Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Elaine Lin Hering as they discuss cultures of silence, why the solution is not as simple as “speak up,” and other insights from Elaine’s forthcoming book Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully.
About Our Guest
Elaine Lin Hering is a facilitator, author, and speaker. She works with leaders to diagnose challenges and build capacity in negotiation, influence, and conflict management skills. She has worked on six continents and facilitated executive education at Harvard, Dartmouth, Tufts, UC Berkeley, and UCLA. She is the former Advanced Training Director for the Harvard Mediation Program and a Lecturer on Law at Harvard Law School. She coaches women and minoritized individuals navigating executive leadership in majority white spaces. She is the author of the forthcoming book Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully (Penguin, 2024).
Resources mentioned
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello, and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And today we are going to be exploring the topic of silence. How we silence ourselves, how we silence each other, and how we can find our voice. And I am so, so excited for you all to meet our guest, Elaine Lin Hering, we connected on LinkedIn last year sometime and has quickly become honestly one of my favorite thought leaders to learn from on LinkedIn and getting the opportunity to to do a pre read of her book has been amazing. So let’s get into it. So Elaine Lin Hering is a facilitator, author and speaker. She works with leaders to diagnose challenges and build capacity in negotiation, influence and conflict management skills. She has worked on six continents and facilitated executive education at Harvard, Dartmouth, Tufts, UC Berkeley and UCLA. She is the former advanced training director for the Harvard mediation program, and a lecturer on law at Harvard Law School. She coaches women and minoritized individuals navigating executive leadership in majority white spaces. And she is the author of the forthcoming book Unlearning Silence, How To Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent and Live More Fully. Elaine, welcome to the show.
Elaine Lin Hering
Thank you so much for having me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I am so excited to introduce our audience to you if they’re not, I’m just I’m gonna keep plugging your book throughout. Pause the recording right now go preorder her book, Unlearning Silence, you will not regret it. It comes out in March, right? March 2024. So please do that. And I will continue to just – I’ll pitch on your behalf. (laughter)
Elaine Lin Hering
Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s sometimes uncomfortable.
Elaine Lin Hering
Now unpause and actually listen to the conversation too. (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. Come back to the conversation. Yeah. So what else would you like people to know about you?
Elaine Lin Hering
You know, it’s a funny thing to put a book out in the world. And it’s a funny thing to come from places like Harvard because people assume things about you. I will say that I’ve spent a ton of time and a lifetime exploring, navigating, coaching people on silence. I wouldn’t say I’m an expert, I would say I’m a co-learner. And this book is my best attempt to date to push forward a conversation that I think our society, our teams, our organizations, our families, desperately need to have. Because as I taught negotiation skills, difficult conversation skills, feedback skills, all theories, frameworks coming out of the Harvard Negotiation Project, you know, there’s still some people who didn’t negotiate, didn’t have the conversations, didn’t talk about the elephants in the room. And I started to ask, why is that? Because the answer is not try harder, or just do it. And the missing piece to me is silence. The silence we’ve learned, the silence we benefit from, the silence we perpetuate, the ways we continue to silence the people around us, despite being really well intentioned leaders, really well intentioned people. So that’s why I want to talk about silence.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s interesting, even the use of silence. I was, I was telling Nick last night, (chuckles) I said, I haven’t been able to articulate for myself what it is about the language of silence that feels more provocative? That feels more real, that feels more urgent, then? Because I often talk about avoidance and understanding why do we avoid.
Elaine Lin Hering
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But that that language of silence, again, there does feel – there’s like a different kind of heaviness. So start us, just take us a little bit on your journey. Like what’s the, what’s the abbreviated version –
Elaine Lin Hering
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Of your path to this point of being so passionate about helping people unlearn silence?
Elaine Lin Hering
I’m going to first give our listeners just some definitions, because there’s so much celebration of silence, right? Like you need the pause. The generative silence is going to do amazing things for your body, your brain, if you would just pause and choose a response, the world would be at a better place. And I wholeheartedly agree with that. So when we’re talking about silence, we’re talking about there’s not enough room, energy in the room for your ideas. There’s not enough space for what you bring. You have to edit out parts of yourselves because they’re considered unacceptable, or you’re getting messages that they’re not welcome. It is, oh, we could disrupt to the inequity or the behavior here, we could say something but we say nothing. And what does that silence actually mean? You get the phrase silence is violence, you get the phrase that silence means that you’re supporting something. Is that really what you mean? We don’t know. So that ambiguity, is part of the silence we’re talking about that is problematic. And it is also typically unconscious. How many? And this goes to answer your question of how I got here. How many of us are actually aware that we are silencing ourselves and not just what we say, but silencing our awareness of the things that matter to us, of the things that we think or feel, because there’s so much in this world of what we should do. I, as an Asian American woman am supposed to be fill in the blank, I am not supposed to be fill in the blank. All of those biases, expectations, things reinforced by media things reinforced by the leaders around us. We internalize all of that. And what that means is we silence ourselves. So let me give you another definition, which is what is voice? Voice isn’t just the words that we say, voice is also how we move through the world. How do I as an individual want to move through the world? What impact can I make? Not? What does my manager want me to do? What does my, not what does my family expect me to do? But what about me? Do I matter? And that is how I got to this topic, because I was in leadership development, teaching these skills, giving out the same advice given to me, which was, if you need, if you’re not getting your voice heard, you just need to speak up.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
And there is a part to that. I will own that, that is unlearning my own silence, though, I have to build that muscle to say what I think, to tolerate the costs that are there. But to say that that is the only problem and the only lever we can pull absolves most of us from any responsibility, because the problem, quote unquote, is the people who aren’t speaking up if they would just speak up, we’d be good.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
Versus how are we each contributing to this silence? The messages we’re sending every time you don’t say something, you perpetuate a culture of silence. As a manager, as a leader, if people aren’t seeing that you’re saying something, if you do it behind closed doors. But that’s not the dominant narrative. That’s how organizational silence gets perpetuated. So we got to talk about silence. And that is my own journey. I am the youngest daughter of a Asian American family. I am a Christian who’s supposed to turn the other cheek.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.
