Episode 054: A Conversation on Conscious Leadership with Kristen Harcourt

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Kristen Harcourt as they explore what it means to be a conscious leader.

About Our Guest

With over 15-years as a People and Culture Leader partnering with hundreds of companies worldwide, Kristen empowers executives and leaders at all levels to build lives and organizations of success, health and sustainability.

Kristen excels at guiding leaders to achieve extraordinary and sustainable results through increased self-awareness, emotional intelligence, and mindfulness. Her client companies are diverse and her results consistent. Her passion for leadership development and creating positive work cultures shines through it all.

An expert in Leadership Development, she hosts a bi-weekly podcast called Inspirational Leadership where she interviews progressive CEOs, strategic HR leaders and forward-thinking experts who share her mission for humanizing work and transforming leaders.

A keen student of human nature, Kristen earned an Honours Bachelor of Arts in Sociology and Psychology at McMaster University. She holds her CPCC and PCC designation through The International Coaching Federation (ICF). She’s also a member of the Canadian Association of Professional Speakers (CAPS).

A big believer in compassion, authenticity and conscious leadership, Kristen’s mission is to help leaders transform from the inside out so they can create a meaningful career and purpose-driven life and reach their full potential.

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Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and with each other. I am your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me this week, our guest is Kristen Harcourt. And let me tell you a little bit about Kristen, her background before we dig into this topic of conscious leadership, which I’m so excited about. So with over 15 years as a people and culture leader partnering with hundreds of companies worldwide, Kristen empowers executives and leaders at all levels to build lives and organizations of success, health and sustainability. Kristen excels at guiding leaders to achieve extraordinary and sustainable results through increased self-awareness, emotional intelligence and mindfulness. Her client companies are diverse and her results are consistent. Her passion for leadership development and creating positive work culture shines through all of it. As an expert in leadership development she hosts a bi-weekly podcast called Inspirational Leadership where she interviews progressive CEOs, strategic HR leaders and forward thinking experts who share her mission for humanizing work and transforming leaders. We’ll be sure to tag a link to her show. I had the privilege of being on it a little while back. A keen student of human nature. Kristen earned an honors Bachelor of Arts in Sociology and Psychology at McMaster University. She holds her CPCC and her PCC designation through the International Coaching Federation. She’s also a member of the Canadian Association of Professional Speakers. A big believer in compassion, authenticity and conscious leadership, Kristen’s mission is to help leaders transform from the inside out so they can create meaningful career and purpose driven lives and reach their full potential. Kristen. Hi, and welcome to the show.

Kristen Harcourt
Hello, Sarah. So good to be here.

Sarah Noll Wilson
We made it. We’re here and we are together finally. What else would you like people to know about you?

Kristen Harcourt
Wow, what else would I like people to know, I, you know, I think I try to even with talking with my bio is to bring in the whole person. But I guess if I was going to talk about some other things, I’m a proud mom of a 10 and a 13-year-old and a beautiful little boxer whose name is Harley. And you know, for me, it’s everyday getting being able to have what we’re doing right now and be able to connect human to human and have conversations with people, and really just be able to see each other. Nothing makes me happier. So of course us having a conversation and the name of your podcast. It’s like you’re speaking my language Sarah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, I love it. I love it. What – so talk to us, like go a little bit back beyond before we dig into this idea and the practices of conscious leadership. What was your journey? You know, where did you start? And what led you on this path to doing the work that you’re doing with leaders?

Kristen Harcourt
Yeah, it’s so interesting. I mean, I realize now that I’ve been coaching all of my life, and really doing what coaching is, which is not about telling people and giving them advice, but always having insatiable curiosity, and asking people questions and getting them to ask themselves questions and guiding and I even was looking back at these emails back as like a 13, 14-year-old and friend saying, like, I really feel like I know myself better by what you said, and thank you for taking me on this journey. And but I didn’t know that’s called coaching. Like there was no language for that. And so one of the things I loved doing so much Sarah was, like really reflecting the brilliance back to people. I just was – so often I would hear them have so many, so much negative self talk and self sabotage and not really listening to what was true for themselves and doing what they thought they should do and following other people’s paths. And, you know, I think it’s something I was cognizant, even as a youngster as I started going to high school, university. I wasn’t sure what my path was, but I was open to self discovery and exploration to figure out what that path was.

