Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guests Lauren Yee and Maddy Gabor as they explore neurodivergence in the workplace. Together, they discuss how play, curiosity, and clear communication can transform team dynamics and create inclusive spaces for everyone to thrive.
ABOUT
Lauren Yee and Maddy Gabor are co-founders of Betterment Works, a playful professional development company on a mission to strengthen businesses and teams by helping people feel, connect, and do better at work.
Lauren is a process-driven problem solver who believes that curiosity, consistency, and connections are the greatest drivers of great things. She is also an extroverted Hufflepuff who loves puzzles, pizza, and fun questions! She studied design and psychology, has been managing people, projects, and clients since 2005, and previously helped grow the largest LEGO-inspired learning through play company in the United States.
Her experience from a decade of working with kids, informs her perspective and focus on how play, curiosity, and inclusion can improve productivity, innovation, teamwork, and leadership.
Maddy is an impact-obsessed, life-long learner with a passion for leadership, data, and play. As a neurodivergent executive, she is well-versed in the struggles of focus, productivity, time management, and leadership; and her facilitation and content are informed by that experience. Driven by a dedication to understanding and an unending belief in human betterment, Maddy envisions more empowering, engaging, and compassionate workplaces for all. Using play and analytics as the tools and her values as the compass, she pursues this vision relentlessly.
An expert in the practical applications of learning through play, Maddy facilitates playful professional development and consults on organizational betterment projects.
SHOW NOTES
- Website: www.bettermentworks.com
- Lauren Email: Lauren@bettermentworks.com
- Maddy Email: Maddy@bettermentworks.com
TRANSCRIPT
00:00:01:00 – 00:00:24:29
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to Conversations on Conversations, where we explore topics to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, and joining me today are two of my newest colleagues, friends that I have met, at conferences, Lauren Yee and Maddy Gabor. And I’m so excited for this conversation on neurodivergence in the workplace.
00:00:24:29 – 00:00:47:20
Sarah Noll Wilson
But first, let me tell you a little bit about Maddy and Lauren. Lauren and Maddy are co-founders of Betterment Works, a playful professional development company on a mission to strengthen businesses and teams by helping people feel, connect and do better at work. Lauren is a process driven problem solver who believes that curiosity, consistency, and connections are the greatest drivers of great things.
00:00:47:26 – 00:01:11:26
Sarah Noll Wilson
She is also an extroverted Hufflepuff who loves puzzles, pizza, and fun questions. She studied design and psychology and has been managing people, projects and clients since 2005, and she previously helped grow the largest Lego inspired Learning Through Play company in the United States. Maddy Gabor is an impact obsessed, lifelong learner with a passion for leadership, data, and play.
00:01:11:29 – 00:01:39:12
Sarah Noll Wilson
As a neurodivergent executive, she is well versed in the struggles of focused productivity, time management, and leadership, and her facilitation and content are informed by that experience, driven by a dedication to understanding and an unending belief in human betterment. Maddy envisions more empowering, engaging, and compassionate workplaces for all. Using play and analytics as the tools and her values as the compass, she pursues this vision relentlessly.
00:01:39:15 – 00:01:42:10
Sarah Noll Wilson
Welcome to the show, Maddy and Lauren.
00:01:42:11 – 00:01:43:11
Lauren Yee
Hello.
00:01:43:14 – 00:01:44:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hi. We made it happen.
00:01:45:02 – 00:01:45:27
Maddy Gabor
Finally we did it.
00:01:46:04 – 00:01:46:17
Lauren Yee
It’s happening.
00:01:46:17 – 00:01:59:16
Sarah Noll Wilson
Finally it’s happening. Okay, so I’m going to start with you, Maddy. And then Lauren. You’re up. So just so you know. So what else should we, as our listeners, know about you?
00:01:59:19 – 00:02:12:19
Maddy Gabor
I would say, like, the the most important facet of my personality that comes out in both work and life, is that I’m just not a casual person. I am not casual in any way.
00:02:12:21 – 00:02:15:02
Sarah Noll Wilson
Not casual? What do you mean by, you’re not casual?
00:02:15:03 – 00:02:15:12
Maddy Gabor
Yeah.
00:02:15:12 – 00:02:17:14
Sarah Noll Wilson
I experience you as very casual.
00:02:17:15 – 00:02:19:12
Maddy Gabor
Oh, I’m
00:02:19:15 – 00:02:20:26
Sarah Noll Wilson
Your language. So, define it for me.
00:02:20:26 – 00:02:49:26
Maddy Gabor
Yeah. Yeah. I don’t dress casually, feel casually, think casually about anything. I have extremely strong opinions about things I frankly have no right having even any opinion about. I feel my feelings very strongly. I care arguably too much. I have, you know, a lot of thoughts in my head at all times that I’m navigating.
00:02:49:26 – 00:03:15:29
Maddy Gabor
And I’ve never, like, casually engaged with a subject in my life. So for me, the distance between, like, learning something exists and having to know every single thing about that is like, it’s a millisecond. And so I think that I bring a lot of intensity to friendships, working, relationships, my job, all sorts of things like that.
00:03:16:01 – 00:03:44:15
Maddy Gabor
And one of the things that I love about working with Lauren and utilizing play as a modality is that it helps me take a step back from that intensity. And I find that my, my whole life is figuring out how to, chill out a little, truthfully. And, I’m really thankful to have Lauren as a business partner, because she’s really helpful for that.
00:03:44:17 – 00:03:52:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. You know, that’s why I like asking the question. I never know what people are going to say. I feel like we learned so much about you, Maddy.
00:03:52:00 – 00:03:52:11
Maddy Gabor
Yeah.
00:03:52:13 – 00:03:58:04
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, so let’s hold on to that. Lauren. What should we know about you?
00:03:58:06 – 00:04:22:22
Lauren Yee
Individually, talking about that. I feel like I. My bio shows a lot about me, and it’s very real. I feel like something that is useful to know, like a duality thing, is that I am a – I love people and talking to people, and I’m very, like, playful and curious and also on the other side, the other part of the bio, the process driven problem solver.
00:04:22:23 – 00:04:43:22
Lauren Yee
I am a very caring and kind robot. A little bit, I, I like, yeah, but like, what are we doing? What are you talking about? How does that work? And the small back story to that is I’m, I’m not like, give me all the assessments, but I always like when there’s, like, your personality or whatever.
00:04:43:28 – 00:05:01:08
Lauren Yee
Those ones are interesting because it gives you words to talk about something where you’re like, oh, it’s not a shock, but you’re like, oh, yes, exactly that. And there’s one that is the via personality characteristics, which has like 24 characteristics and they rank them. And I did this with some people and there’s 24. So you’re like, okay, that’s a lot to manage.