Elaine Lin Hering
I was the first non white partner at a global leadership development firm. I was the youngest by multiple decades in most of the rooms that I’ve been in. And the the challenge has always been faced, framed as Elaine, just speak up. It’s your problem, change you. And I have to do my part. I also want everybody else to do their part.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s the – no I appreciate you taking time to define and there is some of the language you use in the book I thought was particularly provocative of that silence is by definition, an absence. An absence of voice, an absence of an opinion and an absence of life. And when you talk about voice, and I think it’s really interesting, again, even how you use the language of voice, that it’s not like how to use your voice. It’s like how do you voice, right? Like, it’s, here’s the verb, right? A voice. But showing up as we intend, rather than how others intend for us. And that was something that was – I had, I was riding waves of emotion as I was reading your book, because there was moments of becoming aware of my own journey of times when I can remember I didn’t have the language of being silenced.
Elaine Lin Hering
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But very clearly looking back and going, how many times was I told you’re too much? How many times was I told you’re too passionate? How many times have I been told since I was a toddler, you just talked too much. I mean, that’s literally the lore of my family is me following my siblings around and talking too much. And you know, and while while well intended love and observations, right? There are situations or as a woman or as a, right, in different situation. So there were those waves I was riding, but then there were also the waves of, shoot. When have I silenced people? And becoming aware of that whether it was intentional or unintentional? There was a few stories that you know, maybe we’ll get to that was like, I think I’m Jerome.
Elaine Lin Hering
(Laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
I think the story about Jerome’s enthusiasm might actually have been written for me.
Elaine Lin Hering
But let me be clear.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughs)
Elaine Lin Hering
I didn’t know you when I was writing the book. So they’re not about you, just for the record.
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, I know, I know. But I was like, I think, I think this is, I think this is me. There, you know, there was something – Okay, wait. So for folks who are listening to this, I tried really hard to capture all the notes that I highlight. And I have about five pages. So it might take me a second to find it. Yeah. Okay. Can I, can I read back some of your words to just like echo and I want to, I want to expand on this.
Elaine Lin Hering
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Because, because you’re right, so often. So often, we’re told that you just need to speak up more, you need to find your voice, you need to be more confident, you need to negotiate better. In one of the sections I think that I read over and over, I’ve read it a few times now was, you said, “To be clear, as a consultant who works across industries, organizations and borders, it is on me to adapt my style. Being able to lower people’s defenses, helping them feel connected, and hear things that they need to hear is what makes me good at my job. And as a human who strives to be kind and considerate to others, it is also on me to read the room, acknowledge the data people are giving me and take that into consideration. But here’s what is not on me. The constant unrelenting need to quickly calculate what I’m going to say, whether I’m going to say it, how much blowback there’s going to be, whether I have energy or capacity to take it and what impact it’s going to have on my career, or how it’s going to change the relationship in my home or on my team because of the identities I hold. It is on everyone to create that space, so that the costs aren’t disproportionately borne by the people who have to do the most work.”
Elaine Lin Hering
Well, now I’m misty eyed.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I, Elaine, I mean, this is such important. – So let’s talk about that, and why it’s so important for the rest of us. You know, we we can we can dig into, and we will explore the ways we silence ourselves, but so much of that, right. And as you talk about in your booklet, we aren’t born understanding these rules of silencing, we learned them, right, we learned them from the world around us. So what do we like? Well, I don’t even know where to start with this. Because like, we know what contributes, we know elements of what contributes to it. But I’m just curious. Yeah, like, let’s expand on this. How, how do we reflect on the ways we silence people? And maybe let’s just start there? Like, what are the most common ways that we silence people? What are the most common ways we might not even be aware of it? And then what are the things we can do? And I know this is a big ask, but I want to start here because there’s so much out there about how to speak up more.
Elaine Lin Hering
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And you and you also share that. But I think this is a perspective that’s very unique that you bring to the table that’s sorely missing from the conversation.
Elaine Lin Hering
I’ll take a deep breath.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
Because as you said, and I love that you described it as waves. There’s a lot, there’s a lot in the book, there’s a lot to this topic, there is a lot of defense’s we each could have, because many of us are like, No, I’m a good person. I don’t silence other people. And I will be the first to say that we do. I do. There are stories in the book of sort of my big professional mishaps that I still regret, but have also apologized for and how do we move through the guilt, the shame, to decide what to do differently. So if we take nothing away from this, I would hope, nothing else away from this, I would hope it is that we we can choose what we want to do going forward. What we learned, what we internalized. If we’re aware of what that is we can wrestle with it and make conscious choices going forward. To me that is the message of hope, of what we have been, of the impacts we have do not have to determine what we do and the impacts that we have going forward. In the book, I’ve talked about nine different ways essentially that we unintentionally silence people. And again, this is an observation of having worked with so many leaders across industries who are so genuinely well intentioned. And then you talk with their direct reports in confidential diagnostic conversations and their direct reports are like they’re the worst. They don’t do anything. They don’t support me. And then you talk to the managers and they’re like, I do nothing but support you. What the eff is going on here?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, you trust me, right? Yeah, sure. Uh huh. I totally do.
