Episode 055: A Conversation on Emotional Intelligence with Farah Harris

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Farah Harris as they discuss Farah’s new book, The Color of Emotional Intelligence: Elevating Our Self and Social Awareness to Address Inequities.

About our guest

Farah Harris is a psychotherapist, and the founder and CEO of WorkingWell Daily®, a company that approaches workplace belonging and well-being from a psycho-social and emotional intelligence lens. As a speaker and consultant, she has empowered individuals and Fortune 500 companies to develop healthy work environments where leaders and teams have grown in empathy, self-awareness, and sociocultural awareness.

Farah is also the author of The Color of Emotional Intelligence: Elevating Our Self and Social Awareness to Address Inequities (2023), a groundbreaking exploration of how cultural background and identity influence our emotional intelligence and shape our relationships with others.

Her work has been featured in media and podcast platforms such as Forbes, Fast Company, Business Insider, Harvard Business Review, Huffington Post, Essence, Good Morning America, Martha Stewart, Thrive Global, and Therapy for Black Girls.

Website | Twitter | LinkedIn | Facebook | Instagram (Farah Harris, LCPC) | Instagram (WorkingWell Daily)

Episode Transcript

Farah Harris
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I am your host Sarah Noll Wilson and I’m so excited to have my dear friend, good colleague, former guest, just an amazing person, amazing woman, amazing business owner, all I don’t know, all the all the descriptions Farah Harris is back with us, folks. But the reason we’re so excited is because Farah’s book just launched yesterday, so today we’re going to be talking about The Color of Emotional Intelligence, Elevating Our Self and Social Awareness to Address Inequities. So okay, for those of you who may remember, Farah was one of our earlier guests when we explored the topic of boundaries, but for those of you who Farah is new let me give you a little bit of her background before we bring her on because I know we’re both itching to to have this conversation happen. Farah Harris is a psychotherapist and the founder and CEO of Working Well Daily, it’s a company that approaches workplace belonging and wellbeing from a psychosocial and emotional intelligence lens. As a speaker and consultant, she has empowered individuals and Fortune 500 companies to develop healthy work environments where leaders and teams have grown in empathy, self awareness, and socio cultural awareness. Farah is also the author of The Color of Emotional Intelligence, Elevating Our Self and Social Awareness to Address Inequities. I have no doubt, we’re recording this about a week early, I have no doubt by the time this airs, we can like add in an edit of best selling author of right like that’s a manifesting that, that’s gonna happen, but it’s a groundbreaking exploration of how cultural background and identity influence our emotional intelligence and shape our relationship with others. Her work has been featured in media and podcast platforms such as Forbes Fast Company, Business Insider, Harvard Business Review, Huffington Post, Essence, Good Morning America, Martha Stewart, Thrive Global and Therapy for Black Girls. Farah Harris, welcome to the show!

Yes, ma’am. I am so happy to be here. Oh my gosh, I’m so excited. I wish we were in the same room. (laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
I know. I know. We’re – what else do you want people to know about you? That’s always our question after we bring people on.

Farah Harris
Oh, goodness, what else? I’m happy. I’m really really happy. I had a girlfriend of mine send me a voice note yesterday, because I was sharing something that actually you had told me. And I was like, oh, yeah, my friend Sarah said this, blah, blah, blah. And she goes, “You know, I’m so glad that you have a Sarah in your corner.” And then she said, but and I got nervous because I was like, oh, is this going to be like a jealous friend moment? Like, I know you have your friend Sarah. But, you know, but she was like, I’m so glad you have Sarah, but can we talk about the joy in your voice and it threw me off. And she said, “I love hearing how excited you are about this book because I know what you’ve gone through. And this time last year, there wasn’t a lot of joy.” And to all the listeners, this time last year, I literally was on a hiatus from writing because I was experiencing maternal burnout and book writing burnout. And so to be on the other side, it feels so good. It feels so good.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s been it’s been quite a journey. And I’ve been so fortunate to be a part of it. So what I want to do is spend just a little bit of time talking about what this process has been like. You know, writing a book can, is, I think it’s really demanding or it can be demanding, depending certainly was for me and I know other people who I’ve talked with, and almost like a spiritual journey, because what you have to think about, how you need to think about writing a book is so very different than maybe what we’re used to in writing a blog post or doing a presentation or a workshop. So, you know, talk to me about what the experience of writing the book was like for you. And I’m always curious to know, like, what surprised you?

Farah Harris
Yeah, that’s a really good question. It’s everything that you said. It’s definitely a challenge. I think back to I’m just remembering conversations I had with my mom, where recently she’s like, always knew you’d write a book and I was like, what? Really? Okay. And I’ve always enjoyed writing and when I was younger, I had thought, you know, as a middle school teacher, or a student or a high school student, I’ll write a book. And I felt hmm, can we really do that? Because we don’t have the attention span to write a whole book. I’ll write short stories. (laughter) And to come here and go, what can I speak on at length? This is interesting to me and so that was a challenge to really just to focus and be consistent in pushing through, getting from beginning to end. And I have three little ones. And I could say that there’s a lot of parallels between birthing a human and birthing a book baby. Labor and delivery is real, you all.

