Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Ky Matkovich as they discuss apologies, why they can be so difficult, and the importance of considering our own role in any given situation.
About Our Guest
Kyra (Ky) Matkovich brings over 20 years of strategic human resources, employee relations, engagement, talent management, HR partnering, and leadership experience. Her passion is people, and creating meaningful work experiences by helping organizations build effective leaders, as well as HR infrastructure and strategies that result in fun, inspiring and collaborative business solutions aligned with organizational values. Currently, Ky serves as a Principal HR Business Partner for Exact Sciences, supporting the Science Office. She has previously served as a volunteer leader for the Boulder Area HR Association and Wisconsin SHRM State Council. When she isn’t working, Ky enjoys coffee (#HRCoffeeShot), shenanigans (#HRSHenanigans), gardening, cooking and entertaining. She is a 4-year breast cancer survivor, mother to two teenagers, and wife of almost 20 years.
Transcript
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations, where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me this week is my dear dear friend Ky Matkovich. And we’re going to be exploring this idea of humility and apologies and all of the difficulties and necessary, the necessities (laughs) of why that’s so important in relationships. I’m so excited. You know, I feel like you know, Ky with you, I want to say, you know, longtime listener, first time caller, so I’m really excited to have you on the show. (laughter) But okay, for those of you who know, I’m really, I’m excited, but let me tell you in a more serious way about my friend Ky. So Ky brings over 20 years of strategic human resource, employee relations, engagement, talent management, HR partnering and leadership experience. Her passion is people and creating meaningful work experiences by helping organizations build effective leaders, as well as HR infrastructures and strategies that result in fun, inspiring and collaborative business solutions that align with the organizational values. Currently, Ky serves as a principal HR business partner for Exact Sciences supporting the science office. She has previously served as volunteer leader for the Boulder Area HR Association and Wisconsin SHRM State Council. When she isn’t working, Ky enjoys her coffee, hashtag HR coffee shot every morning, there’s some shot of her coffee in some beautiful location. She likes shenanigans, again, hashtag HR shenanigans, gardening, cooking and entertaining. She is a four year breast cancer survivor, mother to two teenagers and a wife of almost 20 years. Ky, welcome to the show! You’re here!
Ky Matkovich
I’m so fangirling right now. I’m so excited to be here. This is just so fun. Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So, so excited for us to dig into this. But before we do that, what else would you like people to know about you?
Ky Matkovich
Golly. I feel like that was my whole bio. And I think if I were to think about like who I am as a person, and why I do what I do, it really comes down to I love people. I mean, I don’t always like them. (laughter) But I love people. And I think everyone is deserving of kindness, gentleness, compassion. And I deeply value relationships and community. And so those are the things that really drive me to do what I do. I really, I think, in business, HR, everything, leadership, everything begins and ends with people. And so that is 100% my my focus, to help people,
Sarah Noll Wilson
Your language of gentleness is lovely and refreshing to think about. What would the workplace look like if we sometimes adopted some perspectives and quality of some gentleness? It’s not, you know, as you were talking, I was realizing that that’s not a word that is often used, you know, when we talk about from a work perspective, but I think there’s something really beautiful about that.
Ky Matkovich
Yeah, and I think if I’m being completely honest, I don’t know that gentleness comes naturally to me. I tend to be just more of a (laughs) I don’t know that aggressive is the right word. But maybe, I mean, I’m pretty assertive, I can be aggressive. And when I see the people who I really look up to, and how they interact and how they show up it, it is an incredible amount of gentleness, just a gentle spirit, and they’re gentle with other people. And I’ve worked really hard to try to learn those skills. I don’t know that I’m super great at it. But I, it’s something that’s really important to me that, you know, everybody’s got their stuff, me included. And it’s so easy to judge where people are and what they’re doing and what they have done and why they’ve done – you know, we always have narratives around those things and I think sometimes just take a step back and be gentle. Just be gentle with people.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that. I think that’s really beautiful. And I appreciate your honesty too of like, and that’s a struggle for me that doesn’t come easy. What, what was your journey in – you know what, talk to us about what your journey has been to come to this place? You know, you’ve gone through a lot of challenges personally, right recently, coming over the hill of breast cancer. You’ve had a storied career over the last 20 plus years. So talk to us about what your journey has been.
Ky Matkovich
Oh, man. I mean, I think one thing I will preface all of this with most of my life, particularly my adult life has been very deliberate. And I think this is something that my husband and I share. And that is, we have a picture of what we want our life to be. And so every decision that we make and where we live, and what jobs we have, and who’s in our circle, and who we are connected with is a very deliberate decision that we make to get closer to that thing that we want, right? And. And so I mean, I’ve worked over 20 years, I think, professionally, I have, I want to say 25 plus years. I started out in more marketing and public relations. And I’ve always been very people-y I like, I like people. I’m very extroverted. I think the older I get, I’m realizing that maybe I’m not as extroverted as I once was, I really value my time alone. But I think what it what made me do the shift to HR, it was sort of an accident, I guess, I always say the HR found me rather than me finding HR. But I think, what I, the thing that I like about what I do in HR, and the growth that I’ve had in HR is because it’s not unlike marketing, I guess, in public relations, but what I see is that I’m spending more time building those relationships internally in an organization. And one of the things that drives me is, you know, we, most people, if you’re working a 40 hour work week, which by the way, that’s a whole other subject, don’t get me started.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) And why we need to change it.
