Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Katrina Jones for a conversation on personal growth, societal shifts, and the power of embracing uncertainty.
About Our Guest
Katrina Jones is the founder and CEO of Advancing Equity + Inclusion, a Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Talent consulting and coaching firm. She helps organizations connect their programmatic efforts to comprehensive DEI strategies that help accelerate their progress in building more diverse teams, and fostering more inclusive, equitable, and psychologically safe cultures. Katrina has more than 15+ years of experience leading and managing functions in DEI, HR, and Talent at companies like AWS, Latham & Watkins, and Year Up. She believes that when we prioritize closing equity gaps, our workplaces can become spaces of learning and growth where everyone thrives.
TWITTER: @Katrina_HRM
Transcript
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello, and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And you can hear the full body smile in my face as I talk. So let me let me introduce our guest, Katrina Jones. And together we’re going to start by exploring the time we’re in of people really pausing and reflecting and prioritizing different things in their life and how things have shifted, and what does that look like? And what does that look like personally, but also how do we adapt to that in the workplace? So as always, we’ll see where our conversation goes. But I’m so excited! All right, so here’s, for those of you who may not remember Katrina was actually one of our first guests and we talked about how do we stay soft during hard times, which is one of our top downloaded episodes, so if you have not checked it out, please be sure to do so. So Katrina Jones is the founder and CEO of Advancing Equity and Inclusion, a diversity, equity and inclusion and talent consulting and coaching firm. As a principal consultant, she helps organizations connect their programmatic efforts to comprehensive DEI strategies that help accelerate their progress in building more diverse teams and fostering more inclusive, equitable and psychologically safe cultures. Katrina has more than 15 plus years of experience leading and managing and functions in DEI, HR and talent at companies like AWS, Latham & Watkins in Europe. She believes that when we can prioritize closing equity gaps, our workplaces can become spaces of learning and growth where everyone thrives. Katrina.
Katrina Jones
Yeah, Sarah!
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hi honey. Welcome to the show.
Katrina Jones
Thank you. I am honored to be a two time guest and to be reunited with you again. It have been too long.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Reunited. And it feels so good.
Katrina Jones
So good.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It feels so good.
Katrina Jones
Yes, ma’am.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I do just want to reach through the screen and give you a big, just a full body hug.
Katrina Jones
Hug, yes. All the way to the toes. Like tippy toes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Everyone joining us. You know, we’ll just invite you in this love fest, in this journey. No, but one of the things I’m so excited again, for those of you who maybe remember the conversation Katrina and I had is you bring such a depth of wisdom, a poetic way of talking about very human challenges and struggles. And and I’m so, just excited to be in conversation exploring and the timing, the timing of this topic, is – I think it’s always important.
Katrina Jones
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But it feels like there is a collective shedding.
Katrina Jones
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
By some folks, not everyone, but a collective shedding. So, so first, just catch us up, you know, what do you want us to know about you since last time we met up together on here?
Katrina Jones
Oh, gosh, I feel like I have lived three lives (laughs) since the last time we talked. I’m literally in a different state and city. My relationship, main relationship has changed. My parenting status has changed. And I’m a full time single parent now.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Got it.
Katrina Jones
I’m living in Houston, Texas. I’ve gone back into consulting work now, which I really love. And partnering with so many brilliant people who are doing the work on the inside of companies, right, as these momentous shifts are happening. Yes, internally within companies, but in our world. And I mean, we see signs of it everywhere, right? The strikes happening right now. So yes, some of it is about pay, fair pay for the labor that people are doing. But there’s an undercurrent and a thread, I think through all of it, of people wanting more in their lives, wanting to be able to do more and certainly money as part of that, right. But wanting more for themselves, for their families. And that’s, you know, what I have also been living is peeling back the layers to realize I want more. The things that I thought were really important, like, going back to and looking back at twenty-something-year-old me and the vision that I had for my life, the goals that I set, achieving so much of it really and probably more than than what I expected, and then kind of stepping back and saying this is it? It doesn’t feel like how I thought it would feel. I thought I would feel XYZ. I thought I would feel this, I thought I would feel like really like I’ve made it like, I’m at the top of Mount Everest, right? Like, my life is sorted out. And I’ve been –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Don’t you love 20, 20-year-old ourselves that are like you’re gonna figure it out, –
Katrina Jones
I do, yeah!
