Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Karen Eber as they revisit the topic of storytelling, exploring it through the lens of Karen’s latest book, The Perfect Story: How to Tell Stories That Inform, Influence, and Inspire.
Karen Eber is an author, leadership consultant, and keynote speaker. Her TED Talk on how your brain responds to stories continues to inspire millions. Her book, The Perfect Story: How to Tell Stories That Inform, Influence, and Inspire, was selected as a Next Big Ideas Club must-read and published with HarperCollins this October. As the CEO and Chief Storyteller of Eber Leadership Group, Karen helps Fortune 500 companies like GE, Microsoft, and Kate Spade build leaders, teams, and culture, one story at a time. She guest lectures at universities including MIT, London Business School, and Stanford. She is a former Head of Culture, Learning, and Leadership Development at GE and Deloitte and frequently contributes to and is featured in Fast Company, MSN, Quartz, Entrepreneur, NY Post, Forbes, NPR, and Business Insider.
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me back to the show is my awkward duet partner, my colleague and my friend an inspiration, Karen Eber. Karen Eber is an author, leadership consultant and keynote speaker. Her TED talk on How your brain responds to stories continues to inspire millions, well over 2 million views. So check it out. Her book, The Perfect Story: How to Tell Stories that Inform, Influence, and Inspire, was selected as the Next Big Ideas Club Must Read, and published with HarperCollins last October. As the CEO and chief storyteller of Eber Leadership Group, Karen helps Fortune 500 Companies like GE, Microsoft and Kate Spade, build leaders, teams and cultures one story at a time. She guest lectures at universities including MIT, London Business School and Stanford. She is a former head of Culture, Learning and Leadership Development at GE and Deloitte and frequently contributes to and is featured in Fast Company, MSN, Quartz, Entrepreneur, New York Post, Forbes, NPR and Business Insider. Karen, welcome to the show.
Karen Eber
Thank you, Sarah. I’m so happy to be here. It has been a long time coming.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yes. What people don’t realize is that there was – and there was a lot of reasons for rescheduling. I was sick, I couldn’t do it. Anyway, we’re here. And we get to talk about your book. And we’re going to highlight your book in the month of April, I think, is going to be our focus of – you don’t know this yet, Karen, we’re going to be reaching out to you. (laughs)
Karen Eber
All right, let’s go.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And highlighting your work in or newsletter, (laughs) I realize, I was like I think Jessica hasn’t connected with you yet. This is off, this conversation is off to a great start, folks. Okay, Karen, for those of you who may remember, she was on the show during our first season. And you know, we, at the time, you were still writing your book, The Perfect Story. So, since last time we met what would be important for us to know about your world.
Karen Eber
This is when as a storyteller, my mind goes blank, and I’m like, I don’t know. Nothing. First, always, always a treat and honor to be in conversation with you. The last time we met I was in the throes of writing and writing is so fun to me, I love that. The marketing part is the part where you like learn so much about yourself. And you get together with all of these people and have these amazing experiences. So I’ve been on a roller coaster, up and down. And here we are, slightly nauseous by definitely forward.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) It is clear that you enjoy writing in your book. That you can, there is a level of intentionality in – and there always is, right? Authors are always being really intentional. But that was something that was very clear to me reading your book of how thoughtful you were on these are the examples that I think are going to best support these ideas, which no surprise is your whole thesis on how stories can support it. Okay, before we get into the content of the book, I’m just curious, you know, what, what has surprised you? Or what is something that has surprised you on this journey of authorship, from writing the book to where you are now, that was just something new and unexpected?
Karen Eber
There were a couple of things, the writing was enjoyable. That wasn’t hard. I didn’t really you know, you often hear writers say, my house has never been cleaner. And I can’t tell you more about what’s happening on social media. I just fell into a discipline, I think part of it is I was not able to take off of work and write the book, I had to keep running my business and travel and do keynotes. And so I just somehow set a schedule and stuck to it. And there were a couple times where it was harder to grapple with it. But then I would go for a walk and it would be clear. So that part I loved. The – what surprised me that I wasn’t prepared for is how cranky editing may be.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Karen Eber
And not because I didn’t think my work should improve. I did but I’m not you know, you often hear people say like have a writing habit, right? An hour every day. That didn’t work for me, I do better work where I can block like four or five, six hours at a time, work deeply and then go forward. So I would have like a full day blocked for editing. And that was the worst thing that I could do. Because when you’re editing, you’re not creating, you’re looking for problems and mistakes and tightening and how can this be different? And you have a very different eye on your work and so then I would get into the, this is awful. Is there anything good here? What are we doing and I finally had to learn, like, no, you edit for 90 minutes, and then you go take a break. You do not do that, because I was never more cranky than when I was editing. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
I actually loved the editing process.
