Episode 040: A Conversation on Burnout in HR with Julie Turney

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Julie Turney as they explore some of the unique challenges facing today’s HR professionals.

About Our Guest

Julie Turney is a heart-centric people experience architect with over 16 years of experience in HR.

She is the brainchild of HR@Heart Consulting Inc., a coaching firm she describes as the “HR Safe Space.” Julie created her firm as part of her healing process through her second bout of HR burnout.

Today, Julie supports fellow HR professionals from around the globe struggling with burnout, compassion fatigue, and frustration in their HR careers to get back on track and regain the lost joy in their HR careers.

Julie is also a TEDx & Public Speaker, the Author of the book “Confessions of an HR Pro: Stories of Defeat and Triumph,” Host of the HR Sound Off Podcast Show, and Lead Organizer of Disrupt HR Caribbean for Barbados, Jamaica & Trinidad.

Julie is on a mission to raise awareness around poor mental health in HR while demystifying the many misconceptions people have about our beloved profession and its people.

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and with each other. I am your host Sarah Noll Wilson and joining me this week is Julie Turney. Let me tell you a little bit about her before you get to meet her and bask in her energy and joy and wisdom. So here’s a little bit about Julie Turney. She is a heart centric people experience architect with over 16 years of experience in the HR profession. She is the brainchild of HR@Heart Consulting Incorporated a coaching firm she describes as the HR safe space which I love. Julie created her firm as part of her own healing process through her second bout of HR burnout. Today, Julie supports fellow HR professionals from around the globe who are struggling with burnout, compassion fatigue, and frustration in their HR careers to help them get back on track and regain the joy they lost in their HR career. Also fun fact, she’s also a TEDx and a public speaker. She’s the author of Confessions of an HR Pro, Stories of Defeat and Triumph. She is the host of the HR Soundoff podcast show and lead organizer of Disrupt HR Caribbean for Barbados, Jamaica and Trinidad. She is on a mission to raise awareness around poor mental health in HR while demystifying the many misconceptions people have about our beloved profession and the people in it. Julie, hi.

Julie Turney
Hi!

Sarah Noll Wilson
Welcome. Welcome to the show, sunshine.

Julie Turney
Thank you for having me, Sarah. Such a pleasure to be here.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m so excited to have you. But before we just have a moment of gushing together, what else would you like our audience to know about you?

Julie Turney
I am a mom. I have three beautiful children, two boys, one girl. I still think they’re my babies, but they’re not. You know, they’re big people now. They’re 25, 20 and 18 but they’re still my babies.

Sarah Noll Wilson
They’ll always be your babies.

Julie Turney
I guess if you count my husband and I’m a mom of four. (laughs) And I am a huge Marvel fan. I love jazz music and I’m a foodie.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, wait, did I – no I did know you’re a big Marvels fan. What’s your favorite movie?

Julie Turney
I am a Rocket fan. I’m a huge fan of Guardians of the Galaxy.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Got it.

Julie Turney
Yeah. So Rocket and Captain Marvel.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Good stuff. I love it. (laughter) I love it so much. Well, I’m so so excited. It’s been long overdue to have you on our show to connect and have a conversation about the very thing you’re so passionate about. And just you know, I want to give a heads up to folks that while we will be talking about some of the challenges that exist and certainly have because of the last three years in HR, we also want you to apply this to your own perhaps industry, especially if you are in a service industry, right. We’re seeing similar burnouts in the medical profession. We’re seeing it even like in pharmacy, I have some pharmaceutical clients that are really struggling with a level of burnout, that’s different. But, Julie, talk to us about your journey. What brought you to this point of being so passionate about wanting to support those who are in the HR profession, not just from a technical training perspective, but from the space for them to be, you know, seen, taken care of and healed.