00:05:01:08 – 00:05:24:09
Lauren Yee
They don’t tell you if it’s like really far or really close. So we were like, well what are your top five and your bottom five? And my very number one thing, fairness. So real. And then like the other like top like 4 or 5 were like kindness, judgment, prudence, honesty. And then the bottom five were like all the feelings, love, appreciation of beauty, spirituality.
00:05:24:09 – 00:05:30:11
Lauren Yee
I’m like, oh my God, I’m a robot. So not really, but a little.
00:05:30:11 – 00:05:30:23
Sarah Noll Wilson
But a happy caring robot.
00:05:30:23 – 00:05:34:18
Lauren Yee
I’m a caring. I’m like Baymax from Big Hero
Six.
00:05:34:21 – 00:05:35:09
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah,
00:05:35:12 – 00:05:37:29
Lauren Yee
I’m your, your care companion.
00:05:38:02 – 00:05:42:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. You know, like Rosie from The Jetsons.
00:05:42:18 – 00:05:43:03
Lauren Yee
Oh yeah.
00:05:43:08 – 00:05:44:03
Sarah Noll Wilson
What are the other, you know
00:05:44:03 – 00:05:45:17
Maddy Gabor
No, that episode
00:05:45:19 – 00:05:46:05
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like Bender from
00:05:46:09 – 00:05:55:20
Maddy Gabor
Well, Oh no probably not. Not really. But you know, that episode of, Star Trek Next Generation where Data gets feelings? I feel like she’s kind of like that.
00:05:55:23 – 00:05:58:03
Lauren Yee
I got some Data, Seven of Nine vibes.
00:05:58:03 – 00:05:58:12
Maddy Gabor
Yeah, okay.
00:05:58:13 – 00:06:01:24
Lauren Yee
Lots of Seven of Nine.
00:06:01:27 – 00:06:34:03
Sarah Noll Wilson
I we’re already off to a glorious start, my friends. Okay, so. So I first met you two. As I mentioned in the introduction at a conference, and, I didn’t know anything about you or the work, but I was really interested in the session you were facilitating on, essentially honoring neuro divergence in the workplace. And for those people who are listening, who are curious about this topic, who maybe experience it directly or somebody in their life or you’re wanting to figure out.
00:06:34:06 – 00:06:59:29
Sarah Noll Wilson
These are two of the most capable people I’ve ever seen speak on this topic. The way that they were able to help people understand the challenges, the limiting beliefs, the ways we could show up differently, quite frankly, was a masterclass in how to explore accommodations. And so I was so excited to have them. And then since then, our paths have crossed and, and so here we are.
00:07:00:00 – 00:07:09:25
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, so Maddy and Lauren just, like, give us the brief background of how you two came together and the. What is it? What does the work you do look like?
00:07:09:27 – 00:07:10:26
Maddy Gabor
Yeah.
00:07:10:28 – 00:07:12:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
You’re on opposite sides of a country.
00:07:12:15 – 00:07:20:04
Maddy Gabor
We are. It’s actually. That’s so funny. So we have only ever been on opposite sides of the country.
00:07:20:04 – 00:07:22:15
Lauren Yee
Not near each other, never close.
00:07:22:17 – 00:07:47:22
Maddy Gabor
We used to work at a different education company. Long, long time ago. I think we met, like, a decade ago. And, you know, this weird pattern kept happening, which is that any time that we were trying to make something better or trying to address a problem or trying to fix something at this organization, we were always the two people that were like, yeah, let’s try this, let’s do a thing.
00:07:47:22 – 00:08:19:05
Maddy Gabor
Let’s try this weird thing that no one’s ever done before. And through that, we ended up building a really solid working relationship at an organization where we had no reason to be working together, truthfully. Like, we had completely different jobs. We covered completely different areas. We both managed full teams doing that work. But we kept sort of rising to the occasions and also creating occasions because that’s the kind of people we are.
00:08:19:07 – 00:08:50:04
Maddy Gabor
And the end result was when Covid struck and that company, laid everybody off, ourselves included. You know, we we were processing that in the midst of a pandemic, which was challenging. And the thought of not working with Lauren, like, really upset me. And, and it was really nice because at a certain point we were sort of like, wait, we can just keep working together.
00:08:50:04 – 00:09:06:09
Maddy Gabor
Like we actually didn’t need all those other people. In fact, like we were doing a lot of the interesting work for them anyway. So why don’t we just keep doing it? But ourselves. And that’s how we started our business.
00:09:06:11 – 00:09:33:03
Lauren Yee
Also in regards to like how, so that’s how we kind of came together. And so we came from a background or a foundation of play and like what that looks like, in many aspects of life. And then this particular topic of, like, neuro divergence came up organically and accidentally on purpose. Because Maddie’s our resident neurodivergent friend, and I am
00:09:33:05 – 00:09:37:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
She’s waving. For people who are not watching, she’s just, like, lovingly waving, it’s me. Hi.
00:09:37:29 – 00:09:38:25
Lauren Yee
00:09:38:28 – 00:09:39:24
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m it.
00:09:39:27 – 00:10:06:10
Lauren Yee
And I am less neurodivergent, highly neurotypical. I’ve got I’ve been told I have some spice and zest, but, like, oh, we are so different and complementary in so many ways and good ways, but also, a lot of it came from just the experience and in our other work and then this company of working together and figuring out how that does or doesn’t work or like what is going on, and then we’re like, wait, we’re like, really good at this now.
00:10:06:12 – 00:10:27:29
Lauren Yee
And this is like, so many things were things that I, as a neurotypical like, never considered or thought of until it came up in a situation or a conversation where like, oh, that’s what’s happening. Okay, now we know how to do this. And like, wait, this happens for a lot of people. Let’s turn it into a workshop.
00:10:28:01 – 00:10:52:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s, no, I love it. And and we’ve had some other conversations on the show talking maybe more explicitly about ADHD or, an episode that aired previously was actually my colleague Amy, who’s very neurotypical and her husband is neurodivergent. And then obviously she supports me and it can cause a lot of stress and it can cause a lot of frustrations on both sides.
00:10:52:17 – 00:11:20:20
Sarah Noll Wilson
So since I have like, two incredible experts, I want us to go a little bit back to basics, because I’m realizing that there’s possibilities that people are listening, hearing us use terms like neurodivergent or neurotypical and wondering to themselves, what the hell are they talking about? So I would love to hear, just from your perspective in your research, what what are those names?
00:11:20:20 – 00:11:38:21
Sarah Noll Wilson
What do they represent, and why is it important knowing that our audience is largely people who are in leadership positions in HR? Why it’s so critical? So let’s hold on to that question. I’ll bring that up. But when we talk about neurodivergence versus neurotypical, what what are we actually talking about? So whoever feels comfortable.
