Episode 049: A Conversation on Sexual Harassment with Kirsten Anderson

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Kirsten Anderson as Kirsten shares insights from her experience as the target of sexual harassment and workplace retaliation, her advocacy journey, and her book More Than Words: Turn #MeToo into #ISaidSomething.

Resources Mentioned

• Kirsten’s book, More Than Words: Turn #MeToo into #ISaidSomething is out now.

About Our Guest

Kirsten Anderson is an author, advocate, communication consultant, mom, and a former target of sexual harassment and retaliation. She speaks nationwide and consults organizations and targets to help empower and inspire them to effectively and efficiently end workplace harassment. Kirsten takes pride in normalizing a conversation about the complexities of workplace harassment, bullying, and retaliation to create more engaging and productive workplaces. Kirsten is the author of More Than Words: Turn #MeToo into #ISaidSomething and 2018 Metro Woman of the Year and Inspiring Woman of Iowa Finalist.

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Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more meaningful conversations with ourselves and each other. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And this week, we are having a very important conversation talking about the realities of harassment, specifically focusing on sexual harassment. And so before I bring on my guests, Kirsten Anderson, I do want to take a moment just to acknowledge some trigger warnings of the conversation we’re about to have, we will be talking about stories of harassment, sexual harassment, so do what you need to do to take care of yourself. But I do invite you for those of you who have maybe experienced this, our goal is for you to feel seen and validated. For those of you who maybe haven’t, hopefully, you’ll learn something so that you can stand up more strongly. And if you’re somebody who’s received feedback, we invite you to get really curious, so that you can show up differently. But I’m so excited to have this conversation. It’s been long overdue, and like I said, it’s just really, really important and necessary, especially, especially in the world we’re in where it’s seemingly the numbers just keep increasing and the complexities keep increasing. So let me tell you a little bit about Kirsten. Kirsten Anderson is an author, advocate, communication consultant, mom and former target of sexual harassment and retaliation. She speaks throughout the country and consult organizations and targets to help empower and inspire them to effectively and efficiently end workplace harassment. Kirsten takes pride and normalizing a conversation about the complexities of workplace harassment, bullying, and retaliation in an effort to create more engaging and productive workplaces. Kirsten recently published her new book, More Than Words: Turn Me To Into I Said Something. She’s a 2018 Metro Woman of the Year and an Inspiring Woman of Iowa finalist, welcome to the show, Kirsten.

Kirsten Anderson
Thanks for having me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What else would you want our audience to know about you before we dig into our topic today?

Kirsten Anderson
That I am passionate about, ending workplace harassment, my goal is to see it obliterated in my lifetime.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hmm, I want that for all of us.

Kirsten Anderson
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Need that for all of us.

Kirsten Anderson
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Talk to us a little bit about your journey to this place of advocacy and the work that you do and what you’re so passionate about. And feel free to share as much as little bit as you think it’d be necessary for the audience to know.

Kirsten Anderson
Sure. Well, this whole journey started over a decade ago when I worked in a toxic work environment. It just so happened that it was at our state capitol. And I worked as communications director for the Iowa legislature for five years and that entire time I was sexually harassed, bullied and eventually retaliated against. And when I say toxic work environment, it was – that’s really being nice. I mean it was a (untelligible).

Sarah Noll Wilson
I was going to say, reading your story.

Kirsten Anderson
Yes. That’s pretty tame. It was a locker room environment. It was talking about women’s body parts as if we – right in front of us as if we weren’t even there, it was deplorable talk about you know, everything from race, ethnicity, religious, nothing seemed to be off limits. And I knew that working in the state house in this environment, this was illegal, what was happening to me and my co-workers, it was illegal. And finally I had the courage I got the courage, built up the courage to speak up about it, I asked for the workplace to change. And the fourth time that I asked for it to change, I was summarily fired seven hours, literally seven hours after making the request. So I knew that also fired – me being fired. That was illegal. And I took matters into my own hands and I made the decision to sue my employer for sexual harassment, retaliation and wrongful termination. And that set me on a legal battle that ended up being about four years long. But ultimately, I won. I won my case against the state. And that set me on a path of advocacy. And then I wrote this book to help other targets who have experienced harassment and in in my advocacy work, I have found Sarah, that I, my situation is not unique. There are so many of us, men and women, who have experienced either toxic work environments, sexual harassment, bullying, it’s the it’s the dirty secret that we’re just not talking about. And we have to talk about it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And, and I want to, I want to take a moment because there’s language you’re using, and you talk about this in your book about why you use the word target versus victim. So I want to take a moment just to pause on that. And then I want to go into how how prevalent, I mean, how prevalent it is, whether it’s from a sexual harassment perspective, whether it’s from a racism, you know, we’re seeing a huge rise in attacks to our LGBTQ friends, right, and the trans community. And, and it, it’s so normalized. And you know, it’s either so normalized that we don’t even, you know, some people just don’t even respond to it, or as we’ll get into, there can be a big risk to speaking up. And there’s calculations people make when they are either on the receiving end of it, or they’re seeing it happen. But why, if we’re going to change it, it literally is going to take all of us. So talk to us for a moment about that, that choice of language you use, you know, because that was something that you spoke about of the word victim didn’t feel, did it feel – stuck – like didn’t feel right and almost felt like, you didn’t use this words, but how I was like hearing it was just like, almost like revictimizing you in using the word victim instead of a target. So say more about that.

