Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Tamsen Webster, author of Find Your Red Thread: Make Your Big Ideas Irresistible, for a conversation on the power of effective communication to drive action.
About Our Guest
Part strategist, part storyteller, part English-to-English translator, Tamsen Webster helps experts drive action with their ideas. Tamsen honed her trademark Red Thread approach in and for major organizations like Johnson & Johnson, Harvard Medical School, and Intel, as well as with hundreds of individual founders, academics, and thought leaders.
She’s a former TEDx Executive Producer and current Idea Strategist. Most recently, Tamsen was named to the Thinkers50 Radar thinkers to watch class of 2022. She’s also the author of Find Your Red Thread: Make Your Big Ideas Irresistible.
Resources mentioned
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations, where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me today is a mentor, a colleague, a coach, a friend, Tamsen Webster and we’re going to be talking about how do we communicate our ideas and messages in a way that will create buy-in commitment and and depending on your needs, investment. So let me tell you a little bit about Tamsen. Tamsen Webster has spent the last 20 years helping experts drive action from their ideas. Part message strategist, part storyteller, part English to English translator. (laughs) I haven’t seen that part of your bio. I love it. (laughter) Sorry, caught me off guard. Her work focuses on how to find and build the story partners, investors, clients and customers will tell themselves and others. Tamsen honed her expertise through work in and for major companies and organizations like Johnson and Johnson, Harvard Medical School and Intel, as well as with startups that represent the next wave of innovation in life science, biotech, climate tech, fintech and pharma. She’s a professional advisor at the Martin Trust Center for MIT Entrepreneurship, and a mentor for the Harvard Innovation Labs. She has also served over eight years as executive producer and ideas strategist for one of the oldest independently organized TED Talk events in the world, TEDx Cambridge. Most recently, Tamsen was named to the Thinkers50s Radar, thinkers to watch class of 2022. She published her first book, Find Your Red Thread, Make Your Big Ideas Irresistible in 2021. She was a reluctant marathoner twice, is a champion ballroom dancer, in her mind, and learned everything she knows about messages, people and changes as a Weight Watch leader. True story. Tamsen, hi my friend.
Tamsen Webster
Hi! Oh my gosh, this is like the best day. This is automatically already my favorite podcast ever.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I want to – no, that’s good. I want to start every Monday morning just talking with you. (laughs)
Tamsen Webster
Yes, please. Date, date made.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I love it. Um, so okay, so what else do you want us to know about you?
Tamsen Webster
Oh, my gosh. Well, since the last time we talked, I’ve become the mom of retired racing Greyhound, which probably has nothing to do with your listeners, but.
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, I know but I love it, though. You’re human and we love to show the human side.
Tamsen Webster
This is great, great delight to me. Um, yeah, it’s just it’s been a really interesting few years. And really, I think anything else to know about me is that I just am endlessly fascinated by why people do what they do, how they decide to do that, what they need to hear in order to decide to do something different. And then how do you make, how do you know that and apply it so that you can help people get more of what they want and need and where it matters where you can get more of what you want and need, but all without manipulation or coercion. Because that’s actually that’s really important to me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah. That’s I mean, that that idea of without coercion is something we’ve been talking about a lot in our work with leaders of, right, real leadership is activating change without coercion.
Tamsen Webster
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and that’s, it’s, we need to talk more about that. Okay. So for folks, just so you know, I first, I think the first time I heard you on a podcast was Booked and Paid To Speak with Grant Baldwin.
Tamsen Webster
Oh, Grant Baldwin. Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And there was something about how you were talking about your, how you helped people think about ideas, how people could think about ideas, that I remember just thinking, I this is so different than how I feel like I’ve learned about things like storytelling and how to craft a message, that I wanted to work with you. And I think we started in 2018.
Tamsen Webster
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, yeah. I baby. I was a baby Sarah.
Tamsen Webster
Weren’t we all. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
We, yeah. I mean, (laughs) and so so I attended an intensive out in Boston, and, and we worked through a keynote, and then we worked through other stuff, and then we had you in working with our team. And, folks, you have Tamsen to thank for the clarity of curiosity being our anchoring practice. She helped helped me see that what was most obvious was obvious for a reason. (laughs)
Tamsen Webster
That’s often the way, that’s often the way –
Sarah Noll Wilson
It is. It is. So – yeah, yeah, no, go ahead.
Tamsen Webster
No, I just think that it’s it’s like that classic analogy metaphor, whatever it might be of, you know, the fish swimming in water. We don’t actually realize that what what the environment that we’re in the way that we see the world is often very different than anyone else. In fact, I am of the opinion that our outlook on the world is truly the only unique thing that any of us can count on us having and so the more that, whether it’s work that you do on your own or work that you do is someone else, to help hold up a mirror and to say, look, these are the places where how you see the world is different and powerful and valuable because other people don’t see it this way. That’s really important. So being able to see that first and foremost is, I think, a really key step, whether you are a leader or an entrepreneur, or whatever it might be, to really start there. And then the next step, of course, is seeing getting other people to see where the power is in that kind of outlook for them. And that’s where we often miss step, I’d say.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. There’s, the I feel like I have this laundry list of, well, if Tamsen was in the room, she would say that we need to, (laughs) we need to, we can’t, we can’t take him to the goal line. We need to get on the field first, like what’s gonna get them into the gate? So one thing that I’m curious about is, what was the start of you becoming so fascinated with helping people be able to communicate their ideas more effectively? Because, you know, I see this in the work that we do, I can only imagine how often you’re seeing it. Is you see people with good intentions, you see people wanting to make an impact, maybe wanting to create a culture that they want to create, maybe sell a product, even personally, right, like, how do I get my, you know, how to how do we as a couple move forward in a way that is going to be, you know, most helpful for both of us?
