Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Jacquette M. Timmons as they discuss our relationship with goals – how we set them, how we assess our successes and failures, and how we must reassess and recalibrate them over time.
About Our Guest
Jacquette M. Timmons is on a mission to change how people think, behave, and talk about money. It’s why she focuses on the human side of money. She works as a financial behaviorist and is committed to getting you to see that you don’t manage money – you manage your choices around money. In addition to being an author (“Financial Intimacy: How to Create a Healthy Relationship with Your Money and Your Mate”) and frequent blogger, Jacquette is also the creator of Pricing Made Human®. PMH is designed to help entrepreneurs and small business owners tackle the question, “What should I charge for this?,” from all sides: the financial, the emotional, the personal, so they can price more confidently, strategically, and end up with a thriving business and thriving life.
She also hosts the podcast, “More Than Money.” When she’s not providing behavioral-based financial coaching for smart, driven, and curious high-earners, she’s traveling the country for speaking engagements on behalf of Fortune 100 companies, AM Law 200 firms, nationally known non-profits and conferences (large & boutique) to talk about the intersection of emotions and money.
Her work has been featured on Minnesota Public Radio, SiriusXM, “Good Morning America,” Oprah.com, CNN, HLN, FOX, Black Enterprise, NPR, Reuters.com, and the Wall Street Journal. Jacquette holds an MBA in finance from Fordham University’s Graduate School of Business and an undergrad in marketing from the Fashion Institute of Technology. A combination she credits, in part, for being able to blend her analytical mind and creative spirit in service to helping her clients shift how they look at money; how they perceive its role in their life; and how they give it direction. She lives in Brooklyn, NY and can be seen running in Prospect Park most days of the week.”
Resources mentioned
- Jacquette’s podcast “More Than Money”
- Book: Financial Intimacy: How to Create a Healthy Relationship with Your Money and Your Mate
- Financial Wheel
Transcript
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining us back! I have to like step away from the mic – is Miss Jacquette Timmons, you may remember she joined us on the show last year, we talked all about our relationship with finances. If you have not listened to it, you need to, as she gives some incredible advice. But we’re so excited to have her back onto the show and exploring the idea of we’re moving into the end of the year, and how do we maybe rethink our relationship with goals and meeting them or not meeting them. And as always, as I told her before our call, I said, I plan on at some point just offering up money for what will be a powerful free coaching session for me, so. Okay, but first, for those of you who haven’t met Jacquette, let me tell you all about her, her credentials, so you can understand why I love her and also be sure to follow her.
Jacquette Timmons is on a mission to change how people think, behave and talk about money. It’s why she focuses on the human side of money. She works as a financial behaviorist and is committed to getting you to see that you don’t manage money, you manage your choices around money. In addition to being an author of Financial Intimacy, How to Create a Healthy Relationship with your Money and Your Mate, and a frequent blogger, which highly recommend, check out her newsletter. She’s also the creator of Pricing Made Human which is designed to help entrepreneurs, small business owners tackle the questions, “What should I charge for this?”, from all sides, the financial, the emotional, the personal so they can price more confidently, strategically, and end up thriving in business and thriving in life. She also hosts the podcast More Than Money. When she’s not providing behavioral based financial coaching for smart driven and curious high earners. She’s traveling the country for speaking engagements on behalf of Fortune 100 companies. She’s nationally known to nonprofits and conferences to talk about the intersection of emotions and money. Also, just like let’s keep piling on the accolades. Her work has been featured on Minnesota Public Radio, Sirius XM, Good Morning America. Oprah.com, CNN Headline News, Fox, Black Enterprise, NPR, Reuters. Reuters? Right? Why did – I feel like I read it a lot, but I don’t think I’ve ever had to say it out loud. And the Wall Street Journal. She holds an MBA in finance from Fordham University Graduate School of Business and undergrad in Marketing from the Fashion Institute of Technology. Which is a combination she credits in part for being able to blend her analytical mind and creative spirit in service to helping her clients shift how they look at money, how they perceive its role in their life, and how they give it direction. She lives in Brooklyn, New York and can be seen running in Prospect Park most days of the week. Jacquette!
Jacquette Timmons
Yay!
Welcome Back!
(laughs) My dear, it is such a delight to be back. Thank you so much.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So who are you now since last time we met and talked?
Jacquette Timmons
Oh, my goodness, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s a big question. I know.
Jacquette Timmons
It’s a huge question. It’s a huge question. So who am I now? I am someone who is, is kind of walking that really fine line between being extremely grateful for what has unfolded, and yet still being a bit perturbed about what hasn’t. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
I feel like that could go lots of different ways whether you want to think about it personally, or what’s happening in the world.
