Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Andre Young as they discuss the concept of Work Life Harmony, and how it differs from the more traditional idea of work life “balance.”
About our Guest
I’m Andre Young; speaker, author, and Founder of You Evolving Now, LLC. I have taken my 19 years of experience as a Mental Health Therapist and focused on marital, individual, and group counseling. Along with my life-altering experiences as an individual, athlete, employee, and business owner, I created a movement of Positive Living, Personal Growth, Relationship Growth, Healthy Living, and Lifestyle Enhancement. Through this movement, we are enhancing Work/Life Harmony and Leadership on-site for Companies and Schools!
Although I value the profession of Mental Health, I wanted to create something new, different, and out-of-the-box. Something focused on positivity, building up, empowering, and without stigma. Something people can be excited about and leave motivated and inspired to make an impact in every role of their lives and in the lives of others! You Evolving Now is designed to meet the “busy” person where they are… at work, at school, and on their phone, giving them what they need, but too busy to seek until it’s too late! EVOLVE with our speaking engagements and leadership programs at your site to better yourself and make an impact inside and outside of work!
Most of us will go to the dentist when our tooth hurts badly enough. What if you could avoid some of life’s biggest pains and be proactive in your relationships and in your work? Would you do it? Of course, you would!
I have lived in inner-city row homes to 5,000 sq. ft. luxury homes, from being married, divorced, and remarried, played sports at every level from high school to professional, been an employee, business owner, and self-employed, written 4 books, have four amazing kids, and a wonderful wife… and the truth is… no matter where you go or what you experience, people are the same as they are different. Their attention may be on different things, they may look different… but people all want the same thing: The best life possible for themselves and their families, doing the best they can with who they currently are and what they currently know, and healthy living. I enjoy being able to impact Work/Life Harmony and Leadership; allowing Employees, Athletes, and Students to live their best lives as People, Partners, Parents, Professionals, and more!
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Episode Transcript
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more meaningful conversations with ourselves and with each other. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, and I am, and I think I say this every week, I’m so excited, and it’s always genuine. But I’m really excited to introduce this week’s guest and to dig into the topic of work/life harmony. So our guest this week is Andre Young. And let me tell you about his formal bio, and then how we connected and then then we’ll bring him on to the show. So Andre Young is a professional speaker, author, leadership trainer and founder of You Evolving Now. He worked as a mental health therapist for 19 years, which we’ll get into, has been an employee, a business owner, self employed, played sports at every level, from high school to professional and has written four books with the focus of enhancing leadership and work/life harmony. And I just want to give a quick shout out that his most recent book, The Leaders Toolbox, just launched on December 13. And you can purchase that anywhere books are sold, just saw that this morning. And you know, I love your I love your phrase here that he encourages leaders to stop being busy and start being better. So welcome to the show Andre!
Andre Young
Thank you so much for having me. Sarah, it’s a pleasure being here. And you guys listening. Thank you for letting us steal some of your time, is much appreciated.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, time is the most precious gift people give us. And so I appreciate that intro. Andre and I, we connected we were speaking at a conference together. And when we were on the speaker call, there was something about how he was talking and how he was thinking that piqued my interest. And so the more I started to learn about the work he did, and then we had a chance to connect down there and a chance to connect afterwards, I knew that he was definitely somebody that I wanted to introduce you all to. So first, Andre, before we get into the, you know, the the meat of the content, what else do you want people to know about you?
Andre Young
What else? That we’re all a lot of things, you know. So I’m a father of four (laughs) and I giggle when I say it, I have a 23-year-old, a 20-year-old, a 15-year-old and a 3-year-old. So, you know, I think that is really cool to know about me. It’s an honor, I honestly feel like it’s an honor to wake up every single day and I get to do what I do for a living. And that’s a testament to a lot of choices, but also wording, success and leadership is a language and when we change our language, we can change our life. So for everybody out there saying what you have to do, one – no you don’t. And most of the things that we complain about, there are 7.5 billion people on this planet more than half of them will trade places with you and take everything you have in a snap of a finger. So start getting to do instead of having to do.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I mean our – it’s the the change your language change your world. I mean, that’s the words we use create our worlds, it creates our reality. And sometimes I think we’re not, we don’t realize the power. Right?
Andre Young
No.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We don’t, it’s like shoulding on yourself. It’s saying, Oh, I have to do this instead of like I get to do this and and honoring when yeah, it’s okay that this is hard right now. And how do I want to move through in a way that feels good, –
Andre Young
And they don’t teach you that in school. You’ll take all of the English classes, you’ll get the credits for it, but they never talk about how to speak to yourself. Because – I call it the “bully words”, so I get to teach it worldwide and I won’t get into all of them, but – But, If, Can’t, Try, Just, Only, Should and Deserve and we’ll throw Happy in there as the bonus word. They will bully you out of the life you want. They will bully you out of your leadership and when you use them with other people, you’re wrong. Sarah, if I would say, “Well, you’re just a. You’re only a.”
Sarah Noll Wilson
Mm.
Andre Young
It might be a fight, because it’s offensive, but we might say it to ourselves how many times. Guys out there listening, you want to see the power of words. Go home and tell your wife what she should do. And watch how your night changes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Andre Young
We should ourselves, we might should other people. Like so these bully words we have to learn what they are and what to place them with and it starts to become like offensive when you hear other people say it and they’ll start to change who you are. And you’ll start to attract a different type of person actually.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s well it’s you know, it’s like seeing the matrix. So suddenly you start, okay, seeing it everywhere. I didn’t catch all of them. You move through them really fast. So I’ll have to go back and listen on the replay. But two that you threw in at the end, deserve. Say more about that.
Andre Young
Deserve.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And happy.
