Episode 081: A Conversation on Leading Well with Erica Reed

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and returning guest Erica Reed, LCSW-C, as they dig deeper into the topic of trauma informed leadership, and Erica shares her LENS framework to help leaders improve their abilities to lead in an emotionally intelligent way.

 

Erica N. Reed, LCSW-C is a Psychotherapist and Workplace Wellness Expert, specializing in helping corporate leaders retain diverse professionals by leading with empathy. Erica is founder and CEO of Leading Well Solutions, which helps managers become inclusive leaders with higher levels of emotional intelligence, improved communication skills, and the ability to optimize the unique strengths of employees.

Leading Well Solutions’ training, coaching, and consulting services are provided through the lens of Trauma Informed Leadership. This perspective considers the unique lived experiences of the workforce and how stress and trauma impact an organization’s culture of belonging and psychological safety.

Taking her clinical and training expertise to the classroom, Erica is an Adjunct Professor at Catholic University of America. Erica’s experience as a college professor provides a unique understanding of adult learning styles and she designs training curriculums where everyone in attendance can easily understand and immediately implement the actionable strategies provided. Erica’s trainings are engaging and informative…no fluff…just lots of great information to get and keep your attention and energize you to develop and grow.

WEBSITE

TWITTER/X/: @EricaNReedlcswc

FACEBOOK: @EricaNReedlcswc

LINKEDIN

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations, where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me, back on the show, is Erica Reed, who we had in our first season, to explore and continue to examine this topic of trauma informed leadership. So let me tell you a little bit about Erica for those of you who are meeting her for the first time. Erica N. Reed LCSWC is a psychotherapist and workplace wellness expert specializing in helping corporate leaders retain diverse professionals by leading with empathy. Erica is the founder and CEO of Leading Well Solutions, which helps managers become inclusive leaders with higher levels of emotional intelligence, improved communication skills, and the ability to optimize the unique strength of employees. Leading Well Solutions training, coaching and consulting services are provided through the lens of trauma informed leadership. This perspective considers the unique lived experiences of the workforce, and how stress and trauma impact an organization’s culture of belonging and psychological safety. Taking her clinical and training expertise to the classroom, Erica is an adjunct professor at Catholic University of America. Erica’s experience as a college professor provides a unique understanding of adult learning styles and she designs training curriculums where everyone in attendance can easily understand and immediately implement the actionable strategies provided. Erica’s trainings are engaging and informative, no fluff, just lots of great information to get and keep your attention and energy to help you develop and grow. Welcome back to the show Erica.

 

Erica Reed  

Thank you. Thank you so much. I was so excited when I knew this was coming up. Because this – I love talking with you. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Likewise. And it’s it’s been a minute. So so what you know, what has changed? Or how are you different? I know, this is a very loaded question. But what are some of the things that have evolved for you, particularly in your work since last time we spoke?

 

Erica Reed  

You know, there’s a lot that’s changed. But unfortunately, a lot has remained the same, in that the work still needs to be done, where workplaces are not the space that employees and leaders need them to be to be able to, you know, be effective, and how they engage, to be productive, and to really not hate every day that they have to show up in that space. So the work is continued, it’s evolved a little bit in that it’s really focusing on both HR professionals and how they are experiencing the workplace because they’re the source of all the problems. People go to them with the problems, people don’t go to them with their warm fuzzies oftentimes. So there’s a lot of secondary trauma and burnout that’s happening with HR professionals. But of course, definitely still focusing on helping people managers lead with empathy, because a lot of HR stuff would be managed more effectively if people managers lead more with empathy. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah.

 

Erica Reed  

So they’re very much connected.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

It’s, well, we can definitely go down that rabbit hole. And maybe that’s a future conversation around the secondary trauma when you’re in HR, because that’s something that I think we don’t talk about enough when you – but that can also happen when you’re a people manager. I feel like there is, there has been this shift of more people who are in positions of power and authority are realizing that the workforce is changing, that people are wanting different things, and not everyone, but I definitely see some people we work with that are honestly questioning if they’re the right leader for the moment. Because of the needs, because of the way people are wanting to be treated at work. And one of the things that I’m curious about, to hear from you, is what do you, what have you seen shift? Whether it’s in what workers are expecting, what leaders are experiencing? What has been some of the evolution you’ve seen over the last couple years, because it does feel like there’s been an acceleration of just needing to treat people better.