Tamsen Webster
Mm, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What, what was it that really drew you to thinking about how we can communicate our ideas differently?
Tamsen Webster
Well, I think, as with most people, it started with my, my own struggle. And I think that, you know, to some extent, you know, I know, (laughs) I don’t know where that came from. So one thing I know contributed was the fact that for most of my education, I was younger than everybody else in my class, or I went and I – so, you know, I skipped first grade, wooh! Accomplishment
Sarah Noll Wilson
You did? Like, because you’re just so wicked smart?
Tamsen Webster
Yeah, they just yeah, they, they – I don’t know that it was that. But for whatever reason, they’ve – I wasn’t challenged in first grade. So they moved me up to second. And so that meant that for, you know, I didn’t – I graduated high school when I was 17. I went to college. I went right into my MBA program from undergrad. So I started my MBA at 21, and finished it at 23.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Wow.
Tamsen Webster
So, so kind of four, and then so was and then in the work world, so one of the things that I found was, you know, there is that reverse ageism bias against folks that are younger. And and I would also say that probably, you know, as anyone does, before they really understand how the work world works. I, you know, was just like, “And my ideas are awesome!”
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughs)
Tamsen Webster
And so I was very frustrated sometimes when I felt like I had a really good idea, or I understood where you know, what I thought it would be a stronger, a better way to go. And I just really struggled to like, why can’t like, why isn’t just repeating what I think working? (laughs) Right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Why can’t I just send one email? And have people say, that’s great, let’s do it.
Tamsen Webster
Yeah. And, and so it became kind of this, you know, you can bash your head against a brick wall enough times, and eventually you kind of back away and go, there must be another way around this wall. And so I think that, I think, you know, I spent some time just kind of retreating a bit and just kind of observing like, well, what were other people doing? And how was that working? And what worked and what didn’t? You know, and fast forward, I would say, you know, as you read in the end of my bio, I really learned what I know about getting ideas across as a Weight Watcher’s leader, because there was no more thorough week to week immediate feedback, loop kind of experience. Because across 13 years, I did the math one time. It was 3000 presentations, all of which were designed to get a group of anywhere from 15 to 120 people to do or think something differently at the end of 30 or 45 minutes. You learn, maybe not quickly, but you’d start to learn what is it that works and what doesn’t? What, what builds people up versus what takes them down? Or what might get an action in the moment, but what ultimately works against you or them in the long term. And so, because I wanted to be a better leader, because these people, you know, these I became a Weight Watcher’s leader because I had lost weight and I really wanted to pay that forward. And so I wanted, I felt deeply this desire in this obligation to to be as good as I could be for other people who are in a similar struggle with their health. And so I would read. I would research and you know, I would take things that I learned from, you know, from my, you know, my official work world from what, you know what I was taught from a sales and messaging and marketing standpoint. And I would see a lot of that stuff wouldn’t work. And then I would see some of this other stuff that I would learn. And I would like, let me try that. And that would work. And then I started to take it and put it back into my professional life. And so, over time, it just meant that I had this really different idea about what would work both for individuals and at the market level. Because, you know, ultimately a market, a society is made up of individuals. So if you don’t understand what works at the individual level, you’ll never understand what works at the organizational level. So, it really all just started because I wanted to be heard.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Which I think is like, a very valid, valiant purpose. Especially, you know, especially as a young woman. Right?
Tamsen Webster
In Texas, in Dallas. I am painting a broad brush. But yeah, that was, you put a you stick a kind of semi brash, you know, New Englander slash, you know, Navy kid, you know, and drop her into into Dallas. It’s, yeah, she learned pretty quick.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So what? Okay, so what, where, where do we go wrong? You know, I, I have lots, again, there’s lots of lessons. And I have lots of stories of where, where they go wrong. But, you know, because again, this isn’t just about from a marketing perspective. We all are trying to communicate what we believe in, what we think should move forward in a way that hopefully will be heard. I mean, let’s just like, like it will be heard and maybe acted upon. So what are some of those things that we just get wrong? Or, or that we were taught to believe, if you just do this, then then this.