Ky Matkovich
And why we need to change –
Sarah Noll Wilson
I hope that what you’re saying is –
Ky Matkovich
I know, I’m like, I don’t even get me started, I have this conversation all the time, gets me all riled up, but um, you know, for most people, the majority of your time is at work. And one of the things that I, I’m, I want people to have a really positive experience at work. People are sacrificing their time to work for somebody else, or possibly themselves, if they own their business like yourself, but you’re sacrificing time with loved ones, hobbies, you know, community, doing, doing other things. You’re sacrificing those things so that you can, you know, work for somebody else or work towards, you know, whatever your business goals are. And I feel like that sacrifice should be worth it. And I think we’ve all had experiences where we worked for organizations where, you know, we worked our butts off, and we didn’t get recognition, and we weren’t provided with feedback or opportunities, and maybe even treated really poorly. And it just makes you wonder, you know, what, what value does that have? Like, why am I doing this? Right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Ky Matkovich
And, and so I think, you know, as I’ve gotten older and gone through the things that I have, and and the job changes that I’ve had, I have made mistakes along the way. I mean, I always tried to be really deliberate. And there’s times when, you know, I should have listened to sort of that inner intuition. And I didn’t, and I’ve learned, always listen to that. (laughs) It’s like, very, very accurate. You know, I want to, even for myself, like, it’s very important to me that If I’m going to spend the amount of time that I do at work and for somebody else, that it has to mean something to me personally. And it has to be worth the sacrifices that I’m making to not do things outside of, you know, using those 40 hours or whatever, you know, towards something else. And so, I mean, it’s really so you know, I could talk about my prior jobs, I could talk about kind of those things. But I mean, that’s my journey. It’s, it’s, it’s been a very deliberate and thoughtful process about what I want my life to be, what I want my career to be about, and what kind of impact I want to have on other people. And this is not, I don’t care about accolades, I don’t you know, I don’t, I don’t need my name on stuff, I don’t I don’t need any of that what I want is for people to feel valued and love.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Which I think is such a beautiful opening and segue into this topic. And it’s something that you and I connected first with when we first crossed paths on the Twitter, and, you know, and this value of, of caring for people, of building deeper relationships, you know, how do we, how do we, how do we have relationships at work that aren’t just transactional? And how do we strengthen them so to your point, we can feel good and feel like it’s worth it. It is a sacrifice. And I think sometimes we forget that and I think it can be easy for us to forget that as leaders and we can forget that about ourselves is that we’re in saying yes to this we’re saying no to some pretty important, important things. So in the spirit of us exploring this idea of humility and apologizing – when I was preparing, mentally just thinking about this topic this morning. I was thinking, when did I, when did I learn to apologize? And I’m curious, what, was there a situation where, whether it was something you experienced, you observed, that helped you start to see the necessity and the importance of humility and apologies in relationships?
Ky Matkovich
Ah, man, I feel like I need to lay down. (laughter) A heavy question.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You need to get on my couch?
Ky Matkovich
I feel like I just need to kind of look at the ceiling for a second. Wow. Um, I mean, I think I think there were a series of things. I mean, I can think of a few specifics. When I was growing up, or as a young adult, that somebody else modeled that. If I’m being completely transparent and vulnerable, I was not good at that at all for a long time.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Same.
Ky Matkovich
And I think, you know, when I when I think back on stuff, I mean, you know, I don’t, I’m not going to share sob stories right now. But, you know, I had a pretty rough upbringing, in a lot of ways. And I think, you know, looking back on like, the things that motivated me at that time, I always been, like, super ambitious, and I, you know, I always wanted to do really well in school and straight A’s were deal for me, and you know, all these things. And I was, kind of think back and wonder, well, why? Why? You know, I don’t know if we ask ourselves that question enough. But why? Why was that important to me? And when I really kind of dig underneath all the stuff, I think a lot of it was fear, is fear based, you know, afraid of losing something or afraid of not having somebody’s approval, or not earning somebody’s love or something like that. And so and I think as an adult that you carry over, where, you know, the thought process in my head was, if I make a mistake, I don’t want people to know about it, right? Like I I’ll go to great lengths to sort of try to cover that up. And I don’t mean, mistakes of like, you know, I don’t know misplacing something or something like that. They usually have to do with relationships. And I think, when I was in my 20s, you know, I never really subscribed to the whole New Year’s resolution thing. But I would always do it at the end of the year, beginning of the new year, I would sort of do a year in review, you know, how did we do this year? What is it that I want to change? What is it that I want to work on? And it wasn’t a specific goal, but it always had people in mind where – I remember distinctly, I was 26 years old. And I remember the thought that I had was, I just want to be honest. You know, I just wanted to be honest, and it wasn’t, it wasn’t like these, I think everybody just certain extent, maybe, you know, exaggerate a little bit here, like, you know, cover up a little bit there. I mean, to me, it was like the overall thing. It wasn’t just what you’re saying, that may not be completely honest. But it’s also what you’re admitting that might be, you know, or omitting that might be dishonest.
