Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Dr. Julie Ressler as they explore the imposter phenomenon in men. Topics include the impacts of family, gender, and culture, and how leaders can make a difference by embracing recognition and open conversations.
ABOUT
Dr. Julie Ressler decided early on, around the age of 9, that she wanted to be a teacher, however exactly what kind of a teacher wasn’t established until later in life. Growing up in northeast Iowa, her passion for education and helping people grow and learn was influenced by her parent’s chosen professions of high school teacher and business owner. Observing these two amazing role models encouraged her to pursue a career as a teacher of adults-which in her words are “little kids” in bigger bodies.
Over the past thirty years, she has been a proud member of the Des Moines community working in banking and insurance in various corporate training roles. She is currently the AVP-Insurance Operations Training at Athene USA, where she leads a talented team of performance improvement professionals.
She earned a B.S. from Iowa State University and a master’s degree from Drake University, both in adult education. She’s certified in Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) and Prosci Change Management. Julie completed her doctorate degree in educational leadership from Drake University, May of 2024.
Her greatest accomplishments include raising two daughters and a son. Lauren (29) is a school psychologist with the Juneau, Alaska school district, Madelyn (27), a graphic designer at Athene in Des Moines, and her 22-year-old son, CJ served as an Army Ranger and is currently pursuing a degree to serve as an anesthesia nurse practitioner.
SHOW NOTES
- LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/juliecmahlstedt
- The Influence of Personal and Career Situations on Men’s Experiences with Imposter Phenomenon by Julie C. Ressler
- Clance Imposter Scale: paulineroseclance.com/pdf/IPscoringtest.pdf
- Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome by Ruchika Tulshyan and Jodi-Ann Burey: hbr.org/2021/02/stop-telling-women-they-have-imposter-syndrome
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of conversations on conversations, where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host friends, Sarah Noll Wilson, and joining me today is one of my colleagues, Dr Julie Ressler, and we’ll be exploring the research that she has done on imposter syndrome and men. So let me tell you a little bit about Julie. Dr Julie Ressler decided early on, at the age of nine that she wanted to be a teacher. However, she wasn’t sure exactly what kind of teacher until later in life. Her passion for education and helping people grow and learn was influenced by her parents chosen professions of high school teacher and business owner, and observing these two amazing role models encouraged her to pursue a career as a teacher of adults, or in her word, as little kids in bigger bodies. Over the past 30 years, she has been a proud member of the Des Moines community, working in banking and insurance in various corporate training roles. She is currently the AVP of insurance operations training at Athene USA, where she leads a talented team of performance improvement professionals. She earned a BS from Iowa State University and a master’s degree from Drake University, both in adult education. She’s certified in Myers Briggs Type Indicator and Prosci change management, and she completed her doctorate degree in Educational Leadership from Drake University in May of 2024. Her greatest accomplishment include raising two daughters and a son, Lauren, who’s a school psychologist with the Juneau Alaska School District, Madeline, who’s a graphic designer at Athene in Des Moines, and her 22 year old son, CJ, who’s served as an Army Ranger and is currently pursuing a degree to serve as a nurse practitioner. Welcome to the show, Dr Julie Ressler.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be on your show, Sarah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We have, our paths have crossed for a number of years, informally, indirectly and and then we reconnected with some work that we were doing with your organization, and I got to learn all about the amazing research that you were doing to complete your doctoral degree. And so I’m so excited to talk about that. But before we get into the brilliant insights that you’re you’re going to share, what else do you want people to know about you?
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yeah, thank you, Sarah. Well, first of all, I just need to take a moment and thank you for the work that you’ve done at Athene. You know that you’ve provided successful training when people are still talking about it months after you’ve left our organization, so you definitely had an impact here at Athene, and we appreciate all your hard work. So thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We appreciate it. Welove working with you all.
