Episode 056: A Conversation on Cultures of Avoidance with Michelle Love-Day

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Michelle Love-Day as they explore some of the factors that can create a culture of avoidance, and offer some tips and resources to help people step forward and challenge such a culture.

Resources Mentioned

• Farah Harris’s book (mentioned a couple times in conversation): https://www.amazon.com/Color-Emotional-Intelligence-Elevating-Inequities/dp/B0C2SD221Z
• Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss What Matters Most: https://a.co/d/2wFIsU1
• Michelle’s TEDx talk: https://youtu.be/kMJrTXuq3bY

About Our Guest

Michelle Love-Day has been an educator for 22 years. She was a 2nd grade teacher, Literacy Coach, Principal, and Associate Director of Educational Equity for Granite School District. In March 2020, she went back to Jordan School District and is now Director of the Language and Culture Services Department. She has various licenses and certificates in ESL, Gifted Education, Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion. Michelle has worked with teachers to inspire, motivate and encourage. She shares information and ways parents can work with schools, advocate for their children, and how they can assist in creating a rich diverse literacy environment at home and in school. As she began to see the need for black students in Utah, she created an online virtual academy called RISE, where students learn their Black History. She is passionate about schools being student focused, equitable, and a place where all students feel that they are welcomed and have an adult they can believe in and who believes in them.

Website | LinkedIn | Facebook | Instagram (M.Love-Day Consulting) | Instagram (Rise Virtual Academy)

Transcript

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and each other. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson and as you can hear the smile in my voice, I’m so excited for this week’s guest. So joining me today is Michelle Love-Day. And together we’re going to be talking about cultures of avoidance and why they’re harmful, why they’re so pervasive and what are some of the things we can do. So this is a topic that’s near and dear to my heart, but I really value Michelle’s perspective on this. So a little bit about Michelle before I bring her on, and give you all the chance to love on her as much as I love her. Michelle Love-Day has been an educator for 22 years, she was a second grade teacher, literacy coach, principal and Associate Director of Educational Equity for Granite School Districts. In March of 2020. She went back to Jordan’s School District and is now the Director of Language and Culture Services Department. She has various licenses and certificates in ESL, Gifted Education, Equity, Diversity and Inclusion. Michelle has worked with teachers to inspire, motivate and encourage. She shares information and ways parents can work with schools, advocate for their children, and how they can assist in creating a rich, diverse literacy environment at home and at school. And as she began to see the need for black students in Utah, she created an online virtual academy called Rise, where students learn their black history, she is passionate about schools being student focused, equitable, and a place where all students feel that they are welcomed and have an adult they can believe in and who believes in them. That is such a, that last sentence is a powerful purpose statement, and also just a needed thing in our world today. So Michelle, welcome to the show.

Michelle Love-Day
It’s so good to be here. Thank you. I’m so glad that we have stayed in contact this whole – this has been a year now that we’ve been friends.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Michelle Love-Day
A year and two months that we’ve been going together.

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laugh) Is that our anniversary?

Michelle Love-Day
Yes, March is our anniversary.

Sarah Noll Wilson
So what else before we get into how we know each other and digging into this topic a little bit further, what else would you like folks to know about you?

Michelle Love-Day
You know, I was doing a dive, I had to submit my resume for something. And it’s always awkward. Every time I hear that, you know, being read aloud. I’m like, I just started teaching a year ago, but I have not. And, and I looked at it and I thought oh my goodness. 20 of my 23 years, as I’m going into 23 years now of teaching have been spent out of my home state in Utah. And I’ve been navigating Utah’s education, culture now for 20 years. And I think the biggest projection that got me into administration was because I didn’t see representation for students in the districts. And that’s what got me out of the classroom. And so I think, continually navigating spaces where black and brown people are not, is my norm. And I’m eternally grateful for those advocates and people that I’ve met along the way that cheer me on, but more than cheer me on, they actually use their voice to elevate things in spaces that need to be elevated for marginalized populations. And so I didn’t get here by myself. And so I’m super grateful to all those people for the work that I’ve been able to do, and yeah, and the good trouble I’ve been able to get in.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, we, I can’t remember where our paths initially crossed. But –

Michelle Love-Day
Well, I do.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You attended the Utah Museum and Arts event a couple of years ago.

