Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Robert Sieger as they discuss some of the tools and practices that leaders can utilize to build a people-first culture.
About Our Guest
Robert (Bob) Sieger is the CIO and Director of Technology for Premier Products, Inc. He has been in the tech industry since Amazon was still in a garage and the internet was new. He has spent the last 25+ years leveraging technology to create solutions that meet the needs of business, while implementing what he calls his “not-so-secret tool” – a people-first approach, focusing on kindness, understanding, and active listening.
Transcript
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and with others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson and joining me today is my internet friend from LinkedIn (laughter), Bob, Robert Seger. And we’re going to be exploring various aspects of leadership, people first leadership, this has obviously been a very consistent theme on the show. And I think it’s always important for us to explore that further. So a little bit about Bob, before we bring him on. He is the CIO and Director of Technology for Premiere Products Incorporated. He has been in tech industry since amaz – I like this part of your bio, since Amazon was still in a garage and the Internet was new. He has spent the last 25 plus years leveraging technology to create solutions that meets the needs of business while implementing what he calls his not so secret approach, a people first approach focusing on kindness, understanding and active listening. Welcome to the show, Bob.
Robert Sieger
Thank you, Sarah. Nice to see you again.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s nice. It’s been it’s been a minute since we’ve been in conversation.
Robert Sieger
It has been. Yeah, you were on my show originally.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. I was trying to think of when that one that was? Was that last year or two years ago? It was –
Robert Sieger
About a year or two ago. It was – when did your book come out?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Last year. Yeah. It would have been last year.
Robert Sieger
Yeah, we did it for your book, which is an amazing book, by the way.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you. Yeah, he was going –
Robert Sieger
I give it out to a lot of people.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I appreciate that. Bob, what else do you think, what else do you want us to know about you?
Robert Sieger
Wow. So it’s been more than 25 years in my career so far. (laughs) I guess I gotta change that. I’m going on 30 years now. I’m an old man at this point in my life. I’m a grandfather now.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, yeah! –
Robert Sieger
Since last time, we talked.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Congratulations.
Robert Sieger
Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I think the baby was just coming.
Robert Sieger
Yes. That was our first grandchild, Branson.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
And the second one will be here – actually, I’m sorry. I should check that. The third grandchild will be here in October, granddaughter, so I’m gonna have two granddaughters by October. So that’s kind of cool, too.
Sarah Noll Wilson
How has being a grandparent changed you or how is it different than what you thought?
Robert Sieger
You know, because my kids are all remote. Right? So I’ve got some on the East Coast out in Carolina. And then I got, my middle son and his wife are in Mississippi. And then my daughter and her husband are living in the city in Chicago, but his daughter actually lives in Brazil, and is actually relocating to Portugal. So they’re spread out everywhere. So it really has only changed the way that we communicate with them. Right. So you know, we do a lot of video chats.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
Especially for the little ones so they can remember us when we go out and visit.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Robert Sieger
It’s kind of fun.
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, that’s awesome. What? So one of the things you know, one of the things that I’m excited to explore with you today is, is what you’ve learned, your lessons along the way. From a standpoint of leading with this people first mentality, but but take us back, because you’ve been, you’ve been not only in the workforce, but technology for, right, 30 years, as you just said, and I can only imagine you’ve seen a ton of evolution in that times. Right? And when you start – well, and let’s be real, it’s still like command and control is still a very high, you know, hierarchical type of leadership. Is still very much the norm, I think.
Robert Sieger
Amazingly so, amazingly so.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Amazingly so, right? And so I’m curious to know what what was your journey in this, was this, you know, was this always a part of who you were and your value? Because one of the things that I know, in working with people who’ve been around for a while, was you learned a certain way of leadership. And then were like, I don’t know that this is how I actually want to show up. So take us back and what what’s your journey been to this point of, of really honoring the humans that you work with?
Robert Sieger
Yeah, that, you know, that that’s a great way of putting it because early on in my career, you know, I was taught to be the command and control type leader. I mean, that’s, that’s the way I grew up in business, and started growing up in technology, right? Before technology was even a thing the way it is now. I mean, if you asked me about AI as an example, 30 years ago, I would say it’s just something that Isaac Asimov wrote about, right?
Right, that you know, or was a Terminator movie?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right.
Robert Sieger
You know, Cyberdyne. You know, and now look at today, it’s just, it’s just growing in leaps and bounds. It’s really amazing. And that in itself changes the way that you lead too, you have to start thinking about that. So early on in my career, I was very much command and control. But early on in my career, I was also a volleyball coach, right and coaching young folks. And when you’re coaching, you can’t operate in the command and control arena, right? Because you can’t, I mean, ever, ever try and control a 13 14 15 16 whatever, you know, young teenager when you want them to do things? You have to kind of incent them to go along, and you have to work with them. And I think that’s really what taught me how to be a better, more effective leader is that coaching – things that I learned from coaching. And it wasn’t until probably like, my fifth year or so, in tech, where I really learned that, you know, being a people first type of leader was going to work better for me in implementing successfully, right, and making sure projects go successfully, and being able to understand how technology fits within an organization. Right? Early on in my career it was all about what “we” meaning the leaders in tech community and the guys that were actually implementing technology felt like it was going to work for the business, rather than in business driving the technology. Right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.