Julie Turney
Thank you for asking that Sarah. I started my journey in HR 16 years ago, and I when I started to climb the corporate ladder, and get more senior roles the more – the closer you get to people issues. I started asking that question like, there’s gotta to be HR for HR somewhere, because like, all this stuff that we go through is just crazy. And if you have no one to sound it out with – you can’t sound it out with fellow, you know, leaders in your organization, because a lot of times the conversations are about them, right? It’s hard to talk about changes that are happening in the organization. You can’t just talk about those things to everyday employees. So, a lot of times you’re keeping stuff to yourself, and sometimes it’s heavy, it’s hard. And so, so many times I’ve asked like, where is HR for HR? Being a sole HR practitioner in an organization, so you’ve got no leadership, no HR leadership, you’ve got no HR associates to support you. So a lot of times sometimes you think like you’re faking it, like how am I creating these structures? How am I creating these processes and procedures? Am I really doing the best thing for employees? And so, as I’ve navigated my HR career, I’ve just realized that it’s not something you can do alone at all you need, you need a community, you need a tribe. So my first quest was to find the tribe. And in finding my tribe, I realized that, you know, a lot of us were going through very common challenges. And I started, you know, supporting my fellow, my fellow tribe at that time. And they – you know, people would say to me, you know, Julie are really good at this. Have you ever thought about like, actually coaching HR professionals, because they think you’d be really good at it. And so I tested beta tested a couple of, you know, products on my tribe, and they love them. And so six years ago, I started HR@Heart without calling it HR at heart. And then the pandemic came, and I lost my job. And I started to think about, well, what do we do next? But the answer was right in front of me, because I had already started to build community, started to, you know, share content and experiences around the challenges that we face as HR and started to have those conversations. I started my podcast and I was like, maybe I could make this a business out of this and do this full time. Because it brought me great joy to be able to support people who really needed the support in various organizations instead of just one organization. And I realized, you know, that what I had inside of me was not just for one organization. And it wasn’t just for employees, as in, you know, our employees in our organization. But if I could really help other HR people feel safe, and give them the resources and tools that they needed in a way that would help them perform their jobs effectively, then, that’s a win win, right? And so I started HR@Heart three years ago, we’re going into year four now. And I’ve been flying solo for the last almost four years, and I’m loving every minute of it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Congratulations. I mean, that’s no – starting a business under normal circumstances is challenging. Starting a business during a pandemic. (laughs)

Julie Turney
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s a whole, it’s a whole ‘nother beast. So I commend you, you know, it’s –

Julie Turney
Thank you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I feel like that needs to be celebrated. Most small businesses don’t last towards three years. And so first, that is a testament to you, your commitment, and also the impact that you make.

Julie Turney
Thank you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, as you were, as you were talking, there was a couple of things that that you brought up that resonated with me in a personal way that I hadn’t thought about since I was in my, my HR days, which is the fact that you are, again, depending on your role, but as you’re talking about when you’re especially when you’re the team of one or part of a small team, you know stuff, you have access to things, you are having to compartmentalize, you are having to both be the messenger and the soother, if you will, right. You are, you know, and we all know that the messenger doesn’t always get received well, when there are changes and policy changes. So what you know, when you look at, it’s an interesting perspective you have of being in the space and thinking about it before the pandemic. And then obviously, things got very accelerated. And, you know, we witnessed firsthand the impact that the pandemic had on HR. What, what did you see from your perspective shift? From a standpoint of whether it was needs or what was being asked of HR in a different way? Like what what was what were the shifts you saw in our, in our colleagues?

Julie Turney
Complete fear. So (exhales) we’ve always been in a space of – we’ve had legislation to go by, we’ve had various policies to go by. We’ve had contingency plans to go by. But the pandemic put us in a state of, what is going on? Like, what do we do? And for many of us, for a lot of the colleagues that I spoke to, that I shared space with, they were just completely freaked out about how to move their organizations forward. And leaders were asking us, you know, what do we do next? What is – we have a contingency plan, but we weren’t prepared for this? How do we get people home? How does that impact the way we pay people? How does that impact if we have to lay off people because there are certain jobs that can only be done on site? How do we keep people engaged while we have them at home? And for the people that we’ve had to lay off? How do we still keep them warm? So that when we’re ready to return to work, that we can engage those people? How do we just check in and see if our people are okay? How do we show that we trust our people to do their jobs effectively, despite all the stuff that’s happening around them, and all of these questions are swirling around, in, you know, everyone’s heads. And at that point, I, one of the groups that I was in, HR Rebels created by Tracy Spaunanburg, and Michelle Strasburger, I am forever indebted to Tracy for inviting me into that circle, because I learned so much about a lot of the struggles that we were having. And remember, it wasn’t just the pandemic, right, we were dealing with the effects of the death of George Floyd. And a lot of the issues that were coming up around inclusion in the workplace, and how do we have conversations around these things? So there were a lot, we keep talking about the pandemic, as if it was the only thing that happened to us, right. But us as HR people it wasn’t the only thing, right? We were dealing with economic downturns, we were dealing with social unrest, political unrest, and on top of that, upon a global pandemic, and so, you know, HR people were in chaos mentally, emotionally. People were running on complete adrenaline, and I don’t think many people slowed down on or started to the slowdown process, until this year, last year, late last year into this year. So that’s what we’ve been dealing with.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. –

Julie Turney
How crazy.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And then depending on where you live, like, potentially add some severe weather storms on top of that, or like some, you know, severe weather, –

Julie Turney
Exactly, extreme weather.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Or, you know, and then just like, okay, well, how do we, how do we navigate, navigate all of this, and I, you know, one of the things that I definitely experienced when I was in HR is that it always felt like whether it was self imposed, it was largely self imposed, that the expectations were, we were going to work sort of harder and longer, right, we weren’t always going to take care of ourselves. And there was a real cost to that. And we see that in our clients, right, we have the fortune to partner with some really incredible HR folks. And I’m curious, like, from your experience, how pervasive is that? So on one hand, you have the external challenges that they’re having to face and to manage. And then sometimes I think we have some internal beliefs and limitations that might get in the way that then only exacerbate the situation. So what, you know, like what comes up for you, as I share that?