Jacquette Timmons
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, grateful on so many different levels. You know, as we were talking in the green room, one of the things that’s been fantastic about this year is not only speaking engagements coming back, but also coming back and being in person because I just love that. And, you know, I started off the year with a goal of three. And to date, I have seven, and I still have three more to do and who knows what might happen before the end of the year. So that has really been a huge, huge, huge blessing. And yet, on the other side, you know, there’s the speaking arm of my business and the coaching arm, and the coaching part has slowed up a little bit.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jacquette Timmons
And, you know, I am – How do I put this? My year to date is more than half of what I did last year, but it’s not where I want it to be.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jacquette Timmons
And I’m, I’m looking at the gap between now as when we’re recording this and the end of the year, and I’m like, how the heck am I going to do that? And, so grateful, because I exceeded one goal, and yet frustrated that another goal that I have just feel so out of reach, and yet also so close. That’s who I am right now. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
I feel all of that (laughter) and what and what a beautiful description of the complexity of humans. right? To be celebratory, and also struggling or frustrated. And, and I will say, folks, while we we will likely talk about and explore these topics through the lens of business ownership. The reality is, is we all have times in our life where we’re excited about where we’re at, and maybe struggling with where we’re not at yet. And –
Jacquette Timmons
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, what the operative word being yet? And and how do we, how do we navigate that? That was something that you had shared a number of blogs you had written, and there’s so many great little insights and tips. And so you know, let’s start with one of your one of your newsletters talked about the ebbs and flows of business ownership. And I know when I first started, my accountant was like, there’s gonna be peaks, and there’s gonna be valleys. And I’m like, yeah, yeah, yeah, makes sense. Nobody prepares you, for the valleys. (laughs) Even when, you know, you, you know that your work is resonant, you know that it matters, you know, that you’re, you’re doing the, you know, you’re doing good stuff to keep business development, sometimes things just happen. A pandemic happens, you aren’t as getting as much exposure, it isn’t, companies are getting nervous about certain topics or right? Like, or whatever it might be. So that was one of the things that, like, if I could circle it, you’re like, intellectually, I was prepared for the, the ebbs.
Jacquette Timmons
(laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Emotionally, I was not. And I was just like, it kind of was a trauma response for me back to last year when I was literally just on my floor talking to, and whoever I could trust to say, What am I doing wrong?
Jacquette Timmons
Yeah, you know, I think we all know, we’ve all been told about the ebbs and flows. And I think there’s one thing to know it intellectually, as you said, there’s another thing to be prepared for it financially. So in my own case, I’m grateful for the fact that I was prepared for my recent sales slump financially. But I was totally, totally taken aback by my emotional reaction to it, and the whole rabbit hole that I went down in terms of asking questions, like, you know, what, am I doing wrong? Or, you know, what’s wrong with me? Or where did I miss the signals? And I think the the nuance there, the trick there is that those are actually good questions to ask. But they’re not good when you’re asking them purely from the standpoint of, you know, self blame and self doubt, because you don’t create anything, when you are steeped in those two postures, if you will. It’s just you’re in this cocoon of, Oh my God! (laughs) You know, you’re so blinded by that, that you can’t even see very clearly, what are some of the possibilities that might await you? And what are some of the and I don’t mean this to sound Pollyannish. But what are some of the benefits that are coming as a result of whatever that you know, ebb is that you are experiencing? Whether it’s a sales slump, or I also had what I felt like a creative slump. (laughs) Like, whatever might be the slump. There, if you if you are open to it, and you don’t try to suppress the feeling and skip over it. And bypass it. It can actually hold some wisdom for you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And sometimes you just gotta go through it. I mean, it’s the that point. I – Yes. I mean, just yes to all of it. We, we definitely, I definitely went through a really tough time last year, because we were, from a business development, doing a lot of big things. Book, podcast, Harvard article, we are getting exposure, and that takes time to pay off. And I’m literally sitting there looking at my account going man, we we’ve been so consistently, we’ve been able to manage, right? Like we’ve been, we’ve had, we’ve had enough level of success. And I’m sitting here going, I don’t know that I have payroll for more than one month. And it’s it’s really hard. It was hard for me. Let me rephrase that. It was hard for me to not go, “Do I have what it takes to run this?” And suddenly the doubt became – and you’re right, they weren’t questions of curiosity, of okay, well, what could we have done differently? What do we need to be paying attention to next time so we’re not caught off guard? Because let’s be real and most, like in our business, the signs will be there –
Jacquette Timmons
They’re always there.
Sarah Noll Wilson
If you’re measuring that, right? If you’re paying attention to it, and and – but how do you how do you think about that, not from a place of just beating yourself up but a place of okay, what do we do differently next time to get ahead of this? That was really hard. And it’s a, it’s a, for me anyway, I’ll clarify. Like, it was real hard to not just feel like a total failure when everyone’s like, Wow! You’re like, killing it! I was like, I’m, yeah, sort of. Like, I’m really proud of all of these.
Jacquette Timmons
You’re like, my bank account is not reflecting that. (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, (laughs) and I would like to have a little bit more like comfortability, right?
Jacquette Timmons
Right. Yeah. Totally, totally. You know, I was just thinking as you were talking, and I was seeing two things. I was seeing this current moment. And then I don’t know if we talked about this last time, but I was also flashing back to when my CPA at the time, asked me the question, “When are you going to stop mortgaging your life?” Did I tell you about that?
Sarah Noll Wilson
(quietly) No, no.