Elaine Lin Hering
And I’ll do it with a smile, because that’s what keeps me in my job.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
I will, let’s go with two things, I’ll name them. And then this is a choose your own adventure that you get to choose. So one of the most common ways we silence people is to do things by default, rather than by intentional design. The second is that we, as human beings make things about us. And it’s not always about us, especially as leaders, especially as people in relationships. If we talk about marriage, if we talk about parenting, if we talk about being in community or family, we want it to be about us, it’s a lot easier if it’s about us. And sometimes it’s, we silence people when we make it about ourselves. And we do it so subconsciously in conversation, and we can analyze that if we want, that we don’t even notice it. And the impact is that it leaves other people feeling unseen, unheard and feeling like well, it’s not even worth me sharing, because Elaine’s just gonna make it about herself. And to do the intervention in the moment, I could do that. But that’s exhausting.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
So those are two ways.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay. Let’s, I want to start with, we do things by default. And without intentional design, and I want to explore this for a couple of reasons. You know, one, we know a lot of the people who are listening are in leadership positions, or in HR leadership positions, you know, and you spent a fair amount of time in the book talking about, you know, just things like how do we get more explicit about culture? And how do we be really intentional about that. And then personally, I want to explore it, because I’m really fortunate to have an incredible friend and coach Stephanie Chin, who has worked with me for a few years. And you know, and she’s the first person to ever use the word silence. She said, Sometimes I feel silenced by your work, or I feel silenced with your team, because of the default of Midwest nice. Because of the default of how we operate. And, and it is, I mean, I’ll just share, it’s, that might have been one of the most difficult pieces of feedback that I’ve ever received, because the last thing that you want, is that and yet, unintentionally, because we were operating from default, and I’m still, right, I’m still – I’m a work in progress. And working with her and working with other folks and connecting with great leaders like yourself, is helping me think about how to be much more intentional about that. So let’s so when you say we do things by default, but not by intentional design, what does that look like?
Elaine Lin Hering
There are norms that exist in every family, every team, every organization. Let’s take the family as a family system. (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Literally, my head is like, I know the norms of my husband family that I have to adapt to. He’s like, I know the norms of Sarah’s family that I had to adapt to. (laughter) Like, so as soon as you said family, sorry, I just have this like, yep, we. So, keep going.
Elaine Lin Hering
In-laws and in-law families are really hard. I say this lovingly having just spent a week in rural Minnesota with my in-law.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Elaine Lin Hering
And I actually think it’s a great place to start, because it’s usually so well intentioned.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
There’s typically so much love and care and intention for inclusion in those families. And yet, the way that we do that, you know, sometimes we don’t even realize it, this is just the way that things have been done. This is how things are done in the world. When we talk about whether we drink almond milk or cow’s milk. Whether we eat at six or 6:05.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, (laughs)
Elaine Lin Hering
Whether when we gather in person, we talk and have conversation, or we sit and scroll on our phones together and what constitutes quality time. None of those are real examples, of course, from my own.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, hypothetically a norm might be (laughs) you don’t talk while you eat and you’re just very efficient as opposed to dinner is going to be an extravaganza for four hours and we are just going to like – I’m not saying that might be. (laughs) Just so hypothetical.
Elaine Lin Hering
And does it matter whether we chew with their mouths open? Right? All of the things that we were taught that were normal in our families of origin, when we blend them with other families, start to become like, wait this you don’t do this? Who are you? Who thinks like that?
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
That’s what I mean by default, right? The norm, what has become normal to us is by default, and it is comfortable for some and uncomfortable for others. It serves certain people, and it actually silences some people for whom that is not the norm, is not the the way that they grew up, is not the skill set that they have. And we take that into the workplace. And often it is the founders, the leaders who are just doing what is normal. And we perpetuate that by the leadership books. And the advice given which by the way, if you look at the breakdown, most thought leadership comes from white cisgendered men. So then what are you supposed to do if you are not white, not male. But that’s, that’s good advice. That is best practice. So the first step to me is just to acknowledge that these are norms that formed over time, that calcified by industries, that are just the status quo. And by just I don’t mean to minimize it, but it’s to say there’s not a moral, there’s not more reality to this is the best way, this is the way things are done in different parts of the world, there is a different norm, but it is the dynamic that sociologists and psychologists talk about in terms of dominant identities, and subordinated identities. And the dominant identities and norms tend to drive what is normal. And if you don’t do that, you are othered. And so by nature, you are working uphill, you have to use voice, because no one else is naming it. No one else even realizes it is what we’re all swimming in. This is just what it, this is just how things are done here, which again, is why cultural fit is so problematic in workplaces. But let’s let’s go even micro which is on a team, if you’re a morning person, you might assume that everybody is a morning person, and you schedule meetings in the morning because that is when you are firing at all cylinders. And then the afternoon you take that dip, so you avoid that. But what about the people for whom they’re, they’re better in the afternoon or in the evening? Even that dynamic of when are you in what Carey Nieuwhof calls your green zone versus your yellow or red zone. Where are we playing, to whose strengths, whose strengths are we playing to in how we design our meetings? When we meet, not to mention the mediums in which we meet? Right there is, I think in corporate America, I won’t say I think in corporate America, we champion people who can think on their feet, who talk in three succinct bullet points, no umms, a little bit of emotion to have authenticity, but not too much, because then you’re too emotional. And then we add in gender. It’s like smile to be friendly, but don’t smile, because then you’ll lose authority. What am I supposed to do? How am I supposed to show up? And whose voices do these norms support and celebrate? And whose voices do they silence because it means the person who post processes rather than processes in the moment, the person who is better communicating by writing or typing, and who by the way, is frickin brilliant, and you want them on your team and you want their ideas represented? If they can’t, quote unquote, translate that into the real time conversation in three succinct bullet points, are we really going to ignore their thoughts? And because we talked about silence as an absence, we don’t even realize that their thoughts are missing?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. There’s, gosh, there’s so much. The, I’m really struck by the, you know, whose strengths are we playing to? And whose voices are we supporting? And that that is such a common? What do I want to say? We see that all the time in our work as well of right, the fast thinkers. That’s something we’ve wrestled with on our team. My colleague, Teresa, is a, she always lovingly says her brain has an on ramp.