Sarah Noll Wilson
And it’s gonna feel so great. And then you realize it’s a lie.
Katrina Jones
Yeah. All of it is a lie. That it’s not, not when you’re 30, not when – guess what, you don’t.
Nope, you’re just figuring it out.
Yeah, all along the way. But when you’re in your early 20s, you’re like, Yep, this is what I’m gonna do. This is what my plan is. I’m going to do these things. This is where I see myself. And, you know, you cannot predict how life goes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Katrina Jones
And how the vision that you have for yourself will change. Like the things that were important to me 10 years ago. They just they don’t have the same resonance.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Well, and even I, I what one of the things that I see, even four years ago, –
Katrina Jones
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What, you know, what has, what’s important has shifted and has changed. And, and I’m curious, you know, what, what are you observing related to that wanting to do more? Because that’s definitely something º the re-shifting of work as the centralized thing. That’s still very true for a lot of folks. And for others, it has to be true, because of the way our system is set up. So that they can get the finance, you know, the money that they need to live and survive. But there is this overwhelming sense of more people are saying, Ah, I don’t, I don’t know that I want to tolerate that anymore. I don’t know that I want to put up with that anymore. And that’s not that’s not worth it. That’s not the trade off isn’t worth it to me for what I’m getting out of it. So I’m curious, what are you observing?
Katrina Jones
And you said four years ago, and I mean, think about four years ago, like when you said that I immediately thought back to, okay, four years ago, I was probably like, flying, I was traveling, I was working really hard. And that was kind of my, my pride and where I felt a lot of fulfillment or good bit, you know, chunk of fulfillment. And I’ll be blunt here, I don’t think you can see millions of people die. Right. Like literally overnight.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Katrina Jones
And where and across generations, ages and not be affected by that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
Katrina Jones
Yeah. Seeing people who, you know, just like you were working really hard, you know, put, you know, putting in those 60-70 plus hours a week, and then, you know, you’re in the ground or you’re in a jar, and that’s your life. And so I what I think is happening for so many people is they’re seeing that the time between the moment that you enter the world, the time between, you know, the period at the end of your sentence is really short. We think it’s long. And it ain’t. (chuckles) And I feel that intensely. I have felt that intensely, you know, yes, because of the pandemic and seeing so many people, you know, die at young ages, people, you know, in my network who have been, their lives have been affected, right? They’ve got long term COVID, long term illnesses and other illnesses. And also, you know, before that, seeing my mom pass away, what was a young and is a young age, you know, she was 75 and I thought she was going to live to be like 100 with modern health care and, you know, a good Whole Foods shopping habit. And, and it just made me pause and step back and, you know, realize, wait a minute, like, okay, I’ve done these things. This has been really important to me, but I don’t, I don’t know, I don’t know. Like if I if I had you know, 30, 40 summers left, is this how I want to spend the time? Is this how I want to spend the time? And that is what I think is happening for people all across the globe, and especially, you know, workers in recalibrating their relationship to work where, you know, we spend more time at work than we do with our families, with our loved one. Is that the right equation? I know, it’s what it always has been.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Right.
Katrina Jones
But is that what it should continue to be?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Is that what it should be?
Katrina Jones
Is that what it should be? Um, and that just, you know, having that, the pause that I think we’ve collectively had, leaves, open and create space for us to ask these questions about what we want our lives to look like? How we want to spend our time, who we want to spend our time with?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, there’s two paths that I want to explore with you. And one, one path I want to go to, for a little bit amount of time, is exploring and examining the workplace response to this. Because one of the things that – I’ve observed is, you know, whether it’s a frustration by those people who are in positions of power and authority that people are questioning things that they didn’t question before. I mean, just, I mean, literally, just this weekend, I was at the farmer’s market, and stopped by this stand, where they do dog food, right dog treats.