Jacquette Timmons
So this was probably about six years or so into my business. And we’re, you know, it’s tax time. And I go to my CPA’s office, and he says, “When are you going to stop mortgaging your life?” And I’m looking at him like, what do you mean? (laughs) Well, what he, you know, brought to my attention, was that my business wasn’t doing as well as I thought it was doing. And this is why I say, you know, A. Two things. The signs are always there and two, you’re going to go through it again. Right, so but I’m in a different position than when I was back then. And what I what he was pointing out for me is that I was masking how well my business was doing or not doing, because I would dip into my savings one month, or another month, I might sell some of my investments to cover the shortfall. And back then, initially anyway, I was managing money exclusively. So, well, but when we’re having, when I first started my business, I was managing money exclusively. And so adjusting to getting paid monthly, no matter how the portfolio was doing, to getting paid quarterly a month after the quarter end, and never knowing how much it was going to be because it was dependent upon the market value of the portfolio was something to adjust to. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jacquette Timmons
And sometimes it was like, okay, I’ve got enough and other times not. And so I would do one of those two things. And so here we are having this conversation. And it was just, you know, that phrase, Come to Jesus moment, it was my Come to Jesus moment of holy crap, I now have three different ways of generating revenue. Managing money, speaking and coaching and none of them are putting me in a position to meet my obligations from a business standpoint, personally. And I ended up having to do the two things that I did not want to do, A and B, I was taught not to do because I grew up in a household where you didn’t have debt, that was the message and you saved. And so here I was, depleting my savings, (laughs) depleting my investment, and increasing my debt. (laughs)
Yeah. Just like a two punch hit right there.
But 20 years later, I am here, you know, still standing, much stronger, and now able to withstand a slump in a very different way than I was back then. And I one of the reasons why I wanted to just share that story is that, make sure we’re taking the lessons from those slumps, whatever those slumps are so that we can apply them and make sure – you know I said in one of my recent posts, I can’t recall which one, but I was journaling about all the things that I was feeling. And I was like, Don’t let this challenge be a single use lesson. And I think that that’s important that we don’t let the things that we go throug just be a disposable lesson and move on to the next thing. Like make sure we are carrying forward something and if it’s something that you can share with other people so that they don’t have to learn it the hard way. Or as hard. Do it. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s a, that, that language and visual is so good. And, you know, sometimes we’ll talk on the team as “smoothing the waves,” but a friend of mine is like, I think you’re trying to build a better boat. And I’m like, yeah, no, that’s actually it. And –
Jacquette Timmons
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Because, because it can be real easy. And again, let’s say you’re not a business owner, and you have some unexpected emergency funds come up or, or emergency expenses, or whatever the case might be. You know, for me, I know, one of the lessons learned was, one just have way like, be really intentional when we can to keep a certain amount of money in the bank. And even when there’s a good year, that doesn’t all get paid out in bonuses. We are going to keep and probably an I think you and I have talked about this, I tend to be more, even more conservative with like, being cash heavy, because I don’t on some level, I don’t want to experience what I experienced last year, through that lens. And, you know, but also being creative to say, okay, well, we just need to, what’s the – my colleague, Mary, who has now joined us from a business development. You know, she uses the language like, what are the levers you can start pulling? Like, what are the levers that might be different than what you want to do? But what are the levers we can start pulling just so you can start to ease that. Because exactly to your point, when you are under a place of stress and survival mode, it’s really hard to be creative. It’s hard to be curious. It’s hard to be even collaborative, because it’s easy to come from a place of scarcity instead of a place of abundance.
Jacquette Timmons
Yes. So true.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What, you know, when you think about the, the emotional waves that come when you find yourself in in a slump, what are some of the lessons like you’re holding on to, or want to pull out as you move forward?
Jacquette Timmons
I think one of the biggest ones is the reminder (laughs) that I’ve come through it before. And so I can figure it out again. And it may mean tapping into a different pool in terms of resources, or trying something that I haven’t tried before, or that I’m nervous about trying, like redefine what is risk. Because I think sometimes when we get into this mode, we tend to be even more risk averse, when maybe we need to actually be even bolder. And so just kind of reminding myself that A. You’ve been here before. So you have the, in your DNA somewhere, you have the history and the memory of coming through the challenge and getting on the other side. So don’t forget that. And then also, make sure that you’re not dismissing something simply because you think it’s too risky. Like maybe there’s a way to do it, where you feel safe to experiment. But you still take the risk. So off the top of my head, those are the two things that come to mind.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, you know, it’s something that I would add, that I was, I was reflecting on as you were talking. It’s funny how you get some space, and you get a lot of like clarity (laughter) when you look back.
Jacquette Timmons
Yes. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Is, is also testing assumptions. I mean, that’s part of what you’re hitting on. I remember, I was talking to my lawyer, who is also my cousin, which is a glorious family member to have, and and I said, yeah, I think you know, my accountant’s like, it’s okay, if you want to do an investment in your company, right. Just if that is gonna give you some security to see, he’s like, you can loan your company money. And first of all, I was like, What? He’s like, If somebody gave you a loan, you would write up a promissory note, and they would get some interest. And it’s no different than if you and Nick were moving money over and I was like, well, we wish we would have done this sooner. (laughter) But, what was such an eye opening thing was, again, the self talk I had was, I must be a failure because I have to do this and my cousin who’s done, is more of a serial entrepreneur and works with entrepreneurs at his law firm. He was like, congratulations, like, and also this probably won’t be the last time you might need to shift funds to infuse. And you know, and I think that the other thing that was a really powerful turning point, you know, my accountant was like – and he’s like a curmudgeonly old man, like, I love him. But he’s, you know, he’s my curmudgeon. (laughter) But what’s so when –
Jacquette Timmons
He has something in common with my CPAC.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Does he? Well, okay –
Jacquette Timmons
Well, I’m not working with him any longer. May he rest in peace. But he was the, he was an old – so I’m Jamaican American, so I feel like it’s okay for me to say this. He was an old Jamaican man who was the one who said, “When are you gonna stop mortgaging your life?”, in a Jamaican accent. (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. I love it. But I mean, my account, and when I first started, he was like, people pay you to do this?
