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Episode 017: A Conversation on Public Speaking with Erik Dominguez

a conversation on public speaking

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and Erik Dominguez as they discuss a topic that is scary for some, public speaking. What barriers hold us back from communicating confidently? Erik shares tips and lessons to help you find your voice and share your unique message.

About Our Guest

Erik Dominguez is a speaking and storytelling expert with over 25 years of experience teaching thousands of individuals from all walks of life how to powerfully present. As an immigrant who grew up between two cultures and mixed messages, his familiarity with communication fears fueled him to learn and share the mindsets and tools to be seen and heard. His team-oriented approach has centered around a philosophy that everyone has a unique story and believes that everyone can share their minds and hearts with confidence, power, and – yes – a LOT of fun!

Episode Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations, where each week we explore a topic to have us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and with other people. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, and joining me tod- today, is Erik Dominguez. Hi Erik!

Erik Dominguez
Hi, good to be here with you!

Sarah Noll Wilson
Excited to have you. Just, in full transparency for the audience, we are recording this on a Friday, and I’m a little punchy, and so we’re just going to come from this place. Now, I’m really excited to introduce you all to Erik. So let me share a little bit about his bio, the relationship that we have in our work together, and jump into our conversation. So Erik Dominguez is a speaking and storytelling expert with over 25 years of experience, teaching thousands of individuals from all walks of life how to powerfully present. As an immigrant who grew up between two cultures and mixed messages, his familiarity with communication fears fueled him to learn and share the mindsets and tools to be seen and heard. His team-oriented approach has centered around a philosophy that everyone has a unique story, and believes that everyone can share their minds and hearts with confidence, power, and yes, a lot of fun. Erik and I met through a mutual friend a while back, and Erik is not only a dear friend of mine, but he is also my speaker coach. I have been on stage for a, boy, how long? 25 years probably, and realize that there was only so much I could do and help myself in growing, and so I’ve been working with Erik over the last, on and off for the last year. And so I’m so excited for you all to meet and get to love him as much as I do. Erik, what would you like the audience to know about you?

Erik Dominguez
Quite a bit, really. I mean, the main thing that stood out of you reading my bio, is fun. You know, a lot of traditional public speaking, presentational skills can be really dry, it can be very formulaic. And I think the the top thing that I would want the listeners to know, is that it doesn’t have to be dull, dry, it can be a lot of fun, especially as you’re breaking through a lot of the speaking fears and inefficiencies. There’s so much joy that comes from really, again, being seen and heard in the way that you want to be seen and heard.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And I think that one of the things that that you do really, really well, is you’re so- because you’re so wholehearted in how you approach your work, and you’re so supportive, that it isn’t just the technical, but it’s also the emotional, it’s also the physical, it’s all of those things, that you can’t help but feel celebratory when you show up in ways that maybe you weren’t showing up before. What, I mean, we talk a little bit in your bio about your journey to this, but I would like to just spend a little bit of time on where did you start, to where you are now.

Erik Dominguez
Yeah, I, I did not start in confidence speaking. You know, again, I moved to the United States when I was eight years old, and when I came to the country, I realized that my English wasn’t strong, and my Spanish wasn’t strong, my communication skills weren’t strong at all. So, like all kids I got picked on for that particular reason. And I, you know, I created a story in my head, like we all do, that in order to stay safe, I needed to stay silent. So I just kept myself completely introverted, not by choice. I just knew that that’s the best way to avoid getting teased, getting made fun of. And it wasn’t until my sophomore year of high school that through a random series of events, I ended up in a speech and debate class, and that speech and debate class started to give me some of the mechanical tools. I think that’s, that’s really important differentiation that you made is, I learned, you know, stand up straight, put your shoulders here, have your hand gestures here, organize your speech this way. But what I really started to come to terms with, is that as I was practicing and delivering more and more speeches, my emotions and my relationship to communication changed. So when I’m working with someone, and when I’m preparing my own speaking, I really focus primarily on those emotions, because it’s those emotions that inevitably drive the mechanics of communication.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that, and I mean, there’s one thing I want to go back to, that I just was, I don’t think I’ve ever heard you say in this way, is that, you know, that in order to stay safe, you needed to stay silent. And I, I can’t imagine that there aren’t people listening to this right now who are maybe thinking about those moments in their own life, right, of when, when that was the choice, and when that’s what needed to happen. And the other thing is to just highlight that, you know, when you can be clear about the emotions, the mechanics come with it. I mean, this is something, you know, I, this isn’t intended to be a commercial for Erik, but I’m speaking from personal experience, that what I appreciate, is that we- you and I both know through our work and, right, my background and training, is that there is- there are techniques, there are vocal techniques, there are physical techniques, and, and, but there’s not one way to do it. And, and one of the things that, you know, I’ve appreciated in our work, is just this idea of how do we unleash my full self, and how I resonate, and how I show up with, which sometimes I think is part of, I suspect, one of the many reasons why people can feel very afraid or fearful when they have to communicate, or when they have to present something maybe more formalized, is they, there’s a sense of there’s a right way and a wrong way. Right? And I know that, like, so many, right, you know, like the number one fears or top three fears people, you know, they say, oh, I’d rather have a, I don’t know, something terrible happen to me, I’d rather die than have to. And it’s like, well, I’ll probably not, but what from your experience, because you’ve worked with, you’ve worked with so many people, and so many ages and different stages of their life, what’s your sense of why there’s such a fear for so many in public speaking?