Robert Sieger
So you know, now, if you go to my LinkedIn profile is an example. I have a little equation in my in my banner, it’s People Plus Process Over Technology, because when you understand the people in the process, only then can you implement a technology that’s going to fit within that organization. And I’ll tell you the reason, the reason I learned that was through my first failed ERP project, right? Because – and it failed, because as a technology group, we implemented something that we thought was going to work for them without ever getting the feedback from the business on what they needed.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure, sure.
Robert Sieger
You know, very, very distinctive, very distinct different ways of doing things. And it surprises me today that even within, even within a lot of companies, it’s still technology kind of driving what people or what the business is going to use. And those are always doomed to failure.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. Did you run into any pushback when you were on this evolution and rethinking how you wanted to show up and being more collaborative and making sure that you were hearing the voice of people that maybe you weren’t asking for previously? Did you, yeah, did you experience any kind of pushback? And part of the reason I ask is, I have even in current day, I’ve seen where there are people in leadership positions who are trying to do it differently. And there’s been some consequences.
Robert Sieger
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. And so I’m curious to know what that experience has been like for you?
Robert Sieger
Oh, yeah. I think the first time that I really tried to push, I’m not going to name the name of the company.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, no.
Robert Sieger
The first time that I really tried to push that people first mentality want in was very much very opposite of what the see the CTO that I was reporting to wanted to do things. She wanted to push things, she wanted to just to push things through the, “Hey, I’m the tech person, I know what needs to be done here, these guys have no idea what they need.” And I kind of pushed against that. And I was working with the business units trying to gather their information. And in doing so it kind of went against what the CTO wanted to push, the application that she that she wanted to push. And I ended up losing my job because of that, because it was just too much pushback. Now, the people that I was working with loved it and thought it was a great way to do things. She didn’t and so I lost my job. That was first time that actually lost the job that I didn’t leave. But it was a wake up call for me. It, you know, I knew the success that I was getting in these communications with these different groups and individuals. I knew that was the way to go. So then when I moved on to my next organization, I made sure that the culture was sort of aligned in the same way that I was thinking as well too. Now maybe it wasn’t perfectly aligned. Maybe there were some changes that needed to be done. And that’s okay. I like doing.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Robert Sieger
I like being able to help change a culture and get it going in the right direction. So, yeah, that was the that was kind of the consequence of doing it. And, but But again, if you believe in it, if you know, it works, and if you’re operating from what’s in your heart, right? And you have a heart for the people that you’re serving. You gotta let the chips fall where they may.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
Right? Because change doesn’t happen when you just keep doing things the same way.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.
Robert Sieger
Keep driving things through, because those projects are doomed to fail.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s such a, it’s such an unfortunate reality. Right? And I think that you know, that’s there’s there can be a risk. And to your point, I mean, staying aligned with your values and what you know to be true, can give you that courage to be able to step in and step, step out and it seems so (chuckles) it seems so, like just take care of your people and include people and invite more people at the table seems like you know, so obvious of you know, a good not even just good leadership, but good relationships and good culture. And again, just still, still is something that you know, organizations are figuring out how to do.
Robert Sieger
Yeah. Well, I think what happens too is is a lot of organizations don’t even realize some of the hidden talent they have within that organization. Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
I’ll give you an example. Within the current organization I am right now. There was, there’s a young woman who has kind of been relegated to kind of a back room. She’s a little socially, socially awkward. Has you know, difficulties looking someone in the eye, and not just because it just makes her uncomfortable. She’s a bit of a –
Sarah Noll Wilson
A bit of a neurodivergent.
Robert Sieger
Yeah, maybe, and a bit of an introvert, right. But she’s a very talented project manager, doesn’t even realize that she is. And I recognize that and kind of bringing her along. And I think that’s what happens in most organizations, they they kind of get within their organizational blinders. Right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
And you’re driving forward, and you got to have mean, business has to move on. Right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
You have to get things done every day. And when you have those blinders on, when you’re just just driving driving driving forward. That’s where you tend to sort of leave people in the dust, you know what I mean, and, and they go unnoticed. And I think when you sit down and you take the time to have conversations, when you take the time to notice some of the work that they’re doing, or even some of the work that they’re curious about, you know, you can find some really hidden gems within any organization, and then you could bring that forward and start sort of polishing that gem up. So it becomes a diamond.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
You know what I mean?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think that you know, those blinders, we tend to promote people who are like us, we tend to reinforce people like us, there’s a reason that people in leadership largely look the same.
Robert Sieger
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, so how do we open that up? Because I mean, we also know, the more diverse your team is, the more – the better the ideas are going to be. Because you’re going to have very different perspectives. How do you, how do you navigate, you know, and check in with yourself, of your own, your own ingroup outgroup? Your own blind spots? How do you stay connected to that? Because that, you know, naturally as humans, we do, we do have that similarity bias, right? We gravitate towards people who look like us, who have a lived experience like us. And it’s something that particularly as people who have authority, we have to be checking constantly. And so what does that look like for you? Because I mean, being a people for – because I am going to interupt – well, let me ask that question.
Robert Sieger
Go, go ahead.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m trying to work on like focusing my questions, (laughter) because I’ll end up on like, here’s eight tentacles, and you’re like, I don’t know what question. So let me pause there. What, yeah, what does that look like for you to make sure that you’re checking those blind spots?