Michelle Love-Day
Yes, I was part of the change leaders in Utah. My, my side love and things that I’ve done is through the arts. And when I had the time prior to I was acting a lot on stage and just in theater. I serve on a board at one of the local, large regional theatres here. And so one of the change leader meetings was to have you and it was during COVID. And so we had so many professional developments digitally, virtually. And I was just like, Okay, I’m going just to see these people because I haven’t seen them in a while and it was COVID so I just needed to connect with my people. And you started presenting. And one, it was, the topic wasn’t introduced under the guise of EDI Equity, Diversity Inclusion. It was just, you know, the conversations, how to avoid, you know, elephants and things like that. But two things caught me – what you were saying was relevant to the work that I was doing and how I could present this in a comfortable way even though what I talk about is uncomfortable, but then just your level of engagement virtually was outstanding. Like you were the first of a kind to have your presentation engaging. And I thought, oh my goodness, I’ve got to have her come and present to our teachers. And so in March of 2022, yeah, in March of 2022, when we were able to have the opportunity to have a first of its kind conference in our school district. I know like our keynote is going to be Sarah Noll Wilson, she has to be. And so the rest is history.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It is history. But it’s like it’s a, you know, it’s a storied history, because the you know, I think that and this goes to this topic and why it’s so important. The focus of the conference was really on helping the teaching population, which is predominantly white, understand the lived experiences of the Black and Brown and other marginalized students. And, you know, and, and I remember you and I having the conversation of me saying, I don’t know that I’m the right person.

Michelle Love-Day
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And like, and –

Michelle Love-Day
And I’m like, yes you are.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And then, you know, people might argue, right, they might argue on both sides of this. And that’s something that I’ve – one thing I’m learning and continue to learn is in this space of diversity, equity and inclusion is, how do I leverage my privilege, my power in my familiarity, as a white person, to get fellow white folks potentially, on a path, or at least to see that there’s a path and to open the door for, for them to connect with the people they need to be listening to and hearing from. And the one thing that I’ll share just, you know, for folks that are listening is one of the things that was so incredibly – I don’t even know, powerful isn’t even the right – like it doesn’t do it justice, the word – was to hear those students talk about the harm that they’ve experienced, the ways that they’ve been minimized, the ways that they’ve been treated transactionally and have felt invisible, and – which one was like an act of courage for for all of those devastating that it even exist, and we need to have these conversations. And, and also surprising, not surprising, how many of the teachers were like, I had no idea.

Michelle Love-Day
Right. Because their intent as teachers was they were helping the students, right, and their and their idea of students that are speaking a second language or from a different culture, the teacher’s goal was to help the students and with that, unnecessary help students were saying, you’re, you’re diminishing my being at your school. Which is why we, you know, we didn’t base it off of another book called, What I Wish You Knew, –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Michelle Love-Day
And we use those to kind of start the conversation. A lot of times the deficit thinking that teachers have when you’re talking about marginalized groups is they automatically think the poverty spirit, like, there’s no resources for the students, and they don’t have the connections like other students that they’re used to having have. And I wanted to try to navigate them out of that thought proces. I wanted the teachers to realize, these are students that want advanced placement classes. These are students that want to be seen with what they come having being a second language, they’re linguistically gifted. And when you don’t offer their voice, when you don’t give them you know, that so called seat at the table, you’re really ignoring them when you “other” them. You’re really, you know, excluding them. And I think also after having you there, the biggest success was our debrief after and again, you kept saying, “Do you want me there? Do I need to be there?”

Sarah Noll Wilson
Should I be there? Like I’m not, I don’t know how to facilitate these things. But I can certainly support the best way that I can. And

Michelle Love-Day
But I knew having you there. One, it was not me, as a black woman, pushing this conversation with the superintendent, with the assistant superintendent, with the cabinet. It wasn’t me as a black woman, indicating these conversations can’t be avoided anymore.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Michelle Love-Day
And, you know, I go off of the premise of like, I’m used to uncomfortable conversations. I need you to be comfortable having uncomfortable conversations, because the phone calls I’ve received since I’ve started working in this district are very uncomfortable. And I need you to be able to have them for me when I am tapped out, when I am going to go take a nap, and not deal with this for four or five days, but the phone calls come in, you need to be equipped to handle these conversations. It shouldn’t, and it won’t fall all on me and my department all the time, because it’s a district wide thing.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s the you know, and so let’s, you know, let’s start, let’s dig into that idea of cultures of avoidance. I mean, they’re cultures, cultures of avoidance can exist anywhere, they can exist because of cultural reasons. But speaking just specifically in the United States, we know that that’s a very white dominant cultural norm is a culture of avoidance, whether that is intentional, taught, taught intentionally, and then like, interpreted, sometimes it’s unintentional. And, and the thing, you know, it’s interesting, I was, I was actually it was just on a show, or I was I was doing an event about the book. And somebody had asked, “Why did you start writing the book?”d And, and I realized that what prompted me to write the book versus where I’m at, and why this conversation is so important, is I was like, when I started, I just, I want it to get better at having those conversations. But to be honest, I wasn’t aware of the systemic implications of the harm that was happening or the like, ways that that was silencing voices, right. And now I realize, you know, that a culture of avoidance can be and often is as damaging as a culture of aggression. And I think sometimes more so. And I’m curious to get your thoughts on that.