Andre Young
It’s – deserve is the biggest peacock word in our language. You want to stick your chest out and peacock and have a professional or personal temper tantrum, it’s deserve. I deserve that raise. I deserve that job. I deserve that relationship. The truth is, and the fact is that you don’t have it. So when we take away what we feel like we deserve and are entitled to – and typically, we feel entitled because we’ve been willing to do something our way. When you take deserve off the table, and you replace it with what I call the “Get Great” question, life gets better. And the “Get Great” question says, “Sarah, I deserve that raise.” Instead of, “Sarah, I want to be the greatest employee that has ever worked here. I do want to raise. What do you and this company need most for me right now?” I have no idea what you’re going to say. Whatever you say, I don’t have to do. But I can no longer complain about what I don’t get. Whatever you say, I have an opportunity to now marry, marry what I want to do with what you need most, and simply a little bit outside of my comfort zone, but not so much that I wind up resenting you or the task. So it’s called the “Get Great” question. Take deserve out of the picture.
My son plays basketball, played basketball, I have two sons. And he wanted to get more playing time. I told him the “Get Great” question. He would sound crazy to go to his coach and say, “I deserve to be on the court.” Because whether you’re right or wrong, you’re not on the court and that’s not the way to get on the court.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (chuckles)
Andre Young
So instead, he said the “Get Great” question. I’m standing five feet away from her. “Coach, I want to be great here. I want to earn more playing time. What do you need most from me right now?” And the coach said what most leaders do. They answered and responded in the most lazy way possible. “Aw, just keep doing what you’re doing.”
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Andre Young
Been there?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, heard it, seen it.
Andre Young
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Probably have said it myself, if, let’s be real, like honest.
Andre Young
When I teach people, you know, employees or other people, one, we have to understand why they said that. One, they may not – first off, they may not be thinking quick on their feet, they may not believe that you can handle their truth right now. Maybe they don’t even know the answer to your question, because they haven’t thought of it. Maybe they’ve got to pee and you interrupted them from going to the bathroom or lunch break. Or maybe they’re hangry and they don’t want to talk. There could be a thousand reasons why. So I taught my son and I’ll teach you guys the judo of just keep doing what you’re doing. “Hey, I appreciate you saying that coach, husband, wife, boss, whoever I appreciate you saying that. It really means a lot. I really do want to know. I know you’re busy now but how about I check in later in the week where I’m available Monday at one o’clock, Thursday at thre. I want to ask and if the answer is the same, then great. If not, I want to know.” And what that does, it allows them permission to think, it allows them to go back to their definition of busy. You can go back to your definition of busy. And now when we have this conversation it’s not emotionally volatile. So that’s, that’s the way around that, that I found worked best.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s interesting. One of the things that I was thinking of is, I mean, two things that I want to like, highlight of what you said, you know, the first is the marrying of what you’re willing to – what you want to do with what they need you to do. And like, within within the amount of like, with how much you want to give to it, right? So like there’s some ownership and boundaries and accountability with it. But when you you said real quickly, like they might not think you’re ready for the truth. And what was coming up for me is like, well, what would that conversation look like? Like and I want to be clear, I’m ready for the truth. Like even just using that – again in the power of language. Right? I think that that’s a real gift of a phrase. Of of not even be aware of that. But how can we use that, right, in those moments? Okay, so we’re already getting into it. But I do want to take a step back. Because I want people to understand more of your journey because you have taken such an interesting path to get here. And it’s, I think it’s really important for folks to understand. So from where are you sort of like and you can you can decide the start. (laughs) But you know, you spent a lot of time working in the mental health industry as well as – industry, that sounds – but in the mental health field, but talk to us about your journey from where you started your career to where you are now and the work that you’re doing.
Andre Young
Well that’s a great start. Mental health was my first, well not my first love, football was my first love.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So is that what you played? Sorry. Is that what you played then?
Andre Young
I played football.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Remind me.
Andre Young
I played, um –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Okay.
Andre Young
High School, then college and I worked out with New England Patriots and that lasted literally all of five minutes. And then I took eight years off. I was done like I played semi pro after that. Did really well. But I knew it was time. I went and got my master’s. I really delved into my career. Eight years later, I’m at the gym. A guy is following me around to the point I’m getting nervous, like, what’s going on here? Why are you following me around in the gym, and he wound up being a coach for arena football. I reluctantly, I was 29, I was done. I made, long story short, I made the team, blew my hamstring out. I got released week five of the season. So it was a great experience. But it was all over the place. And it was a lot of fun. But I say all that to say my first love was footballl. Out of college, then I’m like, “Okay, well, what the heck am I going to do?” because all I ever wanted to do with football. So I was invited to come to an interview for a residential treatment facility. So I started working there and then worked my way up around the unit of male sex offenders, ages 13 to 21, and then an alternative schools and psych wards and home therapy, and I did everything but addiction. And to be honest, I loved it so much I was – I’m a nerd about anything that I love. I want everybody to be a nerd about what they do. And I thought I would retire doing it. And I honestly fell out of love with the system and I burnt out of that job. So I tell people all the time in no joking way. But I do laugh. I have been the world’s best employee at one point in my life. And I have been the world’s worst employee at one point in my life due to burning out of a job. And I was right about everything that I was saying. But I was so wrong about how often I said it, who I said it to, how I disconnected from my staff and my passion because of it.
