Episode 050: A Conversation on the Future of Work with Sam Eaton

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Sam Eaton for a wide-ranging discussion on the future of work. Topics include emerging technologies, the rapid pace of change, generational shifts, and the importance of imagining new possibilities.

In this episode, Sam and Sara discuss how embracing change is necessary for creating a new future of work:

• the importance of individualism and providing benefits packages that cater to individual needs.
• the need for open communication between leaders and employees, as well as setting clear boundaries and expectations while being open to evolving those boundaries.
• the need to explore and challenge ideas before articulating them, as well as redefine workspace design to include more than just physical space.
• the importance of asking questions, pushing past comfort zones, looking at the bigger picture, and being sensitive and caring towards leaders who have been in the workforce for a long time.

About Our Guest

Sam Eaton is a global business coach with over 25 years of building consultancies. She works with HR and people specialist founders to help them scale their businesses on their terms, not hers! She is a best-selling author of ‘The Trouble with Pink Wheelbarrows’ and keynote speaker on the future of work and the changing world of work.

Our mission is to support up to 100 businesses via our Mastermind this year. We’ve put together a team of experts as part of that to be there, and on hand to support our cohorts. We want to be a vehicle for positive change.

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Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week, we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and with each other. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me today is my dear friend and colleague, Sam Eaton. Now I have to do a little bit of a disclaimer at the top of this show. Our intention, as you’ll hear us talk about was to explore the idea of menopause and leadership. But we ended up going down this path of the future of work, and we just decided to stay with it. So you will hear us mention that we’re going to talk about menopause. And like Sam and I often do we get off topic, but I want you to know that this is a topic we’re going to come back to. And since we didn’t get to it today, we’re actually going to do a full panel and explore this in much, much greater detail in a future episode. So enjoy.

And joining me this week is my dear friend from across the pond, Sam Eaton. And let me tell you a little bit about Sam, she is a big global business coach with over 25 years of building consultancies. She works with HR and people, specialist founders to help them scale their businesses on their terms, not hers. She is also the best selling author of The Trouble with the Pink Wheelbarrows, and she’s a keynote speaker on the future of work in the changing world of work. And I – well, first, welcome to the show, Sam, and then we’ll we’ll let people know what we’re going to explore today.

Sam Eaton
Thank you. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for having me. I know we met last year, didn’t we? I think it was when you came on to our podcast. After reading your book, it was just like, ah, you know, really wanted your perspective for our audience. And then we got talking about the menopause, didn’t we?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Let’s that’s what we’re going to be talking about today is the menopause. We, we got talking about the fact that there’s such little information research, not only from a medical perspective, it feels like but also just from how do we navigate it as women? How do we navigate it in the workplace? How do we navigate it as leaders? And and I just want to say because we have a global audience, and we have a diverse audience. And so for people who are listening who, you know, may not be biologically, you know, female and experienced this, you have women in your life, you have people in your life who are going to experience this. So I really encourage you not to shut this off. Because go, oh, this doesn’t. This isn’t necessary for me. Because you know, this can give you some perspective and insights to people who you work with, and people who you love and what they’re experiencing. Maybe perhaps at a deeper level. Before we hop into the topic, though, Sam, what else would you like people to know about you?

Sam Eaton
Oh, great question. What else would I want people to know about me? It’s interesting, I think right now with where the world’s at. Um, there seems to be a lot of fear. And I think it’s, it’s the fact that you can do whatever you want, if you put your mind to it. So it’s not really about me, it’s the emotions and what we’re trying to create in others that, that, I think is the only other thing that I would like to add, Sarah, you know, I could talk about this for hours, yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, you can tell talk as much as you want here. We’ve got you know, we’ve got the time. (laughter) It’s, um, I think, you know, and I’m curious, actually, you know, even before we dive in, I mean, part part of what I’ve certainly, I’ve experienced, I’ve observed and I’m curious to get your perspective is sort of finally, finally, a shift towards people paying attention to humans in a different way, right, in the workplace. And I think as individuals we are, you know, I’m looking at the date. So for folks who are listening, we’re recording this on St. Patrick’s Day and realizing, Oh, it was exactly three years ago, when the big shutdown happened, and how over the last three years, so many of us have really rethought our values, what’s important to us, how I want to spend time, how, how do I want to treat people and how do I want to be treated? And I think that it’s, you know, we’re into this interesting, painful shift, a bit of letting go of some of the old guard of work. And I’m just curious to get your thoughts on like, in what are you what are you observing from your perspective on how work is changing or how people are feeling about how they’re showing up?

