Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Vanessa McNeal as they explore the role of emotions in personal and professional growth, sharing insights on how expressing feelings can unlock greater fulfillment and productivity.
ABOUT
Vanessa McNeal is a nationally acclaimed Speaker, Life Coach, and Award-Winning Documentary Filmmaker. With a Master’s Degree in Social Work, Vanessa is a leading voice on topics of well-being, leadership development, and fostering a culture of belonging and care in the workplace and beyond. Her impactful presentations have resonated with audiences ranging from women’s empowerment events and university lecture halls to prestigious military institutions such as the National Guard and Air Force.
Vanessa’s mission is to inspire and ignite positive change, empowering individuals and organizations to reach their highest potential. Vanessa’s dedication and influence have earned her numerous accolades, including the Inspiring Women of Iowa Award and the Statement Maker Award, highlighting her as a transformative force in the field of personal and professional development.
SHOW NOTES
- Website: www.vanessamcneal.com
- Email: info@vanessamcneal.com
TRANSCRIPT
00:00:00:23 – 00:00:27:04
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to Conversations on Conversations, where we explore topics to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, and joining me today, my friends, is, somebody who I’ve been a long time listener of and a new time friend, Vanessa McNeal. Let me tell you a little bit about Vanessa before we get into our conversation.
00:00:27:07 – 00:00:54:17
Sarah Noll Wilson
She is a nationally acclaimed speaker, life coach, an award winning documentary filmmaker with a master’s degree in social work. Vanessa is a leading voice on topics of wellbeing, leadership development and fostering a culture of belonging and care in the workplace and beyond. Her impactful presentations have resonated with audiences, ranging from women’s empowerment events and university lecture halls to prestigious military institutions such as the National Guard and the Air Force.
00:00:54:19 – 00:01:18:12
Sarah Noll Wilson
Vanessa’s mission is to inspire and ignite positive change, empowering individuals and organizations to reach their highest potential. Her dedication and influence has earned her numerous accolades, including the Inspiring Women of Iowa Award and the Statement Maker Award, highlighting her as a transformative force in the field of personal and professional development. Vanessa, welcome to the show.
00:01:18:13 – 00:01:20:10
Vanessa McNeal
Thanks for having me.
00:01:20:12 – 00:01:37:23
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m so excited because we’ve only recently been able to connect in a deeper way. So I feel like people just get to listen to us learning more about each other. But okay, before we get into, you know, where we’re going to start this conversation, what else do you want us to know about you?
00:01:37:25 – 00:01:59:13
Vanessa McNeal
Oh, that’s such a great question. I’m really passionate about bringing topics that I think are seen as maybe more professional, or maybe more personal than professional, and getting people to see the value and how understanding the mind and the emotion is critical for growth and performance in the workplace.
00:01:59:15 – 00:02:19:28
Sarah Noll Wilson
What was your what was your journey? I mean, you have such a varied background and as people learn more about your work, as they check out your website and see more about the journey that you’ve taken. What’s been your path to this point to start to connect the how do we bring the emotions? I mean, well, let me let me restate that.
00:02:19:29 – 00:02:32:11
Sarah Noll Wilson
The emotions are already in the workplace already. Yeah, they’re already there. But how do we how do we help people see and understand them and navigate them more effectively? What was that path for you.
00:02:32:13 – 00:02:53:03
Vanessa McNeal
Yeah. So I like you had mentioned very varied past and I started out, I got my masters in Social Work and a lot of people in my cohort wanted to become therapists, and I thought that that was really great. But I wanted to do more macro level change work in. And that to me at that time look like speaking, getting on stages and impacting as many people as possible.
00:02:53:03 – 00:03:14:22
Vanessa McNeal
And at the time, I was speaking more about my personal story, overcoming adversity. And I traveled the country doing that, and I had this really big change in myself. And for mothers, listening can resonate with this is, in 2020, I became a mother and I really shifted in the work that I was doing. A lot of the work that I was doing at that time was about adversity.
00:03:14:22 – 00:03:36:01
Vanessa McNeal
And I remember hearing a quote that said, if you invite me to an anti-war rally, I won’t be there. But if you invite me to a peace rally, I’m coming. And I remember looking at my work differently, and I was thinking, I know that my intention is very great in terms of creating these really big conversations about adversity and trauma, these really big stories that I was telling.
00:03:36:01 – 00:03:59:06
Vanessa McNeal
But I was leaving stages with this, like negative dark energy. And so I asked myself the question, how do I want to use my energy in a way that’s going to give people the tools to look at themselves in their life differently, so they can go out and leave these audiences that I’m in feeling greater about themselves, their relationships, their workplace.
00:03:59:09 – 00:04:27:21
Vanessa McNeal
And that birthed the work that I’m doing now. And I had this really awesome conversation with my wildly intelligent toddler. And, he is really into, he’s really into this preschool teacher, on YouTube. And she always talks about how feelings come and go. And I remember him asking me, have feelings come and go? Where do they go to?
00:04:27:23 – 00:04:30:25
Vanessa McNeal
And I remember at the time being like.
00:04:30:27 – 00:04:35:21
Vanessa McNeal
I have to find a really good answer to that question. And then this work.
00:04:35:23 – 00:05:16:01
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that so much. And now I’m going to be pondering where sometimes it goes to the body. So yeah, it goes between a relationship sometimes or hey, like there’s a couple of things that are coming up for me. Right? Okay. So we, we know in our work that a lot of times this idea of talking about emotions, of talking about, not necessarily self awareness, because I think there has been this movement to say you’ll be more productive if you’re self-aware.