Erik Dominguez
I think it’s, it’s a combination of what we’re talking about here. First, it’s, it’s not just that there’s a right way and a wrong way, I see that a lot of people hesitate to present anything because they believe that there is a perfect way, right? And I have a working theory that it’s because we consume so many videos that are, you know, videos are great, they’re a wonderful medium, but they can be cut, edited, shifted, so that anytime I, you know, fumble, or whatever the case may be, that can be taken out. So when I consume all of these videos, and I see speakers flawlessly, I start to think, well, I have to be flawless. I absolutely have to be flawless. And then the second aspect is, again, that cut cookie cutter training. If public speaking and communications and presentational skills were not emotional first, then all you would need to do to create a powerful presentation is type it into Google, follow the outline, follow the five steps, and then you’re good to go. But that’s just not the case, right? When I’m working with one individual, their fears, inefficiencies, desires, joys are going to be very different from the other person. So my role is first to listen. Where are those fears, inefficiencies, joys? And that leads me into not just the mindset, but then the proper mechanics of the training. Because there, there is a space for mechanics, but only first after we address the emotions.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love so much of that, and that, you know, and that idea of striving for perfection, because failure is uncomfortable. In most situations, failure in front of people is a whole different ballgame. I, you know, when I think about my own experience, probably the thing that set me up the most to be willing to experiment on stage, it was my time in improv. Because, let me tell you, I did a lot of bad improv, a lot of bad improv. And there was a turning point. I won’t go into details of the scene, I’ll just say that I became a zombie mother and there was an axe involved and like we were halfway through the scene, we were at this festival, and we were bombing, like, we were just bombing. And we all just sort of had this agreement of we’re going down, we’re going down in a gloriously horrible way. And that there was a shift for me in that moment of like, you know what, I mean, that failure is gonna happen, and, you know, and I can, you know, fail gloriously and learn from it, and it’s also temporary. And, and so, you know, I, that, I mean, that’s as you were talking, was coming up for me. One of the things that I’m curious about is, I don’t know that we’ve talked about this, but, you know, when you think about that idea of needing to be perfect, needing to be flawless, I think that sometimes, whether that’s presenting, I don’t think I know, it’s you know, whether that’s presenting, or whether that’s having a difficult conversation, whether that’s being in a high stakes conversation, that what I hear from a lot of people in my work, so I don’t work from the presentations perspective like you do, is I want to be able to do that without having any discomfort. I want to be able to do that without having any adrenaline, and, so I’m curious to just get your thoughts on that, of what do you hear from people, and how are the ways that you help them think differently about that? Because I know for me, I call that my creative tension. Like, if I’m not a little like jazzed up or maybe have some nerves, then I’m not, I don’t care. Like, I haven’t done my work, you know, to be like, okay, this matters. So I’m curious to hear your thoughts on that.

Erik Dominguez
You nailed it right there. You know, one of the top questions I get is, How do I eliminate speaking nerves? And I always tell people, don’t. Like that’s, that’s not a thing. It shouldn’t be a thing. And you said it, you said it right there is, if I’m not nervous, then it doesn’t matter. Right? I’m not nervous ordering my coffee because, well, it does matter, but I, you know, there’s ways that I can get coffee otherwise. When I’m on stage, my mind is working overtime, because it’s receiving so many different stimulus, right? My own body, what am I going to say? What is that person doing? Why is that person on the phone? Why did they just leave? There’s just all sorts of different things happening. So I classify it as two different types of nerves. The, the first nerves are roller coaster nerves, and for audience members who hate roller coasters, just play along with me for a second, pretend that you love roller coasters. And roller coasters, when I’m in line, I always think like, oh, my gosh, this is going to be so terrifying, but it’s going to be awesome, but it’s also going to be scary, but it’s going to be awesome. And there’s that constant tension there. And I think you, you just spoke into that. That’s the cool feeling that we feel right before we go on stage. But the second type of nerves are what I call consequential or lying nerves. So if you’ve ever lied to someone, in any capacity in any form, there’s that pit in your stomach that you think, oh, if, if they find out, I’m going to be in big trouble. Those are the nerves that we get to minimize and eliminate. And those usually happen from a lot of different sources, primarily, lack of preparation, right? People usually feel the most nervous when they’re put on the spot, rightfully so.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s interesting to- no, keep talking. Yeah.

Erik Dominguez
Yeah, the, the trick is really to, you know, the phrase I use is transforming those fears into fuel, right, using that adrenaline that’s pumping through your body before you speak, and energizing yourself and the crowd with that.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I haven’t heard you, use- talk about the stressors in this way, but it’s interesting that you talk about it through the lens of lying, like, I’m gonna be found out. And as you were talking, you know, when I think about the times, when maybe I felt that on stage, or, or I know, someone felt that, it, it, it came from such a place of doubt, right? Almost like, oh, I’m- it’s like smoke and mirrors, you know, and to your point, it’s that preparation, not only for the speech, or the performance, or whatever you’re having to communicate, but also in connecting that you’re worthy to stand on that stage. You’re, you have something to share, or you, you’re- it was just interesting when you’re talking about like, oh, if they find out, and I was like,oh, that imposter -I don’t like to use the word imposter syndrome just because of its origins, but like, that doubt, that doubt that comes in. And so that’s an interesting connection. And I’m curious to, you know, when I, when I first- so obviously, I spent many, many years in theater, right? Very different than the work that I’m- similar but different. And I remember when my colleague Dr. Cris Wildermuth, when I was a student at Drake, was like, have you ever, you need to speak, have you ever thought about speaking? And the first thing out of my mouth was what would I have to say? And, you know, and being a young 20 something professional, saying like, I mean, what do I have to offer? And one of the things she offered me that was really powerful, was she said, you just need to be one step ahead of your audience. Like, you just need to know a little bit more. But I’m curious, you know, like, when you I would love to keep exploring, you know, some practices or ways for people who are listening who are like, oh, how do I, how do I start to transform that fear into fuel? Like, what are some things I can do? So what, you know, and because this is a show on conversations with conversations, what might be a conversation someone could have with themselves to start to make that shift?