00:11:38:23 – 00:11:39:17
Maddy Gabor
Oh, I’ll take it.
00:11:39:18 – 00:11:41:21
Sarah Noll Wilson
You’re on it, let’s do it, Maddy.
00:11:41:26 – 00:12:09:19
Maddy Gabor
As a neurodivergent person who has neurodivergence as a special interest. I would love to talk about this. So neurodivergent essentially means that it is a brain that differs from what is considered typical in neurological function, and that can mean a lot of different things. And I think it’s really important to remember that, of course it is a spectrum, but also there are not clear boundaries around a lot of these things.
00:12:09:21 – 00:12:17:20
Maddy Gabor
So very commonly we think of things like autism, ADHD, dyslexia, but it also it
00:12:17:22 – 00:12:18:12
Sarah Noll Wilson
Tourette’s.
00:12:18:12 – 00:12:27:27
Maddy Gabor
Tourette’s. It includes things like fetal alcohol syndrome, visual and auditory processing disorders, hyper lexia which is of course the opposite of
00:12:27:29 – 00:12:28:05
Sarah Noll Wilson
What’s that?
00:12:28:05 – 00:12:38:01
Maddy Gabor
It’s the opposite of dyslexia. So hyper lexia is people who have extremely advanced cognition when it comes to reading.
00:12:38:03 – 00:13:04:07
Maddy Gabor
So, if you are somebody who can read very fast, remember every single thing you read and also, have very high reading comprehension, even though you are reading quickly. That’s hyper lexia. It also includes things like disnumeria or dyscalculia, which is the numeric version of dyslexia and dyspraxia, which has to do with, spatial awareness. Right?
00:13:04:07 – 00:13:29:18
Maddy Gabor
So if you’re a person who bumps into things a lot or takes corners wrong, you may have dyspraxia. And the thing about these that I think is really important to remember is that while each one of them has individual diagnostic criteria, a lot of them are overlapping. Right. So you may have a, auditory processing disorder as a part of your ADHD or hyper lexia as a part of your autism.
00:13:29:21 – 00:14:09:13
Maddy Gabor
Or you may just have those things by themselves. And so one of the biggest challenges here is getting the whole world comfortable with the idea that these are not, binary statuses. Right? So you’re not like, I have this and only this. And because there is a lot of overlap and because in the medical community, a lot of neuro divergence has been undiagnosed or misdiagnosed, specifically in women and people of color, sort of the process of like, what is a neurodivergent person versus what is a neurotypical person can be a little bit challenging and muddy.
00:14:09:16 – 00:14:27:12
Maddy Gabor
And now there are studies that are saying that, as much as, like 65 to 70% of people are neurodivergent in some way, which if only 30% are typical, I’m not sure that we can continue calling that typical, but that is the language we have.
00:14:27:15 – 00:14:27:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:14:27:27 – 00:14:50:27
Maddy Gabor
And and so it does cover a lot of things. And one of the things that we have experienced a lot in doing this workshop is a huge number of, of adults who come up to us after these workshops going, oh, I think I might have that thing that you were talking about or like I think maybe my husband does.
00:14:51:00 – 00:15:15:07
Maddy Gabor
And so, it’s an interesting thing because sometimes people don’t know that neurodivergence exists at all. And then when they learn about it, they’re like, oh my God, this describes me exactly. And and truthfully, I don’t know a ton of people that are, like, very firmly neurotypical. Lauren is one of the only ones I can say that I know.
00:15:15:12 – 00:15:26:25
Maddy Gabor
That just might be my friend group. But my sense is that there actually aren’t that many neurotypical people out there in, you know, and according to latest studies.
00:15:26:28 – 00:15:47:20
Lauren Yee
Also, just as a neurotypical for now person, I don’t know, a neurotypical person like you’re talking about how neurodivergence is a spectrum. You can have like a part of a thing, or there’s a lot of overlapping things. Even with being neurotypical, I feel like there’s also like a spectrum. Like we’re not all the same person. We don’t all have the same brain.
00:15:47:25 – 00:16:12:05
Lauren Yee
Like, my brain works a little bit differently or faster or slower in different ways than someone else’s. Regardless of any diagnostic anything. And so I think that, sometimes what happens to like for me, like, I’m, I consider myself pretty neurotypical because the way that I think like, I can again, I’m creative and, I can think not linearly, but the way that I like function within the society.
00:16:12:08 – 00:16:32:10
Lauren Yee
It’s like this is what’s been set up, and I function very well in that. It’s totally fine. It’s not a problem for me. And yes, I, like, my brain might work in some different ways, but again, it’s a spectrum and it’s just how well you can get by with where, sort of society has expected you to exist.
00:16:32:12 – 00:16:49:15
Lauren Yee
That can help just because sometimes I we’ll see, like the memes and reels and TikTok things of like ADHD brain. I was like, ooh, I feel that. But that doesn’t 100% mean you’re like, oh my God, I’m ADHD. And like, maybe, maybe not. And so I think it’s hard because, generally people want a lot of binary.
00:16:49:17 – 00:16:55:17
Lauren Yee
Yes, no. I am, I’m not. Right, wrong. But it’s so much is not like that. Especially this.
00:16:55:19 – 00:17:19:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Well. And Lauren, you I mean, you’re opening us up into where, I want to go with this conversation, which is that largely the workplace has been designed for a certain type of thinker, a certain type of communicator, a certain type of person, that is inherently exclusionary to those of us who may need different kinds of support.
00:17:20:00 – 00:17:39:11
Sarah Noll Wilson
And so I’m curious to hear you speak to it. I mean, I know that I can share my thoughts, my experience, but you’re our our resident experts that even as somebody who has ADHD, I’ve often struggled with it being, you know, referred to as a disorder. I’m like, no, it’s just my brain is literally just it’s shaped differently.
00:17:39:13 – 00:18:00:14
Sarah Noll Wilson
It works differently. It functions differently. And it doesn’t mean that I’m less than. It just means that how I’m expected to show up is different than how my brain wants to be able to show up. So I’m curious to hear from one or both of you what are, you know, what are some of those common ways? I mean, we know in American culture, right?
00:18:00:14 – 00:18:30:05
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s very much, was created by and for white men from a standpoint of like that binary thinking that black or white thinking, the, leave or leave emotions out of it. There’s a high value on written word. There’s a high value on extroversion. Right. All of that. So, so what are some of those things we need to be aware of, of, things that we accept as rules of what work needs to look like, but aren’t really rules.