And so that was something that I spent a lot of time thinking about, and then that led into, well, if I’m going to be honest about those things, then I need to be honest with myself and with others about where I’m stumbling and where I’m falling. And what I have found, when I look back on relationships, there was always a little bit of you know, especially if I was the one that was not being very honest about these things, you know, there was a little bit I called it the wake of destruction, you know, there’s a little bit of destruction, right? There was the little chinks that would, you know, land on somebody else’s armor that would cause some challenges with the relationship or whatever. And, you know, it’s one of those things where you can see that and other people really well, it’s really hard to pull, you know, and it is a mirror right? Like you look up and you realize, oh, okay, maybe that’s more me and not them. But it takes it does take a great deal of humility to say, okay, you know what, and I will say this, my husband actually said this yesterday, and I thought this was so brilliant. He said, You know, it’s freeing. It’s freeing, to be honest, it’s freeing to say, I’m human, I make mistakes. I’m not perfect. You know, these are areas that I’m working on. We even made a joke about, you know, that’s not something I’m proud of, I need to work on myself. (laughs)
And, you know, but in all seriousness, that it is those things and so that, you know, I think that has just sort of – I can think of very specific situations and whether that was you know, me, you know, certain members of my family, a best friend that I had for twenty-some years, that the relationship broke pretty severely. And that particular situation was – it wasn’t anything that I did specifically, it was a lack of, you know, communication. And, but you know, it was a loss of a relationship. And, you know, in my mind, I’m thinking, you know, all you had to do was apologize or give somebody the benefit of the doubt, right? And say, Well, I’m not going to judge why you did something, I have it in my head, why maybe you did that. But rather than putting my narrative in there, why didn’t you just ask, you know, what, what happened there? This was my perspective, like, you know, and so I think it’s, when I think about the people that are important in your life, you know, why wouldn’t we be humble? Why wouldn’t we admit where our mistakes are? Why wouldn’t we recognize that maybe our behavior or the words that we say, or, you know, sometimes our actions, you know, kind of just in a general way, why wouldn’t we have some self reflection around how that might negatively impact somebody else, and how then ultimately, it negatively impacts the relationship. And you can take that into your personal relationships, you can take that into your work relationships. You know, think about the people that you work with, that are maybe a little bit egotistical, a little bit arrogant, you know, they don’t, there’s not a lot of humility there. You know, generally, those aren’t necessarily people that you, that you look up to. Right? And they don’t have deep relationships –
Sarah Noll Wilson
That you don’t want to spend time with.
Ky Matkovich
Right, exactly. Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s a, there’s a couple of things that you shared, that I’m curious to expand upon. One, I think that – that intentionality of just being honest, and not just honest with what you are sharing, but also honest with what you haven’t been. And that point you brought up earlier of that maybe you were hesitant to take that ownership, because if you did what what does that mean now for you? What does that mean for your identity? And I know from my personal experience, like you, I wasn’t good at apologizing. I wasn’t good at considering the role I played. Well, let me, no, let me actually, let me rephrase that. I was really good at over apologizing for shit I didn’t need to apologize for. (laughs) Right? Classic Midwest.
Ky Matkovich
Yeah. I was going to say –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Just apologizing for everything.
Ky Matkovich
Everything.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So, right. But like, yeah, but like, not the actual like when it really matters. (laughter) So I just want to be clear, I’m real good at apologizing and saying those words. And, and, and I feel, as I think about my life, it’s really been a relatively new thing in the last 10 years, maybe, of being really intentional of being able to sit with that discomfort and and to check your ego and to say, do I want to, is this relationship important to me? And if it is, if this person in front of me is important to me, why is it so hard for me to take ownership for something I’ve done to them? And I think there’s still a work in progress of building that muscle. But what I have found is, the more situations I’ve opened myself up to, it does get easier, but I don’t know that it’s always easy. You know? What, so okay, there’s a couple paths, I want to go.
Ky Matkovich
Okay.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What does it feel like for you when you mess up and you know, you, you really do need to apologize and own it? What is that, what is that for you?
Ky Matkovich
Oh, man, that is totally a processes. I mean, I guess it kind of depends, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like I feel it now just asking. (laughter) Like, uh, god, I don’t know if you noticed, but my my shoulders hunched, like my whole body dropped just asking.
Ky Matkovich
Man, I tell you, like I think, depending on the situation, you know, it kind of differs from situation to situation. But I think my natural inclination when something happens is, and I think this is human nature, but maybe it’s just me, I don’t know. But I tend to put it immediately into what the other person said or did, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, for sure. That protection.
Ky Matkovich
Yeah, exactly. And what I have realized that, you know, when I’m in those moments, I’m very deliberate about not saying another word. Because sometimes, and this has happened in the past, the next thing out of my mouth, may be even more damaging, right? And so, I’ve worked really hard to be just like, okay, I need to take a second and like, think about this. And when you know, and then you and then all the thoughts of justification. While you were justified in doing that, or saying that for these reasons and everything, but when you really start to peel it all back, you start to realize, you know what, no matter what somebody else did, or what somebody else said, it doesn’t warrant what I said, or did. It doesn’t justify what I said or did, right? Like, I can’t control what other people do. I can’t control how they feel, I can’t control any of those things. But I can control what I’m saying, the words I am choosing, how I show up, my attitudes, my behaviors, you know, all of those things. And, you know, I, it’s just, I think it’s a process where I think, okay, I need to take a step back. And think about what that impact is. And, you know, even though I think in the moment, when I think about my intentions, and when I think about what I was trying to accomplish, I don’t know that what I said or did was incorrect or was a mistake. However, maybe it’s a timing situation. Like this is what we talked about before where, you know, I had a situation where, you know, I needed to share some information with a colleague and I, my intention was, you know, hey, I’ve got some feedback, I need you to hear this because, you know, I see this as a potential stumbling block for you or a challenge, and I want to see you succeed. What I didn’t take into consideration was the timing in which that conversation took place. And when it happened, I was in such a mindset that I needed to get this out. And I was not taking it in consideration whether or not that person was prepared and open to receiving what I was going to say. And I knew in the moment that they were not. But instead of pulling back, I kept going forward. And it was a horrible conversation. And it, you know, I walked away from that, and I felt really, you know, I felt bad. And I was frustrated. And then I got some feedback, kind of through a feedback loop elsewhere, that that person had shared about how I showed up, right? And of course, immediately, I want to be defensive, but then I thought, okay, so here’s a practice that I do. And instead of immediately trying to defend, I start to ask myself, where might this be true?