Kirsten Anderson
Yeah. So what happened to me ended up being very public. My case, and my situation ended up being in the local papers, on local television. It was very public. And every time they referred to me as the victim, I just felt like it was a gut punch. And so it’s really important to me to change the vernacular. And one thing that people they may or may not understand, or they may not realize, so sexual harassment is not about sex. It’s about power and control. And so the people who are on the receiving end of that, those “victims”, their power is taken away from them. They are feeling emotionally so low, and just deplorable. And I experienced this, I felt awful about myself, I didn’t think very highly of myself, I didn’t care, you know, and everything was so public, that hearing that word victim was just a punch to me again. So I use the word “target” instead. Because these, these people who are being harassed and bullied, it’s for a window of time, it really is. And you get out of that situation and you’re able to recover, you’re able to rebuild that self confidence because harassment and bullying, it tears you down. You have the power taken away. So you feel really low. And the word “target” is more of an empowering word. And you’re you were simply the target of harassment at that time.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Kirsten Anderson
And you have the power to take that back and rebuild that self confidence. So I wanted to throw the word victim out the window.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Mm hmm. That’s interesting, because that was one that I was wrestling with, from the standpoint of sometimes, like using the language of victim which, you know, like you understand and can appreciate why, right, right, why that’s used, becomes an identifier of who you are, versus really clarifying what happened to you. Right? What happened to you is you you were targeted, right there, there was an intentionality to dismiss you to demean you to discredit you, to make you uncomfortable, right. And I’m so glad that you made that comment about sexual harassment isn’t about sex, it, you know, kind of any kind of harassment ultimately is about power and control. And, and somebody wanting power over someone, someone wanting to control or get a reaction or, or whatever the case might be. And you know, and I think that one of the things that I want to highlight, you know, especially so we’re for our global audience members, we’re talking about this through the lens of American culture. And some of the data I’ll be sharing is through an American lens, not from a global lens. So I just want to name that, you know, but there’s definitely some interesting stats that you shared in your book, and I wasn’t like I wasn’t surprised by them. And I was still saddened by them, right. The fact that you know, at least 81% of women and 43% of males have experienced some type of sexual harassment. The one that was was really interesting to me is that the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission shared that 75% of people who speak out, are retaliated against, which is no wonder then why 90% of people don’t? Right, like no surprise that when you speak up and speak out, just as you experience, there’s going to be retaliation. What (untelligible).) Yeah, –

Kirsten Anderson
Risk, it’s that risk. And for some people, it’s simply not worth the risk to come forward and speak up.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And if you have a culture that shows that you can’t, and shouldn’t, you know, I think the other thing is, sometimes you can hear stories and go, “God, that’s so obvious. Why did you tolerate that? Or why did you put up with that?” You know, but if this is how – my livelihood and I need financial well being and stability, or maybe this is I’m in a niche organization, and this is the industry, and this is the only opportunity I have. I live in a small town, and everyone knows everyone. I mean, there’s so many, there’s so many calculations. And I think that the thing that was coming up for me, as I was reading your book, and also just reflecting on the work that we do, is don’t assume it’s not happening. Like, actually assume it’s happening. You know, this is something when we talk to groups of leaders about psychological safety. And for those of you who are maybe unfamiliar with that term, it’s the belief that you can speak up without fear of retaliation or punishment, you can speak up, you can disagree, you can share ideas, is that people default to thinking, “Oh, I think I’m safe. I think we’re safe, right?” Like, are we safe or aren’t we, instead of asking the question, well, who gets to be safe? Like who in your organization gets to be safe? And as a leader, I know that I have the greatest power in my organization. So of course, I feel safe. And just because I feel safe, doesn’t mean other people do. I imagine that as you you know, as you have been talking about this and speaking to groups over the years. I can only imagine the stories you’ve heard, you know, what are some of the patterns? Or what are some of the consistent themes that you hear from the folks who share their stories of being a target with you? And you can answer that however it comes up for you.

Kirsten Anderson
Yeah. The stories I’ve heard, run the gamut. It male, female targets. It’s all over the place. And now it’s microaggressions. We’re seeing that. It’s queen bee syndrome, where it’s female on female bullying. And because I think we, as a society have become desensitized almost to the disparaging comments and making it okay to, you know, say mean comments online or talk about people or even flat out spread lies online about others. I think our problems with this are, they’re growing. And it this issue itself, sexual harassment and bullying in the workplace, it’s morphing into something else. And in my experience, and talking with people in different employers, it’s become very clear. The good employers and the bad employers. And the good employers have good healthy cultures. They openly discuss things like this and work to eradicate discrimination, and sexual harassment in the workplace. They have inclusive environments. And they have really good and solid leadership who hold all the other employees accountable. It’s the bad workplaces, those toxic workplaces, who aren’t even open to change, that are experiencing the big problems. And it’s not just sexual harassment, that’s only, seems to be only one piece of the bigger toxic environment puzzle. Notice how all these things are sort of interconnected with each other. Yeah, and it can be hard. It’s like, sometimes you have to pick and choose your battles. And yeah, especially with the bad toxic work environments. That risk of speaking up, it can be so great. I mean, there’s so many other risks at those bad workplaces as well and the question of, well, who really gets to, you know, be protected? Sometimes it’s, yeah, those bad work environments. They are literally protecting the harasser.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and I think it’s, you know, it’s worth noting, at least in our experience, it’s not like equally balanced, I would say that there are fewer organizations that I would describe as doing the work of being willing to be introspective and hold themselves accountable. You know, I think there’s a, I see the spectrum, that there are some that are just so overtly toxic. And you’re like, how, how is this –

Kirsten Anderson
Yeah, How do you not see this?

Sarah Noll Wilson
How does this still exists? But I think the vast majority have people who would describe themselves as good people, you know, who described themselves as good leaders. And, and the level of toleration is really high, whether that is tolerate – gosh, you know, the thing that I see so often, is somebody is technically brilliant. They know a lot, what would we do without them, right? They’re at, and they’re incredibly harmful. There was, you know, some people, I think, Simon Sinek calls them brilliant jerks. There was an article in Harvard that, you know, talked about him as like the toxic rock stars. And in the, you know, thing that we were constantly telling our clients is your culture is created by what you do, and don’t do what you say and don’t say, what you celebrate and what you tolerate. And so often, there’s such a high level of toleration, and they will see it, they will even name it. And we’ll be in conversations with folks. And it’s like, I mean, we’re sitting here going, you’re, you’re sitting on a lawsuit like you, didn’t, you. And and, and we, you know, I say this, not from any place of pride, but 100% of the times when we have said, “You probably have a lawsuit on your hands, because you’re tolerating this,” within a year, that’s what ends up happening.