00:05:16:01 – 00:05:16:23
Sarah Noll Wilson
So it’s taken this
00:05:16:25 – 00:05:18:12
Sarah Noll Wilson
very.
00:05:18:15 – 00:05:38:24
Sarah Noll Wilson
For lack of a better way of saying a capitalist approach. Yeah. Awareness. What do you feel from your experience people get wrong or misinterpret or miss around this idea of emotions and like and in the workplace.
00:05:38:27 – 00:06:01:22
Vanessa McNeal
Oh yeah, that’s a great question. I would say the biggest misconception is that there is a complete difference between feeling something and expressing it, and going back to that question that way. So ask me if feelings come and go, where do they go to? Well, in most people they’re stuck. You know, for thinking of workplace example. I’m really upset with my manager.
00:06:01:22 – 00:06:20:01
Vanessa McNeal
I’m really upset with my leader because they didn’t care for me. And in a way, I’m feeling that I go home, I take it to. I take it home with me. My husband feels it. I go back to work and I take that with me, but I’m not expressing it. So it’s stuck in me. And that’s why, kind of go into going into the neuroscience.
00:06:20:01 – 00:06:45:19
Vanessa McNeal
I’m in dorsal mode. I have all this energy with nowhere to go because I’m not expressing it. So now I have a drained mood. Now I’m feeling low energy. My performance and my performance is dipping because now I’m in survival mode. So I think that that’s the biggest misconception is that there’s that feeling is somehow the same as expressing completely different.
00:06:45:21 – 00:07:11:07
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh. That is such a gift. I’ve never heard it positioned like that. And immediately I was thinking, oh, I can already see the slide with your face quoting you on that. And that idea of being stuck and how exhausting it is and how it. You know, a good friend of the show, T. Maxine Woods-Macmillan. We had a conversation last year about conflict.
00:07:11:07 – 00:07:39:20
Sarah Noll Wilson
And one of the things she shared, and I’ve quoted it multiple times is, you know, she said, Sarah, you keep talking about avoiding conflict like it just disappears. But it does. And so true. Positioned somewhere else. So I want to I want to go real micro on them. Break down the difference for people to better understand or to see their experience through feeling it versus expressing it.
00:07:39:22 – 00:08:05:18
Vanessa McNeal
Oh yeah. So micro would look like going back to that example with my manager, or a leader, I worked with a leader who was. Not good. Well, just just leave it there. And what that would feel for me every day was very much anxiety. It was racing thoughts. It was not being able to turn my mind off after work, bleeding into my home life.
00:08:05:21 – 00:08:32:03
Vanessa McNeal
And, it was just stuck here in my chest or in my mind. And so that was the feeling part. I it was very visceral to me, and it was outside of myself as well. And, just circulating, that energy around. But the expressing it would me would be like actually moving the energy and giving it the room to move, to breathe.
00:08:32:03 – 00:08:52:27
Vanessa McNeal
So that would look like crying. That would look like going on a walk and talking about it. That would look like actually making sounds. A one of my favorite questions as a coach to ask my clients is, what is the sound of your pain? What is the sound of your suffering? What is the sound of your anxiety? No words are needed for that, but I can just express through my sound.
00:08:52:29 – 00:09:05:08
Vanessa McNeal
And so that’s what the difference between that feeling and expressing is crying. And so that’s that. I would say that that’s a micro example of what it would look like.
00:09:05:11 – 00:09:08:07
Sarah Noll Wilson
I couldn’t I, I could just listen to you all day.
00:09:08:12 – 00:09:12:03
Vanessa McNeal
Oh thank you.
00:09:12:05 – 00:09:27:03
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m taking for people who are listening and wondering about the pause I was saying I wanted to capture. I wanted to capture that idea of of what? What sound or how did you say it? What sound is my pain making?
00:09:27:05 – 00:09:28:21
Vanessa McNeal
What is the sound of your pain?
00:09:28:24 – 00:10:00:26
Sarah Noll Wilson
Your pain, you know, and it’s it’s something I’m really passionate about is normalizing tears in the work because for lots of different reasons, crying has gotten a bad rap, right? It’s a sign of weakness. It’s, people often will apologize or they’ll say, well, I’m not a crier because there’s something terrible about about it. You know, I was just talking to a a friend of mine who’s who’s a gentleman, and he’s like, I had a really control my tears.
00:10:00:26 – 00:10:27:07
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m like, why? Why? You know, and so I, I love that. What’s the, when we only feel and we get stuck? I have ideas of what I’ve experienced personally. Yeah. And relationally and, you know, with my health. But. Yeah. What’s the impact when we stay in that stuck state?
00:10:27:09 – 00:10:59:07
Vanessa McNeal
So yeah, so many answers to this question. Dis ease in the body. Dysfunction dysregulation, the lack of performance piece. I there’s a study that talks about the cost of depression, which I believe is stuck energy. It’s like a multi-billion dollar loss for companies, because of their employees, that are struggling with that in relationships. It’s looking like divorce.
00:10:59:09 – 00:11:13:13
Vanessa McNeal
It’s looking like dysfunction and toxicity there because there’s not an expression. And I think, just, you know, the mental, emotional, spiritual, physical impact of not moving energy.
00:11:13:15 – 00:11:35:16
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. What is that? You know, for, for people who are listening, who may be thinking to themselves, this is I’ve never thought of this before in this way. I’m curious, you know, and you shared some of those examples of, right, allowing yourself space to cry, to process movement, going for a walk, maybe talking it out with somebody.
