Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Ryan Dunlap as they discuss Ryan’s conflict strategy firm Conflictish, its mission to help people get comfortable with being uncomfortable, and how he helps his clients find the courage to step into conflict.
Resources Mentioned
- Ryan’s online community, The Ish Factor: https://www.conflictish.com/ishfactor
About Our Guest
With over 20 years of combined law enforcement, ministry, and executive leadership experience, Ryan Dunlap is a highly sought-after conflict and crisis management expert. He is the founder and Chief Conflict Officer at Conflictish, a conflict strategy firm dedicated to helping leaders prevent, respond to, and overcome conflict and crisis challenges. He created The Real Tact Model™, a custom framework for developing conflict competence. To date, he’s coached leaders around the globe and in several industries, including biotech, government, nonprofit, faith-based, healthcare, pharma, education, food & beverage, and commercial construction, helping them to improve their conflict presence.
Ryan is a former SVU Detective, SWAT Hostage Negotiator, and Crisis Intervention Officer who has facilitated hundreds of high-stakes interviews, interrogations, and negotiations. As a Certified DCJS Instructor and Field Training Officer, Ryan has trained and developed hundreds of law enforcement personnel. These combined experiences inform his work as a conflict strategist today. Following a decorated law enforcement career, Ryan served as the Executive Director of Operations of a faith-based organization, overseeing a $20M operation while leading operational readiness and enterprise-wide alignment of teams, processes, and systems. He created & deployed the leadership development program for all operations personnel, providing coaching, career development, and training for current and aspiring senior managers & executive leaders. Ryan previously served as the Executive Director of an anti-human trafficking organization Street Grace for the State of Tennessee, driving the statewide expansion into the state and leading the overall strategy and execution of all statewide programs, operations, and initiatives. Ryan has served in several collateral capacities, including as an expert advisor to state governments, including an appointment to the Georgia Sexual Assault Response Team State Expert Committee and the Tennessee Human Trafficking Advisory Council. Additionally, he served as an adjunct instructor at Oglethorpe University. He currently sits on the Board of Directors for WTCI-PBS Chattanooga and The Chattanooga Chamber of Commerce East Brainerd Council.
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Episode Transcript
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations, where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and with each other. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And I am so excited. The guest this week is one of my moonshot guests. This is somebody who I’ve been following for a while, and I was really excited to get on the show. So let me tell you a little bit about our guest Ryan Dunlap. With more than 20 years of combined law enforcement ministry and executive leadership experience. Ryan Dunlap is a highly sought after conflict and crisis management expert. He is the founder and Chief Conflict Officer at Conflictish, a conflict strategy firm dedicated to helping leaders prevent, respond to, and overcome conflict and crisis challenges. He is the creator of the Real Tact Model, a custom framework for developing conflict competence. To date, he’s coached leaders around the globe in several industries including biotech, government, nonprofit, faith based, healthcare, pharma, education, food and beverage, commercial, he’s worked with them all. So if you’re sitting here listening, you know, like he’s, he can help you. But an important thing to note is that he is a former SVU detective, SWAT hostage negotiator, and crisis intervention officer who has facilitated hundreds of high stake interviews, interrogations and negotiations. As a certified DCJS instructor and field training officer, Ryan has trained and developed hundreds of law enforcement personnel. It is these combined experiences that inform his work as a conflict strategists today. Welcome to the show, Ryan.
Ryan Dunlap
Hey, glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So excited. And you know, just for some context, for our listeners, or – I first, I don’t I mean, at some point, late last year, I got exposed to your work. You, you happened upon – one of your videos on Instagram happened upon my feed. And I remember just being really struck by the content you delivered, how you delivered, the the way that you were able to help people unpack conflict in a just in a way that I hadn’t seen other people talk about it. And then I just became hooked. And so I’m just going to do the shout out for everyone. You should absolutely follow Ryan, wherever you can find him. Watch his videos. I really do think as somebody who has read a ton of books and follows a ton of people in the space, I really think you’re one of the best. And I’m so excited to have you on the show.
Ryan Dunlap
Well, thank you, I certainly appreciate that. It’s been interesting, kind of stepping inside of this skin this season. Because the social media stuff that we’re doing is really it wasn’t supposed to be the business model, right. I’m a, I’m an executive coach and organizational consultant. So I work one on one or with teams, and most of my work is confidential. So I don’t get a chance to talk about it. So I wanted to just put some stuff out there on Instagram share some of the insights that I get from working with my clients or lessons I’ve learned over the years doing negotiations and interrogations. And, man, I went to bed one night with 159 followers and woke up the next day with 10,000. And over the course of I think 29 days, the following on on my profiles went from from, you know, I think it was 400 up to 50,000 in less than a month and then from 50,000 to 100,000 and 100 – that I think we’re just creeping –
Sarah Noll Wilson
You’re over 150,000 Now, right?
Ryan Dunlap
Yeah, combined. Yeah. So you know, TikTok is over 3000, Instagram was around 150 or something like that, I had to stop looking at the numbers, I got a little nervous about it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, you know, it’s funny, because I was like, I’m like, I knew him when he was around 12,000. (laughs) Like, this, this this, this guy isn’t gonna last long at this level. But so so for our audience, you know, obviously I shared your formal bio, what else do you want them to know about you?
Ryan Dunlap
Well, I’ll say that, you know, ministry shaped a lot of what I do, I learned a lot of processes and systems in law enforcement when it comes to navigating difficult conversations. I really think I found the courage to have hard conversations as a police officer, as a detective and negotiator. But what really, I think sets me apart was stepping out of that really dirty world, dealing with all sorts of criminal behavior, especially working special victims, right? And then going directly in the ministry and recognizing that oh, okay, well, compassion and patience and empathy are also tools that I need but didn’t actually have. They weren’t honed, I had them naturally just as a person. But, you know, it took some work to really figure out how to do that well. So ministry is another part of what really influences what I do. Not, you know, from the standpoint of walking into organizations and having faith based conversations, but in terms of giving people room to express themselves. Giving people opportunities to not be their labels, to not be their behavior, right? Those are all important skills that a lot of people in my space don’t possess. So, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I think that one of the things that I resonate so deeply with your style and approach is that very much that focus on the humanity and the grace and the, you know, what does it look like to give ourselves grace in those moments? What does it look like to – when is it appropriate to give grace to other people and just understanding and unpacking the the human condition, if you will? I think that’s one of the things that that very much like connected me is we’re really big on how do we understand the complexity of humans? Because I think sometimes we can oversimplify, we can oversimplify conflict, we can oversimplify people. And there’s mechanisms at play, and there’s lived experiences at play. And there’s, there’s a whole host of things that are, are, you know, coming into the picture. I know, when you and I had connected a few weeks ago, one of the things you said that I really, really loved was that after you meet somebody and have a chance to have a single conversation with them, you’re like, “Thank you for introducing me to your representative. So now who are you really?”
Ryan Dunlap
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that. I love that so much.
Ryan Dunlap
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What – oh, yeah, no, please respond to that.
Ryan Dunlap
Oh, no, no, it’s you know, what was really interesting about stepping out of law enforcement and into executive leadership roles eventually down the road, was how similar executive leaders embody some of the same internal challenges and conflicts that suspects did in an interrogation room.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, say more, because this is okay – this is facinating. I’ve never heard anybody make this connection. So, I’m here to learn.