Kirsten Anderson
Yeah, I’m not surprised.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And that’s what’s so – I mean, I’m sure in your work as well, right? Yeah, just the, the, the tolerating the output for the cost of the input. I mean, that sounds so like technical, but just the the harm that happens to folks. One of the things I Yeah, go ahead, –

Kirsten Anderson
In thinking about that – so in my book, I put sort of a cost benefit analysis of, you know, because, you know, the one thing that employers listen to is the money and the money drives them, right. And so, either – those toxic workplaces, they either don’t want to think about the expensiveness of it. And really, what’s the, you know, the cost, but when I put pencil to paper, and I did the research and looked at, okay, the emotional expensiveness, the lawsuit expensiveness, the the the loss in productivity from those who are being harassed. I mean, employers have so much money to lose. And if they’re not willing to take a look at that and what they’re going to do with that toxic jerk, or the genius jerk, then they’re going to pay the price. Because –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Always.

Kirsten Anderson
I just feel like, in this day and age – if you, if we would have been talking about this 10 years ago, when all of this happened to me, it was a slightly different environment. But nowadays, organizations really need to be on the watch. Or they will literally pay for it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I think, I think the, you know, the one, the one good thing of technology and being in community and conversations with people who maybe you wouldn’t normally is, is normalizing and reinforcing and encouraging people, right, to speak up and to speak out, and especially even if it’s not happening to you. And I think that that, you know, a couple of things have been coming up for me that it is such a significant cost, like, I want you and I both want everyone who’s in a position of power and authority to care about the people that they are supporting. And we know that that’s not always the priority for all people. So if we have to go to the bottom line, right. Even just recently, I had a leader legitimately, genuinely ask the question, “I don’t understand why I should care about people’s feelings.” And it took me off guard a bit. I don’t know if this person was playing devil’s advocate. I don’t know. I don’t I don’t know the intention. You know, but we started to get into it. And you know, their point was, if I – I mean, if we’re productive, then why, why should I care about their emotions? And I was like, well, so on a fundamental level, for me, my ethics and integrity is, that’s a high value of mine is to make sure that people feel safe. And we’re creating an environment where people can thrive, and we’re not adding to their suffering. But, you know, I said, fundamentally, there just is a cost, you will not get the best out of them. Like you just won’t, you might get good enough, but you’re never gonna get great from somebody if you’re not paying attention to do they feel good? Do they feel valued? Do they, you know, the words of Tara J. Frank and her work The Waymaker, she talks about the four needs of talent. To be seen, to be appreciated, respected and protected. Like if those are not present, you will never get someone’s full best self. And –

Kirsten Anderson
What was the definition of productivity is my question then? Did they say?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Also that.

Kirsten Anderson
Yeah, did they they have a skewed view of what that is? Because those four things you just said, that is what helps drive productivity.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. I mean, it’s, I mean, it’s a great, great counter question like, right, and in this, he and I got into it about, like, what does success look like? And I’m like, you know, at the end of the day, you will have turnover, whether you will have turnover, whether that person leaves or doesn’t. Like they will disengage, they resentment will be high, right, they will shut down, they will hold back, they will play small, they will whatever whatever we do as humans in order to protect ourselves in that situation. One of the things, one of the things in your book that I really, I could tell how hard it was for you to speak to, you know, the fact that you found yourself contributing sometimes, and, and I appreciate your honesty, in naming in, in the, the reality of sometimes we do things not only to protect ourselves, but also to like, maintain our access to the power that’s near us, right. And we talk about white, white supremacy, white dominant culture, right. Like, I’m gonna protect my access as a white woman to, right? Like, there are things we we do, and I appreciated you being so honest and forthright about that. And then also speaking to the impact that that had, and I wanted to share with you something that came up for me and I’m curious to get your thoughts. So there’s an author, they are a professor, writer, their name is Alok Vaid-Menon, I might get that last name right. But they’re a non-binary and trans activists in in in one of their books, one of the questions that they ask their students to reflect on – this, this was really coming up for me, as you were talking about, the realization of you became somebody who didn’t want to be in order to just survive, right? Like, if it had an in some way the survival mechanism was, I don’t want to be the target anymore. So how do we deflect it onto something, someone else? But the question that they ask people to reflect on is, what part of you did you have to destroy in order to survive this world? And that, as I was reading that section that was coming up so strongly for me, from the standpoint of in that in those moments of just needing to survive. And, you know, and obviously, like, where you are now in your journey, and what you’re encouraging other people is to, to push against that and to show up differently, right, and to show up with courage. But I’m just curious what comes up for you as I share that because that was that was, I really appreciate your honesty and vulnerability in naming that. And, and I think that’s something that many of us might have found ourselves in of, like, – you know, I sit there and go, maybe maybe I did bully people when I was a kid, and I didn’t realize it because I was just trying to make sure that it was deflected off of me and certainly there have been times where even if I didn’t contribute, I sure as hell didn’t speak up, right. I’m still working on that. Like how do I make sure I speak up so I’m just curious to get your thoughts on that.