 

Erica Reed  

I one hundred percent agree with you. And I think, from from what I have seen, it’s been more in your face. You know, it’s not just everything is just everything we do what we do every day. This is just how we do it. I think employees have become more empowered to be their quote, unquote unfit, authentic self, to show up with their voice on what they need, from their managers, what they need from their organization. And because there’s not a silent thing going on within themselves as there have been previously, it’s kind of made the leadership, the organization hold up a mirror to themselves to say, hey, you know, people are speaking loudly and they’re leaving. Why are they? And what do we need to do differently? Sometimes that works in a way that’s a healthy growth of the culture, a healthy acceleration of how employees are receiving the information they need, the resources they need. And sometimes it’s just ends up being we see it, but it’s a them problem, not an us problem.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You said something really interesting of, I mean essentially, that people aren’t silencing themselves anymore. Can you say more about that?

 

Erica Reed  

You know, it’s just been so much more information that’s more readily available about the impact of trauma, about mental health, and not having the same stigma that we just don’t talk about that anymore. So when people have definitions, when people have awareness, when people see that is not just a me thing, but a collective us thing, then they can they can see themselves, they can I self identify, and they can say, Wow, so that explains what I’ve been going through. Wow, that’s why I’ve been having these challenges. No, is not just me. And now I understand me a little bit better. So if I understand me, I can advocate for me in a totally different way.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I completely agree with that. I was just talking to a mentor last night about this, people just have access to way more information now. They have, you know, whether it’s through Tik Tok, whether it’s through other social media platforms, people are talking about things. I even had a client last year, who was in a fire department who said, you know, what’s tricky is that people can see what other companies are doing now. And so if we aren’t keeping up with it, then, you know, people can be frustrated or maybe not realize that we can’t deliver the same kind of things as a fire department, as say, like, maybe a tech company in California. One of the things, one of the ideas that we’ve been reflecting on fairly recently, and this, I’m gonna, I’m gonna blank out on her name, and I’ll add it into the show notes, but – oh, no, I got it. Dr. Barbara Kellerman wrote, she’s a Harvard professor, and she wrote a book called Professionalizing Leadership. And the book is essentially making the argument that we need to think about people management positions with the same level of rigor that we think about other professionals. For example, as somebody who is a psychotherapist, you could not just say, I’m going to be a psychotherapist without an incredible amount of training, an incredible amount of ongoing certifications, of supervision, all of that. And she posited this argument that we just promote people into accidental managers. And, as I always say, and we give them humans and say, good luck, don’t mess them up too much. (laughter)

 

Erica Reed  

Exactly.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

And I’m curious what comes up for you when you think about the position we put managers in, because sometimes I feel it can be easy to villainize. It can be easy to blame people who are in positions of authority. And to be clear, there’s accountability that needs to happen. Absolutely. So I’m not I’m not saying otherwise. And we don’t set people managers up for success for navigating the complexity of the humans that they need to serve. 

 

Erica Reed  

Yes, yes. So agree. You know, oftentimes managers are put into a position because they know how to count the number of widgets. And they’re good at their widgets. They’re awesome. They are rockstars at their widgets. And when they’re given this great responsibility, and always use a Spider Man analogy, you know, with great power comes great responsibility. There’s just an assumption, they’ll figure it out. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. 

 

Erica Reed  

And one of the things, and you mentioned my role as a psychotherapist, one of the things that I think I bring to this, this world of training and coaching and leadership, trauma informed leadership is I am able to see the view from each side of the desk because of the people that I’ve worked with. I work with the employee, I work with the manager. And the same way that the employee expresses frustration and stress that they’ve started a new job without a training manual, and they were just told to go figure out their job, maybe you’ll shadow somebody for a couple of days, and then you’re on your own. We do need to lend that same compassion and understanding to the manager because they’re given the same type of throw you in a water, figure out how to swim. And that’s why I love what I do. Because I get to see that transformation take place, I get to see that manager that’s, you know, they want to do better. They want to lead with empathy, but they don’t know how, they just know how to count their widget. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. 

 

Erica Reed  

And the part that we really need to understand that I do emphasize with the trauma informed leadership and one of the principles that I really liked to help people see is when we create spaces, when we create opportunities to build resilience, especially in your role as a people manager, that’s a way to resist retraumatization. Because if you are a people manager, and you don’t have a skill set, you can unintentionally retraumatize, trigger, injure, hurt the employee, because you just didn’t know, you didn’t have the skill set, you weren’t shown. It’s not because you’re an evil, bad person. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. 

