Episode 110: A Conversation on Legacy Leadership with Robert Craven, Jr.

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and Rob Craven Jr. as they discuss the challenges and rewards of sustaining a family business for over a century. Rob reflects on the leadership lessons he’s learned while honoring the legacy of those who came before him.

 

 

ABOUT

Robert Craven, Jr. was born and raised in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and the surrounding suburbs. A graduate of Episcopal Academy, he earned a Bachelor’s degree from Syracuse University’s School of Management in 1973.

Robert joined the family business, F.A. Davis Co., working part-time before college. After graduating, he became a full-time college textbook representative, later promoted to National Sales Manager. In 1981, he took on the role of Editor in Chief and COO, and in 1989 was named President. Under his leadership, the company’s annual sales grew from $3 million to $50 million.

Outside of the publishing industry, Robert has been an active parent, coaching his children’s sports and serving as Treasurer for 13 years on the Board of Trustees at the Russell Byers Charter School. He and his wife, Michelle, have been married for 43 years and have three children and four grandchildren.

 

SHOW NOTES

• Website: www.fadavis.com

 

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah Noll Wilson (00:01)

Hello and welcome to Conversations on Conversations, where we explore topics to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, my friends, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me today is such a special guest, Rob Craven Jr., where we are going to be talking about legacy leadership in a way that might blow your mind. And I’m so excited. I’ve had the privilege of working with him and cannot wait for you to hear this conversation. So a little bit about Rob. Rob Craven Jr. was born and raised in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and the surrounding suburbs. A graduate of Episcopal Academy, he earned a bachelor’s degree from Syracuse University’s School of Management in 1973. Rob joined the family business F.A. Davis Company, working part-time before college, and after graduating, he became a full-time college textbook representative, later promoted to national sales manager, and in 1981, he took on the role of editor-in-chief and COO, and then in 1989, he was named president.

Under his leadership, the company’s annual sales grew from three million to 50 million. Outside of the publishing industry, Rob has been an active parent coaching his children’s sports and serving as treasurer for 13 years on the board of trustees at the Russell Byers Charter School. He and his wife Michelle have been married for 43 years and have three children and four grandchildren.

Rob, welcome to the show.

 

Rob Craven (01:33)

Good to be here. Good to see you, Sarah.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (01:34)

So it’s good to see you again. I always ask this question to get us started and you can answer however you want. What else do you want us to know about you?

 

Rob Craven (01:47)

I guess I want you to know that I’m enjoying what I’m doing. I have three children in the business. I feel fortunate every day I wake up that they’re in the business, that we do have succession lined up. And I want them to know how much I’ve enjoyed my 51 years full time at F.A. Davis.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (01:51)

A gloriously inspiring start to this conversation of like, I’m just loving what I’m doing, you know, and one of the ways so for our audience, just so you know how Rob and I got connected, we’ve been fortunate to do some development work and had the privilege of meeting Rob over the summer during some work and had a chance meeting in the hallway. And and there was something and okay now and you’re gonna have to correct me. So how many years has the company been around and how many leaders, how many presidents have there been? And, and folks, I want you to listen very clearly to this answer because it’s astounding to me.

 

Rob Craven (02:50)

We have been operating as medical publishers and health science textbook publishers for 145 years. And that span includes four presidents, all in the family. There were some issues. There was a bankruptcy in 1900, and there was an interim president for a short period of time there. And in 1979, there was an interim president. But essentially four presidents have run the company for 145.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (03:31)

That is unbelievable. so, you know, people who are listening, you understand now why I was so eager to get Rob to come on the show because one, to have a company legacy that’s lasted darn like nearly 150 years. I mean, not many companies have that sustainability and legacy, but then to have the leadership and the thing that inspired me and also another reason why I wanted you to come on the show. Well, lots of reasons. But one is to I want to spend a little bit of time talking about the history, particularly about your aunt Irene, which people will understand here in a minute why we’re being really specific about his aunt Irene, but also the fact that how you think about leadership is very human focused in a way that I don’t always see people with your tenured in this position. you know, I mean, we could do a whole podcast just on your Aunt Irene, but so take us back and give us, you know, a brief history of F.A. Davis, the starting and where, you know, and let’s talk about Aunt Irene, because she’s fascinating to me.