00:11:35:19 – 00:11:39:11
Sarah Noll Wilson
What would that look like in the workplace?
00:11:39:13 – 00:12:19:05
Vanessa McNeal
It would still look like expressing, to, to leaders about how you’re feeling or talking to HR, talking to a colleague and creating safety for yourself in the workplace. And of course, we would hope that organizations are creating safety as well, because that’s what’s needed as well to be able to feel like there’s room to express. But creating that for yourself, creating safety psychologically, and then being able to take some of that even outside of the workplace, going to therapy, going to work with a coach, talking to your, your, you know, team around you about what’s happening.
00:12:19:05 – 00:12:21:12
Vanessa McNeal
I think that that’s what that would look like.
00:12:21:14 – 00:12:28:24
Sarah Noll Wilson
Are there times are there times when, the way we’re choosing to express can actually keep us stuck?
00:12:28:26 – 00:12:30:22
Vanessa McNeal
Oh, that’s a really good question.
00:12:30:25 – 00:12:52:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
I you know, I’m thinking I’m thinking in terms of we know, right. When people are under stress, one of the first places we go to is sort of a flocking, you know, of, like, did you see that was am I crazy? Did this happen? You know, and sometimes, I know for myself anyway, there’s, there’s different expressions, serve different needs.
00:12:52:15 – 00:12:54:13
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I’m just curious to get your thoughts on.
00:12:54:13 – 00:13:27:16
Vanessa McNeal
That’s a brilliant question. I would say yes, in the sense that there are times that we will go into a loop. So I think of this in terms of, the low energy behaviors that we often associate our emotional, emotional patterns with overeating, not eating, not sleeping, working too much, working too little. Those are still ways that we’re expressing ourselves, that aren’t serving our highest good.
00:13:27:18 – 00:13:48:11
Vanessa McNeal
And there’s always a reason for our behavior as well. So I don’t want people to listen to this and say, oh, that’s really bad because I do that. It’s just the way that you know how to cope with what you’re dealing with. And I always kind of go back to like the value of pain or the value of suffering or the value of going through these hard things is to convert that into something different.
00:13:48:13 – 00:13:58:14
Vanessa McNeal
And when we’re not doing that, that’s when we stay in that loop. So yes, there are ways that we can express in ways that don’t serve our highest good.
00:13:58:16 – 00:14:06:05
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. What I want you to tease out that whole the value of pain and suffering.
00:14:06:08 – 00:14:29:23
Vanessa McNeal
Yeah. Yeah. I really believe that, as, as a society, as a culture maybe globally as well. We’ve lost our tie to humanity in a way. It reminded me of a conversation I had with my son. All roads point back to my son.
00:14:29:25 – 00:14:30:25
Sarah Noll Wilson
00:14:30:27 – 00:14:36:00
Vanessa McNeal
I picked him up from school the other day. The first thing that I asked him was, did you have a happy day? And I.
00:14:36:03 – 00:14:37:29
Sarah Noll Wilson
I was going to make you tell this I was going to.
00:14:38:00 – 00:14:39:06
Vanessa McNeal
It’s so good, right?
00:14:39:06 – 00:14:40:14
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s such a good story.
00:14:40:20 – 00:15:04:18
Vanessa McNeal
It’s so good. And it and it does answer this question. I picked him up from school and I said, did you have a happy day? And I stopped myself instantly because I was like, there are so many messages that I’m giving to him indirectly that say that happiness is a standard of living and that’s not the case. And I know that that is what I’m teaching him.
00:15:04:18 – 00:15:26:00
Vanessa McNeal
Because if he said no, I didn’t have a good day, I would say, oh no, what happened? Oftentimes when you go, you know, you go home from work or maybe you’re even talking to your boss. I had a really bad day. Oh, no. What’s wrong? Well, nothing’s wrong. I’m having a human experience, and I am. And sharing with you the fullness of that experience.
00:15:26:00 – 00:15:54:04
Vanessa McNeal
But we have given, anything other happiness or anything other than joy. Like a derogatory mark, somehow. And that’s not the truth. And so the value of pain is us being able to be authentic with those experiences. Because the pain, the sadness, the anger, the irritation, whatever it is that we’re feeling that’s not happy is a signal that we’re out of alignment somewhere.
00:15:54:07 – 00:16:21:22
Vanessa McNeal
Anger is probably telling us there’s an injustice that we’re experiencing at home or at work. It’s not bad. It’s it’s a signal. Sadness is not bad. It’s a signal. It’s telling us, hey, there’s a misalignment somewhere, and I feel like I’m not being heard. I feel like I’m not being seen. I feel like I’m not being loved. And so that’s the value of pain is to take that and to do something different so that you don’t stay in sad or stuck or anger or whatever it is.
00:16:21:25 – 00:16:42:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. I, I love that it’s, you know, it’s just a it’s a signal. It’s a signal for us to check in with ourselves. It’s a signal for us to maybe check in with a relationship or a situation. Maybe it’s the stories we’re telling ourselves, maybe it’s assumptions we’re making. But also, there’s some likely some truth to it.
00:16:42:27 – 00:17:10:13
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. You know, when you’re talking about, this and this is a topic we’ve definitely have explored on the show before, again, particularly from an American culture, there is this absolute hierarchy that has been created around what emotions are good and, and, and and so here’s what I’m curious about. You said, you know, and I see it too.
00:17:10:14 – 00:17:31:29
Sarah Noll Wilson
We’ve lost this tie to our humanity. And then the question came up for me, for myself. And I’m curious to hear you think about it. How do you define humanity like our humanity? I mean, that’s a big question, but it’s it’s a phrase that we use. It’s a phrase. It’s a, it’s a or it’s language we use.