Karen Eber
Did you?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Probably more than the creation. And I understand what you’re saying. So for those of you who are listening, who are thinking about writing a book someday, one of the best pieces of advice I got from my publisher was you will hate your manuscript at some point, you will think it’s terrible (laughs) at some point. And then you will just refine it, and then you will find it. And that was absolutely true as well. It doesn’t surprise me to hear that you love the creation of it.
Karen Eber
And I do enjoy editing, because I feel like the work comes out in editing, it wasn’t that I didn’t think it couldn’t improve, I just recognize that, while I could write for six, seven hours at a time, I couldn’t edit for six, seven hours at a time. So that was different. You know, there’s other amazing things on the journey of when you’re reaching out for blurbs, you you kind of put this request out there and it hangs and you never quite know what you’re gonna get, or if you’re gonna get it, or when you’re gonna get it. And I like to joke that Amy Edmondson made me cry, (chuckles)
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s right. I remember that.
Karen Eber
Because I sent it off and I didn’t know if I would hear from her. And like, four days later, she was already in my inbox, sending me really lovely notes. And she wasn’t even done reading it. So there’s, there’s these moments where people are just so kind to you, and you realize, oh, gosh, am I as kind to other people, when they’re going through things? And then, like we touched on, when your book is in the world, you get random messages from strangers, that you can’t even trace how you know them or how they follow you. You’re not even a second degree on LinkedIn or a third and they’re writing some message about how they found your book and how it helped you. I got one yesterday from someone in Thailand. Don’t know him but really lovely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it.
Karen Eber
So that’s a really cool thing.
Sarah Noll Wilson
The other thing is just, you know, for people who read books, send messages to your author, favorite authors, because they appreciate it. And just to answer your question of, “Am I as kind?” You were a huge support for me, during my process of just checking in, emotional support, hey, you’re gonna have dopamine spikes, and then you’re gonna crash. And I’ve passed that along to other friends, as they’ve written books and published is like, you’re going to be inundated. What’s your, what’s your like? What’s your resourcing plan? What’s your, what’s your plan to take care of yourself? During during this process?
Karen Eber
I do remember sending you –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Karen Eber
A recording of The Sun Will Come Out Tomorrow on my piccolo. Do you remember that?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. That’s right. I love when I get my piccolo responses. (laughter) So we’re gonna dig into your book, The Perfect Story, and I forget the subtitle. Yeah, How to Tell Stories That Inform, Influence and Inspire. Now, I, I suspect that you run into this a lot. Um, I’m not a speaker. So I don’t need to learn how to tell a good story. What would you, like what would you say? Who, who? Who is your book for?
Karen Eber
Yeah, by the way, replace speaker with anything.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I’m a leader. So I don’t need to. I’m a mother, I don’t need to.
Karen Eber
I’m an engineer, I’m in pharmaceuticals, I’m an attorney. Yeah. When you are writing a book proposal, you have to be very clear on who your audience is. (chuckles) Because obviously, that’s the business case for who’s gonna buy your book. And so the lead is people in business, because stories are a unit of understanding, and they’re how we connect and how we communicate, however, big fat asterix. What I learned through my TED talk is, stories aren’t about presentations at work, and they’re not about sales conversations. And they’re not about marketing. They are truly about connection. And so many people outside of the business world responded to that. And so the intent is that whether you are giving a eulogy, or you are guesting on a podcast or hosting a podcast, or you are getting ready for a presentation, or you’re an entrepreneur, the steps in this take you through how do you find ideas and tell stories for the perfect setting?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Karen Eber
I don’t believe that there’s like the four stories you have to tell. I don’t believe in that. Because if you follow that, you’re going to hit an instance where those four stories won’t apply. And so the goal is to give you the tools to put that together for whatever situation you have.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You, one of the things, one of the first things that I highlighted, and I don’t think that, I don’t think I had heard you talk about this is stories are the original scalable technology allowing you to deeply touch endless numbers of people at once. There was something really beautiful about that, because I was telling you before we got on the show, I had a lot of emotions reading your book. Because I know for me personally, I mean, I can be a hell of a storyteller. But when it comes to intentional, like editing, that is, it’s just, it’s uncomfortable for me it. Sometimes I feel – I’ve experienced other people where it feels inauthentic. And you know, or you have this belief that you know, you’re a great storyteller, because you’re just gifted. And when you write any of these stories, that’s just how it comes out and not realizing that there is a discipline and a process to refining it. And and there was something there was something just provocative about that idea of, it’s a scalable, it’s a scalable technology, and there is something – anyway, I just, I’m curious to get your thoughts on, you know, where did that idea come from? Or just even what comes up for you, as I share that quote, your quote?