Dr. Julie Ressler
It’s it’s a great place. It’s a great place to work. You know, one thing I wanted to share is that when I was working on my doctorate degree, I didn’t think anyone here in corporate America would actually care, but I have been pleasantly surprised at the acknowledgement and the celebration from our leadership group here at Athene. It made me think about Kouzes and Posner’s work with the Leadership Challenge. I don’t know how many people are familiar with that, but the fifth of their five findings, you know, they found that modeling the way, inspiring a shared vision, challenging the process and enabling others to act. The fifth one was encouraging the heart. And this experience has been just such a way for me to realize that how important it is for leaders to step back and take those moments of accomplishment and celebrate those not only individually, but with teams as well. And I just have to say, I’ve been pleasantly surprised at just the acknowledgement. I told my boss throughout this entire process, I said, No one’s going to care. No one’s going to care here. If I worked in an academia environment, people would be celebrating and acknowledging that, and I honestly thought it would be just another day, and it’s been really, really, I’m just so grateful for the acknowledgement and the celebration here at a corporate environment.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I, you know, I – Well, one, I love that for you. And what a good example of when we talk about recognition and appreciation and validation and seeing people that, you know, celebration and recognition doesn’t always have to be for what people are doing for the workplace, it could be for things they’re accomplishing outside of it, and just hearing you talk, even the language you used of, Well, I didn’t think anyone would care, how powerful it was that they recognized the the efforts it took. And it is, I mean it, it is in a significant accomplishment. It is not an insignificant amount of time and energy. And to do that while you’re also working full time and having other responsibilities is it’s, yeah, it’s remarkable. So I love, I love hearing that.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yeah, thank you. It was a good reminder for me as a leader, to make sure that we pause and take that time to celebrate, even if it’s a small accomplishment. It’s actually one of the ways to help people overcome the imposter syndrome.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, so, so let’s Okay, so let’s dig into that and and you know, you your final dissertation was focused on the imposter phenomenon, specifically looking at it through the lens of male experience, or men’s experiences, but first I just, I want to kind of go back, and I’m curious to hear because I know you and I talked a little bit that day at that training last year. But what was it about the realities, or just, yeah, what was it about the imposter phenomenon that was such a draw for you to want to dig in deeper.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Sure. The imposter phenomena was actually it’s actually been studied since almost 100 years, so since the 1970s, but the groups that were normally studied were women and marginalized groups. So when I first heard about the imposter phenomena, it was actually at a work event here at Athene, and I’d always known about the term the imposter phenomena, but I hadn’t really dug in deep to learn more about it. And as I was thinking about what do I want to study for my dissertation, we were having a session here at Athene, and that topic came up, and it just really piqued my interest. So as I was doing my research, I was following along what most researchers were doing, and that is studying women and marginalized groups, and it wasn’t until my committee said, you know, this is great, and you’re able to tap into a lot of the research that’s already been published, but we want you to do something unique. We want you to study men. And I immediately said, I don’t think I want to do that. And I they pushed back, and they said, Well, you know, there’s been enough research on women in marginalized group. So it was actually a serendipitous meeting that very next Saturday, I was at a wedding reception, and a colleague of mine or a friend of mine asked me how my research was coming along. And I said, you know? I said, it’s been, it’s it’s been great, but I’ve now been challenged to adjust who I’m studying and to study men. And his immediate response was, that’s fantastic. I will be part of your study, and I can give you five names of men that I know and work with daily, that we talk about the imposter phenomena all the time. So that was kind of my sign that I guess this is a good thing to study. It’ll be different. It’ll be something a little bit newer. And that’s when I was like, this is the right this is the right direction to head.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, that’s so interesting. I mean, I might lovingly push back on the committee and say that, you know, there’s always like value in researching more and understanding especially like groups that are historically marginalized, but, but there is value to how do we expand? So, you know, the word imposter syndrome has, you know, been used a lot. It’s talked about a lot. It’s something that we’ve explored on this show. And I’m curious, you know. So first, you’ve educated me on even reframing the language, but just for purposes of our listeners. Because again, keep in mind, we have global listeners. People may be familiar with it, they may not, but from your perspective and the research you have completed, how do you define the imposter syndrome? And then my follow up question to that is, and why is it valuable for us to reframe it from syndrome to phenomena?
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yes, thank you for asking. There were two researchers back in the 70s, Pauline Clance and Imes, another researcher, and they actually said that we are calling this the imposter syndrome, but we know that, and at that time, it was mostly studying women, and that’s why they recommended to change the name from imposter syndrome to imposter phenomena, because, as they said, women don’t need another thing wrong with them, and they felt like the term syndrome was had a negative connotation, and was labeling women at that time with the syndrome, or yet another thing wrong with them. So I really shifted my language and referred to it as the imposter phenomena versus syndrome, because I agree with that. I thought that was such a great the thing that they identified there was just really important that even labeling it as syndrome does give it a negative connotation.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, like, it implies that it’s like some disease you have exactly, instead of, instead of something you experience and and so, you know, one of one of our brilliant guests, who’s a dear friend of mine now, but Neha Sampat, she’s, you know, she’s done a fair amount of research on this, and I know she’s particularly interested in exploring it through the lens of like, immigrant experiences or first gen folks. And one of the things that was really provocative for me was this idea that a lot of times imposter syndrome or imposter phenomenon, I’ll start using that language, shows up when you’re in a space that wasn’t designed for you.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