Elaine Lin Hering
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and, you know, so I know that if she has a couple of days to think about it, she’ll produce something really amazing. And so we’re constantly trying to find this fit of how do we blend our styles, our preferences? And you know, and it’s a it’s a, the real big watch out, because as the business owner, the defference is to me, and my style, right?
Elaine Lin Hering
Totally. So let’s take that, which is that’s the default, business owners default, and we have the opportunity to design. So when you’re talking about blending, that that to me is actually just how are we going to intentionally design the ways that we communicate, the ways that we work together to optimize for a voice. Let’s also acknowledge that in a global environment, there’s no perfect hour of the day. Right, I talked in the book about breastfeeding, video off, in the middle of the night, because I’m talking with folks in Bangalore. And I’ve been on the short end of the stick long enough to be like, let me take this call at 12:30 in the morning, even though I’m not going to be my finest because then at least you’re not up in the middle of night again. And I think as a leader, that is something that is so powerful to do if you can, and if you can’t, then at least acknowledge that this is going to be a stretch, this deprioritizes the preferences and the strengths of people in x location. Right. And that is the constraint of reality. But let’s not assume that everyone is on the same playing ground when we’re making those choices. So it’s not to say that you you have to change but be aware of the costs of the choices that you’re making, because you’re not usually the ones bearing that cost, except for not benefiting from Teresa’s genius, in the same way. And you see this play out so much with headquarters and satellite offices, right, of course, we would have everybody fly to headquarters. That’s just how things are done. Again, notice the norm. And if you haven’t been in a satellite office, you haven’t had to physically fly across, do the red eye to get there to then be half awake to show up for meetings and get home if you’re trying to juggle kids and family and life. You know, it is a week long recovery for that one trip that people at headquarters who showed up to their normal commute don’t have to stomach. And sometimes those are the choices we make. But let’s be aware of the cost and optimize for voice where we can.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s interesting to think about the idea of optimizing for voice. And obviously, it it takes an incredible amount of willingness to be self aware.
Elaine Lin Hering
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And some intellectual humility, and courageous curiosity, if you will, of of what are those norms? And who, who do they support? And it’s, it’s, you know, the what’s coming up for me is even just thinking and I don’t know if this is like how you approach it, but I’m imagining, even just asking the question, how? Well, two two ways.
Elaine Lin Hering
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m reflecting for myself going, how do we optimize for voice, is never a question I’ve thought about in that way. Maybe variations of it. But there’s something really powerful. But then it’s interesting to think about for those who are in consulting roles or support roles to reflect with their leaders. How, how do we optimize for voice in this organization? And if I had to guess most don’t.
Elaine Lin Hering
No. And to me, the answer starts with asking and answering the question independently and together. So for each of us, whatever your role, wherever you are in an organizational hierarchy, what communication mediums best support my voice. And where you have influence over that, can you design to use that medium. A next step would be having a conversation with your manager or with your peers. That can sound like it’s just sharing your awareness, right? And the conversations I’ve had or Hey, I am going to be able to show up better, I’m going to be able to bring, contribute more effectively if you give me the questions ahead of time. You’re going to get my best thinking 20 minutes after the meeting. So can we withhold decision making for 20 minutes, or overnight if we can. And it takes an incredible amount of self awareness and also discipline to not continue to perpetuate the defaults, because we’re so busy, right? Who is stopping to ask and answer those questions when we’re going meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting, except for the time savings and an energy savings and the better outcomes that you get from literally 30 seconds to ask and answer that question. And for the people who process better ahead of time. Put that question on your agenda for your one on one. Name it to say, Hey, I’ve heard this on a podcast. I’m curious what best supports you. I don’t want you to answer right now. But think about it. And next week or in two weeks when we have our next one on one. I’m curious what comes up for you? And I’d also like to share what I think works best for me and let’s figure out a way forward. That’s three minutes of a conversation that pays dividends down the line. And also disrupts the default.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure. Yeah. Because you’re aware that there is a default and you’re naming and you’re being intentional about that. I think that that is one of the one of the things we see so often is we don’t, we don’t invest in the relationship until there’s a problem. And sometimes by then it’s too late. Because if I’m feeling silenced, and sometimes I’ll lovingly say, distrust is silent. Most people aren’t going to be like, I actually have a really high level of distrust about you. I was ruminating about you last night, can we grab coffee and talk about how I have to walk on eggshells around you like that’s never going to happen. (laughter) And so by investing in that upfront by being really intentional about the design, I mean, there’s so many things that you’re benefiting from. One you’re getting the information so you can be intentional, but you’re also signaling to people, I value you. It’s interesting to think about, you know, from a personal perspective, what let’s like, let’s play this scenario out in the family dynamics.
Elaine Lin Hering
Love this.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What, what, yeah, like, what might that look like? Because I you know, so I know, for me, one of the things we talk about, we call it collaborative commitments, like how are we going to work together? But I, I, it’s a practice I’m trying to do even when I’m traveling with somebody, so if I’m traveling with somebody new, I’m like, What should I know about how you like to travel? And what, how do you show up on the plane? And are you somebody who is more anxious and are like, don’t talk to me? I just need to be in the zone, or do you want the distraction? Or what kind of recovery do you need? And, and so that’s something that I’ve been trying to be intentional about, which is fun, because it’s always, it’s always better for everyone. (laughs)
Elaine Lin Hering
How early should we show up at the airport?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yes! (laughs)
Elaine Lin Hering
To reduce frustration and stress? And why?
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Yeah. How many bags should we pack? Like, what’s our – so so yeah, so like, what? So how might that look? Because I think that, again, like the norms are so strong, and and whether that’s cultural norms, like, I know, I’ve grown up in the Midwest. Iowa is a culture that is very similar, right? We have a high value on similarity, we have a high value and not standing out. We have a high value on sort of harmony, even if it’s false harmony, right? Like not and it’s not even actually harmony. It’s just not –
Elaine Lin Hering
It’s conformity.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s conformity. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right. Yes.