 

Rob Craven (04:45)

Yes, F.A. Davis was actually working for a British publisher in the United States who was a medical publisher and was selling and also recruiting authorship. And when he was in Philadelphia, which is really the center of medical publishing early on, he ended up running into Dr. John Shoemaker of Pennsylvania’s School of Graduate Medicine, who actually was a dermatologist and was eager to have a manuscript published. so the short story is that was F. Davis’s first publication and it started in Philadelphia. he lost his first wife. He did have one son. He met my Aunt Rene Craven, Aunt Irene Craven, you know, in that area and married her in 1895. She was 20, he was 45, and that’s the generational trick for having four presidents over a 145-year period. You have a widow who succeeds her husband at age 42.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (05:59)

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (06:14)

and runs the company for the next 43 years. So in effect, husband and wife ran F.A. Davis for the first 80 years of its existence. There were some interesting things that happened within the family. Aunt Rene was the oldest of 10 siblings. My grandfather, my father’s father, was the youngest of those 10. And he died when my father was 10 months old. He had, he had one, my father had one brother and my grandmother could afford really one son, two sons, was asking a lot. And Aunt Rene invited to, you know, to raise Bobby. And at age five, he moved to Crum Lynne, Pennsylvania and she groomed him to take over the business. you know, meanwhile, she was running the F.A. Davis Company, which she started, you know, before women’s suffrage and got through depression. And, you know, I think one of her, I think, key survival instincts was really not to trust anybody, because she sensed that everybody was trying to take advantage of the fact.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (07:26)

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (07:42)

that how could a woman actually succeed at what she’s doing? so she kept a sharp eye and she knew who not to trust and that was just short of everybody.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (07:55)

I mean, can we just pause for a second and again, what was the year when she took over? So F. A. Davis. So 1917. In a time again, when the time when women had literally no rights.

 

Rob Craven (08:03)

1917.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (08:13)

She was like, nope, I’m gonna run this company and I’m going to do this.

 

One of my favorite stories was hearing about how different people who may be supported or consultant were like, well, I want to be a part of it. And she was like, mmm, you’re gonna come in and try to take it over. And we’re not going to do that. And I just, here’s what I can’t like, you cannot hear about her story without thinking there is an incredible amount of chutzpah that she has. And, and I’m curious how

 

How has that shaped the company and how has that shaped you as being the next, like the most current generation leading this organization that quite frankly was founded on a sort of an act of rebellion against the system?

 

Rob Craven (09:04)

Well, you know, that can be answered on a number of different fronts. You know, personally, I mean, I got to know her. She died when I was 12. And my father would take my brother and sister and I over for Sunday visits, you know, at least once a month. And she doted over us like she couldn’t wait to see us again.

 

And, you know, I always felt that love. And then as I got to hear my father’s story, when I got a little bit older,

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (09:34)

Mm-hmm.

 

Rob Craven (09:41)

and they didn’t get along at all. Yeah, she was a sharp disciplinarian and really tried to completely control his life. I mean, first date, she’s in the back seat. I mean, he ended up, when he married my mother, they had to elope and he just had to tell her, I’m taking the car and I’m…

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (09:43)

Yeah, they had a very different relationship.

 

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (10:10)

I mean, you know, she didn’t want him to go into the service. World War II broke out. He was drafted in 1942, and he was in school at the time. He was at Drexel, and he got a deferment for a year. But he ended up enlisting so that he said he wanted to avoid the Army, he wanted to go into the Navy. And she didn’t want him to go into the military. I mean, she was…

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (10:15)

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (10:40)

very distraught with him on many levels. I mean, getting back to my visits with her, he finally told me, he said, it was great to see that she could express her love for me through you and through your brother and through your sister, but she could never do that directly to me.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (10:57)

Yeah.