Sam Eaton
Great question. The – there’s a couple of things. We obviously as we all know, three years ago, we suddenly worked from home overnight, and we had trust in you each other, we had faith in each other, and a great camaraderie in terms of you know, we’ll, we’ll get through this together. And I remember one bright and sunny day during the first year of lockdown. And it was VE Day celebrations here. So it was May, we were allowed to go for one walk a day. And I went for a five mile roundtrip walk. And there were people in their gardens, obviously, not mixing within households. But everyone was happy, everyone, you felt a real sense of togetherness. There, I’ve got to be honest, I’m saddened by the fact that we’re eroding trust so quickly, right now. You and I, in a plethora of others are working so hard to help continue this evolution of work. And yet, we’re still hearing things like, let’s go back to work. Well, we are working, you’re using very negative terminology. And this old model of having to be in an office 8:30 to 5:00 is broken. But we’re breaking people by breaking trust. I think we’re going backwards again, Sarah, I don’t know what the answer is to that. But let’s embrace the fact that we’re in an era of individualism. We’re actually, if you don’t want to be in an office every day, that’s okay. But if I do, that’s okay, too. And we can go and find our tribe, and our communities. And I heard that yesterday, actually on a webinar I joined where they were talking about the metaverse. And actually, you know, we’re not teams anymore creating communities in the workplace. And I love that, it really resonated with me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
There’s so, there’s so much that you said that, I mean, this is why I love being in conversation with you. And it’s reminding me why I need to be in more conversations with you, is that idea of we’re breaking people by breaking trust, and there is this, you know, homeostasis is a very wanting to go back to what’s familiar and wanting to go back to what’s normal. And, and that in, I would say, the greatest tension I see that is in people who are running the show, right? The people who are in positions of power and authority, have struggled have, quite frankly, I’m just gonna say it, have struggled to adapt to the needs, to the individualism that has emerged, to people questioning things to people wondering, can we do it differently and do it better? And, you know, certainly some of that comes from control. Some of that comes from wanting to be in control and power, some of that I’m sure comes from protection, because it’s feels maybe insecure when you’re used to leading from a command and control style. But when you talk to team members, when you talk to people who aren’t in those positions, they’re here for it, like they’re here for the revolution, and for the change. And, and, you know, in hearing you reflect too on where where we were now, obviously, you’re lived experience during that pandemic was largely impacted by where you were. Because where I lived, that sense of community and having each other’s back didn’t last very long. Because of the state that I’m in, and because of the attitude and the beliefs of the people in control. And, and there – I don’t know that I’ve ever thought of it like this. But there has been this sort of, you know, we keep talking about the great, the great resignation, the great reckoning, the great, whatever, there has been a great erosion that has happened. And, and we’ve been gifted and in a strange way, we’ve been gifted this incredible opportunity to rethink, not just work but our lives, and what we and how we show up and what we talk about and what’s important to us and and it’s it’s a real struggle. It is I mean, I hear it, I hear it and folks of like, you know, just like you were saying, just we want to get back. Or, Sarah people didn’t used to ask or question being in the office and I was like, right, because they never had the they never thought it was even an option. Now if this is possible, but like what else can we create, and how can we do it better? I mean, I’m always like, how can we do it better folks? Like is this the best? Because I don’t think it is.

Sam Eaton
And I love that I love the way that you know, you’ve got that reframe, which is how do we do it better? And a lot of that is, you know, when you look around right now, in the UK, we’ve got strikes, we’ve had transportation strikes, we’ve had teachers on strike. In fact, anyone that could go on strike, well, hell, they’re on strike right now. And it does make you question and really think, you know, we as a society are trying to hold on to something where we need to make these changes now. You know, we need to – to your point. What’s next? And how exciting is that? What does next look like? When we look back at the start of the pandemic, we were seeing things like, I think it was just Barbados that had digital nomad visa. Now, what they’re over 20 countries. Yes, it’s, it’s going to be a huge headache for you. How do you tax that? What does that look like if you’ve got one foreign national, who’s living in another country, and they’ve got multiple income streams from different countries, but again, that’s actually building another industry, another sector. So let’s look forward at that and continue, as you say, to evolve and grow, because that’s just, that’s just a beautiful thing. I think we’re, we’re to stuck with where we’re at right now. And looking at the bad rather then as you say, look at the future. For example, hey, we’ve already got holographic technology where we can appear in in front of a stage for 1000s of people who can all hear us talk in their own languages in multiple languages. Again, that’s a beautiful thing, why, we’re not losing humanity, we’re staying connected. And we’re forgetting that, actually, that that connection can take many forms.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s, you know, when I think about what’s happening in the States, you know, for people who are outside of here, or the people who are in here, maybe not paying attention, there’s (pauses and exhales) there’s such a movement, by certain people in power to restrict rights, to withhold protections, to dismiss, right, in the the act of, of trying to hold on to what what once was, right? And over over here in America, it’s very much like, holding on, just name it holding on to white power. white, heterosexual Christian power. Is that? I don’t know, I hope and I think, and I hope I’ll go back to this, that like, the, the change has happened in so many people that that what we’re seeing is sort of like a last stand. But it’s exhausting to be in this place of stuck, it’s exhausting to see the harm that’s happening from wanting to stay as is and the harm can be as large as, you know, literally, somebody’s being executed for decisions they’re making to down to the workplace of somebody not being safe, to where, where they’re working in. And, and it’s frustrating. And it’s frustrating when you see this possibility. And I think, you know, what gives me hope in this space and what keeps me moving is that there’s there’s a whole lot of us now thinking differently, doing differently, trying different things that at some point there has to be a tipping point. And, and you know, and I think that for some for some folks in some situations, I was just talking about this with somebody this morning, is that when you’re used to something existing in a certain way for as long as it has, so let’s just talk work when you’re used to work looking a certain way, as long as as long as it has. It almost can be, like impossible to imagine a new future when you’ve never even seen what is possible, right? When, like when you’re talking about the metaverse, right and and how we can connect and we can build communities through ways that don’t have to be physical and don’t have to be in a location. And if you’ve never experienced that technology, if somebody has not shown you how you could apply that It’s almost it feels impossible sometimes to even imagine that as a possibility. And I don’t even necessarily know where I’m going with my thought. I’m just like, this is what’s coming up for me as, as you were, you’re sharing. And you know, and so part of it is like, for me, I, for myself anyway, I feel I feel very much in this mode of what else can I experience? Or what else can I observe? What are the limitations of my experience? What are the limitations of what I’ve learned to tolerate? And and to bust through some of that, and it’s messy, and it’s uncomfortable? And it and it feels inevitable unnecessary is I guess what I would say to that,

Sam Eaton
It’s true, isn’t it? And it’s, you know, and I have to really question and challenge myself when I get fearful, you know. We’ve now had ChatGPT, which I only knew about November last year, I think most of us did. And now we’re in version four. My instant, instinct is, oh, my goodness, I’m terrified, followed by really challenging myself, why am I scared? Because as the old phrase goes, we didn’t go to the moon alone. We went with technology. And in fact, right the way back to the first Industrial Revolution, when people were mad about the fact we had cotton mills.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.