00:18:30:08 – 00:19:04:11
Maddy Gabor
Yeah. Oh, you’re speaking my language, Sarah. Yeah. You know, so I have ADHD and autism and, I oftentimes struggle with this feeling of sort of like, I’m not wrong. The world is built weird for me. And I think that’s sort of what you’re talking about here. And, and one of the things that that I see the most, which I find really heartbreaking, has to do with our understanding of communication and socialization.
00:19:04:14 – 00:19:46:13
Maddy Gabor
I think that the goal. So humans are social beings. We don’t want to be alone. We thrive better in community. Generally. And the goal of communication is to build connection. But neurotypical communication has a lot of unspoken rules and and confusing criteria for success that I find as a neurodivergent person, I sometimes struggle with. And I think workplaces are an even more heightened version of that because there’s there’s layers of like, this is what professional is, this is what appropriate is.
00:19:46:15 – 00:19:47:00
Maddy Gabor
And so.
00:19:47:04 – 00:19:50:20
Sarah Noll Wilson
This is what civil is, this is what respect looks like.
00:19:50:21 – 00:20:31:09
Maddy Gabor
Yeah. And and then of course I’m always like, well, who defines what civil is, is it perhaps the white male power holders that we’ve had this entire time? So that, you know, that’s a real struggle. And I think that it shows up in work in a few different ways. One thing I hear a lot from specifically neurodivergent women and specifically autistic women, is that when they make statements like straightforward statements, it’s heard as aggressive, or when they ask questions, it’s interpreted as judgment rather than a person trying to ask clarifying questions because they’re trying to understand.
00:20:31:11 – 00:20:55:29
Maddy Gabor
And I think there’s a few things at play there, right? There’s like a, a straightforwardness that some neurodivergents have in the way they communicate. And then I also think there’s a layer of how we expect women to soften themselves in the workplace so as to not, like, upset the culture. And I think that those two things sort of interact in a really challenging way.
00:20:56:02 – 00:21:13:22
Maddy Gabor
The other thing is that I think a lot of times, a lot of the neurodivergent people I know are similar to myself, which is that they are just very excited about everything, excited about all the subjects. And sometimes that excitement is, is frowned upon.
00:21:13:24 – 00:21:14:07
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:21:14:08 – 00:21:26:24
Maddy Gabor
And we we really judge adults for being excited, especially if they’re excited about things that are different than what you’re excited about or the acceptable excitement topics.
00:21:26:26 – 00:21:27:18
Maddy Gabor
And so, like,
00:21:27:25 – 00:21:30:18
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sorry, I’m having such a strong reaction
00:21:30:21 – 00:21:31:17
Lauren Yee
I’m seeing it.
00:21:31:17 – 00:21:36:20
Sarah Noll Wilson
to the simplicity of how you just said that, we judge adults for excitement.
00:21:36:24 – 00:21:37:04
Maddy Gabor
Yeah.
00:21:37:04 – 00:21:38:07
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s so true.
00:21:38:08 – 00:21:40:16
Maddy Gabor
It’s really true. And it’s so sad.
00:21:40:19 – 00:21:40:24
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:21:41:02 – 00:22:09:08
Maddy Gabor
Actually, it’s really heartbreaking. And especially when you’re when you’re looking at neurodivergent communication, when somebody is bringing such, excitement into an interaction and they’re just desperately trying to make a connection, and it’s met with like the least generous reception of that. And, and then, you know, it goes back to the thing I was talking about at the beginning, which is that like the point of communication is to build connections.
00:22:09:10 – 00:22:09:29
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:22:10:01 – 00:22:39:20
Maddy Gabor
Right. And so when someone is trying to build a connection with you, even if it’s not exactly how you would do it, there should be respect and value in that. Right. And and feeling that value of like, this person is trying to connect with me and like, I don’t know anything about this subject that they are very excited about, but I recognize the absolute value of their effort, and I’m not going to shame them or judge them for being excited about things just because they’re different than the things that make me feel excited.
00:22:39:22 – 00:23:08:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
That was one of the things that I remember writing down in your session, and underlining is that that idea of particularly, somebody from a neurodivergent perspective, oftentimes not always, but oftentimes can get really excited, hyper focused. And and the two of you described it as they’re making this generous assumption that you want to hear about this because they’re so excited about it.
00:23:09:00 – 00:23:30:09
Sarah Noll Wilson
And and I want to just I want to I want to reiterate and echo the phrase you just said, because it was so powerful for me during your session. And how often do we meet that generous assumption with the least generous response? And, and the thing, the connection that’s coming up for me. And, now that was different, is that idea of building connections, right?
00:23:30:09 – 00:23:43:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
If you go to the work of the Gottman Institute and how people make bids, right? We make a bid for connection, we make a bid. And how often do we turn towards those versus like, oh, God, if he goes on and on about his – You know, for my dad, it’s rocks.
00:23:43:27 – 00:23:44:07
Maddy Gabor
Love that.
00:23:44:07 – 00:23:47:26
Sarah Noll Wilson
He just loves rock so much. And it’s like, oh my God.
00:23:47:26 – 00:23:49:11
Sarah Noll Wilson
If you know, like sometimes it’s a.
00:23:49:18 – 00:23:51:06
Lauren Yee
We get it, okay.
00:23:51:06 – 00:24:13:05
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like but it’s like but but but I love that invitation of everyone’s coming from a place of wanting to connect. We had I want to share this and I’m curious to get both of your responses to it. So we had this really incredible woman on the show, Vanessa McNeal. And one of the things we were talking about is how we always are coming from a place of love or fear.
00:24:13:11 – 00:24:30:12
Sarah Noll Wilson
And she actually further defined it as we’re either coming from a place for love or from love, like we’re looking for that connection, or we want to show that love. Like there is something really beautiful about that. And that that was just a connection I was making as you were talking, Maddy.
00:24:30:14 – 00:24:30:21
Maddy Gabor
Yeah.
00:24:30:21 – 00:24:33:13
Sarah Noll Wilson
Lauren, what comes up for you?
00:24:33:16 – 00:24:51:18
Lauren Yee
I feel like there’s, like, Maddy gave some very good specific examples, and I’m going to generalize a little bit just because it is hard, because we don’t know your workplace or like what your experience is. And like, we don’t have all the answers. We are we’re toolbox educators. We’re like, we don’t have the answer. We have stuff that you can use when you see fit.
00:24:51:18 – 00:25:26:08
Lauren Yee
And we want to give you those tools and skills and ideas and practices. So I’m going to generalize a little bit based off of like our past work where we used to work with, kids and learning to play. Now we do like adults and learning through play. But in that same idea, and like what assumptions are in the workplace and the structures that are in place and all that stuff is one of my individual perspectives on like a world loosely, is just like, I feel like every but all everybody could have better benefit from adulting like a kid is like what I call it.