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)

Farah Harris
You know, the excitement, the man, when are we going to, you know, get it out of here? (laughs) I’m ready to hold it in my hand and, and all of the things and I’m so grateful that you’ve been on this journey with me because I think it helped normalize moments when I just didn’t want to anymore.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Farah Harris
It also encouraged me to – and I shared this in a think in a newsletter and in a LinkedIn post, about how I ended up getting a late diagnosis of ADHD because of conversations you and I have had, and now recognizing how ADHD plays a role, or played a significant role in the book writing process of moments of hyper focus. And it’s like, yes, all the writing is getting done. And then the moment you know, which got ADHD paralysis, just being so overwhelmed, and you’re just like, I know, I need to get this chapter done. I just can’t do it. It’s just not happening. The time blindness, it only takes this long to finish this part. (laughter) Let’s multiply that by three.

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) And then and then take it times 10.

Farah Harris
And there you go. So it’s been interesting. And I said this to to those who have joined my pre-launch like email list where I’m like, sharing the behind the scenes details is that I took longer to write this book, because I didn’t want to deliver the book burnt, like I didn’t want to be birthed out of burnout. I wanted to practice my own EQ while writing about EQ, you know about our emotional intelligence. And so I had to ask myself often, how do I feel? And what do I need? And there are moments how I felt was not so good. I didn’t have joy in writing it. It wasn’t fun. It wasn’t interesting. I was getting angry with it. And you know, as a therapist, I have other therapist friends. And they would ask me, like, how are you really, because when you talk about the book, there’s this, like distance, you know, this disconnect. You would say The Book, The Book is, you know, needing to be done. And you’re not talking about it, like it’s your book. And you’re not saying mine, and I was like, oh, this is really interesting. I think I need a break. And so I just gave myself permission to give myself breaks, gave myself permission to trust the process, gave myself permission for it to be birthed and delivered at its divine time. And gave myself grace, because I was like, it’s going to get done. Even though trust me, there are many times I’m like, the world doesn’t need this book. I’m good. We don’t need it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) You know, but then rest of us are in your ear going, I can’t wait till I can give your book to people.

Farah Harris
Right. Oh, I’m letting people down. So I say it’s not, this wasn’t necessarily a labor of love. It was definitely an act of obedience. I felt like I had to be obedient to the request. Another woman who was a potential client of mine, we were having to stay you know, before the actual meeting starts on Zoom, you know, we’re having some chitchat. And I was telling her about the book writing process and how it was hard. And she was like, what the books already written. And her just saying that was the, like, extra fuel that I needed, I was like, yes, it was already written before time, I just need to be the catalyst to manifest it and, and deliver it to the world, you know, in the now and that also allowed me to give myself grace was like, when it’s supposed to be it’s supposed to be.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. And it’s, you know, and I, there’s so much I love about that. And, you know, as people are listening, you can tell that, you know, Farah walks the talk. She’s constantly practicing her own emotional intelligence, and what does it look like to step into that, and I know that that was a really challenging time when you were like, I need to rest. And I think that there’s this, you know, fantasy of what it’s like to write a book, like, you sit down and you’re at the typewriter and you’re just like, I can’t talk to you right now I’m in the zone and, right? And you’re just like, going away and pages are flying or whatever the case is, and sometimes it’s that and I remember my publisher saying, at some point, you will hate your book. You just need to know that that’s part of the process. You need to know that that is inevitable like that will happen. So I don’t want you to be surprised by that. And and there’s something really beautiful about trusting that it will come when it needs to come. Right.

And so let’s – okay, so let’s dig into the book because I want to spend most of our time talking about this. For people who don’t know, because you wouldn’t, you’re not a part of our conversations. When Farah I first started to connect and, and talk about the work we’re doing, you know, one of the things I had shared with her is I became sort of disillusioned with this idea of emotional intelligence. Even though the irony of it was it’s the very thing we teach people, we just don’t couch it under that phrase, or we didn’t anyway, and partly because I, my experience is that it had become this really like buzz term in corporate America, it was very much used for, we’re going to do this so that we can get more productivity. We’re going to do this so that we can accomplish more. And, and it just always felt so shallow and surface level to me, even though I’m a firm believer in and advocate for and work for myself and with our clients on how do we increase our emotional intel? Like, how do we increase our self awareness? How do we regulate our emotions? How do we pay attention to people? And I will say, I feel like your book on emotional and I’ve told you this, but your book on emotional intelligence, one is, it’s very different than other books on emotional intelligence. And I think it’s the book that we need. Because, what, how you look at emotional intelligence, and just, you know, for people, one, buy the book, just buy the book, go on Amazon, buy the book. I’m gonna keep pitching it. But you do such a really lovely breakdown of how you organize your book and how you talk about emotional intelligence. And it isn’t just talking about it through the lens of how we can be more productive, but actually how we can better care for our fellow humans, how we can better fight for injustice, how we can really tackle inequities. And I think that’s such a powerful perspective. So, so let me start with this. What do you feel like people get wrong about EQ? You know, and but while you’re thinking of that, real quickly, I want to share a quote, I have a lot, I’ve just pages of quotes from your book. But one of the things that really resonated for me was early on in your book, you said, “Can we actively serve our clients well, when we try to make them fit into a box that was never designed for them?