 

Yeah, which, which on some level, right, makes sense when, you know, she forged the path she could one of my favorite stories. So I’m referencing the book From the Top of the Stairs and written by your father, right? Yeah. And

 

Rob Craven (11:18)

Yes.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (11:22)

And the story of like him being gone on, you know, on his military work, not telling her that he’s that he’s that he’s coming back, he shows up at the front door after some period of time and she just goes, you’re late. I just I love that. I love that so much. And then, you know, when when when being primed to be, you know, the next leader, the consultant that they brought in was basically like, here’s the deal. You’re going to get this business.

 

Rob Craven (11:34)

You’re late for dinner. You’re late for dinner.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (11:51)

But you basically just have to comply and agree with everything she says at this point, which is just it’s it’s you know, I’m sure wasn’t easy for for him. But there is something really inspiring for me to hear in that. One of the things that struck me, Rob, when you and I were having conversations is was how important it is to you to honor

 

her legacy. mean, obviously, there’s the legacy of F.A. Davis who started it. But when we had the conversation, there was so much respect and just wanting to make sure her story was heard, which I found so again, like just inspiring to talk about to say, yeah, this is this is a really important thing for folks to understand and know.

 

Rob Craven (12:44)

Yeah, and I think, you know, this sort of the oddity of her really wanting her nephew to succeed her. But then, you know, she didn’t even have a will when she was 80 years old. And, you know, and to have a peer of his who ended up becoming a lawyer, a good friend for, since high school, who ended up on the board of directors, who volunteered to take Mrs. Davis aside.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (12:53)

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (13:14)

and say, nobody is lending us any money because we have an 80 year old president. Why don’t you do something and promote your nephew? And so she did. And then it became time to put the will together. And he asked her what she wanted. And she said, well, I just want the company to go on in the name of my beloved husband. And you know, and that’s…

 

That’s what we live by.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (13:45)

Yeah, there’s, there’s a, there’s a sacredness to that. I mean, I, I wonder what what does that feel like for you to know that you are protecting that legacy?

 

In a time where quite frankly, things are so fast and changing and buyouts are happening and you know, the companies don’t last. I mean, we know that the lifespan of a company is so short. So what does that mean for you to be the bearer of that legacy now? Well, simultaneously honoring it, but making sure it sustains and moving it into the future.

 

Rob Craven (14:26)

Well, it is, as you coined before, it is the core of the legacy leadership, really, that has become my style because I grew to learn exactly how powerful it is to tell the story. And really, it’s when I think about my leadership style and what I learned from my father.

 

I he was not the micromanager. I mean, he was the raconteur that loved to tell a story. And so he taught me the power of telling these stories and to enrich the legacy. And especially with Aunt Rene, mean, F.A. Davis is about two-thirds women. And so the story of Aunt Irene is alive.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (15:07)

Hmm.

 

Yeah, yeah.

 

Rob Craven (15:23)

Her portrait has been in the main meeting room forever. And we’re renovating the building right now.

 

even though we’re a virtual company, we can set aside an area for a bigger meeting room and I can become kind of an archivist and tell the F.A. Davis story in a space that used to be customer service and accounting.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (15:50)

Yeah, yeah.

 

okay, so in just in total transparency, my dog is sitting by my feet right now and she is snoring very loudly. So if you hear unusual noises, it’s coming from Sally. But so one of the things that I’m curious about is you you have you have been with this company 51 years, you have been in a variety of leadership roles, you have led the helm for a number of decades.

 

How would you and I want to so okay, let me I want to get really clear about how I asked this How would you distill your leadership values and what I want to push you on is I don’t want to hear what you think I want to hear I don’t want you to say what you know, and I know you won’t but sometimes Because like I’ve witnessed your leadership. I’ve seen it. I’ve seen the impact and the ripple effect of it

 

But I’m curious to hear in your words, like, what are your values as a leader? What is the impact that you hope to make? What’s your true north, right? However you want to think about it.

 

Rob Craven (17:02)

I mean, you know, I mean, I don’t want to sound like a cliche, you know, it may come up as a cliche, but I, you know, I want the organization and the people in it to know that we care about them. We truly care about everything about them, their private lives, their involvement, their urge to become better at what they’re doing. I mean, you know, the company can go, can do.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (17:17)

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (17:31)

and survive in a world of big corporate environments and companies like us that have been bought up. it’s really the glue that keeps us together is that number one, we can create a culture, a caring culture.