00:17:32:02 – 00:17:44:22
Sarah Noll Wilson
And there is something about and how you were talking that I had this moment of, and what does that actually mean? Being disconnected from our humanity.
00:17:44:24 – 00:18:24:11
Vanessa McNeal
I would say that it’s being disconnected from the fullness of who we are. Like, we’ve really compartmentalized ourselves, into parts, which is like such a segue. The parts were two, but we were detached from so many aspects of ourselves because maybe we were told that it was too much, or maybe it wasn’t enough. So we’ve hyper focused on these areas of our lives and, because we have disconnected from those parts of ourselves, we’re also disconnecting from those parts and other people because everyone is just a mirror to us.
00:18:24:13 – 00:18:30:07
Vanessa McNeal
And so there’s just an overall disconnection.
00:18:30:09 – 00:18:42:23
Sarah Noll Wilson
I, I just want to like, chew on everything that you’re sharing and take a moment to take it in. And there’s such there’s there’s so much sadness when you think about that.
00:18:42:26 – 00:18:43:29
Vanessa McNeal
Oh yeah.
00:18:44:02 – 00:19:16:26
Sarah Noll Wilson
And and again, something that we’ve explored with different people and different, topics of. Right. If it’s the, the rules of gender, if it’s the rules of identity, if it’s the rules of the role, if it’s, you know, I mean, I’m even smiling a little bit for people who are listening to this. I’m currently wearing a pink sweater with a bunch of birds on it, and, and I say this not to be like, look at this cool sweater and make it about me.
00:19:16:26 – 00:19:37:26
Sarah Noll Wilson
But for the longest time, that was a part of myself that I was completely disconnected by because I was told by people, people won’t take you seriously unless you wear a suit. Well, people won’t take you seriously unless you address X, Y, and Z and and and now I get to just embrace that wholeness. And that’s such a minor micro example that may not have huge cost.
00:19:37:27 – 00:19:38:25
Vanessa McNeal
Beautiful.
00:19:38:28 – 00:20:00:09
Sarah Noll Wilson
But there’s something symbolic about it in this moment that I was like, oh, if we would have been having this conversation a decade ago, this, this, I wouldn’t be showing up in the Wholeness. So you let’s talk about parts work, because that is a concept that is, unfamiliar to me and likely familiar to folks. And it’s something I know that you’re very passionate about.
00:20:00:11 – 00:20:07:11
Sarah Noll Wilson
And as people are listening to you, you know, you can tell the insight and wisdom and the depth of your experience you bring.
00:20:07:11 – 00:20:08:27
Vanessa McNeal
So thank you. Yeah.
00:20:09:00 – 00:20:10:12
Sarah Noll Wilson
What is what is it?
00:20:10:15 – 00:20:37:11
Vanessa McNeal
So parts work. It was parts work was born out of internal family systems and, in the 80s. And it’s a tool that I use in my coaching sessions, in my workshops, and on stage is to help people understand, many layers and levels to who they are. Because if we can identify and understand our parts, that we can turn the value volume up on some of them and reduce the volume on the ones that aren’t serving our highest good.
00:20:37:14 – 00:21:10:17
Vanessa McNeal
So I like to use the example of a bus. Everybody is driving their own bus. You know, in a perfect world, our highest and best selves would be driving the bus, taking us to where we want to go. We, sadly, don’t live in a perfect world. We have many influences from the way that we were born, the childhood traumas that we go through, workplace traumas that we go through, and that, all encompassing higher self gets broken into different parts and it almost becomes fragmented.
00:21:10:19 – 00:21:34:13
Vanessa McNeal
So, if I took a peek into your bus, I would see many, many rows of different people, that had been broken into different parts. And the value of understanding part’s work is that some, all of these parts, they’re demonstrating a different aspect of you, and they have different behaviors. And this is completely different from split personality disorder.
00:21:34:19 – 00:22:09:08
Vanessa McNeal
So for those that are like, This is going, strange. It’s not that. Trust me. So parts work talks about how, I, talk about myself, for example. So I have, a childhood part that’s a people pleaser. She learned that she had to be a people pleaser for survival. She, was absolutely brilliant in her attempt to make the best conditions for herself. So she. I split myself into a different part so that I could drive the bus in that way, because it was serving my highest good at the time.
00:22:09:10 – 00:22:37:23
Vanessa McNeal
And and all of us are doing this in so many, so many ways. We also have parts that, that, come on, to drive and they go back. So the goal and the parts work that I talk about with my clients is to identify who’s on the bus, why are they there? And a lot of people have a lot of shame about some of their parts, and they don’t want people to know that that’s a part of them.
00:22:37:25 – 00:22:59:15
Vanessa McNeal
But the goal is to see, like, this was a brilliant aspect of you that showed up at a crucial time in your life where they didn’t know how to operate in any other way, and you can’t a lot of people are like, well, I just want to forget that part of me. I just want to forget that, you know, the version of me that got fired from my job, or the version of me that’s struggled with substance abuse or whatever that looks like for people.
00:22:59:18 – 00:23:23:17
Vanessa McNeal
And it’s about seeing that part with love and being like, I thank you for what you did. I value you, and I appreciate you for what you did. But you don’t get to drive the bus anymore. I do, my highest self does. And it’s about kind of re absorbing those parts back into the greater whole so that they’re, there’s wholeness and, a sense of integration.