Farah Harris
Yeah. I understand why you were off with the concept of EQ. Because to everything you said it was very surface level, very performance driven. It was a quote unquote, soft skill for the workplace. And when I discovered it, the concept of emotional intelligence, I was thinking, wait a minute, what are we doing here, this is, this is a life skill. This is a strength skill that we all need. Because it helps us to understand not just ourselves, but everyone around us, or at least attempt to try to understand those that are around us. And what we fail to do is one, be self aware. You know, there’s many of us who think that we are self aware, and I forget what the statistic is, but it’s probably more like 15% of people who think that they’re self aware are actually self aware. And because of that, we fail to show up well when we’re with others, because we’re not one, recognizing how we’re acting, feeling, thinking behaving, then we’re not also considering how we’re landing on other people. And so when we think about emotional intelligence, it’s also been shared, educated, written about primarily from, you know, white males.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Um-hum.

Farah Harris
And not to say that there aren’t other great thought leaders who are in the space that talk about it. But most of these concepts in the quote that you pulled from the book, I was speaking as a psychotherapist, most of the theories that we use for our clients were created by white men. And that’s not a diss. It’s just understanding that that’s a perspective that we’ve used to use a broad brush for everyone else. And we have to be careful to take a moment and say, well, does this really fit for this person over here? Does this really work for this person over here? And that’s that social awareness piece. Am I using my own lens, my own presuppositions as a blanket for determining how somebody shows up? You know, what’s a good theory to use for, you know, this client? You know, and we can even see that in the medical field, right? You know, strokes and hypertension look different for white men than they do for white women. What does diabetes look like for black, the black community versus the Asian community, like, just taking a moment to go? Yes, we are all equal in our innate humanity and worth. But we’re not necessarily equal in terms of our needs, and how we show up just you know, due to cultural differences, socio economic differences, all of those things. So I was like, we really aren’t using this skill in a way that can really help us show up better in the world. And show up better for ourselves in our own micro world, like, within our families, you know, to be a good partner, a good parent, a good friend, we need our EQ.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, it’s the, you know, one of the things that, that I really appreciated and was such a valuable lesson for me, and why I think one of the many reasons why I think this is honestly just a book everyone should read, but especially those who are in positions of power and authority, is you organize it in three key parts. So the first part is just let’s just talk about emotional intelligence. And let’s talk about it, maybe in ways you aren’t used to thinking about it. And then the second session, or the second part, excuse me, is really focused on how do you know people of color use, use emotional intelligence differently? How, what does it look like when you’re using it from a place of survival, versus thriving? And then your third section is really for, you know, those people who are trying to be, wanting to be, thinking about, how do I be a better ally? How do I play a different role? The role that emotional intelligence plays in that, and I think that it’s that the nuance, I really appreciate the nuance and how you apply it, but also, in elevating the sense of urgency of, there’s so much harm happening in the, not just the workplace, but the world. And, you know, to go back to use your language, of we failed to show up well. I really, I really appreciate and love that language you use. And so for purposes of our time, if we have time, I want to come back to Walking The Dog. But I don’t actually want to spend, I want to jump into part two, and spend a fair amount of time there if that’s good with you.

Farah Harris
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
But for people, so here’s your little teaser, there’s a really great practice, a metaphor called Walking The Dog and go buy the book, so you can learn all about it. But that’s a really powerful practice. But okay, let’s, let’s actually just talk a little bit about emotional intelligence. And you know, one of the things that you spent a lot of time talking about in that first section is you, you pose three practices, assess, – become aware, assess, and then take action. And why do you think it’s so important for us to be able to name those emotions first, even that awareness, right? And why is it so pervasive that we aren’t? (chuckles) We don’t, or we don’t even have those skills? Like you can’t be, you can’t take different action if you don’t know how the hell you’re showing up now? So let’s start there.

Farah Harris
Yes, yes. And I guess this was also something that I struggled to find consistent information on when, you know, reading about emotional intelligence. And so there’s a whole chapter called Emotional Narratives. And it’s our story of how did we even learn about feelings? What feelings were okay? What feelings are not okay? What feelings are we comfortable experiencing and expressing? And what feelings are we comfortable having others express in front of us? And so, being able to name the emotion is so key, because that’s how you know why you’re doing what you’re doing. Right. So you go, Okay, I’m happy. As I was sharing with you earlier, like the joy my friend gave me that awareness, right. And so I say to that, if you want to increase your emotional intelligence, specifically, self awareness, you need feedback. You need that mirror from someone to say, “Hey, this is how you’re showing up.” So when she said, yeah, you have this joy. Now I’m paying attention to go, oh, yes, this is how it’s showing up in my body. And sometimes our body can let us know how we’re feeling before we can even name it. We’ve grown up in different home environments. And when we’re talking about EQ, I just find it fascinating that we’re telling people hey, here’s the skill set to use and now but not taking time to understand all of the past –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.