Michelle Love-Day
Yeah. And there was something I saw, you know, when you’re like, you Google things and little quotes come up. And it was like, when we avoid difficult conversations, we trade short term discomfort for long term dysfunctions. And so when you have an organization’s that, that’s avoiding things because you are uncomfortable for the short term, it’s great, oh, I got out of that conversation. But then long term, you have hiring practices that are not operating very well, you have people quitting, you have turnover rates that are higher than normal, because you’re not supporting these marginalized communities, in your office space, whether it’s education or otherwise. And so that, that definitely is one that you don’t want to have long term dysfunction in your organization, just because of that moment of short term discomfort.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Michelle Love-Day
And I don’t know, you know, for me, it could be one of those lessons where it’s like, you don’t talk about money, or politics or race for fear you don’t want to offend anybody. As I’m talking to people, I have learned that I don’t want to offend anybody, I don’t want to say anything wrong. And so I’ve had to reassure those people that I’m in conversations with like, one, I can tell your intent behind your question, your statements, and we have to look at your intent versus your impact. Right. And so if your intent is to get a better idea of who you’re working with, who you’re interviewing for, and who you’re bringing into your organization, or your your platform, those are honest statements and conversations. If I have created a space safe enough for you, that you feel like you can be vulnerable, that’s the perfect time to ask the question. But when you avoid it, you never grow in your experience with people outside of your norm, and we never get challenged in that.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. It’s, uh, you know, a couple of things that are coming up for me is, you know, when I – well, the first thing that’s coming up for me is I actually just had a conversation with my coach, Stephanie chin, so shout out to you again, Steph. Sometimes she makes an appearance via my conversations. But we were just talking about this, how we can fall into this fixed mindset, right, versus a growth mindset of a fixed mindset being I’m a good person, a fixed mindset being that I’m an ally, a fixed mindset being and I’m a good teacher, and I take care of insert whatever core belief it is. And when we’re presented with a perspective that might be different or challenging, or even just offering a possibility that for some folks that can put us into a really a fixed mindset. And to your point that when we aren’t able to have conversations, when we are – when we are unwilling to consider that maybe there’s other ways I could show up. Maybe there’s things I could do that could be fixed, right? Maybe there’s things I’m doing that’s harmful, but maybe there’s just things I could be doing that could be even better. We, yeah, I mean, we we limit ourselves and we limit that impact we make. And I thought that was such an interesting perspective that she had brought up in our conversation.

Michelle Love-Day
I love that. It’s true. Because when I look at just even within the last three years, 2020 brought this cultural paradigm shift. And people could go one of two ways. But at that moment during our COVID time, and the crisis we were in with our, you know, just who we were as humans and our cultural political side, you had to have no empathy or care to understand what was happening, you had to completely turn a blind eye. And, and no one could, no one could, what I appreciated from my neighbor’s, one or two, in particular, were the text messages of questions. One being very poignant. Michelle, I’m sorry, if this is put on you with, you know, stated not the quote directly. But if you can help me understand why this is devastating to the black community, when he doesn’t live in your state, right, like, this is someone that you don’t even know. So, and so that I appreciated that honest question of like, why is this creating such a stress, you know, just related thing and the reaction, because they couldn’t see that. Communities sometimes that are of you know, that are white, they don’t have this outrage that we’ve had year after year, after year, after year, decade after decade after decade. And, and so I appreciated that we were able to sit, you know, we were outside while the kids played in the pool and have conversations for her to gain understanding. And then, the biggest shift was when she then started sharing things on social media to her parties, right? Because her groups of friends are not my groups of friends. And so I started seeing that shift if just information. FYI. Because how can you ignore someone’s story? As a human? I think that’s what captivates many people about the Humans of New York, right? We’re reading those amazing stories and seeing the triumphs over and I don’t know what it’s like to live on the street. But then when I hear X, Y, and Z, how can you diminish those stories? And so when you engage in those conversations, you either walk away un, you know, changed, or it’s too hard, I can’t move forward, so I’m going to ignore it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Michelle Love-Day
And people do choose the latter a lot of times, which is why we’re in this continual fight.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right? Right. It’s the like, you know, it’s, I, I’m a firm believer that when you, when you avoid difficult conversations you don’t, or uncomfortable, right, or emotionally charged, you aren’t just avoiding the conversation, you’re avoiding the – you’re missing out on the opportunity for connection, and –

Michelle Love-Day
Absolutely.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And understanding. And, you know, and one thing when we talk about a culture of avoidance, you know, one of the things that I’ve noticed and I and I, again, as somebody who has continually had to work against her own avoidant nature, what I what I noticed is that, you know, part of it is this false sense of harmony, right? Like, we want to, like there’s this belief that a good work relationship or good work culture – we’ll just talk about work, for example, –

Michelle Love-Day
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, is where, like, there’s peace. (chuckles) There’s this false sense of harmony. And so what happens in a culture of avoidance, what we see is a couple of things. That one, if there are people in that space who are willing to speak up, who are willing to push back, who are willing to provide feedback, that often they can become the target of a lot of vitriol or blaming or right insert, depending on who they are –