00:25:26:08 – 00:25:45:08
Lauren Yee
Because when we’re kids or when you’re talking to kids, we’re working with kids. We’re interacting with kids. Like there’s so much more grace, right? Like they’re coming at you with, like, did you did you know that in Minecraft there’s these mobs and there’s, tarantulas, and you can do this with a sheep. And if you chop down a tree and you’re like, oh my God, what is happening?
00:25:45:08 – 00:26:05:23
Lauren Yee
But you’re like, yeah, tell me about Minecraft. But if an adult comes at you talking about rocks, you’re like, why are you talking to me? Similarly, like if a kid is just like losing it because they’ve been sitting in circle time, like in elementary school for like 20 minutes and they’re just, like, starting to like, bounce around. You’re like, do you need to go walk around over there?
00:26:05:23 – 00:26:09:19
Lauren Yee
But with adults we like, that’s no longer allowed. We like suddenly.
00:26:09:24 – 00:26:12:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
You should be able to – continue. Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt.
00:26:12:00 – 00:26:28:19
Lauren Yee
No, it’s like we we get trained out of it like you aren’t supposed to move around. You’re supposed to have eyes on me and, like, sit still and, like, know the right answers. And we get trained into that. And that’s just the expectation. But like, we’re still the same humans. And like, adults need to move around. Adults also want to talk about stuff.
00:26:28:25 – 00:26:42:25
Lauren Yee
Adults also have like a weird idea that maybe is like they just had an idea and said a thing and maybe it is in like a brainstorm or something, but it feels too weird or out of reach or like, we don’t have the budget. You’re like, yeah, but maybe it might get somewhere if you let it get somewhere.
00:26:42:27 – 00:27:08:13
Lauren Yee
And there’s just so many generalized versions of what we allow for kids that we don’t allow for adults in so many ways, excitement or like if you’re thinking like school work and work work like the ways that people are allowed to interact with material or each other, it gets really tamped down and like rigid and like tightened up, for adults.
00:27:08:13 – 00:27:19:15
Lauren Yee
And there’s just like, do we – Why? Like, can we loosen up a little bit? Like, why do we need like, why do we require this? Is it really hurting anybody? Like,
00:27:19:16 – 00:27:20:20
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:27:20:22 – 00:27:24:12
Lauren Yee
it’s very general. But it’s, it’s the it’s it’s the parallel.
00:27:24:15 – 00:27:40:14
Sarah Noll Wilson
I think that’s a that’s such a good – Maddy, I want to hear from you. I just wanted to share this, reflection that, you know, why do we require this? And for us, the language we like to use is, is this a rule or is this a possibility? Is this just one way we can do something, or are there other ways to do it?
00:27:40:14 – 00:27:57:04
Sarah Noll Wilson
And and and what we see is sometimes you’re so trained into it that you lose perspective of what else could even be possible, because there’s been this very clear, right or wrong, or here’s how you get promoted or here’s who gets promoted. Maddy, what’s coming up for you?
00:27:57:07 – 00:27:59:10
Maddy Gabor
Oh, like 9 million thoughts, casually.
00:27:59:12 – 00:28:01:09
Sarah Noll Wilson
I know,
00:28:01:11 – 00:28:01:27
Lauren Yee
Every time.
00:28:02:01 – 00:28:20:25
Maddy Gabor
So I’m going to pick one. Yeah. Sort of jumping off of what Lauren was saying about sort of how we, we accept things from children that we don’t accept from adults. And we think that that’s part of being like a grown up. She talked about excitement, which I think is a really good example of that.
00:28:20:28 – 00:28:35:07
Maddy Gabor
One of the other ones is being bad at things, right? Like we allow kids to be in the process of learning, and we do not really comfortably allow that for adults.
00:28:35:10 – 00:28:36:15
Maddy Gabor
And it’s really
00:28:36:16 – 00:28:36:24
Lauren Yee
You’re supposed to know everything.
00:28:37:00 – 00:28:37:25
Lauren Yee
and know better.
00:28:37:27 – 00:29:05:26
Maddy Gabor
Yeah. And it’s so unfortunate because basically none of us know anything like on a basic level, we are just all sort of lying to ourselves and being like, no, no, no, no, I know everything. It’s fine. You know, I think what happens is as we get older, we start to associate a lot of, the desire for certainty is the same thing as security.
00:29:05:29 – 00:29:26:28
Maddy Gabor
And so we, we make these very rigid box at work, the boxes at work for people to, you know, this is your job. This is how we expect you to deliver. This is what right is. This is the the right way to solve this problem. And we do all of that because our brains, while being really complicated, are also very simple.
00:29:27:00 – 00:29:58:00
Maddy Gabor
And predictability and certainty feels like security to us. And so we sacrifice the messiness of curiosity and risk taking and the unknown and imperfection in favor of of a false sense of security that comes with having very rigid boundaries. And part of the reason that we are as adults, not great at problem solving is because we do that.
00:29:58:03 – 00:30:20:21
Maddy Gabor
Right. You’re at work and we’re trying to solve the same problem we have all the time and the same four ways we try to solve it, because nobody feels safe enough to be risky in the way that they try to solve it. And then we wonder why we have the same persistent problems all the time. And, you know, some of it is because you always have the same types of people in the room making the choices.
00:30:20:29 – 00:30:51:04
Maddy Gabor
But another part of it is that we’ve, like, erected all of these rules about how things are supposed to be, and it it kills our divergent thinking, it kills our creativity. And ultimately we just sort of stay in whatever the swamp of the problem is. And truthfully, if we were more comfortable behaving like children, I think we would have an easier time solving some of these problems.
00:30:51:07 – 00:31:15:23
Sarah Noll Wilson
That that point of certainty feels like security is so, so powerful, so valuable. I mean, we know that so much of the root cause of anxiety, we were privileged to have, two, like world leading psychologists on the show, last year and the. Yeah, I mean, the root cause of anxiety. So it makes sense that people are seeking the sense of certainty.
00:31:15:26 – 00:31:31:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
But it’s limiting, so it limits how you can show up. It limits how you think about it, limits how you solve problems. It limits you know, what you create and and not to say. And I think sometimes this is what we hear from clients. And I’m sure you do too of like, yeah, but we are still a business that needs to run and make money.
00:31:31:29 – 00:31:48:17
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. We’re not saying blow it all up. Right? Like when we say experimenting or being curious, it’s not, hey, let’s just throw everything out and rebuild it. But where are the opportunities where we could take, you know, what does Doctor Amy Edmundson, she said on our show
00:31:48:19 – 00:31:49:26
Maddy Gabor
I love her.
00:31:49:28 – 00:31:50:21
Sarah Noll Wilson
She’s amazing.
00:31:50:21 – 00:31:52:27
Maddy Gabor
I love her so much.