Jacquette Timmons
(laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I was like, yeah. And he was like, alright, and now he’s, like, super proud of me. He’s like this proud, proud papa. But he said, “Sarah, who better for you to invest in than yourself? Like you, you know, you’re gonna, you know, this is temporary, you know, you’re going to figure it out. You figured it out before? And who better for you to invest this in?” And that that was such a powerful shift to get me out of, I’m a failure to no, this is just the reality of owning your own business. And, and what am I going to do now? Right? Like, what’s the investment I want to make? And, but also, just like, the I didn’t know, I didn’t know that this was like a normal thing. I didn’t know. And my cousin, slash lawyer was very much like, I’m kind of excited that you’re feeling this. And I was like, that’s terrible, why? (laughter) Because you’ve been pretty profitable to this point, he’s like, and I think it’s good for you to like, now have to pay attention to things differently. So you can catch it sooner. And it’s, it changed the game for us.
Jacquette Timmons
Well, you know, what I love about what your cousin is kind of bringing to the forefront. And it’s this a awareness that I don’t think we pay enough attention to, which is this idea that with each new level of success, something needs to change. Right? Something perhaps emotionally, financially, spiritually, in terms of your roles, in terms of your responsibilities. Perhaps your habits, perhaps your you know, beliefs, something needs to change. And I think him affirming for you, that this is actually an example of something good changing, and you needing to do something new, because you’ve reached a new level is actually a good thing. Because guess what, whenever you reach that other threshold, whatever that is, for you, the things that seem uncomfortable, now will see normal, but then you’ll end up doing something else that will feel uncomfortable.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And that my friends is Jacquette Timmons laying down the wisdom.
Jacquette Timmons
(laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Then I’m going to like pause and reflect. Yeah, I mean, it’s that, gosh, that’s such a, an accurate statement that what feels new and uncomfortable now is just, you know, and it’s funny, because when I talk to other fellow business owners who might be in a similar state, I’m like, “Well, you know, you can give your business a loan.” They’re like, wait, I can? I’m like, oh, yeah, here’s the promissory note. Let me give it to you. And it’s like, –
Jacquette Timmons
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Now now I’m on the other side of the fence with it.
Jacquette Timmons
Exactly.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, you know, and to and to be – yeah, just to – and I, and I think to try to celebrate those moments of evolution, because it can be so easy when you’re caught into the cycle of focusing on the deficit that you can forget to say, yeah, but look at, look at where we’ve come. Look at how I’m prepared differently, financially for this. Look at how we’re anticipating sales differently. Look at how we’re paying differently, or whatever the case might be. And to celebrate that evolution. Well, and something that I’m you know, I think might be it, it feels like a connection to this point you’re making. But you had talked about in one of your articles is just even our relationship with success. From the standpoint of do you want the very success you have and everything that comes along with it? I would love for you to tease that idea out because that that’s been provocative for me throughout the years, and so I’m really curious to hear your perspective on it.
Jacquette Timmons
Yeah, you know, I started paying a little bit more attention to it. There is a formal name for it. It’s called Success Anxiety. And I started paying a little bit more attention to it when a former client reached out to me and said, Okay, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve I’ve done the plan. I’ve reached the goals that we talked about. Now what? (laughs) And just adjusting to, well what do you do when you actually get the thing that you want. And so we talked about, you know that it is not an unusual experience. So what she what she was going through was normal. So that was a good thing for her to realize. I think the other thing was, again, reinforcing for her that with each new level of success, it’s going to take you out of your comfort zone.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jacquette Timmons
And so what do you need to do to adjust to this new comfort zone? And I think the other thing is, we sometimes don’t plan for what that, what that success is going to look and feel like. We know what the marker is. But we don’t really spend the time to think about, all right, I have ABC as my goal. I’m doing D, E and F to get there. I get there. Have I thought about, what am I going to do to celebrate? Have I thought about, what is it going to feel like? What will actually, what will it look like in terms of, how will I be a different person as a result of this journey? I don’t think and I’m guilty of it, too. I don’t think we spend enough time sitting in that place of curiosity, because understandably so we are so head, so head down, doing the thing to get from point A to point B so that we can have that success, that that reflective, that proactive reflective moment doesn’t happen until after we’ve reached that threshold. And now we’re like, Oh, my God, what’s happening?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. It – and I think there’s some, there’s some component of it that you can’t prepare for depending on what it is. You know, whether that is, you know, I think about when I first started, I like that, how cool it’ll be when I get to fly somewhere, I get to fly somewhere to speak. And now I’m like, I don’t want to fly anymore. (laughter) I mean, I will, and I do, clients. I love you. And I will come to you.
Jacquette Timmons
Zoom presentation? No problem.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And it is, you know, it’s interesting, because two things that are coming up for me. (chuckles) You know, when I, like when I started my company, it was just me, and I just wanted to see if I can make a go at it. And now that we’re not quite six years, but I’m starting to go, I don’t know that I want to keep up the pace that I’m doing. And I want to figure out how we grow it in a way that doesn’t mean more of my time. And I don’t know that I could have anticipated that because I think I would have been – but I think that that point you make is a really powerful one of and also like trying to be anticipatory about and what’s it going to cost to get to this point? Okay. Now my second point, again, I have to give this is going to be my love fest on my cousin Greg.