Elaine Lin Hering
And let’s also talk about why conformity is powerful. In addition to not having to stomach the pushback, the blowback, the discomfort, the “what?” reactions. I mean, if you look at some influence advice, mimicry makes sense.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
Right. Because we are more inclined to say yes to, we are more inclined to support, we are more inclined to like people who look and sound like us. There is a net tangible benefit to behaving the same way. Except it’s usually behaving the same way as those with dominant identities. So if that is not your dominant identity, what then and at what cost? And it’s this, and that’s, that, to me, is silencing yourself. And you don’t even know what’s happening. Because as you’re a junior in organizations, you’re just learning the ropes. You’re learning how things are done here. And it is this low grade, hmm, something doesn’t quite feel right. We can talk about belonging, we can talk about inclusion, we can talk about dignity. But we don’t even name that when it is essentially silencing ourselves. Yeah, so there’s, I just want to name that there’s a reason why we do this. It makes sense from a human interaction sociological perspective. And I’m always asking the question at what cost?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
Because that having to edit yourself, over time is, is what contributes to imposter syndrome, if we want to call it that. To lack of confidence. To all the advice, well meaning advice that you named earlier in our conversation of you’re too much or too little, you’re just not right. And that is incredibly psychologically damaging, and also not usually the message we as leaders are intending to send and yet our actions do.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, you – I want to get the quote, right. Being asked to tamp down or edit parts of yourself that are different from others is a form of silence and, god this one. Being told that parts of who you are need to be edited conveys the message that you are here for your utility, rather than your humanity. – And all I kept thinking when I was reading that is, I don’t think anyone would consciously believe that they were creating – that they were, what I want to say, using people for their utility or leaning on in a more transactional way, instead of realizing the impact about the humanity.
Elaine Lin Hering
Totally. Not intentionally. But if we think about our corporations and our businesses, you are human capital, you are organizational talent, you are an asset. You weren’t here for your utilities.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You’re the most important asset.
Elaine Lin Hering
(laughs) Sorry.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like you hear that, right? Like you’re the most and like, people are our most important asset. And it’s like, oh.
Elaine Lin Hering
Do you hear yourselves?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
Because I don’t think you’re saying what you try to, you’re not communicating what you’re trying to communicate by calling someone an asset. And so that’s, that’s the tension.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
Because again, the default in how businesses and corporate has been built, is that people are assets. People are here for their utility, not their humanity. So as a middle manager, or even as a leader, who is looking at a P&L. Who is looking at the numbers, what are we supposed to do?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
And I’d argue that in our interpersonal interactions, in the way that we lead, there is a, particularly in this day and age where there’s so much darkness in the world, is this question of how are you as a person, needs to matter. Is there space in how we budget time, energy and resources for people’s humanities? We’re all going to get sick. Right? Whether it is your kid getting sick, whether it is you as a caretaker, and it’s a family member, and you’re doing long term caregiving. Whether it is a friend, if you are interacting with other human beings, (laughter) there is – or you yourself are human beings, you’re gonna get sick. So I mean, baseline is, is it a norm on this team to actually take a sick day? And does taking a sick day mean, you can be offline and not have to think about things? One would hope that is the case. And yet it is not typically the norm in so many industries, right? You’re like in bed trying to reply to the email while falling half asleep, while having a foggy break that actually serves no one.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.
Elaine Lin Hering
So as a leader, what can you do? You can do, you can disrupt that norm, right? Sarah, take a sick day, go rest, turn off your notifications, we got it. And as a leader model that. I’m taking a mental health day, or I am taking care of my mother, I’m going to be offline for the next four hours, for that time period. It is both what you say to people and what you encourage them to do. And also the messages that your own behaviors send, as we know, actions speak louder than words. That to me is something anybody can do to disrupt the system, disrupt the norms. Because even if you didn’t see it from your manager, how do you want to lead?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
Because I’m imagining that your manager may have grown up in the sea, and we’re all swimming in this water. And it’s in the air that we breathe.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right.
Elaine Lin Hering
And we haven’t stopped to think, oh, what message is that sending? Is this going to be healthy for my people, for the most valuable asset that our company has?
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) It’s a, what like, – I mean, and then some of this gets into that second point, of we make it about us, and we, and we make it about our needs, and we make it about our preferences and our defaults. And, and, and we all struggle with that, or I think many people do, right? And it has to be a conscious choice, but particularly, and I appreciate how you call this out is, the more, the more dominant identities you hold, you have to understand that your voice carries a different weight. Whether that’s right or wrong, but it does and then, and then the other thing is, you know, one of the things you wrote is, “When certain people or groups or groups of people get to decide what is acceptable and allowable. Silence ultimately becomes about control.” And, again, I think if you were to like, let’s talk in the workplace. You’re, ultimately this is about control. I think people would bristle at that. But you things that I hear. Suck it up, buttercup, you know, people just need to get on the bus. Right? Like they need to be, or we can have this conversation, but we need to do it civilly, or we need to do it respectfully, or we need to do it professionally. And I always push back like, well, so who gets to decide what professional looks like? And who gets to decide what respectful looks like? And it and who gets to decide is whoever ultimately like has the most dominant identities, which is white –
Elaine Lin Hering
Men.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Christian, you know, straight cisgender. Man. But there are times when I have the most power, because I’m a white woman, right? You know, like, or I’m the boss, or I’m the, I’m able bodied. I’m right, all of those things. And it’s a real, that’s a real provocative question that I think is really important for people to reflect on. And try to answer honestly, like, Am I doing this for control in my comfort? Or am I doing this because for the betterment of the whole?
Elaine Lin Hering
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sometimes we convince ourselves that we think we’re doing it for the betterment of the whole, but you’re just doing it because it’s comfortable for you.