Julie Turney
Oh, that’s interesting. Tell me a bit more about that, like, –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, yeah, are you turning the tables on me?

Julie Turney
(laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
(chuckles) I, you know, the sense, the sense was always we were evaluated much more strongly, strictly. The expectations, like from our performance review from – I mean, we took care of ourselves, but there was just this expectation of, if the boat is rocking, we’re the ones who have to keep people calm and get them to where they need to go. And, and sometimes that was a real cost. You know, I was fortunate to be in a situation where I had colleagues that I could reflect on or like, share with and talk. But there, at least in this company, in this culture, there was sort of an expectation that we needed to show up differently. With more poise, more, having our shit together. (laughs)

Julie Turney
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, like, so I can’t imagine – and I, I’m just curious, like, is that something you experienced in other individuals you worked with?

Julie Turney
Oh yeah. Definitely having to keep it all together, I find that totally relatable because you have to be, – there’s that inner feeling that says I have to be strong for everyone. out, even though I may be having an internal conflict with myself, I can’t let other people see that. Because HR is supposed to be strong, right? We’re not supposed to let people see how fragile we are in this particular moment. And then there’s the other side of that, which is, you know, we have to have all the answers. And we’re being looked at as though, if you don’t have the answers then why are you here? What is your purpose? We don’t want anyone to ever ask us that, so we have to do the research, do the homework, you have to find people that could help us. And because most of the people that I worked with, talked to, at that time were similar to me, departments of one or department of two, then you know, it just felt like there was this huge responsibility that was laid upon you that made you feel like you were the oldest child who lost our parents. Because you now have to carry the other children through this turmoil, right? You’ve got to raise everybody else. And I remember one day, looking at, I can’t remember what I posted on LinkedIn. But there was something that I posted and I just remember reading the comments. And there was one comment, or two that started to make me literally cry, which was, one lady said, you know, employees look at me, and they say, you know, you have to be strong for us. I can’t imagine if you’re falling apart, I don’t even want to know, because we need you to be strong for us. And then there was another comment from another lady and she was saying, you know, I totally related to this post, because I just feel like I know that I’m shattered on the inside, but I can’t show it. And those two comments in particular, on that day, I must have been extremely vulnerable. But I remember crying, I remember saying, oh, my goodness, this is why I’m here. Because it just broke my heart to see, to read, you know, that this is this is how we feel, generally as a profession. No matter what we’re going through, no matter the challenges, no matter the discomfort. We can’t show it. We can’t be ourselves. That’s, that’s harsh, and sad, and unfortunate, and heartbreaking. And all of those things. For me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That analogy of it’s like being the oldest child, and now suddenly, you have to step up. And, you know, and it’s in, it’s tricky, depending on the organization and the relationship people have with HR, you know. We know that HR, right, wrong otherwise isn’t always viewed as a support, a safety. Looking out for the interest of the company, which sometimes is true, and – or as you know, they’re only there to hire and fire people, right. Hire and fire.

Julie Turney
We’re the hiring squad or we are the firing squad.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Unless someone’s struggling. And so often, I think that that’s like, I think any when I think of any of those support departments, IT, finance, right, that if things are moving well, you don’t usually hear. And so then that means you’re not getting, you know, support, appreciation, reinforcements for the good stuff you’re doing, like, oh, yeah, the fact that you’ve been paid on time. That is because somebody is auditing and managing and inputting and checking and doing all of that –

Julie Turney
The wheels are turning in the background.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And, you know, and then your point about not only the having to carry the burden and having to, you know, carry the emotional weight, because, you know, I’m thinking, I’m thinking of a particular HR professional that I have the pleasure of partnering with, and you know, that one of the things she talked about was, she said, it’s really hard to, – their company is doing a lot of intense and necessary work around diversity, equity and inclusion. And she said, and it’s really hard, you know, particularly as a woman of color in this position to hold the space for everyone else’s when I’m having my own emotions, and having to compartmentalize it. In that point. You made it like, we can’t be ourselves. What is it – I can assume what the cost is, and I think burnout is a term that sometimes I think gets thrown around.

Julie Turney
Right.