Jacquette Timmons
Yay! Hi, Greg!
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. I’ll send it to him and be like, – and where can you anticipate things? How do you prepare for things now, that might come later? That is a really inarticulate way. So let me just illustrate it. When, when I was in my last company, and I was doing work on the side and doing work internally, essentially the same kind of work, there came a point where I started to become protective of my personal intellectual property. Because I knew if I delivered it in the company, they would own it.
Jacquette Timmons
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I then realize this is not like, they’re not getting my best stuff, which isn’t fair to the organization or to the team members. And he was the one who said, “Well, why don’t you negotiate your intellectual property?” And I was like, Can I do that? And, and I’ll never forget the conversation we had. And I was like, well, it’s not like they would ever come back at me or anything like that if I decided to use it. I was like, it’s a legal insurance company. They’re not. I don’t need to go through this. And again, because he’s a copyright lawyer, he was like, “Sarah, you do not plan for where you are, you plan for where you could go. And the thing I will tell you is that if you become successful, people get greedy. He’s like, I’m not saying that’s going to happen. But I’m saying I’ve seen it happen so many times.” And that was profound for me of how do I prepare today, not for who I am today, but for who, who we might become as a company. Whether that is, you know, the personal, professional success, financial success. Yeah, and I think you’re right. I don’t think that many of us spend the time thinking and sometimes again, I think it takes someone else who’s like a couple steps ahead of us to go, Hey, FYI, you need to be thinking about this.
Jacquette Timmons
Yeah. And even if you don’t have the privilege of having that conversation, that FYI conversation, I think even just being able to observe. So that person that you think is several steps ahead of you, what can you kind of discern from how they are doing whatever it is that they’re doing? Whether it’s running a business or managing their career internally. What is it that you can discern from how they are managing their business or their career that makes you go, hmm, that’s insightful. That’s something that I can do. Or that might be something that I want to explore. One of the things that you said that it made me think about is sometimes, in addition to what we were talking about earlier of the slumps, and even what we’re talking about now, in terms of what can you prepare for? A question that I always ask my clients is, when will something break? And what will you do if something breaks? And I think that that’s really helpful in terms of just figuring out or just kind of mind mapping out? One, what does breaking mean? Does it mean just having one unsatisfied customer? And what makes that what makes them an unsatisfied customer or client? Or is it several? Or is it a tech thing? Like whatever could break that would just, you know, make you feel a little flustered? What is that? And how would you handle it? And I think that that goes to kind of Greg’s point, too, in terms of preparing for the future. Because if you think about what could break, it’s what could break in the future? (laughs) Or what are the ramifications if something breaks today? What are the ramifications of that for the future? And that’s one way I think of in terms of trying to be forward thinking, while you’re in the midst of the day to day reality?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, that’s such a great question. And I and I think you could apply that to so many situations, right? We, my colleague, Teresa, you know, when we talk about relationships, she’ll say, if the wheels are gonna come off on the bus for you during the day, what, what is it? Right, like more from, like, pet peeve or a right, like hitting your threshold. But it is like, okay, like, let’s just have a plan for if something’s going to, if something’s going to break on this trip. You’re taking a vacation, if something’s going to break on this trip, if something is going to, what’s what’s our plan of action? Which the, my anxiety brain really loves that too, from the standpoint of like, let’s just like what might happen? And, and, and, and some of those will be really obvious, you know, if you have team members, let’s say they quit, then what? You don’t, you don’t get the sales that you want, well, then what’s the action? And, and it makes me think of when we were in the process of – and this was actually quite a few years before I started on my own full time. But when I knew that this was coming, and I wanted to be just like, as prepared as possible. My, my, my financial advisor was like, What are your three biggest concerns? And I was like, well, like the biggest concern is, I don’t make money. (laughs) Like, that’s the biggest concern. And it’s like, okay, well, how much do we need to have in the bank? What other kind of of access, right might you need? And I also understand, right, like, there’s a whole lot of privilege in the resources and access to resources I have. So I don’t want to minimize that. But then I said, Well, what if something happens to me because I’m the only one making, I would be the only one driving revenue? He’s like, Well, let’s get your disability insurance. Oh,okay. And so I – it’s making me think about that conversation of what’s the, if it’s gonna, it’s gonna break, where’s it gonna break? And how do we? How do we see when it’s cracking before it breaks? Like, especially from the sales slump perspective, because in earnest, and I don’t know how if this is true for you, for me, it just, I literally didn’t have a system to even be paying attention to prospects until there weren’t any, or there weren’t enough.
Jacquette Timmons
Yeah, I feel you on that one. And here’s the sad thing. I had the information in front of me. I just wasn’t seeing it. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Jacquette Timmons
Right. So the message out there to all of us is it’s not enough to track. And sometimes maybe you need a second set of eyes to look at what you’re tracking, because it, it’s almost like, what happens when you glaze over something because you’ve read it over and over and over, and then someone else can read it. And the the mistake is so glaringly obvious, but you can’t see it? I think the same thing happens.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, cuz they will make meaning of it differently or right, like, call attention to it, and you’re like, but I’ve got money in the bank. (laughs) I’m not proud. But my first couple years was like, I got money. I mean, there’s money in there. And now I’m like, Oh, no.