00:31:53:00 – 00:31:54:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
She’s incredible.
00:31:54:29 – 00:31:55:27
Maddy Gabor
Her work is amazing.
00:31:55:27 – 00:32:05:22
Sarah Noll Wilson
We were able to have. Yeah, yeah, but it was like, basically, her point is, you know what? Sort of. What’s the safest risk we can take? That’s going to give us the most information?
00:32:05:23 – 00:32:06:06
Maddy Gabor
Absolutely.
00:32:06:06 – 00:32:09:22
Sarah Noll Wilson
Let’s take that risk. Yeah. Lauren, I can see you have some thoughts.
00:32:09:22 – 00:32:31:08
Lauren Yee
Well, there’s in response to that. And then I do have a thought. But, in response to that, I think that, again, the binary and people go to like the, a lot of people go to like, what’s the worst that can happen? And also just like, don’t think about what’s the best that could happen or like, what’s the like tiny, minuscule thing that might happen because it’s not going to be the worst thing.
00:32:31:15 – 00:32:57:21
Lauren Yee
It won’t it like, I mean responsibly, like you could do it, but probably not. That’s not what’s going to happen. And I think that people just also as adults get like really stuck in there like, oh, but we don’t want like the worst thing to happen, to happen. And we aren’t practiced in experimenting, making a mistake, learning from it, trying again because it’s like too risky or like it’s going to cost so much money or like, yeah, whatever’s going to happen, which is a risk.
00:32:57:21 – 00:33:05:06
Lauren Yee
But like, you can do it in an educated, thoughtful way, not in a like we’re just going to try whatever. Like, no, that’s not that’s not the thing.
00:33:05:13 – 00:33:06:25
Sarah Noll Wilson
We’re not throwing spaghetti against the wall.
00:33:06:26 – 00:33:08:10
Lauren Yee
Yeah. No we’re going to like pick through the spaghetti.
00:33:08:10 – 00:33:10:20
Sarah Noll Wilson
We are making some, like educated information.
00:33:10:23 – 00:33:11:03
Lauren Yee
Yeah.
00:33:11:09 – 00:33:12:16
Sarah Noll Wilson
And then trying things.
00:33:12:16 – 00:33:42:07
Lauren Yee
But yeah but we’re out of practice. So like any version of that feels scary. It’s like when people aren’t used to getting feedback. Feedback feels like criticism. Like if you’re not good at making mistakes, like every mistake is the worst possible thing. So we all should practice that more maybe. But the other thing that I was going to say that as it’s interesting because like, as the neurotypical person here, you’re talking about how the job world, security feels like certainty and security feels good.
00:33:42:07 – 00:34:12:05
Lauren Yee
And that’s why we have, like, these boxes and expectations and this list and a process for things. And within that, there’s still a lot of weird gray area of like, company culture versus the, like the outward what’s said versus the like, how it all happens. And for like the flip side, for what I’ve come to realize for neurodivergent folks, there’s a lot of uncertainty in that mismatch because certainty feels like security.
00:34:12:05 – 00:34:34:08
Lauren Yee
And when you’re like, well, there’s I’m certain of this because that’s the rule. But then, like, no one’s doing the rule, you’re like, I am anxious now. And so like there’s like a there’s a equal and opposite thing happening with what that is creating or causing for different people. Because again, we’re all different. And it’s like we do have to figure out some version of, of the collective agreement upon this is how we’re going to function together.
00:34:34:11 – 00:34:47:24
Lauren Yee
But it’s been heavily weighted on one side. But we need to meet more in the middle, like there is. Yes, this is better for you, but it’s like way worse for somebody else, depending on what the situation at hand might be.
00:34:47:26 – 00:34:48:04
Maddy Gabor
Yeah.
00:34:48:11 – 00:35:15:02
Sarah Noll Wilson
Lauren, that’s such a good call out of the implications when there is a disconnect between, what a company or a team or even a leader says this is what we’re going to do and how we always show up. And and we know that that can lead to distrust, right? Because people aren’t sure. But it is interesting to look at it that through the lens of neurodivergence and going, but you said this was the rule and I did this, but you all aren’t doing this.
00:35:15:02 – 00:35:41:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
And now I’m really, really struggling because you all aren’t doing this as well. I mean, because that’s that’s part of it for some people. And maybe, Maddie, you can speak to this. For some people, the neurodivergence shows up as, struggle, like, understanding those social cues, being able to read emotions, understanding what the quote unquote appropriate.
00:35:41:03 – 00:36:05:23
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, and again, people listening, I’m doing really hard air quotes. Right. That, that for some people I know in my life, my loved ones and friends and family, that there’s this need of needing to be explicit because the implicit is really hard for them to, register or to interpret. And I don’t know if I’m speaking about that accurately.
00:36:05:23 – 00:36:07:14
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s just my observation.
00:36:07:14 – 00:36:52:23
Maddy Gabor
Yeah, you definitely are. We talk a lot about, implied versus explicit communication because a lot of times, neurotypical people in positions of power feel they are being explicit. And the people on the receiving end do not feel that, especially if you’re neurodivergent. And then when you add to that, somebody asking clarifying questions, being interpreted as judgment or backtalk, it can really escalate or yeah, it can really escalate in a way that is, I don’t think anybody’s intention in that, in that conversation.
00:36:52:25 – 00:37:21:15
Maddy Gabor
And I do, I struggle with something that a lot of neurodivergent people have, which is a rigid sense of justice. And the rigid and the justice is not necessarily around legality or morality. It’s just this was my understanding of what the role was. But no one seems to be following that rule. So is it just rule this rule, or do all rules mean nothing here?
00:37:21:18 – 00:37:50:21
Maddy Gabor
And like that is a really complicated thing to navigate when you’re in, when, when when you ask questions, it’s interpreted poorly, right. Because you’re just kind of stuck where you’re like, I feel a lot of anxiety and cognitive, dissonance because these two things don’t align. But when I try to get like clarification around these things, it is interpreted as like subtle rebellion or like being difficult.
00:37:50:23 – 00:38:19:28
Maddy Gabor
And, and that’s so challenging because I don’t know what to do in that situation. And it really it sort of goes back to what Lauren was saying, which is like certainty for who? Security for who. Right? Because for me, that makes me feel deeply insecure because most people want to do a good job at their job. Like we encounter a lot of different work environments, and it is so rare that I encounter somebody that’s just like, nah, I don’t care.
00:38:19:28 – 00:38:59:07
Maddy Gabor
I don’t want to, I don’t want to do a good job, I don’t care. Like that’s almost never the situation. It’s usually some mixture of like a lack of clarity, a miscommunication or something along those lines, or, you know, a perception about a person getting in the way of the reality. And it is such a struggle because I think that sometimes neurotypical people in positions of power see having to be very clear in their communication as a statement about somebody else’s inability to act autonomously or be proactive and like, that’s not what that is, right?