Sam Eaton
Well, that wasn’t even we’re going through the evolution. Yes we have to be careful with AI, I do believe that I do think we need to be cautious with, with how we embrace this and work with this. But it’s just that we need to learn to embrace it to be better. We’ve got all sorts of things around the world, bigger than we’re talking about now. We’ve got a world where our global population is dropping.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Sam Eaton
It’s fundamentally dropping and the impact that will have on future generations – and I know that, you know, the likes of you and I are thinking about that now, when, when we, you know, when I’m coaching my clients, I’m saying, you know, I need you to think big, I need you to, to implement some of your future back thinking. And you can’t go too big and blows, blow people’s minds, so to speak. But you have to go far enough forward, that when they are being called in to help with succession planning, and what is the workforce look like? Yes, we’ve got a lot of roles that aren’t here yet. They are evolving. Again, new sectors, new industries, but they’re bigger things that we need to be looking at. And that’s certainly something that’s very much on my radar, you know, that? How do we stay relevant? How do we look at some of these other bigger challenges when we’re looking at the workforce in that way?

Sarah Noll Wilson
I, I love hearing how you push your clients to think like that, because it can be an easy trap. And even hearing you talk, I’m reflecting for myself, that it can be an easy trap to just think in terms of impact within the four walls, quote unquote, or the four sides of the screen. And not realizing that things are again, they’re fundamentally changing in every, every direction and in massive ways. I was just talking to somebody and and they caught themselves in saying, you know, people just don’t want to work. They’re struggling with staffing. And, and I, and in they, they didn’t say it, but I could tell they were like right on the verge of it. And I said, you know, I hear that. And let’s not forget how many millions of people have died over the last couple of years, let’s not forget how many millions of people who are experiencing long COVID and are in the place of disability, let’s not forget how many people are likely experiencing PTSD, because of what we went through. And that I’m just talking about one thing we’ve experienced, I mean, as a collective global system, we have multiple things that we’re navigating and and so I really appreciate hearing how you push your clients to, to think outside, right, of the what’s immediate, and more. What’s, what’s that legacy? And what’s that impact because, I mean, there’s just we are interconnected, whether we pay attention to it or not, whether we’re making choices from that place or not. We are.

Sam Eaton
very much so and you know, I call me a cynic. But early on in my career, I was in media. I am very aware that there’s more money spent on things not getting in the media that is in the media. It saddens me to see that we now live in the world that media is owned by commercial giants to talk about their message. The media is now very political. And I certainly don’t want to go down that route. Because it’s, you know, it’s a Pandora’s box, right, as we’ve seen. But to add to what you said earlier, we’re also seeing families who have been divided, and they are never going to reunite. That’s another huge pressure that we’ve seen that we never thought we’d see over, over something like this. And you know, we’re maybe best to leave that one there. But the world, there’s a lot of healing that’s needed. And I fundamentally believe that we probably have another couple of really tough years, which those who are listening to this right now. I’m certainly seeing it’s been a bizarre week, actually, that the air, everyone seems very flat. And that’s okay, maybe it’s a time of year, maybe it’s, you know, whatever it is, that’s okay. But fundamentally, yes, we might be in for another couple of tough years. But let’s look beyond that. Will we have a new financial system? Well, we might, that could be quite exciting. What will our transportation look like? That is also quite exciting. What does the future of our our workforce look like when we look at the population? There needs to be a fundamental shift. And that I think, is is the bigger play here, which is, you know, in 10 years time, China won’t be a major power anymore, because of their aging population. Russia has got the same problem as well. So have many, many parts of Western Europe. So what does that look like for our workforce? You know, it’s – as individuals where we will definitely have to be more self sufficient. And for certain countries, certainly in Western Europe, who were used to relying more on the government for pensions, etc, that’s going to be that’s going to be tough. But what we are seeing is a younger generation coming through, who were saying, I don’t want to be like my parents or grandparents, I want a better quality of life. They are recognizing some of these bigger issues. And they’re embracing it in such a positive way. And that is so refreshing to see.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Something really interesting that happened after an event that I was speaking at. I had a gentleman who came up to me who I, you know, I don’t know his age, but if I had to guess, probably early 60s. And so he came up and he said, “You know, I really appreciate everything you were talking about, you said the thing you didn’t mention that I think is worth mentioning is generation differences.” And I’m always curious when people bring that up, because often often what is followed by – as somebody who’s an elder millennial has spent, you know, most of my adult life being shit on (laughs) as a millennial, right? Like, it’s such a derogatory name. I’m always a little cautious when people bring up generations. And, you know, he, he was saying how, you know, his experiences, this younger generation, just isn’t as respectful. And and it was really interesting, because I asked him to define, “Well, what what does respect mean to you?” And how he defined it was compliance. And, he didn’t say, compliance, you know, but he shared that, well, when I was young, I had to put up with a terrible boss, and I had to suck it up. And that’s what you did. And it was so and my, my question to him was, is that the world we still want? Like, is that is that what we want? You know, and as we got talking, I was sharing with him. I don’t think I’ve shared this on the show, because it just happened a couple weeks ago, but it was I’ve talked with it with other folks. I said, you know, look at me. So I’m 41. I am literally the last generation, like my year and the year before and after me. We’re the last generation that grew up fundamentally without technology. And as we were exiting high school, we were starting to get introduced to and I said so literally everyone under 40 during most of some some portion in significant or all of their formative years, has had access to information has had the ability to connect on a global scale has seen – has information about the harm things, cause, you know, and I shared with him, I said, even for me, you know, I hear you, I hear that it’s challenging. And you know, what I saw? What I learned coming out of college, is very quickly there was the 2008 financial crisis. So I learned really quickly, you don’t give everything to a company. I saw uncles have heart attacks at 50. Because they gave everything to the company. And there was this, this younger woman, and if I had to guess, late 20s, and she was overhearing our conversation. And she said, and we don’t want to tolerate a company that’s not invested in taking care of people and taking care of the environment. And it was such a beautiful moment, even for me to like, learn watching her, she goes, and we’re going to speak up about it. And we’re going to move if the company doesn’t do it. And it was such an interesting dynamic of, right, like, kind of old guard, middle guard me who’s trying to tow and find my voice and my confidence and speaking up, and then this, this amazing woman who’s just like, yeah, I’m just going to tell you your face, we’re not going to put up with it anymore. And that there is a fundamental shift that’s happening. And again, I’m here for all of it. But I just I was wanted to share that story as you were talking.