Michelle Love-Day
The dramatics. Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
The dramatic, right. They’re complaining, they’re angry. And so like, they tend to take the most arrows I feel like in those organizations, and when you – when we haven’t built up that muscle to emotionally regulate – you know, last week on the show, we had my good friend and colleague Farah Harris and her new book that’s just launched called The Color of Emotional Intelligence, Elevating Self and Social Awareness to Address Inequities. And and that’s one of the things that she talks a lot about in her part three of her book for like ally ship is we have to, for those of us who find ourselves in situation where we have the formal and informal power, where we’re part of the dominant group, is how do we emotionally regulate those challenging like, that emotions that come up? Because when when you’re not used to having those conversations, it can feel like an attack or it can feel so scary. Or even the act of me bringing it up to me – you said it at the beginning like we don’t want to offend anyone and people will go, but if I say that I won’t be like, that won’t be nice.

Michelle Love-Day
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And I was like, but is it nice to like, hide this information from this person is that nice?

Michelle Love-Day
Right, like if I have a booger in my nose, and I’m about to go talk to someone really important, and you saw it, and you didn’t tell me, you have me standing up here looking a fool, for lesser example, right. But when you’re talking about conversations of sexism, you know, you know heterosexism, racism, like all the -isms, it’s not just about race, right? When we talk about our, you know, our idea of financial literacy and where people stand, when we avoid those conversations, it’s not bettering things, and to have them, it’s all it’s like a muscle as you’re talking about it. It truly is a muscle. And I’ve told people multiple times, and things that I’ve read is like, the level of success you’re willing to have, is based off of the number of uncomfortable conversations you engage in. And so if you’re not engaging in uncomfortable conversations, that as a leader, as a manager, as an HR director, as a principal, whatever role you’re leader in, you’re not going to be successful. And so have them. Have it like a muscle. It’s something that you have, you know, when you go to the gym, you have an accountability partner, right? And that person is the one, “How are you eating? And how often did you work out?” Some people even get a trainer. Find someone who can be your, your accountability partner in these conversations. You’re in a boardroom, pick your person. “Hey, Sarah, we’re going to be talking, let me know how I stand up for the women in the room or for the members of the LGBT community. If I sit silent, will you call me out on that? If I say something wrong, will you let me know so I can do better?” The more you build that muscle, the more it becomes comfortable to be uncomfortable, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Michelle Love-Day
Even for me that – I talk about these things all the time, I’m doing trainings all the time with that, I have an accountability partner. Like, let me know if I was, you know, off, like, because sometimes my sarcasm can discolor what I’m saying –

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)

Michelle Love-Day
and then it like completely is wrong. And I’m like, oh, that was not funny. You know, I’ve definitely offended somebody. Check me, call me out. So that we can be better together. And when you have those uncomfortable conversations, I encourage people, if hopefully you have contact with whomever that you’ve had this conversation with later, it’s okay, a week later, 24 hours later, two weeks later to reflect and say, we talked about XYZ the other day, I am so sorry I came in and said this. And you know, sometimes you’re like, oh, I forgot what you said, like, you know, you’ll find out you are stewing on it more than the other person. But when we avoid these conversations, it almost makes it seem like you don’t care. And I challenge people that if you truly do care, step forward in your organization. The status quo is no longer. We’re in 2023. So the I didn’t know philosophy, it’s out, like you literally can Google it as you’re in the meeting. As you’re in the meeting, Is it offensive to blah, blah, blah, like, in real time, you can get assistance from Webmaster Google. And so the I didn’t know is out the window.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Michelle Love-Day
The I didn’t understand is out the window. There’s YouTube. There are TED talks about these things, for you to educate yourself, and moving forward. But when you don’t speak up and have the conversation, you truly are now saying, I don’t care. I don’t care. And I know people are going to be like, but that’s not true. I do care. You cannot not care. There has to be somebody on your newsfeed, a transracial adoptee family that has black children, you can’t turn a blind eye to this and think it’s gonna go away. As much as I love America and our country. We are a dysfunctional family and you can’t turn a blind eye. We can’t fix what’s been broken if we ignore it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, there’s you know, there’s two things I want to go back to that you shared just to highlight. One, you know, one as a practice, but but then to dig in a little bit deeper because this is such a pervasive – again, especially when I think about kind of white dominant culture, particularly from a corporate perspective but it permeates in all, so you know, the first is, you’re just kind of mess up sometimes. And there’s such a, you know, that like, I don’t want to be offensive. I don’t want to say the wrong thing. Somebody at a conference that I have a new elephant for you, and I was like, what is it?And she said, I think I feed the perfectephant.

Michelle Love-Day
Oh my god!

Sarah Noll Wilson
She goes, I won’t have the conversation unless I’m confident that I will be perfect in what I say and how it will be received, and she goes with a smile, and then I just never have the conversation.

Michelle Love-Day
So avoidephant.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And that’s such a, I mean, that’s something that I’ve had to, again, learn and continually push against for myself, but in especially as trying to step in more and doing more from an anti racism perspective of, I’m gonna mess up. And, and the thing that I try to hold on to is, and, but I’ll learn, and I’ll do better next time.