Elaine Lin Hering
Totally. And one way, one tool I offer in the book is around three buckets. Let’s get clarity as to decision making. Because often, and you see this in large organizations, to the detriment of everyone and to efficiency and outcomes. I’m not going to own the decision, I’m going to escalate, in part because I don’t know if I am allowed to own it. I don’t know if I’m allowed to make the call, or I don’t want to take the heat. So let me escalate. But then you have a single person CEO making all decisions and your entire ten thousand, it just doesn’t work. That’s not why you were hired. But the construct for me of three buckets is one I’ve used most in coaching anything just lends clarity to the question. So three buckets, number one who’s deciding. Number two, who needs to be consulted, by the way consulting means I’m going to ask your opinion, ask you to advocate for what you think is best. And let’s be clear, at the end of the day, I’m going to decide or whoever’s in the decide bucket. And third is inform, which is you’re not actually going to be consulted, you’re not deciding, you’re going to hear about it. And that is actually okay. Because there is such pressure to be an inclusive leader. And by that we default to assuming that inclusion means consulting everybody.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right, consensus. Democracy.
Elaine Lin Hering
The world can’t run on consensus. We can’t run businesses on consensus. What we can do that I think has the respect and the clarity that we’re trying to get at is, is to just be clear, of who decides, who’s consulted, who’s informed. And in a functional organization, we’re each gonna rotate through those roles on all different issues.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
A CEO should not be deciding what the lunch order is for each event.
Sarah Noll Wilson
There are times where like, there’s way too many of you on this call to talk about this keynote. I just, there’s a lot of money being spent, certainly someone else could have. Well, and the other thing that’s coming up for me is, is this idea of interrogating norms is also then making sure are we interrogating the norms of who gets to decide? Are we interrogating the norms of whose voices gets asked? You know, I was talking with a client recently. And, and I was actually I was thinking about them as I was reading your book of like, this is an example of how someone has been silenced. Right. The leader always, always asks the same guy. What do you think, Mike? I don’t know what his name was. But what do you think and never asks anyone else.
Elaine Lin Hering
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Isn’t even aware that his default is he is sending a message. I value his opinion, –
Elaine Lin Hering
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
More than others, and isn’t interrogating the impact of that. And maybe there’s situations where it’s, Oh, you’re the expert in X, so I’m consulting with you. That makes sense. But again, we tend to trust people who look and sound and share our values. And then we get into groupthink. And that’s not just you know, you’re never going to be as effective.
Elaine Lin Hering
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Or as productive in that space.
Elaine Lin Hering
And also leaders, if you – so the most powerful thing leaders can do in this is to delegate decision making. Right? There’s even a place where it’s like, I actually don’t need to be consulted. You make the decision, you tell me and I will back whatever you decide. Now that last piece is incredibly important, so we don’t get into faux delegation, where it’s like, actually, I’m gonna take the decision back, actually, I’m gonna override you. Because we all know what that does for morale and effectiveness and people’s willingness to take a stance in the future. But leaders, can we get out of the way? Because if we have hired people that we trust, hired people whose talents we believe in, let’s get out of the way. Let’s equip them, get clarity for them, handover decision making and control and power and back it up. And if you don’t trust people to make decisions, then I would be asking a separate set of questions as to why? And we can talk about whether we’re avoiding those conversations about whether they’re the right person for the role or have the skill sets or what else needs to change.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. It’s you know, it’s interesting, you know, for people who are listening to this. You know, what, what, maybe they’re experiencing it. If I had to guess most people aren’t, but what, what would it feel like to work in an organization where people pushed against their default, openly? Where they had those conversations, where they really created the space to use your language optimized voice? Because, you know, that was something you you said, that I definitely have seen is that the people who are – I don’t know where it’s at in my – I wrote so much, Elaine.
Elaine Lin Hering
I’m going to say page four.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) It’s on page 10. No, but essentially, that when when you have a culture of conformity, of groupthink, that when people are speaking up and speaking out, they’re seen as combative. They’re, they’re seen as disagreeable, of being difficult. And I always say, like, they take the most arrows when you have a culture of avoidance. But I, I haven’t gonna wrestle like this, when you have a culture of silence, when you have a culture of conformity, where it’s the same people. And again, I just go back to like, and imagine what would be possible. If you’re like, yeah, no, we’re gonna we’re gonna make space for everybody.
Elaine Lin Hering
So let’s answer that question. And then let’s also talk about what happens if you don’t?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
Because I’m not sure either is clear to folks. So what is possible? What happens if you are building a culture of voice is that it is inherently going to be uncomfortable for the people for whom things have been comfortable. We are challenging the status quo, we are doing all the things that we do in any sort of change management process. Are you and the people for, who have benefited from the dominant norms ready and willing to do that? Let’s just name that that’s going to be there. So when it comes up, we don’t take it as reason to stop. Oh, this is the thing. This is new for us.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
Let’s check in, let’s talk about it. Let’s process it, let’s evaluate it. Let’s make conscious decisions going forward. What also happens is that new ideas come forward, you’re able to retain talent, you’re able to retain – you minimize, you maximize the employee experience, because often it is leaders and employees in which voices are we hear. We’re seeing people more as humans for what they bring, rather than just well, I need an administrative assistant number two, so let’s fill that role. And there’s a pipeline of people looking for work, who would easily fill that. If you’re not going to buy into how we do things here, we’ll just replace you. And we are changing that mindset to say, you as a human being, have things to offer. For the length of time that you were at this organization on this team we want, we want to support your learning growth, we want it to be a good fit, and when it’s not a good fit let’s look for the next adventure. And keep our eye on that. What happens if you don’t do that is what Albert Hirschman, the economist argues is Exit, Voice and Loyalty, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I thought that was facinating.