00:23:23:20 – 00:23:50:26
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. It’s, I, I’ve experienced that work that’s, you know, my my therapist, she does the integrated family system sometimes. And there are times when she has to essentially remind me of, I feel like I’m talking to young Sarah. Oh, yeah, 43 year old Sarah, who knows a lot more. What would she tell her right. And what would that work look like?
00:23:50:26 – 00:24:06:06
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and and for some I would imagine, you know, I think about my own experience in doing that type of work to have just an incredible amount of compassion.
00:24:06:09 – 00:24:06:27
Vanessa McNeal
Oh, yeah.
00:24:07:00 – 00:24:13:13
Sarah Noll Wilson
For that, that part of you served you at some point.
00:24:13:15 – 00:24:14:10
Vanessa McNeal
Absolutely.
00:24:14:10 – 00:24:33:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, and it made sense and that there might be some grief and loss. And that can be all part of the complexity of the human experience. It’s, you know, what when you are doing this work with folks.
00:24:33:29 – 00:24:37:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
What are some of the things that often surprises people.
00:24:37:29 – 00:24:40:18
Vanessa McNeal
Oh, how simple it could be.
00:24:40:20 – 00:24:42:23
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:24:42:26 – 00:25:10:18
Vanessa McNeal
I really believe that. It’s like if we want to understand humankind there to, you know, primal forces that we’re working with, and it’s love and fear. And when people realize that they don’t have to feel shame about who they are, these parts, they can just love them instead. And that doesn’t mean give them full reign, but it means reintegrate them so that, like you said, the the highest wisdom of you is speaking and behaving.
00:25:10:21 – 00:25:33:11
Vanessa McNeal
Then, I think the pathway for healing for people comes a lot more clear, and it’s easier for people to recognize, oh, that’s not current. Me. That’s that’s me from back in the day when I was hurt and I wasn’t, wasn’t feeling safe. Yeah. And so that’s that’s the overarching feedback.
00:25:33:13 – 00:25:54:23
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s, when you start to pay attention to your world and the world around you through the lens of everything we do comes from a place of fear or love. It it it checks out, it maps. You know, I totally even even if we’re a little bit on autopilot.
00:25:54:26 – 00:25:55:27
Vanessa McNeal
Yes.
00:25:56:00 – 00:26:38:02
Sarah Noll Wilson
It maps. I have a, loving mentor, and he’s he’s always just like, fear, love. That’s it. Everything we’re doing is like. And so asking ourselves, what place are we coming from right now? How do we understand that. And and so even let’s then connect that back to the workplace. Because think about moments of when you’re showing up from a place of either fear or love, when your boss is showing up from a place of fear and love from your colleagues, right, who might feel threatened or overworked or and and not that it’s used to, excuse behavior.
00:26:38:04 – 00:26:38:28
Vanessa McNeal
Right?
00:26:39:00 – 00:26:53:04
Sarah Noll Wilson
It just helps you see it a little bit differently. And I, something I’ve been working on for myself is like. And how do I hold them? Just a little bit looser. Right? And I get so like, oh, you’re doing this, which is like, okay, I can, I can see the pain.
00:26:53:06 – 00:26:54:09
Vanessa McNeal
Right. Exactly.
00:26:54:10 – 00:26:59:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
It doesn’t mean I excuse the behavior, but it means that I can understand it a bit more.
00:26:59:03 – 00:27:08:21
Vanessa McNeal
Exactly. I think a different way to say it is, people are either doing things from love or for love. And I think when we’re thinking about the workplace.
00:27:08:21 – 00:27:12:20
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. No. Keep talking.
00:27:12:22 – 00:27:36:28
Vanessa McNeal
Thinking about the workplace. It’s so easy to understand how people are showing up and what they’re needing. If you look at people that way, they’re either doing things from a place of love or because they really need it. And I think, I want to caveat this because I think that people think that that’s a fluffy concept, and it’s really not because love is really fierce.
00:27:37:00 – 00:27:58:19
Vanessa McNeal
I think that that’s the part of love that people don’t talk about. Like. Like what? What is love in the workplace? Sometimes love is sitting people down and being like, hey, we’ve really had this talk and I’m not seeing any change from you. So the most loving thing that I can do for you, and maybe you don’t use the language of love, but in your in your mind, the most loving thing that you can do for them is let them go.
00:27:58:22 – 00:28:12:18
Vanessa McNeal
The most loving thing that you can do is take them maybe to a different team where they’re going to be more of service to. But that’s really love. And it’s fierce and it’s honest and it’s from a place of integrity. And it’s not this loose and fluffy concept.
00:28:12:19 – 00:28:49:08
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. From love or for love. I sort of, I think that’s an even more powerful reframing for me personally to think about it. And there was something that made me immediately very sad thinking about maybe, maybe people have experienced or support or work with. Now that can be easy to write off as, oh, they’re just difficult or they’re arrogant or they’re whatever the case may be.
00:28:49:10 – 00:29:04:05
Sarah Noll Wilson
But what if they’re just actually from a place of like they that they need some love and or they need support and validation and they want that connection and they want that sense of safety and they want that security.
00:29:04:07 – 00:29:26:00
Vanessa McNeal
Oh, yeah. I think the hard part about that, though, is that people don’t show that it’s not a soft aspect that you’re dealing with because people are putting on their self protective armor and their self-protective part is showing up and it’s saying it’s not safe here. So I’m going to be difficult. I’m going to challenge you. I’m not going to make conversations easy to have.