Sam Eaton
I love that. And you’re so right. And you know, and when I look back to when I was younger, yeah, I was at Goldman Sachs, right? Where you, it was a badge of honor to sleep under your desk, I could sleep all night, I could work all night, aren’t I lucky. And those kinds of cultures – you know, I’m I’m not a fan of the labels that we’re using of you know, toxic, and everyone has their own version and understanding. And I’m a huge believer that we all have different filters and understanding of these things. It taught me a lot. They were the most incredible brains and smart, some of the smartest people I’ve met throughout my career there. But that insatiable drive to win at something that when we look at the fundamentals, win wars, at what cost, and to your point, we were seeing men have heart attacks from the age and women from the age of 27 onwards. And that is something that’s staggering. You know, and we put up with that you’ve got to put you in. And you’ve probably heard this too. Sarah, you know, you’ve got to serve your time. You’ve got to – it’s a rite of passage.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I had to do – I had to suffer. I mean, nobody has said this directly. But basically you’re saying I had to suffer, therefore you have to suffer.

Sam Eaton
You have to. And that whole thing about doing things differently. I’m learning every day, I’ve got a diverse team. And I want a diverse team because I want them to tell me I’m wrong so I can learn. But there are obviously times where my experience and expertise will trump that raw talent and vice versa. But here’s the difference. Neither is wrong. And that’s what we’re learning. And we’re learning more of. But I really would love to see some more of these larger organizations – yes, we recognize you’re invested and you know, vested in these massive buildings that you once had, that were the center of your universe and where everyone came every day, there are still going to be those that want to come in maybe two to three times a week. But that’s not hybrid working. I’ve funnily enough, I’ve saved an article to read this weekend that says, you know, the definition of hybrid working is people coming in at a time that they choose that works. This whole dictatorial hybrid is now three days a week. Well, that’s the worst of both worlds again.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right.

Sam Eaton
So it’s, we’ve got to find that and it’s going to take us time. And we also need to be just as, just as sensitive and caring about leadership who’ve always done it this way for 20 years. Yes, I know we’ve got this, and it drives me nuts that you know, there’s still this old boys club at the top. And when I hear that some of my friends can’t get funding, third round funding because they’re females with three kids and the guys that they’re trying to get funding from have just you know, us you can see where this is going right they were all at Oxford or Cambridge together. The frustration of that is still raw. But there is an empathy we need to have these leaders to recognize, none of this stuff is easy. And we need to work together just as, when we’re looking at how we create more diverse workforce. That also means that we need to embrace those at the top to say, actually, let us take you on a journey too, if you’re open to it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s you know, something we talk about in a lot of our work is that, you know, people don’t fear change, they fear loss, and there is loss that those leaders who’ve been in the workforce 30-40 years are experiencing. Maybe some might argue is that it’s not as big of a loss, I’m like, it’s present, it’s there, they might not recognize it as such. And, and that the, the rules, I feel like the rules, – what the pandemic did was accelerate the changing of the rules. We were already on this journey before of a little bit more human centered, more people focused, higher levels of empathy, more relational. But then that got accelerated in a way and, and I think that’s something too, for people who are listening who maybe are identifying with the folks we’re talking about who who’ve been at the top for so long, you know, is to get really curious. It’s such an opportunity as we think about the future, because to me, that’s, I mean, that’s what we’re exploring is like, how, how do we how do we create a new future of work? Is to recognize that there isn’t like easy solutions, necessarily. But we do have to start experimenting. And you know, the three questions that I often invite people to think about, and whether it’s clients, or if we’re in front of an audience is, from an evolutionary term. Animals that evolve their DNA is kind of doing one of three things. It’s figuring out what of the DNA you hold on to? What of the DNA you let go of? And what of the DNA you need to do new or differently? And I’m curious to hear from you, you know, what, in the spirit in the spirit of what are the kinds of conversations – I mean, there’s a couple of beautiful questions you’ve already prompted from the standpoint of what is next look like? Right? How do we think bigger? What are some of the other other questions, perspectives? Or even if there’s frameworks that you think would be really valuable for those people who are in positions of power to be thinking about? Those people who maybe aren’t yet, right, because there’s a new generation coming up? What are some of those questions? Or perspectives you think are necessary for people to be thinking about with where we are now related to the world of work?