So I really share, now I get to share around the world how to prevent or lead through burnout. And I was – then I went through a divorce right at that time. So I’m burning out and going through a divorce. So the business started because I one day said, I’m a good person. I didn’t do everything right in marriage, and most people don’t, especially the first time. And I said, there’s a lot of people like me, and particularly men at that time, that are only failing, because they have nowhere good to go and no one good to do it with. So I created this organization for men, and it was all at the point of go home, return home better than simply relieved from the guys night out. And it kept growing out of my living room into cafe spots, and then conferences and then a women’s division and youth division and college division. And as successful as it was as a part-time thing, I really wanted to do it and have a lifestyle and be and really take care of my family and my soul with it. But I knew it was going to die. And I say that because when you do something great like that, it’s really a wellness thing. And most people aren’t concerned about being well until they’re sick. And they don’t want to spend their money to get well. So I said, my my passion, my business has to go to where people already are, at work, at school and on their phones. Their business pays for it, I can do it during work, they love it and that – and then it just really, boom, just took off once I started to add the leadership part to it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, so let’s spend some time, you know, because we’ve, we’ve explored, we’ve explored burnout before and I think it’s always worthwhile to talk about especially right now. We just had Julie Turney on who does a lot of work specifically with HR professionals and helping them navigate. You said something really beautiful of like, you loved what you did, but you fell out of love with the system. And that, you know, I think that that is such a powerful perspective that I certainly can relate to. And, you know, and that’s the, you know, one of the challenges with burnout, having experienced it myself at multiple times in my life is that there can be lots of factors and that point of we don’t think about our wellness until we’re not well is so spot on. And so you know when you – I mean there’s a couple of places I want to enter into this conversation, but the first is what what are you observing now because there’s been one, right, the fatigue from everything that’s happened over the last last few years, right? So pandemic, racial injustice, economic uncertainty, political divide, I mean, like the list goes on and on and on. What what are some of the things that you are seeing that might be like new patterns related to burnout or watch-outs that people need to be thinking about? Because again, it’s like you don’t realize you’re burnt out until you’re – like, how do we how do we catch ourselves when we’re crisping? (laughter) Like, what – how do we –
Andre Young
I’ll attack it from a few different directions, because the old problem, the problem, the real problem has never changed, the real problem is still the same, which is that people tend to do a poor job of putting them in their own calendar. Okay. Most people, bosses, co-workers, kids, you know, they’re not going to say, “Hey, you look really burnt out and fried. And you should really take a vacation and do this or that.” Like, no, as long as you keep giving, they’ll keep taking, you know. So the problem is boils down to most people do a poor job of self care until they need it. We could talk about what to do about that. But the new way the problem has been caused, is with hybrid and remote work, companies thought that they wouldn’t be as productive. They found out that they could be as productive if not more. The problem is the people that are doing the work. Their, their roles have been more condensed and consolidated more than ever before. See before you got it up, and you went to work, you drove to work and complained about the commute, went to work, complained about the drive home. But those commute times were de-escalation periods. They were you time. I remember working an hour and a half away, I remember driving an hour and a half to work. Now that’s excessive for some, for some not. And there were times in that drive time where I didn’t listen to anything on the radio. I had processed time, downtime, thought time. And although I didn’t have a lot of time in the day, I had me time. I did what I wanted in that car. So even if it’s a two, five minute drive home from work, still you. Now let’s do hybrid and remote work. You wake up, most people which I tell them not to do and we talked about training, how to, they grab their phone, and the first thing they do is check emails. But you already started in the black abyss and this hole of sand that you can’t get out of. That’s how you started the day. And then you started right with work. And then now your kids may be home I got a three year old that’s home with us all the time. So you’re right in mom and dad mode all the time, and the phone may never stop ringing and dinging with work even though it’s after five o’clock you’re just on autopilot still doing work and still attached to it. You don’t have to de-escalation drive home so now all of a sudden, as soon as you shut down your laptop, your professional Uber driver for your kids that got to go to their 13th billion practice of the year. So I think go on, but you get the point. Our roles are constantly in our face with no break. So unless you get, we get intentional and they’re small things. For me. I don’t check – my emails not first thing I check. Be sure you’re putting something in your mind and your body and spirit that makes you better instead of bitter before you touch work.
The time frame that you take is up to you. Be sure before you shut, when you shut down that laptop, what do you need to return to your life the same way you will want your employee walking through the door? You just smile. Most of us will smile and be our best selves at work and then come home and we’re just like Godzilla everybody scatters. (laughter) So know what you need. Some people might need – let me shower this day off. Let me take the dog for a walk. I go to the gym three days a week. It’s a reset, it’s a second wind. And the only person stopping you from doing any of that is you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Andre Young
Put you and your calendar even monthly put something you like and so it’s a light at the end of the tunnel something.
Sarah Noll Wilson
There’s, there’s yeah, there’s a couple of things that really resonate for me. And it’s interesting again to hear language – there’s lots of reasons why it’s difficult for us to put ourselves in the calendar. Some of that is how we’ve been conditioned, right? Like as a woman I’ve been very conditioned to like always give and put everyone else first and to nurture and to take care and it’s selfish, right when you look at parents. I feel like every parent I’ve talked to is like I love my kids and sometimes I hate my kids and sometimes I’m I’m so glad I did it and I’m also so like wondering why did I do this to myself (laughs) and and feeling guilty for for doing that but, but that point of the the boundaries have crossed so much more. And, and it’s interesting to hear your language of de-escalation, because something that I’ve had to really work on I call it toggling. Like how do I toggle? What’s the ritual that I have to do to transition because it is real easy – it’s just so easy to stay connected. It’s so easy to, right, that default that you don’t even think about it. You’re like on your phone, checking your email, and suddenly your husband, Nick, I’m talking about a friend here. But suddenly, your husband, Nick is like, “Are you checking email right now?” And you’re like, I didn’t even realize I was. And I think that that’s such a great practice for us to think about is like, what is what is that proper, effective start? Because it can be so easy to just roll out of bed and sit down at your desk, and you just start going, but how do you? You know, my therapist and I we talked about is like, how do you start well? How like, how do you start well for you? What is it that you need? And then what’s that closure? And you know, for me, I know the thing that I’ve learned is, yeah, like a shower, just like a physical transition, changing clothes. Certainly moving out of the space and sort of like shutting the laptop and being like, I’m done. But I think that that’s such a gift for us to think about what what is that de-escalation period, and that, that processing period like that, it isn’t just the toggling. But like the example you shared of being in the car, and just like I’m processing what the heck happened during the day and like, managing, those emotions, –
Andre Young
Or absolutely nothing. Like, there’s times I thought nothing on that – I was on autopilot. Oh, I’m home like so it shuts your brain off. From a closure standpoint, one of the things that I teach from my five points of the day, you want to live your best life professionally or personally, it’s these five things. It’s not about time. It’s about intent and consistency. The last point, and you mentioned women, especially for women, at the end of the night, I want to I want to teach you right now, everybody listening, I want to teach you the best question a human being can ask themselves. Before you close your eyes to go to bed at night, and I take the weekends off, you could do them seven days a week, if you like. Ask yourself very quietly, what was my biggest accomplishment of the day? Having an answer to that question will allow you to have won the day instead of the day consistently kicking your butt. I hear so many people, men and women, but mostly women that they lay in bed at night. And all they can think of this all the things they didn’t get done today, and all of the things that they have to do tomorrow. Contrastingly, waking up in the morning, you know, another point of the day, the second point, when you make your list of the things you get to do, put “Wins” at the top of your page. Because that list that we have, especially our type A people that like crossing off the list, I guarantee you, the list is nice, and it will make you busy and productive, but not always better. So what’s your wins? So if nothing gets crossed off – I know, I typically have about two to three wins, but my list is 20 things long, my list will never end.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.