Sarah Noll Wilson
But people may not. It’s like unless you’ve experienced it, you don’t understand how debilitating it can be. But what’s, what’s the cost when HR, you know or other support teams are not also keeping an eye on themselves?

Julie Turney
It’s, that’s a good one with cost is huge. A huge loss of self. So many of us lose ourselves in our jobs. Because we believe that we have to show up a specific way. Which means we can’t always be ourselves. I think the term burnout – so we know that burnout happens with excess stress, right. But there’s other things that happen in the HR space that lead to, or are part of the combination of burnout. So we have our vicarious trauma, because we’re continuously holding space for people. And if we are empaths, which a lot of us are, when we are an empath, because we are taking on the emotions of others, that additionally adds to our emotional distress. And if we don’t have anywhere to unpack that, then we end up with this trauma that we keep compressing down. And at some point, the spring is going to rebound, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, you can only push the ball underwater so much before it’s gonna pop back up.

Julie Turney
Exactly. So the vicarious trauma is real. And as a result of the vicarious trauma, then we get to the other extreme of like, we just we struggle with, you know, I just can’t care about this anymore, which is the compassion fatigue side, right. We’re so tired of caring, we can’t care anymore. And so now it almost seems as though when people you know, when people say HR is emotionless, HR is void, HR is a robot. But what it is, is that because we are suffering from compassion fatigue, we don’t know, we can’t express emotions anymore. We struggle to care. And then all of those things, the compassion fatigue, the vicarious trauma, in there some PTSD, if you will, is a recipe for disaster. And if we don’t have proper places to unpack that stuff, and heal, when it all starts to come up, we get burnout, and all the other stuff. And so that’s the cost. And as a result of that cost, you start making mistakes, you start getting sloppy, you start getting anxious, you struggle with sleep, your sleep is worthless. It’s almost like not happening for you. I remember once going on three hours sleep, I was so burned out. And just feeling like everyone is, is against you, like someone’s out to get me. Today they’re all out to get me. And all of those things not only impact who you are at your core, but they impact the people who love you. They impact your relationships. You can lose relationships. I remember being so distressed at some point in my career, and hearing my children say, Mommy, you need to find another job. This job makes you too sad. And we don’t like to see you sad. And they cannot fathom how I loved doing the work that I did. But it made me so sad. The cost is the look on my children’s face. Or my husband, who at the time was my emotional support cushion. And you are laying all of your trauma on him. And I remember him saying one day look, babe, I can’t take this. You either need to leave this job or stop telling me stuff because it’s just, it’s too much. I can’t keep looking at you like this. Part of the conversations that took me to therapy.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That – I would imagine there’s some people, obviously, I imagine there are some fellow HR folks who are listening going, Oh, my gosh, I feel so seen right now. I hope they do. And there may be some people thinking, oh, I had no idea, or I never realized that. And you know, and I also imagine there are some folks who may be again, in different roles, different positions, but find themselves being the person that people come to, the highly empathetic, supporting them through challenges all of that, and having to navigate that, that emotional labor. And although we love doing that, I mean, that’s what’s clear in talking, you know, hearing you talk about your work, it’s like I love it. And, and there comes a point where there’s only so much gas in the tank to be able to support it. So, you know, in the so in the spirit of, you know, one of the things we always want to try to find in our conversations are, what are some specific strategies? And, you know, we can think about this through either conversations we can have with ourselves, right? Or we can support or even if you want to be explicit about what, how, like, what, what are the things that you do and how do you support the HR professionals in your world?

Julie Turney
Boundaries is a big one. First and foremost, I recognize that I am a human being, and there’s only so much that I can do. I recognize that I am a human being who was not a therapist, and therefore I shouldn’t try to take on the role of therapists, which a lot of us as HR professionals try to do.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You bet. Same in coaching.