Farah Harris
That makes people show up the way that they show up, you know? So as a leader, how are you showing up more than likely is based off of your own family of origin experience or other social system, you know, in your upbringing. If you weren’t allowed to share your thoughts and express your emotions, as a child, how do you think that plays out now, if your emotions were dismissed, if they were ignored? I share too, like if you’ve experienced any type of like trauma, sexual trauma where your boundaries are violated, and your voice and your no is completely ignored, then you may have more experiences of ignoring even your own feelings and invalidating your own emotions. Because you’re not sure if what you’re thinking and what you’re feeling is valid or real, because so many other people dismissed it. So really taking time to learn how did I even learn about feelings? Am I in tune with how they even show up? You know, some people go, Oh, man, I didn’t realize I was anxious until I felt that there was a sore inside my mouth because I was eating the inner core of my cheek. And we’re like, yeah, because that’s your body’s response to, quote unquote, that emotion. And leaders need to understand that. Like, hey, when someone gives me feedback, or when I see, you know, Mary come in with a certain facial expression, what is my triggered reaction to that. Is it reminded me of something? So that goes to the the assessment piece, right? Why am I feeling what – Why am I feeling what I’m feeling? Is it reminding me of another time where I was ignored? Did I just get, you know, a wonderful bouquet of flowers? Did someone surprised me with a gift? Have I not had my Snickers, so I’m a little hangry cause I’m hungry, that’s me. My kids know not to bothering with a whole bunch of stuff first thing in the morning because Mommy needs to eat. But being able to assess why you have these feelings now allows you to address and put action, hopefully, a controlled, calm, constructive response to it. Right. So when we’re practicing low EQ, we’re very reactive.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Farah Harris
But when we’re practicing high EQ, we’re actually having a response that’s calculated and measured. And, and from a controlled place. Because we’ve processed our feelings. We’ve known what they are, we understand why they’re here. And we can now better articulate it. So you know, even like I said, with my kids, I’ve said enough times Mommy needs a little quiet, and something to eat. So if I have an attitude, and therefore showing low EQ, being impatient, maybe short, they go, Oh, wait, mommy hasn’t eaten yet. Sorry, Mommy. (laughter) And they leave. And you know, they give me my time. But because I’ve articulated well, which is part of effective communication, which is another competency of EQ, I can really command that narrative when you’re engaging with me, because I know why I’m feeling and I’m telling you why I’m feeling the way that I’m feeling.

Sarah Noll Wilson
There’s so much to unpack in that I mean, just even teasing out that last part of when, when we can be – I mean, when we just have that deeper level of awareness, right, I’m laughing a little bit because I’m thinking about our household. And I know Nick listening is probably – I wake up, and, and I’m awake. And I’m ready to tackle ethical dilemmas, and I am ready to talk about major. And I’ll roll over in bed and Nick will be like just, not yet (laughs) whereas like I you know, and so we’ve both had to, we’ve had, we’ve had to build that muscle of both being aware, assessing it, and then being able to communicate it and in what I would add to is and be able to receive it when somebody says, Hey, this is actually what I need. Because there is so much effort and work, you know, for those of us who maybe weren’t raised for boundaries, weren’t raised for how to build our self awareness and to be able to set those and then the flip side is being okay and receiving that and not getting prickly or defensive and just realizing like, Oh, you just you your warmup time in the morning – like, I can come into your office at 10 and be like, let’s talk about life’s big problems. And he’ll be like, alright, I’m ready now. (laughter)

Farah Harris
Give me some time.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Farah Harris
Let me grow into it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. To echo that point of, you know, why why this is such a necessary practice and then that step of communicating is how much unnecessary pain or suffering or resentment or frustration has happened because we aren’t communicating it, because we aren’t getting curious about the other person. You – one of the concepts that I’ve definitely learned from you over the years of our conversations is that idea of family of origin. And you spoke to this, but I want to, I want to share a quote from your book, because I think this is such an important thing. I think as we get older as we become maybe like, maybe we’ve had some level of success, we don’t realize how much of, what do I want to say like how much our entire existence is shaping how we think and how we feel and what we – where we feel shame, or don’t or, you know, I’m reading I just read a book, it was all about – it was actually all about women’s sexuality called Come As You Are, it’s Emily, I’m going to mess up her last name, but one of the concepts that she shares is this idea of you’re born, you’re born into this garden, and this garden has been planted for you, by your culture by your family. And you don’t even get to start tending the garden until you’re an adult. Right. And, and by then there’s a lot that’s been put in, that’s probably good to your garden, but there’s a lot that’s put in, that’s not and so, so this idea of reflecting and without judgment, like not blaming parents or family members, right, like we can hold people accountable, and not necessarily be judgmental. But so and I just love this quote of yours. We respond and react to situations from a deeper place than we initially realize. We aren’t simply responding to the words sent to us by co-workers, or actions witnessed by our friends, but from the long term imprints of what happened to us in our younger years. And I just –

Farah Harris
It’s so weird hearing you read that.

Sarah Noll Wilson
First, damn, that’s like, good – to you to hear me? – Well, it’s because you’re smart and you say, really smart stuff, Farah. And it’s worth repeating and quoting.

Farah Harris
(laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
We don’t even realize, like you said that, oh, the reason that I get so triggered by this person, is because of something that happened to me when I was five, and I might not even be aware of it. Right?

Farah Harris
And I think we’re uncomfortable doing that connection, right? Especially if you’re not actively in therapy. (chuckles) So –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right.