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that question.
Ky Matkovich
And so when I really started to peel back like, okay, what am I pissed off about? Am I afraid that I’m not going to have their approval? You know, a lot of this stuff is just fear based. But then the other thing is, if that’s how they felt, that was true, their perception, right. And so there was something that I did that helped participate in that. Was it fully me, I don’t know, but I had a role to play in that. Where might that be true? And when I started to peel back the layers, I realized that I had an opportunity to change directions. And I failed to do that. And so the next conversation that I had with that person I started off with, I need to apologize to you. And you know, here, here’s what happened, here’s my intention in showing up in that conversation. I didn’t take into consideration where you were in that moment, and that you were not receptive and that it was not good timing for all of these reasons. And it led to a really unfortunate outcome. And I want you to know that I’m aware of that. I apologize for that. I own that. In the future this is what I would like that to look look like. This relationship that I have with you is really valuable to me, and I want to be a strong partner for you. And it led to this really great conversation, you know, they ended up apologizing to me too, for the role that they played. I don’t know if I had not opened up that door and apologize that that conversation would have taken place otherwise.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s what I – well, thank you for sharing that because I think it’s it’s so powerful for us to hear stories when it doesn’t go well. And powerful for us to hear stories when we’re the ones who are like messed up, you know, because it can be easy to point to the stories too, oh yeah, no, this person – this so I appreciate your vulnerability and honesty. And, and that point you bring up just to validate is what we have found to be true in our work and also the research is if you want to repair a relationship, it has to start from a place of some transparency and ownership. And one of the traps I can see, well there’s lots of traps that I’ve seen people fall into and I want to talk about and explore those with you here in a little bit but that that willingness to cross the bridge. That’s the visual I always think of when I’m, when I’m having to repair a relationship or when somebody is trying to repair relationship with me because of something I’ve said or done, right, that I didn’t realize is it has has to start with some honest, vulnerable ownership. And it might not always turn out that the person will apologize for their role. But what you’re doing is you’re opening the door to reflect and to say, at the end of the day, again, just like you said, so beautifully, I can’t control them. But I’m going to show up with integrity. I’m going to show up aligned with my values, I’m going to, I’m going to do this because this is how I want to show up in this moment. And what we see is so often, exactly how you experienced is that when one person shows up from that place of vulnerability and honesty, it does open the door for the other person to say, me too. And then it actually, often these conversations can solidify a relationship –
Ky Matkovich
Oh, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So much more powerfully. So obviously, ego gets in the way, skills get in the way, we might not know how to do it. What are some of the traps? As somebody who has worked with people in HR, you are often the referee, (laughter) it feels like between conflict. You are somebody who needs to be role modeling what this looks like? What are some of the traps that you see people fall into that gets in their way of this kind of more honest, vulnerable, meaningful conversation and reconciliation?
Ky Matkovich
That’s a really good question. What are some of the traps? I mean, the thing that I’m thinking about that gets in the way most often is unwillingness. It’s, it’s an attitude of, well, it’s not me, it’s them. Right? They’re not, they’re not willing to explore the thought that maybe they had a role. You know, oftentimes, you know, you see kind of similar situations with the same people over and over again. And I think to myself, well, there’s one common denominator here. (laughter) And so you point the finger that all these things always happen to you. It’s like, it might be you. And so, you know, that’s the biggest thing is, you know, an unwillingness. And, I mean, there’s so many other things that could get in the way, it’s, you know, fear, ego. You know, I mean, to me, it all, it always comes back to some some level of fear, right, fear of broken reputation, or, well, this is going to potentially affect my promotion, or my performance, or, you know, whatever the case may be, and, you know, but it’s just a really, it’s defensiveness. It’s this, you know, people trying to justify their behavior, like, why, well, they did this. And so therefore, it justifies why I did. Well, you know, you’re giving people a lot of control over how you’re behaving, right. And so I just really tried to kind of help people break it down to okay, what might this look like? If you were to think about what role you played in that, like, how did you show up, right? Again, it’s, it’s, you can’t control how other people are feeling. You can’t control what they say what they do, or whatever. But it’s like, what you can do is reflect on your own, how did I show up? What were the words that I chose? How did I see? I’m acutely aware, in situations like I, I like being in person or on video, because the nonverbal cues are really important to me. And I can usually see if there’s something that I said like immediately people react, right? They may not say anything, but I see it in their demeanor, I see it in, you know, the facial expressions and those kinds of things. And those are the things that I look for, that make me start to immediately reflect, okay, did that did that hit a nerve in a good way? Or did it hurt hit a nerve in a bad way. And in a good way, that’s great. Like, I’ll keep going. But if it’s a bad way, I oftentimes will just immediately stop and say, Okay, I just said, this, I saw you react, tell me what you’re what you’re feeling and what’s coming up for you?