Ryan Dunlap
Yeah, here’s what was really cool. I would sit in boardrooms, next to high level executive leaders, I was on task forces with elected officials, at every level, right? Up to White House level, ambassadors and things. And I started paying attention to how people were showing up in those conversations. And what I recognized was that they looked just like the suspects that I used to interrogate. In an interrogation room suspects, generally speaking, are afraid of being found out. They’re afraid to admit they need help. And they’re afraid to admit that they’ve done things they weren’t proud of. And you would sit into a boardroom meeting with a CEO or COO or CTO or whatever the you know, the C suite label was or some executive leader and you would look over and say, man, that that guy’s representative is speaking really loudly right now, he’s afraid of being found out. He’s struggling with imposter syndrome. He’s afraid to admit that he’s complicit in the downfall of his organization, he doesn’t want to ask for help, probably because there’s no psychological safety within the organization to do it. And what was really cool as as a negotiator, and as a detective, I honed my skill and my ability to help people find the courage to be honest with themselves about themselves, and to speak and act against their own self interests. Right? In my space, I sold a product that nobody wanted to buy, it was jail time. And I was really good at it. And it was not uncommon for people to shake hands and to give a hug, and to be smiling on the way to jail after an interrogation spending time with me because there was no bad cop. It was it was this, it was a conversation that says, “Man, what would your life look like if you got free from this thing you’re you’re hiding or carrying? How much better could you be on the other end of dealing with the consequences of the behavior that I can’t change.” I can’t change what happened, right? And people would start dreaming out loud in an interrogation, man, you know, I’d be a better father, I’d be a better husband, I’d be a better citizen, I’d do all these things, I’d start my business, I go back to school, whatever the thing was, and I’d say, “Man, you still have time to do all of those things.” And people would start to, you know, make admissions and confessions and deal with their consequences, and then go off and do other things.
I’ll tell you one of the coolest encounters I’ve ever had years ago was someone I arrested. I went back to check on him after he got released from from from prison, and he was doing his own thing. But he started his own business, he opened up a tattoo shop, I’m almost afraid to admit it. But I got one of my first tattoos. My second tattoo was from him, you know? And it was, it was this whole lifecycle of watching this person really work to turn their life around, you know, so I’m permanently marked with this person to work. He wasn’t very good. (laughter) But you know, so yeah, I just think it’s cool to be able to make that connection. And that’s really what helps me in my space now, working with executive leaders is achieved in the same way I did suspects, right. There’s something you got that you’re hiding, but the reason you’re hiding it is probably more or less tied to the environment you’ve come from, your lived experiences, past hurts and traumas and things that you’ve experienced at a high level as a high level leader, because it’s lonely at the top. And so we have to figure things out and we get scrappy, and we don’t necessarily take care of people because we’re trying to survive ourselves and all of those things, if you can peel those layers back and allow the human person to show up and say, man, I just need help learning how to dot dot dot, I find that leaders tend to do very well, on the other end of that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s well, there’s so many, there’s so many rules that we’ve been taught about what it means to be a leader, right. And there’s so many expectations, beliefs, right assumptions we make, and also assumptions, I think, that when we’re a team member, that we expect of our leader to have all the answers, to be all all knowing, to to be cool in every kind of situation, or to maybe to be the Oracle even and that’s, you know, I appreciate because that’s certainly language we use a lot, too is like leadership is lonely, can be very lonely. And, you know, navigating that power and authority and navigating the sort of awesome responsibility in creating that psychologically safe environment is a lot. It’s, you know, hearing you talk, then this was one of the questions I wanted to explore. I actually was thinking about you this weekend, I was at an event down, down in Florida, and I had a gentleman pull me aside afterwards. And I’ll make the connection here in a second, it might not make sense at first. But he said, you know, Sarah, when I was in the military, one of the jobs was that I was the sergeant responsible to go to somebody’s house when a family member, you know, one of the military family members died. And he said that so fundamentally changed me and so fundamentally changed how I view other situations now at work, that that is literally the hardest conversation I’ve ever had to have. And in putting that in perspective, he’s like, I just have a different perspective now, that’s a little bit different than maybe my colleagues who have never experienced something like that. And he’s like, no judgment. And so, so I’m curious to hear from you. I mean, you’ve already talked a little bit about it. But I would imagine that – I’m curious. I’m curious, I guess I’m curious how, you know, doing the work you did as a police officer, hostage negotiator, you know, the interrogator Special Victims Unit. How did that shape and how does that – how do you see that impacting the perspective you have that you bring into the work environment? As compared to maybe somebody like myself, who I only knew that world? So there’s right, sometimes there might be conversations that feel way scary to me that you’re like, this is not actually that big of a deal, but that’s okay. Like, it’s a big deal to you, and I’m gonna help you navigate it. But I’m, I’m just curious to know, know how that shaped you?
Ryan Dunlap
Yeah. So it wasn’t always positive, I’d say there was definitely a performance dip. (chuckles) Right. So in terms of my my humanity, it suffered exponentially on the front end, just as a husband and as a father, because if you can imagine, you know, in a standard eight or 10 hour shift, the work that I did, right, I resonate with the story you shared about your your colleague in Florida, because I typically was the death notification guy, only because I was the only person with the compassionate enough to do it, right. So I gave a lot of death notifications, I was usually the person selected to do that. Or, I can tell you that there are a handful of situations where I was the last person someone saw before they passed away, if you’ve never watched someone die in front of you, that does some things, well, imagine doing that for eight to 10 hours at a shift and then going home and your wife complaining because the kids, you know, weren’t paying attention today, or they threw some Legos or, you know, they bit somebody in pre-K. You know, initially, your your mind goes to invalidation. And you tend to invalidate that thing and say, “That’s not, if you think that’s a problem imagine what I’m carrying, imagine what I’m dealing with.”
And so there was a season where it was difficult to appreciate other people’s pain. And the only way I could solve my my pain point was Novocaine. I call it the Novocaine problem, right? So if you’ve ever been to the dentist and had to get dental work done, you can’t just numb the tooth, you have to numb the whole region. And so we would go to work as police officers, and we would we would apply that emotional and spiritual Novocaine to ourselves, to our persona so we didn’t feel things. The problem is once the procedure is done, once the shift is over, the Novocaine is still there, it takes a couple hours to wear off. You can’t just flip that switch. So you would come home and be emotionally unavailable for your spouse, right? Well, the longer you apply that Novocaine emotionally and spiritually, the longer it stays in your body, the harder it is to metabolize it. And so you would go weeks, months, years, not feeling things and so I tell people all the time that I thought I was becoming strong as a man and as a husband, but it turns out I was just becoming hard. Hard things are inflexible, and they break under pressure, but strong things can bend and still maintain their their shape and their strength and their their continuity. And so I had to make a shift, a pivot and learn how to use those experiences to positively influence other people which you know, ministry helped me do because in ministry, it was a lot of the same things, right, death notification, you’re doing funerals as a pastor, you’re sitting with people during the worst moments of their life. You know, we were doing funerals for babies that passed away and burying loved ones. But I was able to use previous experiences to really just kind of connect on an emotional level or human level with other people.
And I think that’s what makes what I do as a conflict strategist, a little bit different from others. I think most people go into conflict trying to solve problems. And I just try to solve people. I try to figure out people. You know, one of the most powerful questions I’ve ever asked someone that I was coaching was, “What happened to you? Who did it? Like who hurt you?” And to just see the shoulders kind of go down and that person just kind of sit back and say, “Oh, my gosh, you know, life did this, to me, this isn’t who I am. It’s just, it’s how I’m showing up.” You know, I think those lived experiences allow you to recognize, hey, I became someone I wasn’t because of what I was exposed to, which means you probably became someone you’re not because of what you’ve been exposed to. So if we allow ourselves to both be human for a moment, and talk about the thing that that we’re doing, that isn’t connected to our identity, we can probably do some really good work to improve how we show up when things are blowing up, which is kind of my one of my sayings, right? I want to improve how you show up and things are blowing up help you get your ish together. So yeah, I mean, I don’t know if that answers your question. I hope it does. But it shaped me negatively at first, but it gave me a different perspective through which to to see the world moving forward.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing all of that. And I, again, I think as people who are listening, who maybe are just discovering, you know, through through this conversation, they’re going to see what I experienced, which was is this feels very, very different. And not always being able to put my finger on why it felt so different. And I think that, you know, in our conversation, one of the things that I really appreciated about your approach, and when you’re working with whether it’s working with leaders or teams, and right, just really recognizing the people in the humans is you deal with the conflict internally first. And I think that, you know, so often it’s that and I really appreciate your language of, you know, what, what are you doing that’s outside of your identity? Right? What are those behaviors? How do we create some space to be able to reflect on those, understand those, so then we can hopefully try to change them. Because I don’t know how many times a day, we just happen on a call this afternoon where somebody goes, I mean, our leaders have really good intentions, they really want to do well. And yet, sometimes they’re showing up and behaving in ways that are that are unproductive. Talk to, you know, I want to unpack a little bit about your approach when you’re working. And I’m not necessarily asking, like, share all of your trade secrets or anything like that, or, but just you know, what, you know, when – well, let me let me flip it actually. For people who are listening, you know, part of the intent of the show is to offer tools, or questions or reflections or strategies for how we can think differently. So, so talk to us first about why is it so important when we think about building this muscle up of navigating conflict differently to start with our internal conflict? And even just what does that mean to you? How do you define that for folks?