Karen Eber
If you think about the business world, because so much of my work is there. I’m working with leaders who are trying to think, how am I connecting with people that may not be physically around me or even in the same country? Or how do I leave an impression, when I’m not even with them. That they’re, they’re off on their own. And that’s where this idea came from, you know, a great story is the one that’s repeated over and over. And it’s the things that people talk about, and that they know, and you get that right, and that’s when we remember, that’s why it stays with us. But to debunk the, you know, I can’t do this, I intentionally tell a story very early on about a very awkward business dinner that I was at, and I self attested –
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) I love that story.
Karen Eber
And socially awkward introvert, which I think people find funny because they see me speak or they see me one on one. And they’re like, No, you’re not. I’m like, oh, sure I am. The worst moments for me are when I book a keynote, and they’re like, can you join us for dinner? And I’m like, yeah, we’d love to make, oh, great, you’re gonna have all these stories for us. And I’m like, oh, please keep your expectations low. I am not the center of attention at your table, but one on one, we’ll have amazing conversation. So what I’ve learned is, I am an introvert that doesn’t do well with small talk. And the reason is that I want meaningful conversation and connection and a lot of small talk can feel not meaningful, it just feels like it’s filler. And so it’s very hard to do, and my mind will go completely blank. So I’m at my first business dinner in my professional career, I did not want to be there. The purpose of the dinner was for my company and another company to explore collaborating, and I volunteered to go to this dinner, because I thought if I go to this dinner, I won’t have to go again for a few more years. (laughter) So I’m gonna go and get this over with so I don’t have to do it again. This was my literal thought process.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Karen Eber
So you take that socially awkward introvert paired with the other company. I was just prepared to have them come and do this sales pitch. And so first business dinner, I have no frame of reference, I’m thinking they’re just going to come in, like, you know, the salesperson that’s like radiating, the urge to sell, like the way you know, Drakar radiates off of people. (laughter) I’m like, okay, this is gonna be miserable. And we’re at this table. And sure enough, it is so awkward. All the other tables are having lively conversation, and we’re looking over at them, (laughs) like, can’t I be at that table? Anytime anyone tried to get any type of conversation going, it just would fall apart, like a helium balloon that’s sticking to the floor on his last day. And in my head. I’m like, yep, this sucks. I knew it. Thank goodness, I won’t have to do this again, for a few more years. One of the people the table clears his throat, his name was Aaron. And he said, I’m building a deck on the back of my house. There’s a literal exhale at the table. And we all lean forward because thankfully, someone is starting a conversation. Not at all what I thought would happen at a business dinner. But tell us about this deck Aaron, and he’s talking about how he had to relocate a woodpile, because he was framing and the the pile was in the way. He would put it in a wheelbarrow and take it to the edge of the yard. And on the third pass, he takes a log off the stack and is face to face with a raccoon.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(chuckles)
Karen Eber
He’s frozen. The raccoon is frozen. They both have their hands up like they’re under arrest. You know, the raccoon has this mask around its face so it’s only even more ironic, and they’re gonna draw and he doesn’t know what to do. And at this point our tables laughing, like can you even what would you do? After about a minute he starts to back away and the raccoon runs off. But that was the shift that we needed because then people start asking him all on these questions, someone else at the table started sharing a story about an unwanted houseguest. And now we’re at the table that all the other tables are looking at. And I thought, I wonder if this is his go to move. Like is this Aaron’s go to story for our sales conversation. But I realized it didn’t matter. Because what happened is, I felt like he was approachable. I felt like he was a friend. And every time he called me, I took his call. Now I went into that dinner not wanting to be there, not wanting the sleazy sales pitch. And that story showed me like, oh, you can actually create connection in like the most inauthentic of situations, and I was not the one telling the story. (laughs) I was the one probably contributing nothing verbally to that. So.