Farah Harris
In therapy, you already know, like, hey, I’m gonna do some work. All right, therapists do what you need to do help me, you know, get to the other side. But if you’re not doing the work, and you and I have had many conversations about this, about how workplaces in particular, say, there’s no space for emotions, we need to keep emotions out or whatever. And it’s like, no, you just don’t you want a certain type of emotion. You want, quote, unquote, happy employees. But if someone’s giving feedback that you don’t necessarily care for, they’re showing up with a certain attitude. And as you said earlier, and are not being curious as to why this employee is coming with this attitude. You don’t want that. So it’s like, we want these emotions, but not those emotions. And it’s because of that history that I was talking about, that emotional narrative coming from our family of origin, whether we were in the foster care system, whether we were raised by our biological parents, by foster parents, guardians, whatever. We’ve been watching how other people react to how we show up and how they react to others. And we have to go, oh, I’ve seen how Sarah communicates with Nick, when he’s angry, and I don’t want that. So therefore, I’m not going to do anything to make anyone angry, because I’ve seen what can be, you know, what could happen between two people, and that doesn’t make me safe. That doesn’t make me feel comfortable. It makes me anxious. And now you’re very passive. You know, and so the more we can understand how we saw our mom deal with things, our dad deal with things, the adults in our life deal with things as we are children, helps us to understand, okay, this is why I sweep things under the rug.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Farah Harris
Or this is why I respond with sarcasm or respond violently and aggressively. And I’m just asking people to give themselves permission to see their whole story, not to judge it, but to understand. I love how you said that, you know, you can hold people accountable and you can hold yourself accountable without the judgment. And it’s not an excuse for the poor behavior of the adults happened in your life, but it is a reason why they’re the things that they did that impacted you in the way that they’ve impacted you And I just feel like we just we’re scared because there’s that other emotional intelligence competency of self regulation. It’s like I have this strong feeling, but I don’t know how to regulate it, I don’t know how to process it, I don’t know how to manage it. And the way that I’ve learned how to quote unquote, regulate it is through drinking, or through having a lot of sex or binge eating, or, you know, shutting down and isolating. So we find ways to regulate, they’re just not always healthy ways to regulate. And you know, so we can practice low EQ, and I can pinpoint every single competency on, you know, how we are having low awareness. How we’re having low or unhealthy regulation, and how we’re not showing up for others, and empathizing and how we’re ineffective in our communication. And then we can flip it, and practice the high EQ ongoing, okay, now I understand through feedback, you know, how I’m feeling. I’ve recognized I need to take a breath, or 15 breaths (laughs) and go for a walk or, you know, drink some water or talk to Sarah and process, you know, before I have the, you know, a hard conversation with someone else. We, we have to first know why this feeling bothers us so. We have to understand what led us to today, and having us respond the way that we are responding today. And if we don’t, we’re just going to continue to lack self awareness. We’re just going to continue to show up and say this very annoying line that we’ve all heard someone say, “Well, I’ve always been this way. Well, you know, I’m a hothead.” So like, I don’t know why this is surprising you it’s like, well, if you’ve known this, like, why are we not doing better? Like, how is this working out for you?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, that is that is something you say so beautifully in the book is like you have a an obligation or a sense of I mean, there’s a I don’t know that you use the word obligation, but that’s how I remember it is, well, when you know, you have the responsibility to do better. Yeah.

Farah Harris
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And I think that, gosh, that point you just said about how we (laughs) we find ways to regulate, there’s always ways to regulate, it’s just may not be the most productive or helpful.

Farah Harris
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And one of the things that, you know, I’ve learned on my journey, you know, whether it’s through mental health challenges, whether it’s through emotional challenges, whether it’s through trying to figure out what did I learn about myself, or beliefs about the world? And how do I unlearn or what do I want to hold on to, but also then, combined with the work we do with people is there are things that we do that we aren’t even aware of, like, it’s like we’re just disassociated or something like, oh, no, no, no, I’m really good at feedback. But because I can’t remember, every other time I’ve been given feedback, and I get really defensive, or whatever the case is, and so that that this is, it is an ongoing practice. Okay, so we talked, you know, in talking about family origin, I feel like this is a really beautiful transition into context, and how does that change how we show up or how some people show up with emotional intelligence. So part two of your book is really focused on exploring the ways, for black people in particular, and other systemically oppressed people use EQ differently, and a phrase that you use, and I think I highlighted it every single time you said it was it is hard to be the advocate and the abused. And then you go on to say, you know, for black individuals, the P in PTSD stands for past, present, and persistent. That there’s this new, like, pervasive nature of there’s – Yeah, like, it makes me really emotional even just like reading this out loud is – there’s nuance of learning how to heal yourself while you’re consistently being harmed. So talk to us and help us speak to you know, what, how do how do people who are systemically oppressed use EQ differently? And and also, I mean, I don’t want to say why it’s important for us to know because I feel like that’s just an obvious thing. But then I was like, but it’s not because we’re still in this damn mess. And so clearly, it’s not but so. So yeah, talk to us about that.

Farah Harris
I want to say to your listeners that – I want them to practice critical thinking obviously, from beginning to end of this book. And, and beyond obviously, don’t stop the critical thinking after you finish reading. But when a writer writes, I think you have to recognize that there, as I said earlier about there was nothing necessarily wrong from the white male perspective. But we have to understand that that’s exactly the perspective that it is. I can only speak from my area of competence. So much of the things that I share is from being a black woman, who’s also now late diagnosed neurodiverse. But when I speak, I am also speaking for those who have been pushed intentionally or unintentionally to the margins, which can include someone with a disability, someone who is of the minority gender of the group, not necessarily, you know, in general, because we’ve been talking about black people or other people of color, we are the global majority, right? But in certain rooms, and in certain spaces, we are not. And whenever you find yourself being part of the few, you will use your emotional intelligence differently for your protection, for your survival, because more than likely that room was not created for you. And, you know, I give an example because to your point, you’re like, why do we need to tell you that this is important, I wouldn’t have had to write a book, if we were able to get it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.