Robert Sieger
Yeah. So for me, it’s, it’s, it’s sort of diving in, right. So for example, the organization that I’m with today, Premier Products, we’re a manufacturer, right, we make custom seating for the RV and the transport industry as well as as well as HVAC units that get installed. So we have a plant that is heavy, heavy with hands on type of people doing all the stitching and putting together the upholstery and all that good stuff. I spend time out there with them. Right? I want to learn what they’re doing. I want to, I want to know what their shortcuts they’re doing. Right? Because maybe the tech that we that they have right now is performing to what they need. I think it’s important. I don’t need to become an expert. Right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
I don’t need to take their jobs for them. But I need to know what some of the challenges are? Where are some of the roadblocks? Where are their successes, right? And get to know them a little bit, personally too.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
Because when you start to do that, when you start to build relationships with them, you start to learn where some of your gaps are inside yourself as well too, right, because they teach you how to react, they teach you how to understand, right? They help build your empathy when you’re out there with them. So you have to go out there with sort of an open heart and open hands. So that’s what I do it and is to be amongst everyone, you know, and try to get a hand in something and not be afraid to do things as well, too. When we moved into this new big, beautiful plant a couple of weeks ago, I have two of my guys were afraid to go up on the scissor lift and go up 25 feet in the air to pull some Cat6 cabling through the through the ceiling. And I said okay, I’ll do it. So they got up there because rather than get upset that they were too afraid to go up there and they shouldn’t have been because it’s you know, a very safe scissor lift.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, but you know, the brain, the brain is the brain.
Robert Sieger
Exactly, exactly. So I, you know, I have a heart for people and I didn’t want to put them through that or even force them to do that. But trust me, I’ve been in organizations that would have said too bad that your job you got to do it. Suck it up. And I’m just not a big believer in that. So I like to do a lot of that. I like to to be there with them to, to understand them to understand the folks at every level. And I do a lot of journaling. It helps get you that introspective, right? When you journal because you just kind of, and I don’t journal with questions, I just sort of do a vomit of thoughts and words of what’s going on in my day, I do it twice a day, In the morning, so I can help set my goals. And then at the end of the day or the evening, before I head to bed, so I take a review of what’s going on. And I talk about within that journal, I talk about negative things as well, too. Because I think that all helps you kind of grow so that you know, in trying to discover where my blind spots are, and, and and to grow, I think that’s the two things that I do the most is that, you know, I make sure I’m communicating all the time and building relationships. And then journaling. I’m a big fan of journaling.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I really, I love hearing that. And I love hearing that from you.
Robert Sieger
(laughs) I hope it’s not surprising.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, it’s not because of how I know you. And it is because it’s unique. I mean, I’ll just speak really like candidly right, like I work with a lot of you know, mid career or later career white men in power. I’m just gonna say it right. I mean, and and that isn’t, you’re the first for me. So, so knowing you, I’m not surprised like that, that actually aligns with what I know about you. But I’m having this moment of how, how would I feel if you were my CIO, or boss, and knowing that you took that kind of time for self reflection would feel really significant, as your team member. And what I really appreciate about, one, you’ve given two really specific practices people can do. You know, that first one is getting out with the people. I cannot tell you how many times and I know you’ve seen it in your world, where I’ll hear from team members who will say, Oh, my CEO won’t even say hi to me in the hallways, right. And I get it, things are busy, right? We’re, we’re in meetings, we’re in, right? Like, we get heads down, we’re trying to get the work across. And there’s so much value in slowing down a little bit. And, you know, I also I wanted to go back to a couple of things you said just to amplify them a bit. But you know, there’s such a practice of humility in your approach to of, I want to know what their shortcuts are, I want to know what their challenges are like, where are they already fig – because they’re figuring out a different path. They’re in it day in and day out. And, you know, and I, I’m, I’m reminded, I’m reminded of a conversation I just had recently in a company I was working with, and one of the team members was, they just said, I wish I wish senior leadership would come to our stores more. I wish they would be more involved. And it was a really interesting moment in dynamic because I think that there is definitely a number of leaders who are like, we need to kind of take that to heart or get curious about it. And then there is some defensiveness of like, but we can’t expect us and we grew up in the system. And, and I understand where that protection comes from. I get that. And, and so I love that, I love you know, for people who are listening, going, what does this look like? And how do I do it, you’ve given this beautiful gift, but then that practice of journaling. And you know, at the end of the day, self awareness is so important, and it’s not a destination. It’s not something we just come to. How long have you been, how long have you been doing the practice of journaling? What got you into it?