Kirsten Anderson
Oh, that’s, wow that’s such a good question. And man that that hits home because as you said, I really – there was a period of time when my fight or flight reaction was to fight fire with fire. And just just to see if if it would deflect from me being the target. So by participating in the jokes, by part by saying the bad disparaging things about my coworker, I became the jerk I became the harasser. And oh, that just it turns my stomach just thinking about it now because I don’t like that person. I consider myself a caregiver, someone who advocates for other people, not someone who pushes people down. And so becoming that person and realizing it, and actively trying to change it, what it was a turning point, but that self actualization was really important on my journey anyway, just to recognize. And I think that’s important for everybody in tackling this particular issue, especially thinking back and really reflecting. That’s how we’re going to build allies. That’s how we’re going to really change environments when you reflect and say, oh, my gosh, maybe I was a contributor. How can I rectify that? How can I be more forthright? How can I be a bystander and an upstander going forward? And maybe it’s tough conversations with people from your past? Maybe it’s tough conversations with loved ones, but that just evokes – yeah, that question evokes a lot of emotions. But it’s, it’s important. It’s really important. I think more people should ask it of each other.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s, uh, it was when I was reading their book that was, you know, was talking about like, gender binary and just educating and when that question came up, it was like, oh, damn, you know, and that might look different for different people. And, you know, something, something else you speak to quite a bit in your book, both from the standpoint of being the target and recognizing there are times when you may have been contributing from from that place of protection and survival, of giving yourself some grace of, of understanding, like this is, this is this is what was happening, this is where I’m coming from, like picking giving grace doesn’t take you off the hook, either. That was the thing that I appreciated and reading, in how you talked about it was that it isn’t just okay, give yourself grace, this is a situation but also like, if I am causing harm, then I do need to reflect and take some ownership of that. And I need to take accountability. And I need to work to change that. And I and I think that that that was such an important message. Because you know, a brain in survival can do funny things. And it’s not usually like the best, right? Like we have to, I feel like, what I’ve learned on my own human journey is for me to show up at my best and to have the impact I want to have, like you said, like, if I want to be nurturing, if I want to do this, it’d be really intentional about that. And to push against, push against some of those survival tactics that we may not even realize are happening, because it’s just, we’re on autopilot.

Kirsten Anderson
You know, that grace that I gave myself, that was sort of a lightbulb moment for me, when I realized I was punishing myself mentally, for being a jerk in thinking about, well, I just I need to fight fire with fire just to get out of the situation. If I do this, the the men in my office, who were primarily men, they’ll respect me, they’ll bring me into the fold. This harassment against me will stop. And so when I didn’t like myself for being the jerk, and I realized that having that grace and saying no, why are you, why are you changing to fit the scenario? It’s the outside environment, they’re doing this to you. How dare they. So I gave myself some grace. And it was like a light bulb went off. And as a human, as humans, I think we need to give ourselves more grace, understanding, and that self actualization just really helped create the grace in my life.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s a, I think that that’s an important practice, right? When we think about building emotional intelligence, and just our sense of self, being able to recognize when we’re showing up in ways that are not as effective, it’s hard. It’s hard, because it hits against that cognitive dissonance, right? I’m a good person. Right? I would never do this to you. I mean, whether that’s, oh, you know, whether it’s moments where we’re not showing up at our best or even when we think about, you know, the individuals who are who are doing the bullying and the harassing, they don’t, maybe they may not consciously look at it. And I’m not trying to excuse their behavior to be really clear. That’s what I wanted. That’s what I was catching myself earlier is like, I wanted to talk about cognitive dissonance and, and how critical it is that if you want to make the impact you want to make you have to be willing to go how might that be true? You know, I think about a leader that I work with. And this is a story I’ve shared a lot because it was such a beautiful story of self actualization and the willingness to go, instead of it going, instead of him going, no there’s no way that’s true. He asked himself the question, how might it be? And it was such a powerful moment, right? He had been given feedback from both men and women that he was behaving in ways that were fairly like not overtly, overtly sexist, misogynistic, but definitely, right, always giving women the tasks of taking notes and right, like putting them into specific roles. He wasn’t asking men, was speaking on behalf of women. Well, I think what she means to say is xy and z. And, and, and it was in his moment of shifting from there’s no way, you know, bristling, to, but how might that be true? And I feel like even on my journey, you know, when I think about, especially my journey, and trying to do more work from an antiracist perspective, when I get feedback, when I get called in I feel like I’m now at a point where I’m like, it’s probably true that that happened. Like I just like, and not from a standpoint of beating myself up and not from a standpoint, but just like, yeah, there’s so much I don’t know, and there’s so much, like, there’s so many ways that we can microagress. And we don’t even realize it, that if I’m getting feedback, like, that’s probably it’s probably true. And I’m going to sit with that. And I’m going to reflect on that. And then I’m going to try to do differently and better.

You I want to, you know, you talked about how when you were experiencing it, you’re going into that sort of fight, fight mode and flight mode. And I think that women listening to this, particularly women, but it may or may not be limited, I’m gonna speak from my experiences being a woman is, you know, sometimes when you’re in those situations, you’re kind of like, did that just really happen? Did that, you know, or you’re so uncomfortable you just sort of laugh at it. And then you’re like, I don’t know why I laughed at it. I didn’t agree with it. But there was something, right, we’ve learned is, again, especially as women in those situations, we’ve learned to – what do I need to do to reduce the threat, so that I can get out of here? Because something I’ve said before, and you know, because of lived experiences, it doesn’t usually work out well for us. When we speak up against, right, like if I say no to a guy, it doesn’t always work out well, like even professionally, I’ve got, unfortunately too many stories to share. But one of the things you talked about that I think is so important, and this really hit me personally hard, is you know, when you’re in those moments that it it, you can be gas lit by other people, but then it can create an internal gaslighting. Right?