So I would say there was a history of really loving coaching but not an understanding that that’s a field and a career that I could get paid money for. If someone told me that back in high school, I’d say sign me up. I just I didn’t know and I kind of explored things like child psychology and things like that because I’ve always been very fascinated with children and which is why I was so excited to become a mom one day, but I think the journey what it looked like is it definitely wasn’t linear, it zigged and zagged. I what – I still wasn’t really sure what I wanted to do when I graduated with a university degree in sociology and psychology, it really opens you up for everything. And I didn’t really have the language back then either to know like, I’m a generalist, like I like to do a lot of different things. That’s what keeps me excited and lit up and eventually what ended up happening is, my first couple of leaders were what I would say the opposite of conscious leadership. And I started to think, okay, I guess this is what corporate looks like. I guess this is what I signed myself up for, I just have to figure out how to navigate this. But then I had right after that the really toxic leaders, some amazing, amazing conscious leaders, which helped me see through that contrast, oh, no, no, this is what’s possible. And we just have a whole bunch of leaders for a variety of reasons that are not showing up as their most resourceful self. And that’s when I started to recognize that’s my pathway, my pathway is to be in there helping to create more human workplaces by essentially helping every individual go on that inward journey to become the best versions of themselves.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You, you know, you’re hearing you talk about that, the almost the surrendering to well, the – my brain is not serving me in this moment. But the resignation of well it just is what it is like this must just be corporate America is, you know, what was coming up for me as you’re talking is, I think so many people have never experienced anything other than maybe average, mediocre, or at worse toxic managers or workplaces. And you know, or whether that’s a manager, leader, or even just a team, I think that’s something that we’ve been reflecting on is when you don’t even know what’s possible, it’s hard for you to even imagine like if you’ve never experienced it. So talk to us about this language of conscious leadership, how would you define it to somebody who’s unfamiliar with that?

Kristen Harcourt
Absolutely. So I’m going to talk through kind of what my definition looks like. And then there’s a group called the Conscious Leadership Group, and I’m very passionate about the work that they’re doing. For me, when I really started to use that language of conscious leadership, it was around that combination of self-awareness, mindfulness and emotional intelligence, because the individual is becoming more aware of who they are and how they’re showing up. And sometimes that’s also through feedback from others, then they’re becoming more mindful of every action, every behavior, from that place of the present moment, that’s when we have the ability to have that presence and connect most deeply with the humans around us. And then I bring in the emotional intelligence piece, because ultimately, when you’re around a bunch of humans, there is no way you are not going to be triggered. It’s just the way, what comes up. There’s a whole bunch of stuff that comes up for us in our day to day lives. I believe it’s a gift for our healing. Maybe not everybody sees it that way. But I really do. And so through that, right, you’re, you’re taking it as an opportunity, those times that you’re triggered around, like what, let’s take a step back. What is this here to teach me? And that’s again, that level of consciousness, because you’re shifting, you’re changing the way that you’re showing up and responding to what’s happening in your day to day. And so this is where I like to say that it’s not an external journey, it’s an internal towards an external, and then that’s when you get to see the beautiful effects in the external world. So that’s what I’d say from my end.

The conscious leadership group and an aspect I love with their model, and I talk a lot about with leaders is that model that talks about when you’re above the line, or when you’re below the line. And so when you’re going below the line, everything’s happening to me, right, it’s reactive, it’s going into a victim mentality. It’s, I don’t like the way things are, and it shouldn’t be like this. So it’s, it’s not very resourceful. When you go above the line. It’s happening by me, now, all of a sudden, you’re the creator, you’re coming from a place of curiosity from learning and growth. And so when I came across their model, and I’ve been talking conscious leadership forever, and my friend said, I think you’d like this group, because they’re talking all the language you’ve been talking about for the last 15 years. And it just, I liked that they had some frameworks that helped to make it even more concrete, to help leaders really understand that distinction of what it looks like to be empowered, and be able to take responsibility of the way you show up and not blaming it on everybody else out there is creating my reality.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What – you know, one of the things I’m curious about because there’s so much that I love about that whole practice of above the line below the line. And there’s a little part of me that though that wonders when when does that get misused? Right? So and I’m curious to hear your thoughts on that because sometimes I think there can be this, you know, conversations around accountability. Taking responsibility, right, that empowerment. They’re really important and sometimes there are situations where you are the victim, right, you know, like, which is different than feeling like you are the victim. And, you know, like, and I talk about this, and this is something that we explore in our world of, you know, so much of our work is is anchored in curiosity, that sometimes curiosity can be weaponized. And what I mean by that is, you know, when we invite people to get curious about other people, for example, I might not ask that of somebody who has on the receiving end of harassment or on the receiving end. So so, you know, I want to I want to explore situations where it’s really valuable, but that I was just having a strong reaction, because I can see potentially where people are like, no, you’re below the line when someone is actually experiencing something harmful to them. So I’m curious to get your thoughts on that.