Erik Dominguez
Well, the the root of that is, I’m probably saying something that somebody else has said in the- before. And to some extent, that’s true, right? We’re all having different conversations all around the world, and there’s a whole lot of similarities with some of the things, some of the topics that we’re addressing. But the first mindset in transforming that fear into fuel is, yes, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people who could speak about your topic the same way that you’re speaking about it, but no one has experienced your topic quite like you. And even if there are hundreds and thousands of people who speak on your topic, there are hundreds and thousands of people who haven’t heard it in your, from your unique perspective, who are dying to hear it from your perspective. I mean, we’ve all had messages, we’ve all heard messages, at least for myself, is I’ve heard the message, I heard the message, I heard the message, but it was the way that someone else said it, it was like that hundreth time that I heard it from that speaker in that way, and that story or whatever the case may be that finally, boom, hit. And so you, meaning general audience, you are that person to be able to speak truth and empowerment and value or humor into an audience. That’s all a lot of words to say you absolutely have something to say. You just have to be willing to step into, again, that discomfort of being courageous to say it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s, yep, I have nothing else to, I mean, that’s, yep. And I think, you know, I mean, when we’re talking through the lens of, you know, maybe more professional speaking, whether it’s for your career professionally, or you do it as part of your job, or it’s something that you’re passionate about, but I- so connect that, so let’s connect that dot to say, work, let’s connect that dot to communicating in relationships in families. And you know, because they’re they’re, yes, they’re- I love that point you make that even, we’re all talking about this, I mean we’re not talking about the same things, but it’s been said, right? It’s just, and knowing that, you know, I’ve had to work through and be okay with, like, I’m not for everyone, and that’s absolutely okay, because not everyone’s for me, and like, the more I can lean into who I am, the more I can lean in and just really own and be authentic, then the people who I need to connect with, right, will find me. So, so, so let’s like, let’s draw the line of, because the fear of speaking can look like fear of speaking up in a meeting, it can look like fear of advocating for yourself potentially, it could be fear of having a vulnerable conversation, of giving feedback. I mean, the list goes on, right? We talk, obviously, we talk a lot on the show about conflict avoidance because that’s what I’m so passionate about, but what does it look like for somebody who’s like, yeah, but I’m listening to this, and I don’t want to be a professional speaker. What does that look like for me?

Erik Dominguez
I go back to the phrase “how you do one thing is how you do everything.” And one of the things that I absolutely love about my work, is that even the individuals who aren’t, you know, who don’t have professional public speaking as their primary goal, when they learn the skills of what it takes to capture a full audience, those skills transfer right into speaking up into a meeting, giving a presentation at work, having that conversation, because, again, you know, the style that I really adopt is dealing with the emotions, right? If you, you know, if we’re just training people to stand up straight, that may or may not help in a presentation or in a one on one conversation. But if we’re training people to identify what’s really the fear here, beyond you know, they may or might not like my idea, or why, what would that impact, and digging deeper into what that conflict, that internal conflict is, you know, something I’ve learned a whole lot from you is, again, getting curious with yourself. Why, why am I afraid to just raise my hand and say, I don’t think that’s going to work out, or raise my hand and say, what if we went this direction? Uncovering that fear from the stage will also uncover that fear from the desk.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. You know, you, you, you use the word early on, like, confidence speaking. And I thought that was interesting how not like, speaking with confidence, you said, confident speak, like confidence speaking. And one of the things that in our world, in our work, and back in the day when I was doing a different type of coaching than I’m doing now, although there’s still elements of, you know, working with people and their sense of self, and building that confidence is, you know, there’s not a switch you can just flip to say, oh, I’m going to be more confident. Like the confidence is an outcome, right? We can’t can’t just sit there. And so, so I’m curious to get your thoughts on, you know, what are some of those, and even if you have like a specific story of, of moving, like, someone moving from maybe that lack of, like that doubt that, that lack of confidence, and what were the things that allowed them to become confident, because it’s not, because sometimes people will say, well, you just need to be more confident. Well, shoot, if I knew that, if I did, like, I would have done it by now. But like, but it’s an output, you know, going back to your point of like, how much joy people have, excuse me, how much joy people have when they finally, right, when they, when they nail the moment, when they tell the story, when they connect with the audience, when they step on the stage, whatever that might be. So what are some of the practices, or what are some of the things that you’ve seen help people shift from, from that, like, place of insecurity to really owning their confidence?

The first thing is grace. So we have a rule in our house, I have a ten year old and an eight year old, and one of our rules is we don’t say something is easy. And what I mean by that is sometimes, you know, my oldest will be playing with something and then my youngest will try. And he’ll be kind of failing at it. And my oldest will say, come on, that’s so easy. Well, it could be easy for you, but there was a time when it wasn’t easy. And that’s true for all elements, all skills, right. And confidence and talent are a weird thing, because in order to be confident, in order to be talented, you first have to be really unconfident and really untalented.

Okay, wait, wait, can we just pause there for a second? Because that is such a beautiful way of describing it, that I’ve never heard anyone saying it that way is like, literally to get to the point that you want to get to, you have to go through this muck right now. Right? Like it’s the whole, you know, what you don’t, you know, don’t know, you know, know, you know, what you don’t know, right? Like that whole step. But, but I’ve never heard anyone say it like that, that literally to build confidence, you have to go through a period of not knowing, like, not being confident, and not being talented. That is so brilliant. That’s so brilliant. Yeah.

Erik Dominguez
Yeah. And I mean, I, I put it through my own test of like, what are the tangible important skills in my life that I was able to just okay, now, like, I got it right away. I can’t think of any, right? Driving, riding a bike, reading, writing. And, you know, I talked about the first step is the grace. The second part is also the grace, because, you know, even as professional speakers, and you can speak to this, too, is there are times when I make mistakes, I blunder, and I bumble, and I go, oh no, my goodness, all the time, right? There’s never going to be a time when I’m going to have that perfection in any skill. So it’s grace, and it’s grace, and then it’s showing up every day. That’s it. It’s continuing to show up, that’s something that I’ve really learned in the last few years in all areas of my life, that as long as I’m showing up, especially on the days that I don’t want to show up, and the things that really, really matter to me, to the things where I want to build confidence in, then that confidence is going to come, and on the days where it just is so hard, and so frustrating, and feels like this is just not going to work out, those are actually the most beautiful days, because that’s what brings the joy. When you start to really feel that progress, you feel the sense of victory of oh, my goodness, a week ago, a year ago, ten years ago, I was there, and now I’m here. And that mindset then shifts because when you have those days, you can also see into the future of, okay, I know I’m here, but I’m going to get to the place where I want to go.