 

I’m really kind of nervous about what we can do virtually and part of this renovation is to create a meeting place where somebody will get off next week’s departmental meeting and say, let’s meet in Philadelphia. Let’s do it person to person. But yeah, it’s meant to be a caring atmosphere and once I think people, I can see it. I can see how people respond to being cared for.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (18:01)

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (18:27)

And they want to do better. They want to do better. They love the legacy that we’re trying to sustain. it resonates with them. And that makes people want to do better at what they do and contribute that way.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (18:29)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

Yeah.

 

I am I fundamentally believe that care can be a competitive advantage. And it’s not something – I am curious to get your thoughts on this. What I’ve witnessed in my work and thinking about and observing and working with leaders and being passionate about this dynamic is that if you don’t care for your people, I don’t think you should be leading them because the consequences can be so significant. And, you know, and I heard so many stories, whether it was how

 

how the company or you supported somebody how it looked like to create flexibility for a really good employee, even though like the decision to say we figured out virtual, this benefits our people, let’s do this. One of the things I’m curious about, what are the traps that you think people in leadership positions fall into?

 

that get in their way or create barriers, right to the success of a company because again, like you have had the opportunity of supporting mentoring, you’ve had your own lived experiences. What are some of those pitfalls that you see folks fall into?

 

Rob Craven (19:58)

Well, I think probably the biggest one is like kind of a reflex when you can see that a direct report needs help, know, maybe the training didn’t work or whatever the issue is, you know, that there’s a tendency to micromanage, you know, and I know that covers a lot of territory, know, micromanaging, but, you know, it is a good way to…

 

And one of your favorite themes reflect on exactly how you’re coming off. mean, know, I mean, is your direct report, you know, listening to what you were saying, you know, because you’re just imposing what you know they need to do and that’s all you’re worried about. And so that becomes a trap.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (20:32)

Mm-hmm.

 

Hmm.

 

Rob Craven (20:55)

And I think trying to regulate exactly sort of the, you know, not to violate sort of the boundaries of letting people, you know, discover for themselves, you know, go through their own lumps. I mean, you know, because I think, I mean, I can see how my father did it and I was kind of.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (21:07)

Hmm.

 

Rob Craven (21:22)

resentful at the very beginning. said, why isn’t he telling me what to do? Well, you know, because he wanted me to fall down and get up again. And, you know, and even there was a vice president for a while who I reported to. I, I mean, and he was a very difficult individual to get along with.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (21:23)

Mm.

 

Sure.

 

you

 

Rob Craven (21:45)

CFO and he didn’t really understand sales and all that kind of stuff. you know, it wasn’t until I went out as a sales manager and I said some of the seasoned reps and says, listen, we know about your father and Aunt Irene. All he’s doing is trying to simulate what he went through by giving this guy life in the company. You know, so he’s grooming you this way. And that was one.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (22:03)

Hmm. Hmm.

 

Hmm.

 

Rob Craven (22:14)

those enlightening moments that I think that she liked to talk about.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (22:19)

You? I have to…

 

Repeat something you said, because I don’t know that I’ve ever heard it said so articulately. Well, there’s two things. Getting too focused on imposing what you think they should do. Even just the language of imposing feels suffocating. But so beautifully stated is how do you not violate the boundaries of people finding their own way and experiencing their own bumps?

 

I that I sit there and go, man, what would be possible if more people understood that? Or what would, you know, what would that look like? And and and I know and you know well enough that it’s not like you step into this role and you suddenly had everything figured out. What was what was one of the hardest leadership lessons you had to learn?

 

Rob Craven (23:17)

Well, it took me a while to get comfortable speaking in front of a group, number one. But then part of the difficulty was trying to get my arms around the two different relationships with the same person. that, you know, there’s a one-on-one relationship. And then there’s a relationship you have with people when you’re in a group. You know, and you realize, you know, that when you speak to them in a group, you can’t do it the same way that you’re doing.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (23:46)

Mm-hmm.