Katrina Jones
I love those.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And yeah, and it was really sweet. But it was an interesting conversation with the owner. And I said, Oh, you know, like, how’s business going? And love that you’re a woman owned business and right, like, happy to support you. And, you know, and she was, she said, You know, it’s just really hard, because like, people just don’t want to work anymore. And it’s always interesting when I hear that phrase. I’m gonna be honest, it really triggers something in me, it pushes against something hard, because it’s one thing to say, you know, staffing is hard right now. It’s hard to find, you know, whether it’s part time, whether it’s within the budget I can afford, it’s just difficult right now, in a way that it wasn’t. And, and it was an interesting interaction, because I said, I said, I hear you. And I said, you know, the pandemic changed a lot for a lot of people. And her response was, “That’s over!” And I went, okay, well, it’s not, but okay, but it’s different. But I said in so I just I said, Well, here’s what I see in my work, right?
Katrina Jones
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Is that that it really challenged people’s fundamental beliefs and values and how they wanted to spend their time. And you know, and to your point, what they thought was important, isn’t what they think is important now. And and so I’m curious to get your thoughts on this, because I haven’t talked about this on the show. It just came up with a client last week is, especially as companies are exploring that return to office and hybrid and what do we do? And obviously, there’s a big push by senior leaders to get people back into the office and workers are like, Whoa.
Katrina Jones
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
One of the things that feel so different about this time is that isn’t unique to an organization. It is this collective energy on top of the strikes, on top of – and so I’m, I’m just curious to hear your your thoughts and thinking about how this reevaluation, this recalibration, this prioritization is pushing against how work has always been done. And I know you’re preaching to the choir. And we’re here for it.
Katrina Jones
But I wonder where, what is going to be that final thing that sets the match, because it feels like we we get closer and closer to a boiling point with every event that’s happening, and it’s so interesting now to see. And this is such a contrast between where we were, and yes, during a this as a full on pandemic, right. Where there was much more flexibility, employers were adapting. And there was the sense of this is a time when we need to adapt, we need to experiment, to be flexible, right? We’re going to, we’re going to do this and things might change, what we know is nothing is constant now, right? And what I see and perceive is a desire to get back to a state of constant that just doesn’t exist anymore.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Katrina Jones
Like we are, we are not getting back to people getting on planes and flying and being in the office, you know, four or five days a week. Even though folks are trying to get people there by hook or crook, right, and now, you see a lot of It being yes, judgmental and compliance driven. There was an article about TikTok, they have an app that tracks employee’s time in the office. And if employees are not meeting the desired time in the office, they get notifications, all these things. And they’re not the only one, right? The surveillance is happening. But what you’re seeing is less that flexibility, that adaptability that’s being pulled back, right? That’s being erased. Like it, like it didn’t exist. And I was at an HR networking event last week. And this was a hot topic of conversation, because employers have mandated a certain number of days a week, three days a week, or five days a week, people are talking about what they’re doing. You know, somebody was saying, “Well, we’re going from four days a week, like from three to four.” Okay, well, then, what about five? And it will work for some people, right? And maybe it works – the employer is trying to drive collaboration, connection, to drive innovation. And they want people to be in the building, because that’s where the magic happens, or they think that’s where the magic happens.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right and that’s where it’s happened to this point for them.
Katrina Jones
But what they’re running up against is people saying, you know, actually, working from home really makes my life easier, right, I am able to work a set number of hours, I’m able to also maybe get some some things done. It makes my commute easier. I don’t want to spend my time, you know, 10 hours a week or more commuting. That’s not how I want to spend my time, I want to be able to pick my kids up and like take them to the playground in that hour that I would have been commuting from the office. And that’s, we’re not, I don’t think we’re at the reckoning point. And I, I imagine we will be there. I’m not a fortune teller, but I imagine we will be there soon. I just don’t know what that event is that’s going to tip us over the edge. But I, something has to give and what I would love to see leaders, employers, I would love to see like, especially mid senior level leaders come together and say, Hey, this isn’t working. And we are going to collectively, you know, protest, or we’re going to collectively influence, you know, senior leaders, management, executive management, to take a different approach. And maybe it’s hybrid, maybe it’s just some flexibility, right? I think you have to do what works, yes, for your company. But also for the talent you want to attract, which people prefer flexibility. And it’s not just young people. It’s not just moms, it is like everybody, and there are some people who who, across all generations will will actually want to come into the office because they like being in person. So what, what can you do to adapt in this moment, in the way that you were adapting, you were experimenting, you were willing to try different things and say, Hey, we’re going to try it. And if it doesn’t work, we’ll do, we’re going to modify, we’re going to tinker in the same way we would do with any business problem.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I think – one of the things that I’m seeing in some organizations, and it’s interesting to, I don’t know that I’ve made this connection before hearing you talk about it. Because in our work, we do talk a lot about experimentation. And how it’s important to do that. But the thing that I hadn’t I hadn’t connected till you are talking about it, is the fact that we were all forced to experiment, we were all forced to try new things. We were all willing to say it might not work. And let’s figure it out. And I think one of the traps that I’m seeing is decisions are being made as a decisive decision instead of an experiment.