Ryan Dunlap
Sure. So conflict, generally speaking, has this progression that’s intrapersonal, which is inside of yourself, and interpersonal, intergroup, and then interorganizational. So that’s kind of the lifecycle that you see. Something inside of you impacted the people around you, and that impacted the teams that you’re on, and then impacts the organization. So it’s just kind of it balloons out, it mushrooms. So my approach really focuses on what I call Level Zero, starting at the very beginning, before before you come to me and say, “Hey, Ryan, what’s a strategy I can use to solve a problem with my boss or with my spouse or whatever.” We don’t do a whole lot of marital stuff in the business, but my wife and I do do marriage coaching as pastors and things through our church, but that’s not a business side of it, but it’s still the same. We used to have this saying during marriage ministry, draw circles, step inside the circle, work on everything inside of the circle. That’s that’s where you start. I don’t even remember where we got that from. Some other pastor coined it, but we, you know, we’ve always used it. And so when I would go into conflict conversations, I would start with the intrapersonal conflict, the latent conflict that was hidden beneath the surface, because nine times out of 10 we were responding out of the thing that we couldn’t see. We were responding out of some secondary or tertiary feeling that was just buried beneath just layers of junk and funk and feelings and emotions. And so it was it was kind of one of those things. I’ll tell you what really kind of opened my eyes to it. I shared this on my Instagram. Back when I wanted to become a hostage negotiator, I had a conversation with a group of negotiators and I asked them, “Hey, what does it take to become a hostage negotiator?” And one of the guys I was talking to said, “How are you most likely to get someone killed?” And I said, “What?!” He says, “How are you most likely to go into a difficult conversation and cost somebody their life, another officer and innocent person? What is it that you’re going to do that’s going to screw this whole thing up and take a bad situation and make it worse?” And I thought about it for a second. I told him, I said, “I’m impatient. I’m impatient. So I know I will, I am likely to abandon an effective process simply because it’s not taking. It’s taking too long, right? It’s not it’s not moving fast enough. And I would invite uncertainty into a certain thing.” And he says, “Great. The answer to the question isn’t nearly as important as making sure you have an answer to the question. I need you to know yourself well enough to know what you’re likely to do, because then we can fix it.”
And that’s really that that’s the foundational mindset I bring with me in a business. It’s your judgments, your prejudices, your biases, heuristics, hypocrisy paradigms, cognitive distortions, all inform how you interpret and decode information from other people. It’s the thing that determines whether or not you step into conflict and operate out of your limbic brain or your prefrontal cortex, whether you’re operating out of emotions, and immediate stimuli for fight, flight, freeze, or fawn, or you can think analytically and reasonably and rationally and you can put things together. And in law enforcement, we talked a lot about auditory exclusion and tunnel vision and time distortions that we would experience when we would experience something called condition black, like you’re just in the midst of conflict, and you’ll lock out. And I actually had that happen to me once. I was, you know, getting shot at, unfortunately, and my wife was my dispatcher, and I’ll never forget the sound of her voice in my ear as I was screaming, you know, shots fired, you know, and she’s like, officer needs assistantance, shots fired eastbound on Pembroke Ave, but you know, I’m just doing the whole pursuit thing, this dude’s dumpinge rounds out the window behind me. And we got to this moment this this standoff moment before I made this internal conversation conversational decision to end this person’s life, which is what I was telling myself. I’m having this internal dialogue with myself, like, hey am I justified if I, if I kill this guy? (chuckles) And it’s like, well, let’s let’s let’s unpack the whole thing. Well, is he shooting at you? Yeah, he’s shooting me. You shoot him is it justified? Yeah, I guess it’s justified. It felt like I had a 45 minute conversation with me. And it must have been half a second, it had to be half a second. And so much happened around me. I didn’t even know it. By the time I snapped out of it. There I was surrounded by backup officers, the gentleman had been subdued to the ground. The gun was holding had been knocked down the street. And, you know, I remember snapping out of this place of like, what just happened, you know, I got lost inside of my head. And so I recognize that it’s very possible for people. Now it might not be at a shootout, it can be your boss says, “Hey, come talk to me in the office today at two o’clock.” You know, and they lock up.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Dunlap
So a lot of it is helping people get out of that limbic brain get out of that, that stuck, so that they can learn how to access the part of the brain that allows them to make informed decisions. And then we invite them to the next level and say, okay, now let’s think about how we can resolve conflict, because most of us have unrealistic expectations and conflict. We have irrational demands when it comes to conflict. And so I need the rationality and a reasonability present. And nobody teaches how to do that. Nobody walks us through the process of getting our heads straight. The people who do let’s be clear, there are people who do it, but not practically, it’s super academic, it’s very heady. It’s, you know, here’s some neuroscience for it. Let’s talk about mirror neurons. And it’s too much, it’s too much, I just, I want to bring it practically. So I understand it academically, I understand the science behind it. I’ve studied it, I’ve applied it, but I give it to my clients in a very practical way so that they can digest it and say, okay, cool. Now I need to recognize, reset, replace, and repeat. That’s my four hour cycle. I’ve got to recognize the thing that I’m doing that’s causing me to show up in conflict the wrong way, I need to reset my behavior with a positive affirmation and acknowledgement, I need to replace it with something better, and then I need to repeat, repeat that cycle. It’s an iterative decision making cycle. If I can make one small decision, it makes the bigger decision so much easier to tackle. So that’s how we try to break conflict down and help people make their world small.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, first, thank you so much for for sharing that story. I mean, I again, I’m sitting here just having a moment of like, I don’t have any idea what that world must have been like and so I’m just sitting with that for a bit and and then also that you know, that awareness of we all have moments of getting locked, right? I’m gonna, I love the example that you shared. I, you know, often will share a joke like, “What’s the worst thing you could send your team members?” Like, don’t send emails that say, like, come by when you have a chance, we need to talk. Like they’re not thinking they’re getting promoted.
Ryan Dunlap
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And and you’re right, like, sometimes it can feel really abstract or to intellectualize instead of just like, what do we do in the moment. And I and, you know, and that’s something that we we’ve observed in our work is that you know, how I appreciate how you said it of, you know, sometimes we’re reacting to something we don’t even realize. You know, I don’t know how many times you know, we’re in conversation with somebody and they’re mad about it, and they can’t even articulate who, what or why they’re mad about it. And to have that, in that, you know, I mean, I think about my own journey of, of growing up as a very much a conflict avoidant Midwest white woman, right. Like we don’t and I’ve had to build that muscle of what am I actually feeling right now? What am I thinking? Sometimes testing my thinking, which, I appreciate it you listing all of those, like, what are the cognitive distortions? What biases might I be bringing in? What, what needs do I have that I don’t even realize are needs in this moment? And I just, I’m reacting because I’m not having them met. But I can’t even articulate that. And I think that so often. So often, I think in this field, what happens is, it’s like, well, just here’s what you need to say. And we just jumped to that. And it’s like, but if we don’t do, if we don’t do that work, one, that then we still won’t even have the conversation like that still won’t happen. Because we haven’t really understood what’s going on or really understood how do we show up in that moment?