Julie Turney
We are not therapists. So one of the things that my therapist taught me to do, which I really appreciated, was putting things in in the right place. And so she would say to me, Julie, when this person comes to you with this particular situation, are you the right person for them to be speaking to? It’s hard question to ask yourself, especially if you’re the person that feels that you have to have all of the answers. And you know, you’re okay with people coming to you all the time, but that revolving door gets tiresome. Right? So am I the right person? Is this conversation, the the conversation that I can help someone, and if it’s not, then who is the right person that can help this person? And I direct them that way. And so, I’ve learned to build up a pool of resources that I can refer people to whether it’s therapists, whether it’s, you know, great other HR people, HR communities that I found, because – so what I started to do is a lot of research, and I’ve been in lots of different communities. So I have like a running list of communities where I know there are great HR people that can help other people. So I went – based on what people asked me or whatever the challenge is, I would say, I, I know that I’m not the one that can facilitate this or support you in this way right now. However, I do know some amazing communities that I think would be a great fit for you. And I can make these recommendations right now, extend the links, and people go on their merry way. The other thing for me is recognizing when I am at the state of getting full, when I feel like it’s too much. So when I’m at that point, and I know I’m no longer emotionally available, I know it’s time for a therapy session. This is a time that I want to start unpacking some stuff. Because clearly there’s stuff that I haven’t unpacked, that needs to be taken care of, so that I can make room to help others. So recognizing when the tank is getting full. And it’s almost like the reverse of when your tank is getting empty, and you need to fill up, right, your gas tank or when your battery is getting low, you need to recharge it. When you are getting full of lots of stories and experiences as a result of sharing and holding space, then you have to release that so that you can make room to support others. So recognizing when that is happening. And for me usually the tipping point is around where almost every conversation I started to have makes me cry.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I was just gonna ask you what your tell was, you know, because I think that that’s an important part is that it’s easy for us to intellectualize and go yeah, yeah, yeah, that sounds good. Yeah, I’ll totally do that. But what are your tells? And so I’d love to hear more of you know, what are your tells or what are some of the tells you see in other people? We were just you know, we’re just meeting as a team. We just brought on a new team member so we were sharing our manuals. And, and one of the things that is my tell that I didn’t know was my tell, but my colleague, Dr. Teresa Peterson shared this with me last year, she said, when you are stressed, when you’re really overwhelmed, Sarah, everything feels disorganized to you. Suddenly things that we’ve had in place that are our structure, our procedures, you sort of get into full like, I just don’t think that this was working anymore. And I was like, oh, (laughs) yeah. Damn, that is one of my tells, isn’t it? Like, I had never thought of it. So. So for you, when you notice yourself, you know, crying, getting emotional, when people are sharing what are some of the other tells that you have or that you see in other, you know, in the clients that you serve?

Julie Turney
So for me, the – so, like I said, crying is one of my tells. Or when I just get quiet, I get super still – for a very long time. I just go into myself and I start processing stuff and I’m like, okay, it’s time for me to do a dump, or my assistant would say, I haven’t heard from you for days. (laughter) Then I know, okay, yeah, I need to fix that. But in some of my clients, one of the things is like, you see this erratic, almost erratic behavior of I love HR. No, I don’t love HR. I want to get out. No, I want to stay in. No, I can do this. I can’t do this. (laughter) That’s how it generally looks for a lot of my clients, it’s like, peaks and valleys. It’s like, I need leadership. No, I can do this. I don’t need anyone. I’m good. I’m not good. Oh, my God the world is falling apart.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Then the spiral just happened and the tornado brings everything in.

Julie Turney
Yes. So like working with my clients, I always say I work from the inside out. So you know, most of the time, HR people will come to me and they’ll be like, they have these this wish list of things that they want me to coach them through and make them better. And I’m like, it doesn’t work that way. We have to start on the inside. When we start to unpack things about you know, what you love about your career, what you don’t love about your career? How would you describe yourself with in your career. When are you at your best in your career? When are you at your worst? What makes you happy and glad and mad at the same time? What are the conditions that you need in order to thrive as an as an HR professional in your career? And as you start to unpack those things, you realize, oh, my goodness. One of two things start to happen, people go (quickly inhales and exhales) – they start to have a panic attack. And they go, (in a panicked voice) maybe I shouldn’t be in HR, maybe I don’t deserve to be in HR, maybe people don’t need me, maybe, you know, there’s like all of these things happen and I just go calm down. We’re just going through a host of emotions but we have to unpack this. The minute we start to unpack that and people start to feel better they go, wow, I didn’t even realize that I needed this. The moment we get into things like mindfulness, and journaling, and positive affirmations, and people go, I didn’t realize that I needed these things. And the moment that they get through that wall, and they hit that moment of clarity, then I go okay, so now are you ready to get to work on making your HR career what you want it to be? And they go, yes, let’s do this.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, what I love about that is, you know, you’re, I mean, obviously, helping support people to develop their self awareness, but you’re giving them those anchors, right, to keep them anchored during the storms. I don’t think, I don’t think that I’ve met an HR person who at some point wasn’t like, I need to get out of this. This job is killing me. And then the next moment like, Oh, my God, let me tell you about this amazing situation. That happens.