Andre Young
So those are two real points. At the end of the night. What was my biggest accomplishment? If you want to take it up a level, that person laying next to you at night? They got to answer if you ask.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughs)
Andre Young
Your kids got an answer if you ask.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Well, and that, you know, so that brings me that brings me to this like reframing. I think that one one of the things that I see certainly in American culture, compared to other cultures that that we have the privilege of working in is we do have this high urgent, high hustle culture, this right, always on this perfectionism culture, right? There’s all this stuff that you know, when we think – there is there is this value on being busy, and you know, so and I think when I hear the word accomplishment, I could see a potential trap is and it doesn’t have to be with work. And that doesn’t even have to be like, quote, unquote, productive maybe my accomplishment was that I gave myself time to rest. My accomplishment today was that I was present with myself. So I want to – that’s something that I want to like, you know, tease out because I think that it can be we, we – part of our I observe this and I see this is like we have such as high value and like hustle and busy, cranking and grinding and I don’t know, like all of the words and and we have such an unhealthy relationship with rest, with being present with whoever is in front of us, with you know, I mean self care, right? Like, it shouldn’t be so hard.
Andre Young
I’m gonna tell you a quick story about that, that I, that I lived firsthand, right? So I’ve created my business, to be able to work from home, to be remote, who was, you know, even pre-COVID. And I can move how I like so I do wake up and I’m on go one thousand percent. I am. However I like nice cigars. So I know that throughout the day and I my my wife was working her job nine to five, and she was at work in the office. My kids are at school I had, I can put on an episode of Game of Thrones midday and watch it if I wanted. I could go get a cigar at the cigar bar half hour away, good. Now COVID happens. My wife has recently started her own lifestyle blog. So she’s getting into the entrepreneur spirit. However, that’s brand new, she was a nine to fiver, a very good nine to fivre. The best nine to fiver in the world. So she’s now home with me. And then our in-laws are home with me watching our little Skye two or three days a week. All the sudden, me going to get that cigar midday, even though I have built my business and my life to be able to do it, bothers the heck out of them. And I said, well, one, I’m protecting myself, I’m not gonna feel guilty about the life and lifestyle I created. But given what you said, the hustle, like you work, you work and you work . What do you mean you’re gonna go get a cigar? What do you mean you’re gonna go through this and how dare you do this. If I’m sitting here working like – it’s okay to do these things. Because and here’s the thing, I don’t need a lot of rest. We talked about rest, I don’t need a lot of rest. Nor do I think a lot of people don’t need as much rest as we think. However, we do need time to recover. You need time to recover and recoup. I was an athlete. That’s what – you don’t get a whole lot of rest during the season.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure, yeah, yeah.
Andre Young
There’s proper recovery time for each individual and that’s different. So the things that you’re putting in your calendar, me and that cigar that’s 45 minute recovery and reflection and recouping and my goal, if I’m smart, and if you’re smart, be so great coming back from those things that the people in your life like how you are, so they give you permission to go do it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Mm, mm, mm hmm.
Andre Young
But it was it was so funny that you say that because me taking that cigar, or I feel guilty if I put my feet up and watch the show midday, like I know how much money I just made today. As a nine to fiver I know what you make per day.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Andre Young
As an entrepreneur, I can make a year’s worth of salary in two hours. My day is done. You know.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.
Andre Young
So it’s, it was really interesting to watch play out and how it soothed out over the years.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s I mean, there’s I mean, it’s right. It’s like rules. They’re they’re not rules, but they are rules that we’ve created. And sometimes we push against those and to, to challenge those, whether it’s for ourselves or for other people of like, actually, it’s okay that I’m not – it’s, it’s this is okay. One of the things, one of the things in building, building the company, our company is I was really passionate about, similar what you’re talking about when I first went on my own, it was just me. And I remember feeling this really profound sense of understanding the difference between having flexibility over my time and having total freedom over my time. And I was very fortunate at my last company to have really an incredible amount of flexibility. But, but like you said, being able to create the day that I wanted, how I wanted, to manage my time – that the you know, the lack of boundaries didn’t always serve me (laugh) from my ADHD perspective. But I remember the sense of, oh, I’ve never experienced this kind of freedom. And as I bring on people, and we expand the team, and we have more team members, how do we create that system for them? And one of the things that was a funny moment was when when new people have come on to the team, and I’m thinking about my one colleague, Amy, who came from education system nine to five, very structured, very contract hours driven all of that. Watching her challenge the assumptions, the rules that she was told, and almost like, push herself. So one day, she said, I know that I know that we can control our day and there’s like clarity on when we need to meet and how often we need to respond like what the timeliness but the rest of it is like that’s your day, like however you want to. And so she said, so I hope it’s okay. But I, I ran an errand this afternoon and I had to tell myself, it’s okay for me to run the errand in this afternoon because Sarah said that we’re trying to build this company for humans. And it was just like an interesting moment to watch her push against those norms. Right?
Andre Young
Right, right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And like so, and I’ve had to you know, I’ve had to push against those. And I would love to see more because it is so it’s so necessary for us to take care of ourselves. So one of the things, so one of one of the things I am curious about, I know that there’s a reason that you don’t use the term work/life balance. I know that I have my relationship with that phrasing and why I think it’s problematic. So talk to me about why you use the language of work/life harmony.