Kirsten Anderson
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You talked about the questions you were thinking of. How did I cause this? What did I do to deserve this? How did I respond? And you know that – I had a situation, unfortunately, all too recently, where we were in discussion with a potential client, their behavior started to become – their communication style started to become threatening, almost. And we all were just like, this doesn’t feel right. This doesn’t make us feel good about this partnership. They were being so aggressive and getting to the finish line, that it just threw up some red flags in a way we had never experienced. So we said, you know what, we haven’t contracted or out like, this doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t feel right. And what happened as a result, and I can speak about it sort of like without some emotion, but there’s still very much some emotion there. What happened is when we pulled out of the contract or the negotiations, I received just an onslaught of emails after emails of just harassment, right? Yeah, I can’t believe you did this. This is, you’re the worst. You’re the most immoral person I’ve ever worked with. You’re the – right there was just an unhinged response. That can be easy to be like, well, no, that’s just on them. They just clearly, there’s something not right, they’re having an emotional reaction. It’s unhinged, whatever the case is, but when you are the target, when it is coming to you, and when you have had lived experiences, that that trauma is now coming to the table of every other situation where you’ve experienced that kind of harassment or harm. I found myself, even though it was so obvious, like I had the receipts. We had all the emails of how professional and polite we were, right, and and how we were trying to navigate it that anyone externally would never question, but I was questioning, what did I do to bring this on? What could I have done differently? Was there something I did to trigger this? And so I’m just I would love to hear your thoughts on this because I think it’s really really important that you know, and you hear this year the same kind of stories from you know, just the kind of like the questioning yourself, the doubting yourself that when you’re in a situation you’re like, did I see this? Did that really happen? But I just I would love to dig in more in hear more of your thoughts about that.

Kirsten Anderson
You, yeah, you experienced, we’re gonna unpack a lot of that, gosh, okay. So a few things come to mind, you know, I am a processor. So when I take things in or I experience something, it takes me a bit to recognize and realize, oh, what did you just say that what, what’s really going on here? And everyone else should should do the same. Take a pause, and process. Totally natural. It’s a human reaction, and there’s nothing wrong with it. And all those questions you ask, Oh, my gosh, is it me? What did I do? That’s only natural. It’s also okay to question those situations like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what’s really going on here? Some people are just itching for a fight, I feel like and it doesn’t matter what what you are doing or what your coworkers are doing. You are simply the target of that aggression at that time. And you have no control over, you know, what’s going on on the other end, you can only control your reaction to it. And I think you handled it really well. And I don’t think you should feel and anybody for that matter. They’re the target at the time. Question it, and it’s okay to push back. What I what I didn’t do and or I waited, too late to do was pushed back in a lot of situations. And that’s natural, you know, there’s risk, there’s fear going on in a lot of these situations. But it’s completely okay and people need to know and understand that they can push back, they can ask these questions, they can challenge others. You know, challenging somebody else in the workplace isn’t going to get you fired? You know, I feel like, as humans, we want the best for each other, generally speaking, we do. And that’s not going to get people in trouble challenging for being better. It’s hard because it’s so emotionally driven.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Well, and and, you know, and remind me did you grew up in the Midwest? Was – is this your birthright?

Kirsten Anderson
Yep.

Sarah Noll Wilson
So as like good, Midwest, white women were raised to be polite.

Kirsten Anderson
We are conditioned to be polite.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Conditioned, right? We’re conditioned. When I say raised, I don’t mean like my parents or your parents, like we are conditioned, we are conditioned to be nice, we are conditioned to be, like, subservient. And, and you know, and one of the things when I talk about with colleagues of mine, who might have different backgrounds, different lived experiences, and like, so much of our conditioning is to be liked, not necessarily to be safe or to be respected. And that was something I definitely was a theme as I was reading your book of like, pushing against that social conditioning of, you know, and every every culture is different, but just speaking from, you know, lived experiences, everyone, but most of the people who I’m in conversation with outside of clients, right, are like, yeah, we, you know, and the niceness is – there’s a great book by Regina Jackson, and Saira, Rao, White Women: What You Know About Your Racism and How To Do Better, and they’re like, your niceness is killing us and it’s killing you.

Kirsten Anderson
That’s true.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And – it is and it’s, you know, and, and the thing that the thing that is important for us to hold on to, I think, and I am curious to I want to I want to dig into this with you as well is one of the things that can make it less scary and speaking up because I mean, yeah, I hear you when you say like, well, if you challenge people, you don’t lose your job, but you you can because you did and we see it right, like, it does happen. It’s not you know, but there are things that I sit there in my head and I go man, if you’re experiencing harassment, document, like if you’re experiencing it, like get, you know, like get receipts, but the other part of it is how do we be better allies? And that word is a little bit loaded, right? I don’t get to this. I don’t get to declare I’m an ally. Right? But like how do you use the language upstander and bystander. So say more about, say more about that. Because that, you know, whatever group is being harmed and marginalized, if we are witnessing it, if we see it and even if we don’t say anything, I think the thing that’s so important is you not saying anything is condoning that behavior.

Kirsten Anderson
It’s absolutely condoning that behavior. And what I experienced in my toxic work environment, there were very powerful women who witnessed me being a target of harassment. And they did nothing. And they said nothing. Even after I was fired, they did nothing and said nothing. And that is akin to doing the harassment. When you are in a position of power, and you say and do nothing. And you have the ability to do so. That’s condonment, right. And so I feel very strongly that if we’re going to change these environments, it’s going to take allies, and this bystander, and upstander, sort of movement. And that’s simply means having each other’s backs and saying something, and it doesn’t have to be much. But when we witness or experience something, just putting a pause on it, and saying, “Hey, did I hear you right?” Or. “Please don’t say that again.” Or, “Have you taken the harassment training that we get every year? Maybe you should retake it?” Or you know, “Did you really just say that to Jane Doe over there, I don’t think she would appreciate that.” Little things that don’t maybe seem like much, but they’re really powerful. And that’s what’s going to move the needle, it’s gonna be bystander upstander intervention.

Sarah Noll Wilson
One of the things you talk about that I really appreciate is, you know, just naming and how that can be scary and a risk for people. And again, depending on your culture, conditioning, and the power you have, informally or formally, and one of the things you encourage people is like, find a couple of phrases and practice them, practice them over and over and over. So in that moment, in that moment, you can speak up and speak out in a way that is, you know, hopefully can help de escalate or if nothing else, it just holds up a mirror to say, hey, that’s not okay.