Sam Eaton
Great questions, where I tend to start is, I’ve studied a lot future back thinking, and how larger companies have embraced that. And that really, is is looking ahead. So you just asked a couple of them, Sarah, where do you want? Where do you want to be? What? What does that look like? What skills do we think we need? What are the other things that we need to take into consideration? Be that technology, government? Are there other things that we’re not thinking about? And I take people back to around the 1890s when the first carriage was drawn. So we went from a carriage to a horseless carriage. There was absolutely nothing wrong with that. Except people took all the data they have today, back then, and said, okay, this is what it looks like. We’ll just take the horses off, and stick an engine on it. If you take that analogy, and put it in today’s world, that helps you really visualize where you could get stuck. And I use those words very carefully. It’s not about getting things wrong. It’s about getting stuck. Where do you want to be? Where do we see the skills gaps? And what do we need to be aware of? We’re human. So what are the landmarks we want to celebrate along the way? Daniel Priestley is a great business coach I admire, he talks all about celebrating. Everything’s a campaign, a beginning and an end. So when you’re looking that far ahead, break it down, Break it down to a campaign.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I, one of the things that was coming up as you were talking, is – I was just having this vision of, you know, people who we support, or maybe we may support people who work under, right, those people. And those are, those are big questions that – I don’t, I’m gonna say this, and I’m, I’ll fix it after I say it. But I see so often people haven’t even asked this question of themselves and their own life. Right? They haven’t built that awareness of what’s the impact I want to make? What’s the life I want to live? What would success look like to me? What does a fulfilled life look like? And I’m it I’m just pausing on the fact of how can we? How can we? How effective can we be at asking and answering those questions from a company perspective if we don’t know how to ask and answer those questions for our own life? I’m just I’m chewing on the observation of sort of a low level of self awareness that we often see in people and just everyone right, that’s it’s a, it’s a, it’s an act, it’s something we have to do. You know, the whole what do we need to be aware of, you know, what, what might be getting us stuck? I love, I love that question. And I appreciate how you teased out you’re being really intentional about that of – and you know, when one question that came up for me is, what assumptions are we making? You talked about, you know, ChatGPT, which there’s still I know, lots of people who are unfamiliar, like, well, I’ve heard articles on it, but I don’t really understand it, I’m like, it literally is going to fundamentally change our world. It already is. And it is both terrifying and amazing. (laughs) I feel like when the first time I started interacting with it, I went, Oh, fuh – we, I don’t know as humans, we’re prepared for this, but but to to you know, and so then in the reason I bring that up is because a lot of my colleagues say in the academic space, where, well, we’re just going to make sure students don’t use it. It was like, oh, that’s, that’s an that’s, I mean, that that’s like you’re getting stuck in thinking of what’s possible, you’re also getting stuck, and you think they’re not gonna (laughs) they’re gonna find ways to leverage it and use it. And so instead of looking at it as a threat, and it’s different than where we are, right, how do we look at it and go, so what do we do differently now, because of it? I think that’s such a immediate, you know, and what’s funny is we’ll probably in two years look back and be like, oh, remember, remember when we were just discovering, like ChatGPT and what was possible and the other AI systems that have been designed and, you know, production, and I don’t know, we’ll all just live in houses that are taking care of us. And we’ll lose all of our muscle mass. I don’t know – like but, but the whole point of that is to circle back my brain a minute, is these are really necessary and important questions. And I just wonder, how can, how can we ask those on a larger scale, if we haven’t asked them for our own lives? And maybe that’s a place where some of us need to start is to go what, you know, the future back to use your language? You know, what do I want my life to be? What are the skills I need to? What else do I need to be taken in consideration in order to get there? What else do I need to be aware of? So that was just something that was coming up for me as you were talking.

Sam Eaton
And I love that. And there’s another piece in there around of who, who can I surround myself with, in order to create that? Because I think that’s so huge. And one of the things that you you asked in your book that had such a profound effect on me, is really realizing the fear of loss. And identifying that, because that’s so much at the heart of everything. Bryon Katie’s another coach who I admire, and she has a four step process when you’re asking things, you know, is this true? Is this really true when when you’re questioning and challenging, you’re coming from a place of fear or anger. And one of the questions is, who would I be without that thought? And I mentioned it to a client yesterday, and she stopped in her tracks and she’s trying to do big, big things in the HR space. And she said, Sam, do you realize how important that question is? And I, I have to say I hadn’t really given it any consideration for a while. It is a huge question. And I think it’s one that’s good to be asking ourselves as a collective right now. What would I be without that thought? Because you and I both know, letting go of some things it actually allows us to find excitement, to overcome fear. And maybe that’s more of the things we need to be looking at, to your point about the fundamentals in order to get to this structure and infrastructure that we’re trying to create, and embracing the fact that that’s going to change. And that’s okay.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That, that’s a real gift of a question. And in, in how you illustrated or teased out that asking that opens up space for us to get excited about, about something. And I can imagine, I could imagine in some situations, that answer might be really scary for some people. Because if my identity is so tied to I don’t know, style of leadership, if my identity is so tied to doing this work this way. You know, it’s I think it’s an interesting question, not just in times of struggle. But I think that’s what’s coming up for me that this is a powerful question, not just in times of struggle, or frustration, or anger, or worry, or anxiety, certainly somebody with anxiety is thinking, umm, other question I might need to add to my tool belt. But even just just asking the question, right, who would I be without this thought that I have to be the one to do it? Who would I be without this thought? And, and which is a bit of an act of courage just to sit with that. And I want to go back to your question that you also offered up of who can I surround myself with? And that I think this is a real, it’s been a real gap, probably since like work has been happening in the way that we know it. And what voices am I not hearing? You know, when we talk with leaders and teams about psychological safety, one of the questions we always ask is, and who gets to be safe? And and, and I’m just chewing on, on this conversation of yeah, and like, and what not only who do I surround myself with, but who, who am I not hearing? And it’s interesting, because (pauses) there’s a lot in front of us, as humans as a global society that is complicated, that is messy, that is not just complicated, but that there’s a real cost to us not figuring out. And, and, and how do we step into, and I’m reflecting on this for myself, too, of how do we step into the role we get to play in shaping and changing it? And just how do we get more people to move away from the protection of what once was into getting curious and excited about what could be? Because I that’s what I see is a lot of that like holding on to holding on to the old ways. I don’t know if you followed my thinking at all. And I appreciate if you did. (laughs)

Sam Eaton
I really did. And, you know, it’s – I had visions of some of the events I’ve gone to recently where you can see those in the room who were maybe further down a certain path than others. And yet, it’s interesting to see I was at an event at Lisbon University last year, and seeing a sea of men and women in still the classic corporate suits. Listening to people talking about where the world of work is going with a bunch of, you know, robots and AI and you know, all the metaverse going on and you could test it and they were saying all the right things. And they turned up what I now termed as the uniform of yesterday. You know, it’s, we’re so done with it. We’re so done with it, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yes.