 

Erica Reed  

It’s just because you weren’t gifted the opportunity to grow in that area. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

And the, there’s a voice that I’m trying to listen to more, or a way of thinking, because you and I are – I mean, you’re preaching to the choir of how do we, how do we take better care of humans? How do we not retraumatize them? And then obviously, we work with people, we’re like, it’s a job, people need to show up. And the thing that, the thing that came up for me is right, and if you’ve helped build the resilience in people, not only will this happen, they will be more present, they will be able to produce more. So if your value is output and innovation and creativity, guess what? When you take care of your people, and you reduce the harm that happens to them, they’re going to bring more and better work to the table. And so that’s – and I wrestled with that of how much do you lean into that? Because it feels so transactional? But the reality is, sometimes that’s the door in to get people. So I’m curious. And I know this might be a big ask, but I’m sure it’s something you’ve thought about. What? What do you wish, if you, in an ideal world, okay, we’re going to want to envision with you. In an ideal world, what knowledge, skills, practices, habits, the whole gamut. What do you wish, like if you could say, Hey, before you become a manager, we’re going to give you a shot. I don’t know why I’m using a medical thing. But we’re going to implant you. It’s like The Matrix, we’re going to implant you with these skill sets. What do you feel like are some of the most important skill sets that you wish somebody had when they stepped into their first management of people roles?

 

Erica Reed  

Wow, yeah, I would love to give a site. (laughter) Here’s a site.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I know! It’d be so easy, we’d make so much money. (laughter) I wish it was that easy. I don’t know why that’s what came up for me, but I was thinking like downloading it, just implementing it, here it is, like you’ve got it. 

 

Erica Reed  

That’s it. I love that. Well, we’ll go with download, you know. (laughs)

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Medical technology, AI, will figure it out. 

 

Erica Reed  

AI will figure it out. Yeah, I love, I love the download, because the download is really what’s needed. Because, you know, when when, if I had my magic wand and make magic happen, I would love for managers, before they start their day one, to have a good understanding of what I like to call the lens framework. And that is a way for a manager to learn about the impact of trauma and mental health on themselves as well as on their employees so that they can understand that what you see may not always be the only answer, the only rationale. That employee that is staring off into space during a meeting isn’t, that may not be because they’re not motivated. It may not be because they are disengaged and thinking about their – you know, search engine, it may be because there’s something else going on. So when we learn about the impact of trauma and stress and mental health, then that will change and shift away the, and the assumptions that we make about people. If we can have a measure of empathy with the emotional intelligence piece, that is huge. It is important for us to practice that, that social awareness, that self awareness. The challenge that I think that I have with the emotional intelligence, as you know, at this point, a lot of people have gone through emotional intelligence training. But why don’t we see the impact? Once again, it’s because they don’t understand the impact of trauma and mental health and how that connects to the emotional intelligence.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

And the work it takes it. 

 

Erica Reed  

Yes. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

You know, when we think about increasing self awareness and emotional regulation, and social awareness, and all of the different components of it, it is a lifelong journey. And I feel like for high achieving people, people who are used to understanding something that’s very tactical, or technical or concrete. One of the, one of the traps that I see people fall into often is they confuse knowing something for doing it. A lot of people know what emotional intelligence is. A lot of people took the training, but they’re not necessarily doing the work. And they think that that’s enough. Anyway, we could go off on a tangent, I want to go back to your lens framework, because I’m really loving it. So the The L stands for, learn the impact of mental health. And I really appreciate not only in others, but yourself, because we know that people are experiencing burnout, we know that there are people in management who are in toxic relationships themselves with the bosses they work for, or maybe even potentially, they have, personally or team members on their staff that are actually causing challenges. E stands for the empathy and the emotional intelligence. What’s the N? 

 

Erica Reed  

The N is right up your language, navigating those conversations. It’s about communication. It’s about understanding, you know how to have those difficult conversations and not shy away from them. You know, too often people when they’re uncomfortable, they stay still, they’ve become self protective. Like, I don’t want to put myself in a difficult situation, I don’t want to be uncomfortable. I don’t want to say the wrong thing. I don’t know what to say. So I’m gonna say nothing. Even, they may think it’s a measure of empathy, where that person is really having a hard time. I know they have a lot going on their life. So I’m not going to give them this feedback. You may be stunting your employees growth if you don’t give them the feedback. So it’s not so much about sheltering or protecting is about engaging in a healthy way, with a trauma informed way. Because when we go back to the the L the learning. We know when a person is stressed when their challenged with their mental health, when they’ve experienced trauma. The brain gets rewired. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. 