Jacquette Timmons
Yeah. Right. Everybody has like, well, not everybody. But I think we all have that, that line where or that number where we see our business checking account, go beneath that number and we’re like urrrr! (tires screeching sound – laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
And then having somebody validate like, Yeah, you should be freaked out or like, No, you’re okay. Like, no, I need 12 months of, you know.
Jacquette Timmons
Totally, you know, but I, I think everything that you’re saying, just really kind of reinforces this idea that very few things go to plan.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jacquette Timmons
They just don’t unfold, I think it’s important for us to plan, I think it’s important for us to have a planning process. Because when it doesn’t work out, you have something to then go back to and say, well, what part of the process didn’t work? And not just focus on the fact that the outcome didn’t unfold the way you wanted it to fold. But I think we just have to remind ourselves constantly of the of the truth of the matter, which is that very few plans go as planned.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. Yep. (laughs) Which I feel is a theme. I think it’s a theme in these conversations lately is just like, an embrace that uncertainty, right? Like Like, like have as much of a plan as you can. And then, you know, and I think that, what you’re what you’re hitting on and what I’ve learned is and who, who, who are your resources? Because I know when I start spiraling in an anxiety way, as a business owner, I’ve learned like, who are my people that I reach out to to go? Should I be spiraling right now? (laughs) Or is this actually just a normal part of where I’m at? Because of the game I’m playing? Or at the level I’m playing at? Or how things have shifted? Or how, right like, and so who are those people that you can do that check in that that’s been really critical for me. And even on a personal level, like, hey, I just need to check in about this. And –
Jacquette Timmons
Yeah, definitely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Where am I off the mark?
Jacquette Timmons
I think your point about getting comfortable with uncertainty dovetails also with also getting comfortable with the reality. Because so often part of the tension, part of the stress is that we want the reality be something different than what it is. And if we would just accept it is what it is right now. It sucks. (laughter) But it is what it is right now. I just think then we can move forward in a very, very different way than if we are trying to resist the the reality of the moment. And so I think there’s a connection there between the uncertainty and the reality.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You should write on that. You should, that, I might just plant that seed as something for you to explore in a future article.
Jacquette Timmons
Okay, I will do that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That I might be interested in reading. (laughter)
Jacquette Timmons
So know, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s terrible. I totally just gave the work to you instead of. (laughter) But that is such a that’s such a great – I don’t know if you’ve heard this term. When I, 10 years ago, 10 years ago, when I was diagnosed with panic disorder, I was having repeated panic attacks. I had what my therapist at the time called grasping thoughts. I was grasping for a reality that wasn’t actually there. And every time I grasp for and here’s what it would sound like in this moment. I wish I didn’t have to deal with panic attacks. I wish that I could just go back to how I was before I had these. Right. Same with my OCD like I had moments of, I just want to have good days again, like I want to go back to how I’m feeling. And every – and she was the one who made the observation of, Do you see how every time you reach for this reality, like you’re reaching for this reality that’s not actually there. You’ve increased your suffering.
Jacquette Timmons
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And that was such a profound, and sometimes I forget it. And that like, hearing you talk, it’s just like, yeah, so okay, this is the reality. So now what? And and when we’re, and that’s not to say that we don’t we just had a lovely conversation with Katrina Jones, of like, and sometimes it’s okay to be like, it’s shit. This is this sucks right now and it’s hard.
Jacquette Timmons
Absolute.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And and like and what do I need to do next? If yeah, I’m like, Oh, I wish it could have had the two of you on because I think – next time.
Jacquette Timmons
Next time.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We’ll just do a panel discussion. Yeah that like how do you embrace uncertainty and except the reality
Jacquette Timmons
And that and that really goes, you know, going back to what we started off talking about in terms of the emotional reaction to the slump, I think it is also not suppressing whatever the emotion is that you’re feeling. And having an understanding that it’s not whether or not an emotion is good or bad. It’s that it exists along a spectrum. And I think we can often get ourselves in trouble when we’re like, that’s a bad emotion, but that’s a good emotion. (laughs) They’re all emotions. And you know, you can have a quote unquote bad emotion and a quote unquote, good emotion about the exact same thing.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. At the same time, like –
Jacquette Timmons
At the same time.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like, I’m so excited, and I’m so overwhelmed that is happening and I don’t know what’s gonna happen now.
Jacquette Timmons
Exactly, exactly. Like, just like me being, Oh, I’m so – you know, I felt self conscious about acknowledging that I’m really, really frustrated because I was really grateful. And it’s like, but they can coexist. It’s okay.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s the, I always have to challenge myself with not thinking like, it’s a good day, bad day. It’s just a moment, like this moment felt harder. Like, that’s the language I’m trying to use is like this, this situation just felt harder. And this moment, felt easier. And literally within an hour that will change. And, and just riding riding those waves. It’s, you know, so much of your work is about helping people reexamine their relationship with something that feels so tactical, right? Transactional as money and and I love this conversation of how do we reexamine our relationship? I mean, because, right, that’s like, what drives our responses to stuff. Now I want to be clear, actually, I want to, I want to like back back off of that a little bit of what I just said, but here’s the here’s why I was I was about to say, like, our relationship with whatever situation is in front of us. And it’s not as simple as like, thinking positive thoughts. That’s what I want to like, I hate it when people are like, just think positively. No, I, I don’t want to and I can’t or I have trauma or, this is very deep that I have to work through. But, but even being in that, yeah, just like the relationship with the discomfort differently, doesn’t mean that the discomfort goes away. It’s there. It’s just different.