When you’re, and so I’m curious to hear your thoughts on that, and then what did you find in your research? Either to you know, align with that, expand on that challenge that. Because that, I will say that when I have shared that with people, whether it’s different nationalities, different identities, the relief I see in people’s shoulders when, when I go, Well, here’s the perspective, right? Like it usually shows up when you’re in a system that wasn’t created for you.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s like this relief of, oh, there’s not something wrong with me. So I would love, I just, I was, I’ve been eager to get your thoughts on that.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yeah, I think that what you’re speaking to really speaks to one of my sub my themes of my findings, and that was family and gender influences. So couple of the people that were in my study, one of them grew up in poverty, and another one grew up in a family that were food insecure, or they moved a lot. And so he actually scored the highest we used, I used the CIPS imposter scale, which is the Clance Imposter Scale. So before we even moved into the interview portion, we had each participant took that scale, and then if they scored a 60 or higher, then they moved on to the interview portion. So this particular person, as who was in my study, he scored an 81 which is intense feelings of the imposter phenomena. And he talked a lot about his childhood. He’s now an executive in a very professional role, but he said that every single day, the influences of not having enough. That’s that feeling of scarcity. And then how is he now in this position in a senior level executive so those feelings of the influences the family, influences, they don’t go away, and he still struggles with that every day, and feels like that contributes to his intense feelings of the imposter phenomena.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. It’s, I mean, this is, this is such a simple, like, not necessarily, life challenging situation, but, I mean, that’s something that I know I’ve experienced. I didn’t come from money. I didn’t right, like, my, my upbringing was, you know, very blue collar. And even just this week, I was at this incredibly wealthy country club working with a client, and I found myself even eating in the restaurant, being like, I don’t belong here. This isn’t, you know? So, so let’s, so actually, let’s, let’s take a step back, and I want to hear, you know, what was your approach to this research, what did the study look like? And then, then I want to spend some time really digging into the themes and the stories that you heard. So,
Dr. Julie Ressler
Sure.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, because you were mentioning some of the assessments. But like, let’s just, let’s just invite everyone to go. This is what it looks like to do this kind of research and how you approached it.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Right. So the Clance Imposter Scale is actually available to anyone. You can Google it online. It’s 20 questions, and it’s on a five point Likert scale. So you can actually get results pretty quickly. If you feel like you have feelings of what I refer to imposter phenomena as IP, for simplicity. So if you feel like you have feelings of IP that Clance Imposter Scale is a great place to start.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We will find a link to that listeners, and we will post it in the show notes so that you can take that. So I just want to, Nick, if we can make a note of that.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yeah, there are several assessments out there. I found that the Clance Imposter Scale was just one that I felt like was was heavily researched and it’s been around for so long. That’s why I chose that one. Originally, I had 14 people that expressed interest in taking part in the research. I think when they realized that it would be the assessment plus three interviews, so three online, face to face interviews, and then I had that cut off if they had reached the score of 60 or above, then that’s when those individuals went on for the three interviews. But it was interesting. Sarah, the interview portion, I absolutely loved it. I was pleasantly surprised at how vulnerable and how open the men were. I even had one participant that we would finish up our interview, and then he would follow up with an email giving me more information. I think he just needed more reflection time, and I feel like it was really therapeutic for them, because they said, several of them said, you know, I’ve never really talked about this. This has given me such an opportunity to express some of these feelings of anxiety and self doubt. And you know, my self esteem, you know, it was such a common thing, the self esteem was my strongest theme that I found self doubt comparison, just comparing themselves to other leaders, you know, looking up to leaders, wondering if they can ever be in those positions because of those feelings of self doubt. So it was just fascinating to me. I I had to coach myself, you know, not to over show some expression of shock, just because they were so revealing. But it was just, it was just for me, it was an eye opening experience that, you know, I think I was even, you know, growing up in the business world. I think just that the masculinity right? They were, they were raised to be strong individuals, and don’t talk about your feelings at work, and don’t express that if you have any sense of self doubt in your ability to perform this job, we certainly don’t want to talk about that at work. And it was an opportunity for them to share, obviously, a safe environment. They were all given pseudonyms, so we were not using their real names, and I respected confidentiality. But there was another person, back to your other point. Your point about being in that exclusive Country Club, another one of the participants said that he believes that his social skills have held him back from being successful in a corporate environment because he just didn’t know. He didn’t know how to use the fork properly. He didn’t know which spoon or which utensil to pull from when he was dining with other executives. So he really felt like his family of origin affected his ability to be successful in a corporate environment.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, so what? So let’s, I mean so, and I appreciate you also, you know, talking about the size of the sample, and just, just for purposes of, you know, being, again, really transparent with where the stories came from. You know, was there diversity of identities, like, like, geographic diversity, or just because I want to honor the fact that if, if it was largely, say, Midwest white men, like, I want to name that because we know that the lived experience of black men or gay men versus straight men might look very different. So what was some what was the demographic, like breakdown of your group?