Sarah Noll Wilson
We, no, I, we just recorded a conversation, so I’m not sure when it’s going to air, with my colleague Teresa, and we were talking about learning and, and just about the real focus on, right, just practicing one step at a time, and I think that sometimes, especially as adults, that there are things we think we should just know how to do, that we should just know how to, you know, we should just know how to have a conversation, we should just know how to, even I think even, you know, speaking is like, well, I know it, you know it, or you don’t know it. And it’s like well, no, you- we all have to learn it. And I think that sometimes that’s a trap that I see people fall into. And it’s so interesting, because there are some things that I think people would expect that, yeah, it should just be showing up every day, it should be practicing, and I can, you know recognize that with the, the reason I brought up my conversation with Teresa, is we were talking about me learning the accordion. You know, when I first started, it was literally just two buttons back and forth on repeat, oompa, oompa, oompa to just start to get the muscle memory, thank god Nick was okay with the constant “oompa, oompa, oompa.” And so, like, you know, so we look at something like an instrument and go, well, of course, you need to do scales every day, of course you’re going to do the speed drills every day, of course you’re going to practice that song over and over and over again. But that doesn’t, we don’t always extend that same, right, like grace or practice and application to things like communication, whether it’s with ourselves or with other people. And that, that point you, you know, made of, of being able to- when you can start to see your progress, you, right, like, I mean, even just today,I had a lesson and I was like, yeah, this, I’m stuck on the song like this, I can’t go past this song. It’s too hard. And I said, but you know what’s cool, is this song I love playing now, that was the song I was stuck on before, so I know I’ll figure this out. Like, I know I’ll figure this out. And then I’ll figure out another song to get stuck to. And so I love that, you know, like how you’re, you’re, you’re breaking that down of just like, every single day, because especially when it comes to speaking, somebody once shared this, I don’t remember who to give credit to, but they said nothing beats feet on the stage.

Erik Dominguez
Exactly. Oh, that’s good. That is really, really good.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and it’s easy to look like if somebody were to see you speak, you’re like, oh, man, I can never be as good as him, or he’s just, it’s so easy to him, but not realizing that for 25 years, you’ve been showing up day after day.

Erik Dominguez
Yeah. And to that, as well is, fundamentals aren’t always fun, right, the repeating of the “bomp, bomp, bomp, bomp, bomp, bomp,” you know?

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s a great point.

Erik Dominguez
That’s not, that’s not engaging, right. And a lot of times when people come to me for presentational skills support, and I run them through some of those fundamental drills, right, and mixed with those emotional intelligence drills as well, is they’re not necessarily that you can’t quite see the full song by playing the two notes, but if you don’t play the two notes, you won’t get to the full song. And you know, if you- I think instrument is a great example, sports are a great example is, you know, when I’ll switch to sports for a second, during preseason, coaches usually run repetitive drills, it’s like, run here, do it again. Do it again. Do it again. Do it again. But then it becomes muscle memory.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right? Right.

Erik Dominguez
And that’s, that’s where where you really, your confidence really starts to build, when you’re no longer thinking about those fundamentals.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. What, you know, what’s, what’s one of your favorite stories of like, whether it’s with a student, not the favorite, I never act like asking that. But I imagine that you have been witness to a lot of really powerful transformations of, of, of people, not, not believing they have the power, not believing they’re worthy of it. And then to see that and I’m just curious if there’s anything that comes comes up for you, as I asked about that. I know, I’m asking this off the cuff, but.

Erik Dominguez
What I love is the journey. So the first thing that came to my mind was a former client of mine who I worked with years ago, and when I first met him, he was he was pretty scattered, to be honest with you. He was very scattered all over the place, very powerful presence, but didn’t know quite know how to hone that in to deliver an effective, an effective talk. And through a whole lot of work and a whole lot of conversations, he became one of the best speakers I’ve ever seen. He went on to go to law school and do some courtroom presentations and skills in that capacity. But then he recently made a switch to pursue his dream of being an improv actor in Chicago,

Sarah Noll Wilson
Love it.

Erik Dominguez
And I had a conversation with him, about a week ago, he called me, he’s like, hey, I just need, I just needed another pep talk, I need a good old fashioned Erik pep talk. And I really didn’t say much to him, he kind of talked himself through it, and I just regrounded him in the fact that, number one, you already have all the skills, you have the muscle memory, you’ve been through this training, you’ve performed in front of thousands of people. And number two, the most important thing you can do is be yourself, is, that’s what’s going to bring your audience to you. So often we get, you know, and rightfully so, we get, you know, muddled with I have to say this point and I have to say this point and this slide or this slide, and in his case, like what am I going to do? What am I going to say? That trust and confidence in yourself that you already have everything you need, that it’s not going to be perfect, it never can be, and that the outcome is always an opportunity to learn, that journey is what gets me through some of my speaking anxieties, but also continues to motivate me and inspire me. So that, that one, that conversation recently really reminded me why I do what I do.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, that everything’s an opportunity to learn. Sometimes it’s hard and painful, but is really important. One of the, one of the things that I’ve, I’ve appreciated working with you, is helping me identify, even if I knew it, leaning into, oh, no, this is where you shine. And, you know, and I remember one of the very first times you had seen me speak through the lens of observing, and we got done, you’re like, you got to get to the audience way faster, Sarah. And I remember feeling like, can I? Because every speaker that I see doesn’t necessarily engage with audiences like I do, you know? Or like, is that okay? I feel like I’ve had these moments, and even as somebody who I feel really confident, I’m established as a speaker, I feel really good about it, there’s still these rules that are in my head, there’s rules that are in our heads of like what it’s supposed to look like. And you know, and identifying that, like, no this, for you, like, we actually got to get you into the audience way faster. And that was such a gift you gave me, of a couple of things, because I’ve been through, I’ve been through a lot of public speaking trainings. I’ve, you know, trying to hone my craft, and honestly, I break most of the rules, you know, like, don’t leave the podium, like, oh, like, I’m sitting at a bar hanging out, you know, or, like, you gotta, I don’t know, you gotta do all these things. And so sometimes maybe I break all, some of the rules for the wrong reasons, but like, but there was so much that, from my experience, when I, when I had gone through those trainings, and this isn’t to disparage like, right, it’s just a difference. And it’s also what I needed. Or what I need now is different than like, going through it, but it’s, it felt suffocating, almost, it felt like, constrained. And I know for me, it’s kind of like don’t put baby in the corner. Like don’t, don’t put, like, don’t put parameters on Sarah, like, help me bring my message out in the best way. And so I’d love to explore, even just like, what is that? What, what does that look like for other people? Or what have you seen or experienced when it’s like, oh, like, to really lean into? Yeah, this is like this is, this is when you’re in the zone, and the sooner you can get there, the better it will be for you and for the audience.