Michelle Love-Day
And think about an infant learning to crawl and walk. They get up and they stumble, and they fall back down. If they never got up again, we would be holding 30-year-old people.

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)

Michelle Love-Day
And they’re heavy. (laughter_)

Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s such a great visual.

Michelle Love-Day
And no one wants to do that. I mean, as parents, we do it in more ways than we want to. Physically –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Michelle Love-Day
But physically we don’t want to that, you know, yeah. So it’s like, if you, you cannot do that perfection piece without practicing. And so if you’re not gonna get up and be willing to fall down and or stub your toe, you’re never gonna get anywhere. And so we need to be as determined as a toddler to make it to the end goal, right? And so with that determination, comes those conversations and those connections. And it’s so true. And you’ve said it many times in your book of just being curious. Being curious is never a bad thing. Of course, as adults we have, we do have to have filters. Yes. We can’t be like a toddler and just shout out whatever we want. (laughter) But with that being said, have some thought to it. Right? There are some things you know that were in conversation. But then when you say it, and you watch people’s reaction, you’re like, oh, did I go too far? Did that cross the line? Was that offensive? I didn’t mean it that way. And that’s real time okay, I respect people more when that happens, as opposed to the person that never says anything.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s a, there’s – I feel like two of the most important muscles we can build, you know, to have really good relationships with other people, to create great work environments, to create a better society, right? I mean, just like level it up is one, just, like you said, just building that muscle for apologizing, and taking the feedback and considering it and saying, you know, yeah, that wasn’t my intention. And I’m sorry that that was the impact it had. I need to sit with it. I need to chew on it. And that doesn’t mean it’s comfort – I, I mean, I think for me, anyway, there are times when I’ve had to apologize or not when I’ve had to, but when I when I’ve chosen to apologize and needed to to repair a relationship, it can be real hard to choke down that ego or it can be real hard, because I do have this belief that I’m a good person. And I, right, like, and I’m a caring person, and I’m an open minded person. And then you realize, like, oh, shit, there’s some stuff in me. Like that I –

Michelle Love-Day
Everyone.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I haven’t addressed or acknowledge or –

Michelle Love-Day
Or experienced or experienced.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yes.

Michelle Love-Day
You have one bad experience and then, right. And so because of that one bad experience, it sticks with you. It’s, it’s normal, it’s completely human, to have a bad experience and then constantly associate it. So then when you’re put in front of another experience, with the same type of situation, to stumble, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Michelle Love-Day
And, and it’s just, it’s human nature, you eat at a restaurant, and that night you get sick, not because of the food, but definitely what do we blame it on? It was food poisoning. I’m never going to that restaurant again. But no, no sis you literally were the only person at the table of ten to get sick. You were carrying a bug and sorry for your loss, you just got sick, try again.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughs)

Michelle Love-Day
And that goes with those conversations. I think the hardest thing for someone that’s been in the dominant culture is to feel like they don’t know it all.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Phew, yeah.

Michelle Love-Day
And that and it’s, and to sit with that. It’s hard. And so when you hear someone’s lived experience and you learn it, you I’ve had a few friends that at 50, they’re learning certain things, and they’re like, I had no idea. How could I have been so blind and then they get into, maybe you have this the apology, the apologyphant.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure. (laughs)

Michelle Love-Day
And then they’re and then they’re, it’s like, they’re constantly apologizing. And I’m like, “Please stop, please.” Like, literally please stop because I wasn’t living in, you know, 1619, so please stop it, please, you didn’t do anything and I didn’t allow it to happen. Or, you know, I didn’t want it to happen. Let’s live in here and now in 2023 and you don’t have to apologize. It’s, it’s okay. And you might stumble, you might meet that one person on that wrong day. And that right time.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Michelle Love-Day
And you might cause them to snap. That’s their perspective. And that’s their moment. But you’ve got to, you’ve got to stand up and walk again and try again.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s, uh, well, that example you shared is such a good example of like, the, the, the white deflectephant, right? The like, I and it’s not, I mean, and I see it happen in other markets, it’s a defense mechanism, but it’s real, it’s a real common one of, you know, I get called out or as I’m learning it, you know, because part of it is like we can center it on our feelings about it, instead of like, no, I need it, I need to sit with that I need to process that I need other places for me to do that. And I think that can be another form of avoidance is, I’m going to put you in a position where now you are trying, you’re having to, like take care of me and my pain and my frustration, and boy, you know, and and I’ll just reference as Farah’s book because it’s so top of mind is she’s like, it’s really hard to be the advocate and the abused.