Kirsten Anderson
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I don’t know what you’re, you know, I find myself – I have a couple of I have a couple of phrases as I’m continuing to build that muscle. There’s, you know, it’s it’s interesting, because there’s definitely areas of my life where I feel very emboldened. And I feel very confident, and I feel very courageous. Certainly, when somebody is hiring me as a consultant, it’s sort of, I’m ready to be fired at any moment. Right? Like, you’re literally hiring me to help you be better. And so I’m going to hold up this mirror. I certainly will miss there’s lots of times I miss things because I just don’t realize it. But I feel really emboldened but then there might be other times where I feel really triggered and like, I don’t know how to respond to this or, or another thing I have to be aware of is again, another white dominant characteristic is perfectionism. I’m not gonna speak up unless I’m gonna get it right or I’m gonna say it perfectly, or it’s not gonna cause a reaction. And the reality is like, you’re gonna mess up there. Are there going to be times where you can’t control the other person’s reaction, but I love that push up. What’s the simple language the simple like, hey, that’s not okay. I like the language. I don’t know what your intention was, but this was your impact. Or it’s okay that you’re angry. It’s not okay, that that’s what I use a lot. Like, it’s okay that you’re angry. It’s not okay, that you’re this one, one that was interesting. That I haven’t, I haven’t had to use but I’ve, I’ve, it’s in my arsenal now. That happened when I was experiencing – I was, I was in a conversation and there was just like, a lot of graphic description of violence against women that wasn’t appropriate to the situation. So it was a conversation, it was an interview I was doing and, and, and it made me so uncomfortable. I was like, I don’t – why are like this doesn’t even why are we like you’re sensationalizing someone’s trauma to make your point, right. And so it was, it was a man and needless to say, we didn’t air that interview. But when I was talking to my therapist about I was like I was having I said, I was having strong trauma reaction that I was so paralyzed. I was like, I don’t even know how to respond this and I just went into like uh huh, like, and and she gave me really powerful language that she had to learn as a therapist because she said, sometimes people will come in and they want to share things to just kind of push you or to see how far you’ll go. She said, particularly like, she’ll see that with men. And the question that she’ll ask them is, how did you want me to feel when you shared that? And I really love that. I love that because it pushes some curiosity of just how did you want me to feel when you when you said that is really powerful. But But you’re right, like if we’re not used to that. And if we already are working on our courage, right, and pushing past the social conditioning, practicing it, just practicing it and being able to show up in those moments.

Kirsten Anderson
Yeah, having that having that practice, I think is, well, when you verbalize something, you make it real.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Kirsten Anderson
And the more you can practice verbalizing it at home, or having that in your back pocket, you can be at the ready. Because in those moments, those are those moments are critical and thought provoking for the other person.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Kirsten Anderson
And that’s your window of opportunity to make the change. That’s how I look at it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
No, I think that that’s so beautiful. And I think that, you know, when we when we think about any of these areas of sort of consistent harassment and oppression, whether it’s sexual harassment, whether it’s, you know, racism, or sexism or homophobia are homophobic behavior, or transphobic, or insert, right, and, you know, harassment towards disabled people, right? Like the list goes on and on. It’s really important for those of us who are part of the identifying group of the person doing the harassing to speak up, you know, so often, the work of like, sexism is, hey, women, how do we empower you? And it’s like, no, man, you need to call that shit out. Like you need to be like, you need to name the locker room talk. And as white people, we need to call out that we need to call out the racist stuff, we need to be the one to, to show up in those moments, not the only ones. But we absolutely have a huge, huge obligation. And sometimes I think the work gets pushed on to the people who are the targets, instead of the people who can speak up, and I couldn’t help. I couldn’t help but wonder. And again, like, as you were sharing your story in your book, I understand why people were scared to stand with you. I understand why colleagues, like, I understood it. I wasn’t happy about it for you. But I couldn’t help but wonder how different might that situation have been? And maybe not, but how different might it have been had you had some ounce of people having your back, some ounce of support? And, you know, because that’s something too, that you talk about is just the impact of experiencing the harassment, the impact of speaking up and standing with courage, the impact it had on you having to go through the trial, like base, you know, like, that’s not, it’s not for everyone. I mean, you know, took you almost five years, and I can’t even imagine the emotional and mental toll that that took on you.

Kirsten Anderson
I just had to realize, you know, support comes in many different ways. And while a lot of my co-workers weren’t vocal and upfront, and out in the open with their support, they were behind the scenes supporting me, you know, in texting me, and they, they testified at trial. And they backed me up, and they backed up everything I said, and sort of proved the toxic environment and it mattered, it really mattered then. So I don’t want to discount all types of support. But, it just shows up in different ways. And I don’t want to judge people for their decisions, that there’s a lot of misunderstanding around targets of harassment, the issue itself and so yeah. I – yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, taking the taking the risks to testify is significant. I think some I think sometimes like support in the shadows. For me, so this might be where you and I disagree. Like this is something I have to push myself on is like somebody saying something terrible to me, and you’re not saying something in the moment, but afterwards, you’re like, man, that sucks. Like, that’s fine. That’s like, I appreciate you reaching out. But like I needed the support in the moment, right like I needed I needed I needed that in the moment. And like when you needed them, they showed up, right, when you needed them to testify, they showed up. And I think that that, it just I say that again, like on my own journey of how do I be a better advocate? How do I be a better upstander? How do I is that it can be really easy to support in the text and not in the moment. And you know, and that was something I, you had talked about an experience of a family member who is like a little like, not as I mean, you know, where I’m going with this.