Robert Sieger
Well, a couple of things. When I say get out there with the folks, I want everybody to know that, you know, I don’t have intimate relationships with them, right? They’re, they’re cordial. They’re friendly. They’re but they’re very surface oriented. I mean, there’s just with 150 people out in the plant. There’s no way I can get to know them deeply. But they all know me by name, they get smiles. We all get pats on the back, we all share, you know, we’ll share breaks together, we’ll share lunches together and stuff like that. So, you know, I don’t want it to seem like that I’m this big, you know, (laughs) knowing everybody kind of guy. I’m not. But at least we have connection.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
You know, I think at the very least that’s what you need to do to be successful at least make a connection. So I just wanted to make sure that was clear, because, you know, there are times where it takes me a second to remember the name of the person that I’m speaking to you. Right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Sieger
But I will, I will at some point. And, and, you know, I and I know very high level things, you know, kids are in school, soccer is next week, things like that. I tried to remember that. So that being said, as far as journaling is concerned, I’ve only been doing that practice now for about I want to say maybe 10 years, not very long, not very long.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Just a decade. (laughs)
Robert Sieger
Well, in the scheme of things when you’re talking about a 30 year career, right, that means I’ve only been doing it for a third of my career. So I’ve missed out two thirds of my career to be improving and gaining that self awareness along the way. And one thing I’ll say is, I’ve been on LinkedIn forever, since it first came through. And it was through a connection on LinkedIn, that gave me my first journal, that I started doing journaling and getting more into it. So it’s how you and I met. It’s how I got your, your amazing book. And I’ve actually given that book to a few people.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that you keep plugging it, thank you.
Robert Sieger
I do. It’s great. It’s an amazing book. I give journals to my team teams for Christmas, every year. Because I think, I think it’s that important.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
And not to get too far from the business topic. But –
Sarah Noll Wilson
We’re talking about humans. Let’s do it.
Robert Sieger
Yeah, back in the day, I was born and raised a Catholic, and kind of fell out of going out of church and my wife is very, not religious, but very faithful. And she dragged me to a, just a non-denominational Christian church. And I kind of fell into that 10 years ago, too. And that sort of has helped me in my journey, because it’s, it was completely different, you know, gone are all the rules that you follow. And, and it’s more people focused. And that’s kind of helped me along my way as well, too.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. It’s that, you know, we get so busy. I mean, I hate to use that word, but it’s the word and, and, you know, the, we often we often talk about that, how do we close the gap between our good intentions, and the actual impact? And part of that is the the self awareness to slow down and reflect and, and being willing and open to feedback and seeking it out. And in that, that practice of really reflecting and going, what went well, today? And where did I miss the mark? And where do I want to do differently yesterday? I really, I mean, I applaud you, because I think it could be really easy, particularly someone with your career and in your position and your responsibilities to be like, no, I don’t have time for it. So I just, it’s, it’s so refreshing for me to hear how important that is for you to prioritize that.
Robert Sieger
I think the whole I’m too busy, or I’ve got too much going on, is a crutch. I think it’s, it’s a fallacy. There is always time, you could always make time, I don’t care how much you have to do. Within your day, you can always make time. I have a strict very strict policy, that if I’m not done with what I need to do, by 6 pm, 6:30 sometimes, that’s that’s late, I’ll give myself it’s getting tabled. It goes into a nice stack on my desk, I’m getting to it in the morning again. Now I’m an early riser. I get, I get started very early, you know, which is which is fine. I’m up by 4:30. And I’m generally at my desk by six o’clock. And then I start organizing my day and getting through the day. But by doing that, it allows me the time that I need to either reconnect with my family at night, right? Have time to to do a video call with friends and family and neighbors and all that good stuff. Because now I set work aside, I leave work at work. I don’t take it home and I used to take it home.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.
Robert Sieger
And then during the day, it’s kind of forced me to schedule things out, block things out and make sure that I’m intentional about getting time to step out and meet with the folks and understand what’s going on. And I think unless you have that intentionality and doing what you’re supposed to do during the day, you’re always going to be too busy, because let’s face it, things happen. Things get tossed onto your desk every time. But unless you’re a heart surgeon or a brain surgeon, right, or in the medical practice, you know, most of what we do in our careers, nobody’s going to die because we didn’t get to that particular item within the next hour.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Right.
Robert Sieger
It can be put aside. So I think it was when I first got intentional that’s one of the things that helped me because I used to be that guy that was always so busy. I was always coming home stressed out, bringing stuff with me. This has to get done now, this has to get done now, this blah, blah, blah, and it takes years off your life.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it does.
Robert Sieger
It really does. And it wasn’t until I kind of drew that line and said, okay, here’s what I’m going to do. And then, don’t get me wrong. There are days where I could probably work till eight, nine o’clock at night. And I have to force myself not to because once you start doing it, once you go down that rabbit hole, it’s hard to get out.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s, it’s a real slippery slope of like, well, I mean, I worked literally late last night. And now how do I – yeah, it’s, uh, and, and depending on the organization, and sometimes that’s the the measure of success is sort of like how your stress level is. You know, like, I worked for an organization where it felt like everyone’s badge of honor was how many hours they worked and how late they were working. And oh, yeah, you were up till 10? Yeah, I was up until 11. And yeah, became this weird. So unhealthy, –
Robert Sieger
Yeah it is.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like so unhealthy. And you’re, I mean, let’s be real. We’re not being flippant when we say it can take years off your life. It actually, it will. And you know, at some point, your body will say, –
Enoughs enough.
Well enoughs enough. Yeah, absolutely. Like, that definitely happened to me for sure. (laughs) One of the things that I know you’re really passionate about is, is this idea in practice of servant leadership, and this is something that has come up in other conversations with other individuals on the show. And I’m curious, how do you define that? What does that look like for you, as a leader?