Tamsen Webster
Well, I think, I think that I think a lot of them can fall under the umbrella of we were taught to – how do I want to put this, we were taught to leverage pain. And meaning, you know, I’ve heard people say, Well, I have to make them sick, so I can make them well, or the classic challenger sales approach, if you’ve got to make the pain of the status quo exceed the pain of change. You’ve got to make people uncomfortable, you’ve got to, you’ve got to, you know, so really, there’s a lot in leveraging pain, you know, the thing that you will be smart, capable, good, if you do this.Other people are doing this, your competitors are doing this, if you don’t do this, you’re gonna miss out on this, you’re gonna lose that. And the seductive thing about that approach is that it works in the short term. In the short, it does, because we absolutely we are, we are wired to avoid loss. And that, in the moment, is a stronger motivation to avoid pain to avoid loss, etc. But what it fails to – what it fails to take into account is the deeper longer and therefore stronger beliefs that people have about themselves. And one of those most enduring ones is that they are, they either believe they are smart, capable and good or want to be seen as smart, capable and good. And so yeah, that actually, in the moment does drive of like, oh, you’re telling me I’m not so I’ve got to do this. But they’re, our brains won’t let us be not smart, not capable, not good long term. And so something about our brains will be like, well, but I, well, there wasn’t there hadn’t been a good reason why I was doing what I was doing before. And ultimately change itself is painful. So over time, people will always go for the less painful choice which is why a lot of change undoes, particularly if you’ve made someone feel less than, you know. Again, not smart, not capable, not good in the in the process of activating change. So I’ve gotten to a point where I sum that up is like pain may be the ally of quick action, but is the enemy of long term change. So if you are trying to do something and have something be long term, where we actually need to go is not to ignore the pain that somebody is feeling right now. That’s important establish establishes relevance, it helps to clarify the stakes of something. But the decision itself cannot be based in that person having been wrong. And that’s, that is really hard for a lot of people to wrap their selves, wrap their heads around, because we spend so much time not understanding how someone could possibly not be doing the thing we think they should be doing. How can they not just see the wisdom and the smartness of the rightness, the goodness of this other way? But it is ignores the fact that we ourselves operate from an internal logic. So do they. So the work is really about starting to flip that camera around and saying, this person, I need to assume that the person that I’m talking to is smart, capable, good. I need to see them that way, because they already see themselves that way. And therefore, whatever they’re doing right now, is satisfying that for them. And I, if I want them to do something different, I have to figure out a way not just with the ask, but with the approach to the ask, that helps them continue to feel that way. So really, what that ultimately means. And this, this blows a lot of people’s minds, is that we shouldn’t be challenging people’s beliefs, we need to be validating them. And that creates a whole other question, well, how can we change people if we’re not challenging their beliefs? But that’s, that’s where, to me that’s where the the great fun puzzle comes into play. Because I 100% believe that that’s where the answer to long term change lies, is in basing it on, maybe not the belief that’s currently in play with the current current action, but bringing another one in, that is as strong or stronger, but that supports the kind of – that supports a change in behavior.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s there, as you were talking, I was really thinking about our world of working with people who are in positions of authority, and how so often, one of the challenges we hear people struggle with is behavior change.
Tamsen Webster
Oh, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, you know, and coaching and feedback,
Tamsen Webster
Compliance.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What?
Tamsen Webster
Compliance.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And compliance Yeah. And, and, and when you were talking about that I need to see them as smart, capable and good, because that’s how they see themselves. I couldn’t help but go, so many folks we work with aren’t seeing the people they work with, they aren’t seen, you know, and again, I know, we can look at this, I’m just sharing what was coming up for me in my world of, of validating that of, of – Yeah, that’s such an interesting reframe. So, you know, so where do we start? You know, and I don’t know, if we just jump into the red thread to, you know, to help people think about that. And obviously, I’ll just keep pitching, you know, buy your book and work through, work through the red thread. It’s, it’s a tool that has become invaluable for us. And I still feel like there’s moments of okay, what’s, what’s the problem? What’s the truth? What’s the goal? What’s the action? And how do we get them there? But yeah, where do we start?
Tamsen Webster
Well, I mean, I think, you know, just as a, as a contextual frame on it, it really helps me in building on that smart, capable, good thing is that, you know, as I like to say, and as I say, in the book, every decision has a story. You know, every decision that we make has a story behind it. And oftentimes, it’s one that we don’t even realize that we’ve told ourselves, right? It is a, it is a pre conscious explanation of why doing X makes sense to us. Right? And mostly, what I mean by that kind of story, and this is true of all stories, by the way, is the relationship between cause and effect, like and so our brains are always doing that. I’m going to do this because or this person did that because or this action makes sense because, right? It’s a cause effect, cause effect, cause effect. And so one of the things that – that’s important to understand, first of all, is that it’s not your story about this that matters, it’s there’s so this is why seeing someone as smart, capable, good is so important. Because if they can’t tell themselves a story that reinforces that belief about this change, or what they were doing before, it won’t stick. Because you’re not going to tell yourself a story over time that doesn’t reinforce either the belief that you’re smart, capable, good, or if you don’t have that belief, that desire to be, right? And so, that’s important to start with.
Now, where a lot of my work over the last couple years has been focused is, okay, you can tell a pitch perfect story, you can fill in every blank of my red thread perfectly and it still might not work. And I was very curious about that. I was like, what, okay, well, why not? And if we think of the fact that okay, well, then I start to think well, okay, we’ve got these stories to tell ourselves and there was this hint in this smart capable belief, you know, good thing, belief that we have, but stories fundamentally are arguments for ideas, right. They are, and in fact, the stories that we say yes to the relationship, the the direction that we will repeatedly see about why something happens, fundamentally comes back to beliefs. So, to kind of restate what this process is then is that any decision any change is based on a story, but every story is based on pre existing beliefs. So that means that we actually have to, at some level, either start or eventually travel through the beliefs that would make something makes sense. But ultimately, in order to find those, where I find that like, all things start, all things start with what you know, I call the goal, which is really the core question. And this core question is, what is the core question that your audience is asking? What your – that your audience is asking? That this idea, this initiative, this approach, this project, this product. What core question for the audience doesn’t answer? Everything starts there. Because every story starts with desire. And if somebody has this question, and they don’t currently have a good or good enough answer to it, they’re immediately interested. And so this is one of those places where you can immediately correct something that might be going wrong with how you are presenting a change or crafting a message. Is that that you’re A, it may not be present. I see that a lot, where it’s just like, here’s our approach. Okay, why would I care? Like what what question does it, do I have that it answers for me? So A, making sure that question is actually present in your messaging, you know, how do you build by it? How do you navigate it strategically? How do you reengage your customers and your clients? How do we get our culture back to what it was pre COVID? Like? These are questions that people are actively asking. How can I balance kind of the joy I felt being home sometimes with the engagement that I know is necessary for work? These are the questions your audiences are already asking. And so the second place to really diagnose there is to make sure that it is, in fact, a question that your audience make – once there’s a question there making sure that it is in fact, an urgent and important question that your audience is asking, not one that you wish they were asking. That’s important. You can’t like slide in your desires into the question, it has to be a thing that they – I mean, I like to think of it as like, what would they listen, listen to a podcast on? What would they Google? What would they buy a book for? What would they look for a course on? What would they be asking their colleagues about? What would they be, like what would they sign up as a talk to go see? Right? And it’s not going to be, why should we buy your approach? It’s going to be, how can they do something for themselves, or for their company that is, – for those familiar with Maslow’s hierarchy is fairly far down on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. So for instance, there’s a big difference between a question like, how can we make our company more successful? Which is a great question, by the way, and is one that leaders are asking, with, what are the specific conversations that I can have that get people through those most difficult moments that we get to get in our way of progress, as you know, and and that’s a wordy one. But you see the difference is one of them is A, more specific and B, the the perception of the impact that it finally getting a good answer to that question would have for them is really big. So I see those are kind of the big things right off the bat is is there a question present? Is it from the audience’s perspective? Is it urgent and important? Does it solve a problem that your audience knows they have?