Farah Harris
But I had to give like an example of you know, I’m a right handed, you know, individual. And when I was growing up, we were in rooms that were created for right handed individuals. If you were left handed, and to my left handed readers, you understood what it was like to try to find a desk that was appropriate for you, to get scissors that worked for you, you know, pencil sharpeners were on the wall at the time, you know, so to get the pencil sharpener, all these little things. And if there wasn’t, you know, a desk already available, then you were already realizing this room wasn’t really made for me. I’m an afterthought. And so when I think of people with disabilities, and we look at architecture, and we look at interior design, and it’s like, oh, well, we have a ramp. Okay, but can they get in the door? You know, and when they get into the door, can they move about the space freely? Right? So when we’re using our EQ differently, for those of us who’s been historically and systemically marginalized, what I’m saying is that we are highly socially aware, because we are constantly reading the room. Women know, if they go into a room that’s predominantly male, they’re either going to play up their femininity, right, or, quote unquote, become more masculine, you know, deepen their voice a little bit to quote unquote command authority, because they do not feel safe. They are aware that they’re not viewed as equal. So therefore, to protect myself as best as I can, I will either quote unquote, butch up or play, you know, like I’m, you know, a damsel in distress, just so that I don’t frustrate or anger or cause any discomfort to the men in the room. Black people have been for hundreds of years, learning how to not cause discomfort to their white peers. Because historically, it was to their detriment, you know. So during the time of enslavement, they couldn’t speak up, they couldn’t look a white man directly in the eye. They couldn’t read a book, you know, and be educated. It was this demeaning way of being just, you know, it’s not even humbling. It’s just, it’s just demeaning and dismissive and dehumanizing. And it was taught generation after generation, like, hey, you can show up as your true self when you’re with with other people that look like you. But when you’re in these spaces, watch how they talk, watch how they move, watch how they do things, so that you can be safe. And the minute that they start showing that there, there’s some discomfort, play a little lower, you know, and shrink a little bit more, and I don’t want people to shrink anymore. I don’t want people to hide anymore. I don’t want people to mask anymore.

There’s a whole chapter on code switching by another name. And I really break down as a psychotherapist, that really what what black people and other non-black people of color are doing is masking. And it is so dysregulated to ourselves and it’s so unhealthy because in a way we are lowering our self awareness to appease others, and to make them more comfortable. So it’s like I can say, I’m hurt, because it’s a racial aggression. And I can say that I’m disappointed or I’m fearful, you know, for a sexual aggression. But I don’t want to make the situation worse. So let me ignore my emotion, and really pay attention and care for the other person’s emotion. And if we’re not careful to process those feelings, and acknowledge those feelings, soon and elsewhere, it will just end up causing so many adverse health effects. And we already, we already see it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s, you know, the, one of the things that I highlighted was what you wrote about how many black individuals show up as dysfunctional versions of themselves in order to have functional relationships in predominantly white spaces. And, you know, and you mentioned, code switching. And, you know, and I was part of a conversation, you know, just last year, and it probably on some level of naiveness, on my part. It was such a profoundly new concept for so many of the white people in this group. You know, these are people who would think of themselves as like, good people, allies, right. I’m a part of the diversity group, I’m right, I’m advocating for all of this. And, you know, when their black colleagues were talking about code switching, and when the students were talking about it, most of them are like, I’ve never, I’ve never even heard that, you know, which, which speaks to the opportunity we have for those of us who are in the dominant space, whether that’s if we’re white, whether if that’s because we’re abled, whether that’s because we’re heterosexual, whatever the privilege we have from a dominant perspective is just having that social awareness that that experience is different.

You know, something I wanted to mention, you talked about the impact of the health. It was a concept you talked about that, that was new to me, was that idea of weathering. And was sort of profoundly – I don’t even know, just – like reading about, it was like, god, that makes so much sense. And just so profoundly sad and, like frustrating and anger, you know, but you speak to a study in 2018 found that black adults between the ages of 48 to 60, had a biological age that was actually multiple years older than their chronicle age. Whereas their colleagues or their, their peers, white adults, were actually younger than their chronicle age, you know, so, so just speak a little bit to that idea of weathering. Because I think that that’s a, I mean, it’s a really important thing for us to be aware of. I mean, all of us, both from the standpoint of how do we create that sense of safety for ourselves? How do we make sure we’re healing, if we’re the ones experiencing it? But also, you know, I speak, I’m speaking in my chair as a white woman, right? How do I be more aware of, like, when am I failing to show up well for others?