Ryan Dunlap
I absolutely reject the scripting. That’s one of the things that I like least in the conflict resolution space is that we too often turn to scripts. And we say, well, just tell me the things to say. And the reason it doesn’t work is because of what we just got done talking about when you are under pressure, your ability to recall the step one, step two, step three, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Here’s the 10 step model.
Ryan Dunlap
You’re not able to think of that. So the first step was to, what was it? Oh, connect. Okay, cool. Hey, my name is Ryan, (stilted) I see you have a problem today. What was the next one? I need to, I need to listen. It’s just it’s too much, right? And so what if what if, instead of remembering a five or 10 step process, I said, “Hey, I want you to go in this conversation, and I want you to be nice. Just be nice.” We can emulate a feeling, we can demonstrate it. And what we know about the way the human brain works and mirror neurons is that people will often start to do the things that we’re doing. So if I, if I speak low and slow and intentionally and I’m being nice, and I’m smiling, other people tend to smile back. If you know, one of the easiest ways to stop someone from yelling is to speak with a whisper. It’s, it’s, it’s one it’s maddening for them.
Sure. Yeah. I was gonna say some people it might make them yell more because they’re like you’re not up here.
I had somebody yell whisper at me one time. I did this during I don’t remember what it was a standoff or something. Not not like a hostage negotiation standoff. But just like a emotional intellectual standoff. This person was like, just screaming and yelling and stuff. And I said, I hear what you’re saying. But I just, I, it’s hard for me to connect with you. when you’re screaming out loud. And I had this angry whisper scream, like, (whispers angrily) “Well, I don’t know what you want me to do better?”
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Ryan Dunlap
But it worked. It got them to the point where they weren’t yelling anymore. And I said, “Hey, I appreciate that. I know, it’s not comfortable, and you’ve got things you’re trying to let out. And the easiest way to do that is through your mouth. But, you know, I just I can’t connect with you when you’re screaming like that, you know?” So yeah, it’s just, it’s about recognizing how your brain works and circumventing a cycle. And we are developed from the factory to fail under pressure.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Ryan Dunlap
Like, let’s be clear here. This is our main fight, fight, freeze, or fawn are not great mechanisms. It’s a design flaw. So you’ve got to learn to operate within the system and like, you’re not going to rise to the occasion, you are going to fall to the lowest level of your preparation.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right. And so, (laughs) I love your – there’s gonna be a quote slide. (laughter) I’m gonna be quoting you and I’m gonna be, Ryan Dunlap… and here it is. But it’s, it’s so true. It’s so true. And even, you know, I was just talking to somebody today I said, “Let’s be real, under stress we are defaulting to our oldest patterns that were created when we were children.
Ryan Dunlap
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And depending on our family, our growing up, right, all of those things likely was not healthy. You know? So I mean, I’m like, when we see this behavior, like that makes sense that you know, you’re sitting there going, how can a 50-year-old person throws a tantrum or whatever I’m like, because they’re not operating like they’re operating in the most primitive and you know, in that default, we’re just setup like our factory default is failure under stress. So, so accurate. It’s a, and I think I think even even helping people understand that I think that’s one of the things that’s been – on my own journey of building deeper relationships, building more honest relationships, and in both with myself and with other people, right, it goes, goes all of the ways. One of the things that that has helped me was just understanding some of that, right, understanding some of that, that that biology, which is like it relieves some of the power, right, or it relieves some of the judgment that I made on myself or on other people. And it was like, oh, I could see it differently now, instead of just seeing that you’re frustrated, it’s okay. Like your, your brains flooded right now. I might not agree right with with your perspective, I might not appreciate your behavior in that moment of stress, you know, response, which I, I just want to real quickly. You know, I always love coming back to when people use phrases, because I’m with you that scripting is never the case. But sometimes I love to have like, what’s like the one phrase that I can just be like, don’t forget this, like, this can be a moment of like, I loved your language of I can’t connect with you. I can’t connect with you, while you’re yelling with me. It’s such a like, that’s simple. And that’s something that if you practice, you know, potentially, it’s kind of the maybe another phrase for me is always like, hey, it’s okay, that you’re upset right now, what’s not okay, is this. Like, I can honor the emotion and coach the behavior at the same time.
Ryan Dunlap
So I mean, it’s, it’s hard, I guess I have a lot of those. Well, my wife and I were affectionately referred to as Ryan-isms, I just can’t, I can’t recall them in the moment, it’s so difficult, they just come out at different times. Like, as a coach, I typically take on a very paternal role. And you know, one thing that I find myself saying quite, quite often to my clients, who primarily my female clients, is you’re enough. Like, I need you to know that at the onset, we’re not going to be able to get to where we have to go if your self worth is eroded. Self worth and self esteem aren’t the same thing. So I totally understand your need for external validation to build your self esteem, but self worth, the story, you’re telling yourself about yourself. Like, I just got to tell you, if you didn’t hear it today, you’re doing really well, you’re enough, you’re good enough. And you’ve got what it takes to get here to get wherever you’re going. And that’s kind of it’s been a lightbulb moment for people not because I’m special, or it came from me, but because people go so long not hearing it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(exhales)
Ryan Dunlap
And we do we build, we beat ourselves up with these hypocrisy paradigms, because I believe this thing, but I’m doing this other thing over here. And there’s this transgression compliance issue that happens in our mind that says, okay, well, I believe in this thing, but I didn’t do it. Now. I’ve got to correct the behavior. But we do it out of this guilt place.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, this shame, we shame ourselves.
Ryan Dunlap
It’s shame. So it’s not opportunistic. It’s not optimistic. It’s it’s purely pessimism like, oh, gosh, well, finally, I got my stuff together, you know? So like, hey, no, you’re like, one of my clients was crying, saying, “I can’t believe,” what did he say? “I can’t believe. I don’t recognize myself. I can’t believe I got here.” Right. You know, and this person was, I think in the 60s, 61 years old, he says, “I’m 61 years old, I should know better.” That’s what he said, “I should know better.” And I said, you failed in one area of your life in only one, you fail to design in failure. That’s it. Like you have to expect that things aren’t always going to work and you’re operating out of this perfectionist mindset. And what you really ought to be doing is operating out of a mindset of excellence. Did you do your best with what you knew and what you had available to you in the moment? Yes, okay, conflict came and we can fix that. But don’t beat yourself up because it wasn’t perfect. There is no measure for perfection that you are expected to hit. The only thing you failed to do was failing to give yourself enough grace to fail. That was it. So it’s those things that – I had another client I was talking to one time who was beating themselves up because they had a really bad habit that they were trying to break and I won’t go into detail, but they had a really bad personal habit that they were trying to get rid of and just crying and saying, “I can’t believe I’m made this way. Why would God make me this way with this addictive personality? I just, I can’t shake it.” And I said, you know, here’s the reframe what you’re describing as a design flaw I see as a design feature. Like, if you think about it, a lot of people struggle with the ability to be able to hyper focus on anything for a really long period of time. Now you’ve, unfortunately, been hyper focusing on something that’s not good for you. But if you took that energy and you applied it to something else, how much further could you get than other people? Because you’ve proven that you can hyper focus on things, you can do it for hours at a time. And so it was kind of that opportunity for them to even maintain dignity, see themselves differently for a moment and say, okay, wait a minute, I can hyper focus on something for a long time. I’m not happy about what I’m focusing on. But –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ryan Dunlap
But also, what if it was textbooks? Or what if it, what if it was research? Or what if it was these other things, and it was a moment for that person to say, hmm, so there’s goodness in me? And it’s not, it’s not who I am, it’s what I’m doing. So if I change what I’m doing, I can be more in alignment with, with who I see myself as? Yeah, and then we’re getting to that self worth side again. The more we fail to live up to our own internal sense of who we are, like this constructed identity, our representative, our curated personas, the, the worst job we do a living up to that the more our self worth is impacted. Right? But a lot of times it’s not impacted for truth. It’s, it’s for things that are outside of reality, things that aren’t true. And so we want to separate the lies we’re telling ourselves from the reality and say, okay, well, who are you really? And, okay, so what’s one thing we can do today to move you closer to walking in that reality. And so we get really clear about what the behavior is. And that’s, that’s recognizing, you know, resetting, replacing and repeating. And that’s, that’s how we get there. It’s one obstacle at a time to iterative, it’s slow, it’s intentional, but it’s, it’s impactful.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I would, I would imagine that you also encounter whether it’s through the professional work you do, or the minister, ministry work you do that some people don’t even know who they are. Because, –
Ryan Dunlap
Oh gosh.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, I mean, because the rules, right, the rules have of me as a woman, of me being Midwestern, right. And this is something Nick and I talk about a lot is just how all of these expectations and, and rules that have been created for who you’re supposed to be, how you’re supposed to show up that sometimes it’s like, I don’t even like people are like, I don’t even know who I am. Like, I don’t even know what I want. I don’t even know what I want to be when I grow up, like I just I’ve – right, I’ve just been on autopilot. I’ve been on autopilot with what culture expects me and my community expects of me, what my family expects of me, what my team expects of me. And that, that can be a real challenge in place of like, I don’t even know, you know, anytime someone, anytime somebody, this is just the story I tell myself, when someone says to me, I love how authentic you are, I realized that it’s not actually about me, but there’s some desire for them to be able to be able to express themselves, however, that whatever that looks like, right?