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yeah, I’m so glad you asked that question. The the demographic breakdown was white men in the mid midwest. I do, if I had to do this over again, I think I would have really tried to have a more diverse background. Interestingly enough, I did have a black man attend my dissertation defense, and he asked me the same question, and I It was eye opening for me. I will say, though, that one of my participants is blind, and I feel like, you know, in the in the span or the spectrum of DEI, I’m not sure that we spend enough time talking about abilities and disabilities. So for me, you know, even though I probably would have liked to have had more of a diverse background, I did appreciate the fact that I did have someone with more of an ableism topic.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Dr. Julie Ressler
There and, and his answers were quite interesting as well. You know, family of origin growing up. And, you know, someone even told him one time that you the only reason that you got this job is because you’re blind, and it just, you know, cuts to the heart. It’s just, it’s so sad what people will say sometimes. But that then contributed to his feelings of imposterism. Do I belong here? If people think I’m only here because I’m blind? Did I really earn this position? Or am I only here because of my disability?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s the it’s the argument we’re seeing right now, like, well, they were just a DEI hire. And like, realizing how, well, one, how inaccurate and wrong that is, but also how debilitating that can be for people who are on the receiving end, right? And so, no, I appreciate your honesty. And I also just, again, like, I want to be really transparent about that. And, you know, and when we talk about diversity, it isn’t just race, it’s age, it’s right, like economic and so knowing, I again, I just wanted to honor and clarify, like the scope and the scale
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And not to dismiss or minimize the results, but to be very clear about who the group was, because I you know, as I’m listening to you, I’m like this, Do you want to, like, would you ever want to expand it? Because it could be a really powerful, you know, opportunity, but okay, but that’s for later. What were the keys, so from the group of individuals that you did interview, what were the key findings? And you’ve spoken to them, but let’s just like, state them a little bit more succinctly, because I want to make sure I don’t miss any what were the findings?
Dr. Julie Ressler
Sure. Can I add one more thing, too? You mentioned ageism, and one of the participants is, was, or is currently 65 and that was something that he noted too. He said, I fear that my competency is failing because of my age, and he always prided himself of being the most informed person in the room, the person that had all that knowledge. And for him to again express the feelings of, I feel like an imposter now because I joined groups, and I feel like they have more knowledge, not only in the technology space, but within his industry as well. So that also was so interesting to me that you know that ageism piece plays a role in having those feelings of IP or imposter phenomena.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that’s really it’s not surprising, right?
Dr. Julie Ressler
Right, right, yeah. So my key findings, I did, I had three themes and seven sub themes, and the first theme that was actually felt by all seven participants, and it was really clear, was that feeling of self esteem, self esteem or lack of self esteem, self doubt, was really strong, that that feeling of comparison, comparing themselves to peers, comparing themselves to senior leadership. I had one person in my study that, he was in a position and was comparing himself to his peers and felt like he wasn’t performing at the same level. He actually pursued another job outside of the organization, because he didn’t think he was performing as well as his peers. He ended up leaving that organization. But right before he left, he was given his final performance review, and he was actually earning the top score. He was actually earning a five out of a five point scale. So was shocked to learn that, you know, he really didn’t need to pursue employment outside of that organization, because he was doing really well, but based on his own comparison to his peers, he didn’t feel like he was
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Dr. Julie Ressler
So there’s all kinds of implications there. You know, obviously the manager wasn’t doing a good job of having ongoing conversations with them to keep him up to date on his performance. But I just thought, you know, that organization lost a talented individual because of his feelings of IP and not feeling like he was performing at the same level of his peers.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s interesting.
Dr. Julie Ressler
And then so self esteem, the the next key theme was fear of failure, so not living up to expectations, which then, as a result of that, a lot of them would over prepare for things, almost to a detriment, where they became one of the one of the participants was a speaker, and he said that I over prepared so much for my speech that I came I sounded scripted. It wasn’t me, it wasn’t who I was. So because of that fear of failure, he over prepared. And there’s actually, there’s an imposter cycle that is super interesting. And when someone is assigned a task, if they’ve got feelings of anxiety, self doubt or worry, they usually go one of two directions. They will over prepare, or they’ll procrastinate. If they over prepare, they feel like their success is due to effort. If they procrastinate, they feel like their success is due to luck, and then they’re not great about receiving that positive feedback, so they discount that positive feedback, which then just goes back to the cycle of perceived fraudulence, increased self doubt, depression, anxiety, and the next time they’re given that task, they go through that cycle again. They also might self handicap, and that fear of failure or the fear of success is real as well.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. What might that look like? Like to self sabotage?