Kristen Harcourt
Absolutely. I think that the distinction and the difference there is if someone – okay, first of all, the first thing I would say is we go below the line all day long. So this is something that we’re constantly working to progress and recognize those times. So I would say if someone is at a stage where they’re in, they are experiencing, whether that’s microaggressions or their experience something where they’re not feeling safe. They’re not going below the line when they start to say, I’m not feeling safe here. I’m not feeling like I’m getting what I need. So that person, if they’re starting to say, well, you’re going below the line, well, actually, that’s not what they’re doing at all. That’s not what they’re doing, I think, actually, to be able to have courageous conversations, to ask for what you need, to be able to advocate any of those things, that’s actually going above the line. So if that person was actually saying that with a scenario you’ve given, they’re the ones who have gone below the line, and they’re wanting to deflect what’s happening in that situation, right. So what I do see sometimes are where a leader might be coming and actually noticing that they’re being a little bit self-righteous, the way they’re describing somebody else being below the line. And as we investigate more, it’s like, it seems like you might be joining them a little bit around what’s happening over here. And eventually, while that can be a bit holding a mirror, they they start to recognize, oh, yeah, like I’m talking, I’m talking about them being a difficult person, how am I maybe being a difficult person here as well. But absolutely, Sarah, with what you’re saying, when somebody is ever in a situation where they do not feel safe, where – I’m a big proponent like you around psychological safety, and making sure even when someone’s having a conversation with someone and inviting them in, when we talk about authenticity, not everybody gets invited into that conversation, because they haven’t earned the right to be there. That is not going below the line at all. That’s actually going above the line.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I really appreciate how you teased that out because I think sometimes what I see is that really eager leaders, really eager HR professionals, right, like they can hold on to it. And they can use these tools and these frameworks and these approaches to do exactly what you were saying. Like to deflect from the actual conversation or to deflect from their discomfort, right to, to minimize or dismiss or criticize. And so I really appreciate you answering it and teasing it out the way you did. Because I think that that’s just a trap that that I see folks can fall into even with our work, I have to be careful, like, curiosity is an invitation, not a prescription.

Kristen Harcourt
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, like I let’s let’s make sure that that’s like being applied to all situations, because we know, we’ve seen it, we’ve probably have experienced it to where not everyone’s given the benefit of the doubt. And usually the people who are given the benefit of the doubt are the people who already have the power, whether it’s informally or formally and the people who who don’t have that. Yeah. So I appreciate.

Kristen Harcourt
Absolutely, Sarah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
One of the things that I’m curious to hear from you and your practice is where to start. And, you know, I just got asked the question the other day of you know, what, if somebody is just not, they’re just not ready, they’re not there. And I know that that’s something that we’re all on a continuum at various times in our lives, probably within the day of our readiness and our willingness to do this work. And so, you know, what are the things? Let me let me start by asking it this way, what are the things that you observe in someone who you can see is is ready? And maybe willing? Because I think that sometimes I see folks like, oh, yeah, no, I mean, we’re all capable of it. Well, everyone’s capable of it, but not everyone’s just ready for it. And so I’m curious, like, what do you observe in leaders that gives you the sense of okay, they’re ready to start some deeper work. So let’s start with that question.

Kristen Harcourt
I think it’s a really, really important question. And it’s really interesting. So one of the first things that I say is that I meet people where they are. So if we think about that continuum in a spectrum, I would say a huge percentage of leaders who start working with me, they have no idea where we’re gonna go. It’s not like I’m keeping it a secret. It’s just there is an there’s an appetite and a willingness. And what I see in them is, yeah, I do want to learn more, I do want to understand myself better. I do know that there are times where I’m not, that there’s struggles. And I’m not showing up the way that I would like to show up. But I don’t necessarily have the tools in my toolkit to know how to do that. And there’s a level of vulnerability I find with all the leaders that I – a level of vulnerability and a level of humilit. That humility is, I don’t know it all. I don’t think I know it all. And I want help to understand some of the parts of it that I don’t understand. I’d say that’s a big thing that I see with that willingness to learn and go on the journey. There’s also this level of vulnerability, and it doesn’t necessarily always come right away.