You know, if I turn up with my shoulder pads, I’m, you know, I got bigger Kahunas than you because, hey, there – we are, we’re done, that’s gone. Let’s leave that where it should be, which is in the past. So absolutely, I saw where you’re going. And I get it when we’ve got, say, some of the older generation where they have given their entire lives from the second they get up in the morning to the time they go to bed, even whilst they’re dreaming. And they may only have four hours of sleep, and that’s seven days a week. And they’ve done that for 40 years. And they feel blessed that they’ve got a driver that takes them to work, they’ve got a cleaner who does everything for them. But if you ask that person to do their own washing, to cook a meal, to take a vacuum, I mean, okay, we’ve got, you know, things that can do your own vacuum in now. I get it. My point is some of the simple things in life have passed them by. And that’s just tragic. So I get it. And that might be controversial for some people, I get it, why there going to be some people, we just have to say, you stay where you’re at, we get it, it’s too late for you to change. But we’re gonna go on an evolution, which goes back to my fundamental point, which is we are in an era of individualism, and there are going to be a bunch of people who want to stay there. Let’s leave them be and let them stay there. But we’ll carry on with our own era of individualism, and create what we want to create, because the rule books were thrown out in 2020. And this is an exciting time and with change comes fear. And your point, that means loss, and how we deal with it. But if we recognize that, and we need people like you, Sarah, out there, talking to leadership, so they can understand their fears. But they can also understand the opportunity by them letting go. And understanding what difference they can make and the world they can help create. And the benefits for them as individuals more family time, some might not want it (chuckles), but travel more, more of something else that they want to do is actually more achievable and closer than they think.

And I think that there’s there’s some element of, for some folks, you know, we work a lot with executives and CEOs, but they don’t know what their identity is without the role. They don’t know what their identity is without the work. They don’t know what their – they don’t know what their relationships are like, because it’s been so focused right in this one area. Can I just put out into the universe? I want to make sure I don’t forget, will you please write an article or something where the title is The Uniform of Yesterday?

Sam Eaton
I could do that.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I think that is such a – and those are the small ways even for us to check our assumptions on what does work need to look like? What is, you know, shoot, I remember when I when I started speaking, you know, a little bit over 12, 13 years ago now, we’ll say 15 and make me sound. I mean, I’ve been facilitating for longer than 15. But when I started speaking from a keynote perspective, I remember the advice I got from you know, and I understood where she was coming from, a woman who had been speaking for a lot longer. So if you want people to take you serious, you gotta wear a suit. And the rebel in me was like, mmm I don’t know, we’ll see about that. (laughs) Like, I don’t know. I mean, let’s, and I understand that’s I’m also coming from an incredible place of privilege in saying that but like, yeah, I don’t I don’t know. And, and it’s, it’s interesting, actually, because I was just working with a group that was about 110 leaders. Very similar to what you were saying. Black navy suits, probably 99.9% white guys. And we were talking about safety. And I even shared with him. I said so this first level of safety of inclusion, safety, do I belong here? The minute I walked into the room, I was questioning that because I can count on one hand the people who look like me, and so I’m calculating differently than the rest of you. So anyway, that’s it. Little bit of a tangent, but I was when you were talking about that, of that, the how do we change the container, right? That it isn’t just what we put into the container? But how do we fundamentally change the container? And you know, when when you are talking about – I feel like this could be a, I feel like we have lots of future conversations. But that idea of we’re in the age of individualism, I mean, the one of one of the points of frustration, that that I hear coming from from leaders is like, I can’t cater to everyone’s needs. What would you say to people who share that frustration, who were like, I like I want to do more, but I also just can’t cater to everyone’s needs, like I can’t, I don’t have the time, we as a company can’t afford it, insert whatever, whatever reasoning, how would you how would you respond to folks who feel that way?

Sam Eaton
And I hear that question a lot. I’ve got all of these things that I need to achieve for a diverse workforce now, what do I do? I’ve seen a lot of companies actually come together and say, okay, let’s look at some of the fundamentals. Let’s look at, say, benefits packages. And I know I’m going more tactical,–

Sarah Noll Wilson
I think that’s great though.

Sam Eaton
I think it starts with that listening, right? So I had a client of a client, who was really interested in being able to help their their individualism, that was their whole project, we need individualism in our workplace, so we’re going to let them choose the benefits. What came out number one was pet benefits?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure, sure.