Julie Turney
It happens, it happens Sarah. I promise you. One of the funny things about some of the conversations I have with my clients like especially in those moments where they’re talking about, you know, showing up as themselves or like what they really want for their HR career. There’s a question, there’s a point in our session where I asks a question, the question, and I asked them, have you ever said that out loud before? And they go, no. I’ve never said that out loud before. You see the difference between what’s in your head and getting it out of your head and getting it somewhere where you can actually see it. Spin it around for what it really is and look at it in all the directions that you’ve never looked at it before. There’s a liberation that comes with that. There’s a freedom that comes with that. I know a lot of us have some stuff in our heads, that is living rent free, that needs to come out, that has never come out. And the moment that it does, it changes your trajectory of what your expectations are of your career, the people you work with, the organizations you work with, the work that you do, all of these things start to look different.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You just I mean, you hit on such an important practice that I think often gets – I don’t even think that it gets valued, I think it just does, people don’t understand the power of, of just being able to speak out loud and to process and to get that space. And whether you’re in HR or not, that is such an important practice that there are times I mean, just happened today, where my colleagues were sharing some things that I was like, wow, I had no idea. And they were like, I kind of didn’t, either, until we were doing this exercise, and I’ve said it out loud. And, and, and I your language of liberating. There is a release, sometimes when we can name – when we can name the shadows, when we can name the the beliefs and then sometimes you go, I know that’s totally irrational what I just said, but there’s some part of my brain that’s like, maybe it is. (laughs) Maybe, maybe I need to hold on to it.

Julie Turney
(indisguishinable)

Sarah Noll Wilson
And I you know, I think that that’s such a, that’s such a powerful practice for folks. Because otherwise, you know, you can ruminate, you know, that’s something I’ve had to work on is that it can be easy to be like, I can be present with someone, I could be next to them, and they won’t even realize that I’m ruminating. And so having someone to speak it out loud, whether it’s a friend, a colleague, or a therapist, you know, I mean, I’m very, we’re very pro therapy on this the show. You said, you said a phrase a while back that I wanted to just make sure that we gave some airtime to. Because I think that the language you use was really, really powerful. Which is, I recognize. I recognize that I’m human, I recognize that I’m not this, I recognize that I’m this. And there’s something I think when I – you know, when people are struggling when I’ve observed people or have struggled myself, in a place of burnout, it very, it’s very easy to feel powerless. You nailed it on the head of you lose ourselves, which then impacts our sense of confidence, our sense of worthiness or the ability to be I don’t know, or worthy value all of that. And I was going somewhere with this point and my brain just (laughs) –

Julie Turney
It’s coming. It’s right there. (laughter)

Sarah Noll Wilson
Birthed. Oh, yeah, here it is. (laughs) Sidenote, there will be a future episode where Julie and I talk about our ADHD and how we just get each other. But I shouldn’t distract myself because now I’m gonna lose the point again.

Julie Turney
Don’t lose it. Let’s come back. (laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Hold on. This is, see this is the beauty of being human folks is sometimes –

Julie Turney
That’s it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
This happens.

Julie Turney
We recognize our limitations.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Your language of I recognize. There’s something that feels very power from within, you know, that can reclaim that. Because I think sometimes sometimes, you know, what I see is – the self care is critical.

Julie Turney
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And sometimes it’s valuable to just go, yeah, and this is messed up. This is really complex what I’m going through. And that doesn’t mean we have to be pessimistic about it. But I’m very pro like realistic. Like, let’s just be realistic, there is some shit we were dealt. And there are some challenges we are navigating. And there can be a lot of power in just owning that too. But the point I wanted to get back to is the fact that your language of, I recognize. Hearing you say it, imagining saying it myself, I just feel like some power from within at a time when you might feel powerless.

Mm hmm. I like that. I didn’t even (laughs) that’s gonna be ironic. I didn’t even recognize it.

It’s your gift. It’s the gift that you gave me that I’m now just giving back to you. (laughs)

Julie Turney
Yeah. There’s a power in being able to see your own limitations. Nobody knows you better than you. But if you don’t take the time to get to know you, then people will – people thoughts and perceptions of you will live rent free in your head all day every day. So the – where I don’t give people power, whether that’s leadership or employees or people in general in my space, why I don’t give people power is in that I recognize my limitations or I recognize my imperfections. I recognize where I fall short, and where I add value. And no one can tell me different, you know. Best people could say, I totally agree with you, I’m so glad that you realize that about yourself, you know, but I own that. And whether I decide, okay, that’s something that I need to work on. Or that’s something I need to be grateful for, as a quality that exists in me, then I will do those things. But what I don’t do is give other people power, because I spent a lot of my life giving people power over me that didn’t deserve to have that power. So therapy has taught me a lot, really flipped that switch. If you, if you come to a space, and that’s where the self care really matters, right? Whether it’s through journaling, or just spending time with yourself. And I don’t know if this is going to make sense to you but are you familiar with Sherlock Holmes?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Julie Turney
So you know, –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Go into your mind palace.