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Tamsen Webster
I know, that goes against a lot of conventional wisdom, like, what’s the real problem you saw? I’m like, Dude, you can’t get to the real problem until you actually get through the problem that they think they have. Right? You’ve got to have an answer to that problem first. So everything starts with that core question. I refer to it as the audience goal for the sales minded amongst your audience, it’s also very much a qualifying question. Because simply put, if somebody doesn’t have that question, you know, they’re not your people. So yeah, like if your product doesn’t, you know, if your product answers that question, and somebody doesn’t have that question, why would you waste your time trying to convince them to have that question when there’s plenty of people, if you’ve chosen the question well, when there’s plenty of people who do?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, that I mean, that I remember going through that exercise when you came and worked with the team back in 2019. Just what are the questions? Like when you think about the clients you want to work with, when you think about the clients that you want to support, that you think you can support, what what are the problems? And that was such a profound shift of – and I still, I still find myself I think just last week, I was like, nobody’s going to be asking for this. They’re not going, I know this is what you want to sell them, but they’re not going to that’s not the problem that they have. And and I don’t know if you still use your metaphor of you know, American football.
Tamsen Webster
I sure do. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Do you?
Tamsen Webster
It’s very popular. Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Because it is well, I know when we were talking because you know, we were playing around with the elephant metaphor, you’re like, yeah, they’re not asking for the elephant, like, what’s the tusk? Like, let’s get and get them to like, see that the elephant is actually the problem?
Tamsen Webster
That’s right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And so yeah, so just for the audience, because I think this was this was super duper helpful. Well, and you know, and when you’re really passionate about something, and again, this, this can go if you’re a, we’re all selling something.
Tamsen Webster
We are.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Whether it’s an idea at work, whether you’re internal, whether you’re external, right, so this isn’t just if you’re in sales, quote, unquote, we’re all trying to influence change in our world, with our coworkers, with our clients, with our spouses, with our friends. You know, what does that look like? But that that idea of, not, what question do you want them to be asking? (laughs) Not what problem do you want them to think that they’re solving? What what problem are you actually? Like? What is the what is their most urgent problem that they think they have? So okay, yeah.
Tamsen Webster
We have to start that, because that I just keep saying that to people, like you have to get into their consideration set to start. In order for them to even remotely consider this, you need to answer a question they already have. I mean, so again, whether it’s a product, or whether it’s a change, it’s initiative, like, it has to anchor to something that they’ve already want. I mean, ultimately, the secret that I’ve discovered, and it is, if you think about it, it’s not a secret at all, is it if you want someone to buy in to a change, then you have to build a story, for all the reasons I just talked to, using elements that they’re already bought into. I mean, honestly, it’s the easiest way to do it. So it’s just like, listen, any piece of this story that you’re building, where you have to convince them that they want it, is more effort on your part, and more like, you know, the higher likelihood of failure on there’s, or at least rejection on there’s, right. So if you start your message based on something that your audience has already bought into wanting, it’s like you have already done a vast, a huge amount of work. Now to the to the football field metaphor.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Tamsen Webster
There’s a lot of change, there’s a lot of choices, right. And so, so here’s how I think about it. So if you think about a traditional American football field, and that the goal of that, right, if you’re the coach of the team and your potential audiences, or players on the team, your job as a leader, as a creator of this message, as the champion of this change, or this approach, or whatever it might be, your job is to get them to the end zone. And think of the end zone as them understanding that your idea, we’re just going to use that right now. That your idea, they understand that it solves the problem they know they have. They understand that it solves a deeper problem that they didn’t know they have. And they fully agree and are on board with the approach that it represents. Like that, like, it’s the endzone, but it’s also the Holy Grail, right? Like, because that’s the only way. Like, that’s what investment, that’s what buy in, that’s what true adoption, long term adoption looks like is, I believe this is good, this does what I want, it solves all the problems I have. And I agree with the nature of this approach. Okay. Now, like American football, depending on where the ball is, you play the game pretty differently, right? So if you are within the red zone, so that’s 25 yards to goal or 20 yards to goal. It’s fairly close to goal. That’s a fairly tactical game, right? So you’re really just figuring out like, we just need to move a few yards, we just need to know like, how do we get the ball just over the finish line. And your audience, your potential audience, that sits there is a group of folks that I like to say, understands and agrees with the nature of the real problem that is getting in their way. Right? So yes, they’re looking to improve the success of the business. Yes, they’re looking to navigate strategic leaps. But they understand the nature of the real problem is they don’t have a culture of accountability, let’s say, in their organization. And they know that. And now they’re looking to say, I know we need a culture of accountability. And we need accountability. And we need a culture of accountability. It has to be scaled throughout the organization. How do we do that? That is someone really, really, really close to the answer. Let’s say that one of my clients has, right. So it’s like, I understand the nature of the real problem. I understand the nature of the solution. And I am just maybe I don’t know that you exist yet. But I’m looking for a company that does this thing, to solve this deeper problem that I know I have. Okay? That’s a choice. So there’s, audiences can come anywhere. And so you can choose to sell only to people who know they have that deeper problem, which means, you know, there’s there are going to be people who are looking for the elephant in the room and how do we get rid of the elephant? But what you’re trading off is there’s not as many of those people.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Tamsen Webster
Your likelihood of conversion, the likelihood of adoption is much higher, because you don’t have to – there’s there’s a lot more about your answer about that story they’re already bought into. But there’s not nearly as many of them Let’s go to the other end of the field. So at the other end of the redzone, is what I like to call the 99 yarders. So they’re very far away, they’re still on the field, which means that they have a question actively have a question right now, that your idea, again, approach, product, initiative, whatever it might be, legitimately answers. So this is not a case of bait and switch, but they’re really far away. They’re really far away, they don’t understand the nature of the real problem. So let’s say your approach focuses on leaders, for instance, you’re talking to leaders, but they don’t understand that they as a leader are part of the problem, okay.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.