Sam Eaton
The second one was around something more traditional, if my memory serves me right, it was medical and health insurance. They were remote based, they wanted to come together on a quarterly basis, an organization to pay for it. They were able to demonstrate that they were listening. And they they’d gone with the majority on that. That is, however really difficult. And it’s about creating different discussion groups to say, okay, well, what’s fair? Because you and I both know, if you ask, then you’ve got to do something about it as a leader, even if you acknowledge you’ve listened. But it’s no, now or it can’t be done. It needs to be explained why. Okay, so this is a great idea. Here’s what we’re thinking with where the revenue is right now and where the business is going. Great idea. But can you come up with something that is either more inexpensive, or still has the same outcome, but maybe a different activity, keep the lines of communication open. But also, my goodness, it’s tough for leaders, isn’t it because they’re still running a business. So they can’t cater for everyone in that way. And the downside of this generation who are coming up, who won’t tolerate what we all tolerated, and thank goodness, is they are intolerant. And they’re also inexperienced. And it’s recognizing that there is also that level of, of recognition of that, that we’re asking them to be actually fair on the older generation, the old guard, and, you know, this is a conversation that needs to be had all around. I don’t think there’s an easy answer to that yet, Sarah, but it is about keeping that line of communication open and negotiating, and hey, maybe we’re going to find there’s another role that’s created in the workplace that is, you know, a workforce mentor or a work, you know, workforce mentorships. And their role is to, to make sure that the workforce is listened to is heard. And some of that good stuff is then rolled out within and the recognition goes to those who’ve played a fundamental part of it. The odds will play out very differently for different organizations.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and that that, you know, to build on to your point of keeping the lines of communication open. Sometimes when you’re in a leadership position, especially if you know, I can speak as a founder of the company, I have a different vantage point of all of the moving pieces of the company. I am thinking about the finances, in a way that not a single other person on the team will ever think about them. I am thinking about where the money’s coming from, you know, like if things are lean, I’m thinking about that differently. I’m very aware of down to the dime, what is in my bank and what isn’t, where it’s come from. What is, you know, right, what, what percentage of it is an investment, what percentage of it is from client work? And so, there is this vantage point. And I think sometimes what can cause a point of frustration, is an assumption that everyone has that same vantage point. And so part of the question that you put forward of, hey, here’s the reality, our budget is this so can we keep chewing on this idea? And can we explore it in a different way? I think is such a powerful example of what it looks like to, again that how do we bring each other along? How do we, you know, how do you push me and my thinking, help me see what I’m not seeing? How do I push you in your thinking of things you are not thinking about that I’m thinking about? And how do we, how do we come together in this? And and I think sometimes that it – well, I don’t think I know that that doesn’t always happen, right. It’s just no, this is why we’ve always done it, period, or we just ignore it. Or we get irritated that they’re so needy, or entitled, or whatever language gets used for – every older generation says the younger generations entitled, right? It’s like a rite of passage, I think. But how do we communicate, educate, push each other and then allow ourselves to be pushed a bit, I think is a really, really important practice. Yeah, I don’t know what else is coming up for you. Um, as we sort of wind down that idea.

Sam Eaton
There’s something here about where’s the line? What do I mean by that is we’ve worked incredibly hard and continue to work hard to create an inclusive workplace. Going back to this era of individualism, we want people to have a voice. We want them heard. The other side of that is to just as you’ve said, and as a as a fellow founder, I get it, we’re the ones who had the sleepless nights. We’re responsible for other livelihoods, our own, our families, their families. So where’s – there seems to be more gray, more gray, I think that’s the way to put it, when it comes to those who are in a decision making position, many of which will be actually the business owners or accountable to shareholders. Ultimately, they’ve still got that element of accountability way more than others. Where’s the line? And how do we, I’m going to be bold and say, how do we reeducate our teams on that, to actually be respectful of that line? Because that’s that respect goes both ways. We are, as people who are trying to change the way the workplace works, build our own businesses, build and infuse enthusiasm, and insight and creativity into our teams. How do we continue to say, okay, but I really need you to understand that this is the line without losing some of that trust that people like us with our organizations, and what we’re doing for our clients have worked so hard to, to get to where we’re at today. And I don’t have the answer for that. That’s where I was going.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it was. It’s, it’s interesting, you say that that was a conversation I had with someone that, you know, I said, as we as we navigate the competing commitment between an organization that needs to keep its lights on, and this individualization that’s happening, right? There’s this tension and there isn’t this clear – and so now, as a company, you always have the right to say, this is who we are, and this is how we operate. You know, there may be consequences to that. You might need to be okay with those consequences of who wants to work for you or who doesn’t. And, and, you know, but but let’s be really clear, you know, to your point of like, let’s be clear about what the line is because I think what what happens sometimes is we say the line is this, but really how we behave is this and then people feel like well you weren’t who you say you are, we aren’t who we say we are. And, and, you know, to build on what we’ve been talking about. And to be open to the line shifting, right, and to be open and be open to, to redefining that, you know, that they’re, whenever I hear people say, people just don’t want to work, Sarah. The question that always comes up for me is, is it that they don’t want to work? Or is it that they don’t want to work for you? You know, like, I’m not being smart on that. But it is, you know, like, what’s the culture you’re creating? What’s the line? What, again, what are you willing to tolerate or let go of to be able to maintain to maintain that? And but you’re right, I think that there’s a huge opportunity for, for us to clarify, and again, be open to it evolving. Because we are we, we are just in an evolution, an accelerated evolution. And I think that we don’t even understand, well, I don’t I’ll say me, some people probably are much more aware of the role technology is going to play like, and we don’t even know what it’s going to look like in two to three years with with how quickly everything is changing. And so how do we like how do we how do we get clear about that? How – what are we okay, with the cost of that line? And how can we be more open to evolving that? Boy, I wish that was a conversation more folks were having for sure.

Sam Eaton
That is such a big question you just asked, what is the cost of that line? So you know, where do you set it? And what is the cost of that line? And there are times I think, you know, why sometimes think to myself, am I overthinking this? Am I making something a problem that’s not a problem? Am I, gosh even if is that question overthinking it. And, you know, I think in the line of work and what we do, it’s about really recognizing actually, that’s okay, I need to explore this, why I’m thinking this before I articulate it to a client, before I you know, put it in writing anywhere or context to sit with it. And I love that part of our evolution. That real day-to-day challenge. And I find that really uplifting I find, I feel really light with it, because it’s good. I’m still questioning and challenging, which, which is great.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s in these moments, I always I feel like I fall back on, aren’t we just amazing? Aren’t we just so beautiful? (laughs) And and and that that check of am I still questioning it? Because again, there’s not there’s not a single path forward? It is an evolution. It is an experimentation it is a, huh I hadn’t thought about that before. I love those moments of, hmm. Okay, all right, like, what do I do with this now? Sam, it’s clear you and I can just keep talking about all of this. And it’s also clear that we need to have you back on the show. I, I want to I want to be thoughtful of your time. And as we wind down this conversation, you know, I guess just you know, other final thoughts, as we’re talking about the future of work, and the I mean, really what we’re talking about is, what does it mean to be an adaptive leader, and driving the future of work. Other thoughts you want to share before we wind down officially and formally?