Jacquette Timmons
Yeah, I think it goes back to can you even, do you even have the reserve to be curious about the relationship? Right. So when I think about the fact that we all have a relationship with money. Which is why, you know, I focus on helping people to, you know, improve that in some way shape or another is because that relationship shows up in so many different ways, right? I like to remind people that it shows up every time you swipe your debit card, it shows up every time you get a deposit, or you don’t get a deposit into your checking account. (laughter) It shows up when you decide to bring on a team member or you decide to adjust the time that you are, you know the length of time that you’re hiring them for the work that they do. It shows up. It shows up in your business, right? Does your business, does it feel like your businesses is feeding you even and I don’t mean that literally but just feeding your soul? Does it feel like it’s feeding you or does it feel like it is just zapping you have absolutely everything and you’re wondering what the heck?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jacquette Timmons
That’s, that’s those are all, you know, reflections of your relationship in that moment of time. And I think we talked about this before, but I think it bears repeating. I always like to remind people that our relationship with money is one of the longest we will have and it will ebb and flow. And it will change, the dynamics of it will change. Just like if you’ve been married for 20 years, the relationship that you have now at year 20 is very different than what it was at year one. It’s different.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that analogy. Well, and at that point about, do you have the resources to be curious? And I don’t remember who was talking about this. So I’m, I’m wearing my Chronically Curious shirt, right? Like curiosity is such a big, –
Jacquette Timmons
I need to order one of those!
Sarah Noll Wilson
I would love to, send us your size. We’ll we’ll hook you up. Yeah, just let us know. And if there’s anyone listening that wears a size small, because apparently we ordered way too many smalls. And so you let me know, I’ll cut you a deal. (laughter) But, but I think it was, I think it was on NPR. And I wish I could remember the context. But basically, they were like, understand that curiosity is a privilege. Because when when fundamental needs are met, fundamental, right, like shelter, safety, food, when those aren’t met, you can’t be. Like that, and that that was such a, that was so provocative for me. And, you know, and so hearing you talk about, like, do you have the resources to be curious? And, and or what do you need to stabilize?
Jacquette Timmons
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
To get to a place of that, you know, and that that can apply to lots of different scenarios and situations. You know, I think about my journey with my mental health that sometimes my therapist, like, I think you just need to soothe yourself right now and not try to learn from this. Like, I think you just need to soothe yourself to get you to a place where you then can receive, and do the work. Or whether that’s more tangible of I need some some kind of stability, financial stability, career stability, family stability, childcare stability, so that we can can can think about this. And I that yeah, that’s that’s always been really provocative for me. And in hearing you say that, I think it’s just an important reminder too.
Jacquette Timmons
Yeah, and the piece that I wrote, I can’t remember now, which week it was, but it was recently (laughs) talking about my, you know, sales slump. I did have, you know, a note below that said that I do recognize that I’m having this conversation, or the conversation that I’m having, is because I was financially prepared. It would have been very different if I wasn’t financially prepared. So. Yeah, I do. I do appreciate you even calling that out even some more because that, that that’s an important context to be mindful of.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And when we think about, you know, people who are in formal positions of authority and power or informal positions of authority, and power can be really easy to forget that like, well, of course, this you know, thank you, you have the resources for child care. You have the resources for like investing in your retirement, you have the resources – I think you and I actually maybe talked about this on the first time around, of, you know, just situations where, almost like having to educate some of the folks that – well my former CEO, super great guy, but really, in really passionate about retirement savings, really passionate, you know, so much so that, like the company has a very generous retirement match. It’s like 9%, or it was when I was there.
Jacquette Timmons
Wow!
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, very generous, because he’s so passionate about it, but then he would get frustrated when he would see that not everyone was taken advantage of it. And I was like, but understand that this is a single mom with three kids. And she’s a customer care rep. So like that, that’s like not in her purview right now. Because she’s, she’s trying to make sure she’s got enough money.
Jacquette Timmons
She needs much liquidity.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, exactly.
Jacquette Timmons
And cash flow.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And, and I think that, that that’s a real awareness for us to maintain about ourselves, but also to like, think about when we’re thinking about or looking at another person.
Jacquette Timmons
Absolutely. Nuance matters all the time.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Jacquette, I, I just love like I love you so much.
Jacquette Timmons
I love you to Sarah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I want to keep talking to you and I need to be I want to be thoughtful of your time. I know we’re just gonna be bringing you back on the show.
Jacquette Timmons
You know I’m always happy to be back, always happy to be back.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Nick and I are gonna come up your way. We’re starting to map out where our favorite people are and we’re like we just need to do is like you know if there’s a ball stadium double double plus for him.
Jacquette Timmons
Oh my god. So if you don’t come I’m before this current season, then come in the spring, and we’ll go to a Yankee game and we’ll do some foodie things.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, Yankees are fine.