Ryan Dunlap
Yes, you hit it. So the Real Tech Model, I created the eight principles in the Real Tech Model. The third principle we talk about, or the third skill we have to perfect as leaders, is authenticity. And what I what I talk about that in that space is a phenomenon I call selfish authenticity. And it’s what happens when we’re too much of ourselves, so much so that other people don’t have the freedom to be themselves.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I’m just a jerk, you can’t change me, sorry, this is just who I am. Suck it up.
Ryan Dunlap
Exactly. One of the things that I’ve landed on for a long time, oh, man, I got into a big argument in grad school with my professor about this. And I said, I don’t believe that authentic leadership is even possible. Because in order for me to be authentic, I have to be true to myself. But as a leader, I have to help other people be true to themselves. So how do I do both at the same time? And really, when we say authentic leadership, what we’re really saying is genuine. I need to see the best parts of you as a leader so that I can do my best to pull out the best in me, that’s my job. My job as an authentic leader, if we can use that term, is to help you feel safe enough to be the most authentic version of yourself. It’s creating space for other people. That’s the hard thing because let’s be 100% transparent. If as a leader in my authentic skin, I was results oriented and scared with impostor syndrome and I led with that because I wanted to be authentic and I said, “Hey guys, what’s going on? Welcome to the meeting. I have no idea what I’m doing here. I really don’t feel like I belong. And I don’t like people too much. I’m really results oriented. And I prefer that we just kind of lock it in. So don’t call me unless something’s broken and this is going to be great.” I would be fired, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughs)
Ryan Dunlap
If my if my retort if my rebuttal was, but I’m being authentic, I’d be fired. Because people don’t actually want us to be authentic, they want us to be genuine. They want us to be approachable. I want you to be nice, but not too nice, Sarah. That’s, that’s a crime. Right? (laughs) I don’t I don’t want too nice. There’s barriers and boundaries here. I want you to be an effective communicator, but don’t over communicate, I want you to be transparent, but I don’t want you to be vulnerable. But we’ve as leaders, and this is the problem, we have problems, we have challenges that we’re contending with. And we don’t typically have people we can be open and honest with.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right.
Ryan Dunlap
So that’s why we say it’s lonely at the top, because you have to put on that mask, you have to put on that representative, you have to curate yourself and go out before people otherwise you will be removed from your position. And you will be replaced with someone who lies better than you do. You know?
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) That’s a phrase, right there.
Ryan Dunlap
Well, I mean, it is what it is. We’re all liars.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So it’s right. Absolutely. It is no, it’s so true. And it’s – yeah, it is always interesting. I always joke like, I mean, if your authentic self is a jerk, don’t do that. (laughs)
Ryan Dunlap
Yeah, don’t do that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, like, if you’re, if who you are is smothering, silencing other people than that’s, that’s a problem. And, and I do and you know, and and it’s interesting, because, you know, with like, you know, building trust, some level of authenticity. Are you who you say you are, right.
Ryan Dunlap
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Which maybe that’s how you define being genuine. Like, like, are you who you say you are? Because we have such good, bullshit meters.
Ryan Dunlap
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Of like, mmm, you say this, but all of your behavior show otherwise.
Ryan Dunlap
Do I believe you? Do I trust you? Can I connect with you? Am I safe in your care? All of those things, on top of the fact that who we are authentically includes a combination of our internal restraint mechanism. And I think what happens is when people say the word authenticity, they in the back of their mind, they think of their most unhinged self. But that’s not who you are authentically. Who you are authentically is who you want to be, coupled with who you know you can’t be. It’s both.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh yeah!
Ryan Dunlap
It’s exercising restraint. So you, we all have different levels of restraint. And so I think that’s why some people have given the word authenticity a bad rap, right? Because we can make jokes about it like we did previously. But the reality of it is, it’s the balance of who you are, who you want to be, but also who you know you can’t be. It’s restraint and –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Or don’t want to be, right?
Ryan Dunlap
Yeah, yeah, it’s both. It’s not eithe/or it’s both.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Right. I love that. You know I saw an interview with Dr. Tina Opie, she’s an author of Shared Sisterhood. And she, she talked about, I appreciated her her definition of authenticity. And what you’ve done is just sort of taken it a level deeper, right of the way that she defined it, is that who you are on the inside matches who you are on the outside. Right? How you identify yourself and in, in that that layer that you’re adding on is, yeah, and we’re constantly navigating, and who don’t I want to be? Or who can’t I be? You know, I mean, and that gets into a whole, like, (chuckles) that gets into a whole nother discussion of right, the rules of like, no, you can’t be this, like. Well, why not? You know, –
Ryan Dunlap
Social judgement and all that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, absolutely. And also, just like cultural expectations, you know, which, you know, which shows up in how we connect. Which shows up and how we build relationships. And some of those rules then impact how we, how we show up in navigating difficult emotionally charged conversations.
Ryan Dunlap
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
One of the things that I wanted to make sure that, you know, we gave some space to, I’m gonna switch gears, I mean, I just want to keep talking about all of this, but I do want to shift gears because I do, I do want to have this conversation with you is kind of related to all of that. You know, as you talk about a leader and, you know, their job being my job is to create safety, for you to be your best, right, like that, that’s ultimately what, what, what we need to be doing. And, and some of the questions that I like to reflect on both for myself or clients we’re working with is who gets to be safe in your environment, you know, like, really, who gets to be safe? And, and, and what are the things you’re doing that are actually in conflict with the very safety that you want and hope to create? And, you know, one of the things that I’m curious to get your thoughts on is that a lot of the work and research and speakers that are out there who write about conflict, who write about difficult conversations, and I’m connecting this to the kind of the the external, “You can’t.” I was I was talking with somebody and I said, you know, growing up or early in my career, a lesson I learned very quickly is as a woman, you don’t speak up and speak out too strongly. Because at best you’ll be called too passion. At worst, you’ll be called to worse. And, and so much of the research and body of work has been created by white men, right, who have held sort of the most power. And this is something that I realized is a bias even in my own work, right? I’m, I’m writing stuff from the lens of my lived experience, which is as a Midwest white woman who’s working with largely senior leadership teams, which are largely white people. And so how do we – I want to think about my question, I have a couple of layers to this. But sometimes I think there’s a – I struggle with, like, I hear what you’re saying that just be bold, just be that I’m like, but that doesn’t work for me. And in every situation that might not work for you, right? How do we navigate that? You know, what are the considerations, like, as we think about a leader creating a safe space? Yeah, like you speaking up, you have that you have the power, you’re the CEO, you, you can say, whatever. But as a frontline team member, I don’t have that same kind of protection, or as a woman, I don’t have that same kind of protection. Or, as a person of color. There’s a different kind of calculation, right? Lest you be called too aggressive or angry, or whatever the case is. So I just wanted to unpack that with you. Because it’s a, it’s something that I’m aware of is a bias, a blind spot, a limitation in my own work, right, that I keep trying to push beyond, and I think it’s a really important conversation for us to have.