Erik Dominguez
Yeah, I’m reminded of ninth grade, I learned the classic traditional five paragraph essay structure, right? And we had like these, you know, we had this very detailed outline, and you had to follow it exactly. And that had its place, right? Because I needed to learn, I as a writer needed to learn, here’s an attention getter, here’s the flow, here’s the three sub points, here’s basic argumentation. But we no longer write in the professional world, in a five paragraph essay format. I haven’t written a five paragraph essay in a very, very long time. And it’s the same with speaking, is that, yeah, those fundamental skills are needed, right? We still adapt to those, but what is unique about you, as a speaker, that you get to showcase? I love how you said it, don’t put baby in the corner. There, everyone’s going to have their own unique flair, their own unique personality. And I think a lot of times people get nervous because they try to follow the rules. And so I gotta stand up straight, I gotta have eighty-two, you know, slides on my PowerPoint, and I have to just be very stern and quiet or whatever the case may be. But when we start to tap into what- not just the fears of what makes you you, what lights you up about the way that you communicate? And I really want to speak into this because I’ve had a lot of people say, well, I’m not, I’m not extroverted. I’m not this charismatic, wild person. And my response is always, you don’t need to be at all. Well, what is it about you, what is it about your ideas, that you can share? How would you want to share this if there was no audience? How would you want to share this if there was nothing at stake? And once we start getting into that, that’s when I see people really, really shining. And that’s, it’s really important to me that people recognize that speaking and present presenting isn’t the typical motivational I’m gonna jump up and down and sweat. And, you know, that can be effective for some people, but it’s not everybody.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What a- I just want to, I want to repeat that question, because it’s such a powerful question, not just for what we’re talking about here, but I think can be applied to so many, which is, like, how would I share it, or how would I do it if there was nothing at stake? Yeah, my colleague Teresa, she, she has a phrase, Dr. Teresa Peterson, she says what will I regret least?

Erik Dominguez
Oh, wow.

Sarah Noll Wilson
In this situation, like, what would you regret least? And it’s like, what I regret least, like, I’m gonna give it my all, I’m gonna go full, I’m gonna go full in. And maybe it doesn’t work, but like, I gave it my all. Or will I regret least like playing it safe and playing small? And, and then that made me think of that. But I think that’s a really powerful question. Just like, so what would I do if there was nothing at stake? Because I mean, you know, one of the, one of the really beautiful opportunities we have, well, I mean, not just us, but the greatest gift somebody can give you is their time and attention. That’s the most precious materials that we have, is our time and attention. And it’s incredibly sacred, whether that’s a conversation with one person, whether that’s standing in a ballroom of a couple hundred. And, boy, don’t, don’t we owe it to everyone who’s a part of that, to just bring our full selves, right? Yeah, go ahead.

Erik Dominguez
I think a lot of people fear bringing their full selves in stages or in conversations, because what if I do bring my full self, and I’m still rejected? What if I bring my full personality, and people still don’t like me? And I go back to what you said earlier, is people are- kind of get shocked when I tell them like, yep, there will be a large percentage of the audience who will reject you. They just won’t appreciate the way that you are speaking, but there will also be a large percentage of the audience who will like your message, will absolutely land in that way. But we tend to, in my experience, we tend to focus on what’s not working, what’s, what’s what could go wrong, instead of what, what- it could go well.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s, uh, yeah, I mean, that’s our fun brains, right, it’s like, threat, threat, threat. Bwah! But because this is a theme that’s come up in multiple conversations, you know, we- gosh, who did we- Cris, Dr. Cris Wildermuth, we talked about it just, a gentleman I interviewed this morning, as we’re exploring the idea of men and intimacy. But this idea of like, masks, we wear our authenticity. And in hearing you talk about that, that idea of, oh, man, I mean, I got a pit in my stomach as you were saying, and what if I share my true self and I project it? I mean, who isn’t walking around with maybe a little bit of that fifth grader who got made fun of, right? Yeah, the kid, you know, that, to stay silent means to be safe. And, and so I’m curious, I mean, if we can go here, because, I mean, like, in your, in the work that you see, I could imagine that you’re working with a lot of people who may not even be tapped into their authentic self, because they’ve been showing up in ways of how they feel like they should, for whatever reason, so I’m just curious to open up this conversation with you, because it’s such a pattern that’s come in multiple dialogues as we’re exploring this.

Erik Dominguez
Yeah. I saw that missing in my coaching toolbox, to be honest with you. About three or four years ago I realized that there was a level of fear and a level of resistance that I was coming up against when I was working with people that I wasn’t yet trained to really speak into, into those fears, and into those anxieties. And so, for the last two and a half, three years, I’ve gone through a series of emotional intelligence trainings to be able to have those tools to ask the right questions, to uncover the authentic self, because you’re absolutely right, that most people don’t, don’t really know what would light them up. And I use this term often and people kind of give me a weird look, but public speaking training is transformational training, because public speaking is knowing yourself, knowing your message, and having the courage to share that message. That’s really simple, but it’s not easy at all. So it, it, it takes-

Sarah Noll Wilson
Can you say that again, because like I just want to give it space. It’s knowing yourself-

Erik Dominguez
It’s knowing yourself, knowing your message, and having the courage to share that message. That’s public speaking.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, that’s just livin’.

Erik Dominguez
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it’s, it’s scary, right? I know that that through my own emotional intelligence work, through my own therapy, through my own self exploration, I didn’t want to see what I saw in uncovering my authentic self. That’s why I hid it, I didn’t want to recognize that I had, you know, this flaw or this flaw. And the more I addressed it, the more my authentic self came out.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s, I mean, it’s- no, keep talking. I love this.

Erik Dominguez
I’m a much better speaker now than I was years ago,because of the deep emotional work that I’ve done for myself, with myself, through the support of others.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. It’s the, I think it’s why everyone knows, they know what self awareness is, but not, you know, so very few people are regularly practicing it, or there’s an opportunity for more. And, you know, and it’s one of the things I always think about what self awareness, is that, like, we need the courage to ask the question, and we need the courage to listen to the answers. And, and it’s hard, it’s hard when you’re faced with, oh, there’s some strong beliefs I have about myself, or there’s some strong beliefs I have about other people that aren’t productive, right, or shadow intentions, or whatever you might call them. And, and, again, I think this is why, I mean, I, I’m trying to catch myself, and I think, so this is me, you know, working through my own-

Erik Dominguez
I gotcha, gotcha.