Tamsen Webster
And therefore, because they don’t understand the nature of the real problem, they have no idea about the nature of the real solution. Right? They have no idea that this has to be about curiosity, right? That has to be about them. And it has to be curiosity, not even on on the board. Now, there’s also value in these people.There’s a lot more with this nice, big broad question. But the leg just in football, there’s a lot more opportunity for them to drop the ball along the way. Because you actually have to move them down the field in in like smaller you know, smaller chunks. You just got to make the down, you know, they use the football term. Can you throw a Hail Mary, and somebody hears your message? And just instantaneously goes, Oh, my gosh, yes, of course.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yes! (laughs)
Tamsen Webster
And then. But that is not a strategy, right? Like that is not how you want, you don’t want to build a team on that. Like, you don’t want to build your whole change management efforts on that, right. Like, that’s not great. So that’s just a longer term play. But again, I have clients that they, they really want, they need to educate the market. And that’s often where that starts, is like, kind of the your day to day, kind of content strategy often will speak to that. So you’re introducing people to this idea that, you know, hey, the way we’ve traditionally been approaching messaging kind of is anti-change, it maybe pro-action, but it’s kind of anti-change, right? So there’s a lot of education that has to happen out there.
And in the middle, as you might imagine, is a combination of the two. So this is someone who generally does understand the nature of the real problem, say, in the case of your business, they do understand that they as a leader play a massive role. And they are actively asking, what can I as a leader do to accomplish whatever that goal is? But they don’t really understand what is wrong. Like they know, they know that they’re part of the problem, but they don’t really understand where the, where the solution, the best solution for them would lie. And so that’s where they are, they’re aware of the real problem, unaware of the nature of the kind of true solution as you’re consider it. And those people should get again, mix and match right there. There’s not as far to get them, but there’s not as many of them. So it’s it’s a, it’s a trade off. So the thing that I like to say to my clients is you can choose any of these folks. There’s not a right audience, there’s not a right, you know, right question, wrong question, whatever. The only the only challenge comes in is if you have a goal of reaching a huge number of people, but the nature of the question you’ve chosen, like, if you want, like the numbers of people that you would get at the 99 yards, but you’ve chosen a red zone question, then you aren’t going to meet your own expectations there because there just aren’t that many people with that question.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, well, and then, and I this again, I feel like this is still a metaphor that comes up for me, because then I go, and then we have people who aren’t even on the field.
Tamsen Webster
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, and then and that looks so different. And you know, so for us, for example. Nobody’s saying we need to be more curious and candid in their conversations. Nobody’s even necessarily talking about the elephant. Sometimes they are, sometimes they’re like, we don’t? For a lot of people, it’s we don’t like, we need to be able to have difficult conversations and really the the 99 like zone question is how do we how do we get team members to receive difficult conversations? It’s that’s usually the entry point for managers is, not how do we get feedback more effectively? But how do we get people to accept the feedback more effectively? And and that that is what we’re trying to solve for, right, by virtue of what we bring to the table. Well, in that, and that makes me think about another one of your concepts that I think is such an important one, is that idea of how we work through a problem ourselves, to ultimately solve it and come up with the solution. How we don’t walk people through that same problem. And so and let me – I’ll share how I remember it, and then you can push against it and tell me where I’m missing the mark or if I’m on. But, you know, let’s say I’m a leader in an organization. And I don’t know we have a problem. And, and we, you know, we gather data, we explore, we work with different vendors, we figure out what the solution is and then we arrive to our solution. Which maybe let’s say it’s new technology, we’re going to do this new technology. And one of the, one of the concepts that I’ve learned from you is how often when we go to communicate the change, or when we go to communicate the new new technology, we start at the end, and we say, Hey, we’re rolling out this new system. And here’s why we chose it. And then here’s, and by then people are like, they’re shut down. They’re confused. They don’t understand why we’re changing things. But what a simple shift to say walk people through the journey that you walk through, so that they can start to – so by the time you come up with, and here’s what we’ve decided that like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. That I see that, I feel like I see that in every organization that we work with, is that they go through this problem solving process. And then they start though at the end, and then they’re confused why people are resistant. They’re confused why people, they don’t have the buy in, right? That they’ve shut down. They’re like, they didn’t even hear what we were saying of what what problem we’re trying to solve. And I was like, right, because you didn’t even start with that. So say more about that, or how did they?