But I do find, and it’s probably the leaders that I attract, because they’re ready for this part of the journey. And I think we build trust very quickly, is they start to share, like I, you know, I feel so honored, Kristen, that I now have the sounding board where I can share and I don’t have to feel like I know it all. I don’t have to feel like I’m somehow inferior, or that it’s a weakness to not know it all. I especially Sarah, I especially see this in HR leaders. I think there are so many HR leaders that really, really need help, but they will not ask for it because they feel like they’re supposed to be the expert. This is the work they do with the organization. Yet they are struggling big time. And so I think that there’s this willingness, this humility, and this vulnerability and acceptance. There’s an acceptance that I’m not supposed to know it all, I’m not, and then so they go on this journey. And there’s, they’re not 100% sure what they signed up for, but they’re like, okay, I’ll take, I’ll put my toe in the water. And I’ll start on this and I’ll take baby steps. And then the more they get into it, the more safe that they feel. And the more secure they realize, like, oh, wow, like, there’s now somebody championing me. And I love this, whether it’s one on one, or when we’re doing groups, Sarah, and all of the work that you’re doing in training, they feel less alone. And they realize like, okay, I can experiment, I can practice things, and it’s not going to always go well. But that’s okay. That’s not the goal here. It’s to like, yeah, this didn’t work, but I’m going to try again, or it got me to another iteration that I never would have gotten to.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I mean, there’s two things that you hit on that. There’s such consistent patterns. One, you know, one is that sense of being alone, of, especially as people move through higher levels of the organization, they just have, they either have actually or they feel like they have fewer people to talk to or to you know, be messy with. And then that point you made about how do we, how do we keep reminding ourselves that there’s just things you’re not going to know. There’s just things that you’re, you know, like are you’re gonna mess it up, you know, I feel like – that’s something that a coach that I’m working with Stephanie Chin, who’s helping me from, like an inclusion perspective. I feel like I constantly am, she’s reminding me like, yeah, you’re gonna miss up, but then we’re going to figure it out. And then we’re going to – and we’re all figuring it out. And that’s such a, I don’t, you know, I mean, I have, I have my perspectives of like, you know, what that’s born out of, right? Like the dominant culture of perfectionism and we don’t show emotions, and, and all of that. But, and I imagine that you experience the people, leaders who are just, like, relieved to be like, oh, I can just, I don’t have to be on, I don’t have to do this. What, you know, when we talk about what, what it looks like, when it’s done well, or what it looks like, when it’s productive, maybe is another way we can think about it. You know, I’m curious if you have any stories or examples, because, again, going back to that idea that – I think a lot of people don’t know what it can look like. Just like they don’t know what it can look like to have a high trusting relationship with somebody like, well, what does it look like to be candid and kind like, I’ve never experienced that I only know aggression, or I only know avoidance. So I’m curious. You know, and if you need a minute to sort of think about that, I would love to hear, you know, what, what does it look like in practice, when someone’s really stepping into that conscious leadership?

Kristen Harcourt
Yeah, absolutely. It makes me excited when I get to share the stories. So a couple of different, two or three different things show up for me in terms of highlighting this in action. So I can think of some leaders. So to talk first, when you’re talking about the avoidance piece, right, that there are leaders who are resistant to giving constructive feedback and feel like, I don’t know how this is going to be perceived if I give this constructive feedback, they might like it. And so they’re avoiding a lot of important conversations, important dialogues. And then when they actually do have the conversation, so I’m thinking of one recently where the leader wasn’t, – so the VP and then a director who was working for them, there were times where they just were not showing up how they needed to be showing up in meetings, and they were not doing the prep work ahead of time. And this leader was realizing and part of it, they were enabling, you know, see the slides before the presentation, they’re taking it and getting it all ready for when it’s going to be going in front of the, you know, senior leader team and realizing you know what, so two things and it was great, because it’s growth on both sides. That VP recognized, I’m not helping this person learn and grow, if every time there’s something where they’re not doing it properly, I’m just taking over and doing it for them. How are they going to learn the skills, and guess what? It is going to be messy, they’re not going to present as well at the beginning, they’re not going to necessarily tell the story in the slides as well as they can. But I reminded her she’s done it, she’s been doing that for 20 years, there’s a reason why she can do that better. And that person needs to learn those skills. So it was beautiful, because the conscious leadership is around her going back to that person and saying, hey, first of all, I want to acknowledge that I was taking on things that I shouldn’t have been taking on. That is my role, I take responsibility for that. Secondly, I’m not giving you constructive feedback that I need to be giving you in terms of a growth edge and a gap that’s currently showing up in your leadership. And then they had a really good conversation around what that that gap looks like and specific action items they can take around that.