Andre Young
Well, work/life balance, I have found that I mean, you get this vision of the scales and equality. And I don’t think – look you want to stress yourself out, try to make things perfectly balanced. And it’s also assuming that the people in your life all want the same amount of time from you anyway. So we stress ourselves out, assuming that we need it perfectly balanced where look, my wife and I have different love languages. I’m quality time. She is a very isolatory individual that can do her thing and spend a half hour with me cuddled up to watch a show at the end of the night, and it’s just fine. So this whole thing will drive you crazy. Not to mention, even if you can make it perfect, which it doesn’t need to be, it’s impossible to maintain. So I like work/life harmony. And it goes back to that marriage. I call it a leaders marriage. Leaders know how to marry what they want to do and give with what the person receiving their effort needs most from them right now.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Can you say that – wait say that again? Sorry, I want to I want to hear that again.
Andre Young
Sure. The leader’s marriage. Marry what you want to do and give with what the person receiving your effort needs most from you right now. And I don’t mean guessing what they want from you, asking what they want from you. We already talked about how to ask. So for instance, for me, I have two businesses, my speaking and training business and I also run Andre Young Foundation, my nonprofit. I run two successful businesses and have four kids ages 23 to three years old, I have no balance! But I have a whole lot of harmony because I know what my business requires from me, I know what my foundation requires from me, I know what my board, the board requires from me and how they want it. I know what each child needs and what’s most for me right now and my wife. It’s not all balanced and equal, my 23-year-old, I barely see. She’s in the world fluttering around like a butterfly, like so I don’t need to spend as much time with her as I do my 15-year-old who lives with me all the time.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Andre Young
And a three-year-old that’s not involved in sports yet. Like everybody needs something different from dad or from mom or from you. Marry what you want to do with what they need and then you’ll start to get this harmony because you’ll feel at peace. You’re not shoulding everything. So and – then you got to ask frequently so, you know, you’re not giving old wants, you’re not satisfying old wants and needs, that don’t matter anymore.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, well, and that point that you made to have like, and don’t assume, you know, I think that that’s something that you know, so much of the work, so much of the work that we do, and that I’m really passionate about is right, building those powerful partnerships, building really healthy relationships, building those high psychologically safe environments. And one of the things that we know is that when there are issues and I appreciate that you brought up like the love language is such a good example of that is when there’s issues in relationships it’s usually because we have a need that’s not being met, a value that’s being stepped on, and how important it is for us to ask and have those conversations. And so I wonder, do you have some some tips or strategies that you use, whether it’s your personal life, whether it’s the clients that you work with? What did those conversations look like because so many of us, well, one, many of us don’t even always know or have named our needs. We just know we’re frustrated with you. You know, like, I just know where irritated.
Andre Young
And I’ll tell you for me is a lot harder, because I’ve spent over I spent 19 years as a therapist, I do know me and I have the language. So having the language when the other people around you don’t can get very lonely and frustrating. So you’re going to be patient. But it doesn’t mean it’s not hurtful sometimes –
Sarah Noll Wilson
That resonates.
Andre Young
Because you’re like, okay, okay, so to answer your question professionally. One of the things that I learned especially as an entrepreneur and a leader, when I first had my business, I wanted to spew my menu all over people. I was excited about it. So I want to share what I’m excited about. But if it doesn’t meet your deepest need, I’m just wasting your time and not making any money. So I flipped it and I now say, well, after the hi, how are you the connection, “What is it that you would want to get out of bringing someone like me in? What do you want to get out of working with someone like me?” So what is suggested one, what do you want to get, do they know? And then two, let’s not assume that I’m the person. So whatever you say, I can match it to what I have, I can customize, I can create or I can work on it. And now everybody takes a deep breath. And now I get to listen, they’re telling me their pain. Now, either I have the medicine or I don’t. And if I do have, when I do have the medicine, I can tell you the proper doses. And now we can customize. Now it’s all about timing and budget. Now, it’s all about timing and budget. And that’s always something that we can come up with.
On a personal level. I don’t want to be redundant. It’s that “Get Great” question. However, I will say this so I can come to my wife or I can come and say, “Hey, I see you struggling.” You know, I, we work at home with a three year old. She’s busy with her work and starting her business. “I see you struggling. I see on on wits end.” I don’t want to assume what she needs. I mean, it’s nice that I will and you want to be appreciated for it. But if it’s not meeting her deepest need it doesn’t matter as much. So, “Honey, baby, what is it that you need most from me right now? How can I help you? I was thinking this.” So you can either let them speak or leaders accompany their, a problem with the solution. “Hey, I was thinking I’ll put the baby to sleep. And do nap time, from here to here. Give you a something thing, my son has basketball games, I’ll start bringing her she won’t have her nap. And she’ll come to me with the games, and they’ll give you like three hours. What do you like about that? Is there anything you change is that?” So you can ask to the “Get Great” question. Or you can bring a suggested solution and say, “Hey, what do you like about it? And is there anything that you would change?” And that has really worked phenomenally for me both professionally and personally. Because it’s – when you ask the question if you’re a leader enough to ask, make sure you’re leader enough to listen. Don’t ask a question and then when they give you a response, you want to either defend dukes up, hey, already do that or what? Or deflect and never speak to them again, because you were offended by what they said they need. So if you are leader enough to ask, please leader enough to listen. And don’t you’ll have to respond right away, actually, it’s best don’t respond right away.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s a well, and that’s something that you and I share is the value of the idea that leadership isn’t a role, it’s an act. It’s a verb, it’s something we do. And yeah, and you know, what was coming up for me too, is because I’ve, I’ve had people in my life who are really skillful at this. Because it can be hard, it can be hard when you’re one, if you’re stressed or overwhelmed, your brain isn’t thinking logically, it isn’t necessarily thinking – it can’t problem solve in the same way that sometimes you need other people to help you problem solve, because you just can’t. Or maybe you feel like you’re the only one who can do it. Now, sometimes that can come from a place of control. But sometimes it can just come from a place of fear and doubt of like, well, I don’t I don’t want to burden them. Because what would that mean? Or what would that say about me? And, and, you know, my colleague Teresa, I was in a, I was in a really emotionally depleted time. We had just put down our first dog, and just really tough emotionally but had to had a big day of speaking and workshops. And she just said, like, “What, like, what can I do to help?” You know? And, and, and it’s sometimes it’s hard for me to answer that. And I said, you know, if you could, if you could – what did I say? Like if you could, if you could just help me think through this middle section because I have the opening keynote, closing keynote those have been locked in a while. This workshop, I just like I just, I thought I was gonna have the weekend. And then obviously, like, that didn’t happen. But she kept asking, because she kind of knew that we weren’t getting to the place of ease or relief for where I was. And she just beautifully kept saying like, okay, yeah, no, I can help with that. What else would be helpful? Like what would actually be really helpful? And in her willingness to ask and that and that willingness to receive finally, finally I said, this is huge, but would you help me co-facilitate? I know it’s tomorrow but having a lead goose with me having someone you know with me in this would actually be really helpful. She was like, “Yep, absolutely.” And it ended up being this like amazing experience for her and the audience. And I mean, so this beautiful thing was born out of her really paying attention to, I think you need something you’re not asking for. I’m gonna keep asking to get it and and, and how many times, like how many times do we sense or we feel like oh, there’s a lot on their plate or but then we don’t take action on it?