00:38:59:07 – 00:39:21:28
Maddy Gabor
This is again, hearkening back to sort of some of our work in, in schools, we’re very generous about meeting kids where they’re at in order to get them to the goal we’re trying to achieve. And then when we become adults, all of a sudden we’re just not willing to do that. And that’s really unfortunate because it’s self-defeating for for everyone involved.
00:39:22:00 – 00:39:51:01
Maddy Gabor
Right. Like if you just did this extra work to be clear and explicit about your communication, then it would work better for everyone and and even for neurotypical people. I think sometimes, people are afraid that if they’re extra clear, they’re going to be interpreted as perhaps condescending to a person. I, I think that there needs to be generosity on both sides of a conversation.
00:39:51:01 – 00:40:01:00
Maddy Gabor
And, and so when people are extra clear with me, my feeling is like, thank you. That is so helpful. I really appreciate that.
00:40:01:03 – 00:40:40:25
Lauren Yee
I want to chime in on that, too, because I feel like, this conversation about, clarity and communication has been a lot of from the questions like misalignment. And then also from the question side, I also want to say kind of like what you just touched on, Maddy, the thing about, when someone is very direct and clear, I will say again, in experiencing this from the other side, if a person, potentially neurodivergent or otherwise, is being very clear, sometimes that is perceived as condescending, which is why we’re like, so there’s such a know it all or whatever, which is why we societally are like, I don’t want to do that.
00:40:40:25 – 00:40:58:26
Lauren Yee
So like, I’m trying to be less direct. And when people do to me that’s how it feels. But in the same way of like the misalignment of information, I feel like sometimes when people are being very clear, if they’re the neurodivergent side and you’re experiencing it as a neurotypical and they’re just like, actually, that’s not what we’re supposed to be doing.
00:40:59:01 – 00:41:17:00
Lauren Yee
And you’re like, whatever. But I feel like what’s again, the connection that’s trying to happen is like, we’re just trying to all get on the same page. And I wanted to make sure that you had the same information that I had, because it looked like you didn’t have the same information because we’re operating in a different way. But we’re we get very stuck on our, like, oh, they’re coming at me.
00:41:17:03 – 00:41:18:00
Maddy Gabor
00:41:18:02 – 00:41:21:10
Lauren Yee
Either with questions or aggressive facts.
00:41:21:12 – 00:41:35:16
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. Well, and, and I and this is something that we see so much and are such big advocates in our work. And just that was having this conversation yesterday with a group of, there is no such thing as a right way.
00:41:35:19 – 00:41:36:00
Maddy Gabor
Yes.
00:41:36:00 – 00:41:42:24
Sarah Noll Wilson
There’s no right words when we talk about implicit versus explicit, some some cultures are very implicit.
00:41:42:27 – 00:42:04:04
Sarah Noll Wilson
And then what does that look like and how do we navigate that. And then there are cultures who are who value that more being explicit. And I’m like it’s just what’s right for that relationship. But for those two people, how do we take the time, you know, and I love the language you both have used so many times of how do we be generous with each other, how do we test those assumptions?
00:42:04:04 – 00:42:25:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
And you didn’t use that language, but the way you’re describing is, well, how do we check that assumption that, oh, wow, you’re being condescending. Like, no, I’m, I’m actually just trying to. And it’s funny because this just came up yesterday because somebody said, I realize as a manager or I lose trust in somebody when they don’t keep me updated along the way, and I just hear about it at the end.
00:42:25:00 – 00:42:53:07
Sarah Noll Wilson
And then someone else said, I would feel like you were micromanaging me if you wanted updates more frequently. Beautiful. That friction point you two need to talk about and essentially co-create for, for for you in your working environment. So, so one of the things I’m so obviously I get this talk to you to all day long, but take all of your time today and this might be something that we continue to explore, and we have you back.
00:42:53:07 – 00:43:14:08
Sarah Noll Wilson
So friends who are listening, if there are questions you have or challenges you’re experiencing, feel free to reach out. Send it to us at podcast at Sara Noll Wilson dot com. The one thing that I am curious about is, you know, some of the things you’ve talked about are, how do we how do we give grace and generosity to, to more people?
00:43:14:08 – 00:43:31:24
Sarah Noll Wilson
How do we embrace the learning process? How do we, how do we communicate in a way that feels good for all parties, understanding the dynamics that it might not feel great to you, but it feels great to someone else, or vice versa. What else? You know? And I know this is a big question that likely could be met with,
00:43:31:24 – 00:43:53:28
Sarah Noll Wilson
It depends. But what else should people who are listening to this who, either maybe thinking as somebody who’s, neurotypical, managing a team, supporting a company, what are different ways we can accommodate and collaborate across differences in brain processing?
00:43:54:00 – 00:44:21:27
Lauren Yee
I mean, my my first go to is so general, but I’m I love curiosity, I’m a curious person and it really helps just generally. But in situations like taking a deep breath before you respond to something and just like asking more questions, whatever the situation might be, which is like, why did you do this this way? Not in a false way, but in a like, I’m trying to understand how this happened because I would never do that.
00:44:22:03 – 00:44:25:25
Lauren Yee
So what made you do that this way?
00:44:25:27 – 00:44:26:28
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, help me understand.
00:44:27:00 – 00:44:43:24
Lauren Yee
Help me understand. How did you get here? Why are you bringing that up? What made you bring that up today? How is that relevant to this? Did you know this existed? Whether it’s a resource or something, like if somebody a situation has arisen and you’re like, why did they not just call this person?
00:44:43:24 – 00:45:12:20
Lauren Yee
Maybe they didn’t know that person was someone they should call. So just asking more to understand the fuller picture, because we paint a picture right of like, this is what happened. I would never do that. Like they’re not you. So like find out and ask more of the who, what, when, where, why questions, whatever it might be. Because you have the opportunity to learn something about, again, process or a thought process or just process in the workplace that you can fix that.
00:45:12:20 – 00:45:23:14
Lauren Yee
Then like this won’t happen again for them or anyone else in the future. And that is very general, but is can be used and every situation.
00:45:23:16 – 00:45:30:11
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, like you a lot, a lot of a lot of distress can be reduced by just pausing and going, what do I actually know?
00:45:30:13 – 00:45:30:24
Maddy Gabor
Yeah,
00:45:30:25 – 00:45:32:01
Sarah Noll Wilson
And what do I need to learn.
00:45:32:01 – 00:45:32:25
Maddy Gabor
Yes.