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s, you know, I, I loved reading about that story. And that that theme of connection that you echo throughout, was something that resonated with me, because when I think about times where I tuned out, because somebody was telling a story, right? Like at a situ, you know, like a situation like a dinner, it can be a, Oh, good. And then sometimes you get the person who’s, I’m going to do my 10 minute comedian set. And I’m just going to keep telling stories, and not have it be a moment of connection and exploration and authentic sharing. Or there are other times when it feels inauthentic. You’re like, I don’t I mean, you’re telling the story, but I don’t – and the thing that became clear in reading your book is when I thought about the times when I experienced somebody and it felt authentic, is it because it it did feel like it was intentional about building a relationship or connecting, or I want to help you understand or see something differently. Versus look at me and look at how funny I am. Or look at me and look at how smart I am. And honestly, for me, I think that’s sometimes why I struggle with my own storytelling is because I forget, or I’m not as intentional about how do I make sure that this is really going to serve the people I’m sharing?
Karen Eber
Well, first, I’ve experienced your stories. I’ve been in the back of the room, and I’ve heard your stories. And I think everyone listening would agree with me, no one would ever give you the label of inauthentic. I think that we all, myself included, have something we feel a connection to, and we see it and we feel it and we want to impart that on the audience. And that’s why we’re sharing the story. And sometimes we do that, and it works.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Karen Eber
And you’re like, yes. And sometimes we do it and it just doesn’t work the way we wanted. We don’t make enough of a connection for the audience. Or maybe we’re telling it before they’re really ready.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Karen Eber
And these are things that we can tweak. These are things that can be done to make sure how am I thinking about who this is? And who I’m telling this to? And how I can really take this thing that has meaning to me, and have it make meaning to them? And I think about the times where I’ve gotten it wrong, it’s because I got the audience wrong. I did the planning, but my understanding of the audience was wrong and what I did didn’t work.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s such a good, that’s such a good point of knowing where they’re at, and they might not be ready for for that story. Or it might not be the right time or, or whatever the case might be from a standpoint of yeah, just that that timing is interesting. The – I appreciate that, that feedback on being authentic. And there’s also an opportunity to refine. I (laughs) I don’t remember if this came up at our last interview, so if it did forgive me audience. (laughs) I joke and some of this is my ADHD that I’m, you know how like Jackson Five is like, they were always the like, first take Jackson, you know, it was like they could do it on one take. I laugh that I think of myself and not in a good way. I don’t mean this is good. Like first draft Noll, like, I do a first draft and then I’m like, well, okay, like (laughs) that’s as good as it’s going to be.
Karen Eber
Yes, same.
Sarah Noll Wilson
There was something – there’s a couple of things that I quoted, I’m like, I need to put these on post it notes that you wrote. The first is great storytellers learned to become great storytellers. They didn’t just become it. And great stories are never fully baked. You can’t create, and I mean, this is kind of throughout a couple of chapters. You can’t create and edit at the same time. and you just need to start with an idea. And those were the things that I found myself going, why is that so hard? And I know I’m not alone in that. But what has been your experience, when you’re working with somebody like me who doesn’t think of themselves as a storyteller. Maybe is rushing through it. Yeah, just like how, what – let me actually, let me rephrase it. What are the most common patterns you see get in people’s way of being able to connect with their authentic storytelling selves? Let me start with that question.
Karen Eber
Okay, but I want to go back to what you said before. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, you can go back to the other one, we can go wherever we want.