Jacquette Timmons
I know you’re not a Yankee fan, but that’s –
Sarah Noll Wilson
I don’t even have an opinion. But I know that that’s provocative and so like, I always get some reaction. (laughter) But yes, no, we do. But I just I, what I, again. For people who are listening, follow Jacquette, get her newsletter. Again, like, I feel so fortunate to be in conversation with you and examining these topics, again, through such a human lens. And I just always appreciate your insight and how you, the language you use to explain things, and I always ended up going back and listening through like, oh, I need to take notes now on what she’s said. So okay. So for people who are sitting here going, I want to hire her, you know, which, FYI, she’s a hell of a speaker folks. And, and, and the topic is really applicable to every single person who needs to navigate money. Whether that’s you wanting to bring in a speaker to your organization, from a financial health and mental, you know, like wellness, whether that’s leadership, whether it’s women and banking conference. But so if people want to connect with you and learn more about your speaking and your coaching, and what’s the best way for them to connect with you?
Jacquette Timmons
They can go to my website, Jacquette Timmons.com, they can also follow me on Instagram or LinkedIn, because I’m active in all of those areas. And you know, for the speaking engagements, I think it’s really important to highlight that I am so excited that financial wellness is taking more space at the table of well being. Because, you know, PWC did a study, and they do it every year, every other year. And the stats are pretty alarming in terms of how many people are financially stressed. I mean, we all have, you know, a simmering degree of it. But of the people that are financially distressed, I think it’s 50. It’s either 59 or 56. Don’t hold me to that number. But people are so financially distressed that they are distracted. And they are spending three hours per week at work dealing with whatever the personal financial issue is. And so this is not just about doing a, you know, having a financial experience as a do good. It’s going to have a positive effect on your bottom line, because that person will be more engaged, more productive. And you know, you don’t have to spend a lot of money then on recruiting because you’ll be able to retain folks.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Jacquette Timmons
There’s a benefit to that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, that’s such a, that’s such a great point. Having lived that, having been there, having family members or friends who have been there. And, and I’m guessing in some times that number is even far higher.
Jacquette Timmons
Yeah, for sure.
Sarah Noll Wilson
All right, we’ll put all of your contact information in the show notes.
Jacquette Timmons
Can I just say one other think before we hop?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, please. No, you can, you can, I mean, take whatever time you need, this is yours.
Jacquette Timmons
Oh, my God, I just want to remind folks, especially because of where we are, at this time of the year. When it comes to the goals that you’ve not yet achieved, to really spend some time thinking about, what does it mean if you don’t achieve it? So that you can just get it out. Right? Get it out of your system already. And also, in the process of getting it out, maybe even figure out, what can you do to redefine that goal, or make that a goal that you carry over into the next year, but you carry it over and you carry it over with a different way of achieving it, perhaps. And I just wanted to remind people of that, because we can, as we were talking about earlier, begin to think of ourselves as a failure. And if you just kind of think about, confront that, right, just face it. All right, if I don’t do this, what does that mean? And who is it going to impact? That can either help you to put in place a contingency plan for this year. Or it can help you with preparing for how do you get to it hopefully then next year. So I just wanted to make sure to say that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that and actually, you know, you sharing that – Nick, let’s put in the shownotes links to some of the newsletters that she shared with me that inspired this conversation. So folks, you will be able to easily access that and then go be sure to sign up. So you can get that but it’s a it. Yeah, it’s just the like, it’s the calibration. I feel like, again, that’s another phrase that’s coming up in the conversation.
Jacquette Timmons
I love that word.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s just a calibration. It’s just like where we are now. Again, it goes back to your accepting reality. Like, this is, this is where we are. There was external factors. There was internal factors. We didn’t manage our time, or we overestimated how much time or we underestimated or a whole host of things. And like, and it’s okay, that we’re gonna, it’s okay if you let go of that goal.
Jacquette Timmons
Yeah, totally. But be proactive about it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Right. Right. And not from a place of shame.
Jacquette Timmons
Right. Exactly.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Just like exactly like, that’s, that doesn’t fit anymore. And that’s, that’s totally okay. Or to celebrate, like, I gave it my shot. And it just didn’t, it didn’t work out. And like how to how to celebrate that.
Jacquette Timmons
Totally.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, my love.
Jacquette Timmons
All right, my dear.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Till next time. Thanks for being on the show.
Jacquette Timmons
Until next time. Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week, is one of my favorite people, Jacquette Timmons. And, gosh, I have so many pages of what I’m holding on to. That last kind of message of reevaluating and reassessing your goals, but also that idea of how do we sit with the reality of what we’re facing? There’s so much. I’ll go back and listen to this one like I do many of them so I can take more notes. But we want to hear from you. What resonated for you, what came up for you, what connections did you make? And you can always send us an email at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson.com. Or you can send me a DM on LinkedIn where my DMs are always open. And if you liked this episode, and want to support the show, there’s a couple ways you can do that. First, if you have not already, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us increase our exposure so we can continue to bring on excellent guests like Jacquette Timmons. Also, if you’d like to financially support the show, you can do so by becoming a patron. You can go to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where your financial support will support the team that makes this show possible.
So speaking of the amazing team, let’s give them some love my friends. To our producer Nick Wilson, our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionists Becky Reinert, to our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. Thank you for being on this journey. And just a huge wholehearted final thank you to Jacquette Timmons. It’s always a gift when she joins us and I can’t wait for our future conversations. My friends, this has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening, for showing up. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So till next week, please be sure to rest, rehydrate and I’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.