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yeah. So you know, discounting praise or if some if a manager or a leader tries to say, you know, that’s that was just a great job, or you did a great job on that project, they’ll just discount that praise. Or think, well, that couldn’t have been me, or it was just by luck, or I’m in this position because I knew the right person, or I got really lucky. You know, that’s really the hallmark of IP is that I don’t deserve to be here. I’m here because I networked with the right people. They put me in this position. I had one individual tell me that his mentor is preparing him to take over this person’s role once this person retires. And he said, that puts me into panic mode, if I’m in that position, once this person retires, will I be the demise of this organization? Will it be because of me and my lack of skills and other people look around and he asks himself, What am I doing at this table? I don’t belong at this table. The third main theme was family, and then gender influences. So family of origin played a huge role in how they see themselves as adults working in corporate America. And most of the participants worked in either corporate America or one was a professor, so they had professional roles. Every single participant had an advanced degree, with the exception of one. So these are highly trained, highly educated people with either strong or intense feelings of IP.
Sarah Noll Wilson
One of the things that’s coming up for me, because I know you know, whenever you do a research project, you’re you know, you identify the limitations of the project, but then you also put together possibilities for future, right, exploration and future research. And there’s a part of me that’s like, how interesting would it be to talk to the people who scored low?
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
To try to tease out and go, So why? You know, like, what? What you know, like, your upbringing, your experience, your cultural background, you know, whether you are part of the you know, again, if you’re a part of the dominant group and you’re familiar with the norms and right, like, you understand, like, I just, I just, that’s, I was like, Oh, that would be really, really interesting to, see,
Dr. Julie Ressler
I agree.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, like to see that as as future study. What, what surprised you, you know, from the individuals that you were able to talk with and capture their stories, from what was something that surprised you on this journey?
Dr. Julie Ressler
So many surprises, I would say, you know, the first one was just how vulnerable the men were willing to be. You know, when I started in in corporate America, 38 plus years ago, I’ll say 38 you know, I was always told you need to go take golf lessons. You need to watch the NFL football games on Sunday so that when you get to the office, you can have those conversations with the men. You can talk about your golf game, you can talk about football, and you can be with that crowd. And so that was kind of my I probably had a bias towards that, to think, Okay, I need to change who I am in order to fit into this box. And after talking to the men and how vulnerable they were and how they had the exact same feelings that I have at times, I think that really made me step back and just think, you know, we’re all humans here. We all have struggles. It doesn’t matter if you’re in an executive vice president role. It doesn’t matter if you’re in a vice president role. It doesn’t matter if you’ve achieved very high level degrees. So I think, although I probably knew that in the back of my head, having these conversations just really highlighted that, and it was kind of refreshing, honestly, just to hear that they were willing to to admit that even though they had been in these roles for a very long time and may have been socialized for that masculinity role, that they still have some of those challenges too. They have that self doubt. They have those feelings of, I shouldn’t, I don’t belong here. I’m I’m not, I’m not fit for this position.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s, I mean, that that, I mean, you talked about family of origin, but I mean, let’s be real the gender roles. Um, you know, there’s, there’s limit, like, it limits all of us with the gender roles. And that’s something that we’ve had a number of conversations on. You know, whether it’s exploring this idea of men in intimacy, men in mental health, that, and again, let’s be really transparent. We’re – or clear. We’re talking about this through the lens of Western American culture. Or like, yeah, of just like American culture, of it’s the worst thing you could be as a man is weak and emotional, and even, even if that’s not something that you believe in to be true, and even if maybe you grew up in a family where that wasn’t true, the air we breathe, the water we swim in, right, continually perpetuates that. And the thing that I find interesting in our work is sometimes it’s it’s it’s the men who were the most resistant, that when given the space to be safe, to connect with themselves and others, experience the biggest transformation and and, you know? Because, I mean, all humans, right? We want to, we want to be seen. We want to be connected. We even if we’ve been, I don’t know, told our entire lives, like it’s not as important to be in community or be in relationship or intimacy, you know, but that that’s a biological drive for us.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, the the other parts about the family of origin that I would like to mention too, is if these, if they’re reflecting back on how they grew up, or maybe one of the parents, or both of the parents didn’t go to college, those influences that also came out in conversation. It wasn’t an expectation. One of the participants said it wasn’t an expectation for me to go to college, and because my parents didn’t, and now that I’ve done that, and now I have a master’s degree, sometimes they it sounded like he wanted to, you know, it’s almost like they have to not apologize for that. But if that wasn’t the expectation, he achieved this great thing, but it always, at least, in his words, wasn’t something that was necessarily celebrated, because that wasn’t the expectation.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, sure, and, and I would imagine, I know, in talking with other individuals who’ve been in similar situations, that you know, in some cases it’s celebrated right because it’s a,
Dr. Julie Ressler
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But in other cases, it’s like you think you’re better than us now, because,
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, and like in your you’re constantly navigating these, these norms and beliefs that, that that people have about situations. I mean, this is, this is when we talk about privilege, right? Like, it’s a word that gets really sticky and uncomfortable for some people, but the truth of the matter is, like we all experience varying levels of privilege, or or lack of privilege, right? And when you, if you were never around corporate America, if you never experienced that, if you don’t know, like, what the social norms are, I mean, again, those you know whether they’re right or wrong, of like, what forks to use? What you know, because I’m like, I don’t care, whatever. Is it a fork, use it. But like, in some situations, and especially in like, you know, corporate America, which is very still, like, white male dominated, like, if you don’t know the rules, and if you don’t know, like, you’re at a disadvantage. It doesn’t mean that, like, it’s just recognizing that you like, if you, if you have inside scoop to the rules, you’re, you’re able to adapt faster, you’re able to assimilate faster. You’re, you know, and, and even that is like, as I say that I’m like, I don’t want a culture where people assimilate, but we know that that is the reality, right? Like,
Dr. Julie Ressler
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, what? You know, you talked about this a little bit, but I’d love to hear more about what was this experience like for the participants. You know, because I’m I’m not surprised that people felt more comfortable because it was like in greater service. So it wasn’t like, Oh, I’m talking about me, I’m talking about me, but I’m doing it to serve you and benefit you, right? Like, so I can imagine some – some of the context of why people felt even more comfortable and safer to be able to share this. But yeah, I was just curious. Like, what were some of the insights?