And the thing I love about this story is, this happened around 18 months ago, and this leader has now is moving into another area of the organization. And we’ve been working together for three years, actually going into four years. And all of her – she created a really strong, high performing team. And her goal when we started coaching was, I want to show up as a more authentic leader. Which is to me again, connected to the conscious leadership and the feedback from all of her leaders were, I am so sad to see you go. I love like, you’re amazing and I’m glad you’re you know, going and growing and all of that kind of stuff. But you’re the best leader I’ve ever had. I’ve never learned so much. I’ve never grown so much. I am so grateful that I got to learn from you. And so to me, I mean, that’s it in action, right? It’s like there’s a level of humility again, right? Because it’s saying, I take responsibility, there’s things that I wasn’t doing right.

And the other thing I want to make sure I don’t miss out on that I think is a huge part of conscious leadership as well, is the repair. Sometimes you’re not going to do it right and you get to go back afterwards and say, “You know what, I want to let you know, I didn’t show up at the best the way I would have liked to show up in that conversation. And I apologize for that. And I’m going to, I’m going to do better.” And asking questions to all of your team members. Like as a conscious leader, it’s this ever evolving growth, it’s never done. And it’s always asking people like, “How can I best support you? What do you need more of, what do you need less of? When am I not doing as well?” And the whole thing is, if you’ve never done that, as a leader, the first time you do that, probably people aren’t going to be honest and give you the what they really want to say.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right.

Kristen Harcourt
It has to be ongoing and consistent. Maybe the second time, or the third time or the fourth time, they may say, oh, they really mean this, like they actually want to hear what I have to say. To me that’s around building that strong level of trust, right? There’s just this level of, we’re figuring this out. We’re working together. And, and I’m going to, I’m going to share and then the other thing that happens with this, Sarah, is the more they’re sharing vulnerability and admitting when they don’t have it all figured out. Now their team members are more likely to share openly in the same way.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, you – I love that you pointed out and you were like, let me be really clear about this, this part and this practice of repairing because right before you said that I was starting to make a note to just like really clarify what you said from the standpoint of – I’m always looking for moments in these conversations to name the tool or to name the practice of what I hear that make that react that reflection visible. Because you know, sometimes we may leave a conversation and go, oh, totally messed that up. And that didn’t go how I want or I was completely jumping all over them or whatever the case is, and what I love about that story that you shared. And and we know that that is like a place to repair a relationship or an erosion is taking that ownership, but there’s so much power in making your reflection visible to folks. And you know, whether that is, you know, we’re talking in terms of leadership and team, but think of that as spouse, you know, spouses or children relationship or sibling relationship or friend relationships, whatever the, you know, relationship is, is to make that reflection visible and to own it. And, and to realize that, that that’s one of the most powerful ways to repair a relationship. Because if you if you’ve reflected on maybe a regrettable moment, but I don’t know, then that doesn’t do anything to resolve how I feel about it, and how I’m leaving the situation. So I really appreciate you naming that. And I think that’s just such a great practice for all of us to think about is how do we make our reflections visible to folks, and it’s, it’s vulner – I mean, it, it can be, – for some folks, it can be really scary to say, “Hey, I realized that I was doing X, Y, and Z, and I realized that wasn’t serving you and supporting you.” And no doubt you have examples of, you know, just like the one you shared, where the impact that that has on the team and the trust and the safety. Like that’s how you build. That’s how you build trust. Like that’s one of the ways you build trust. So I was just reflecting on that. Curious and curious what else comes up for you?

Kristen Harcourt
Yeah, I mean, I can think about even with that repair times where I’ve done it with my daughter, like, I realized afterwards, like, oh, I I didn’t show up, like, I would have liked to go back and say, “Hey, I recognize it was the end of my workday, you walked into my office, I was in the middle of doing something, my head was somewhere else. And I wasn’t very present for you. And I can tell that there’s something you want to have a dialogue around, is this a better time to connect.” And then it’s it’s beautiful repair, because I’m trying to model for her like presence and how important that is, but also give myself permission that I can’t always be present if I’m doing something else. And so being able to even acknowledge that and I find this one shows up so often in the workplace as well. Like, if you can’t be present for that person and that dialogue, it doesn’t mean that you have to always drop everything and is you know what I can, I can see that this really matters to you. And I want to give you my full attention. And I just recognize I can’t do that right now. Can we meet in a half an hour? Can we meet first thing tomorrow morning? I think that that can go so far for again, that that vulnerability and communicating if there’s something that you’re trying to, to model and if you’re not able to do it in that moment, that’s okay. Like, I just want to acknowledge like in our workplaces, we are being pulled in so many different directions, so many demands, quite often under resourced. And you can’t be all things to all people at all times.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, in the, you know, something that I’ve learned is, you know, taking that extra step also to just check in with that person to go, is it, like, do we have like, not not sort of, uh, do we have to, in a shutting down way, but I want to make sure like, is this something that we need to speak about now? Or are you okay, if we wait just a little bit, so that I can be really present with you? Yeah, I mean, just, it’s, it’s so –

