeners, if you listened to the interview with Dr. Amy Edmondson, something we’ve been really chewing on since that conversation is this idea, or interview is this idea of high quality conversations. And
Teresa Peterson (52:29)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (52:32)
high quality conversations are, you know, as she described it, is one where we can speak our truths is where we listen and ask questions as much as we talk and that we are able to move forward in some way not necessarily solving it.
but we’re moving forward. And you know, the things we would add to it is that you’re willing to have your mind change, that you are able to practice some amount of sort of like conversational rigor. And when I say that, that’s not the perfectionism, it’s just intentionality. And you can regulate your emotions so that you can show up
Teresa Peterson (53:02)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson (53:15)
as impactful as possible. And I’ll just say this, you know, the thing that has
For me, I’ve been on this journey since 2008. And intellectually, I understood the value of being able to have these conversations. Intellectually at the time, I understood the value of why that would set a team up for success, to being able to have hard conversations. But I feel like it’s only been in the last five…
four to five years, as I’m surrounded by more people, as more people in my life are really working on this, as we’ve done the work with clients and really gotten into it, that I see what’s, what’s really possible is like unbelievable connection. Space to let down your
Teresa Peterson (54:01)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (54:17)
you know, guard and be tender and vulnerable with each other. But also what’s possible is incredible innovation and creativity and and I honestly like there’s no going back for me.
Teresa Peterson (54:34)
Yeah, it’s fun to hear you say there’s no going back because that doesn’t feel like an option. That feels like don’t put the training wheels back on. I’m riding this bike. no. Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (54:40)
No.
Yeah, I don’t want that. It’s just like, and it’s not and and I think this is something we say a lot to people and is a good reminder for us to is it doesn’t always feel good.
Teresa Peterson (54:59)
No.
Sarah Noll Wilson (55:00)
Sometimes you’re risking things. Maybe you are risking an opportunity. Maybe you’re risking a relationship. Maybe you’re risking credibility. Maybe you’re risking and sometimes it might not work out. We’re not Pollyanna. We know that. We’ve experienced it. We’ve observed it. We’ve seen it. But when it does, watch out.
Teresa Peterson (55:13)
Mm-hmm. No.
I completely agree. And I think too, we have seen it play out personally and professionally where actually what we feared was the reality. But often there is so much less regret because it was like, at least it was clear to me that’s what was happening. you know what? Yeah, I ended up leaving that company, but I understood.
Sarah Noll Wilson (55:41)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Teresa Peterson (55:52)
that the values would just, it was just never gonna be a match, right? And so there can be your own resolution in that and only you and your individual situation know if or when that’s worth it. But I mean, the self-liberation angle is very real.
Sarah Noll Wilson (55:55)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
It is, it is very real. And it just came up today in a conversation with a client. And he said, I can I tested it out. And I was right. I was like, good. Now, you know, you know, it’s possible you were and you would have learned something. But now you really know. And now you can move forward with clarity, right? Conviction and courage and how you move forward with this relationship. Like, now, you know. Yeah.
Teresa Peterson (56:18)
Cool.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
I think that’s a good place to pause or like to name. We have many success stories where people come together and we have many success stories where. The reality of the situation is very clear now where you don’t have to wonder, you don’t have to ruminate, you don’t have to lose sleep or have an upset tummy.
Sarah Noll Wilson (56:51)
Yeah, yeah, that’s a great point.
Yeah.
Teresa Peterson (57:08)
Because you might not have heard what you were hoping to hear. You might have heard the exact thing. You’re like, I think this is and now you know, and your brain can switch into a very different mode with that certainty. Uncertainty is draining on your mind, on your body, on your whole spirit. The certainty, although unpleasant. You know, I would rather know the rules of the game every day than then try to.
Sarah Noll Wilson (57:15)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Teresa Peterson (57:37)
figure out what it is I’m playing, right? And so there’s something liberating in that, even when it’s the exact opposite of what we were hoping for, I feel like.
Sarah Noll Wilson (57:39)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Well said. That feels like a great place to wrap up.
Teresa Peterson (57:50)
There it is.
Sarah Noll Wilson (57:51)
There it is. So for people who are listening, we would love for you to check out the workbook, you can go to the leader campus.com. That’s our online platform. Obviously, you can go to the website, sarah noll wilson dot com but the leader campus dot com and you have access to the interactive workbooks. There’s also a book study that Teresa and I are running separately next year to do a deeper dive in and we would love to hear from you. What did you learn as you’ve been doing this reflection? What came up for you? What are things we should
to think about as we continue this work. And you know, and, and, and if you have questions, you can always reach out to us. So in the spirit of sort of wrapping it up, Teresa, hang out while I do the close, we’re gonna, we’re just gonna do this live, Nick. He’s like, okay. Well, first, Teresa, I mean, getting to work with you getting to collaborate with you getting to create with you getting to be pushed by you.
honestly has been the one of the greatest gifts of my life and
Teresa Peterson (58:55)
if you’re not watching, I’m having mist Thank you. Ditto.
Sarah Noll Wilson (59:00)
It really has. And, and I’m so proud of the work we’re doing and the willingness to recognize there’s still so much work for us to do. Not not with other people, but for ourselves in this journey. And so it’s fun to it’s also fun for people for me to have people see the Teresa I know. Coming forward. So thanks for coming on the show and letting chat GPT interview us with two questions.
Teresa Peterson (59:10)
yeah. Yep.
Hmm. Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson (59:29)
Why did we think we didn’t know what to say? That was hilarious. Nick’s like, that’s funny that you all weren’t sure what to
Okay, with that, my friends, that concludes this week’s episode of conversations on conversations. Big thank you to you, Teresa. As always, our friends, if there are things that come up for you that you’re curious about that have become clear for you, you want to share with us, you can send us an email at podcast at sarah noll wilson dot com Again, that’s podcast at sarah noll wilson dot com and read and respond to each of those. And if you want to support the show, there’s two ways you can do it. The first
is be sure to rate, review, and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us to be able to gain exposure, continue to do the work we’re doing, and have great conversations like the one today. And if you want to support the team that makes this show possible, consider becoming a patron. You can go to patreon dot com slash conversations on conversations, where your financial support supports the team that makes this show. Speaking of the team, let’s talk about them and give them some love. So to our producer Nick Wilson, to our Sound
Editor Drew Noll, transcriptionist Becky Reinhart, our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg, and the rest of the SnowCo crew. Thank you. Dr. Teresa Peterson, thanks for being on the show. Yeah, we’ll just, I mean, you’ll be on again. This’ll, this’ll happen again. All right, my friends, that concludes this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations. Thank you so much for showing up for us, for showing up for your team, and for showing up for you.
Teresa Peterson (1:00:46)
Always a pleasure.
Sarah Noll Wilson (1:01:02)
And remember when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So till next time, please be sure to rest and rehydrate and we’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.