Farah Harris
Yeah, the weathering is kind of like a wearing down, you know. If you think about it, if you’re constantly in survival mode, you know, back to the the code switching, which is the term that we are more used to hearing is when you’re changing, your dialect, your, maybe your tone of voice, for some may even be how you present physically. So, within the book, I do share about the study about women wearing their hair, natural versus not natural hair, and how that’s perceived as more professional, hence why we have the Crown Act, to go against the discrimination against how you wear your hair, in the social settings, whether it’s the school or at work. And if I have to change myself so much, that takes work, right? Because there’s only one me but if I can’t even be me, I have to become this this fictional person, or I call it you know, you’re sending your representative. You send somebody to work or to school that is not necessarily you. You know, I think about even if we remove race and we bring in the privilege of being non-disabled, you show up how you want to show up. But if you have Tourette Syndrome, for example, you know, you not wanting to cause discomfort for everybody else when your tics start happening, that takes work. And sometimes it actually exasperates the tic, right. And so you’re causing your body physical harm, because the stress level, because you’re in survival mode, right? So there’s fight, flight, freeze, fawn, and whatever other –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Flock.

Farah Harris
But if you, right and so you have this extra level of cortisol and we know that it’s not supposed to be housed in our body for an extended amount of time, it’s supposed to be the short bursts (snaps) to get you into action to protect yourself. But if every day I’m going to the workplace, every day, I’m going to the school, to the PTA to wherever it is, and I have to go as a representative of myself, I have to make sure that I’m masking certain things, I’m covering certain things to not cause discomfort, that is eating away at me physically. So even though I know there’s the saying, black don’t crack, (laughs) and that we age, well, you know, on the outside, but internally, you know, there’s higher rates of you know, diabetes and hypertension, and all these other ailments. Due to the fact that we’re, our body is in, you know, you use that quote in my book about the P is not past or post, it’s it’s past, persistent, present, it’s always here. So we are constantly having cortisol through our veins. And there’s adverse health effects. So you know, there’s depression, there’s anxiety, there’s difficulty remembering things, there’s, you know, a poor immune system, your gut health, digestive health, reproductive health, like all of that. So just all of us have experienced stress. But then what happens when you add racial stress? What happens when you add, you know, being part of the queer community, and we see what’s going on with legislators, if there are states that they’re telling you do not travel to, –

And you happen to live in one of those states. And now you’re like, my family lives here. And this is where my job is. And, and I’m not safe here. Now what?

And so, you know, granted, as I said, I spoke from my place of competency, so I share the statistic of the weathering within black bodies. But I’m curious to know what’s the weathering like for other people who’ve experienced consistent and persistent injustice, and marginalization, and that’s where I really am wanting us to become more socially aware. It’s like, okay, it does start with race, though, because that’s the biggest, that’s the biggest thing.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.

Farah Harris
That we’re dealing with and it’s the thing that we want to avoid the most. But if we can get an understanding and a hold of this domino, and tip it down the way that it should be tipped down, all these other isms that we are experiencing, we can knock those down too.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Clearly we need to have you back because I think it’d be really valuable. And maybe we can find time this summer to have you come back. And you and I can have a real good talk about your part three, which is how do we use emotional intelligence from an ally-ship perspective? You know, one of the quotes that you shared was from your colleague, Melissa Douglas, who’s a therapist as well, who she says delayed self-care becomes self-rescue. So for people who are listening, it’s such that that was like a, I mean, it was just a, phew, you know, –

Farah Harris
The first time I heard her say that I was like, Melissa, I’m going to use this every single chance I get. Because we we, in our society, I don’t know about other cultures, but definitely in these yet to be United States.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.

Farah Harris
We are constantly viewing self-care as a privilege, and not a priority. It’s a nice to have, you can get to it get to it. And you know, I don’t think that we really have a health care system, we have a health management system.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right

Farah Harris
So we’re not really trying to be preventive. It’s like, here’s what you do when you get sick, versus here’s what to do to prevent these ailments. And we’ve even seen seen it with COVID where I’m like, well, this is really hitting those who have maybe lower immunity. Why aren’t we having discounts on organic foods, fresh vegetables and fruit, you’re telling us to get a vaccine, which we should, but we’re not being proactive. We’re not finding preventative measures. We’re not creating equity in how we are able to experience food because there’s food deserts you know. We have these issues with those who live in you know, lower socio economic places. So it it jus baffles me but then they’re just like, you know, But get a spa day, get out, get a mani pedi, go on vacation.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Get your nails nails done.

Farah Harris
Get your nails done and your hair did and you’re gonna be fine. And I don’t think we feel that mental health is serious until it becomes serious. And you know, and I think I share too, that there’s the I think it’s the Mental Health Alliance has the four – stage four program where it’s just like, you wouldn’t wait till stage four, to address cancer. But yet, this is what we do with our mental health. And so when Melissa said, you know, you don’t want it to be self rescue, like I’m already drowning. Now, let me go ahead and try to take a break. Let me go ahead and use that PTO. Let me start putting up my boundaries. It’s like no, don’t wait until it’s too late. Because then we see how people break. They emotionally break, the relationships break. And I’ve been saying recently that just mental illness and mental health can be such a thief. And so we have to be very careful on how we steward our health and well being. And to understand that it’s not just us, we can actually be of service to help others to steward their well being, as you know, because if we’re harming them, right, so we are part, like you said, of the dominant culture, and we’re creating harm, but yet we’re telling them take care of yourself. So that’s the whole, you know, God bless all the listening circles and healing circles that happened in 2020. But it bothered me because I’m like, you want me to talk to the black employees, while they are still sitting in this place of perpetual harm. I can’t heal them. The harm – you know, they’re the aggressors are still here, and not aware that they’re, they’re causing the aggression. Or they may be, you know, there’s some who were intentionally doing it. And so I just really want people to take care of themselves, but understand that you also have the wonderful privilege to help others take care of themselves too.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You used the word steward a lot. And I think that it’s such a powerful image. And it’s, you know, it’s a, I know it’s a deep value of yours is how do you steward your life? And how do you help steward others? What, you know, when you think about somebody picking up this book, and maybe you think about it through a couple different lenses? What do you hope that they’ll leave thinking differently and doing differently as a result?