00:29:26:00 – 00:29:46:09
Vanessa McNeal
I’m not even going to feel open to you. I’m so I think when you’re looking at people, it’s like, I don’t think they want love. They seem pretty like, get away from me attitude, like energy. But it’s only because they don’t feel safe. Why would I show you the best of me? Why would I show you an open expressed me when I don’t feel safe.
00:29:46:12 – 00:30:11:23
Vanessa McNeal
Because maybe someone a long time ago told me or showed me that it wasn’t okay to do that. So now I have I. I’m the part that you’re seeing that I’m presenting myself as is very armored and closed off. So it just takes some work to be able to see people beyond the armor and the part that they’re showing up in.
00:30:11:25 – 00:30:14:22
Sarah Noll Wilson
Which is hard work on its own.
00:30:14:24 – 00:30:15:19
Vanessa McNeal
Yeah.
00:30:15:21 – 00:30:41:22
Sarah Noll Wilson
And then you add in, I’ve got 200 emails that are in my box, I have a bunch of fires to put out. We have to figure out I mean, this is this is part of the challenge of the human work in the workplace is there’s always something that’s pulling our attention and we’ve seen this firsthand. And when we do prioritize the human work, it makes the rest of the work so much easier.
00:30:42:00 – 00:30:43:21
Vanessa McNeal
Yeah, it does suffer.
00:30:43:27 – 00:31:13:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
There’s so much less, you know, and not that there’s not discomfort or conflict or pain, right. But sort of unnecessary suffering. When we can, when we can just see ourselves and see people differently, I can, I can hear some people going, but I’m not a therapist. Vanessa, you have a background in social work, and you can use obviously done a lot of work around trauma.
00:31:13:04 – 00:31:20:17
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I’m just trying to make sure that we make budget this month. And, and.
00:31:20:24 – 00:31:21:15
Vanessa McNeal
I get that.
00:31:21:15 – 00:31:33:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I’ve asked this question from a couple of other guests because it is something we hear a lot, but I’m not a therapist, like, I don’t I don’t need to get into their parts or I don’t need to get into the well, what would you what would you say to that manager?
00:31:33:02 – 00:31:41:22
Vanessa McNeal
That’s such a good question. You don’t have to be a therapist to do this work. I do know that for sure. And I think it. Start with yourself.
00:31:41:28 – 00:31:42:21
Sarah Noll Wilson
00:31:42:23 – 00:32:07:15
Vanessa McNeal
Because again, you’re a mirror for other people, and I know that the deeper that you can go to understand your own parts and your own impulses around love and fear, the easier it’s going to be for you to see that in other people and respond in a way that is loving and kind. I know that that answer sounds really fluffy, though, and I don’t necessarily like it, but I do know for sure that you don’t have to be a therapist to do it.
00:32:07:15 – 00:32:23:13
Vanessa McNeal
I think it’s about, again, being able to be authentic in the fullness of the human experience and being a safe place for people to experience that for themselves. Because if we did that more often, then I really believe the world would be a different place.
00:32:23:17 – 00:32:44:19
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, no, I completely agree with you. I mean, I, you know, for folks listening, think about the people you feel safest with. Think about the people you feel most comfortable with. Think about the people who you can share hard things with. More often than not, it’s likely because they’ve, done some amount of this work and can create the space for that.
00:32:44:21 – 00:32:56:07
Sarah Noll Wilson
You’ve you’ve mentioned a few times, in the course of our conversation about this idea of we’re a mirror for other people in their mirror for us. I want to hear you say more about that.
00:32:56:10 – 00:33:26:07
Vanessa McNeal
Yeah. So the way that I see that is that all of you exist and all of me, all of me exist in all of you. And so whenever I look at you and I think, wow, I really admire that about her, that’s only because there’s a part of me that has that potential as well. And when I look out and I judge someone for being too loud, it’s probably because there’s a part of me that’s afraid that I’m not loud enough, or that one time, a long time ago, I was told that I was too loud, and now I have shame around it.
00:33:26:10 – 00:33:49:12
Vanessa McNeal
There’s no aspect that you are demonstrating internally or externally that doesn’t exist somehow in me. So that’s the way that I see that. And that is in like the, the most joyful ways and also like your deepest, darkest shadows. I’m in there too. But we only like to present the good stuff, of course, but I’m all of that, all in there too.
00:33:49:18 – 00:34:08:15
Vanessa McNeal
And again, that goes back to the humanity, peace and being able to look at people differently and not, judge them in a certain way, because that judgment, again, is probably an unresolved judgment about myself.
00:34:08:18 – 00:34:15:17
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’ve just you just take over the show. I’m going to sit here like.
00:34:15:19 – 00:34:48:12
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s what a I unfortunately I think not unfortunately. You know, I’m not sure when this episode’s going to air, but for folks who are listening, we’re recording it, you know, near third quarter or three, three quarters way into September. It’s way more complicated than just saying it. And, and in America, we’re dealing with a lot of divisiveness, a lot of challenges, a lot of assumptions, a lot of judgments, a lot of criticisms related to the political campaign.
00:34:48:14 – 00:35:12:20
Sarah Noll Wilson
And there’s a part of me that’s like, let’s, let’s air this sooner so people can reflect on and go, so what part of that is, giving you, insight into needs, insight into your values, insight into unmet needs. You know, that’s that’s a concept I wish we talked about more, not just at work, but just in our relationships.
00:35:12:20 – 00:35:28:05
Sarah Noll Wilson
So, yeah, how we’re all just I feel like we’re just all five year olds walking around with, you know, just wanting to be safe and have our needs met and exactly what seems so simple. But there is there’s some truth to that.