Katrina Jones
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And so then you have team members who are going, but what, what’s going to be the evidence of success here? What’s going to be the measurement? What what’s going to be the evolution of this? And there’s a experience or a perception that no, this is just the decision and whether right, wrong or otherwise, senior leaders have authority. I mean, that’s also just a reality. They can be decisive with it. But I think that point you bring up is a really important one of for the people who’ve thrived or found new ways of you know, of having the restrictions lifted of what was possible, it can feel it can feel constrictive now, yeah. Because because there doesn’t seem to be that openness and that willingness, and –
Katrina Jones
There’s just a declarative statement.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s just a declarative statement. And again, there is the authoritative right for them to do that. And then there’s also consequences to it. And or people might need to decide, is this where I want to work? It’s also interesting to hear the idea of like, and what if middle management just protested? And I was like, shit. Yeah, like, I mean, well, what would happened?
Katrina Jones
And I named them because in some companies, where they’re surveilling and relying on compliance, middle managers are are the responsible one.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And they don’t necessarily want to be, like some of those I don’t want to be.
Katrina Jones
I feel so bad for folks, right, like managing teams, managing people is hard enough. And I’ve got to have a conversation with you now about how you’re, you’ve come in two days, but not three days. And what is the issue? When I know the issue is working from home works better for you, and you’re just as effective. You’re, you know, you’re just as connected. You’re just as innovative. You just can’t come in three days. You just can’t come in three days a week. And that, what do you do with that? Right, like, managers don’t have the tools to be because, really, what’s the solution there?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Well, yeah. And, and how does – I mean, I understand measuring expectations, I get all of that, but that the language you’re using of surveillance is really interesting. And and how does that impact trust? And how does that impact, I mean, just how does that impact trust in your, your, like commitment to me? And yeah, I just think we’re in real interesting times.
Katrina Jones
And I use that language intentionally because –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I can tell.
Katrina Jones
Like when I, when you have a work badge, you and you scan in, you know, that’s being clocked, right? And that somewhere, there’s a machine if they want to, they can pull up all your swipes, right? We could do this like a law and order episode, like you were in at 9:02, you were out at 6:04. But it – you internalize that when all of a sudden there are messages going out saying, Hey, we noticed that you’re only here two days instead of four days. Or you see colleagues who are being pulled into meeting rooms to talk about how they’re not meeting the requirement, right? It’s, or there’s an app, that’s – how am I? How should I feel about that? Right, like I know, and now I really internalize it, you were tracking my moves.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. And I don’t know about you, I certainly don’t thrive in that kind of environment. (laughs) I don’t think most people do.
Katrina Jones
It doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t feel good.
Sarah Noll Wilson
No. Okay. So that’s an organizational exploration. And obviously, this is a topic that we can continue talking about. And this will be one that I have some future guests that will continue too, but I want to, I want to take us back a little bit and then go more of that personal side of reflection and letting go. One of the things when you were talking about, you know, the vision you had when you were 20 about what your life would be, and then you got it and you’re like, is this it? (laughs) Is this is this all? Or you know, sometimes or you, you accomplish it and you’re like, you’ll shoot what’s next, like I did – now what? What are some of the what are some of the the traps or potential, what do I want to say? Thinking traps that could get in people’s way of being able to step into new possibilities?