Robert Sieger
So it’s, it’s operating in the sense of helping others, right, and bringing others along. As leaders within any organization, no matter what department you’re leading, your job is to bring the next person up, that’s going to take your job, right? You want to be building the next generation of servant leaders. So you have to be leading by example, right? You’ve got to be helping them grow. You’ve got to be out there with them understanding what they’re going through, and, and in helping them along the way, being there to support them. Right? Because let’s face it, everybody’s got something going on. You never know what’s going on in a person’s life at that moment. So that’s why you always have to come from a from a place of kindness and support and empathy in bringing them along. So I think, for me, servant leadership is about support. It’s about teaching. It’s about helping, it’s about bringing along, right. And it’s also recognizing that you’re not the smartest person in the world. (laughter) Right? You can’t absolutely do anything. Like I like to say, I mean, my background, if anybody, it’s surprising, people always ask me about, what’s your college degree? Okay. I graduated in the 80s. So my degree back then was probably in drinking.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Robert Sieger
But I’m an English Lit. graduate, in technology. I just happened to get really lucky and got into tech before tech was a popular thing to have. And I, I learned from the ground up. I got mentored along the way, and I taught myself a lot of things. So you need to recognize that in other people as well, too, and give those people the same chance. I wouldn’t be where I’m at right now, if I didn’t have some really fantastic mentors, who, you know, God bless their souls are gone now. But if they didn’t help me along the way, so I, and to me, those were they were servant leaders, too. And that’s kind of what taught me to be that way.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. One of the things, one of the things I was curious to get your thoughts about. We recently, I had the privilege of interviewing Jen Fisher, She’s the Chief Well-being Officer at Deloitte. And so we were talking about well being at work, and how do we rethink work and how work is really one of the biggest obstacles to mental and physical wellbeing for people. And one of the things she and I talked about is that sometimes this idea of servant leadership can actually turn into a trap for folks because they’re giving and giving and giving. And I’m curious to just hear your kind of like your response to that, of how when somebody is in that place of wanting to give and wanting to take care, how, how do we protect against burnout of that leader? Right. So I’m curious to hear what your experience has been? Maybe some lessons learned along the way, where people that you’re supporting and bringing along how you’ve what you’ve observed in them?
Robert Sieger
Yeah, I think it’s, I think it’s important that you need to know what their capabilities are, and you need to know what their limits are. Right. So, back in the day, when I first kind of started out doing this, you know, I hired people that I had a heart for, but weren’t exactly a good fit for what I was asking them to do. So what I ended up is carrying them along the way for a while and it exhausting and it caused burnout within myself in doing that and that wasn’t doing that person any favor.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
Right. Because they weren’t coming along. They were being pulled –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Pulled along. Yeah, sure.
Robert Sieger
Which, which is a big difference. So I’ve taught myself or I’ve discovered through the years that through interviewing and through hiring and bringing the right people onto the team, you know, where you surround yourself with people that are smarter than you. Right? So that they’re supporting, they’re supporting you, and you are supporting them in different ways. So I think that’s, that’s kind of the critical lesson I’ve learned over the years is to do it that way, right? Surround yourself with people that are smarter than you, know their capabilities, understand their capabilities, and, and give them task and get them involved in projects that are going to help them grow and raise things. So that you’re not pulling them along the way. You’re helping them rise up on their own.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Robert Sieger
Does that makes sense?
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, it definitely does. Because I think that, I think when you are someone who and it’s clear that this is just part of who you were, even if you were shaped differently earlier in your career, right, like, there’s something I feel like that’s just this is a core value of yours. But when you are somebody who cares really deeply about people. When you do, when you do see the potential and possibility, but maybe they’re just where they’re at is not – you know, one of the lessons that I learned early in my career was you can’t care more for someone’s development than they do. And that wasn’t meant to be flippant or harsh. But that’s what was happening to me was I was trying to pull people along, who honestly just didn’t want to be pulled. And they were okay with where they were at. Or they were in a place where they didn’t want what I wanted for them. Right and having to be okay, of meeting them where they’re at. And having that and I also, you know, I go back to, I go back to that practice, you said, of, of shutting down at six or 6:30. And really setting that that cleared line, you know, because I think that one of the things we’re definitely we’re seeing now, and I know research is starting to show it. And we’ve been having lots of conversations on this show, and I’m doing research as a team is we are seeing a higher level of burnout in leaders, we are seeing a higher level of burnout in CEOs. And, you know, I think a lot of that has to do with just coming off of the pandemic and all the uncertainty and navigating that. The fact that the workforce is changing, and the needs are changing, and the worker’s expectations are changing. And there’s some people we’re in conversation with that are like, I actually don’t know that I can be the leader that people need right now. I don’t, I don’t know how to stretch in that very human way. That’s not what I know. And I find it exhausting. And I don’t know how to do it. So when you look at where we are, not, not just from where we are from a humanity, but also like let’s talk technology, because we are in this incredible – it feels like an acceleration of a moment when it comes to technology, particularly with AI, right? And when you think about where we’re at, and when you think about where you think we are going to be going from an organizational perspective. What do you feel like the future of leadership needs to look like to balance all of that?