Karen Eber
I think that you know, when I say you can’t create and edit at the same time, and stories aren’t fully baked, and you just start an idea, with an idea that was meant to be freeing and not a burden.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Karen Eber
That was meant to help you recognize that you are never, in the first pass, going to get the plot, the details, relatable characters, things that are in the story that engage the brain in the compelling way, and tell it with just the right tension, and you know, your whole body language and pause and dramatic like, you’re just not going to do that. Which is why there’s a methodical approach in how you can do that. Over time you figure out your pieces, and you get better at it. You come from a background in improv and you know that the beauty of improv is you do it in the moment, and it is what it is. But you learn as you’re doing improv each time, oh, gosh, I can, I can just dial that up just a little bit more, I can try this or I can try that. And that one shift, that one phrase can make all the difference. And to bring it back to your second question. It’s all about ultimately creating understanding for your audience. So I don’t care if you call yourself a storyteller or not. But I do know that you really care about communicating in a way that is meaningful for people. And that’s all we’re trying to do. We’re wrapping information in a brain friendly way. That’s all this is, and some of it is, you know, I touch on a lot of the science and some new science, when we share information, we’re imparting it, and each person has to think, what do they do with it? And how do they file that in their brain?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Karen Eber
But what a story does is it provides filing suggestions. So the challenge, anytime we’re communicating or sharing data, is that each of us are doing an interpretation of what that is. And my interpretation is different than yours and someone else’s, because we’re making assumptions about what we’re seeing and hearing based on our experiences, which are all different. And when there’s no way to guide people through that you’re risking completely different understandings. But when you are providing filing suggestions, you have a better chance of people getting it. And so if we take like job interviews, as an example, if you just list your experience, that interviewer is going to have their own bias and thoughts of how that experience fits into the company, and what that is worth and what value there is and what the impact is based on what they know. But if you tell a story, and you communicate that you’re now providing filing suggestions for how might this person fit into this company, and how are they complementary, but where are they different, and like, it just, it creates more meaning and it takes less load off the audience.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s such a powerful reframe. And, and that’s what you know, why I can’t recommend your book enough is, it just helps you think about something that sort of been around for millennia, you know, for ages and ages, and to understand what is it about it? You know, it’s not just oh, yeah, a lot of times when we think in stories like it’s, it’s wrapping, I love that that phrase you used for wrapping understanding around the brain and what we know about the brain, and that you and you know, me, I love that, the brain science. And when you were on the, when you were on our show last time, you had just started to, we like touched a little bit on the five factory settings of the brain, but I want to come back to them. Because they’re just so valuable. And for anyone, it doesn’t matter if you’re doing a performance. I mean, we all we all have moments, where we’re wanting to influence, where we’re wanting to build a connection, where we’re wanting to, and without understanding the factory settings, to use your language, we can miss the mark. So can we run down the factory settings? I mean, I know you know them but do you want me to – can we start the first one is my favorite. (laughs)
Karen Eber
Yeah, so the first is that your brain is lazy. Right? Number one goal is to keep your body alive. And your brain is the banker in many ways, the banker of calories for your body. Some are non negotiable, some are gonna go for breathing, digestion, circulation, really important things. But there’s this discretionary fund that is a real miserly banker on that is attention and focus and immersion and effort and flow. These are discretionary things the brain makes the choice out of is this worth granting calories to? Or is it too predictable? Is it too flat? Have I heard this so many times before? We’ve all started streaming something and 15 minutes and it’s not holding our attention, you abandon a book or you’re listening to a speaker and it’s just not the right message, the right time, and you drift off and you start making your grocery list and you start planning your weekend. And that’s not that you’re not a good listener, or that you’re a bad person. It’s the, that’s what we’re meant to do. We’re not meant to be fully immersed all day, every day, our brain is meant to come in and go out. And so anytime that we’re communicating not limited to storytelling, you have to be aware that that there’s a neuroscientist that Dr. Paul Zak he said that people will either listen to what you have to say, or they’ll go watch cat videos. (laughter) That sums it up, right? If you’re not being compelling enough, and so specifically, what it means is if you’re not constructing a story that is so vivid, that we can see it, even if we’ve never experienced it, we can, we can feel like we’re alongside the characters and we can feel the emotion of what it’s like, then the brain is going to be like this might be a good time for us to, to peace out. Or it just might be too predictable. It doesn’t mean you’re not listening or you’re not paying attention. What it does mean, though, is that your brain isn’t as engaged and it won’t necessarily release, it won’t necessarily result in the outcomes that we want.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Karen Eber