Katrina Jones
Oh, they supposed to’s. I’m supposed to, I’m supposed to. I’m supposed to be married, to stay married. I’m supposed to. I’m supposed to want to have kids. I’m supposed to have kids. I’m supposed to want to move up the organizational ladder, I should want to get a promotion. I should want that head of whatever. Why don’t you want that the supposed to? I think in buying into other people’s visions for what you should be doing including, you know, your parents or other loved ones as well as as comparison. Right? So seeing folks who are about the same age and same industry or similar. And you’re seeing, you know, they’re, it’s like they’re on that super fast escalator. And you’re on a slower one, right? And you’re looking at that saying, Well, gee, I’m just as smart, I work just as hard. You know, why am I not there? I should be. But is that what you really want?
I was talking about this with a friend. And they’re, they’re in a particular, they were in a particular industry, they’ve left it more or less, and they have their own practice. And they’re still connected to their, the industry that they left, and I’m pausing here, because I think they’ve still maybe got like a couple toes in, right. But that’s not where they are. And they see peers who are, you know, senior level executive, and all that comes with that, that looks really shiny, I think on the outside, because you’re just seeing maybe an article that they co-wrote or published, or a LinkedIn post where they’re at this big event, or etc, or they’re in a commercial. So you see that and you think, well, gee, that could have been me. And we were talking about about that, and about what it was bringing up for them. And I asked him, but but is, is that what you want to do? Well, no, no. And it’s hard, because you will see that, you will, there’s that comparison, the envy piece, and that’s, that’s normal. I don’t, there’s no judgement about that. I think when you feel it, you should. Tap, you should tap into it, you should really feel it and say, Okay, what am I feeling? Why am I feeling that? Is it because I really want that? Or is it maybe because there’s something about my current path that maybe feels a little uncharted, unsettled, or is taking me in a different direction, and maybe I’m mourning the loss of what I thought I was going to do. Where I thought it was going to be, what I thought I wanted, as I’m pursuing this newness that, I believe is where I want to be. Is going to be more fulfilling. But all of that the, you know, I’m supposed to, the comparison, that that envy that comes with comparison, and thinking about where, where you think you’re supposed to be, or you should be, relative to where you really want to be. And it’s hard to –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Katrina Jones
When you’re in between those two, to even get the time to step back and say and think. And some of that is because you’re so busy. So what what happened for me was that I was always so busy, I didn’t really have time. Like, where things were really quiet where I could really think. But I would get little bubbles that would pop up from time to time. And I just kind of like, alright, I don’t like and then I’m off to the next thing. And then at a certain point, because of some health scares I had, I had to really pause and things were quiet. And in that silence in that pause, you know, you can’t keep like pushing things down, batting it away. You really have to reckon with it. And it’s just, it’s hard to even have the time and space to do that. And if you do the reckoning part, like because you can just say it or let me put you in the basement. Not today.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. You could, you spend so much time on autopilot too, right? I mean, and, and I appreciate the different things that you called out. You know, just this morning, I was telling Nick, like, ah, I’m finding myself comparing myself to these people, and I don’t even know why. And it’s not even like to your point. I’m like, it’s not like I actually feel threatened.
Katrina Jones
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But there’s some part of me that’s like, anticipatory, right, like threats or something like that. I’m like, I don’t know where this is coming from. But, and shedding that, that vision of what you thought would be and especially in our, you know, we’ll speak American culture there is these really strong life milestones, right? You’re supposed to, you’re supposed to get married, you’re supposed to get the job. You’re supposed to be really career driven. And you’re supposed to have the kids, you’re supposed to. And that was something that even it took me a while to have the courage to say no to.
Katrina Jones
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
For us. We’re right. We’re childless by choice. And that did not come easy for me. Because I was like, there must be something wrong with me that I don’t.
Katrina Jones
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That I don’t have that yearning. And you know, and the other point that I’m glad you brought up, and I was going to ask about is also the grief. Especially, especially if you’re in a situation – well, you know, what I’m gonna I want to walk what I was just going to say back, there can be grief and loss when something is decided for you. Maybe your let go from a job, partner leaves, right?
Katrina Jones
Unexpected.