 

Erica Reed  

And the way they receive information is different. So that that navigating conversations piece is really about giving people not so much scripts, but a framework for understanding how to share that information in a way that’s going to be received, in a way that’s demonstrating your empathy, in a way that is, you know, creating a collaborative environment. No one likes to be, you know, do this because I said so. Nobody likes that. And a large part of a person who’s experienced trauma is that loss of control. And so if you come into the space, do this, because I said so. You kind of create an environment that’s toxic. And it’s triggering. So definitely that conversation, that communication piece is uber important.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I don’t, I don’t, that didn’t come up in our first conversation. And that feels profound to me. That – I’m having a bit of a moment cuz I’m thinking even just about my own experiences with trauma or secondary trauma, and that loss of control is so spot on. And a – I’ll say this, a trap or a pattern we know that we can fall into when we’re in those positional powers of authority is command and control. Because it’s easier, it is easier to be transactional, it is easier for us to just tell somebody what to do. When that might not be what’s most effective. I’ve never thought about it through the lens of depending on the person you’re working with, they may have a lifetime of not feeling in control and so you doing this could only accelerate, potentially retraumatizing or just at the very minimum, not setting it up for an effective, an effective relationship. That yeah, that’s. Can you say more about that? Just that idea of loss of control? I mean, just I’m just really curious now.

 

Erica Reed  

I mean, if if you think about what trauma is, and I know a lot of people don’t really think about trama, what it is. I guess just to give a overarching understanding of it. Trauma is when an event happens that overwhelms us in a way that we don’t feel safe. We don’t feel in control, and it disallows us to utilize the way we typically cope. We face stress each and every day, we have these ways to cope. But there’s stress, and then there’s Stress, there’s toxic stress, there’s chronic stress, and then there’s trauma. So those coping mechanisms that we would typically use to manage through, they don’t work for us in the same way. So the trauma is impacting us in a very different way. But the foundation of that is, something is happening to me that I don’t have control over, something is happening to me that I don’t feel safe in. And if there are incidents, if there are events, if there are experiences, if there are people that reminds me of that feeling of not having control, then what Person A sees as that change, I am, as Person B feeling not in control, I’m going to experience in a totally different way. And I think people don’t, leaders specifically don’t understand why change management is so troubling, is because you’re changing, which then by definition of the word change, you’re losing control, what your your stability is. And if you don’t manage change in effective way, with that understanding of how to navigate your folks, and in a healthy way, you have triggered all sorts of control issues, and then that shows up perhaps as resistance. And people managers without the skill set will push back against that resistance. And that’s not healthy. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, they minimize, they dismis, they discredit, they judge. And that’s, that’s – something I’ve been lovingly holding a mirror up to is when I hear leaders using highly critical language to talk about their team members. And, and part of it is, I understand that they’re frustrated, you know, they’re struggling, because they don’t know how to move forward. Again, we all want things to be easy. (laughs Even if that’s not an option or the reality. And, you know, but to just hold up to hold up that mirror, because if you’re thinking that, even if you would never say that out loud, that language, it’s changing how you’re viewing those people and that, you know, that loss of control you talk about, that’s something that we speak to a lot of people don’t fear change. We change all the time, we fear loss. And it’s that, whether that’s loss of control, loss of stability, loss of familiarity. What? Well, there’s a couple couple of things that are coming up for me. One is it before, before we hopped on we were chatting a bit and talking about the layers and the complexity. And I understand why what we’re asking managers can feel very overwhelming. I understand why sometimes people go, but I’m not a therapist, I know you’re not a therapist, but you are, not only are you working with this human, for probably, you are with this person for more time than anyone else is with this person. There’s a lot of research just recently that’s coming out about how your boss has as much, sometimes more, influence over your your mental and emotional well being than your own spouse.

 

Erica Reed  

For sure. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

You know, the fact that you’re – I mean, this is no surprise, but they’re just finally putting really explicit numbers to it that if you’re in a toxic environment, it literally can shave off, like three to five years off your life. I mean, these, it’s significant consequences, whether we care about them or want to pay attention to them, they are there. So I guess, let’s talk about the layers. How do we help? How do we help leaders, managers who feel overwhelmed by the complexity, step into that a bit more? And maybe that’s not even the right language. That’s what’s coming up for me, you know, like, what’s the, what’s the invitation for those leaders? Because, and forgive me for organizing my thoughts a bit because my brain is moving really quickly right now. There are absolutely people who get it and who are trying to show up differently. And they’re trying to do the work. And again, it’s lifelong, right? Like we were always going to be no, no human – every time you work with somebody new it’s going to be a new book you have to read. (laughs)

 

Erica Reed  

Right.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

It’s a new thing you have to learn, new operating manual, right? So it is this ongoing learning and not only that you could work for with somebody for 20 years, and they’re not the same person as when you started working together. And then there’s, you know, people in the middle, but then you have the people who, again, I go to this crowd that says, (exhales) Why should I have to think about this stuff? Like, what’s our, what’s our entry point to help them think about the layers of the human experience, the layers of trauma, when there may be resistance to like, but I’m not a therapist? And you and I’ve talked about this I know in the first session, but I’m just, our conversation, but I’m, I’m just curious what comes up for you?