 

Rob Craven (23:47)

one-on-one because you have to do it, I mean, depending on what the topic is and what the moment in that conversation is. But I think that was difficult. I mean, that was difficult for me. And then, you know, just sort of get comfortable in a group knowing full well that this is an entirely different person. This is a body of 25 people. This isn’t 25 individuals. This is really 25 people together. And you have to talk to them as somebody completely different.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (24:09)

Hmm. Hmm.

 

Mm.

 

Mm That’s such a good I mean, that’s such a good reframe and a perspective and and and for some people, they struggle with the opposite. They can be in front of a group, but they don’t know how to show up one on one with curiosity, vulnerability, right? Candor. OK, so and you can feel free to answer this however you want. One of the things that is fascinating to me.

 

And and as a unique challenge when and so what I’ve observed in working with family legacy companies is There’s a different type. Let me rephrase this there can be a different type of pressure

 

when you are stepping into the role that a parent played or a close family member played and especially challenging if that person was beloved. Sometimes people are ready for the change, but usually if somebody’s been leading the organization for a real long time, there is sort of a beloved nature. What was that transition like for you?

 

And as so I’m going to ask it in two parts. So let’s start there. What was that transition like for you to find your own voice to step into your power again while honoring legacy, but also being able to to bring your unique gifts to the table that might have been different than your dad’s.

 

Rob Craven (25:46)

Yeah, well I think it was certainly an advantage that I got to work in the company for 10 years before I was reporting to my father. That I had to learn to build a relationship with the manager who I was reporting to. And I had to be sensitive to the fact that they were managing the owner’s son.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (25:56)

Hmm.

 

Mm.

 

Yeah, yeah. Were you aware of that? Were you aware of that when you were younger? Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (26:16)

And, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I really was. I mean, you know, because, I mean, they were anxious times. I mean, it wasn’t easy. I mean, it wasn’t easy. mean, you know, and you do, have a whole industry coming by and thinking, well, you know, this guy’s on easy street. And, you know, and it’s not, it’s not, you know, because there’s expectations.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (26:29)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (26:45)

There’s sort of watchful eyes. There’s the gossip hounds that want to snap judgment on whatever you just said and run it down the hall. I mean, there’s all of those kinds of things that you start to become aware of. But I got straight into sales. And when you’re fairly isolated, my father said, Aunt Rene, never let me go out with salesmen.

 

didn’t like the way of them. They womanize and they drink too much and you’re not going to be one of them. But then he had to manage them and he wasn’t allowed to go out and work with them. And so he ended up working like moonlighting for Encyclopedia Britannica and going door to door and seeing what it was like to sell. And these were commissioned salespeople.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (27:20)

Mm. Mm.

 

What?

 

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (27:43)

that he had to manage. And so that’s what he did. And so when he said, yeah, he sold it. Right, yeah. And so that he could know what it takes to sell or what it feels like to be in that role. And so when it came, so now I’m getting out of college and he’s saying, well, what you’re gonna do. I mean, this was really one of the few things that he said, this is an absolute.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (27:50)

So he went off and sold at night and like just to…

 

Rob Craven (28:11)

this is one thing you have to do and you have to go out into the field and talk to the customers and learn that way. I had to do it very indirectly and I’m saying this is the most important way for you to start is to learn the customers. And he was right, he was absolutely right. so I kind of got to build my own sort of self equity out in the field.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (28:37)

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (28:41)

people that had no idea who I was. You know, they had no idea that I was the son of the President. And I didn’t have all of that sort of ringing around. I was really with the company for three and a half years before I came into the home office and sort of had to deal with home office politics. And so that gave me quite a bit of momentum. So there was a little bit of advantage to that too. And just sort of getting your feet down and.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (28:44)

Yeah.

 

Sure.