And so I tried to help people go through that same thing, right. And it’s just trying to help them find safety in being okay with the fact that they may have contributed to that. Right? And then, and we talked about the relationship and how important is that to you? And is it pivotal to, you know, like, is this the relationship with your boss? I mean, you know, you’re kind of, you’re kind of gonna have that. Right. And, and, you know, and again, it’s not, you know, maybe maybe your boss has their own issues. But again, you can’t control that. I mean, I may be able to work with them and kind of coach them through some things and I and I do that, you know, I try to work with both parties and then create a situation where they come together. I do not. I don’t. Sometimes I do. But it’s very rare for me to facilitate a discussion between people who have had disagreements. What I tried to do is equip them with the resources and the tools to be able to come together in a vulnerable way to, to build that relationship themselves. And it’s been pretty successful. I mean, I think, you know, people just need some time to kind of wrap around what they maybe need to do differently or, you know, something like that. But, you know, kind of going back to the pitfalls. I mean, it’s really the defensiveness and unwillingness to participate in that is what gets in the way.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s the I, I can’t second that loudly enough. It’s the (chuckles) when we were at SHRM, actually, and we were doing our pre conference workshop, one of the participants, he was talking about a coworker who particularly challenged with and sort of every tool we were talking about, like, that’s never gonna work with her. Right, like, just everything was slapped down.
Ky Matkovich
Negative.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And so I finally asked him, I said, do you actually want to repair this relationship?
Ky Matkovich
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And he said, no. (laughter) And I was like, then you’re not. Like, it was such. – I mean, I appreciated his honesty. But if you’re not, that that willingness is so important, and sometimes that’s the question I’ll ask people when they’re struggling with somebody is, I’ll ask them, do you, what’s your willingness? Some people, it’s yeah, I don’t like this. I want to figure this out. And other people are like, no, I just, I actually I don’t and, and sometimes that can be an option. But like you said, if depending on our working relationship, let’s just talk about that from a work perspective, well, then we at least need to figure out how to work together with some civility, with some, you know, like, you know, I don’t know, just what does that look like for us to coexist in a way that’s respectful at least even if we aren’t going to repair it. A connection I was making, as you were talking, that I hadn’t thought about, until you were talking about this idea of unwillingness and connecting to that to the humility and the – you cannot be humble, you cannot have humility to consider the role you’ve played, right, without that willingness. And I don’t know, there’s just something about that. Humility can’t come if you’re unwilling. It just can’t.
Ky Matkovich
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, one of the one of the – I’m curious to get your reactions to this. When when folks are in that protective state. And to be clear, I’ve done this this is like I’m telling on myself, too, is they offer the faux apology.
Ky Matkovich
Oh, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. I’m sorry. You felt that way.
Ky Matkovich
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m sorry, you misunderstood me. You know, or you see people in public. Like, it’s always it’s always fascinating when you see, you know, people who got caught on a hot mic saying something just horrible, and sexist, or racist. And they’re like, here’s – but I’m a God fearing man. And I have a daughter, and here’s all the reasons why that can’t be true. And it’s just as terrible faux apology instead of the humility to go. Yeah, I did that. I did that. And that that’s definitely a trap that I see folks will fall into like, I apologize. I go, no you didn’t. You actually you didn’t apologize. You just blamed them for misinterpreting you.
Ky Matkovich
Yeah. It’s pretty passive aggressive, right? For people who behave that way. See, I I’m with you. Not a fan.
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, no, not not. Not a. (chuckles) I won’t talk about my stories. Maybe another day. But I got some stories of some doozies where people are like, I’m sorry, you took it that way. I was like, oh, this is really inappropriate.
Yeah, yeah.
What? You’ve already you know, so things that you’re giving us as like as tools, you know, things how might this be true? A consideration of the role that that we’re playing. And some of the language you’ve even shared in how you approach that conversation, have some beautiful examples. So when, cuz I know I know, for me, I know for me. Particularly when the person is important to me. It, it’s hard. Because like, the last thing I want is to harm that person or to hurt them. And a trap that I’ve had to work through is to not get focused on my intentions. But to just own my impact, right? Me getting clear about my intentions, like that’s for me, that’s not for them. You know, I can just own it. What are some of the best practices you’ve seen, whether it’s things to say, things to focus on, ways to set up the conversation? So let’s start first, from the perspective of bringing this conversation to the table. What would that, what are some of those best practices you’ve seen?
Ky Matkovich
Yeah. I mean, it you – so I mean, I could give you a few scenarios. I mean, certainly, I mean, I could give you a thousand of myself, you know, in that moment where I can be self reflective, but let’s assume, you know, as an HR professional people coming to me. Sometimes this happens, where somebody will come in, they’re like, yeah, I just wanted to chat with you for a second, like this happened. You know, I don’t like it, you know, how can we fix it? And so I’ll kind of, you know, dig into that a little bit. So tell me more about that interaction. And, you know, they’ll tell me about the scenario. And then it’s really about, well, you know, I want you to go talk to that person. It’s like, I don’t think that’s, that’s what I’m gonna do, you know, I’m gonna help you go talk to that person. And then suddenly, they backtrack. Well, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s not that big of a deal.