Andre Young
One of the, one of the concepts if you’re ever in a position of leadership, people say that leadership is lonely. And I will say that it is lonely, but it doesn’t have to be.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Andre Young
And one of the things that I appreciate the most, is someone inviting me somewhere for something I don’t have to lead. And so as leaders, we have to be mindful enough and aware enough to accept the invitation, and go or let them do something and lead, you don’t have to lead everything, you don’t have to. So when you don’t have to do that you can give someone else the crown and the honor, sometimes we have to be mindful to let that happen. And it can be in the smallest of ways. For example, two things for me. Friend of mine asked, “Hey, do you want to come over for the game?” When you’re a leader, when you’re an entrepreneur, when you are super successful, you eventually get to a point where most of the most people who reach out to you want something from you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Andre Young
They want advice. They want to connect to pick your brain. That’s my favorite. And I don’t mind the brain picking I don’t. However, every now and – or it’s a business transaction, every now and then it’s nice for somebody to simply ask you how you are. How are you doing? And genuinely care. And that’s why I tell frontline when I meet with frontline your leaders are people too. Frontline have this belief that because their boss makes a few more dollars than them and have 200 plus more emails that everything is fine. They shouldn’t have a complaint, they should know everything. Do you know the value that a frontline employee would have if they simply say, “Hey, how was your day? Or did you catch the game? Or do you have plans for the weekend?” For my son who’s a player to ask his coach? “Hey, how you doing today? Coach? How’d you like the game?” Nope, most people don’t talk to the leaders like that. And another friend, so a friend of mine asked could you come and watch the game, I said the fact that I get to sit on somebody else’s couch, and I don’t have to lead anything.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Andre Young
Or I’ll go to a networking event. And there’s probably a couple times a year now when I first started the business, everybody does the local networking event.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Andre Young
Thirty second commercial pitch, like anybody wants to hear you rattle off for 30 seconds about your business. Okay, well, that’s a whole other story. (laughter) I made myself laugh on that one. But –
Sarah Noll Wilson
I know those events intimately.
Andre Young
Right, right. And we all started off there, and it’s no knock on them. But if you can cut that down to a ten seconds, instead of 30 seconds, you’ll do yourself a favor in the world. But every now and then I’ll go to one and not the traditional one more more. So like the networking night were there’s hors d’oeuvres. And I say I simply want to go because I just want to be in the room and not – and just be. Just be around my – I don’t have to sell my business anymore. I just want to meet people and chill and not be – it’s an honor to get to the level where people want so many things from you. However, it’s so nice just to be a part of something.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, well, I mean, that what you’re presenting, and what I really appreciate and love about it is also another way of thinking about that recovery, thinking about that self-care. Whether you are leading your own business, whether you’re a manager, whether you are even just a parent, right? Like there are times when some of my parent friends are just like I just kind of need to talk to an adult, like I you know, or one of my really close friends whenever we go out to eat. She said, can we just always go somewhere where like I can be served, and I don’t have to do the serving. And I think that that’s a really great – because sometimes I feel like we either oversimplify or we put self-care in categories that are very limited.
Andre Young
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right of like, okay, go go to the spa or, you know, go for a run or do and not not discounting those but I love I love that nuance that you’re presenting of – because and I feel that there are times where I go – I have a group of of high school friends, friends from high school, and we get together and we do trips. And one of the things that I love is, I said I love that I just get to be Sarah.
Andre Young
Just be me. I’m so glad you went there because –
Sarah Noll Wilson
I just get to be me.