Kristen Harcourt
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
The, it’s not easy. I mean, you know, I say this as somebody who is practicing this in my own world, and my own relationships and my own way of showing up for folks. But the impact is so significant, again, because we’re so used to, or many of us, I should say, are so used to being in these surface level relationships. They’re very transactional, they’re not transformational. You know, and I think that is you’re sharing some of these examples and these stories, you know, for people who are thinking about, how do I create a psychologically safe team? How do I, you know, how do I create that culture of trust, because it isn’t necessarily something that’s just assumed or that people just have and they’re giving you, but it happens in all of these little moments that we just sort of ignore because we’re just so distracted, or we’re so focused on the business, right, that we forget about the people side of things.

Kristen Harcourt
Yes, yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What, you know, for for people who are listening, and we know our listeners are, you know, just like all of us, we’re on this journey. You know, what are some places for people who are hearing this and going, oh, this is something, I think this is something I need, or I want, even the act of you know, people who are in positions of power and authority, right? Those formal leaders who are maybe hearing this going, hmm, I think I want to be much more intentional. What. what might be some places for them to start from a reflection or questions they can be asking themselves?

Kristen Harcourt
Yeah, I think it’s exactly like you said, like, just even I can’t tell you how many times when I do training, or I’m doing keynotes and I asked people, “Hey, how many people create daily or weekly or monthly time for self reflection?” Nope. Nope, don’t have time for that. It’s too busy. I don’t. It was so funny. I remember even I was in a, I was doing a presentation for a bunch of New Yorkers. And we were trying to talk through, they were negotiating with me, because we were trying to as a room agree to a commitment of 30 minutes a week at the end of the week, and then they were trying to negotiate it down to 15 minutes. (laughs) Like, do you see the problem with what’s happening? You’re trying to negotiate the time away from this? What do you notice here? And so I think as a first step, if you could even say, I’m going to carve out 20 minutes a week, to be able to ask yourself, you know that – and I like to be able to when you’re going to try to build a habit, build a habit in a realistic place in your week that it’s going to happen. Is it towards the end of your day on Friday afternoon? Is it first thing Saturday morning? Is it Sunday morning, or towards the end of your day Sunday? Building in that 20 minutes to be able to reflect on, you know, what did I notice on the week, the week that just went by, what went well? Where did I notice I struggled? What are other insights that showed up for me? How do I want to be able to pull that forward as I go into my next week? And then even asking, like, if I’m really thinking about intentions, and how I want to show up as a leader, I talk a lot about you’re a human being, not a human doing. So who you’re being as a leader. Who do I want to be this week ahead? And if you start to reflect on what happened the week ahead, so let’s just say you noticed, yeah, you know what, there was quite a few conversations where I noticed I was very distracted. So I’m also going to be super conscious as I go into this week around like, what does it look like to really work on active listening and be present for my conversations? Now you have something, this is you, you’re building the muscle of conscious leadership. I really encourage people less is more, don’t try to be working on five things at once. Just say if I were to really drill down and focus on one thing, and you might identify this one thing I’m going to work on for the next week or for the next month, and then as you build that skill, then you might want to move into something else. And that’s where you know, getting feedback from others around what’s going well, what’s not going as well, they can give you some really constructive ideas on on what to work on. But Sarah, from my experience, a lot, a lot, a lot of leaders, if they could just start with that and create a practice of self reflection every week, it can be a game changer for them.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Completely. I completely agree. And, and unfortunately, it’s something that’s not valued in our culture from a Western perspective, you know. And, I mean, I feel like that’s part of the, that’s part of the role we play as coaches for leaders is that it’s this dedicated time for them to just slow down and reflect. You know, I feel like half of what we’re offering or some part of what we’re offering is just the structure, –