Farah Harris
Hmm. I kind of share that, my hope, in the dedication of the book. And so for, for those who’ve been pushed in the margins, my hope is that they feel deeply seen as they read this book, and that I’m giving language to things that they’ve experienced, and they didn’t have the words for. And I hope it gives them a sense of freedom, and to have agency over their bodies and how they show up in the world. For those who – part three, it’s called, you know, For Allies, but you know, I put the ies in parentheses, and it’s really for all, but for those of us who just know, like, Man, I think the world can be better. And I don’t have to wait for somebody else to do the work. I hope that this book provides them the tools that they need to one do the self reflective work. In part one, just really understanding their family of origin, you know, how, why these feelings show up? How come I react this way, or don’t react this way. And then being able to have even greater understanding of the experiences of those who’ve been intentionally marginalized. And to be able to critically think and go like, Oh, maybe I didn’t know. Maybe I didn’t see. And now that I do know, and now that I have seen I can now properly regulate myself so that I can show up because I think – and you’ve used this quote to from Minda Harts, so if I misquote you correct me, you know that people they benefit from our courage, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, people, people don’t benefit from your caution. Yeah, it’s people don’t benefit from your caution. But they can benefit from your courage.

Farah Harris
Yes. So I think sometimes we want to show up well, we want to be the upstander. But it’s hard to be the upstander. If you are dysregulated, it’s hard to be the upstander. If you don’t know yourself, it’s hard to be the upstander if you have blinders on, right. And so this book is to help, you know, turn your head a bit so you can see what’s in your blind spot. This book is to help you gauge your awareness of how you deal with feelings and start practicing that self awareness and self regulation piece. So that now you don’t have an excuse to not show up well, and to not become the good steward that your values and what you believe you are. Yeah, yeah, I think, that’s my hope.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. It’s, I mean, it’s for everyone, again, listening, please be sure to check out, buy her book, I’ll hold it up for those of you who will look at it on – because it’s a sexy little cover. It’s such a –

Farah Harris
It is!

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love the cover that you went with. It’s so beautiful. It’s so beautiful. And you know, Farah, just thank you for being persistent in this work. Thank you for having the – being able to ride the journey that you needed to ride to get this book so that each of us can hopefully be and do better because of it. I cannot recommend enough for folks to check out this book. And for people who want to connect with you Farah, what’s the best way for them to connect with you to learn more about the work and how you support companies and individuals? Where would you like them to go?

Farah Harris
I would love them to check out my company website Working Well Daily dot com. There, you can also get a taste of other writings, you know, with my blog, and you’d understand the different ways that I help organizations through speaking and consulting and advising and coaching, I love for you to follow me on LinkedIn, I share a lot of content there. LinkedIn is probably getting more than I should give it. (laughter) And so that’s at Farah Harris LCPC, same handle on Twitter and on Instagram. And I know that you are definitely doing everything you can to push my book and I appreciate that. But we have book cousins.

Sarah Noll Wilson
We do. (laughs)

Farah Harris
And so I feel like honestly, that if you really enjoyed Sarah’s book that you would also really enjoy mine because they really do align and work together if you really want to address those elephants in the room. And I literally have a chapter about the elephants. This this, the pairing of these will be I think very instrumental to you being a great leader.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I agree Farah. Thank you my love.

Farah Harris
Thank you, sweetheart.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I want to take a quick moment to just clarify I had referenced a book that I had recently read that I recommend called Come As You Are and I want to make sure I get the author’s name right to honor them. So their name is Emily Nagoski. So Dr. Emily Nagoski.

Our guest this week has been Farah Harris. And I always learned something incredible in our conversations. And one of the things that’s really sticking with me was that point she made of we all emotionally regulate, we just might not do it in a way that’s productive and healthy, was very, very resonant for me. And we’d love to hear what resonates for you. You can always send us an email at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. You can also send me a message on social media where my DMs are always open. If we are not connected on LinkedIn, let’s make sure we do that. So please be sure to connect or to follow me there. If you like what you heard, and you want to support the show, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe on your preferred podcast platform, that helps us get more exposure and bring on great guests like Miss Farah. And if you’d like to financially support the show, you can do so by becoming a patron you can go to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where your financial contribution supports all the incredible team members who make the show possible.

I want to just give a big thank you as I always do, because I’m so grateful to our incredible team. So to our podcast producer Nick Wilson, thank you. To our sound editor Drew Noll, thank you. To our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, thank you. To ksn marketing servies our marketing consultant, thank you and to the entire SNoWCo. crew. We wouldn’t be doing what we’re doing without all of you. And just a big wholehearted thank you to Farah Harris for joining us on the show and for putting her work out into the world so we can all be better. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening, for tuning in, for choosing to spend your time with us. And remember, when we change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So I look forward to seeing you next week. Please be sure to rest and rehydrate. Take care everyone.