Andre Young
Every other month I have a group of three, so it’s four of us, from from college so college buddies. Every other month we plan and it doesn’t always go as – but we rotate living rooms. So we’ll go to somebody’s living room, have drinks, cigar, watch a game or something. And in that group, I’m simply Dre. I am not the author, Andre, I am not the leadership trainer, nobody’s worried about how much money – it’s just, and I just sit there, I say the least. And I giggle the most. And it is just fun.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Andre Young
It’s fun, it takes you back. Now, on alternating months, I get together my entrepreneur friends. And when I get with them, it’s idea filled, it’s, you know, I pick up business gems that I never would have gotten. And it’s not because it’s purposeful that way, that’s just how we speak. So my home rule for anybody I hang out with – so now I put me in my calendar. And I, and I put alerts to it. It’s in there, it’s always a light at the end of the tunnel. My rule for whoever I hang out with, whether it’s my high school friends, my entrepreneur friends or the world, I want to feel fun filled, idea filled, lucky to be there and have an enjoyable experience. Like, I want to be thinking that way before I leave to go, while I’m there, and after I return. If all three of those boxes are not checked, I don’t hang out with them. So I need to feel idea filled, inspired and lucky before, during and after. And if not, that’s not my group.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I (laughs) I love all of that. You know, as you were talking, I was thinking about like, yeah, the the Marie Kondo version of our life. Does this give me joy, if it doesn’t then let it go. And that one, life is too short for obligations. And especially for those people who are in formal leadership roles, you are giving a lot or informal leadership roles, right? Like, again, the parents or leading in your community or taking care of a loved one, or whatever that might look like is what gives you energy what and it – one of the one of the gifts of the pandemic is that I think it forced so many of us to question our values, to question how do I want to spend my time. I found myself going, I literally lost out on basically two years with the most precious people in my life. And that helped me set that boundary. Because that’s really hard to set that boundary because you don’t want to be like, sorry, I’m just not excited thinking about hanging out with you. You don’t need to say that. You don’t need to be like um, I can’t attend because I’m literally like, only going to attend out of obligation. But getting really clear about – you know, right now I’m spending time with, you know, my family, really close friends and work. And that’s and that’s where I’m, like I I’ve built up, I’m building up I should say that muscle to set some of those boundaries. And for me, I know like if I start to feel obligated, I need to get out of there. Because not only will I not feel at my best, but I will not show up and give my best. And one of the things that again, I love I love talking about these different ways that recovery can look is that the other other trap I think that we fall into when we think about self-care, is we think of it as a solo sport. And for sometimes that needs to be the case. Sometimes that like you mentioned your wife and my husband is the same way like he needs. He’s much more introverted than I am. He needs more time solo. And sometimes recovery is he and I being together and doing something quiet. And so I think that’s the other thing that’s been an evolution and what I love about the examples you’re sharing is – and like what what, you know to use your language, like what energizes you what gives you fun, what makes you excited, so you’re excited to go, excited to be, and excited to leave is such a gift.
Andre Young
Fun is a word that we don’t talk about enough because it’s ever-evolving for us all. And there’s been times when you are – you ever look up one day and say, what’s fun for me? Like, I’ve lost my definition of fun multiple times in my life because you’re on autopilot doing what you love to do or have to do. And I – the definition of fun for me has changed thank goodness from when I was 16 to when I was in my 20s to when I was in my 30s and now in my 40s and headed into my 50s. It’s okay that it changes but do you know the definition? And sometimes we forget, I’ll look up and say what do I really like doing? And I got to sit back and think because it’s not much!
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Andre Young
I like, I like seeing new places. I prefer to see them with my wife. I like smoking cigars. I like going to the gym but I wouldn’t say it’s fun. You know, it’s something that I do. So when I look at what’s fun for me, it’s not a lot of things. And the things that I mentioned are not these super expensive, extravagant things. It really comes down to quality time. My love language is quality time. And it’s, I love being able to take my family out to eat. I got four kids, to get everybody sitting at the table and getting along, awesome. I created all of you and to sit at a table and sit there. It’s awesome. That’s fun. So really reevaluating every now and then what’s fun, and then knowing the people around you what’s their definition of fun, that’s leadership too. How do you create an enjoy a little bit of their fun? How do you join them in their fun? So or at least encourage it the things that are fun for my wife are not fun for me. Like she wants to do whitewater rafting. I said, I’ll see you when you get back like that is – I am not getting on that raft. But I’ll encourage you. I’ll videotape it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, it’s that’s, that’s such a good example of really healthy relationships. One of the ways the Gottman Institute has talked about how they can they can identify with incredible accuracy, the health of a relationship based off of how they turn towards each other. Right? Like somebody makes a bid. I like this and you go, oh, but that doesn’t mean I have to do it with you. It’s like I love, you go, I’ll support, what do you need? I’ll take care of the kids.
Andre Young
I’ll get t-shirt made up with your name and face. I’ll get it all.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know. We don’t, we don’t. – and I know it’s and I know it’s hard. And it depends on your your living situation. It depends on your your life circumstance. There is so much power in that joy, right? There’s so much power in laughter and I like I know when things are in harmony, right? Or like a good integration, whatever the language is, when I feel and you know, my husband would probably agree with this, when there’s a higher level of sort of silliness in our relationship, right? Like we’re, we’re teasing each other. We’re making goofy jokes that only you know, he and I. And it’s something that it’s like, I’m trying not to chase busyness anymore. I’m trying to chase ease, which is ironic, like, that’s not the right language, but like ease and joy and, and I love that question for all of us to ask is like, you know, when was the last time that you had a lot of fun? Or what are the things – and to be unapologetic about it? Because again, I think sometimes we feel you know, going back to your bullying words, right? Like, let’s bring it full circle, like, oh, that’s stupid that that brings me joy or that stupid that that’s something that I – but but we have our own manual, right? You know, like and be okay that you you like the cigars and I really like playing my accordion. And that’s something that brings me – and you know, and for me it’s it’s it’s it’s not just playing the accordion, it’s actually more specific. It’s getting to play my accordion from my parents who they just love it so much. And so like when I’m having a rough day. This is good, good reminder for myself is like what are those things that are like what, like, what do I love? And to be a little unappolagetic, I mean, as long as it’s not hurting or harming someone else? Just own it.
Andre Young
Then the people around you. So when you don’t “should” their fun, hopefully you set a model for them not to “should” yours. Well, you shouldn’t need that. You shouldn’t need to leave the house to do that. You shouldn’t need to do that. Because I want to fulfill your, you should be fulfilled by this, this and this. See, how should can start to you know? Because what should really does mean is I would like for you or us to dot dot dot.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Andre Young
I would like for me to be enough fun for you. What would you like to do with me moving forward? That’s what it should _ that’s what should really means. But we don’t use that language. No, you should have did this. Well, moving forward, I would like for you to dot dot dot. That’s what should means. And that’s fair to say yeah, moving forward I want for us to do this. What will it take for that to happen?
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. My friend, we can keep talking. But I want to be thoughtful of your time and you’ve given us lots of gifts. I do want to I do want to ask you the question that we ask everyone before we officially wrap up. You know this, this whole show is about conversations we have with ourselves and others and you know what I really appreciate the specificity of the language that you have given and the questions we can ask and so people can see what it looks like and they can try it on right and find the language for them. But for you my friend, talk to us you know and you can share as much as little whatever you want to around a conversation you’ve had with yourself or with someone else that was transformative for you.