 

Erica Reed  

I love that you said session instead of conversation. (laughs)

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I know, I feel like I’m in a session with you. (laughter)

 

Erica Reed  

You know, and unfortunately, there are a lot of those folks out there, they say, Well, why do I have to do and I’m not a therapist. And to your point, we’re not asking people to be therapists. Please don’t, because you can actually hurt somebody. We don’t want that. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I think our first conversation you’re like good, yeah, no, we do not want that. (laughter)

 

Erica Reed  

No, no, don’t want that. But the thing to keep in mind is, you don’t have to be a therapist to care about people. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. 

 

Erica Reed  

So and I guess we can have an argument that there are some people that just don’t care. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, yeah, and there are. 

 

Erica Reed  

That’s true. But let’s just let’s just go with the assumption that you as a people person, you as a people manager, you actually do have a measure of care about people. You’re busy, you have a lot on your plate, you have a lot of responsibility with that position that you’re in, and that employee that that employee over there, she’s not the only one that you have to lead. But I’m going to tap into the fact that you actually do have a spirit of care in you. So don’t look at it as I need to therapize her, look at her as a person that maybe I just need to take a moment, just one minute, I know you’re busy. Just one minute. That’s all I’m asking. If you frame it that way, let me just take a minute and check in with Erica. In the last meeting, I saw her video all of a sudden go off. I don’t know what was going on. But it’s gonna be assuming that she’s now all of a sudden doing something else instead of focusing on a meeting. Let me after the meeting, check in with her say, hey, Erica, how you doing? Is everything going okay? Is there anything I can support you with? That’s not you diving into her business. That’s not you asking mental health assessment questions. It’s you noticing a shift, letting her know that you notice and offering her the opportunity to ask for support and guidance. That’s just a person who cares. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah.

 

Erica Reed  

You would have done that with a person, you know, and that you’re a good friend with. You can do that with your employee as well. You don’t have to therapize them just to care. And asking questions. I love curiosity. Curiosity is really the, for me the foundation of empathy. Because if you lean in with curiosity, if you lean in from a position of not knowing, it helps you step outside of the bias, because our feet stay in a position of bias. We all have them. If you don’t think you have a bias then we need to chat because you’re lying to yourself. We are full of biases. It’s okay, it’s human. But we can’t practice empathy if we’re grounded in our bias. So that curiosity allows us to shift our position away from my bias, and more towards empathy. And if I can get folks just to start with care, compassion, empathy. I think that’s a good starting point for those that just don’t get it. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I want to echo that point of, it’s a moment. That is something that I’ve learned in my journey. That is something that I’ve, whether it’s my journey personally, or the work that we do, and one of the things we always tell people is micro moments, macro impact. This isn’t about sitting with somebody for two hours, although maybe sometimes it is. It happens, right? Life happens. But it’s just that that – it’s just a moment. And I go back to how you described, when people become uncomfortable, they stay still. And I’m thinking of a number of recent conversations I was witness to personally and professionally, where another person shared something vulnerable. And the reaction from others, essentially, because they were uncomfortable with it, not that they didn’t care. Not that they didn’t love this person, not that they didn’t maybe support this person. I have quite a few scenarios actually that are coming through my head again, both personally and with client work. But then they just say nothing and what that does is it – and it’s just as simple as acknowledging and checking in, right? It’s just this micro moment. And it’s this idea of how do we show up for people in this moment? I think that there are times when, to your point of what you said earlier, people are like, I don’t know what to say. So I’m just going to say nothing. You know, one of the things that I often tell people just even telling somebody, thank you for sharing that with me. Just that moment of being seen and heard, or even if it’s a situation where you go, Wow, I’m not even sure how to respond to that. But like, I’m here, and how can I support you? Or would this be helpful, or whatever the case might be?

 

Erica Reed  

And even, you know, to your point, that’s a part of navigating those difficult conversations is people, amazing people, a lot of amazing people are in their possession, because their ability to be a fixer. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. 