Robert Sieger
Yeah. Again, it’s all going to go back to having conversations, right? Understanding the people and the process first.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
I believed that 10 years ago, I still believe that now. When you have those types of conversations, and you start to build that intimacy with the people, it helps you gain intimacy with the process as well. Right? And then you can start seeing how you can use technology to either support that, augment it, or even help drive it to grow even further. You know what I mean? And you need to get that buy-in from the people that own the process. Right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
So I’ve been doing, I’ve been having mind mapping meetings with all the various groups out in the plant, right? I’ve got guys out there and women out there that have been with the organization for 20 plus years, and they were never asked about how they do things or why they do things. Right. And here I have, I’m bringing them into a room with a whiteboard, saying, okay, let’s let’s draw this out. Let’s figure this out. Let’s see if we can identify where the gaps are. And that’s bringing them on, and that’s gonna help us implement the ERP that we’re trying to put in even better, right, because now we’re really understanding the process. We’re really understanding the people behind it, because they’re going to ultimately use it and make sure it works. I’m the last of the baby boomer generation, so I was, I was, when I was brought up it was all about you do as I say, don’t do as I do.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
You know, my, my, my dad, my, my mom raised us that way. And you know, we were not a carrot family. We were a stick family all the way. And I’ll tell you that, it was hard to break myself with that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.
Robert Sieger
You know, early on and now with even my own kids being adults, my grandkids starting to grow up a little bit now, you know, we are, we never pulled out the stick in in 35 years with our kids, you know. It was always about understanding, being empathetic to where they’re at, where they – and of course, we had boundaries we had rules. And even in business, right, you have to have boundaries, and you have to have rules. But, but there are there are ways to implement those boundaries and rules and there are ways to not, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Robert Sieger
And doing that with a stick rather than a carrot as the example is, is not a good way to do things. I mean, you pretty much talk about that in your book as well, too. You know, it’s there are better ways to do that type of thing. So I think everything is always going to boil down to relational conversations, right, and empathetic ears. I mean, if you can, if you can nail that down you will be successful, and you will not burn out.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
I promise you that. I mean, I’ve been on the edge of burnout. I really have. I think a lot of reasons why I have MS is because I burned myself out early on, you know, and so MS is the price of that, I think.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
And I think one of the reasons why it’s been so under control these last, you know, 10-15 years, it’s because I’m having more mindfulness, and I’m mindfully practicing, journaling, all that good stuff we talked about, I think that’s helped control what was going on. So anybody who’s listening, that’s experiencing that type of burnout right now. I’m telling you right now, you need to take yourself back at step, take a deep breath, and reevaluate the way that you are, you are leading. Reevaluate the way you are doing things and start setting some boundaries up.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
I tell all my folks that on my team, family always comes first. Something’s going on with your family. Don’t worry about it. You don’t have to, you don’t have to be concerned about talking to me about it. Just tell me it’s my family. And I’ll say okay, see you later. Take off. Go do it. Because it’s that important. You have to, you have to separate that. I mean, we’re only, we spend – what’s the statistic that we’ll spend three quarters of our lives at work?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
And only a quarter of our life with our family. So you got to make the most of that family time. If you want to continue to grow emotionally and have yourself because what’s going to happen when you retire? All you got is your family then.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)
Robert Sieger
Ya know? And so you better have that relationship pretty solid.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s a, I mean, I obviously love everything that you’re, you’re sharing and, and wholeheartedly agree, and that that whole idea of relational conversations and empathetic listening, and, and what’s possible with that, not only from a reduction of stress, but an increase of innovation, of getting the, you know, getting more people in the room. It’s interesting to hear you talk about these are people who have been here 25 years, and they had never been invited in that way. And, you know, made me think of a project I worked on, where there was somebody in Customer Care, who said, “I thought it was a mistake that I was invited to this meeting.” And I said, “Well, why would that be?” And he said, “Because no one has ever asked my opinion on something so important.”
Robert Sieger
Yeah. And that’s, that’s sad. That really is sad.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It really is. I mean, that that broke my heart and, and also showed the value of it. And so, you know, I think some of the things that I’m hearing too, is, you know, when we talk about people first, when we talk about creating workplaces for humans, we’re not just talking about caring for them, it isn’t just this like, generic feeling of like, love and care for people. It’s what are specific things we’re doing so that they feel heard, so that they feel valued, respected, you know, and as our friend, Tara Jaye Frank, who we had on the show before and protected? You know, what are those things we’re doing? And, and I so appreciate, you know, that perspective of if it’s family, like not even. I mean, that’s what I always tell, you know, my colleagues, we’re not curing cancer, folks. Literally, nothing we’re doing is more important than you your relational health at home, your family, your friends, that is always priority, always priority. And you know, gosh, and then I think, how do we change that stat? How do we get it to be like, I you know, I’m just very pro like, let’s start rethinking the structure of work because, gosh, that is problematic that we spend so much of our time – which is why for me I’m so passionate about like, and let’s make it as safe as possible. You know, and and engaging as possible.
Robert Sieger
Well, I think, I think that trend is starting to change now at least within the groups, the circles that I go with that are you know – and I see what the – I’m gonna make myself seem like I’m an old man when I’m not. But what the younger generation is starting to shape, in the way we do things. And let’s face it, we’ve been forced with a pandemic, we’ve been forced to make some shifts in the way that we think work should be done.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
Right? Even though you’re getting all kinds of headlines about how how leaders are saying, come back to the officer, come back to the office, and they’re trying to force people. When they try to force people what happens? They leave.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Or they, or they don’t leave and it’s even worse. And now they’re disengaged. And they’re there, but they’re there.