Sam Eaton
Okay, so there was just one, Sarah, thank you for having me. I was here half an hour early. I was so excited by our conversation today. My one final takeaway is something that I was talking to someone else about earlier on this week when they were talking about workspace design. And I said, I want you to get out of the mindset of thinking that that has to be physical. And that’s blowing my mind. That’s something that yeah, we’ve talked about we’ve talked around that today. But what does the future of workspace design truly look like?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yep. I thank you for that. Because as soon as you said that, I realized, oh, that if that question came up, my brain went to the assumption of physical space, so thank you for pushing on that. Sam, there’s a question we ask everyone as we wind down our show in the spirit of exploring the idea of conversations we have with ourselves and others. And so I’m curious to know, what was the conversation you either had with yourself or with someone else that was transformative for you?

Sam Eaton
Well, after being quite intellectual, I have to say that I’m going to have to bring the tone right down on and I apologize. I was very early on in my career. In fact, I was my first job. And I was in a typing pool. And this East End girl, which you know, for those of you who don’t know, they are from a part of London, they they are the salt of the earth. And she said to me, I’d had a absolute roasting from one of the partners, I was in tears, I was all young and upset. And she said to me, Girl, just remember everyone shits on the loo.

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)

Sam Eaton
So basically, everyone does what they need to first thing in the morning. She said, I want you to think about that every time someone scares you. And Sarah, it’s an horrific admission to have to make on your show you and I’m so sorry.

Sarah Noll Wilson
No, I love it!

Sam Eaton
(unintelligible) My career is every – someone once said to me, you have no fear and I didn’t have the heart to tell them why?

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s because I’m imagining you on the toilet every morning in your most vulnerable human state and reminding me that we’re not so different.

Sam Eaton
Yeah, you know, I’ve studied at INSEAD, I’ve done all sorts of qualifications and studies on on human behavior. That one statement, when I was 18 years of age, has just transformed my life.

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) I love it. I love it. My cheeks hurt from laughing, smiling so much. I love it. And no need to apologize. It’s real. It’s valuable.

Sam Eaton
Very real.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And it’s true. I so appreciate you, Sam, I’m so grateful that we were finally able to make it work on the show. I think what we need to do next is we will schedule a proper, you know, what I was thinking is since we didn’t get on to the topic of menopause, and I realized folks, I’m just going to do a, I’ll do a key up at the beginning to be like, hey, we said this. And then we went down to this path. So just bear with us. Yeah. But um, is to do a panel discussion, I think let’s bring on a panel of women. And let’s talk about this, what we had initially had planned. So let’s just plan on that for the future. So I’ll just put that into the universe and let folks know that this this isn’t the last they’ve had of Sam. So Sam, for people who are listening to you and going wow, she was asking some really great questions. I think I need to be asked those questions, or I think the leaders I support need to be asked those questions. What is the best way for people to connect with you to either connect with you personally, or to learn more about the way you support folks in this work?

Sam Eaton
Thank you. Great question. So we I am all over LinkedIn. Sam Eaton Mindability. Mindabilitybusinesscoaching dot com is our website. You will find that we do a lot of work obviously with with helping HR and people based organizations to grow their businesses on their terms. We also do a lot of keynote, well I give a lot of keynotes around some of the topics we’ve covered today, just challenging them and questioning them. So always up for having those kinds of questions and discussions, and also helping certainly more consultative teams and their sales teams have some of these conversations. So they are supporting and empowering their clients in the best possible way. And everyone’s a winner there. So thank you for that opportunity to share that, Sarah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And we’ll be sure to we’ll be sure to share your contact information, your website in the show notes so folks can connect with you. You’re, you’re a gem. I’m so so glad. So glad our paths have crossed and I’m so excited that we get to have future conversations. Thank you, Sam.

Sam Eaton
Thank you for having me, Sarah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Our good guest this week has been Sam Eaton and we had such a glorious conversation and the one question that I’m holding on to, is that one at the end? Who would I be without this thought? I’m a little excited and also a little nervous about asking that at times. But that is such a profound question. And we want to hear from you share with us what resonated, what connections are you making? What are you still curious about and you can send us that message at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. Or you can send me a message on any social media platforms where my DMs are always open. And if you’d like to find out more about how we could support you and your team in having conversations that matter check us out and Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. And if you haven’t yet, be sure to check out my book, Don’t Feed the Elephants! wherever books are sold. And if you’d like to support this podcast, there’s a couple of ways you can do that. The first is to become a patron, you can go to patreon.com/conversations on conversations, where your financial support will 100% go to supporting the team that makes this podcast possible. And you’ll also have access to some pretty great swag. Also, if you haven’t already, please make sure you review, rate and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This is where we are able to get exposure, bring on exciting and amazing guests like Sam and continue to expand our reach.

A big thank you to our amazing team who makes this podcast possible. To our producer Nick Wilson, our sound editor Drew Noll, our transcriptionist Rebecca Reinert, our marketing consultant ksn marketing services and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. And a final thank you, wholehearted thank you to our guests, Sam Eaton for joining us all the way across the pond. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves or others, we can change the world. So be sure to rest, rehydrate and I’ll see you again next week. Bye everyone.