Michelle Love-Day
It’s exhausting. And Dr. Smith here in Utah, Dr. William Smith, he coined the phrase over a decade ago, that many people use and study and look at, and it’s so true to this day, with Racial Battle Fatigue. When you have a black or brown person, not only making you feel okay, once you realize there were wrongs done, but then they’re still trying to deal with all their issues and all the setbacks that were given. It’s exhausting. It’s mentally, mentally exhausting, when in terms of race, and so when you’re looking at inclusion, you know, you don’t have to be a genius to ask the few questions. When you see policies that are in place that are isolating other people, and there’s no belonging and there’s no inconclusion. It’s a simple question of, “Why are we doing it that way?”

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Michelle Love-Day
“Oh, you know, all we’ve always done it that way.” But why? You know, it doesn’t have to take you to create the thesis as to the solution. But you be the reason why they question their operations. With a simple why. Why do we do it that way? How long have we been doing it that way?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. What’s like, what are we intending to do with that? Like, what’s the what’s really the goal there?

Michelle Love-Day
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s a, there are a couple of things that are coming up for me of, you know, where, where we can go with this conversation. And one of the places that I’m, you know, thinking of is just – for people who are listening, who are like, I struggle with this, like, I get really anxious in these conversations, the emotions get really strong. And, you know, and I know that there’s techniques that I use in those moments, right. So sometimes I just remind myself of one, for me, it’s always like, be curious, like, stay like be courageous. And be courageously curious. Because I mean, and you and I’ve talked about this because it’s like, curiosity is fun when it’s easy, but it’s it’s much more important and necessary when it’s hard.

Michelle Love-Day
Yeah. And people lean on the whole curiosity killed the cat, and it’s like, well, not in this instance, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Right.

Michelle Love-Day
And cats have nine lives so –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, and sometimes, you know, like some – I’ve talked about this on some previous episodes, but especially when it especially when we’re talking about racism, or other conversations around systems of oppression. And when I start to feel uncomfortable, I try to – I, what I call is I right size my discomfort. And what I mean by that is like, it’s you know, yeah, it’s okay that I’m feeling uncomfortable right now. I’m learning something new. I’m realizing I’m having an impact that I didn’t – like that makes sense that I feel uncomfortable. But the right sizing is – not that I want to dismiss my emotions because I’m not a fan of that for anyone – but to just put in perspective that my discomfort in this moment is totally temporary. My discomfort, especially as a white perso,n is I can shut off the news. I can bow out of, right. Like I – that’s a privilege I have to be able to step out of certain conversations, that it’s temporary. And, and does not even compare to the like generational harm. And so part of it is like, in those moments one, see if you can even just catch and notice like, oh, I’m feeling really uncomfortable. And I’m, I’m, I want to fly, I want to fly, I want to get out of here. And what does it look like to go, I’m gonna sit with this discomfort. I’m gonna know that this this discomfort right now is temporary. And what am I learning from this moment? Why? Why is this conversation so hard for me? Why, you know, why does this feel so scary for me? And not in a judgement place, but again, a genuine place of examination of, man I get really triggered when –

Michelle Love-Day
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
somebody says this.

Michelle Love-Day
Yeah. And knowing when those come and having next steps, whether it’s box breathing, or taking a beat and taking a step, it is so necessary. There’s a book. I don’t know the author.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s ok. You can find it and we’ll add it to the shownotes.

Michelle Love-Day
Yes, it’s Difficult Conversations, How To Discuss What Matters Most. And so it’s for leaders, right? And in the book, he’s like, you know, difficult conversations are almost always never about getting the facts right. Right? They’re, they’re about the conflicts that we have in our perceptions, in our interpretations and in our values. So when you bring up the emotions that come and why am I triggered when something is stated? That’s what comes with difficult conversations, it’s you’re feeling a normal reaction of what’s the start of a conversation, because you’re realizing, wait, this conflicts with what I’ve known about poverty. This conflicts with what I know about black people, and and this conflicts with what my grandfather has been telling us for years at the Thanksgiving table. It’s hard. When I went to DC, probably – I love going to that, that place. It’s amazing. And I’ve been so many times. But the one place that I hadn’t been to is the Native American Museum. And so I finally went in April, for the first time, of course, I went to the African American History Museum again, because you can never get enough of that. So shameless plug for that. But going into the native Museum, it was kind of sobering because they did kind of similar things of the trajectory of living in America, but then walking into the room where they had on the left, the right and in front of you, all of the ways we have used and misused the images of native peoples on our commercials, on our butter. And me being from Cleveland, right? How long did it take them to change the baseball team’s name? And I remember one year in 1995, we were at the baseball game, my mom saw a native person and asked, “Why are you so offended by this, being called the Indians?” And the tribal leader shared the facts. And my mom was like, “Yeah, we should probably change that.” Right. And she’s like, “Who am I to question this man’s perception and experience? I never saw it that way. But as a black woman, I didn’t have to. So we need to change this. He’s uncomfortable. I’m uncomfortable.” Right?