Dr. Julie Ressler
Sure.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Because I imagine, and let me just test an assumption. I could imagine that for some this might have been the first time they articulated some of these out loud to another person.
Dr. Julie Ressler
You are 100% correct, Sarah, and that is part of, I believe, why they were so open and vulnerable is that it felt like they had a lot of kind of pent up feelings that they’ve never been able to express before. And part of overcoming IP, which could probably be another podcast, because there’s, there’s a lot out there, but yet, I feel like there we need more work on that. But part of overcoming IP is to actually have those conversations, and especially with other people that experience it, because then you can talk about your experience. And one of the other recommendations is to journal. So if someone prefers to write versus speaking out loud, that’s another good way to overcome and reflect on patterns of behavior that you may have. So it was, I think, therapeutic for them to speak out. And I mentioned there was one person in the study who, I think he would speak and then he would reflect, and then he would send the follow up email with I also thought about these 10 things. And I think for him, it was very therapeutic to just continue to type through his thoughts and his feelings and send that over, which was very helpful for my research as well, because that’s when he got even deeper into things, and not just what came first to mind.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. I, you know, a lot of times when people talk about imposter syndrome, imposter phenomena. When you read articles on it, there’s such a focus on the individual having to change things, you know. And I’m thinking about the article. It was a Harvard Business article that came out a number of years ago, it was written by Ruchika. Actually, I don’t know if I could know how to pronounce her last name, but it was she and another author. Do you know what? You know what article I’m referencing.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yeah, I have it right here.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, perfect.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yes. Ruchika is R U C H I K A, and then her last name is spelled T U L S H Y A N and Jodi-Ann Burey. Stop Telling Women That They Have Imposter Syndrome is the title of the article, yes, I really enjoyed that one too.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, and the reason I bring that up, and, you know, and that’s, that’s such a great article, was because it was like, the problem isn’t with us, you know, the the culture like, so if we look at it through the lens of gender, our our American culture, doesn’t, um, isn’t supportive of, like, highly confident women, they aren’t supportive,
Dr. Julie Ressler
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
of women who are assertive, women who are ambition with, you know, and then, and then, likewise, right? Because the gender roles, there are biases and barriers against men who are maybe more sensitive, who aren’t career driven, who are more emotional, like more comfortable sharing their emotions. So, so while there is work to understand the different factors at play that have influenced your thinking as an individual, right, like and that’s powerful, but we also have to be aware of the system we’re in that perpetuates this. And so I just would love to get your thoughts on, you know, especially knowing that so many of our folks that listen are leaders, and they’re, you know, whether they’re managers and over a department, like a business unit or HR. So what are things we could be thinking about as leaders, as an organization, in helping create environments that are more conducive, where imposter phenomenon is less likely to show up.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Sure.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And maybe that’s not even a realistic ask, I don’t know. I’d love to hear your thoughts.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yeah. So it was actually my first, one of my recommendations for practice, because there’s a lot of articles and a lot of information that you can find today that talks about IP there’s not a lot about how do we start to work towards either analyzing the systems that we are working and living in, and how do we continue to work on, maybe not 100% overcoming this, but how do we get to a space where we can show up to work and feel like we belong and feel like we we have a seat at that table, that executive table. And it was interesting, I in my in my defense, I did, I did talk about the important role that leaders play and that they should look at cognitive behavioral strategies. And, you know, talk through these things in the one on ones. And then one of my advisors pointed out, and I thought it was brilliant. You know, how many people want to admit to their leader that they have feelings of IP? And I thought, You know what, unless there’s this incredible level of trust, that would also be very difficult, because if that leader owns your performance review and your salary increase, your rating, your salary increase for the next year. Most likely you’re not going to say, you know, I really don’t feel comfortable here, and I don’t feel like I can do this job