And this pairs with the next two, because the brain is always making these assumptions, like we talked about. So some of it is watching what’s happening around us. It’s things like how am I setting my foot when I’m going down stairs, but it’s also making assumptions about what we’re consuming. So anytime someone starts a story, you try to guess the ending, right? We try to guess what’s happening in the book or movie. But we do the same thing in communications. We think like, where’s this going? Is this meaningful? Or if a chart is put up. What does this mean to me? And when you are composing stories, this is a choice of am I going to lean into assumptions, or am I going to slow them down. So leaning into an assumption is something like if I tell you that the character came from a town with one stoplight, you’re going to have assumptions about what that means. If I put in something that is unexpected, and makes your brain hit a speed bump, then it pays attention, both ways, right, the brain is always going to be there doing it. So you either want to challenge it, or harness it. So comedians do this with the challenge where you’re following along in the joke, and then they hit the zinger, it’s completely different than you expect. So where you can put in unexpected words or phrases, or build up the tension and put plot points and, you know, have it reveal itself in a way that’s not expected, you’re gonna get even more calorie spent. The faster the brain can make these assumptions, the faster it can conserve calories. We always want to be responding and not reacting. And responding is much more efficient on the body. Reacting is very expensive and draining. And so it’s part of what we’re naturally going to do. And you have to harness that. And these assumptions come from our experiences, we’re making these predictions subconsciously, based on this library of files and our long term memory of things that we’ve done, experiences that we’ve had. So you want to put things in the story that are really relatable, so the audience can understand it without even having to think it.
So if I say, you know, he had a small incision, we would have different opinions about what small means and what the incision looks like. But if I say to you, the incision was the size of a paperclip, you immediately get that, you can picture it without even having to think like, well, how big is that? So when you can put in metaphors and specific examples like that, you were just getting free real estate in the brain and you’re almost like it’s the Jedi mind trick. You’re putting this idea in their head that they don’t know about. So those first three work together, if the brains lazy, it’s making assumptions that it can try to respond and conserve calories. And all those assumptions and predictions are based on our experiences. And so what you put in the story impacts that. The last to go hand in hand. If you think about the last networking event you went to where you didn’t know anyone, you walk into the room and you start looking around and your brain subconsciously is trying to figure out who to go up to and talk to. And if you’re like me, you’re like, no, no, no, no. (laughter) And you’re just searching for like, who seems friendly? Who seems safe? And that’s because we seek ingroups and outgroups.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Karen Eber
Ingroups are those that share similar values or experiences or even aspirations, right? In sales, it’s that I’ll have what she’s having. I want that. And outgroups are where we notice our differences. Which charities use all the time. When they tell the natural disaster, the story of one person impacted by it, and they’re struggling for clothing, food, shelter. You’re experiencing that story while you’re in electricity, and you have clothing, food and shelter, and you realize how different your experiences are. So you have a choice in your story of, do you want your audience to feel a part of something or something that they aspire to? Or do you want them to notice their differences or both? You know, a company that’s going through a change needs to tell a story that is outgroup. Helping the, the employees recognize why they can’t stay where they are, why they have to make the changes that they’re doing. And the last is that at our most simple level, we seek pleasure and avoid pain. We’ve got the cocktail of pleasure, neural chemicals, like your serotonin, dopamine – serotonin and dopamine, and oxytocin, that are released in moments of connection and bonding. These are the ones that you get goosebumps when someone’s telling you a story, and you just feel it. There’s also cortisol and adrenaline, which are released in moments of focus, which can be your horror movie, or something where you are just feeling that anticipation. And when we listen to stories, we do go through neural chemical shifts. So you have a choice of are you telling a feel good story? Are you telling an uncomfortable story, or both? So you start to put all five together and now you’re making choices of what are you putting in the story that catches attention, leans into or slows assumptions, creates immediate understanding, is a feel good or uncomfortable story and helps people feel a part of something or different. And now you can start to see like, yeah, the brain is going to pay attention to that, depending on what you do.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, the – a connection that was coming up, as you’re talking about the fourth one, the ingroup, and outgroup. I really appreciate the intentionality of how do I do this so they can see themselves in it? Or how do I share a story of how how things are different? And I’m curious to get your thoughts. I’m thinking of a few situations. And, and I’ll own that there have been times when I’ve absolutely done this. When you’re not thinking about your audience, you might unintentionally, or intentionally, tell a story that places your audience in an outgroup. But not in a way that what you’re talking about, because what you’re talking about is being really intentional about am I, am I wanting people to understand someone’s experience that’s different than them? Or am I wanting them to understand an experience that’s familiar to them? And there are times – you know, I’m just gonna, I’m gonna tell you a situation. (chuckles) Right? It was the heat of the pandemic. Mental health challenges were through the roof, through the roof, and I was brought into an organization to just talk about it. And the person who was introducing me, unbeknownst to me put together like a 15 minute presentation, like his own little pre keynote. No, the presentation wasn’t on me.