Sarah Noll Wilson
A literal death, something unexpected, that’s out of your control. And there can still be grief, when you choose. When you consciously choose to go on a different path, there can be grief for that identity of, of what was and honoring that and giving space to that. I feel like especially in our culture, we, many people don’t give the space for that loss.
Katrina Jones
We don’t, we don’t. And we think about grieving as singularly being tied to death or to loss, right? That, some of the examples that you named like unexpected loss of a job. Yes, people can understand some grief, but you really don’t get the time and space to actually be with it. Like, if someone gets fired, we think they should kind of be on to the next thing and what like a week, maybe two, they should be over it, right. And the reality is that there are stages, there are so many emotions that you might go through. You might be heavily impacted by some trauma as you are going through the grieving process. And it’s not something that you could just like spend a weekend in the tub. And just, you know, Calgon it away or whatever, laugh it away. It’s not going to like, a few bath bombs aren’t going to take it all down to nothing. And especially, I love what you hit on, the grief even in intentional choices that when you walk away from that big job or that career arc in an industry that you pursued that you devoted yourself to. Or that relationship, right? That a couple of years ago, you might have been thinking about, what are we going to do for our 10 year anniversary, and now you’re figuring out the divorce process.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Katrina Jones
And I say this as somebody who has gone through that recently that there was grief in it and realizing that, you know, some of it was, I felt like I was blowing up my life. Right? So so some of the grief that I, that people go through is like, is the just I’m stepping out into this unknown. And it’s scary. And it’s a courageous choice and intentional choice. But I know folks won’t understand it. They will probably give me flack for it. And yet and still I’m walking into this wilderness.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah. It’s, thank you for sharing that so, so vulnerably and – you know, what was coming up for me is, and it’s okay that other people don’t understand it.
Katrina Jones
Yeah. So that’s the, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like, that’s, that’s not always easy, but it’s like, it’s yeah, like, this is what was right for me. And or there may be information you will never know, or whatever the case is that contributed to this decision. Or, you know, because sometimes I think we can you know, you you see people as simplified versions of themselves.
Katrina Jones
Oh yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Or, like the identity of, well, no, it’s you know, if it’s a relationship it’s it’s you in this person. Or if it’s a job, Oh, well, you’ve always been in this kind of role.
Katrina Jones
What else will you do?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And and not only is it courageous to quiet your space down so you can listen to the things that are bubbling but it’s so courageous to take action on those so I just want to I want to name you know, without knowing all the details of your circumstances, like I can tell that it is a real big act of courage for you to live your true and take whatever steps forward to, to have you know what this new chapter is for you.
Katrina Jones
Yeah, it’s it’s, I think it’s hard. And I, I am open and vulnerable about it because I think it’s important to do so to know that yeah, you could be even if you’re decades in, right if you’re – I often hear this about people who leave a particular industry after they’ve spent X amount – Like, but they’ve built up a successful career, how could they just walk away from it all? But you can, like that’s the beauty of –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Katrina Jones
Of life is that you could pick up and say, you know, look, this no longer serves me. And I’ve got to do something different. And I don’t know what that different is right now. But I’m gonna figure it out.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And that’s totally okay.
Katrina Jones
And that’s perfectly okay. But it is. It is also hard to do in a world that expects you to have answers, to have a five year plan, a 10 year plan, and to have everything mapped out neatly, and that things are going to be a constant, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. It’s the this whole idea of uncertainty and a comfort with it is something that I’ve been examining for myself, more related to my anxiety and OCD. And from the standpoint of so much of, so much of anxiety really comes down to a discomfort with uncertainty. (laughs)
Katrina Jones
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And so and just realizing that literally, everything is uncertain, it’s uncertain that your life will look the way it looks now. It’s uncertain who you’ll be with or not be with, or it’s uncertain. I mean, it’s all it’s all uncertain in that, that, that that felt, it seems so obvious. (laughs)
Katrina Jones
Oh, I know. Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But it was so profound when I made that realization of Oh, shit. This is really a discomfort with uncertainty. And to realize, like, literally nothing is certain. The only thing that’s certain is death, right? Like, at some point, –
Katrina Jones
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We’re gonna die like that. That’s like, –
Katrina Jones
Literally.