Robert Sieger
Yeah. Now they’re quiet quitting. Right? You know, so it’s, it’s forcing guys like me that were in the boomer generation to, to try and better understand the workforce and adapt to what they want and need. And I think it’s the, it’s the leaders that are refusing to adapt. That’s where you’re getting those roadblocks. And that’s why you have all these help wanted signs everywhere. And, and that’s why you’ve got groups that are quiet quitting.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
You know what I mean? It’s because their leaders aren’t adapting, their leaders are being not understanding. They’re not being empathetic because, hey, how do we how do we get work done for three years being locked up behind closed doors? How do we still get work done? We did. I mean, unless you were in a business that was involved with travel and transportation. Everything else started to work still, we still kept going on, we still found ways ways to do things. So we have to accept that there are alternate ways of working that will, you know, maybe they leave us with lots of real estate that’s going unused and offices that are going unused. But is the productivity up? Are things getting done? Are things still getting out the door? Yeah, they are. So why not? Why not adapt?
Sarah Noll Wilson
I, I feel like, and this is something I feel, I feel, I have this conversation, maybe weekly of we were given this gift to rethink work and to continue to rethink it. And, you know, and I, and I even think about how the role AI can play in reducing, like, I’m not sure that that’s going to, you know, we thought phones and other technology was gonna give us all this free time. And it just made us more tethered and more. But you know, how do we use some of this to re re reset or rebalance or rethink what what work can look like, because it, I’m with you in that the people who are really holding steady to the before times, they’re, they’re struggling, their team members are struggling, the cultures that we see in the companies, we see where people are trying new things are thriving. And, and you know, that was actually that there is a generational shift, right? Every kind of generation has shifted the workforce in some way. Right? Us Millennials got really called entitled, but I mean, we fought for some stuff that, and now the younger, you know, when we look at Gen Z, not only are they not afraid to, again, painting a broad brush, right, but what we know is demographically more, more younger people aren’t afraid to speak up. And they’re also not afraid to say I don’t want to, I don’t want to do this. And I think we’re in this really interesting and we probably always are in this tension point. Right? And I think it’s going to be really interesting over the next even just five years as more of the workforce demographic shifts. What, what will be possible, and boy, I’m here for it. I, I just, you know, work hasn’t worked for folks for a long time. But, but it can, I mean, I think that’s the thing for me, right? Like, and you’ve experienced it, where when you can work for a leader who cares for you. When you can work in a system that values you as a human, it can give you this deep sense of meaningfulness. It can make you even if you’re not passionate about what you’re doing, it can make you feel good about what you’re doing and contributing. Like, even if it’s not like my life’s purpose, you know, but I can feel really good about my contributions. There’s so much value to that.
Robert Sieger
Yeah. And, you know, it’s an exciting time. It really is. And I’m not close to retirement yet, but, you know, I think I’m gonna be around for maybe another 10 years. And I’m really excited for what the future holds. And I want to, I want to see how this all plays out. And I want to be a part of it, I want to – AI I think, I’m very excited about it, I use I use at least three or four different AI tools right now in playing around for what I’m trying to do. I got a couple of my guys trying it out and playing around. I want to know how they’re using it and you know, even if they’re using it to respond to me in emails, that’s okay, let me know because it’s, it’s pretty cool. You know, you can you know, I want to I want to see how people are, you know, how they’re adapting. Right? And how can we take and adapted to our business. Now, granted, AI is not going to be able to fill everything you know, I don’t think we’re getting on to the Cyberdyne Era. Cyberdyne is from the Terminator film.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh I know, very familiar. That is one of the number one fears in our house. (laughs)
Robert Sieger
Yeah, I don’t think we’re gonna get to that phase yet. But I do think you know, as, as a virtual assistant, in what you’re trying to do, it can help make you more efficient, right? I mean, in putting together presentations and putting together proposals and putting together any number of things, even the business plan, right? Having it help you out, if you give it the right prompts, and you give it the right base information, it can help fill in a lot of gaps that you may or may not struggle with.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. And then what I found is that it can help, it can either help give you a really good sort of first draft, if you will, a first thought to push against, or, you know, in components that are, don’t require, I don’t want to say like not deep thinking, but like, in our world, coming up with titles for workshops and descriptions for workshops. And, you know, just recently, I was plugging in, like, what are the top 10 questions you would ask in this kind of situation? And, you know, did I agree with all of them? No, but some of them I was like, damn, that’s a good question.
Robert Sieger
(laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Or, or it prompts me to go, oh, right. I had forgotten about that. And now I now actually, I’m going to build on it. And it’s really nice, you know, like, it’s doing some of the legwork of the thinking that may not be as critical so that we can get in and do the critical work. And I do think it’s an exciting time. And, and it will be interesting to see how that, again, pushes what, what work looks like, and what what then leadership is going to look like?
Robert Sieger
Right. Well, and here’s the thing. So AI can help you like fill in some gaps and gather some material for you. But it’s never going to replace the heart, right, it’s never gonna replace the emotion that goes into whatever it is that you’re trying to build. And I don’t care if you’re, if you’re building a diode, if you’re building a car, or if you’re building a business plan, there’s a motion that goes into that. And AI is never going to replace that. And once you start having those relationships with the people that are doing that building, right, you start to understand the emotional reactions that they’re having, when things are successful, when things don’t go right. When there are gaps or when they feel like they’re having a bad day. Right? When you start to understand all of that, and you’ve built that relationship with them, you can help them get through certain things, or you can help them become even more successful. AI is never going to be ever going to be able to replace that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I appreciate that. And Bob, I just have really appreciated this conversation. And I love being, I love being in conversation with you.