Andre Young
The last big one happened a couple of years ago. I always talk to myself by the way like my my – it was so funny like when we first got married, my wife was like, “Who are you talking to you?” She thought I was talking on the phone. So now we just know I talked to myself and I answered myself, “World is okay.” So when I first started my business, I was gung ho, I’m full speed ahead. And I – it was everything that I wanted to do. However, it wasn’t making a lot of money, you start any business, you’re not making money, and then you’re reinvesting the money, and then we all go through those phases. Ten nights to be over – Ten years to be an overnight success. And I remember it being very stressful for my wife, and I, you know, I’m willing to die to do this, but we still have family to feed. You know, we still had a lot of things going on. And I remember standing in the mirror, we were both in the bathroom and I remember looking myself in the mirror, and I that moment, I vowed to be successful. I vowed to make money, I vowed to support my family with what I do and what I love and get wealthy doing it, I remember it. So I’m big on I talked about marriage, you know, leaders marry what they want to do and give with dot dot dot. However, leaders also marry themselves.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Andre Young
We will stand – most of us will stand at an altar and make vows to another person that barely knows themselves and we barely know ourselves and we’ll make these vows before we ever even thought of making a vow to us. And I made a vow that day, and I wrote it in marker right on my mirror in the bathroom. And I said I vow to succeed. And so you know, in my trainings and speaking engagements, I talk about your vision. Now here’s the here’s the pro and concerned about your vision, whatever you’re vowing, whatever conversation you’re having. The pro is you had one, the concern about it is that it’s cute, and it does nothing for you. (chuckles) Like, so it inspired me, okay, I vow to be successful. Well, what the heck does that mean? So that’s your vision. But what are your vision factors, the three, three to five things that when you do them consistently, the vision has to take care of itself. So my vow was to get successful and become the best in the world in my space and get wealthy doing it. Well, my three things that I found that work was one, I needed to create great content, whether it’s books, videos, articles, training programs, whatever. Two, I need to network appropriately, I can’t be doing the thirty second commercial anymore. I’ve outgrown that experience. So I needed to network and not only broaden the network, but who was going to be my network, and what do they want for me? How do they want to consume what I have to give? Then three, I needed passive income opportunities. Initially, starting off in your lane, most people want passive income and passive doesn’t mean passive, doesn’t mean you’re not doing anything. And it’s really hard to do anything when you don’t even know what that thing is. So create passive income opportunities already in your field of knowledge, and then expand out. So once I started focusing on those three things, and everything I said yes to had to fit in there. And now I know a great way to tell somebody no, because hey, this is where I’m going. Can you fit your idea inside this box? If so great. If not, you know, this is where I’m going maybe next year? And it changed everything. You know, there’s that saying, you can’t change your destination overnight, but you can change your direction. That singular moment (snaps) changed everything.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that. And you know, and invite everyone who’s listening to think about what’s the vow you want to make? It is interesting that we do make that I mean, we make that public, that public commitment, if we are moving towards the realm of marriage, right? We make that public commitment to the other person and say, this is how I’m going to show up for you. And and I love that practice of but how am I showing up for me? And what’s that vow for me? And so I love that so much. Andre, thank you so much for coming on the show and bringing your insights and your wisdom and your lived experience. I know there are people who are listening who want to learn more about how they can connect with you, learn from you, grow with what you do. So, you know, give us – you ready? Give me the thirty second (laughs) – just kidding, I couldn’t resist.
Andre Young
That’s great.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But what’s the best way for people to learn about the great services you offer, the products that you have and the ways that you can support people not only in their personal leadership, but also their leadership at work? What’s the best way to connect with you?
Andre Young
The best way to connect is You Evolving Now dot com. So it’s Y o u evolvingnow.com you go there everything that you’re looking for is there, whether it’s from free videos. My books are there. So I’ve have four books, two on leadership. The Online Program is there that you can use for your company and onboarding processes and all of that. And obviously, my email, reach out. I love to Zoom with people, I love to get on the chat to say, hey, how are you? Who are you? What would you like to get out of speaking with me today or anything, and let’s chat and build and customize, create and enjoy it. So that’s the that’s the best way that I will say,
Sarah Noll Wilson
Awesome. And we will put as always, all of those, all of those links and, and resources in the show notes for you to check out. Thank you so much for being a part of the show today. I appreciate you. Our guest this week has been Andre Young. And there’s so much insights and practical tips and tricks that he gave us not only for how we can make sure we put ourselves on the calendar, but what does it look like to have those conversations? I particularly love that analogy of what’s the vow to yourself? We give the vows to our our spouses, if that’s our choice, and you know, even to our kids, here’s the commitments we’re going to make. To work. Here’s the commitment I’m making for you the agreement, the contract, but what’s the contract we signed for ourselves? So that is definitely something I’m going to be chewing on is what’s the vow, the vow that I want to make to myself. And we want to hear from you. What resonated? Maybe you want to share with us what vow are you making, what did you think about when we asked the question how do you like to have fun? We would love to hear that so you can send us an email at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. You can also send me a DM on social media where my DMs are always open. And if you’d like to have a conversation about how we can help your team have conversations that matter be sure to reach out to us at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. And if you haven’t already, pick up a copy of my book, Don’t Feed the Elephants! wherever books are sold. And if you’d like to support the show, there’s two ways you can do that. The first is to become a patron of the show. You can do that by going to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where your financial support will support the amazing team that makes this show possible, and you’ll get access to some pretty great swag.
Also, if you haven’t, you can rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. That actually helps the algorithm to help our show be seen more so we can bring on really great guests like Andre Young. I want to do a big shout out to our team that makes this show possible to our producer Nick Wilson, our sound editor Drew Noll, our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant ksn marketing services, and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. And a final thank you to our guest today, Andre Young, he is certainly a motivator. But what I appreciate is that motivation is followed up with really good tips and tricks and practices that we can do so we can show up and lead more powerfully in our lives. So be sure to check out his work. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening for showing up for us and for yourself. And remember, when we change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So be sure to rest, rehydrate and we’ll see you again next week.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.