And that’s the perception we all need to take. I have this conversation with teachers. I’m sorry, you can’t do that activity. You know, you can’t sing this song. You can’t do this. Well, I’ve been doing it for 10 years. And it’s been wrong for 10 years. (laughter) And I’m just the one to call you out on it. Or we just now notice, or we’ve made changes, there’s growth in what we’ve realized has been wrong. And so now that we recognize that, let’s change it. And I know change is hard for people. I know, it’s hard because you’ve been doing it for 10 years. But in an instant, if someone says to my people, this is offensive. And it definitely challenges what your perceptions were. That’s when you pause and you stop, just for a little bit and sit in that difficulty. And then continue the conversations, ask questions.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Michelle Love-Day
They will be appreciative about it. You will learn a lot and the change is where it occurs. And I think that’s the hard part, right? Because it changes our values. It changes what we thought we knew all along.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.

Michelle Love-Day
And it sucks to be wrong, right? Like, I was right. And dang it. I was wrong. And, and it’s okay. It’s okay, it doesn’t make you lesser of a person to develop that empathy muscle, and the compassion. But we do have to be careful in lending into those new journeys that you take with these conversations, you know, that you don’t get compassion fatigue.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah,

Michelle Love-Day
We don’t have the energy for someone to be just so tired and crying all the time of the atrocities, we need you to get up and walk and move after you’ve learned it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, that and that, I’m so glad that you brought up that, you know, that idea of empathy. Because I think, you know, again, so so many people would never say, “Well, I’m not empathetic.” And I know, one of the ways we always try to tease it out a little bit is, you know, there’s affective empathy, which is actually feeling what the other person is feeling. And so then they go, oh, but I’m not feeling that way. So maybe it’s not true, or I don’t agree with it, or whatever the case is, but it’s that cognitive empathy, that being able to like step in someone else’s shoes, and say, “Am I okay with this? Am I okay with, you know, like, how are they feeling? And just because I’ve never experienced it.” I think that’s the other thing is, just because I’ve never experienced it, it can be really easy to be like – what do I want to say? Like, sometimes we’ll see this just even in our work, like maybe we share feedback that like, a lot of people don’t feel safe with this leader? Well, I’ve never experienced that with them. Like, just because your experience doesn’t match theirs doesn’t make theirs not true.

Michelle Love-Day
Yeah. Yeah. Humans, we all have different experiences and perceptions. And so if that is the case, what do we need to do to make sure we’re connecting with all? And if that’s the case, what can I make sure that I communicate differently? Because, do I need to make sure I effectively say this is my leadership style. And so if this doesn’t work for you, this is where you can comment and provide feedback. It’s important to, to just really take that step back, I think the biggest divide that was seen pre-COVID was in the feminist movement. And, was it 2018 I think, when everybody was wearing the pink hat –

Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh yeah, sure.

Michelle Love-Day
Yeah, it was, you know, pink hats and things like that. And then you would see a lot of black women like, I can’t march with that, because they’re talking about as women what we are encountering, however, as black women we’re encountering this, and they’re ignoring it. And to say that it doesn’t exist as mothers of black sons and daughters. That may not be your world, but it’s existing for us and you’re not hearing us, you’re not moving forward in this movement, to hear us for us to even walk hand in hand and wear our pink hats together. It’s so true. I am not you know, I am not. I am I am very able bodied. Right? I am neurotypical I think, I mean, I don’t know.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I don’t know. I mean I might have some – (laughter)

Michelle Love-Day
The last few days (laughter). I am neurotypical, for the most part, and I’m able bodied, right? I ran track in college, division one. And I don’t know what it’s like to not have the use of my limbs. So I can’t tell someone who doesn’t have all their limbs appropriately, how they should run. I don’t have amputee, I don’t have any of those things. And so when they say to me, I can’t lift my hips to start the way you do. How rude of me to be like, well just do this. It’s not that hard. No, I have to look at adaptations that work for that person, I have to hear that person. Because their experience is just as important as mine. And, and I think as we have that level of empathy, it’s taking that step back. And just realizing everyone’s experiences are not the same, regardless of culture, or location. And so having those constant conversations with people around you are so key. And so it’s just I can’t imagine not asking why.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And then be willing to listen, it’s like I mean, it just and being willing to be changed. I think that’s when, you know, when I, when I think about the sort of deep connection I have with curiosity, it’s like there’s always things you don’t know, there’s just always things you don’t know about yourself, about the world, about other people.

Michelle Love-Day
We’re lifelong learners. As an educator, I can definitely advocate for that. But it’s so true because, as we go into the summer, I was like, you gotta keep reading, gotta keep doing all these things. But we are truly lifelong learners. And there’s been data and statistics that show we learn something new every day.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Michelle Love-Day
So don’t be closed off to learning about others every day. Find something that will cause you to, to question what you thought was the right way and have those new experiences, go to those festivals. We’re outside now, right? We can we can be living. And a lot of people are like, oh, I didn’t know, I could go to the Juneteenth Celebration. I’m like, do you really think? Yes, we need your money. So purchase from the booth. And then come to get some culture for yourself, right?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I love that. I love that as a charge, like, learn something new about someone else, every single day. And if what you learn, makes you a little uncomfortable, see if you can sit with that? See if you can just be present with that. See if you can get curious with that, instead of shutting down and being like, no, no, no, no, no. Michelle, it has been such a treat to have you on the show. And I want to make sure that we – I asked you the question that we ask everyone, since this is the first time you’re on the show. You know, the whole – well first, just thank you for this conversation and the different places we went and the strategies and for people to think about. In the spirit of conversations, what is a conversation you’ve had with yourself or with someone else that was particularly transformative for you?