Tamsen Webster
I mean, that would be, that would be (chuckles) the way I talk about it when we’re talking about this in the keynote, that’s basically like telling people the end of the story. And that’s it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. (laughs)
Tamsen Webster
Well, it turns out for Dorothy, all she had to do was click click click her heels three times and wish for home and you’re like, Who is Dorothy? What the hell? And I don’t even know, right? I mean, it’s the equivalent. And, and the, (
(laughs) So great.
The next best thing that we tend to do is we give them only the beginning and the end.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.
Tamsen Webster
Right? Like, we’ll she wants to get away from home. Turns out, all she had to do was click her heels three times, and she would get back home, you’re like, I think there’s something missing in the middle. And so that’s the thing, like you take it out of the context of business messaging, and you’d be like, that makes no sense. This is my whole point, like the stories that we tell other people are no different in their structure or their requirements than the stories that we tell ourselves. People need the middle of the – they need the beginning of the story, because they don’t under – like they need to know what this gets. Again, I think I said it before, every story starts when we know what somebody wants, but doesn’t yet have. And we need to know what happened in between. So it really is, as I was reminded when I was talking to my son last night, it because I can never remember the difference. What it is, is actually pretty is presenting to get all fancy about it. The inductive reasoning for why this makes sense. We’re we’re leading people into our answer, rather than starting at the answer and having that then the kind of like, deduce and describe why we believe it’s the right answer. But nine times out of 10, starting at the end will land you in hot water, because you articulating your reasons, your personal reasons for why you think this is a good idea. But it is and I will say it again, I know I said it before, it is not your reasons that are going to convince them, it’s theirs. So you have to go back and and figure out from the beginning what reasons, what I was saying before, what are they already bought into that will help you get there? So we’ve already talked about one of those things, and that is to start with a question you know they already want an answer to. Like that makes it a lot easier. So even if you’ve gone through this whole process, sometimes even just saying, Well, you know, we started this whole process wanting to answer this question boom! Just tell people what the question was. Because, you know, whether – I w`ork with a lot of scientists, you know, I’ve worked with a lot of leaders as well. It’s just like, most of the time, it did start with a question. It did start with, how do we solve this problem? What would happen if? What’s the best way to? Tell them that? Tell them that? We wanted to understand this and then loop it back to why it matters to them. We needed to understand this question, because we know you care about how to do X, Y or Z or is this a place you want to be long term? Or can you count on this being a company that you can stay at for a while? Is this a company where you can grow? We wanted to answer this question, because we know you had this question, right? It’s just even taking your question and tying it to theirs is a good place to start. And then it’s to say, Okay, now that you know what we were looking for, we knew that was the problem. We did this research, we discovered this actually was the problem we would have to solve before we could solve that problem. Right? That is, this is a piece of, again, this is one of the core elements of all stories, whether they are internal ones or others, but it’s the recognition of the problem we didn’t know we had that has to get solved, before we can solve the problem that we do know we have.
You know, and when it comes to people who are thinking about these concepts in terms of differentiation, this is where you get to start to differentiate. You don’t differentiate on the question that they know they have, that gets you into the consideration set. It’s when you start to give your insight about why that problem has been difficult to solve? In other words, what problem do they have to solve before they can solve that problem they know they have. That’s where you start to really start taking a position on a different, a better way to answer that question that they know they have. Then that realization kind of disrupts, should disrupt the status quo for them. Oh my gosh, if that’s true, if I agree that that actually problem must get solved first, they can’t stay where they are. So this is a way to leverage pain, but not in a way that that attacks identity. And that’s what we have to really be careful about, right? Because you can leverage the pain because you’re saying, hey, just, here are two things, you believe. You want this thing, but you believe this other thing. Now, and now you realize, oh, my gosh, everything we’ve been doing has been to solve this one aspect of the problem, but not this other. Uh oh. They need to feel like there’s hope and that’s where that next stage comes in. So what else is true that means that this is possible for us to actually get out of this big conflict this this, you know, this kind of cognitive dissonance that we’re in? And that’s where that next, well, I call the truth comes in. Right? What other thing that not just you, the person initiating the change, but your audience agrees is true, without convincing. Again, what is it belief that they’re already bought into that indicates why going a different direction might make sense? And then what is that change?
So for example, I was speaking recently with a group that, a group of companies and types of companies in an industry where there is a home office and a lot of field agents, okay. And the way that it operates is that they wanted to introduce a new model, a new compensation model into this organization. But it meant that for their lot of their field agents, it meant a different way to get compensated than they were getting compensated before. So this has, like red lights hanging all over it as far as an adoption issue, right. And so but, you know, the they know that the whole reason why they started this was so just not only they as a company, but so that their individual field agents could make more money, more quickly, right? Like, and we’re just like, hey, we know you want to make more money more quickly. So do we. Now, what’s the problem? Well, the problem is that there’s a whole group of people who were not ever interested in the previous compensation model. Which means there was a smaller number of people that were available to make money with, right. But if we can all agree that more people means more opportunity, right? Then we have to figure out a way to get more people into the system. Everybody’s still on board? Great. And we have to figure out a way to get everybody in the system that captures what they care about, right? Because there’s this group of folks, the field agents acknowledged, there’s a whole group of people they weren’t able to capture. And so that says, okay, great, fine, we need more people equals more money. But what do we need to do differently? Again, you don’t skip right to the answer.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.