 

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (29:11)

and understanding your role as the son of the boss, the SOB.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (29:17)

I love this story that, gosh, this speaks so much to him and his value. And because how easy could it have been for him or anyone, right? To go, I mean…

 

I’m the I’m the founders or you know, I’m the president’s kid, like I’m going to be I love that. He’s like, I need to understand this. So I’m actually going to sell some other books on the side under the like dark of the night. I I’m just imagining him like sneaking out and like, you know, entering being like, hey, where are you headed? Like, I’m just, you know, going to go for a walk and like knocking on doors. I mean, I’m probably over dramatizing it. But what an

 

Rob Craven (29:53)

Yeah. Yeah. Right.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (30:07)

What an amazing example of him understanding that in order for me to support them, I need to understand them. And for me to lead the company, I need to understand the customers. And I’m so tickled by this story, Rob. Like it’s going to be one that I share in some kind of future presentation because I just

 

That’s not something that you see often or you see enough of people going, I really need to understand them and I need to understand the customers too.

 

Rob Craven (30:46)

Yeah, you know, and I can’t ignore the fact that because my father and Aunt Rene didn’t get along, he was constantly trying to think about ways to do it better than she’s doing it because everything for her is just autocratically absolute.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (30:59)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Yeah. Yeah. And like, and that was learned at such a young age. I mean, this is, you know, he moved, he was right, lived with her at age. So from like five on like a lifetime of shaping. So as you think, okay, so knowing that you have your three children working for the company in different ways, and knowing that there will be a transition at some point.

 

Rob Craven (31:16)

Yeah. Yeah. Right.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (31:32)

How has your experience then shaped how you think about setting them up for success, setting other leaders up for success who are gonna eventually at some point take on the next chapter of the company? Because I know you’re thinking about it. I know how intentional you are.

 

Rob Craven (31:52)

First of all, I tell them not to look at the drama series succession, not even for one episode. I think, and it happened fairly organically, that they are in three different sides of the business. Robbie came through

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (31:58)

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (32:19)

sales and sales management and now he’s the director of sales and marketing. And Matthew came to information systems and he’s a great problem solver and now he’s running all the developers of our digital content that we’re selling. And Haley, who also came in through sales, is now an acquisitions editor, which now…

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (32:44)

Hmm.

 

Rob Craven (32:46)

used to mean acquiring rights for instructors that are writing books. And now it means just working with the authors in new editions, because now it’s all about value added.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (33:00)

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (33:02)

what next edition needs, what digital component, and what’s really gonna make it so that it’s sticky, it’s like we say, and they wanna renew it over and over again. So they’re in three distinct corners of the business right now, which really is very fortunate. And we have a very dynamic vice president who actually is…

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (33:11)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (33:32)

is the great demonstrator of how virtual publishing can work as he lives in England. He is Dutch by birth, you know, and got into publishing from a big corporate publisher that shipped him to the United States and he fell in love with the United States. Now he’s back in London, but anyway, but he is, you know, he’s the in-between leadership.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (33:38)

Mm-hmm.

 

Hmm. Hmm.

 

Rob Craven (34:01)

and and Robbie reports to him and Matt and Haley do not, but Menno is the most active in terms of the day-to-day part of the business.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (34:12)

Yeah, I can only imagine the amount of pride.

 

you must feel, you know, my I think about my something my father in law, who I’m very close with said, we just want you to be contributing members of society. Like that success as a parent is like, are you positively contributing members of society? And I know the pride I feel in my company as it grows. I know the pride I feel in my colleagues seeing them step and grow. And I can only imagine as a parent

 

then being able to witness that not just for your kids, but also just as a leader, seeing the company grow, seeing the, you know, the workers that have come on, the workers that continue to stay. What is that? What is that like for you to, you know, to look at it from the, from this angle, from this time of your life, to look back at all that has been accomplished?

 

Rob Craven (35:10)

It’s extremely rewarding. I mean, think when I ran into you last July, and we hadn’t met yet, and so you were trying to figure out who you were talking to, all you wanted was feedback for what happened this morning. And you asked me how long I’d been at F.A. Davis, and I said, well, they just honored me for 50 years last year. And you said, well, then you must be the owner.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (35:20)

Hmm

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah, so I did a terrible job of research because I just work with Juliet so much.

 

Rob Craven (35:49)

But yeah, mean, but we have, I mean, it is a remarkable kind of survival of so many different, know, forks of the road, challenges, know, ages where, you know, are we gonna get out of this? I mean, you know, I mean, I think, you know, back in the late 90s, you know, when dot com was going.