Julie Turney
Sherlock Holmes had his mind palace.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, keep talking. My colleague, Teresa will be like, hold on, I’m going into my mind palace right now.

Julie Turney
I’m going into my mind palace.

Sarah Noll Wilson
So for people who are unfamiliar, please give a short description of what the mind palace is.

Julie Turney
The Mind Palace basically is where you keep your thoughts, your codex. Where you keep your your index of resources. Whether that’s memories or things you’ve learned, but it’s your your databank. And it’s where you go to process things and either come out with new ideas or some form of solution, but it’s a way of looking within, right. So Sherlock Holmes always looked within. And that really resonated with me. So it’s one of those things that I’ve taken great pride in perfecting over time for myself. I look within, I think very deeply. Sometimes doing that may take me days. But coming out on the other side of that is either solutions, realizations, practical steps of moving forward. And that really is a very special feeling that you have, in terms of the control that you have of yourself and your thoughts. It’s not the easiest thing to do. Because for most of us with ADHD, this brain does not switch up. (laughs) And so you have to find a way to quiet the noise so that you can do the things that you need to do. But we’ll talk about the ADHD another time.

Sarah Noll Wilson
We will.

Julie Turney
Sure, because –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Because what can happen right now is we could derail this whole conversation –

Julie Turney
Let’s not do that.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Just have eight different conversations happening at the same time.

Julie Turney
All at once. And we’re okay with it and people are going, “What? I’m lost. They were here and now they are there.” Okay, we are not going to do that to you people.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m gonna do it real quick, only because I feel like the timing of it, and then we’ll come back. My good good, good friend, Farah Harris, whose been a guest on our show. –

Julie Turney
We’re going to go over here if you can follow us.

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) We’re gonna go over here. And we were talking about our respective ADHD and she really, she’s newly diagnosed. And she was like, I started to realize, Sarah has ADHD, and she could follow my tangents. My other friend has ADHD, she can follow my tangents. Like, maybe I should like – then I realized we just attract each other because we can, you know, dance in the – Okay. In the spirit of focus. (laughs)

In the spirit of focus. Now, we’re coming back over here.

We’re coming back, folks. So we’re going to come back to our original conversation, knowing that, you know, we have 1000s of listeners all over the world. And we know a fair amount of them are in HR or some kind of leadership position. Most of them – I am making assumptions. Hi, everyone. I don’t know much about you, but I like to imagine you, but they but they are people who are passionate about humans. Right? That’s what this whole show is about. So what what would you if you had the opportunity, which you do right now, to speak to people who are listening, who may – who see themselves, whether that’s from an HR perspective, maybe it’s a DEI practitioner navigating that, maybe it’s a leader, maybe it’s a – they’re in an industry where they’re supporting, what would you want to say to them right now, if they are feeling that kind of tender, tenderly seen?

Julie Turney
Hi people, I want to say, first and foremost, give yourself grace. And secondly, forgive yourself. You’re only going to be able to do whatever you can do in the moment that you do it. And feel like it’s the right thing to do. And even if it’s not 100% the right thing to do, or later down the road, in retrospect, you feel like kicking yourself, because you could have done this or you should have done this. Or you could have said that, or you should have said that, forgive yourself. You did the best that you could, with the information, circumstances, the boldness that you were feeling that you had, at the time you did the best you could. Let it go. You are strong, you are powerful, you are in this profession for a reason. Navigate your why, navigate your why, keep it firmly fixed in front of your face every single day, because people will do things to test your why. But just keep that thing in front of your face that tells you this is why I do what I do. This is why I show up every day. And if you keep that fixed right in front of you, it will make it easier for you to navigate this journey that we call HR, and all the different facets that are involved in it. So give yourself grace, forgive yourself. Remember, you are strong, you are powerful. And just remember your why and let your why navigate you through your career.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I just I think I need to put that on repeat and just listen to it every morning. That’s going to be my get up and go. You Julie you are, you have such a beautiful wisdom and deep care. It’s no surprise that your company is called HR Heart. You know, you you bring such a love. It just radiates, it radiates. It radiates off the screen, it radiates. So if anyone is wondering, Is she really this great? (whispers) She is. She really, really is folks.

Julie Turney
Thank you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And and I appreciate I appreciate you being willing to play with that. We hadn’t planned that. We didn’t plan any of this. But I can – I know that it’s something that you’ve thought about and probably have shared in some capacity. So I’m really grateful that you shared that. Julie, we could continue talking all night.

Julie Turney
We could.