Elaine Lin Hering
The people who have voice take all the arrows, they get burned out, they leave, because you can only take so many arrows, and if you don’t see change, why continue to fight that battle here when you could fight it elsewhere? So Voice, Exit and Loyalty. Loyalty is about conformity. And that’s how you end up with groupthink, which is in order to stay here, I need to do what I’m told, and I need to conform and you get the echo chamber. And this is also why leaders are like, Why didn’t anyone tell me? Well, people tried. You didn’t listen. Or they didn’t feel like you heard them. Your actions signaled the same message and so they left and so you’re only left with people who are loyal to you. And to be clear, if that is what you’re trying to build, and you are satisfied with the outcomes, great, that is your prerogative. Let’s be clear about what we’re building here and the outcomes of that. If that’s not what you’re trying to build, and you, in fact, are trying to facilitate collaboration and innovation, which I think is what we’re going to need going forward. What changes do I need to make, to create space for voices that are different than mine? And that often, unfortunately, comes with discomfort, but not discomfort for the sake of discomfort, but discomfort for the sake of learning.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So beautifully said and, you know, what was coming up as you’re talking is, is how many organizations say they want, what they espouse, is very different than the reality. And, and, you know, holding up the mirror of, it’s okay, that if this is what you want, just be explicit about it. Let’s just be really explicit about it, just be honest about it, just be really clear that this is why you’re making the decisions you are who gets to make the decisions and don’t, don’t pretend to be otherwise. You know, I feel like there’s so – we know the workforce is changing, we know what people want, what they’re willing to tolerate, what they is, is we’re in a shift and people are struggling with it. And I, I really love that calling out of when you work to create a culture of voice, the people who’ve always been most comfortable will likely be the most uncomfortable. And you know, and on some level recognize that somebody has carried the burden. You know, and that was something that –
Elaine Lin Hering
There’s always a cost.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You – there’s always a cost, you know, whether that is questioning yourself, right? Like, there are times when you go, but I? Okay, but maybe. You start – and you talk a lot about this, you start questioning your gut, you start questioning your instinct, but also the fact of having to navigate particular when you’re part of the subordinate identities, right? Like you’re navigating the emotional energy, and the relational energy and the potential trauma and all of that, like somebody is carrying the cost.
Elaine Lin Hering
Yep.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, you know, something that I’ve, that I’ve really, that’s been a perspective that’s been valuable for me on like, my journey from inclusion, anti racism, equity perspective, is to just right size my discomfort. Like my, my discomfort in being pushed, doesn’t even compare to someone’s discomfort in being gaslit. And that doesn’t doesn’t mean that I minimize my experience, like, I don’t want to silence it, I just put it in perspective of, I’m gonna be okay. And –
Elaine Lin Hering
I love that, right sizing of the perspective. I also want to say the discomfort isn’t futile, it’s not for nothing. The discomfort often actually brings those of us who are well intentioned leaders into greater alignment with how we actually want to show up in the world.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Beautifully said.
Elaine Lin Hering
Right? And I’m thinking about teaching my kid to ride a bike. And the times he fell down, the times that he couldn’t get the pedals to start, that was highly uncomfortable for him and for me. But what it got to was him being able to ride and coast. And to me being more aligned with how we want to show up, with how we see ourselves, with the impact we want to have on the world. That is what we are working toward what we’re working through to get there. Because the frustration of seeing ourselves one way and not being able to have the impact on the people around us that is aligned with what we intend. That’s frustrating too.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering
And it’s also something we have more control over. Which is, what could I do differently, that helps me have the impact I actually want?
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s such a – I really love that perspective of like the discomfort – you said earlier, the discomfort is for learning. Right? And to create that culture of learning. That discomfort opens up more ideas, but also that like that discomfort of wrestling with your perception of yourself versus the actual impact you make. That’s not comfortable. Right?
Elaine Lin Hering
Yes. Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, our brain, that cognitive dissonance of, Shit, you mean I’m not a good person? You know, but it’s like, but you don’t – I know, I know. But the brain is like –
Elaine Lin Hering
Yes. Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And it’s like, yeah, and sometimes, and sometimes we mess up. And sometimes we mess up intention. Sometimes we do things intentionally. Like I’m, we have shadow intentions, that’s what I lovingly call them. There are times when we want to poke.
Elaine Lin Hering
Yep.
Sarah Noll Wilson
When we probably should be hugging. (laughs) You know, and there are times when we feel powerless. So the way we recover is we try to get power over someone. And, and then there are times when we unintentionally do it. And like, that’s, that’s painful. But I really love that. That’s a real gift you’re giving me of – I, because I’ve experienced it. I’m, I’m, I’m experiencing it. I see leaders we work with experiencing it. But I don’t know that I’ve ever thought of it in that way of like, yeah, this discomfort, it’s actually like moving you closer to how you actually want to show up and the actual impact you want to make not just the story you tell yourself. That’s really beautiful. You’re just – I love you so much. I love your work, I – it’s – it’s really important what you’re doing, on so many levels. And yeah, I just, I just want to sit in this, that it’s it’s really, really important what you’re doing. And there is such a need for – and we didn’t even get into today, the ways we silence ourselves, and maybe that’s for the future. But, man, if we could start creating more cultures where we’re optimizing for voice. It’s like life changing, its culture changing, its community changing, its world changing.
Elaine Lin Hering
Thank you for seeing that. And for helping spread the ideas. And I’ll pause our conversation here to let people postprocess where I end the book, which is to say unlearning silence is not for the faint of heart. It’s really hard work. And we didn’t even get into the parts today where– that’s why Mario Kart, that’s why Top Chef, those references are in the book, to help us see our humanity, but also lend some lightness to help translate what can be a really heavy topic. But I don’t want us to stop in what is hard and heavy. Yeah, I want us to get to what is on the other side of that, which is actually being able to love the people that we claim to love in our families. To get to the intimacy in relationships that we so crave. To get to the community that is an antidote to the isolation, so many of us feel. To get to the productivity and the collaboration, and the innovation that we need in our organizations. And we’re getting in our own way, by not recognizing the role that silence is playing. So that’s why it’s unlearning. And that’s why it is unlearning ING as a process. But it’s a call to action and an invitation to start today. Because why not now?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. It’s so beautifully said like, what is possible on the other side of unlearning? And I’ve been on this journey, right? I always joke that I’m a platinum card carrying member of the conflict avoidance club.