00:35:28:07 – 00:35:30:08
Vanessa McNeal
Absolutely.
00:35:30:10 – 00:36:07:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
What? What questions would you invite people who are listening to reflect on? Or what questions would you hope that people would ask themselves more? Both from a standpoint of, for them themselves, their own self-reflection, their own self-awareness? And what questions would you want people to be asking related to their, experience with other people.
00:36:07:02 – 00:36:43:04
Vanessa McNeal
Who are such good questions? I think the first one that showed up was. If there wasn’t so much fear present either at home or at work, how would you show up differently? And if you were able to identify that part, ask what that part needs in order to not show up with so much fear. I think that that in asking, you know, going back to the workplace or, or really anyone in your life, what do you need to not feel?
00:36:43:07 – 00:36:44:06
Sarah Noll Wilson
00:36:46:07 – 00:37:16:27
Vanessa McNeal
So nervous or so scared or so tense at your job or, for this, you know, project that’s going out? Because to your point, there are unmet needs in there that we’re not giving ourselves or each other the space to be able to resolve. I think that those are good starting points, but I think that if, it’s not so much a question, but maybe some, some guardrails for starting out with this work.
00:37:16:29 – 00:37:28:25
Vanessa McNeal
The easiest place for you to find your part that probably needs the most work is, thinking of the times where you’re most afraid, or most anxious, or most scared, or maybe mad.
00:37:28:27 – 00:37:29:14
Sarah Noll Wilson
00:37:29:16 – 00:37:50:03
Vanessa McNeal
That there will give you some guardrails to understand. Like where their parts there that have some unexpressed pain and why, the window of tolerance is so small that almost anything could set it off. And then kind of going back to those questions, okay, what do you need to feel more safe? What do you need to not feel so much fear?
00:37:50:03 – 00:37:58:05
Vanessa McNeal
What do you need to, and not just feel but go from feeling to expressing? Yeah. Those are big questions.
00:37:58:06 – 00:38:23:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. They are. And, and they’re really powerful questions, and I. And they’re incredibly vulnerable. Because again, going back to, the rules, we’ve been told for some people, depending on who they are or where they grew up or what they look like, the idea of admitting that you’re afraid is pretty damn vulnerable.
00:38:23:17 – 00:38:24:09
Vanessa McNeal
Absolutely.
00:38:24:09 – 00:38:50:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
Even the act of saying I’m afraid likely causes a ton of fear. Right? Like, and it’s, you know, fear about even expressing the fear. What? You’ve you’ve spoken to this. I’m just curious to hear you articulate it. Now that people have been on this journey. What is possible? Oh.
00:38:51:00 – 00:38:51:21
Vanessa McNeal
Yeah.
00:38:51:23 – 00:39:16:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
When we’re able to reconnect with our beautiful complexity as humans, when we’re able to, really see ourselves through the lens of of of what? What we need. The love we want, the love we want to give. Just all of this. What what do you see as possible?
00:39:16:02 – 00:39:45:12
Vanessa McNeal
So much space? Because when I think about all of the energy that each one of us carry every single day subconsciously, or maybe even a little bit consciously about the things that that a stuck energy, again, what is possible is more life, more life, higher performance at work, making more money, the ability to connect to deeper, and more meaningful with people because there’s more space.
00:39:45:12 – 00:40:15:18
Vanessa McNeal
That energy isn’t taken up by all of these back end programs and conditioning, because it’s been expressed. So I think that that’s why workplaces need this work, because we can’t just turn off human when we go in to our jobs. And, and some people might say, well, is that my responsibility? Maybe. Maybe not. But it’s in your best interest because your your employees are going to show up and they’re going to be happier.
00:40:15:18 – 00:40:37:15
Vanessa McNeal
What happens when people are happier? What happens when people are more fulfilled? What happens when they’re healthier? Mind, body and spirit. There’s so much goodness that can come from that. And overall, if we zoom that perspective out, probably get along a little bit better. And we probably wouldn’t be as sick as we are as a nation.
00:40:37:17 – 00:40:41:02
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, man. Yeah. Say that again.
00:40:41:04 – 00:40:43:05
Vanessa McNeal
Yeah,
00:40:43:07 – 00:41:06:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
but I could, I could just keep talking to you all day. So we’ll just have you back on the show. We’ll just do that. I’m I there’s there’s so much beautiful insight that you’ve shared that I feel like I just want to, like, let’s let’s wind down the train a bit so people can sit with all of the insights that you’ve shared.
00:41:06:18 – 00:41:23:04
Sarah Noll Wilson
Since you’re a first time guest on our show, I do want to ask you the question we ask all of our first time guests. You know, in the spirit of the show being about the conversations we have with ourselves and others, what was a conversation you had with yourself or someone else that was transformative?
00:41:23:06 – 00:41:32:01
Vanessa McNeal
Yes. That’s such a beautiful question. I was going to share the story about E.J. but I shared it earlier. So let me think of a different one.
00:41:32:01 – 00:41:32:19
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s a hell of a one.
00:41:32:19 – 00:41:34:19
Vanessa McNeal
Oh yeah, I know. Right.
00:41:34:22 – 00:41:38:06
Sarah Noll Wilson
Where do emotions go. I just immediately thought, that’s the title of a book
00:41:38:07 – 00:41:40:09
Vanessa McNeal
I know. Right.
00:41:40:12 – 00:42:04:20
Vanessa McNeal
Another one is it was what the coaching client recently. And I think men are interesting in this conversation, about all of this because I think that they have the least space to have these conversations be a part of these conversations. Yet I had this really, incredible coaching client kind of bare his soul, on this call.