Sarah Noll Wilson
The one thing that we’re really certain about, like, at some point that’s gonna happen. But like, what happens between now and then and you can’t predict what 20 years will bring, what 10 years will bring, what life will be like, and, and, you know, and so there’s a bit of, of savoring where you’re at, and also embracing the transitions when they come. Because I do feel like it’s it’s not if it’s when they come.
Katrina Jones
When. Yeah, I think the savoring is really important as well. And it’s my, my therapist, who is awesome. Had me go through an exercise that, you know, we, over the different roles that I’ve had, in different organizations, I’ve had some really amazing opportunities. And there also have been some challenges. And, you know, some trauma mixed in and one of the exercises she had me do was to just look back over a period of time, and write down some of the things that I learned, some of the good things to come out of those experiences. And her, you know, rationale was, you know, we can get into a mindset where everything is, we’re looking at things from a very binary perspective. It’s either all good, or it’s all bad.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Yep!
Katrina Jones
And things are just aren’t neat and simple like that. Right? So even when you are walking away from that job that was great, or that was the high profile, or from the marriage that people thought was perfect or great. You know, there were some things that led you, might have led you to leave. And there are some things that are worth celebrating in that. And lessons also that maybe you’re taking away from that experience that are worth holding on to and there’s a – as I was going through it, I came across a quote, and I can’t recall who it’s attributed to, so forgive me, but it’s on my wall right now on a sticky. Pain that teaches us and pain that holds us. So the lessons because you will experience the pain and what is it that it taught you? Maybe it taught you about boundaries? Maybe it taught you about prioritizing yourself. Maybe it taught you that you should be mindful about how much time you give to work, to your career. That you should spend more time, make sure that you are intentionally carving out time with people that you love and being present in those moments. And then, yes, there will also be what I call the hot like fire.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Katrina Jones
That’s like, all right, I learned stay far away from the gas stove where the flame is shooting up with sparks. That’s it’s all bad. I got I got a scar for that one.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs) It’s, it’s, uh, that quote is really beautiful. And one of my challenges is that, because I’ve been in situations where I was able to turn the pain into a pretty powerful transformation, that sometimes when I’m struggling, I want to speed up the process.
Katrina Jones
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, I’m that way. Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it was. That was something my therapist called out. She said, I know that you get to a point where you go, I’ve internalized this. I’ve learned about it. I want to teach other people or I want to, right, like, yeah, like, you want to be able to say, what’s the lesson here? She’s like, you’re still in it and it’s okay that there’s not a lesson yet, but there will be. And like, don’t, don’t rush, like, I see, you’re like, I’m anxious because I’m not to that clarity yet. She’s like, and remember when you got to that clarity before it took you about a year or so. And you’re only a few months into this journey. And so so it’s an that’s an interesting experience I’ve had of don’t rush the lesson. (laughs) Like, don’t let the pain hold you too long. And sometimes gotta sit in it until you can move through it.
Katrina Jones
Do we have the same therapists, Sarah?
Sarah Noll Wilson
I don’t know. They sure sound very, very skillful in the same way.
Katrina Jones
Yes. Yes. That is, that is something like as I was, you know, finding my way through an experience. You know, my therapist validated like, Yeah, this is shitty. This is hard. And it’s gonna be hard for a while. And, and when she said it, I was like, wait a minute, aren’t you supposed to, like paint this with some flowers? Like, paint this over? (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Give me the coping mechanism to feel better about it?
Katrina Jones
Yeah. But telling me, you know, hey, and it’s gonna be hard for – that was – I appreciated that reality and that affirmation to help me embrace in this moment, like, this isn’t going to be something that you could positive, you know, think, bath bomb your way by the weekend, you know, to into a good space like, this is going to be hard for a while. And I, you know, I think the exercise and extracting the lessons, the good realized is really additive, it’s really helpful. At the same time, I think it’s also important to make sure people have the space to say this just sucked. This was awful. This was a shitty experience. And I’m glad I’m out of it now. Because that exists, too. And I want to be careful, because there’s so much that you could position basically as like, Hey, you can just like positive, you know, you can positively affirm and positively think or cope your way out of it. And that’s not the case. And it’s perfectly acceptable to, to just say, this is shitty. And I’m glad to be out of it. Or this was terrible. And I’m glad to be out. That that’s awesome.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And it’s, and it sucks. And it’s the right thing for me. And it’s hard and I know. It’s temporary. But it’s still hard.