Kirsten Anderson
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
But like, not as supportive, maybe quiet even after, you know, you, you won your case asking you, was it worth it? And then realizing like, no, this was just bringing up a ton of trauma for them. And the point you said that I really appreciated it is I’d never, I never clarified how I needed support. And I think that’s that was such a beautiful point of reflection for all of us to go if we’re struggling with something to it, maybe we don’t know, maybe I don’t know what I need, but here’s how I’m feeling. But to be able to ask for it.

Kirsten Anderson
It’s absolutely okay to to say that and just admit that and vocalize it. Yeah. I mean, – I think that that’s so important. And that realization for me, was helpful on my journey that, oh, yeah. Well, if I don’t say what I need, who’s going to know?

Sarah Noll Wilson
And being and I think, you know, when I think about my experience, when I think about the situation that I shared earlier about the individual who, who lashed out, and the only word I would use his unhinged, became unhinged. And when I say unhinged, I didn’t mean I got one email. I got like six emails in a matter of like, four minutes. And one of those email says, just forget that I even exist, like a professional moment.

Kirsten Anderson
Wow.

Sarah Noll Wilson
But what I what I realized that I, which is totally to be clear, I want to be really clear. 99.9% of the companies we work with are incredible and amazing. And want to like do well, this was a very much a, an outlier experience. But I realized when I was getting into the fawn response, when I was getting into beating myself up, what did I do, right, when I was gaslighting myself, I literally asked my husband, Nick, I said, remind me, state really objectively what happened to me, like state, like I needed, I needed someone to be like, they threatened you. They questioned you. They they called you names, because I couldn’t – It’s like, I couldn’t see that. I could see it, but I couldn’t get there myself. And so in that moment, and now I sort of know that like, Oh, if I’m getting into a rumination or beating myself up, I need somebody to be like, Hey, this is actually what happened to you.

Kirsten Anderson
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And now I can ask for that. And I think that’s that was such an important –

Kirsten Anderson
That’s powerful, Sarah. I mean, –

Sarah Noll Wilson
It certainly was –

Kirsten Anderson
That’s power. That’s taking back power, I think.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah. Because in those situations, like you said, like, it’s all about power. It’s all about control. It’s all about dominating. And, and, you know, that’s something else I would love to, you know, just spend a little bit of time while we have some time left is that, how do we reclaim our power? What were some of the things that helped you heal and reclaim your power?

Kirsten Anderson
Yeah, so for me, it’s different for everybody. But taking back that power, and rebuilding my self confidence meant I was writing, I’m a writer. And part of that for me, I journaled a lot and writing my thoughts out and putting them together is really therapeutic writing this book.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I wondered.

Kirsten Anderson
And it really helped me regain my power. I emotionally I mean, I had gotten to a low point, you know, I went to therapy, and that helps. Antidepressant drugs also helped, I’m not going to lie. All these, all these things, being with my family, family time, time away from the toxic work environment. Oh my gosh. Being fired from that, and being forced to go away from that toxic work environment that helped. It didn’t help my career but I’m just say mentally, forcefully get me away from there. It helped.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure. Yeah. Yes. As shocking as I’m sure it was in the moment, right. Because literally, that you know, within the end of the day, you get called in and –

Kirsten Anderson
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And not only did you get called in but it’s like, we’re gonna let you go. You can either resign and we’ll give you a recommendation and you’re like, why would you give me a recommendation You’re firing me you you can, you know, like, or you can leave. There was a couple a couple of things that you you shared in your chapter nine on heal your own way that I think are really valuable to share. One, you’ll never fully figure it out. I think that sometimes when when we can be experiencing something painful or targeted, that we want to understand why or – yeah, it’s rarely about you, I think is a really important reminder that when someone’s acting out in that way, it’s, it’s not about you, it’s about them. You know, the whole idea of throw any preconceived notions of neat and tidy closure out the window, I know that that was something that you really wrestled with, like, I just wanted an apology. I wanted an acknowledgement. And so often in these situations, I think you even said in your experience, like I’ve never seen somebody who did the harassing apologize.

Kirsten Anderson
Never, not once, never.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It even that folks like that. I mean, that’s work for all of us to go, when have there been times when we have done something that have caused harm? And how, how can we like, lean into that with an incredible amount of humility? And own that because, you know, well, let me I want to share the last one, I want to come back to this. But know, one day that your pain will be less severe, I think is really, that was really powerful. The, you know, going back to that idea, so often, what we see in workplaces is if something like this happens, and you refer to it as like the “knock it off”, like to say, Hey, knock it off, Bob, or knock it off Jill, or knock it off, whoever like, hey, just stop doing that. Or, or we see situations where so I’m speaking to you, HR folks, I’m speaking to you leaders who have control over these situations, the problems just moved, but it’s never resolved, like, oh, he can’t get along with this person, you know, or these types of people, we’re just going to move them to a different shift, or we’re going to just, and there’s no healing as an organization in these moments doesn’t happen just because you shift the problem. I mean it just won’t happen. And and there’s no reflection and there’s no education, there’s no helping that person to understand why they did what they did, was so harmful. Now you can’t force them to understand or to agree with it. Right. But if the, if the response is just we’re removing the problem, and then we’re not addressing it, that can just further the harm. And not only that, but I think something that I see is, you know, organizations will eventually get to a point where maybe somebody toxic gets removed, like eventually. And let’s be clear, usually it takes like, there’s a lot of tolerating that gets to that point. You know, sometimes I’m like, how many bodies? Like how many more bodies do you need?

Kirsten Anderson
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And then and then what’s missing is, is the the reflection on – and this is part of the work that we’re so passionate about. How do we as an organization, really reflect and get curious, really curious, and courageously curious about, why did we, why did we tolerate that for so long? What did we do that contributed to it? And what do we have to do to make sure that that doesn’t happen again? Because I think sometimes it’s like, well, we’ve shifted it, we’ve moved it. We’ve rubbed our hands of it, we’ve washed our hands of it, instead of like, yeah, that person worked here for 20 years. This person was beloved, they were promoted. There’s something about our culture that contributed to this. And that that part, I don’t see that near enough. I don’t see the reflection individually, I don’t see the whole, you know, holding accountable other than just shifting the problem, and they don’t see the reflection as an organization, as as much as I would like to. For sure.