 

crazy and before the dot com crash I mean you know the level of student that getting into the health sciences was definitely deteriorating. Everybody was going for easy money and I mean I had two of my upper management folks who had been with me for quite a while I mean separately come into my office and say do you really think that we can get through this?

 

And that was one of those moments where I realized if I really got candid with them, I wasn’t going to do them any favors. And they wouldn’t have felt any better. And it was a leadership lesson to realize that sometimes you know that the outcome could be either way. And so you need to dwell on the positive. You need to dwell on how we’re going to get

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (36:59)

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (37:18)

to the more favorable end. You have to do that. Now, some might say, well, you know, that’s not really being that candid. Says, no, you’re just talking about, you’re dwelling on the reality of success. This is what success is gonna look like. And you have to say, yeah, we can make it because of this, this and this. And you know, in your heart, some things could have gone wrong. But you’re not doing the organization any favors.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (37:22)

Hmm.

 

Mm-hmm.

 

Rob Craven (37:46)

by being candid at that moment. so when I think about, you know, the pride I have in the organization and everybody in it, I think about there were several periods of time that lasted one or two or three years, you know, and in some cases we were just, I mean the .com crash did as much for health science publishing than anything because,

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (38:03)

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (38:13)

higher quality people got back into health sciences because they had nowhere else to go. And so, know, and that translates, I mean we all talk about how students don’t like to read books anymore and they don’t. But I mean, but you have a better student, they’re more likely to read books, they’re more likely to buy books, they’re more likely not to ignore the books in the bookstore that the instructor said, you’ll need this for this class.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (38:16)

Sure, yeah.

 

Mm-hmm.

 

Rob Craven (38:38)

You know, and so we ended up, you know, we had a real spike. All the publishers, all the boats rose in like 2001, 2002, and that was a, that really, that saved us. so these like conditions that are completely out of our control, you know, that end up, you know, when you reflect on them and you go, what would we have been if that hadn’t happened?

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (38:52)

Hmm,

 

Yeah.

 

Mm.

 

Rob Craven (39:06)

And so, yeah, there are a number of those over the 145 years. And my father’s done well to help us remember many of them, and I have a few of my own.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (39:15)

Hmm.

 

I so appreciate that. I appreciate hearing that as a fairly young, new business owner. And because it’s so it can be so easy to forget that there’s going to be peaks and valleys. And to your point, you know, one of the things I was thinking of when you talked about

 

How do we sort of stay connected to the possibilities? There’s a possibility this will fail. There’s also a possibility this can succeed. how do we dwell on that? Which I think your language there is very intentional. Like let’s just dwell on that for a second.

 

I one of my favorite leadership authors, Marty Linsky, he was a former Harvard professor, and we were having a conversation once. And one of the things he shared that has always stuck with me is that you have to balance the reality, like the brutal reality with relentless optimism. Like it’s it’s a both and and so I love hearing that. And I think it’s such a valuable reminder. And it’s interesting, because you actually answered a question that I was going to ask you, which is, you know, as you look at our just

 

the increasing uncertainty in the world and how quickly things are changing. you know, the role technology is playing, you know, playing in our our world. What do leaders need to be thinking about? And so on some level, you’ve already answered it. But I’m just curious, you know, for people who are listening, who are maybe new in leadership, maybe they’re, you know, in their middle of their career, as you look at the transition we’re in, what would be one

 

thing, like what would be one piece of advice or a mantra or a stay focused on this that you think would be really important for us to hold on to?

 

Rob Craven (41:12)

And I think it’s the essence, Sarah, of what you’re helping us with is to forge better relationships with everybody around you. it doesn’t have to be direct report, boss to underling or anything like that. It’s everybody that you come in contact with. You need to make the best relationship that you can with everybody. And so…

 

And if you go in with that intent, however aware at any given moment, there’s sort of the subconscious and the conscious, mean, if you can sort of try to spread goodwill here, there, and everywhere, it definitely compounds itself. It will. I’ve seen it happen. I’ve seen it happen because…

 

It’s the only way to really engender a feeling of trust within the organization. We haven’t used the word trust, but that’s what we’ve been talking about in terms of making relationships better and having people more forthcoming with what they’re thinking because they trust who’s listening.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (42:35)

Mmm, mmm, mmm.