Robert Sieger
Thanks. Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We need to make sure that it’s not just once a year, but if it is just once a year, then we’ll do it, we should do a check in in year and be like, where are we at? Okay, as we wind down our time, there’s a question we ask all of our guests and I would love to hear your answer. And, and in the spirit of this being a show about conversations, exploring topics, what was a conversation you had with yourself or with someone else that was transformative?
Robert Sieger
Oh, wow. That’s, that’s a question that I have to think about for a second. I think it was a conversation that I had with myself. The very first time that I got let go. That was, it was a blow. Not only was it a blow financially, obviously, but it was it was a blow to my ego. And it was a blow to my self worth. Right? And and I really had to sit down and think about why did this happen? And I, we talked about it a little bit earlier to happen because I was doing things that were sort of counter to what what the CTO wanted, you know, wasn’t her way kind of thing. And I really had to understand, how can I navigate that in the future? Right? How can I present myself in a way? How can I still live my values? How can I still live the way that I want to be culturally and have these relationships and build those empathetic muscles up? Right? Build those relational muscles up and still not go counter to someone who may not be that way. So that that was that was kind of where that was and that took a lot of –– introspect, introspective. You know, is that the right word I think?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
It helped me grow quite a bit. And to be honest, I certainly have conversations like that every day when I’m journaling, right? Part of, part of the way that I journal at at night, is I always have three things that I’m grateful for that happened that day. And then I always list out three things that I want to change about the way I reacted or what I did that day as well too. So that allows me the, that allows me the opportunity to say, okay, where am I slipping up? Or how do I feel like I’m slipping up? Because someone else may not think I’m slipping up in that way. But somehow for some reason I think I am. So that kind of helps me out that way.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Beautiful.
Robert Sieger
And you know, and I think we talked about being transformative or going through transformation. It’s not a one time thing, right? It, I think if you think of it as a daily sort of growth opportunity that allows you to be more open to the possibilities, right. I really do think every day I’m growing in some way, shape or form I’m growing. Am I getting better? Maybe. But I certainly am learning new things every day. And I think as long as you can get through that, and you can have that attitude. I think you’re going to be successful. Right? At least internally.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Robert Sieger
It may not transfer to success within the organization, because maybe the organization’s not ready for someone like that. Or they might see you as as a threat. Right? Because that’s going to happen. It really is. You know, when when you try to be open like that, when you try to be transformative like that, you know, it can be threatening to other senior leaders within the organization, especially those that are command and control. Right? So, but you have to be willing to accept that. And you have to be willing to take the consequences of that and either move on, or keep pushing the along because maybe you’ll help change them as well, too.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Beautiful. If people want to connect with you, and I recommend they do, because you are all about connections. And if you connect with, if you connected Bob on LinkedIn, you’ll see that he’s a great cheerleader and a great connector. But what is the best way for people to connect with you who may want to after they hear this?
Robert Sieger
Reach out to me on LinkedIn right away. That’s the best way to do. Although I gotta say the last two weeks because we were moving from an old facility into this new facility, I have not been on LinkedIn, except really quick to check. I have not been posting, I’ve been disengaged for the last two weeks, but that was on purpose. Because I like to have – I set time aside for LinkedIn every day. And if I can’t focus on that, then I’m not giving value to others. And I’m not giving value to myself, in the platform, in the community. So Monday, I’ll be back on.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Awesome.
Robert Sieger
So reach out to me on LinkedIn, I’m very happy to connect with you and support anyone who needs help, or you know, whatever. I mean, it’s, I’m there.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Awesome. We will put that in the show notes. Thank you so much for being a part of the show today. We appreciate you.
Robert Sieger
Thank you for having me, Sarah. This was, this was awesome. I always love having conversations with you. So you got to be on Coffee with Bob next. Yeah, just let me know, the relaunch you’ll you’ll be my first guest again. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Awesome. Thank you so much, Bob.
Robert Sieger
Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been Bob Sieger. And one of the things that I’m holding on to – I mean, in addition to just the journaling, that’s something that I’ve never been able to really like get my brain to do, was that point that he made about you, you won’t be able to have a deep relationship with 150 people or however many people are in your company, but you at least need to make the effort to make a connection and listen to them and hear their challenges and see their processes so that you can serve them better. I think that idea of like just making a connection was really powerful. And we’d love to hear from you. What resonated, what connections did you make, you can always send us an email at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson.com. Or you can find me on social media where my DMs are always open, I highly recommend going over to LinkedIn. That seems to be my preferred platform these days. And if you’d like to support the show, make sure that you rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. That gives us exposure and lets us bring on great guests like Bob. You can also become a patron and financially support the show by going to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where not only you’ll get some great swag, but you’ll also support the show.
And speaking of the show, I want to just give a big shout out to the incredible team that makes this possible. To our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionist, Becky Reinert, to our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. I’m so grateful for you all always. And a final thank you to our guest, Bob Seger for sharing his incredible leadership insights and wisdom. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves or others, we can change the world. So until next week, my friends be sure to rest, rehydrate and we’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.