Kirsten Anderson
Yeah, those those workplaces are – the good workplaces will ask the questions.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Kirsten Anderson
Right. They want to know they want to change. It’s the bad workplaces that don’t even want to ask the question. Right. Because they’re afraid of the answer. And they’re afraid of the change.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. And what will this mean for me?

Kirsten Anderson
They think, wrongly so, that it’ll be too disruptive?

Sarah Noll Wilson
What do you have any do you have any examples where like, not you, we don’t need to go into specifics. And I want to be thoughtful of time, but like, we’ve witnessed what is possible when people ask the question, and it’s individually within relationships within organizations. And when there’s reflection when there’s ownership when there’s a commitment to do differently. It always increases the psychological safety or at least it sets or at least it primes, the, the foundation that we can go to a further place like maybe people aren’t there yet, but we can we can get there. And I’m sure you I’m sure you’ve seen lots. Hopefully you’ve seen some stories of those kinds of turn arounds.

Kirsten Anderson
Yeah, those good places and I I think it can be boiled down to one word, trust. And when you have a seat – when you give your employees a seat at the table, and when you have accountability, and when you build psychological safety, and your employees are productive, and they feel okay to take risks and be their authentic selves, it’s trust. And those organizations, they know how to handle it. They know how to give it out, and they know how to deal with it appropriately. Trust is a powerful thing. And I think those organizations, they have it, and they know what to do with it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. And they know that it’s not something that’s done. They know that it’s like a constant act. I think that’s the thing when I think about the leadership teams, that I would describe as, like, more moments of amazing than not, because there’s always going to be, you know, bumps, but like, they understand that it is an active choice. Every time. Every conversation is like a moment that we’re building, or not.

Kirsten Anderson
It’s an active word that trust. It’s active.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Kirsten, this has been such a treat to have you on the show, I always ask our guests this final question. And I realized I didn’t send it to you see, if you need a moment to think about it, and you’ve shared some of it. But I’m curious what else comes up for you, you know, in the spirit of, of the idea of how do we change the conversations we have with ourselves and others. What was the conversation you had with yourself or with someone else that was transformative for you?

Kirsten Anderson
It was myself, it was a conversation with myself and the the manager that I currently have, my current employer. And he said to me, you are a professional, you are hired for a job, you have a right to be here. And that was almost like a permission conversation. I and I still struggle with it sometimes impostor syndrome, and feeling like oh, I’m not good enough, do I really deserve this job. And because my self confidence had been broken down, and it was so low after experiencing this toxic work environment, and the sexual harassment, you know, I had been whittled down to someone I didn’t like, and my confidence was so low, and having this new conversation about being a good professional and a good writer, and I’m where I need to be, and I’m doing a good job. Like that was permission. I’m not an imposter. I’m doing good work. And I don’t know, I think that was transformative, and more people need to have that type of conversation. They deserve that type of respect.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that. Kirsten for people who are at home listening to this or in their cars or at their work. And they’re interested in how do I work with her? What would it look like for me to bring her into our organization or to have some consulting work? What’s the best way for them to connect with you?

Kirsten Anderson
Probably through my website, Kirsten Anderson dot O R G.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Perfect. And we will be sure to put that in the show notes. And we, you know, again, I know a lot of our friends listening are in the HR space. And so Kirsten is a dynamic speaker, you can tell how passionate she is, how informed she is and if this is something, you want to make sure that you’re not a company, where 90% of the people are saying no, I’m not gonna, I’m not going to, right. If you want to become the company where you make it really safe for people to speak up, speak out and to be protected, be sure to connect with her. Kirsten, thank you so much for being on the show.

Kirsten Anderson
Thanks for having me. And having a great conversation with me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been Kirsten Anderson. And one of the things that I’ve definitely taken away from this conversation is that idea of practicing, what am I going to say in moments when I’m observing, witnessing or experiencing some form of harassment. And you know, there’s such common situations that we can be prepared for these. So that’s something that I’m going to keep working on. And I’m just so grateful that she put her story out in the way she did and told it so vulnerably and hopefully for those of you who are listening who’ve maybe experienced something similar. You know, she and I were talking afterwards that we just hope that this helps you feel seen and validated and hopefully gives you some more tools so that you can move forward in a way that feels really good for you. And we want to hear from you. So if there are things that resonated if there’s things that came up for you, you can reach out to us at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. Or you can find me on social media where my DMs are always open and we want to hear from you. We’d love to hear from you. So be sure to to drop a note and let us know you know what resonated. What are some of the conversations that have been most meaningful for you? Or what conversations do you want us to explore?

And if you’d like to find out more about the work we do to help you and your team have more meaningful conversations and build the relationships that matter. Check us out at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. And if you haven’t picked up my book, check it out. Don’t Feed the Elephants! wherever books are sold. It is my love letter to fellow avoiders of conflict. And if you’d like to support the show, you can do so in two ways. The first is becoming a patron you can go to patreon.com/conversations on conversations, where your financial support directly and 100% supports the staff and the team that makes this podcast possible. And another way you can do that is by making sure you rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This – doing that helps us gain exposure so we can bring in really great guests like Kirsten. Thanks to our incredible team who makes this podcast possible, to our producer Nick Wilson, sound editor Drew Noll, transcriptionists Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant,ksn marketing services, and the entire SNoWCo. crew. And a final thank you to our guests Kirsten Anderson for sharing so vulnerably her experience and helping us all show up and do better. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others we can change the world so be sure to rest, rehydrate and we’ll see you again next week.