Sarah Noll Wilson
-owning, like, you know, language, is, it’s one of the reasons why I’ve really enjoyed us working together, is because you aren’t, you don’t approach your work through a transactional lens, or a technical lens. It is very transformative. And, and that, that that idea of, you know, you recognizing that, when, because you’ve been on your journey to show up as your true self, you’re even more powerful, right? It’s even more resonant, because you’re even- your light is even brighter, and boy does that apply to every part of our lives. Because I’ve seen that in my work, whether that’s me on stage, whether that’s me with my husband, whether that’s me with my nieces and nephews, my niblings, whether that’s the person at Target, you know, who’s checking me out. And I’m like, how are you doing really? Right? Because like, and there’s so, there’s such a, yeah, it’s just, it’s, again, I just go back to it’s such, it’s like, we’re all worthy of the investment-

Erik Dominguez
Oh, yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
-you know, to be seen and to be heard, and I love that language, and to, to have the courage to share your message is so powerful, but like you said, it’s simple, not easy.

Erik Dominguez
You know, very, yeah, very simple, absolutely. Not easy, absolutely not easy. And, you know, again, looking at ourselves can be very, very difficult, and getting feedback can also be-

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, yeah. Can we talk? Okay, let’s okay, because I feel like we, I mean, we could definitely approach this conversation like, okay, what are how do we prepare? What are the techniques we can do? And we can talk about that, but let’s, I’m really glad you brought up feedback, because again, our brains are wired for it, we’ll focus, it will just focus on the two people, or the twenty, or whatever it is, right, that you’re just like, I was rejected by them all. There are times when I, you know, because as speakers, we get feedback all the time. And it’s, it’s interesting. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had a meeting planner or a client, when I asked her, I said, no, I want it all, I want the comments, are like, oh, you sure? Like, we can remove. I was like, why would you remove the hard stuff? That’s like, that’s really valuable for me, whether it’s, whether I keep it or not, it’s valuable for me. And they’re like, oh, we just work with a lot of speakers who don’t want that. And I was like, wait, what? Like, what?

Erik Dominguez
Really?

Sarah Noll Wilson
I had three different people go like, do you want it? I mean, most of the people we work with are just like, nah, I mean, unless it’s really good, I don’t want it.

Erik Dominguez
Wow, that’s, that’s unfortunate. That’s really, really unfortunate.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right.

Erik Dominguez
Because that’s, you know, especially the, the you know, what we would consider negative feedback. Those are, number one, areas of growth and patterns, right? There’s always going to be an outlier, there’s always going to be someone who says, you know, I didn’t like X, Y, and Z. And it’s not that, you know, when I get that, it’s not that I ignore it, but I look for a pattern. If five people, if ten people say, I don’t appreciate X, Y, and Z, great, then that’s my opportunity to shift and get better. That’s really surprising that there are people who won’t receive, speakers that won’t receive

Sarah Noll Wilson
They just, yeah.

Erik Dominguez
That puts you in a bubble,

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right.

Erik Dominguez
It totally puts you in a bubble. And it, this is the other element, of it is, what that tells me is that, well, let me backtrack a little bit. There’s always a price to pay when a speech is given, right? The performer can pay the price, pay the price of admission of, you know, spending time in rehearsal, feeling uncomfortable, being courageous, or the audience pays the price. And when we’re not receiving that powerful feedback that we consider negative, we’re making it about us. But speaking is a gift, right? Like, it’s literally, here’s my gift to you all. Some of you will love it, some of you won’t like it, some of you will throw it on the trash on the way out. All of that is okay, I’m still gonna give you my gift, because it’s for you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s the- whenever people are like, what’s your advice, and I go, just remember it’s not about you. So it’s not, it’s like, what can I do to make this a safe space for you? What can I do to serve you? How can I show up in a way that will be most meaningful for you? And, you know, and going back to the feedback, you know, I know, for me, there are times when it stings, and I’m human, and, and, you know, and Nick does a really good job of “And don’t forget that there’s 299 other people who said amazing things,” because our, again, our brain is just wired to focus on that threat, we’re more- brain is more likely to protect us from pain than it is to lean into pleasure. And so sometimes you have to just sit with that and process that. And, and it’s not, I mean, even doing it all these years, I’m sure there are still times where, like, whoo, well, that one that one, okay. Clearly wasn’t for them. Clearly, that was, that fell below the belt, but that’s all right. Like, that’s their opinion, and that’s their experience. And, you know, but looking looking for those patterns of, are there things I’m doing that I’m being less effective in my, in my impact?

Erik Dominguez
Right. I would also add to that, that when we’re receiving that form of feedback, the one that stings to me the most are usually the ones that I’ve already created in my head. Right? So that, you know, like, oh, I think I’m doing this too quickly, or too slowly, or I, I don’t think I landed this point. And when I get that feedback, that for me, is the one that stings myself, because like, I know it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I know it! It’s totally true. Like, she’s great. She just talks too fast. I know, I know, I got it.

Erik Dominguez
Exactly.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And now I’m gonna speed up every time I talked about it, because that’s what- I knew it, crap. I knew it was too long, or too short, or too whatever.

Erik Dominguez
Yeah. And, so, for me, when I get that feedback, it’s, again, it stinks. But then it’s a constant reminder, okay, great, then I get to change that content, run that drill. Keep working on it, we’re always having something to work on.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I wonder, like, you know, as people are pushing against perfection, right, as you as you push against that, I mean, you and I’ve talked about this, right, in the process of writing the book, one of the most vulnerable things for me was that the book is permanent. And a bad presentation is temporary, like, a bad book is permanent, and bad presentation is temporary. And one of the things that I try to anchor myself in, but sometimes I’m not effective, and as you know, you’ve helped me through some, some difficult moments of, I don’t know what happened and I just need to process this. I, if I did everything that I could to try to show up as my best, to do my best, I need to be okay that sometimes, like, I’m still gonna mess up, right, or whatever. But it’s like, you know, for me, for me, I always feel the worst when I knew I didn’t prepare as much as I should have, where it’s like, or maybe, or maybe the situation didn’t allow for it. But when it’s like, when I had a choice and I, and it just wasn’t in my bones, right? The content wasn’t in my bones. I didn’t, I didn’t, you know, I, not that I never phone it in, because it’s live and you’re in communion, but, right, there are times where you just can go, I probably needed to give that more space and time than I did. Like, that’s always, that’s, that’s, that’s when it’s, when I probably struggle the most, is because it was something within my control, but also just realizing that even if even if I do everything, and it’s still not, like at least I can hold on to the fact that I gave everything I could give. And now I’m going to learn and figure out how to keep tweaking, and adjusting, or showing up differently, or whatever that might look like. But that’s, that, I mean, it’s challenging. Those, I mean, it’s part of the rollercoaster, right, this is gonna suck. And this can be really amazing, and it might suck, and it might be really amazing all at the same time.