Ky Matkovich
It’s really not that big of a deal. Then I say, well, that’s, you know, what’s interesting about that is that this happened two weeks ago, and now you’re in my office talking to me about it. So it kind of is a big deal. Right? Like, it’s obviously something that you’ve been thinking about. And so let’s not sweep that under the table, you know, how could you – you know, first of all, what do you want the outcome to be? You know, so let’s start with that. Right? You know, maybe that’s, is this relationship important to you? You know, do you want this to be better? Do you want it to be repaired, whatever the outcome might be, and then we can kind of work backwards. And, you know, again, I think the vast majority of time, people don’t want to have these conversations, because they’re afraid of them, you know, the classic conflict avoidance, right? You know, people just automatically assume, oh, my gosh, if I’m going to give somebody feedback, or I’m going to, you know, engage in this conversation, whether it’s something that I did, or something I thought they did, you know, it’s like, I, I think it’s going to turn into this big, you know, thing is like, what what are you afraid of? What do you think’s gonna happen? You know, what I mean? Could it? Okay.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Maybe.
Ky Matkovich
Sure, it might. You know, but I will tell you, I’ve been doing this a long time. And I can count on one hand, how many times we had a scenario like that where you know, you try to address somebody, and then it just blows way up, right? Like, they completely overreact to it. That’s so rare, it is so rare, nine times out of 10 out of 10. So then oftentimes, you know what, I will try to do then if I if I recognize that that fear is there, I’ll try to swap, like put yourself in their shoes, right? Like, if you did something that upset somebody else, how would you want to hear about it? Would you want to know, right? It’s like, is that important to you? And almost always people will say, well, of course. Okay. How would you like that to occur? Do you want that to come through your boss? Do you want that to come through HR? Well, no, you know, it’s like, I want them to tell me. Okay, great. So now we’re on the same page. So now how can we create an environment where you can have a one on one conversation and set it up? And so now we get into that, okay, now I’m going to approach them. And I think the best way to do this is, it is 100% find that humility within you. And even if you don’t have the words, I think being honest about the fact that you don’t have the words. So if I, you know, if I knew I did something to upset you or hurt you, Sarah, I would, I would call you and I would say, you know, I want to talk to you about something. And I don’t know how to approach this. But I know that I did something that was upsetting to you. And I want to understand what that sounded like to you, what that felt like to you because it’s something that’s important to me to try to avoid in the future. Because the relationship that I have with you is so important that I want to make sure that we can remain, you know, strong partners, colleagues, you know, whatever the case may be. And I find that when you do enter into a conversation with that level of humility, people are much more willing to say, okay, I’m gonna lean into this, because you opened the door, and you’re not you’re not coming at it from a point of you know, what the hell! You know, you’re not going like, oh, my gosh, like, why did you overreact? You know, it’s like, I want to talk to you about, like, you’re not being aggressive, right? You’re not saying, you know, it really is coming from a place of, I’m trying to understand, but I think that there is work that sometimes needs to be done, because a lot of times, depending on what the situation is, there’s a lot of emotion that gets caught up in that.
I had a recent conversation where, you know, I, It’s been several conversations, like every interaction that this person has had with a co-worker has just been really negative. And, and so they’re, you know, the trust is broken. They’re really upset about it. And they’re like, I just need to talk through this. Okay, great. So let’s get on a call. And then they just, they go off on a on a thing and they’re pissed. I mean, you could tell they’re pissed. And so, you know, and then we start talking about okay, well, you know, you’re gonna have a conversation coming up with this person. And so, you know, how do you plan on, you know, maybe addressing this, you know, I like the fact that you want to advocate for yourself and, you know, and those kinds of things, but like, how do you, you know, engage in that. And they, you know, it’s like the tone that they bring is really aggressive. And so I’ll just call that out and say, Okay, so let’s take a deep breath for a second, right? Because the tone in your voice, obviously, I understand that you’re frustrated, I understand that you’re hurt, I understand that you want to defend where you’re coming from. But when you come to a conversation with that kind of aggressive tone, it immediately puts the other person on the defense, and they’re going to meet you at that same level, right? So how can we, you know, help you take a deep breath, like, think about what you you want that – what is your intention, right? Like, what do you want the outcome to be? And how can you enter into that conversation with that goal in mind, and again, tapping into humility and gentility, and those types of things that can then open the conversation to a much more productive, you know, engagement of some sort, whether that’s negotiation of whatever the terms are, or, you know, hey, I know, this is how I showed up. And I understand that this may have had an impact then on how you reacted and, you know, this is how I felt to how you reacted to that. I mean, I think it’s just transparency. And that’s hard. It’s hard. I mean, it does require a lot of vulnerability, but you know, it makes it just makes me wonder, like, why are we so afraid? There’s something that, you know, whether it’s things from childhood, or things that we were, we’ve learned, we were taught, that teach us to do these things, and it just, it makes me sad about that, right? Like, why are we so afraid? Why are we so what do you think the other person is going to do? And at the end of the day, you know, if they do continue to, like, judge you, and they’re really mad at you, and you know, even though you try to apologize, I mean, in the back of my mind, I’m thinking well, then, is that really somebody that, maybe that relationship isn’t what I thought it was.