Ryan Dunlap
Yeah, and you’re right, there are a lot of layers to it. It reminds me of a conversation I had with my sister a privileged conversation, if I could say that, you know, I’ve got a twin sister. And she was navigating some challenges at work one day, and we were just kind of talking, she was working in a big, big firm up in New York, and she was having some issues. And I said, “Well, you know, what you ought to do, you ought to just say, dot dot, dot, dot, dot.” Now, this is me for law enforcement, right? So I’m on borrowed positional authority. So I’m used to being able to say and do things that other people don’t normally do. And so she pushed back in the way a twin sister would, she was like, yeah, that’s easy for you to say, but I’m a woman, I can’t, I can’t say and do that. And that was really kind of the first time I had to stop and ask myself, like, does that really matter as much to other people? Because it doesn’t matter to me. And I did realize that it certainly does. And, you know, the reality of it is, it matters to everyone, whether they are aware of it or not. Right. So one of the things that I think is important about the work that I do is, I tell people, I don’t want to change who you are, I just want to change how you show up.
Okay, so if you think about it from the context of just environmental conditions, and the spaces that we occupy, you as a midwestern white woman, and me as a southern black guy, if we’re in the same environment, we have to present ourselves differently. And I’m talking physical environment, if it’s 90 degrees outside and the sun is shining, you will have to cover yourself in that environment differently than I would. Sunscreen, and you know, all of that different stuff, right? If it’s raining outside, you show up 100% yourself, but you cover yourself differently according to that environment, you might wear the right jacket or the right hat or the right umbrella, you’re not changing you, you’re just changing how you show up. And so the, what you have to learn to do is how to read your environment. And what I’ve realized is that it’s hard to read your environment, when you are still blind to yourself, it goes back to the intrapersonal issues. Because we impart so much of ourselves into the people we connect with. And we leave so much of ourselves out in our projected conversations, that a lot of times when we’re talking to people, we’re not talking to them about their reality, we’re talking them about our own. We’re not talking about their issues, we’re talking about our own. So if we can get honest with ourselves and know, oh, snap, this is how I show up? This is what I look like, this is what I sound like, then we can start navigating these critical conversations with other people where their power dynamics might have shifted, when the respect might be different. And we can show up according to our truths and our strengths, right? So you might not be the person who’s the yelling, screaming type. And so how you stand up for yourself might look very different than how I stand up for myself. My level of self restraint is going to be different than yours.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ryan Dunlap
Power, distance, uncertainty, avoidance, restraint, individual versus – individualism versus collectivism, masculinity versus femininity, context, high or low. Like all of these things, if you’re used to if you know anything about Hofstede cultural dimensions, you can apply it in a in a personal context and say, okay, well, where do I stack up in these in these spaces? And because of how I’m uniquely created, you know, the ups and downs here, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ryan Dunlap
My superpower is in this lane here. And so, I always refer to this as speaking to the elephant and so when I go into rooms I recognize exactly who I am when I show up. There are not any that I found so far, young black men speaking on the topic of conflict the way that I do. So when I get invited to speak, for other organizations, it’s usually I am the extreme minority in the room.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.
Ryan Dunlap
That doesn’t bother me, right. But I make sure to point it out. Because if I don’t, it’ll be the thing that everybody else is already telling themselves while my mouth is opening is open. So I might even start a conversation by speaking to that elephant and say, I know what you’re thinking, what’s this young black kid gonna tell me about navigating conflict in my company, or whatever the thing is, right? I get the thing out in front. And one, it makes them feel a little embarrassed internally, right. But also, once we’ve called that thing out, I always say it’s easier to deal with a problem that is out in front of you than the one that is concealed beneath your feet.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ryan Dunlap
So whatever that story is, whatever that narrator is in the back of your mind, or the one you perceived is in the back of somebody else’s mind, call that thing out. Don’t do it from a place of vulnerability. You know, I know, you might not think I’m powerful, because I’m a midwestern white woman. Don’t do that. Right, because I don’t think it’s helpful. It’s accusatory, but if you say something from the standpoint of maybe even from a self deprecating standpoint is, you know, I recognize that there are some things that I don’t know, from your perspective as a midwestern white woman, but there are some things I’ve experienced, that I’m confident, if you allow me to speak into it could change your world, that’s speaking to the elephant. And so I do something similar like that, I don’t know that it’s best for everybody to use their words, sometimes their actions will speak louder. Sometimes we do better in coalition, and we have to have teams.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Dunlap
Other times were better with written word. Um, it’s the process of coaching with me is we will uncover that thing. And we’ll figure it out. And so we get very, very clear on what the differences are, what are the power dynamics? I’m working with a client right now who has a big challenge in their organization with a C suite leader who is a woman and the whole coaching – half of the coaching session was dedicated towards figuring out how do I approach this leader about their problems? How do I tell them about themselves? I need to do the confrontation. I said, okay, well, let’s, let’s talk about power dynamics. Let’s talk about context. Let’s, let’s talk about the and we pulled back the layer and I said, “Well, I want you to ask yourself a couple of questions about your audience, your intended target here. What is she running from? What what, she’s been with the organization for a couple of months. Where did she come from? Who burned her? Why is her guard up? What are her defenses?” And it’s the same thing I do. Why, why is the roomful of 30, you know, 45 to 55 year old white men? Why would they be nervous about having me in a room? What weird experience did they have in Midwest – you know, I’ve met so many people that say, “Yeah, I’ve never actually met a black person before.” It’s crazy in 2023. But okay, I’ll take it, you know. So if your only understanding of me is BET, or, you know, YouTube videos and rappers, I’ve got to address that thing. You know, because otherwise, you’re just taken aback by the fact that I can make you know, I can formulate sentences and speak articulately and people say it as a compliment, but it’s it’s such a backhanded microaggression. Like, Wow, you’re so articulate, like, Well, maybe you should talk like caveman. I don’t know, what do you want man? Like, come on.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, like, please don’t?
Ryan Dunlap
Yeah, but I get it. And honestly, I rarely ever take that stuff personally, because I understand. We only know what we know. And sometimes people don’t change in those spaces. And it’s fine. But yeah, man, navigating power is different. And I think I might not even be the best person to talk about it because I had positional power for so long. But I can tell you, after walking away from that, and having to learn how to develop and cultivate relational power, and power through trust, power through experience, I realized, okay, I had something right. There’s I forgot who coined it. But there’s something called owed respect in earned respect. So owed respect is what you get because of your title, or the time and seat or whatever. And so we give that away. You’re owed that, sir. Right. But the earned respect, that’s the thing that closes the gap. That’s the leader member exchange theory stuff. That’s the dyadic relationship, the in group out group dynamics, that’s the outcome earlier, stay later, work harder. Do more, forget the job description more than minimum. That’s where that comes from. It’s where – it comes from earned respect. And one of the things that I’ve been able to do really well is help my clients cross that bridge, that they came in saying, Man, my team doesn’t respect me. My words don’t have power. Nobody listens to me. So first of all, let’s deal with the fact that you believe what you just said about yourself. So we have to fix that first. Then we can convince somebody else that you’re better than they should, they say you are. You got to start at level zero? We always go back to level zero. And do you believe what they say about you? Well, no, I know. I mean, maybe I don’t maybe I do. Okay, yeah, let’s deal with that voice. Let’s deal with that. And start telling ourselves, I’m good. I’m great. I’m made for this, I’m, I’m perfectly aligned for exactly where – I belong here. You know, I’m the first black person in position of leadership in my company. I’m the first woman in a C suite role in my company, I’m the first graduate of college in my family, whatever that thing, I belong here. You’re enough. Like, you need to know that first. Because half the power needed to go and have these difficult conversations rests in here. It’s called courage. And courage is a really weird thing to build up, man.