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right. It’s super risky and
Dr. Julie Ressler
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Let’s be real. There’s a whole lot of people in positions of like, significant authority who haven’t experienced, don’t want to acknowledge that they’ve experienced, right, like, self doubt or, you know, and I can’t tell you how many times I’m in conversations where it’s like, well, they just gotta suck it up. Oh, suck it up. And it’s like,
Dr. Julie Ressler
yeah,
Sarah Noll Wilson
Let’s get let’s get curious about that.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Right. But I do think the the most important role that a leader can play, maybe not even if someone doesn’t feel comfortable admitting to their leader, you know, hey, I’ve got these really strong feelings of IP, but, you know, leaders, just, I think in general, I started off the conversation about recognizing accomplishments and celebrating those accomplishments, you know, depending on their the person’s behavioral style. You know, I love Myers Briggs. I’m sure you’re familiar with it. You know, thinkers and feelers like to be recognized in different ways. So, you know, a thinker appreciates at the end of the project being recognized and acknowledged, where feelers along the way need those check ins and that continuous support of you’re doing a great job. Keep up the great work. I just think, acknowledging those personal achievements, celebrating those successes. I know as a leader myself, I’m continuously self talking. Am I taking enough time to not only celebrate success as a team, but then individually? And have I done my work and asking them, how do they specifically want to be celebrated or recognized? So for individuals, you know, if, if you don’t have that trusted relationship, which is so risky, if you don’t, I mean, I have been blessed with one of the best bosses in the world, and I feel like I have a lot of trust, but I’m not sure, walking into her or her office someday and saying, you know, I’ve just been experiencing IP, not sure I can do my job. I don’t think I would ever feel comfortable doing that. But
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Dr. Julie Ressler
That’s where I think a trusted mentor can come into play and to be super helpful, because it’s someone that may not have the control over your compensation or over your performance review, and they most likely have that third party perspective where they’re not close enough to that situation, but they can help you see that and role playing out some of those scenarios of people that maybe you’ve conned, or you feel like you have, you know you’ve you’ve expressed a feeling where you know, in that situation, I conned this person. So one of the recommendations is to have that role play and then reflect back on how would that person respond? What would they say back to you as a result of feeling conned? So that’s one of the other things to talk, to be able to work through
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s, oh, that’s, that’s really interesting, like, what? Yeah, that’s really interesting. Just to tease it out and to push against the right, like the belief or the thought. I know that one of the things that, like, you know, Nick and I have had this conversation, and it’s work that, that we’ve done, and, you know, and it’s like, so if, when you’re unwilling to accept somebody’s compliment, are you saying they’re lying? No, like, is is that? Because when you don’t, if you’re not willing to accept it, basically you’re saying, like, no, you’re lying.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s not, I don’t value your your perspective and and, you know, and I, and I appreciate that, like really being clear about accomplishments. That was, again referring back to to the conversation we had with Neha when we first kicked off this podcast, was she had a practice called ta-da moments. And like, ta-da, and for her, the ta-da moments were not, not focused just on, like, what did you accomplish? But what was it about who you are, and what I really loved was it wasn’t just like, your degrees, your years of you know, like, but like, who, who you are as a person that allowed you to show up in this way, who, how your background shaped you to be able to show up in this way. And just like doing that deeper reflection of you know, because part of it is, again, when you’re not, especially if you’re like an only, you’re the only woman, you’re the only person of color, you’re the only well, even if you’re the only man right, which is, is not as common, but certainly does happen right, like when you’re the only in a group, like, there’s a different pressure, there’s a different awareness. There’s a different risk calculation, right? And so how do you stay connected and grounded to the gifts you bring even, even if they may look different than the gifts that are kind of commonly around you?
Dr. Julie Ressler
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Julie, as we sort of wrap up our time together, is there anything else, you know, from your research, or even as you’ve been thinking of it since completing it, that you want to make sure that we we give air time to?