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I mean, you know, it’s the what I see is all those things, right? Either, you know, how we are raised or the culture we are raised in because sometimes it’s well, even defining aggressive, right in Midwest, like, it doesn’t take much heat for us Midwesterners to be like, that’s being aggressive. And east coasters are just like, what the hell are you talking about? I’m just, you know, like, so like, even that can play into it, or – I, I feel like the thing that has been so provocative and profound for me on this journey of trying to have different and deeper relationships. Again, I’ve talked hundreds of times on the show, and you and I’ve talked about, again, growing up as a Midwest, white woman, pushing things under the rug is a skill, very good skill, is how much better the relationship almost always gets, when you’re able to step into that heat together, when you’re able to step into that discomfort. And that was a I was, I was so fortunate to have, and I still am, to have friends in my life, who could call me in, who could tell me when you know, and or I can say like, Hey, we need to talk about that or ouch. And the people in my life that we can dance in this space, even if we’re still figuring it out and learning and sort of, you know, baby stepping in it to it together. They’re the tightest relationships I have. And so I echo that sadness of I get the risk, I get the emotional risk, I get the risk to our brain and get all of that and what’s hard is that if you’ve never experienced what is possible on the other side, when you go through that with somebody, you don’t know that relationship can actually be even better because of that. And so I definitely hear that. I want to go back to one of the things you said the specific language was that that and I’m kind of going further back but I wanted to repeat it because I thought it was really powerful. That point you made about hey, I can tell something that I said didn’t like if it didn’t land right or caused a reaction and what did that what that’s what did that sound like to you? And what did that feel like for you? I think is such a beautiful place of curiosity right – I’m wearing the shirt, but to say like I value you to hear how, how did I impact you and let me understand and learn that I just I thought that was such a beautiful, beautiful language. The other thing that you’ve mentioned a few times in your, the words you’re using, is you you anchoring on the relationships a lot in the language you’re using and that’s something that we always encourage people that this relationship is important to me. I value how we work together, I want to make sure we can continue to move forward. So I wanted to just amplify, as people are listening to some of the examples you’re sharing all of them have had some some language around the value of the relationship, which I think is so important.
Ky Matkovich
In business, I mean, I say this all the time, and maybe to a point to it sounds kind of cliche, but it’s absolutely true. I mean, if you have if you have one employee, if you have one direct report, you’re in the people business.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ky Matkovich
If your business, whether you’re selling something, you’re providing a service, you’re in the people business. You’re either servicing people, or you’re selling something to people, right, like, you’re in the people business. And so wouldn’t it behoove us to focus in on that relationship and everything that we do? Everything that we do. You know, because I mean, to me, that’s the heart of leadership. It’s, you know, if, if you think about, okay, your purpose in business, okay, yes, you want to be revenue making. But, you know, if you, we need to have skilled employees to drive our initiatives and strategies in order to meet our goals in order to meet our revenue, right? Well, you got to have people do I mean, I’ve had leaders that are like, Oh, my gosh, all this leadership stuff. And communication is so disruptive. And really –
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m just a technical person, I’m just an analytical person.
Ky Matkovich
These are just distractions to the stuff that we need to get done. I’m like, I hear that I, you know, let me emphasize with you, but I’m curious, as you say that, you know, you say you say you have things that you need to get done, and you have timelines that you need to meet. Who who’s doing the work? Well, I have a whole team of people. Okay, great. What would happen, if your team was not able to complete those things? Well, then we wouldn’t meet our goal. Okay. People business, right? (laughs) So again, if you’re focused on the relationship, and you’re creating an environment where people are a little bit more vulnerable, and that they’re trusting and that they, you know, come to the table and knowing that, you know, I can suggest something and it’s not going to get knocked down, or I can make a mistake, and I’m not going to be you know, it’s not going to be made a big deal about, wouldn’t that be the kind of environment that people are likely to work a little bit more efficiently, that it’s going to be a little bit more fun, it’s going to be the type of culture that you want to work in. And you can totally make, I mean, there’s enough data out there that shows that there’s a very clear connection to revenue, when those things are present, you know, including then diversity and psychological safety. And like all of these things that are really important. There, it does drive revenue. And so, you know, whether you like it or not, whether you’re a highly technical person or not, relationships are important.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And our ability to then know how to repair those relationships –
Ky Matkovich
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Is equally important.
Ky Matkovich
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Ky, we could talk all day.
Ky Matkovich
We could.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But we don’t have all day.
Ky Matkovich
I know. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
So yeah, I’ll just, you know, but there’s so much that you’ve given us to think about and to chew on and (exhales) yeah. Yeah, I’m just I’m just sitting with the fact that this is such an important skill. And it’s hard. And it’s not easy. You know, I was just talking with a group this week, actually, we talked about repairing relationships. And it’s hard when somebody you value even if it’s not, I mean, it’s it’s difficult when somebody says, hey, ouch. And to sit there and go oof. That, you know, that wasn’t, wasn’t my intent. But I need to own that because this relationship is bigger than that moment. So thank you for coming on and having this conversation with us. As we wind down our time, Ky, I get to ask you the famous last question, what you’ve heard so many other people. So no pressure. No, no, I’m just kidding. I’m just kidding. I’m just teasing you.