Do you know that it’s easier for me to run headlong into a gunfight than it is to have a difficult conversation with a boss? Like, I was mortified, like, somebody would say, come to my office and talk like, ugh. You know, what did I do, but if it was a gunfight, I was fine, why I was prepared for that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.
Ryan Dunlap
I had stress inoculation for that, I was equipped for it. So what if I prepared and equipped in his and stress inoculated you for the things that you’re not currently doing? He’d show up much better, the power dynamic wouldn’t feel like such a giant chasm that you’d have to cross over, you would learn how to look at that boss in that position of authority and and recognize that they’ve got blind spots, and you find the right words, and you could coach up to him. It’s what I did. It’s how I became the first executive role I got was identifying a blind spot on my boss and having the courage to tell them about it. And I said, Hey, you know what? I think I think the, the statement was, Oh, I said, I can tell you’re really, you’re really emotional today. But can I ask a question? He said, what, what do you want to ask? I said, How does your behavior – what does your behavior today give me permission to do with my team? And it was this moment of like, you know, people are watching, you know, kind of a thing. And I said, I just I’m curious if you can react this way under pressure? What does that give me permission to do? And it was the moment he realized, like, oh, man, I’m being watched. And, you know, eventually, I found myself when he retired, I found myself in his seat, which was really cool, because we had a great friendship. You know.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s not it’s the, you know, it’s, I think, sometimes, like, you know, year hear platitudes, like, well just be more confident, well just be more, or this and those are all outputs. Right. You know, when I think of when I think of, when I think of when I’ve had courage, or when I think of is, is I’ve observed people having encouraged, especially in conversations because, yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s incredible, you know, the tension stressful situations we can put ourselves under and be like, yeah, no, that doesn’t bother me. But if I have to tell, I have to tell my sister this, if I have to write like, talk to my colleague in this way, suddenly, it’s that and, and this is actually something we talked about with a previous guest, Maxine, she’s an attorney, Maxine Woods-McMillan, and just that idea of, we have to get really clear about our values.
Ryan Dunlap
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Because when we have clarity, the way that I always think about it, the language I use is when I have clarity, that gives me conviction. And when I have conviction, that’s when I have courage, when I’m really clear. And I also want to go back to, you know, some of the points that you’re making of that internal work too and just for our audiences, connecting it to, to some previous conversations, we had a had a leader, Geoff, on and one of the things he talked about was, you know, how, as humans, we’re always waking up suffering, because of that voice in our head because of, you know, like, the stories we tell ourselves or the beliefs we have, or the rules that we feel like we have to follow and, and he said, it just takes one person to validate that voice. And so how do you like, how do you do that work and, and I so this is what I just absolutely admire, love and appreciate about the way that you’re approaching this because I think, I think if I if I can articulate, you know, what we hope to do, and what I definitely see you all doing is so often we think of conflict as this transaction, like you say this, this phrase, they’ll say, this phrase and the thoughts and what can happen, but it really is, it’s a transformation. And, and that, that having that courage is being really clear about this is who I am and this is what’s important to me. And you know, this is what I’m willing to to speak to and the other thing I think and you know, the story you share about the the boss that you shared the feedback to is, I don’t know where or along the line of just, you know, or are not building the muscle of being just loving with the candor. I’m telling you this because I care about you.
Ryan Dunlap
That’s the difference.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Because I value you.
Ryan Dunlap
Yeah. I think that’s the difference for sure.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And that can be heard by a lot of people.
Ryan Dunlap
Well, a lot of people, they see conflict as a negative thing. And so if I’m having a problem with a boss, or if I’m having a problem with a person, the story they’re telling themselves is I have to now go and confront.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ryan Dunlap
And what I prefer for people to do is when they recognize that there’s a tension that needs to be addressed, they say, Okay, well, now I need to go cover. It’s not confrontation, it’s covering, so out of love, I can have this conversation, out of genuine concern for your well being, I can have this conversation. So it changes even the way we think about the person and the thing we’re doing. And for a longest time, I would tell my wife, I didn’t want to do things in conflict, because I felt like I used to always say, I feel like I’m coddling people, right? I’ve got to listen to their problems. And, and she, you know, it was years. But I developed that language like that I’m not coddling them, I’m covering them. They think they need to be affirmed, they need to be heard, they need to be validated. They need to know that they’re seen. And if we can be the person to do that, then the courage comes, like you said, so you mentioned the process. I don’t remember exactly what you mentioned. But it reminded me of something that I kind of internalize when it comes to like, Where does my courage come from? And it’s this Heart, Head, Hands, Mouth kind of thing, right? So the first thing is really kind of understanding where I’m here, where I’m at here, and this is where conviction comes from. So you mentioned knowing your values. So I do a practice with my clients about developing their executive positioning statement, right? If I ask you, what kind of a leader are you? Right, that you can identify your three top values, your ethical position. Are you deontological? Or are you utilitarian? You know, how do you lean or egoism, ethics, whatever? How do you make decisions, what informs your decision making? We’ll identify your your three strongest values and personal competencies, competencies, and in three areas that you want to improve upon. And at the end of it, you should be able to tell somebody if they ask you what kind of a leader are you, you know exactly what you stand for, you know why you make decisions, you know, what you’re good at, you know what you’re improving on. So, to get there, though, we do this internal work, where we understand what’s the conviction starts with the Heart, this is what I’m convicted about. This is what’s so important to me. But conviction is not enough. We have to make a commitment to do something about it. And that’s when the head gets into play. And we say, Okay, well, what’s the commitment I’m going to make about this conviction? What’s the thing I’m committing to doing? But you can do things out of commitment and not do them well. For example, you can go to the gym, but not work hard when you’re there.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure, yeah.
Ryan Dunlap
You can be convicted about being healthy and committed to going to the gym and still not get healthy. Because the next step is, how do you do it? We do it diligently. And this is where we get to Hands. So how do you want to do it? We set standards for ourselves to do things diligently. And then the last step is Mouth. So Mouth is speaking new truth, if we’ve been speaking lies, speaking new truth over this conviction, commitment and diligence process that we’ve now put in front of ourselves. So I’m going to say, I’m not going to say things like I’m becoming a better communicator, I’m becoming a better leader, or, you know, I’m afraid of conflict, I’m comfortable, conflict averse. We’re going to change our language. And we’re going to do this consistently. And we’re going to say, I’m a strong communicator, I am a strong communicator, I’m on my way, you can say that I’m on my way, I’m growing every day. I’m a strong communicator, and I’m growing every day. If you don’t feel like you have courage, then don’t speak to your fear, speak to your strengths, you know, and we can we can find language, it’s different for everybody, but the Heart, Head, Hands and Mouth, I write it as H three M. And it really is a biblical principle for me, I don’t tell this to people, but it’s him. And it really comes out of the biblical texts when we talk about the the woman with a True Blood who extended her hand to reach out to Jesus to touch the hem of His garment and find healing. And there was a process she had to go through with her heart, her head, her hands and her mouth to just believe that it was possible, right? So even if you don’t ascribe to the to the religious side of it, which I totally understand, do you believe that it’s possible you can improve and get better here? Do you believe that you’ve got the conviction, the commitment, the diligence and the words to support this growth trajectory for yourself? Because if you don’t have it, I can’t help you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.