Kristen Harcourt
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And the time for them to say – and I appreciated, just the simplicity too of the question, just what did I notice? And, and what was coming up for me is, you know, people who often, I don’t want to generalize, so I’ll just speak like often, the people who we see who are in the formal leadership positions, often are really like high achieving people. They have been rewarded for accomplishing a lot in a short amount of time, right? They’ve been rewarded for having the answers. And we we work in a culture that is so concrete sometimes, right? It’s that that either or thinking that realizing that this this is a constant practice. And you know, the word that was coming up for me as you were talking about, you know, this week, what did I noticed? Well, I noticed that I wasn’t as present or I noticed, I wasn’t listening. Okay, so next week, I’m going to do this. And the word that was coming up for me was just this like, it’s just this constant calibrating and I think that’s sometimes what can get in folks way – and when I say this, this is because I’ve experienced this myself. Is this desire to like, I want to get it. I want to get it right. And I want to be good at it and I want to move on. Instead of realizing that no, it’s literally a practice, it is this ongoing tuning, you know, that we have to do to evaluate, and then I just wanted to echo that idea of less is more. Again, I think in this high achievement, we need to have tons of objectives. We have to – well, how many of you know – like, I’ve got five development goals. I’m going you should have like a half of one. I want you to like, like, take that and cut it in half and then cut it in half. (laughs) And then let’s just get really good at that. Because that can become the domino for everything else. Yeah, I, and, and it seems so, gosh, it seems so – 20 minutes isn’t that much. And yet, it can feel so significant when that isn’t what we value. But just because the external culture might value that, how do you carve that out for yourself? Yeah, I love that practice.

Kristen Harcourt
Yeah, I think two things that quickly came up for me as you were talking there, Sarah, I remember exactly what your – I agree it completely with the – when they’re doing that coaching session, that’s them carving up the space. And I remember him saying, I don’t feel like I’m doing enough after sessions, I don’t feel. And then he realized, and it was a very transformative and emotional moment when he realized, oh, this is it, like this hour, like the fact that I’ve committed and given myself this hour every week, and what’s happening here in this container. That’s it. That’s it. It’s not like more, more, more. Goals, achieve, achieve. He’s like, and it was one of those things where you can’t, it wasn’t an intellectualize, it wasn’t embodied. Like he just got it in that moment.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That I mean, that’s the – I feel like that’s a phrase we’re saying more and more lately is, “Yeah, this is the work.” Right? Whether that’s in how do we show up differently for people and how we communicate. And like, oh, well, we need to, we can’t take time for this training, because we have to make – I’m like, this is that, this is the work of leadership.

Kristen Harcourt
Yes, yes, yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
This, this is, this is it, you know, and it’s not – yeah, it’s not, it’s not maybe what we’ve been led to believe, but this is what’s going to move you, you know, forward. What else, you know, I’m just taking a look at our time and being thoughtful of where we are, you know, what else is important for us to explore when it comes to this idea in the practice of conscious leadership?

Kristen Harcourt
You know, I think that the first of all, I want to emphasize again, that this is a work in progress. And this is progress, not perfection, this is something that it’s, you’re consistently evolving. And it’s not like you get to this place, I always use the example of the onion, it’s one layer and another layer and another layer. And the layers continue until the day you leave this earth. And that is the journey. And it’s so interesting, like you’ll recognize, and again, I’ll use myself as an example, I’ll figure out one pattern like, oh, I get this pattern. It’s been here forever. And I finally broke through this pattern. And then all of a sudden, it’s like, oh, this pattern now. Oh, oh, very – I wasn’t ready, I wasn’t ready for that pattern, I had to get through this pattern. And then another one. And I never think of it as any more as like, it’s failure because it’s another one. Now it’s kind of like, it comes from a great. It’s exciting. It’s like something else that I get to learn about myself. So I really want to emphasize Sarah, for everybody listening that this is, this is something that, it’s about being able to give yourself permission to just have fun with it and be playful and, and not make this again into the high achievers. It’s like something else. I remember talking to a leader, and we’re talking about play, and she said, “So I just I still need to understand like, what’s the goal? Like, what’s the end goal here with this play?” Right. There’s no end goal here. It’s just about giving yourself permission to play and have fun and enjoy. And, and so a lot of leaders, like you said, they’ve gotten to where they’ve gotten to, because they are very goal oriented, achievement oriented, ambitious, driven individuals. It’s like, that’s one part of who you are. And it’s amazing. And congratulations, it’s gotten you to where you are. And it’s a strength. And that beautiful strength can also have some blind spots to come along with it. And the invitation I’m giving you here today around this conscious leadership. It’s an invitation to connect more deeply with yourself. And in turn, by connecting more deeply with yourself, you’re now connecting more deeply with the humans around you. And ultimately, this is going to create more fulfillment because this is what we’re put on this earth to do. And that’s, that’s the gift and the invitation here for anybody listening. Like this is this is an opportunity for you to become more whole and more of who you always were, but you’ve just lost touch with some of these parts of yourself.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whether, whether it was like lessons you learned along the way or things that got sort of beat out of you or whatever the case is, is just how do you show up as your – I love that, that just your whole self. And I, I know the people in my life who have been on that journey, it makes it easier for me to step into my whole self too and who doesn’t want to, you know, be spending time day in and day out with people that are just trying, right, like, just like we’re trying to move forward, we’re trying to peel back those onions. We realize we’re on a journey. And you know, we spend so much time at work and how much better is it to be, be in an environment of learning and curiosity and humility, you know, humiliate, not humiliation, humility, and we don’t want to be in a culture of humiliation, –