00:42:04:23 – 00:42:27:25
Vanessa McNeal
And I remember him saying, I feel like at the end of our session, I feel like you took the weight of the world. I feel like you took the weight of the world off of my shoulders. And the question that I asked him after that was, well, who do you normally share it with? And he said, no one, not even not even my family.
00:42:27:27 – 00:42:56:05
Vanessa McNeal
And I think it’s something, maybe not just for men, but maybe for all of us. We’re carrying the weight of the world on our shoulders, and we’re, internalizing a lot of our life. And we’re doing it quietly and silently, and there’s a lot of silent suffering that’s happening. And so that was a just a really big eye opening conversation for me to have with him around what it looks like to, you know, going back to the feeling and express.
00:42:56:05 – 00:43:10:15
Vanessa McNeal
And he had felt a lot, but he hadn’t expressed it and how differently that he felt. And it was the weight of the world was how heavy it was for him and how beautiful he felt after having a safe space to dissolve that somewhere.
00:43:10:21 – 00:43:35:09
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. It’s, I that’s a the topic around gender. Like masculinity and men and intimacy that we’ve explored with a number of really amazing guest. And it is just this normal pattern for a lot of men to just internalize this. I lock it in the trap I write. I’ve had clients who have said, Sarah, I don’t feel anything from the neck down.
00:43:35:12 – 00:44:06:09
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m like, man, how? How exhausting must that feel to. Yes, you know, to, to to exist and something that what I love about that story, too, and this is something that is just continually becoming a passion for me is how how do we all just continue to work to be the person that somebody can share the hard things with, that we don’t shame that we don’t try to fix that.
00:44:06:09 – 00:44:27:10
Sarah Noll Wilson
We don’t try to, that’s just such a gift we can give each other. And you don’t have to be a therapist or a certified coach or. Right. I mean, obviously, we’ve learned those tools to make it easier for us to show up in that way. But these are the ways of being we can all show up and imagine.
00:44:27:12 – 00:45:00:12
Sarah Noll Wilson
Imagine if just once throughout your day, you created the space to lift the weight of the world off of someone else’s shoulder. What the hell would be possible? I mean, exactly all about that. I loved you before this call, and I, Vanessa. I’m sort of at a loss of words. Partly because something about. I’m getting a little misty about thinking about this.
00:45:00:14 – 00:45:34:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
There is this really effective way you have to to make things so simple and yet so powerful, and you have this way of being able to cut through the noise that I really appreciate. And in the spirit of reflecting, it’s because it’s something that I always am working on is how do I how do I connect people to the heart in a way that they don’t shy away from it?
00:45:34:15 – 00:46:11:08
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I just I think you’re so skillful at that. Thank you so I know people are listening. Yeah. I mean, I mean that genuinely I think, you know, Nick and I are going to get off this call and be like, wasn’t she just amazing? So I just give you your flowers. For people who want to work with you as a coach, people who want to attend your workshops, for people who want to hire you to come in and speak, for people who want you to come in and do teamwork with them, what is the best way for people to connect with you and to follow your work?
00:46:11:11 – 00:46:26:29
Vanessa McNeal
Yeah. So, for speaking and coaching. Vanessa McNeal dot com has all of that information. I do one on one coaching. I also do internal coaching as well for organizations. And then, just email me for the workshops. It’s info at Vanessa McNeal dot com.
00:46:27:01 – 00:46:41:26
Sarah Noll Wilson
Awesome. And we’ll put all of that information in the show notes so people can connect with you. And I highly recommend friends that you not only connect with her, but you hire Vanessa and bring her into your teams. Vanessa, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
00:46:41:27 – 00:46:43:27
Vanessa McNeal
Thanks for having me.
00:46:44:00 – 00:47:15:16
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been Vanessa McNeal. And boy, am I going to be processing this conversation for a while. The point that she made about how we get stuck when we feel emotions but we don’t express it. I just have never heard something explained so simply as that. And there’s just so many other things. People are either behaving from a place of coming from love, or for love is just such a beautiful lens to view the world.
00:47:15:18 – 00:47:34:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
We always love to hear from you. We love to hear what resonated, what came up for you. You can always send us notes at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. Again, that’s podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com where I read and respond to each of the letters that we hear from you. And if you want to support the show, there’s two ways you can do it.
00:47:34:00 – 00:47:55:05
Sarah Noll Wilson
First is, if you haven’t already, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This allows us to be able to increase our exposure so we can continue to have amazing conversations like the one we did today, and we have a team that makes this show possible. And if you would like to support them, consider becoming a patron.
00:47:55:09 – 00:48:27:26
Sarah Noll Wilson
You could go to Patreon dot com slash conversations on conversations where your financial support goes to support the team that makes this show possible. Not only do you get early episodes, but you get ad free episodes and you get some pretty cool podcast swag from us that you can only get through being a patron. Speaking of the team, let’s give them some love to our Producer, Nick Wilson, to our Sound Editor Journal, to our transcriptionist, Becky Reinert, and to our marketing consultant, Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNOWCO crew.
00:48:28:00 – 00:48:52:01
Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you. And just a final thank you to Vanessa McNeal for coming on the show, for sharing her insights and helping us all think differently about how we show up in this world. Well my friends, that concludes this week’s episode of Conversations on conversations and remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, I do believe we can change the world.
00:48:52:02 – 00:48:59:09
Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you for your time. Thank you for showing up. Until next time, please be sure to rest, rehydrate and I’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.