Ryan Dunlap
Okay, I can’t want you to get better more than you want to get better. I can’t help you step into something that you’re not willing to step into. I can’t want it for you. So we’ve got to go through this hem process. I need you to extend and part of the – Ryan, I’m calling I’m reaching out, I’m extending, right part of that is is is it it’s saying hey, I know I need help. But you have to do the hard work. I provide the framework and the context and the motivation and the science and you know, the academics to support it all to make sure we’re on track. But you have to do the hard work. And then that internal process of doing that work, you’ll find that courage is a byproduct of self awareness, self confidence and demonstrating self control are three pillars. That’s where it comes from self awareness, self confidence, self control, focus on those things and courage comes, you will find you have the courage to do things you didn’t do before, to say things you didn’t say before, to stand on conviction, you wouldn’t stand on before, to stand up for yourself in ways you wouldn’t before. Just quit that job, start a new job, do the entrepreneur, whatever the thing is, it happens over time. Because we’ve been doing the internal work. And these were the things that were holding us back.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Ryan, my friend, I could just, you know, ask you questions and be in conversation with you. But I want to be very respectful of your time. And so as we wind down our time, I mean, there’s, there’s so much I can’t wait to go back and listen and just take notes of like, oh yeah, he said, I like the language he used there, or how he said that. And and I, you know, I guess you know, I think what I hope is for people listening is to take in some of the the pieces that you’re talking about, of you know, whether that’s how you work or just like, what does that mean for you? What does that look like for you? Where might there be some opportunities to go, oh, that’s not aligned? So I am confident that our audience is getting as much out of this as I am sitting here. Now, I do want to ask you our closing question that we ask everyone, because we want to encourage people to think about how are the conversations that are happening with themselves and others shaping them? So as we wind down our time together, Ryan, what is a conversation you’ve had with yourself or with someone else that transformed you?
Ryan Dunlap
Yeah, so I would say, very, very plainly. I had to, I had to, I thought I struggled with imposter syndrome. And it turns out, what I struggled with was an unhealthy habit of comparing myself to other people. So it wasn’t so much that I was telling myself I wasn’t enough or that I was a fraud, it really was recognizing that I had this unrealistic expectation or this pedestal problem that I was placing other people on. And so the conversation I had with myself was to stop comparing myself to other people, and instead compare myself to who I was yesterday. And if I get a little bit better each day, then I’m exactly who I need to be, where I need to be, and how I need to be there. So that was my conversation.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. You’re such you’re such a gift. I’m so, I’m so glad the algorithm put you in my feed, and now you’re in my life. And I get to support your work and learn, learn alongside you and support you. Now there’s so for people who are listening, who are thinking, wow, I really want the opportunity. What are the to work with you or potentially to bring you into their company, what are the best ways for people to connect with you? And then I’d love to hear just a little bit about what are you working on to help the masses more in addition to the videos you’re already creating?
Ryan Dunlap
Yeah, sure. So the the easiest way to work with me is just connect with me on the website. Right now there’s a low barrier to entry plus getting ready to have to change because the demand for my time has been really stretch here recently. But folks go to the website, they sign up for the newsletter, and we can set up discovery calls right from the website, so we can have a one on one and talk about what challenges they’re having. And that’s usually what will set the groundwork for speaking opportunities, training opportunities, or for coaching. But as I said, demand for time is kind of getting to the point where I’m going to have to be a little bit more specific. So something I’m really excited about is, we did mention this at the beginning, the name of my company is Conflictish. And where we help leaders and teams navigate all the “ish” that comes with conflict. So sluggish report, tarnished performance and diminished productivity, we deal with all that “ish”. But to broaden it a little bit, I wanted to include something between the free videos on Instagram and the really high dollar coaching stuff that we’re doing one on one or with teams of companies. And so we’re getting ready to launch a community. And the name of the community is the “Ish Factor”. And the Ish Factor is an online subscription based community, but it’s low cost. It’s when we launch here soon, I think it’s going to launch that day, it’s going to be 10 bucks a month. And then after that, it’s going to go up to $20 a month. And the idea here is that I don’t want you to come and learn from me. I want you to learn from other people who are learning from each other. And so there’s so much community on Instagram and Tiktok so many conversations that happened without me as it should be. And so but this community is a place that we own together. So it’s not subject to the algorithms. It’s a place where leaders can come and say, Man, I have a question how do I fire somebody? How do I have a hard conversation with my upline? I’m struggling with, with this internal issue of self doubt. What does courage look like? Whatever these different things are, you know, what’s a BATNA? Yeah, how do I improve my negotiation skills? Right? We’re going to be tackling all of this live webinars, recorded training, library videos, resources and worksheets we’re creating all for less than $1 a day. And really the reason I wanted there is because I know there are so many leaders who are struggling in organizations that don’t invest in their personal development, and they don’t have the resource for it. And you might not be able to afford 5, 7500 or $10,000 coaching packages with with an executive. But if you can be in community with others who are learning and growing the same way, for 20 bucks a month, you know, $10 a month, if you get in on launch day, then I want to create that. So that’s what we’re getting ready to do. I’ve, I’ve talked to a lot of friends, and they’re building communities too, but they’re like 300 bucks a month. And I was like, gosh, that’s, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Dunlap
I get it. I get you know, I want to do as much as I can, for as little as possible for as many people as possible. And that’s really the model behind this micro coaching platform. And there’ll be opportunities to, to invest in higher levels of maybe one on one or group coaching and things like that. But low barrier to entry. If you’ve got, if you’ve got coffee money each month, you can learn some critical life skills that will improve how you lead yourself and others thru conflict and build your conflict presence, improve how you are responding to conflict around you and your companies and just stand out as a leader. It’s one of the number one skills leaders lack. And if you get good at conflict, if you get really good at conflict, you will stand above everybody else in the pack when it comes to leading organizations because it is a 359 billion dollar problem US companies have not fixed yet. Conflict is everywhere. And there aren’t many people who can fix it.
And being good as good at it doesn’t mean like compliance and control.
Oh gosh, yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I think that’s what I was like, yeah, no, I nip it in the bud. Like, no, that’s okay. No, I mean, that is one way. But that’s not – I cannot endorse, you all are hearing me, I cannot endorse Ryan’s work enough. I follow him on social, sign up for his newsletter, sign up for that community. I will be doing that once that launches. And we’ll be looking forward to finding ways I can continue to support and elevate your work. And I just am really grateful that you’ve said yes to being on the show and sharing so generously with us all, Ryan. I’m just I’m so so grateful that, you know, we all get to exist in a time when you do. So you can help us be better. So thank you.
Ryan Dunlap
Well, hey, I’m grateful for you. And for great questions. And just being really intentional with the conversation and the work that you do. It’s, I get to sit on a lot of podcasts and sometimes there’s not a genuine connection with the work that other people do. Their heart’s not in it, their head is and so to be able to talk to someone who is invested in it for the right reasons, is a breath of fresh air. So I really appreciate the opportunity to connect with you. It’s been it’s been nice.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, we will have you back, if you would, you know, –
Ryan Dunlap
Absolutely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
If we can get on your calendar a bit. You know, like, down the road.
Ryan Dunlap
It’s gonna be a little while. But yeah, we can do that. For sure.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I will look for 2024. We’ll get on your calendar next year.
Ryan Dunlap
We’ll do it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But well, thank you so much, Ryan.
Ryan Dunlap
Pleasure. Absolute pleasure. Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been Ryan Dunlap. And while I have pages of notes, as I often do, you know, one thing I was thinking about was just that that definition of authenticity from the standpoint of it’s who we are, it’s who we want to be and it’s who we can’t be and who we don’t want to be. And I think that’s such an interesting and nuanced way of thinking about that. I’m just that’s something I want to reflect further on. And we want to hear from you. You can reach out to us at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. Or you can find me on social media where my DMs are always open let us know what resonated, what what did you connect with? What what questions came up for you as he listened to our conversation? And if you’d like to find out more about the work we do and how we can help your team have conversations that matter? Check out Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. And if you haven’t already, pick up a copy of my latest book, Don’t Feed the Elephants! wherever books are sold. And if you’d like to support the show, please consider becoming a patron visit patreon.com/conversations on conversations. Where not only your financial support will sustain this podcast and the incredible team that makes it happen. You’ll get access to some pretty great benefits like swag as well. And if you haven’t already, please rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us get the word out so we can continue to bring on really amazing guests like Ryan.
A big thank you to our incredible team that makes this podcast possible to our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, and to our marketing consultant ksn marketing services and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. A big huge final thank you to Ryan Dunlap for showing up today and sharing so powerfully and beautifully to help us be able to think about conflict differently. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and each other, we can change the world. I’ll see you next week. Please be sure to rest and rehydrate.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.