 

Erica Reed  

And that’s a huge pressure and weight that people take ownership for. I hear a problem, I see a problem, I must fix it. And when people come to you in a vulnerable state, and they share something, as you mentioned, their default is okay, let me fix it. And this is, personally and professionally, we, you know, we’re looking at both lenses here. Sometimes people just need space.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. 

 

Erica Reed  

And in giving yourself permission to put down that fixer head and just put on the space, the head of gifting space, a safe space, that may be the most powerful thing you can do and just reflect back to them, I can hear that what you’ve shared has been very difficult for you. I can see that, you know, I can see this as upsetting for you. Just reflecting that is, is a wonderful way just to create that space as well.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I really am appreciating how you described that. Let me be more clear, I’m really appreciating how you described that desire to take ownership and thus, ultimately taking on the burden of fixing somebody. It’s interesting to think about it through the lens of a bit of a burden, because it can be that way of, Shoot, how do I make this better? Because that’s my job. Because, again, when we’re talking about managers, the thing that I often tell people is you have been rewarded for solving problems. You are in the position you are, probably largely because of the technical problems you have been able to solve. We also know that the brain feels really good when it solves problems. (laughs) We get that little hit when it’s, I told you so. Like, I was right. But it’s interesting to reframe it, as that’s not a burden you need to carry when someone’s struggling, you can witness, you can see, you can sit with, you can acknowledge, you can offer support, all of those things. And again, most of the times that’s actually what people want and need. It’s interesting the timing of our conversation, and I’m not sure exactly when this episode will air. But the timing of this conversation is really important. Well, there’s always going to be something happening in the world. The world is a messy, messy place right now. But I want to take a moment, I want to explore a little bit of this idea of again, I don’t know if it’s secondary trauma. So let me finish my thought. Listeners, thank you. So at the, at the moment of recording this. I’m from Iowa. Yesterday, we experienced an unfortunate and very unfortunately common experience in America, which was a school shooting that left a young sixth grader killed, the 17-year-old who had been bullied relentlessly, the shooter, self inflicted. Multiple people shot. While it wasn’t my school, you couldn’t help but be impacted by it. Right? We were literally recording at our studio hearing the lifeflight helicopters going, and the ambulance and you knew, even though it was a town half an hour away. But when we talk about you know, an event, an event can not always be like an explicit this happened directly to me and I’m thinking about my colleague, Dr. Teresa Peterson, who has three young children who are of that age. She spent decades in the education system, so like just her own experience as an educator, going through those drills, her own experience of probably knowing many of the educators, it was a very different experience for her to read that news than it was for me. And, and you know, and then we can talk about other scenarios, we were talking about the resignation of Dr. Claudine Gay from Harvard, the Harvard president, and how some people can read that news and feel one way, or you know, like, as a white person, I might read it and have a reaction. But seeing the reaction from my fellow black women friends, the reaction was very different. It was, it was much more personal, it was – So all of this is to say – Can we talk? I want to talk a little bit about that secondary trauma, because I feel like people that I am around, understand that it’s important to show up for people when something really dramatically impacts them, even if they don’t have the skills like they understand that. But what does it look like to show up for somebody? Let’s talk about that secondary trauma, and what it looks like to show up for them, in those moments that that was a very loaded and lengthy getting to this point.

 

Erica Reed  

You know, I totally get it because there’s so much going on. And, you know, the illustrations you gave, obviously, it did not happen to person sitting in their cubicle at that moment. But you know, it’s impacting them, they have a personal connection, even though there’s no personal connection. And I think that’s one of the most challenging things for, you know, I don’t want to keep picking on people managers here or even HR professionals. But that is one of the most challenging things for the workplace to show up for is when something happens to you, but not to you.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

God, so well said.

 

Erica Reed  

You know, I can, I can show up and understand if your loved one passed away, and you know, that I can get that. But you, on your way into work, you were listening to the newscast and you heard about this school shooting, and you show up in the office and you’re upset and you’re crying. And you know, you’re not, you’re not tuned into the meetings, and you know, you want to leave early. I don’t get that.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah!