 

I love that language of how do they trust who’s listening?

 

That that that’s a real gift. Rob, this has been an absolute treat. And exactly what I was hoping it was going to be and more. And I’m so excited. Now, as we wrap up our time, since it’s the first time you’ve been on the show, the question I ask all of our first time guests, because, you know, the whole intent of this is just how do we think differently about the conversations we have with ourselves and others? So what was a conversation, Rob, that you either had with yourself or that you had with someone else that was transformative for you?

 

Rob Craven (43:17)

Well, you know, there’s few of them.

 

But I can say, and just in talking about…

 

I guess I’d rather dwell on sort of the value of storytelling, because it really is the essence of what my father engendered in me. And the power of storytelling, and I’d wish someday that I could tell a story as well as he could, but I think I can write as well. I’m not sure if can speak it as well. But the power of telling the stories is to also tell people how much you care about them with really…

 

the attention you put into the story. When it really resonates with them, if you articulate it just right, it has a caring and trusting kind of build to it that makes storytelling so powerful. so I think, and I was very fortunate that I got three years with my father from age 98 to 100.

 

after we lost my stepmother. And so I really had him to myself after that. And you know, I would go over and visit and he was still so lucid and I could send him down a rabbit hole here and there and he’d tell me another story.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (44:45)

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (44:53)

if I could just cue them one way or another, all of a sudden I’d be hearing something I’d never heard before. But I mean, it’s the power of that. I took notes, I’ve got a file. I can’t wait to tell the history of the company. I can’t wait to tell them in the new renovation that we have that I have so many decisions to make on.

 

different threads that we have and you know if we put a timeline on this big two-story wall you know what’s the thread going to be? Is it going to be the publishing piece? Is it going to be a people piece? Is it going to be a family piece? I mean there’s so many different ways to go with it and so you know and we do have archives of books that go back all the way and so many of those will be on display but anyway but I guess it’s

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (45:24)

Hmm.

 

Yeah.

 

Rob Craven (45:51)

It’s the power of storytelling and taking the time to tell a good story because people are sort of short with, yeah, there he goes again. There he’s going off again, telling them. But if it’s the right place and the right time and you’ve got a listening audience, you can build a level of trust.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (45:54)

Hmm.

 

Hmm, beautiful. That feels like such a gorgeous place for us to wrap up our conversation. Rob Craven Jr., thank you so much for saying yes to me in the hallway. And when I was bouncing out and leaving and you were coming into the club, I know it took us a bit to get this scheduled, but I really appreciate having you on the show. So thank you.

 

Rob Craven (46:31)

You

 

Now, well, thank you, Sarah. It was great to be here.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson (46:42)

Our guest this week has been Rob Craven Jr. And I don’t know about you all, but there are a number of phrases and the ways that he described things that just I want to frame. The one that’s sticking with me right now is how do we trust who is listening to us? And boy, you can understand why that is sticky to my heart.

 

And as always, my friends, we want to hear from you. What resonated for you? What came up? What are you curious about? Send me an email at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. Again, podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com, where I read and respond to all the messages we receive.

 

And if you liked what you heard or have been listening for a while, please consider supporting the show. There’s two ways you can do it that are incredibly meaningful for us. The first is to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us to be able to increase our exposure so we can continue to have powerful conversations like the one we did today. Also, if you want to support the team that makes this show possible, consider becoming a patron.

 

You can go to patreon dot com slash conversations on conversations where your financial support, no matter how big or small goes to support the team that makes this show possible. Also, you get early episodes that are ad free and you get some limited edition swag. So that’s a win, win, win.

 

Speaking of the crew, speaking of the team that makes this show possible, to our producer, Nick Wilson, our sound editor, Drew Noll, and the rest of the SnowCo crew. And just a big final thank you to Rob Craven Jr. for bringing his heart, bringing his humanity, and bringing his stories. Well, my friends, that concludes this episode of Conversations on Conversations. And remember,

 

When we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So, till next time, please be sure to rest, rehydrate, and I’ll see you again very soon.