Michelle Love-Day
Oh, I have a teenage daughter. So yes, pray for me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)

Michelle Love-Day
I – she has challenged me, right to look at my delivery to getting her to do things. And not that, you know, it’s she’s manipulating to get what she wants. It’s more of, that’s not very motivational when you just do this, this and this, I need to know why. And it’s not because I don’t respect you. It’s because I really need to understand the purpose, right? And how every kid is different. My first four, it was just like they did it. So, first three, she’s the fourth. And so really respecting her as a 14 year old and saying, okay, because most times once once I started doing that and say, Hey, I need you to wash the dishes, because we’re leaving for the movies, and I really want to come home to a clean house. Okay, like it was just more of she’s a she’s a why kind of kid. She’s a genius, right? She definitely is very gifted, she’s twice exceptional. And so I have to meet her where her brain is operating. And it’s nothing of disrespect. And so having that conversation just with my little person, I learned from my little person. And and I and I was vulnerable as a mother to be in that way, right? Like I joke all the time. I’m like, well, sweetheart, you’re not gonna get gentle parenting from this side of Cleveland. That’s not happening. But at the same time, I recognize how, yes, I can listen to her if I want the same thing, and how our conversations have definitely been transformed, and what she’s able to provide for me. So yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that example. And what I love about that example is how easy it could be for someone to be like, because I’m mom, or because I’m dad, because I said so.

Michelle Love-Day
I have the authority.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m the boss. Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Love-Day
Easily. But I chose not to sit in that because I want her to come visit me when I’m old.

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Yeah.

Michelle Love-Day
I need her to, she’s so smart. She’s gonna be an engineer or something. And I need – banking on that one.

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laugh) No pressure.

Michelle Love-Day
No pressure. Out of the five, you’re the one that’s gonna bring in. Your other sisters gonna be like designing and going to Paris. Your other sister is gonna be acting or something. You’re the one. (laughter)

Sarah Noll Wilson
Michelle, I always love our conversations. And you know, one thing I will say is that you’re such a lovely person to be in conversation with and to have real conversations with. So for people who are listening, who are interested, maybe in the work you’re doing, maybe in some of the work you do on the side, how they can connect with you, learn more about you, what’s the best way for them to connect with you?

Michelle Love-Day
Yes. Okay. All the socials. Thanks to my husband, I have an Instagram account. So you can follow me at, I believe, it’s M.Love–Day Consulting. So you can just type in Michelle Love-Day on Instagram and my profile there is public. I recently did a TEDx talk of how we can redesign and transform our educational system. So I encourage you to look that up there. And I’m on LinkedIn, but I think I have to accept things. I don’t know how that works. So yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Reach out.

Michelle Love-Day
Yeah, reach out and I’ll do that but Instagram is definitely the freest and public way to go.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and you always post really great content. We will be sure to post your links, as well as a link to your TEDx talk, which is really great. Thank you so much for saying yes and for continuing to do the work you’re doing and joining us today.

Michelle Love-Day
Thank you so much for having me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been Michelle Love-Day and I just always welcomed the opportunity to be in conversation with her. She pushes me, she helps me consider perspectives I haven’t. And, you know, I’ve heard that metaphor about the like, let’s think like a baby and a toddler. But that, that further explanation of, and if they don’t learn now we’re holding up the 30-year-old and they’re heavy. And like it’s a little tongue-in-cheek, but it actually is really powerful when we think about what we’re avoiding, and how heavy that is and how heavy that is not just to us, but to people around us. So that’s just something I’m, I’m going to keep chewing on for myself is when when I’m not stepping into a really important conversation. What weight am I putting, what burden am I putting on other people? And we’d love to hear from you. What resonated for you? You can always reach out to us at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson.com. Or you can find me on social media where my DMs are always open. And if we aren’t connected on LinkedIn, be sure to connect with me on LinkedIn and follow me there. And if you’d like to support the show, it would be really helpful if you rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. Because the number of ratings we get helps us be able to get more exposure and bring on really great guests like Michelle. You can also contribute financially to the show and support the amazing team that makes this show possible by going to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where you can become a patron.

To our incredible team that makes this podcast possible, to our producer Nick Wilson, our sound editor Drew Noll, our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, and our marketing consultant ksn marketing services, and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. Thank you all so much. And a final big wholehearted thank you to Michelle Love-Day for joining us today. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening. And remember when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So I look forward to seeing you next week. Be sure to rest and rehydrate.