 

Erica Reed  

I don’t get that. If I can just make it as simple as possible. Pain is pain. I have experienced pain in my life. And when I see someone else in pain, it’s gonna, for some reason, you know, we’re wired this way. I didn’t make it up, we’re just, we’re just wired to connect to other humans. And unfortunately, my pain is going to connect to what I, what I’m making is an assumption to a certain extent, that someone else is experiencing, to their pain. And when I see them in pain, it opens up my pain. I can see myself in that situation, or I can see myself in my situation, but the pain is open. So I am experiencing this event, you know, where even if I’m going back to the trauma definition, or the three E’s – Event, Experience, and Effect, I’m experiencing this event, based upon my previous events in life. Based upon the effects it had on me, short term and long term. So that’s actually part of understanding what it means to be a trauma informed leader, is leaning in, away from that bias of, well, why are you upset, that didn’t happen to you? And showing up with that observation, you know, “Hey, Erica, looks like you… are you okay? You look a bit upset right now. Is there something that you would like to talk about for a moment, we could just step out of the hallway into my office.” Just showing up, you don’t have to understand why they’re upset. You don’t have to agree. You don’t have to relate, you can just show up. And I love that, you know, you acknowledge that people are going to experience things differently even based upon how a black woman may experience something, based upon a white woman. You know, things are not equitable, as much as we’d like to think that they are, the way trauma impacts people is not equitable. The way that you know, relationships impact people is just not the same. We, we need to have an understanding once again that my unique lived experiences come with me wherever I go. And that’s going to be the lens through which I view stuff through. So if I feel that someone is experiencing something that’s reflective of what I have, where I felt judged, or I felt that I had to conform, or I felt like I had to put on a show just to be accepted, where I felt like I had to minimize myself to make other people feel comfortable. If those have been my lived experiences, and I see someone else showing up in a way that pulls upon that for me, I’m gonna see that situation in a very different light than someone else who may not have had that lived experience. Because it’s just not equitable. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

There’s so much, there’s so much, there’s so much in that last three minutes. Pain is pain. You can show up and not agree. Right? I mean, and again, that’s, it just goes back to that it’s just a minute. It’s not, it’s just a minute of acknowledgement. And, and honestly, for most people, that’s all they need. Are, are there are there scenarios where someone is dealing with such intense mental health issues or trauma that they might actually need more professional support? Absolutely. Right, are there times when that’s the case? Absolutely. The vast majority of moments, again, like I feel like just need the moment of showing up. And, and I and I think that’s an interesting invitation, or challenge, or however you want to put it that you’re giving us, to say I might not have experienced it, I might not even agree with it, but I can see that you are in pain, and instead of dismissing, judging or criticizing, I’m just gonna acknowledge it. And you know, and be with it. One of the things that is exhausting to me, I’ll just say it like that, is when I hear phrases like just don’t take it personally, or leave emotions at the door. Or, like, that’s awesome that you can compartmentalize your emotions, I am a deeply feeling person, (laughs) I’m a deeply empathetic. I am deeply, I was I come from a very sensitive, sensitive family. (chuckles) Right. And, and that always, always bothered me and like, I don’t actually want to be numb like you. I want to be present with life, which means I want to be present with the good stuff. And that means I’m present with the tough stuff. And I don’t even know what my opinion like opinion or where I’m going with this is. (lauhgs) But – I don’t know, I’m just I’m just sitting there and thinking how, how much more effective we could be for each other, with each other instead of dismissing, instead of discrediting, instead of denying, judging. You just saw it for what it was, whether you agreed with it or not, whether you share the experience or not. And you just showed up for someone. Like it, it seems so simple, but I know it’s not necessarily that simple in practice.

 

Erica Reed  

And that’s the challenging piece where we, we can’t gift someone with just a moment, just 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah.

 

Erica Reed  

You know, one of the things that we hear so often from employees is, is as to why they are not satisfied at work, it’s not the work, everybody just gets the fact that they got to work hard. We get that. It’s how they feel in that space. That they don’t feel seen, that they don’t feel heard, that they don’t feel valued, that they don’t feel developed. These are all people manager things, right? And if you just give somebody a moment to say, Hey, I see you, I noticed you. What’s going on, how can I support? Seen, heard, value, right, develop. Just one moment. And I think a lot of it stems from lack of self leadership, which is actually that final piece of the framework.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Oh right, we have an S in the lens.

 

Erica Reed  

We have an S, we gotta look through the lens.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Love it!