Sarah Noll Wilson
But –

Julie Turney
We really could.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh yeah, no, we’re –

You could do Conversations on Conversations on Conversations –

on Conversations followed by Conversations on Conversations with a song and then conversations. Okay, but the question the question as we – you’re you just you keep tempting me. I mean, the just the temptation to just, you know, like –

Julie Turney
I’m sorry. (laughter)

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Okay, in earnest –

Julie Turney
You’ve got this.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It feels – god it feels good to laugh and be with you. Alright, so here’s the question we ask everyone as we wind down our time together. And you know, I always invite those of you who are listening to think about how would you answer this? What is the conversation that you’ve had with yourself or someone else that transformed you?

Julie Turney
So, this was – funny enough, this was a conversation that I was having with myself and I found the answer on Tik Tok. Weird, right? There was a moment, maybe late last year, early this year where I was feeling like – you may have those moments of self doubt where you feel like, I really suck. Like haven’t done anything. Not true, but just that moment, right. And there was a situation that was happening. And I was feeling really frustrated. And I remember going scrolling through Tik Tok. And I found this conversation that T.I. – if anyone doesn’t know T.I., he’s a rapper. That T.I. was having with Chris Tucker. And in the conversation T.I. said, there were two things that he learned about himself. And that he held as foundations that were, you know, grounding him. But this one stood out for me, which was like he said, he no longer allows people who have the least amount of information about him to hold power over him. Though a lot of times people feel like they have so – they know us so well, they know so much about us, but they know absolutely nothing. But we give them power. And that makes us feel less than or inadequate. But when you ask yourself the question, does this person really know me? The answer is 99.99% of the time, no, why are you allowing that person to occupy space in your head, and make you feel less than. So now my mantra for 2023 is, I am no longer going to give power to people who have know the least amount about me, I’m not going to let them live, rent free in my head about their opinions of me, because they know nothing about me. And that pulled me out of the spiral that I was going through at that time, and helped me to move forward. That conversation – I wish I knew T.I. to thank him personally. But it moved me that day. And it stirred me to, you know, keep that in the forefront. We can’t let people who know the least about us, you know, feel that they have power over us and their opinions matter. They know nothing.

Sarah Noll Wilson
(exhales) That’s a – thank you, T.I. and thank you, –

Julie Turney
Thank You T.I.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you for bringing that. That’s, that is very resonant. It makes me a little misty thinking about how often we give people who know us the least the most power. Feels like a really beautiful place to wind down our conversation. And before we do that, for people who are listening, and they’re thinking, boy, I really want to be in conversation with Julie or maybe I’m an HR person who – I’m a team of one or two and I felt very seen and I you know want to work with her or learn more about her, the work that she does, what are the best ways for people to connect with you?

Julie Turney
I live on LinkedIn. (laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
She’s got a camp.

Julie Turney
I live on LinkedIn. So you can find me on LinkedIn and send me a message an email or DM, message me on LinkedIn. So you can find me there I am Julie Turney. Twitter, you can reach out to me on Twitter. My handle is iamjulieturney. Or you can connect with me on Instagram at HRatHeart.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. And as always, we will share all that information in the show notes. Ms. Julie, it’s been an absolute treat and a gift to spend time with you. Thank you so much for saying yes to this and and saying yes to being my friend and –

Julie Turney
Absolutely, are you kidding me. Your absolute pleasure.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, thank you.

Julie Turney
You’re the best.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You’re – I receive that and I mirror it back because you’re – I was so looking forward to this. I knew it was gonna be a full day and I thought, I’ll get to talk to Julie tonight.

Julie Turney
Oh, thank you.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you for being here. Our guest this week has been Julie Turney and one of the things that I’m definitely holding on to from our conversation was that language she offered of I recognized I’m a human being. I recognize that I’m not doing you know what I want to be doing. But I just really appreciate that that phrasing of I recognize and we want to make sure we hear from you. So let us know what resonated from our conversation with Julie? You can always reach out to us at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson.com. Or you can connect with me on social media where my DMs are always open. And if you’d like to find out more about the work that we do as an organization and how we can help you and your team have conversations that matter. Check us out at Sarah Noll Wilson.com. You can also pick up a copy of my book, Don’t Feed the Elephants! wherever books are sold. And if you’d like to support the podcast, we’d love for you to become a patron you can go to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where your financial support does support the team that puts on the show and you’ll get some pretty great swag as a bonus. Also, if you haven’t, please make sure you rate review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. The more of these we get, the more visibility we get, the more we can bring on amazing guests like Julie.

A big thanks to our team who makes this podcast possible. To our producer Nick Wilson. Our sound editor Drew Noll, our transcriptionist Becky Reinert and ksn marketing services, along with the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. A huge thanks to my dear friend, Julie Turney for joining us today. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening, for showing up and being part of our community. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves or others, we can change the world. So be sure to rest rehydrate and we’ll see you again next week.