Tamsen Webster
You get them to see – again, what would they agree would say, well, the more options, right, the more opportunities that people will have to engage. So if we give more people more ways to make money, then we can actually start to loop those other people in. So that’s why we are starting this compensation system. Now, you can disagree with any of that. You may decide that you don’t want to make more money, fine. You can decide that more people don’t equal more money, also fine. You can decide that more options won’t get those people in, but if you agree with all those things, you will least agree in principle, you will understand why they went for the compensation system, rather than just saying, Hey, we’re gonna do a new compensation system, because it’s just, it’s gonna make you money. And they’re like, I don’t believe that, because to my mind, it looks like it’s gonna go against how I typically make money now, right? You’ve got to go back and really re-establish. So it really is just saying, and I think of it think of it now is we’ve got to establish I’m calling the bedrock beliefs, right? They are bedrock beliefs for why this new approach works. And the key to doing this quickly, simply and strongly, much like storytelling, also goes back to Aristotle. It’s about like, classic argument, structure. Principle, principle, conclusion. If principle A is true, and principle B is true and principle C is a logical conclusion of those two, then you’re going to agree that principle C is true as well. The conclusion C, and this is what we’re talking about. Because, if you believe, principle, more people equals more money, A. If you believe that the more opportunities to make money more, there’s more opportunities for people to engage. Principle B. Then a compensation plan that has more options will get more people to engage. Agree? Great. So if you want to make more money more quickly. That’s why we’re doing this. You with me? Okay. So can you still lose people after that point? 100%?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Tamsen Webster
We don’t we skip that, that whole process so often that I think we have so many so many pitches, change efforts, all of those things, just even even Critical Conversations fail in the, here’s why I believe this is the right thing. But actually, from a, from a true belief standpoint, not from a benefit standpoint. And that’s, I think, one of the places that we get really mixed up. We, we think that benefits are beliefs, and they’re not. Right? We have to actually start lower than that. And I mean, like, more core, more primal than that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
How do you guard against, you know, when you’re working with people, or when people who have authority or thinking about this practice? How do you guard against coercion and manipulation?
Tamsen Webster
Um, well, any. (laughs) I mean, so the, for me, the way to guard against it is to go back to what makes an argument true, right? So a story is literally an argument. So I said, it’s an argument for an idea. But it turns out, that’s literally true. Like, even Once Upon a Time stories, introduce one big principle, introduce another big principle. And then what happens at the end is the decision of what they do with those two things. And to be a valid argument, it’s gonna get a little geeky for a minute, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Tamsen Webster
Each of the, each of the principles has to be – so the argument has to be valid and sound. And by valid, it means it has to be complete. So you can’t just say, this is the best thing to do because it’s the best, right? That’s circular. It doesn’t have two principles, doesn’t work. Like one of the examples I give in one of my keynotes, there’s this eHarmony ad that basically, (laughs) it basically says, opens with this guy with this dog and says, This guy is my best friend. That’s what I want in a partner. That’s why I trust eHarmony. Like, nope, not a valid argument, right, like it’s missing. It’s not like, there’s something missing in between. They then couple years later did a refresh of that same thing. And then they say, Alright, I want somebody who fits with my life. Then there’s a there’s a piece of copy that’s read that says, We’re the app that gets to know you better to match you better. That’s why we trust eHarmony. Now that now they’ve put principle, principle, conclusion. Now it’s a valid argument, it’s complete. So that’s one way is to say, if anybody’s working with me, I’m like, it’s not a complete argument. And I think the more that we can arm people to say you didn’t give me a complete argument, nope, that’s not you’ve just given me, you’ve just given me another way to say this does the thing that I know that I want it to do. You haven’t told me why it does it that way. Why does that? How does it do that? And why does that work?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Tamsen Webster
And then, and this is the kicker, the argument has to be sound, meaning each of the elements must be true, right? So the conclusion has to draw logically from and each of the elements must be true. And the key is here that it must be true for your audience. And and I believe that, like, it’s kind of hard in my mind, for anyone to come up with this and come up with something that isn’t also true for them. Because if this is a change that you actually believe in, there actually is a reason why you believe this is true. Now, the only reason why this would happen is that if you just don’t want people to think that you are going after a thing, and you’re not and I just like well, that I can’t help you with. Right. Like if you really just want people to believe something that’s not true. Fine, but the truth will out over time, right? Like, favorite, favorite example of that is United Airlines, Fly the Friendly Skies. Dude. No, right? Like, you’ve got you. They’re about maximizing shareholder value, right? That’s what they’re about. That’s fine. It’s fine. But don’t say that you’re friendly, because you’re not. Like you’re friendly to your million milers. But you know, talk to the guy who’s guitar you broke, talk to the guy you dragged off the plane, like that’s not friendly behavior, right? So when you, when people can see that gap between what you say you believe in what you actually do. That’s where trouble comes in. So this is one of the things I’m like, you know, when I started really understand that most of our storytelling advice and messaging advice or whatever stops at the story level and doesn’t actually address the belief level. It really made me just, ah, it was like this huge mind blowing moment because I was like, it’s the beliefs that drive your behavior and your behavior, if you’re thinking about branding, drives the brand. Your belief drives the decision, your decision drives what you do. Right. And, and I remember working for a company that that used to set up, they still do, and this is not a critique of them. It’s just I have a different understanding now, where they used to say you have to figure out what people need to know in order to believe before they will do. And the more research that I do on this, that’s actually flipped. What people believe sets what they will, what information they even accept in the first place. And that drives what they do. So I think that’s, yeah, it’s just it’s – focusing on beliefs is everything.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, well, and I know there’s people listening, because so many of our audience are people who are either in leadership or in HR leadership positions. And, you know, I’m thinking of lots of return to office conversations and that have happened where the argument wasn’t sound, and it wasn’t complete. And then people go, wait a second. But, and I’ve always let – you know, I’m a big fan of, if it’s really because of this, just be honest about that. People will appreciate that more. Tamsen, I want to – I need to be thoughtful of your time, because I know we ran into some technical issues. So I want to make sure that we wrap up in our thoughtful and, and I thank you so much for coming. And I know there’s so much more we can talk about and explore. And we’ll just going to have to have you come on and maybe what we can do, which would be fun is like, yeah, like examine, like, what are some of the common things that are are happening? And how do you navigate that? Or if you’re the person who’s supporting somebody who’s having to be the communicator, how do you do this in a way? And you know, I’ll just, I’ll make the pitch for you. You know, two ways you can do this is check out her book, too. She’s constantly offering. Tamsen is constantly offering workshops and intensives. She has a really great newsletter that I highly recommend. We’ll put all of that in the show notes. Tamsen, since it’s the first time you’re on the show, there’s a question we’d like to ask all of our guests, which is, what was the conversation you had with yourself or with someone else that transformed you?