 

Erica Reed  

And we cannot ignore the impact of self and self leadership. And, you know, once again, it connects to that emotional intelligence piece because self awareness is that foundation, is that building block. If there’s no self awareness, if you, if you don’t have an understanding of how your unique lived experience is showing up, as we mentioned before, about the cognitive distortions, you know, that’s some fancy phrase for just saying, you got stinkin’ thinkin’. You know, how you view the world. Is it through that lens of, you know, taking ownership for everything and everything’s my fault. Am I catastrophizing, where I see all the worst case possible scenarios and I’ve created this narrative for myself before it even happens. If it’s perfectionism, where I have such a need for things to be just right, I create stress and anxiety for myself. I procrastinate because I’m worried that it’s not gonna turn out right. So I put it off and put it off until I’m stressed? I’m maybe talking to somebody or maybe talking to myself, I don’t know. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

(laughs)

 

Erica Reed  

But when leaders practice that self leadership, when they see how their own trauma response is, that whole fight, flight response piece shows up. When they recognize that they’re experiencing that secondary trauma, because they have their own stuff. So they may be that open leader who has that relationship with their employees, that the employees actually come and say, hey, my kid just experienced this, and they’re being bullied and you as a leader, you’re amazing. You have empathy, but as a result of that, and you’re not practicing self care strategies you need to do, now you’re taking on other people’s stuff. And you’re carrying around with you, in addition to your own stuff. So that self leadership is protection as well. Especially if you have that gift of empathy.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. Erica, we have, we can just continue to explore this topic. And I have so many ideas of book chapters and articles and ideas, (laughs) just in like us talking. Well, you know, no question. We’ll have you back on the show. We’ve had you twice. We’ll have you a third time for sure. 

 

Erica Reed  

I love it! I would love it!

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Just so we can continue to deepen this conversation. I just, you know, I thank you for the work that you do. And the way that you explain things that can feel really overwhelming in very digestible and practical ways. I love this LENS language of thinking about these practices. So thank you. I always learned something from you. The whole “stay still” is like, Oh, I’ve never thought like I’ve thought of it like that, but I’ve never named it like that. I’m like, that’s a, okay, there’s an there’s an Erica Reed quote, that’s gonna be going up in a presentation. (laughter) So I’m gonna need a headshot.

 

How can people who are interested in learning more, either for themselves as a leader or bringing you into an organization, what is the best way for them to connect with you?

 

Erica Reed  

Yes, I would love to connect and chat and share. And the best way to reach me is through my website actually is going to leadingwellsolutions.com and there you’ll be able to see some of the ways that we can work together whether it’s training people managers within your organization, one on one individual leadership development coaching, or even if as a self reflective activity, you want to do the On-Demand course, which walks you through how to lead with empathy. And I’m really excited because it’s got the SHRM approval because it’s a recertification provider. So HR pros can get their credits in there too. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

No, that’s awesome.

 

Erica Reed  

And of course, LinkedIn is the place to be so you can reach me there under Erica N. Reed LCSWC is my personal page. And then the business page is Leading Well Solution.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Awesome. Well, I’m excited to check out the new rebrand too, so I have to have to go look at your site and see all of your goodies. Erica, thank you so much for showing up and enjoy helping others learn how to show up, too.

 

Erica Reed  

Thank you so much for this amazing, insightful conversation. It’s always a joy, just to be in your presence.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Thanks. 

 

Our guest this week has been my dear friend and colleague, Erica Reed. And there’s a number of things we talked about that resonated with me personally and professionally. That whole point of pain is pain, there’s something about that that is such a good reminder. I don’t need to evaluate or judge someone’s pain. It’s just, it’s there. So how can I be present with it? That’s a real gift. And we always want to hear from you, our friends near and far. What resonates for you? What came up for you? What questions do you have? And we do love to hear from you. So my DMs are always open. LinkedIn is the best place to connect with me. Otherwise, you can send us an email at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson.com. And if you’d like to support the show, first, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. The more reviews we get, the more comments we get, the more exposure we get and we can continue to have great conversations like the one we had today. Also, if you would like to support the crew that makes this show possible, you can do that by becoming a patron. You can go to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where your financial support 100% goes to support the team that makes this show possible. And you get some pretty great, unique swag as well. 

 

I want to take a moment to thank our incredible team that makes this show possible. To our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo crew. While I’m the one on the microphone, I am not the one that makes this happen. We have an incredible team. And I want to just give a final thank you to Erica Reed, and all of the work that she does, it is so necessary, it’s important. And not only will it make you a better leader, her work just makes you a better person and who doesn’t want that. And finally, I want to thank you all, we are so fortunate to have so many friends in so many countries. And I just want you to know that every time we see a new listener in a new country, we get excited. And I feel like we have friends all over. So please know how much we appreciate your support, you listening, don’t hesitate to reach out and thank you for your support of the show. This, my friends, has been another episode of Conversations on Conversations. Thank you again, so much for listening, for showing up for you, for showing up for others. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So please be sure to rest, rehydrate, recover, resource yourself. And we’ll see you again next week.