Katrina Jones
It’s still hard. Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, and sometimes it’s – I think, especially in our hyper positive culture of, right, find the silver lining that sometimes there it just can be really powerful did to be like this is yeah, this sucks. Yeah, it’s just like, there’s no I don’t I’m not gonna tell you anything else. It’s hard. I know you’ll get through it. And it sucks right now that you’re in it. And yeah, you know, like, yeah, at some point, will you be in a different place and different reflection of it? Yeah. And it sucks.
Katrina Jones
And it sucks. Yeah. And it’s going to suck for for a while.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. What would you say to people who are listening right now who might be thinking there’s some changes I need to make? Like they’re on that precipice of being courageous, whether that is taking a new career step, maybe that’s leaving a toxic job, maybe that’s shifting their relationship, whatever. I mean, even you know, the shifting relationship isn’t always walking away from relationship, it can be stepping into a relationship when you haven’t had it or stepping into a new kind of relationship. What would you –
Katrina Jones
A change in relationships. Like, having friends that you’ve been friends with for decades, and realizing you’re not friends, your friends in a different way, right? Your friendships change, your relationships change. There is also grief with that. Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What would you invite that person to hold on to, reflect about, or consider, as they take that first step?
Katrina Jones
To, to seek out quiet and stillness. And I mean, really be still. And we don’t, we often do not get the chance to do that. And if that means, like, you go somewhere for a weekend. And I mean, when I say still sit with the silence, because for me, like, I really have to sit in silence, there are a lot of ways I can fill my head, be it with like, a podcast, music, etc. But when it’s really quiet, that’s when it all starts to come in. And you can really hold up the decisions that you’re considering, the past, and really examine them. And so you have to get really quiet. And really still. All the internal chatter, all the external chatter. So go somewhere where you can do that. And another piece of advice I would share is to not worry if you cannot see what’s next. You only have to maybe take like one step, right? And sometimes that might be just a conversation, it might be sending that email, or whatever it is. But you don’t have to have everything back down. You don’t even have to have five steps. You just need like, be comfortable, be solid in whatever you’re going to do, whatever the decision is, and just take one step, the one step at a time.
Yeah, I love that. Katrina, you’re such a gift to this world, to our audience, to me. I’m so glad, I’m so glad that we had you on. Now for people who may be thinking about either, Oh, I’d be curious to connect with her ,to learn more about this, to work with her, to bring her into my organization. What is the best way for people to connect with you?
Please find me on LinkedIn. That’s the best place to find me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, perfect. And we’ll put that in the show notes. So thank you, my dear, for showing up, being so beautifully human, as you always are, and helping us navigate what can feel really scary. I mean, it just goes back to the title of the first conversation. How do we stay soft during the hard times?
Katrina Jones
I know, and this is part of how you, you know, this is part of how you stay soft and the hard times is you have to show up just fully you. Yes, be vulnerable, yes and show up in a way that reflects your values. Who you are striving to be in this moment, because it’s going to change.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you, my friend.
Katrina Jones
Thank you for having me. I adore you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Likewise.
Our guest this week has been Katrina Jones. I just It always feels like such a hug when I get to talk to her. I always appreciate her vulnerability, her humanity and her inviting us to step into our own humanity. And that quote that she shared, the pain that teaches you and then there’s the pain that holds you is so so so powerful and resonant for me right now. And we want to hear from you. So reach out to us at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson.com. Or you can send me a DM on LinkedIn where my DMs are always open. And if you’d like to support the show, you can do so in a couple of ways. First, if you haven’t already, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. The more reviews we have, the more exposure we get and the more likely we can bring on great guests like Katrina. Also if you want to become a patron, you can go to patreon.com/Conversations on Conversations where your financial support does support the team that makes this show possible and you’ll get some pretty great swag. I want to just give a huge shout out to our incredible team who makes this podcast possible. To our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo crew. And just a big wholehearted thank you to Katrina Jones for showing up and just being her amazing self. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So my friends till next week, please be sure to rest, rehydrate and we’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.