Tamsen Webster
So this has very little to do with work actually.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah? I love it.
Tamsen Webster
But it does have fundamental lessons. And this was actually with my therapist quite a long time ago. So for 17 years, I had what at times was quite a debilitating panic disorder. So it started when I was 17. It went until I was 34. And I have since been able to, I’ve overcome it. So it’s not that I manage it without like, I don’t, I don’t have panic attacks anymore. And where that started, so it was very transformational was that I had a therapist who asked me, I don’t even remember what I said that prompt this, but he said, What makes you think that you always have to live with this? And I said, and I and in that moment, I was like, oh, wait a minute, I don’t? Just even that knowledge that it was possible. Right? Was like opened up something for me that I was just like, well, the way I’m wired, if I know that something is possible, or that I am going to do the work, try everything, research, whatever I need to do, I’m going to do it, I am willing to do it. Because if there is an opportunity to not have to live with this, or manage it or whatever. But actually to get past it. I’m going to do that. But the lesson that that taught me for the rest of my life, right, is that, you know, the way I translated that for my new for my for my Weight Watcher members was that you you don’t have to believe that you can, but you can’t believe you can’t. Say that, again. You don’t have to believe that you can, but you can’t believe you can’t. And so if you take that, you know, in other words, like, if you don’t think that something is possible, full stop. It isn’t. You’re just not, you’re – again getting back to I was saying before. Your belief is limiting your ability to even accept information that would disconfirm that, right? So if you can get to a point where you can believe that something is possible, then that just at least creates enough of a crack in the door for you for someone potentially to pay attention, to listen, to be open to that, that’s what puts them on the field back to our analogy.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Tamsen Webster
And so finally, when we think about taking this back into the workplace, we can just change the pronouns and it’s true. They don’t have to believe they can or that you are able to do this for them, but they can’t believe they can’t, they can’t believe you can’t.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You can’t.
Tamsen Webster
And that is really, really critical. Like if if someone just doesn’t believe something is possible. It’s a much, much difficult, more difficult road that you’ve got in front of you. And sometimes it’s worth it to spend that effort. I want to say that right up front. And sometimes it is not. So I think that, you know, I don’t know any leader who feels like they’ve got enough time, energy, money, whatever it might be. And I think that the more that we can give leaders those tools to really focus on how can I make whatever I talk about more understandable, so that those potential points of alignment are clearer, more quickly. The more time, the more pain, the more energy we can save everybody, and the more quickly and the more effectively we can pursue and ultimately reach our goals. And that for me is like what I would wish for everybody. Is let’s just find the best path to get where everybody wants to go.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. Tamsen, you’re amazing! And if people want to reach out to you, and I hope they do, what’s the best ways for them to connect with you?
Tamsen Webster
Best way is through the website. So Tamsen Webster.com. Contact Form there is the best way. So yeah, reach out, say, hey.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Awesome! We’ll put that all in the show notes. Thank you so much for being on the show, Tamsen, and being amazing and doing the work you do. I’m so grateful for you.
Tamsen Webster
Thanks! It’s delightful to catch back up. And I just, I love your work. I love the work that you’re doing with leaders. And I’m so delighted to see what you put in the world every day.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Thanks.
Our guests this week has been Tamsen Webster. And I always, there’s always something that I learned from her. And I think that that that idea of the bedrock is beliefs is something that’s really juicy for me, but also just that idea of when people don’t believe what you’re saying, if there’s a disconnect between what you’re saying and how you’re showing up, you’re just going to lose them. It’s just such an important reminder for all of us who are in the space of working with humans. And we want to hear from you. What resonated, what became clear for you, what questions are you asking? You can always share your insights with us at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson.com, or find me on social media where my DMs are always open. And if you’d like to support the show, please consider becoming a patron. You can go to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where your support will support the team that makes this show possible. Also, if you haven’t already, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us get exposure and continue to bring on great guests like Tamsen Webster. A big thank you to our team who makes this show possible. To Nick Wilson, our producer, Drew Noll, our sound editor, to Becky Reinert, our transcriptionist, to Jessica Burdg, our marketing consultant and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. Thank you. And just a big final thank you to Tamsen Webster. She’s somebody who I have learned so much from and have just been waiting to get her on the show. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others we can change the world. So my friends, please be sure to rest, rehydrate and we’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.