Ky Matkovich
Yeah, totally there’s pressure.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, no, I know. No, I’m saying I know you feel it, but I don’t. (laughter) But the question we ask everyone at the end is, what was the conversation you had with yourself or with someone else that was transformative?
Ky Matkovich
You know, it’s so funny. I, I feel like, almost every day, I have a conversation that really makes me think hard about stuff, you know. And I feel really fortunate, and maybe, I mean, I do think about things very deliberately. Like I want to be thoughtful of those things. But going back to, you know, I didn’t answer this clearly at the beginning, because I was saving this to the end. You know, one of the pivotal moments about humility and apology that made me think about these things much more deeply. I mean, goes way back to when I was 16. And that was many, many years ago because I’m way old. I had, I had moved out of the house where I lived with my my mom who was single mom, and we were not we did not have a great relationship. And I moved in with my aunt and uncle, my uncle, my dad’s brother, my dad had passed away when I was really young. I was, I when I moved in with them, like, again, it was one of those things, I was always afraid that I’m gonna make a mistake and make such a big mistake that they would not want me there. And I had just gotten my driver’s license, and I borrowed their car and long story short, I totaled it. I mean, I totaled it, and I was mortified. I’m like, oh, my god, how am I going to tell them this? And I was just like, I just gotta fess up. And so I called, this was like before the days of like cell phones and GPS and stuff like that. So I went to a neighbor’s house, you know, a house that was just a total stranger, you know, knocked on the door, asked if I could use their phone. And I called and they weren’t home. And so I left a message. And I was, I mean, I must have sounded completely desperate, like, I’m so sorry. Like, I got in an accident. And the car is totaled and I can’t drive, can you please come pick me up? Blah, blah, blah. So anyway, my my uncle, he comes and picks me up and the ride home was very quiet. It was very quiet. And then we walked in the door, my aunt was really pissed at me. And so I like, walked in, and she grunted something and walked away. And my uncle and I sat down at the table, and I was just deflated, you know, because I was scared, what is coming next, he’s gonna kick me out whatever he’s gonna do. And he just, he handed me a pencil. And I’m sorry, I’m holding this pencil on, like, I don’t get it, you know? And he goes, what’s on the end of that pencil? And I said, an eraser? And he said, yes, because people make mistakes. And that was it. And I just thought, God, you know, I mean, think about. We all know somebody who’s, you know, 16-year-old kid, or, you know, whatever totaled their car, and they get grounded and make all this stuff. And he could have done all that, you know, and he didn’t, you know, he didn’t grow me because he’s like, you know, what, you created your own punishment. (laughs) You know what I mean by doing that, and I think what that did for me was like, A, there was humility in accepting somebody else’s mistake. And there was also safety in the fact that, you know what, the narrative that I tell myself isn’t always going to be the truth. Like, could it be it could be, you know, in all honesty, you know, you can be vulnerable and somebody could stomp all over you. I’ve had that happen. I’m sure you have as well. And does it happen? It does, and it feels horrible, and it’s awful. But it doesn’t keep you from trying.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What a beautiful, beautiful story to end on. Thank you so much for sharing that and Ky, thank you so much for coming to visit us on the show and having a conversation with me today.
Ky Matkovich
I’m so excited. I feel like this is the type of conversation we would always have in like a hallway somewhere.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, we totally would.
Ky Matkovich
The only differences like we have a bunch of eavesdroppers at this point, so. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
This is usually, like after we, after we get done talking about our you know, pajama sleepovers that we’ll have, then then it’s usually like let’s talk about some real stuff. For people who are interested in connecting with you. Where’s the best way for them to connect with you?
Ky Matkovich
Oh, golly. Um, so you know the Twitter’s that’s always a great place although Twitter you know, can be challenging these days, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Is slowly dying.
Ky Matkovich
I know! So it’s @ KyraMatkovichHR. LinkedIn is another place that I feel like there’s a lot of really good kind of professional relationships that are going on there. I am on threads. I don’t get it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m not there yet.
Ky Matkovich
I don’t get threads. So I’m there. It’s @ KyraMatkovichHR on the Instagram. Email. first name last name kyramatkovich @ gmail.com. Those are all the ways.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Awesome. We’ll put that in the show notes. Thank you so much, Ky.
Ky Matkovich
Thank you! I appreciate it. This is so fun. Sarah, I just you know, I just love you. I love you so much.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it too. I love you, too. Our guests this week has been my dear colleague and friend Ky Matkovich. And one of the things that I’m holding on to from this conversation was that question that she had shared of, you know, I said that and I just want to check in and see what did that sound and feel like to you? I think that’s such a beautiful check to make sure that our message is being received and that we can close the impact. So I really I love that gift that she gave, and we want to hear from you. You can reach out to us at podcast @ sarahnollwilson.com. Or you can find me on social media where my DMs are always open. So share with us what resonated for you, what came up for you, and what became clear for you because of this conversation? And also if you’d like to support the show, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us get exposure and to continue to bring on great guests and have the conversations like we did with Ky Matkovich today. Another way you can support the show is by becoming a patron. You can go to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where your financial support will support the crew that makes the show possible and you get access to some pretty great swag. I want to give a big thank you to our incredible team who makes this podcast possible. To our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew.
A big final thank you to Ky Matkovich for coming on and talking about the very difficult topic of apologies. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So until next week, please be sure to rest rehydrate and I’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.