Dr. Julie Ressler
I think my biggest aha is that it’s okay to talk about this. It’s okay to express you have those feelings, because most likely, the person that you are speaking with has probably at some point in their lives felt like that. The research told us that over 70% of our world’s population has felt like an imposter at some time. So that tells me that that’s a pretty big percentage, and that was one estimate. I’ve even heard higher numbers. Physicians in their fourth year of medical school. It’s really common among those groups of individuals, or been in school for so long, and they’re getting ready to go out and practice, and they have those questions of, can I really do this? I think it’s just really important. That we we continue that conversation and and know that you’re not alone, and know that you know if you either can find that trusted mentor or that counselor or that therapist, you know, group therapy, I think it was very therapeutic just to have these individual conversations, even though it was for selfishly, it was for my research, but I think they also found it to be really, really helpful for them to be able to express that in a safe environment. And I just think the conversation needs to continue on. I’m actually exploring right now, putting together some curriculum or some training for best practices on how do we keep the conversation going, and what are the best techniques to overcome feelings of IP. You know, how do we a lot of these times it can hold you back from exploring higher levels, if that’s their desire. You know, not everyone desires to reach higher level, but if that’s your desire, if you truly have intense feelings of IP that’s possibly holding you back from pursuing further career advancements or opportunities.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, or even, like, connections, connections with other people, right? Like it’s, you know, it’s not just limiting in your career, it can be limiting in your life, like your relationships, your personal world as well.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yes, absolutely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m so, yeah, it was so fun to be able to talk to you and learn more about your research and and who knows, maybe this might inspire somebody you know in the academic field or someone else to take it and expand it even more broadly, because that’s the beauty of research, is you, you focus on a little area, and then you hope you move the needle forward, or maybe you spark conversations or questions for other people to go. Well, that’s interesting. Now I’m curious about this and to keep building on it. So hopefully, hopefully there’s some sparks of inspiration shared here as well. Julie, since you’re the first time you’ve been on the show, we ask all of our first guests this question, and I would love to hear your answer. And the question is, what was the conversation that you’ve had with yourself or others that was transformative?
Dr. Julie Ressler
Oh, so many, so many of those.
Sarah Noll Wilson
There’s a reason I don’t say what was the one? It’s like, what was one?
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yeah, I, you know, I think I talked about it in the beginning, and that was this, this conversation of IP, when we had our session here at Athene, and it was through an Ernst and Young program. It was called Power Up. And roundtable discussions, we had five different topics. And when the imposter phenomena came up, and when I saw high level people, very successful people, you have people like Maya Angelou, Tom Hanks has been known, Michelle Obama has also talked about their feelings of imposterism, or feeling like an imposter. So I think we put people on these pedestals, and we believe that just because they’ve experienced success, either in their careers or, you know, Maya Angelou, poetic author, that is just incredibly talented. You know, Tom Hanks probably one of the best actors in our in our lifetime, and when you hear them say things like, you know, I, I’ve, I can’t watch my movies because I just can’t believe that that’s me and I, I didn’t deserve to be able to do that. So, you know, that opened that up. Having that session here at work just opened that up, and then the more I dug into the research, it’s also sparked further conversations. I don’t think I would have had some conversations if I hadn’t started with that conversation just at a work event. It just so happened that it happened that way, and I’m just grateful for that, because it really did influence the direction that I took for my dissertation.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, no, that’s awesome. Well, Julie, for people who are curious to hear more, can we, can we link? Can we share your final paper?
Dr. Julie Ressler
Sure. Absolutely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So we will link to your research in the show notes, if people are curious to learn more about you the work you do, what would be the best way for people to connect with you?
Dr. Julie Ressler
Yeah, so I think LinkedIn would be the best way. I’m it’s I’m out on LinkedIn right now, my professional profile is there and happy to either reconnect with people or have new connections would be great as well.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, no, perfect. And we’ll be sure to share that in the show notes as well. Julie, thank you so much for coming on the show and talking to us about the research that you completed and furthering this very important and necessary conversation so that all of us can show up as our most powerful selves. So thank you.
Dr. Julie Ressler
Thank you so much. I appreciate you inviting me to be on the show, and it’s been an enjoyable hour. Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been Dr Julie Ressler, and one of the concepts that I hadn’t heard was the imposter cycle, and I thought that was really interesting to think about how we can fall into either over preparing and then we blame our success on on the effort and time or under preparing or procrastinating, and then we chalk it up to luck. And I had a moment of I think I fall into that latter category sometimes. And we want to hear from you, what resonated for you, what came up for you. And you can always send us an email at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com, where I read and respond to everyone who reaches out to us. Finally, if you enjoyed the show, please be sure to rate review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us to be able to get exposure, so we can continue to have important conversations like the one we did today. And if you’re interested, you could also support the show in different ways. Consider becoming a patron. You can go to patreon dot com slash conversations on conversations, where your financial contributions goes to support the team that makes the show possible. Speaking of which, let’s give the crew some love, to our producer, Nick Wilson, our sound editor, Drew Noll, our transcriptionist, Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant, Jessica Burdg, and the rest of the SNoWco crew. So thankful for you. And then finally, thank you to Dr Julie Ressler for saying yes to coming on the show and sharing the insights from the research she completed. Well, my friends, this completes another episode of conversations on conversations. Thank you, as always, so much for listening and remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So til next week, please be sure to rest, rehydrate, and we will see you again soon. Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.