Erik Dominguez
Yeah. And that preparation. Again, you don’t know what you don’t know. So there’s times when I’ve spoken, when I’ve shown up, and there’s been three or four curveballs, and I start to get that anxiety. And I start to feel like I’m not serving correctly. And, again, I go back to exactly what you said. Did you know, did you know this ahead of time? I didn’t. There’s, there’s no way for me to actually prepare for it. But now that I know that this could happen, I can adjust to that. And, even when a talk doesn’t go well, and even when I feel like there’s something that I could have landed better, again, you nailed it. Did I rehearse? Did I prepare? Did I think through? Did I set myself up for the greatest success, not just for me, but for the audience? And if I did, then everything else that might have gone wrong, it’s a great learning opportunity. And I’m going to continue to grow- you know, going back to the accordion, right? There’s gonna be times where you’re gonna mess up a few notes, but you’re, you’re still playing the song.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And not, and not rehearsing to the point of seeking perfection. That’s the thing, right? I mean, it’s like, it’s not, it’s not obsessive. It’s, you know, for me, that’s, the language I use is “I want it in my bones,” like, I want to, I want to know, my, my outline, my milestone, I also know that 99% of the time, we’re going to not cover exactly what I, especially if it’s- a tr- Nick and I, we joked after trainings and stuff, he was like, you need to account for like, 30% just Sarah time, where you’re learning, and you’re gonna, like, someone’s gonna ask a question, and then you’re gonna go off on a tangent, or you’re gonna do all of this. And, you know, so we’re trying to be better about about that. But, yeah, but just to reiterate like, that, that practice isn’t to be perfect. Because that, I mean just from a technique perspective, you know, one of the things, you know, and again, I’m speaking through my experiences, as you know, that I don’t want to be totally scripted. That’s not, that’s not me. But there are moments that are served better when we can be really clear about the moments, and you know, one of the, one of the practices that’s been so helpful for me, is that idea of buoys that you introduced me to, like, what are my buoys that I’m getting to? So like, okay, you got about 10 minutes to talk about here, but now you’re going to land this quote, now you’re going to land this story. Now you’re going to do this. And, and again, I think that we could, we could do a whole show on just like technical stuff, I think it’s important. I hope it’s important for people to hear, to have us talk about like, yeah, we still struggle with this, and yeah we’re still, you know, figuring out, well, how do we do it in a way that serves like, that, that can best bring forward our strengths? And, and most importantly, serve the audience?

Erik Dominguez
Yeah, absolutely. And that it’s continuing to refine your craft, continuing to refine the art of speaking, and, yeah, we could, we could spend hours and hours talking about the mechanics and strategies. But if the mindset isn’t that I’m here to serve, and I’m here to serve as my authentic self, and the mistakes are going to be what they are, actually, the mistakes are usually what makes connection even more powerful.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay. Yes. Can we, like, can we just pause for a second, because, yeah, so, alright, so I’ll bring in like my theater background, then I want to hear your speech background, right? What did they, what did they call it? A Chekhov’s gun, right? Is like a prop that comes on but doesn’t get used, right? Kind of like, and the audience starts to get like, whoa, I might not be using the right, Nick will send me a text if I’m, but it’s like you watch a show, somebody dropped something, and you know that that’s not part of it, and no one picks it up, and no one, and you’re just like, oh, it broke the fourth, like, it broke the fantasy, it broke the reality of like, this didn’t happen. And, and it kind of goes back to you know, the storytelling about improv. Like, if we’re gonna fail, we’re just gonna fail big. And I, I’ve learned, whether it’s virtual, whether it’s the, like, work we do on stage, is the moments when things don’t go well, how I show up in that moment is going to give the release to the audience of how they can show up in that moment, because there are times, even just yesterday I was in a, I was in a session, and I had just like a, a sharp muscle pain that kind of took my breath away. I’ve had it before, it’s either heartburn from I don’t know, B-Bops I’ve been eating, or a muscle, but I’ve had it before, but it was enough to kind of catch my breath. And young Sarah would have been like, oh shit what, what is happening, and oh, did they notice, and all of this, like, but now I’m just like, hey, because we were talking about amygdala, full disclosure, my amygdala’s triggering because I just had a really sharp pain, so just give me a moment. And I was like, but I’ll be okay. I took a breath, right, and then I made a joke about it. I’m like, oh, I must have been playing my Oculus too much, right? And then it released it. But, but, but how we show up with the flubs, how we show up with the technical stuff that doesn’t work, like us trying to get to this recording sends a message to the audience of how they can show up with us has been my experience, so I’d love to hear your perspective.

Erik Dominguez
Yeah, we’re human- human beings are messy. And we’re allowed to be messy. My experience, my, my initial training in high school and collegiate Speech and Debate was, was perfection, you had 10 minutes to impress a judge, and competition, especially in college, was super zone tight. So if you had one little meh, boom, you’re getting last place. And so a lot of the feedback that I got initially after I graduated college, and after I got left the Speech and Debate world, is that I was showing up inauthentic because I was showing up completely- whoops, Sarah, I just hit my computer, what I was- what perfect timing.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. I love that that just happened right as we were-

Erik Dominguez
I was showing up like a commercial, like, Hi, I’m Erik Dominguez, and I’m here to tell you three what- like that, that didn’t land with people, people feel that resistance of perfection, and so-

Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, but whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, can you say that again? Resistance to perfection? Yeah, say more about that. That’s, I’ve never heard that phrase.