Elaine Lin Hering
Does it come with special benefits?
Sarah Noll Wilson
It, you know, I mean, I have a – I’m a silver tier level of passive aggressive. No. (laughs) I guess like I know, you know, sometimes peace but but but you’re right and I appreciate that call to action. Like, it is hard, but it is worth it. And and when you know, I just recently have been navigating some pretty heavy and hard conversations with people in my life personally. And what I will say is when you unlearn silence, and part of it is also like being able to sit with someone when they’re unlearning silence and to create that space for for them to use their voice and to not dismiss them and not deny their experience and you know, –
Elaine Lin Hering
And not make it about you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And not make it about you, right, like, you don’t have to solve this problem for them. It’s just to – and to fully love the people who are in front of us and to love them for who they really are, not who you want them to be. And for all of us to be able to step into – gosh, that whole, like, everything you talked about with editing ourselves and this is something that Nick and I talk about a lot from a gender norms perspective. And you know, and you think about it from a racial identity perspective and a sec, I mean, all of the different identities, that who wants to live a muted version of themselves? Whether that’s verbally muted or who you know, like, so? I, I love I. – Yeah. One of the things you said that I feel like is really timely as we wrap up this conversation is, you lose yourself, because it’s hard to sustain uniqueness when conformity is what’s rewarded.
And I don’t want us, any of us, to live as shells of the people we could be. There’s enough room in this world for all the beauty and complexity of each of us being human. So let’s, let’s create that. Starting with ourselves, our families, our teams. And I do think it changes the world.
Yeah. Elaine, you’re amazing. Your work is amazing. I’m just gonna, I’m gonna wait, I’ll ask you the question normally asked the next time we talk because we just need to end on that.
Elaine Lin Hering
(laughs) Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So – it is, I just have to say like, I’m so grateful that our paths crossed. Like, I’m so grateful that our paths crossed. And I’m so grateful that LinkedIn algorithm, I don’t know how we found each other, we found each other. And I’m so grateful that you have, you’re doing this work. That you were willing to come on the show, and anything that I can do. And again, I’ll say it again, folks, just go pre-order. The reason pre-orders are really important, is that help send a message to the publisher of like, how many to order? What’s the excitement around it? I do believe that this is a book that everyone needs to read. And I think what I shared with you is, it’s not necessarily the easiest read, but it’s a really important read. And, and if for some reason, you’re listening to this, and you’re thinking I would love to buy it, but I don’t have the resources. We always love to order books for people. So you can send us a message at podcast @ sarahnollwilson.com with your address. And, you know, I don’t know whoever sends us an email, we’ll send you a copy of the book, we’ll happily cover that for like at least the first 20 people who are interested. Elaine, if people are interested in connecting with you, in learning more about your work, potentially working with you, what’s the best way for people to connect with you?
Elaine Lin Hering
Hello @ elainelinhering.com. And if you are sort of let’s let’s feel this out, get to know you phase. Join me on LinkedIn. I’m at Elaine Lin Hering dot nothing, just Elaine Lin Hering (laughter) or find me through Sarah’s profile on LinkedIn. I’m there pretty much every day. And I’ll say that LinkedIn for me, which brought us together Sarah, is an exercise in voice. Because I was told for many years to stay off social media. If my content was good enough, I didn’t need to be on it. And that was not advice that was right for me. And I didn’t interrogate it until the Penguin author development team said very kindly, Elaine, it’s time. It’s 2022. (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
And your content is so good. I mean that’s the other thing is, you know, what I find value in the content that you put out and you know, pushes me as I figure out my own voice and stepping into my voice is you are constantly interrogating publicly. You are constantly reflecting and offering reflections and pushing us to think and consider different perspectives and I yeah, you’re definitely one of my favorite favorite folks to to follow and to learn from and I’m I’m just so grateful. I’m so grateful for you.
Elaine Lin Hering
Right back at you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been Elaine Lin Hering. And as you all heard I was frantically writing down notes. This is an episode I’m certainly going to go back to. I think the biggest thing that I want to take away, not just to think about, but to continue taking action on is, what are what are the norms that I’ve created? Not just at in my company, but in my life and how do I push against them to make sure that I create more space for more voices? That’s just that’s sitting real heavy and powerfully on my heart. And we want to hear from you. We always love to hear what comes up for you. What insights do you have? What connections are you making? So you can reach out to us at podcast @ sarahnollwilson.com. Or you can find me on social media where my DMs are always open. I’m most visible on LinkedIn these days. And also, if you’re interested in picking up a copy of her book, happy to order some for you, I want to support her. I think this work is really important. So shoot us a message and the first 20 people who reach out, I will order a book on your behalf. And, and I just want to say thank you for being with us on the show. These conversations are so important for us to consider new perspectives to be able to show up more powerfully. And I’m really grateful that you all continue to show up for us week after week. And if you’d like to continue to support the show, you can do so a couple different ways. If you haven’t already, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us increase exposure be able to bring on great guests like Elaine Lin Hering. And if you’re interested in financially supporting the show, you can become a patron. You can go to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where your investment directly supports the team that makes the show possible.
Speaking of that amazing team, let’s give them some love. To our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo crew. I couldn’t do this without all of you. And just a big thank you to Elaine Lin Hering and the wonderful work that she’s doing. I am a better person because of the conversations she and I have had. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening. Thank you for doing this work. And remember when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So please be sure to rest, rehydrate and I’ll see you again next week.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.