Kristen Harcourt
No. (chuckles)

Sarah Noll Wilson
Humility, you know, as opposed to one where it’s like, nope, you got to figure it out. Right? It’s perfectionism. It’s high sense of urgency all the time, all of that. Well, I love everything you do. And before we give a chance for you to share how people can connect with you, I, you know, we always ask the final question of, what’s a conversation that you’ve had with yourself or with someone else that was transformative?

Kristen Harcourt
I absolutely adore this question. And I gave some thought around this question. And, you know, what really comes up for me is a conversation I had when I was 18 years old, just graduated from high school going into university. And there was this girl that we had in my friend group that I had been with all through high school for five years, and she was really pretty toxic and negative. And I had a conversation with her. One day, I just woke up, and I said, we can’t, we can’t be friends anymore. I, I think that you have a lot of wonderful qualities and you know, opportunities for growth, whatever that may be. But I just recognize that I need to hold my boundaries. And I have to be conscious of the people I’m surrounding myself around with and I’m just realizing – and it was my gosh, Sarah. Like the most emotional conversation. She cried, I cried. And you know, said everything I had to say from a beautiful place, it felt very conscious. Like it really felt like I made her still feel seen and heard, but also held a boundary around what I am not willing to tolerate anymore. And she even gave feedback to other people later on that she said, it’s the bravest thing I’ve ever seen anybody do for her to have the guts to say that. And I think that conversation reminded me of my own personal power and what it looks like to have the courage to ask for and really stay aligned with what’s true to you. And self integrity is such a high high value of mine, I couldn’t have named it as an 18-year-old. But that’s what it looks like. It means having those conversations, even though they might be so hard, but they’re in alignment with your truth.

Sarah Noll Wilson
At 18! I mean, I’m sitting here going, it’s taken me until I’m in my you know, early 40s now to be able to like have those kinds of conversations. That’s such a – I mean, what a gift for you, and for her to be able to show up in that way. And to continue now all these years later, continuing your work.

Kristen Harcourt
Yeah, it was good learning.

Sarah Noll Wilson
All right, Kristen, I know that there’s people listening who are – yeah, no doubt. I know there’s people listening who are probably thinking, how can I work with her? I’m interested in learning more. So what’s the best place for people to connect with you?

Kristen Harcourt
Thank you, Sarah. And so my website is Kristen Harcourt dot com. So that’s the best place to learn more about me, the work that I do in the world and also I just love connecting with people. So please don’t hesitate to just reach out and say hi. I’m pretty active on the socials, mostly on Instagram and LinkedIn. So love, I love connecting with community and getting to know people.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Awesome. And we’ll be sure to tag all of those in our show notes so people can connect with you. Kristen, thank you so much for coming on our show today.

Kristen Harcourt
Thank you, Sarah. This conversation meant so much and you’re so great with all of your questions.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you. Our guest this week has been Kristen Harcourt. You know, it’s a phrase that I’ve heard before but it alway,s it’s always a valuable reminders, the whole we’re human beings, not human doings. And sometimes we can get so focused on activity and achievement and accomplishment that it’s you know, how do you want to be? What does that mean to just be? And what does that look like for you? And we want to hear from you. So let us know what resonated, what came up for you? What connections were you making? You can send us a message at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. Or you can find me on social media where my DMs are always open. And if you’d like to support the podcast, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. That helps us be able to get the word out and to bring on great guests like Kristen. And if you want to financially support the show. You can become a patron you can go to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where you’re financial support will support the team that makes the show possible.

Speaking of the team, let’s take a moment and give them a shout out. So to our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, our transcriptionist, Rebecca Reinert, and our marketing consultant, ksn marketing services, and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. Thank you. And just a big final thank you to Kristen Harcourt for coming on the show and helping us all be able to pause and be a little bit more conscious in our life and in our leadership. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. Thank you all so much for listening. Please be sure to rest, rehydrate and we’ll see you again next week.