Erik Dominguez
It, well, I’m gonna flip it for what you just said is, is what you just said, is that when you had that pain, it gave permission to the audience to show up that way, it was actually an example of how they can show up in their meetings, in their presentations. But when we see something that is too perfect, there’s something about it that’s like, I don’t know, I don’t know, there’s- what’s underneath all of that. And so, yet, like you, there are moments in my talks that I do rehearse, and I do memorize, and I do pause to create that experience, but I’m okay with whatever mistakes that I tend to make. You know, I was doing a keynote about a month ago, and the slide just completely like, everything shut off. Like, I was going to my next slide, it was a quotation that I needed to read off a stage, and it just. So, like you I made a joke, I said, we’re not going to talk about that right now, we’ll actually move this way. And it’s okay, because I truly, truly believe and I’ve learned this from you, is that people are so graceful when you are graceful to yourself and to others. And when you’re curious with yourself and you sre with others, there’s that safe space to just be like, okay, and in the long, you know, scheme of things, fumbling a word, a slide, you know, messing up, a sharp pain, that’s not going to break, make or break someone’s experience of what you’re teaching them. They’re not going to remember the, the weird pain, or the slide, or whatever, they’re going to remember how did you respond to that, and how did you respond to them in that moment? Well-

Sarah Noll Wilson
Man, Erik.

Erik Dominguez
-that’s, that’s why I love being a speaker, because you can connect with, you know, an audience, even of thousandsof people. So much fun.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. In such, and such intimate ways. And, yeah, that, it’s, it’s this beautiful opportunity to, to role model, right, and to show what’s possible, and, and, yeah, that it’s not it’s not that it happened. It’s how did you show up to it? Like, how did you respond to it? And then how did you show up for the audience? That’s, I, that’s really lovely. I’m thinking about yesterday, too, because I had a video that was gonna play, audio worked fine in check. worked fine in check.

Erik Dominguez
Yep.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Did not play. And then Teresa looks over, she’s said, just play the video, you know it, and so then I’m just like, I mouthed over it because it’s one of our Manager Minutes. And people were laughing and I was like, okay, okay, okay, like, let’s like- but oh, man. There’s so much expectation to get it right, or to be a certain way. And, and, again, what what a privilege it is when you’re in front of anyone, whether it’s a manager talking to a team member, whether it’s a child talking to your parent, whether, you know, I mean, we all have opportunities to impact, and, you know, to hopefully show up in a way that’s aligned with ourselves and our values, but also to, to impact other people. And, and, I mean, I feel like a big theme of our conversation today is when we are able to be true to ourselves, we give the space for someone to be true for themselves, like, to themselves, whatever that may be, and whatever that may look like.

Erik Dominguez
Yeah, absolutely. Permission. Permission. When we’re speaking audience of a thousand, or audience of one, we are the permission for our audience to show up the same way.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s a really beautiful way for us to wrap up, we could obviously keep talking,

Erik Dominguez
Yeah. Yeah, we could.

Sarah Noll Wilson
We will, we’ll have you back sometime. Erik, I’ll ask you the question that we ask everyone, is, what, what is the conversation you’ve had with yourself, or someone else that transformed you? And you share it as much or as little as you want.

Erik Dominguez
Absolutely. It’s a question that was posed to me about two or three years ago, that I often pose to others, is are you willing to give up who you are, to become the person you want to be? And what that means to me is, are you willing- am I willing- am I willing to let go of my old habits, my old securities, my old routines, so that I can achieve my goals? And the answer is always yes, with a whole lot of discomfort. Knowing that when I say yes, it’s going to be uncomfortable, and it’s going to be worth it. And it’s the same when I asked that of my clients is, are you willing to let this go? Are you willing to confront this? Are you willing to set this free, however the context is, so that you can get to that confidence, that power, that joy?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Beautiful. Erik, you’re a treat.

Erik Dominguez
You are, too.

Sarah Noll Wilson
But before I say goodbye, I mean, I just feel like we just had a chat and people just get to, you know, we could talk about this stuff all the time.

Erik Dominguez
For ever, yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
People who are listening to this, what’s the, you know, who are thinking, hmm, I might be interested in working with him for myself, or maybe this is some, somebody we can bring into our team, or, you know, whatever it might look like, what’s the best way for people to connect with you?

Erik Dominguez
Best way is through my website, which is Speak Up Stories dot com, and then I’m also on all of the social media platforms, Erik J. Dominguez.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Perfect.

Erik Dominguez
So find me, connect with me, would love to chat.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Awesome. And we’ll be sure to add those to the show notes. Erik, thank you so much for being you-

Erik Dominguez
Thank you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you for changing your shirt, thank you- no, in all, all seriousness, I’m so grateful that we were able to have this conversation. And I’m, I’m just so grateful to, you know, when you’ve been doing something as long as I’ve been speaking, it’s, I know I don’t have it all figured out by, any means, but it’s so nice to have somebody walking alongside me, and who at times can walk out in front of me. And so just thank you, my friend, for all the impact that you’ve had on me, and, and the ripple effect you have on the people we get to work with. So thank you.

Erik Dominguez
Thank you. And likewise, just such an honor to be shoulder to shoulder with you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been Erik Dominguez, and a few take- one, one of the things that I’m going to hold on to and chew on, was that, that point we were exploring, which was that resistance to perfection. I’ve never heard that phrased in that way, and I know that I felt that, and it’s interesting, something for me to think about as we’re working with our audiences. So thank you all for joining us. We want to hear from you, and let us know what resonated, what you’re thinking, doing, being different as a result of our time together. You can reach out to us at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com, we would really love to hear from you. Or you can find me on social media, where my DMs are always open. If you’d like to find out more about our work, and how we can help you and your team have conversations that matter, check us out at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com, you can also pick up a copy of my latest book, “Don’t Feed the Elephants!” wherever books are sold. And if you would like to support the show, there’s two ways you can do that. Consider becoming a patron, visit patreon dot com slash Conversations on Conversations, where not only your financial support will continue to sustain this podcast, you’ll get access to some pretty great additional information. And if you haven’t already, please make sure that you subscribe, and rate, and review the show ,you can do this on iTunes, Spotify, other podcast platforms, this helps us get the word out and continue to bring on amazing guests like Erik. Always love to our incredible team who makes this podcast possible, to our producer, Nick Wilson, our sound editor, Drew Noll, transcriptionist, Olivia Reinert, and marketing consultant Kaitlyn Summitt-Nelson, and the rest of the SNoWco crew. And a final thanks to Erik Dominguez with Speak Up Stories. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you for listening, and remember that when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and with others, we can change the world. So take care of everyone, please make sure that you rest, and rehydrate ,and we’ll see you again soon. Bye.

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