00:45:32:25 – 00:45:40:06
Sarah Noll Wilson
And how do I well, I mean, even at the top of this, this is one of the things or so particular about practicing is, okay,
00:45:40:06 – 00:45:50:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
well, you said casual. I know what it means to me, but that was not at all how it meant to you. Like when you say that, I mean, even just those small, small things. Maddy, what would you add?
00:45:51:00 – 00:46:29:24
Maddy Gabor
Yeah. You know, I think. As much as we can safely extend generous assumptions about each other, the the better off we will all be. And and really, to me, that sort of all falls under this umbrella of, the humility that we should all have as students and teachers in this world. Because the one of the only things we know about humans is that, like, we’re imperfect, right?
00:46:29:24 – 00:46:36:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like like like that’s that’s how that’s, Doctor Edmundson introduced herself. She said, I am a fallible human.
00:46:36:00 – 00:46:36:17
Maddy Gabor
Yes,
00:46:36:18 – 00:46:38:17
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that. Like we’re all fallible.
00:46:38:20 – 00:47:16:14
Maddy Gabor
Yes. And and like, this is where I think ego really gets in the way of our ability to connect with one another is that we, we somehow have this feeling that, like, especially as adults and again, not so much for children, but as adults that like really being honest about the imperfect nature of all of us as individuals is somehow, going to like, I don’t know, harm your ego or you’re going to get like points against you in the cosmic metric of people keeping score, which I think is really unhelpful to the whole world.
00:47:16:16 – 00:47:47:10
Maddy Gabor
One of the things that we really love about play is that it creates space for people to be outwardly, openly, proudly imperfect. Right? We are all in progress. Hopefully we will be for our entire lives. Right? And and if we can be comfortable with that in ourselves and, and sort of name that and share that at the top, especially if you’re a leader, right?
00:47:47:10 – 00:48:11:09
Maddy Gabor
If you are a team leader, the more you can ground yourself in the the humility of our imperfection, the easier it is to extend generous assumptions to ourselves and to others. And I, I do think that a lot of times, what’s happening at work when we have conflict is that our brains again, we have that sort of like, oh, I feel threatened.
00:48:11:09 – 00:48:30:29
Maddy Gabor
For whatever reason, this conversation makes me feel like I’m, straying from the social norm. I may have inadvertently caused harm. I might be doing something that I didn’t know was immoral. Right? Like there are all sorts of reasons that we can experience feelings of threat and our natural response to that is sort of out of our control.
00:48:30:29 – 00:49:03:01
Maddy Gabor
Right? The immediate response to those things is usually some sort of rush of feelings that’s chemical. And then, a lot of times it’s our first response is how we’ve been trained through life and not necessarily how we actually feel or what we think would be the most productive thing to say or do moving forward. And so I think when you are having those experiences at work, like becoming practiced and being like, oh, I am having a strong feeling right now.
00:49:03:03 – 00:49:29:24
Maddy Gabor
Or oh, this is not going how I wanted it to go. And then taking that moment to like, take a deep breath and like, ground ourselves in our imperfection as the starting point will make it so much easier to meet other people in their imperfection. And and from there, you can move forward.
00:49:29:26 – 00:49:33:24
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that, ladies. I could talk to you all day.
00:49:33:27 – 00:49:34:10
Maddy Gabor
Ditto.
00:49:34:13 – 00:49:53:13
Sarah Noll Wilson
But I can’t. But but I can’t, I won’t because you need to get back to your day. Okay? So, I want to make sure people know how to connect with you. So for people who are interested in working with you, hiring you, for their company coaching all of the amazing work, what is the best way for people to connect with you two?
00:49:53:15 – 00:50:18:05
Maddy Gabor
Well, for starters, you can just send us an email. My email is Maddy at Betterment Works dot com, Lauren’s is Lauren at Betterment Works dot com. Surprisingly. You can also check out Betterment Works dot com. We do workshops, learning development training, coaching, all sorts of culture work for the workplace. And I know, you know, today we’re talking a lot about neuro divergence.
00:50:18:08 – 00:50:21:01
Maddy Gabor
But that’s not the only thing we do. We do a lot of other things.
00:50:21:07 – 00:50:38:24
Sarah Noll Wilson
They do a lot of other things, and they do it in such an amazing way, both virtually and in person. And so if you’re looking for, a dynamic duo to help you become better, I highly recommend Maddy and Lauren. Maddy and Lauren, thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate you both.
00:50:38:26 – 00:50:39:17
Maddy Gabor
We appreciate you.
00:50:39:17 – 00:50:41:12
Lauren Yee
Thank you for having us. It was fun.
00:50:41:17 – 00:50:43:00
Maddy Gabor
So fun.
00:50:43:02 – 00:50:44:07
Sarah Noll Wilson
We’ll do it again.
00:50:44:10 – 00:50:45:16
Lauren Yee
Yes.
00:50:45:18 – 00:51:06:22
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guests this week have been Lauren Yee and Maddy Gabor. I don’t know about you all, but there is a couple of things that they said that hit pretty hard. Gosh, that first one of just we don’t allow adults to be excited about stuff made me question all the times maybe I’ve unintentionally silenced or shut down somebody’s enthusiasm.
00:51:06:22 – 00:51:27:02
Sarah Noll Wilson
Also, this idea of we allow kids to be in the process of learning, but we don’t allow adults to do the same. There’s a lot of notes I took, and as always, my friends, we want to hear from you. What resonated? What came up for you? What questions do you have? You can reach out at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com, where I read and respond to all the emails that we get. Now,
00:51:27:02 – 00:51:48:14
Sarah Noll Wilson
if you liked this episode and want to support the show, there’s two ways. First, if you haven’t already, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This allows us to increase exposure and to continue to have great conversations like the one we did today. And if you’re interested in becoming a financial supporter, you can do so by going to Patreon and becoming a patron.
00:51:48:16 – 00:52:20:12
Sarah Noll Wilson
Go to Patreon dot com slash Conversations on Conversations, where your financial support will completely go to support the team that makes this show possible. So not only can you feel good about that, but you get early episodes that are ad free and you get unique swag that is only available to our Patreon supporters. So speaking of the team that makes this show possible, let’s give them some love. To our producer, Nick Wilson, our sound editor Drew Noll, our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg, and the rest of the Snowco crew.
00:52:20:12 – 00:52:46:19
Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you. And just a big final thank you to Lauren Yee and Maddy Gabor. I find their energy and their passion absolutely contagious. And there’s something about the way they explain things that just makes sense. So my friends, this wraps up another episode of Conversations on Conversations. Thank you so much for joining, for showing up for me, for showing up for them, for showing up for yourself.
00:52:46:21 – 00:52:57:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
And remember when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So till next time, please be sure to rest, rehydrate and I’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.