Karen Eber
No, I’m making assumptions about where this is going.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and the, the stories he was telling came from such an incredible place of privilege. And also, I want to like, context, this is also happening after George Floyd. George Floyd’s murder, where we’re very conscious. Let me rephrase that were many more people and many more white people were conscious of – and it just – I think what I’m realizing is part of what, you know, struck me about this doesn’t feel good or right. Is because it was, it was so focused on an incredible amount of financial privilege, an incredible amount of exclusion, of this special group that he was a part of, that you could only be part of, if you had money and whatever. And essentially what happened, I can go back now and go, I was outgrouped, you know, we all were like this doesn’t, you’re not reading the ro – you know, like, and, and so I think that that’s a watch out too. And you know, and personally I have to be aware of it as, as I try to talk about and bring in more conversations from an inclusion perspective, I have to be careful that it’s not always through a white lens, because it will often be because that’s my lived experience, right? So that’s just a connection I’m making, as I’m hearing you talk about it that I didn’t in the book that I think is actually a profound thing to be paying attention to of how my the story I’m telling, and am I okay, that I might make some people feel excluded? Maybe, I might, actually, you know. Like, if you’ve never experienced this, like, I might be okay that you’re uncomfortable with it. But other times it could shut – for me personally, anyway, it totally shut me down. It turned me off in a major way.
Karen Eber
Yeah, this is where a testing is key, because we often don’t see those blind sides in those moments, but what you’re describing is a risk. There may be, you know, we’re, our goal always is to present to the most excited person in the room, meaning that if you’re doing a presentation to 100 people, and 99 are generally interested. And there’s one that is on the leadership team and is a naysayer and isn’t bought in and you find yourself skewing your presentation to that one. Like that’s not the thing to do, right? We don’t want to present to the margins, we want to present to the majority. And so there may be cases where you’re like, Yeah, I’m okay, if some of these people are outgrouped. And there’s intentional reasons about that. But what you described, I was working with attorneys, and one of them shared a story about a attorney that was presenting to jurors and was trying to be really relatable and was talking about some shopping trip. And I don’t have all the details, right. But the gist of it was, he was in Las Vegas and went to buy a purse for his wife and ended up buying what was a very expensive purse. And this story could not have landed with a louder thud than anything else. Because he totally alienated himself from the jurors. He didn’t relate to them in any way, it screams privilege. There was nothing meaningful in it. And then from that moment on, he lost them. Because it doesn’t matter what he says. I feel different from him. There’s a difference between, I’ve now lost trust, because that’s kind of what happened, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Karen Eber
I’ve lost trust in anything this person has to say. There’s a difference from that and what you’re doing, because the work that we do is a professional agitator. To bring change in organizations and to shape culture and to have them grapple with the difficult things. You have to have an agitator that is taking people through this in a thoughtful way. So there are uncomfortable stories, there are moments of outgroup in that journey, it’s just being thoughtful of how do I not leave them there? And how do I help them feel a part of an ingroup and move to a place where they’re not still sitting in an uncomfortable moment?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. Beautifully said, beautifully said. I’m excited to continue on with your book. And I’m in chapter six. And the thing that I love in your four through five is when you start getting into the practices. So I love, I love theory, but I love tools. And I so appreciate all of the prompts. And all of the ways to think about the ideas and the questions that you ask. I don’t even, I just want – Karen, I just want this whole conversation to be like, here’s what I loved about your book. I’m like, I don’t even –
Karen Eber
Can I ruin?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like, you want to talk about it? I’m just gonna tell you parts of your book that I thought were really brilliant and amazing. (laughs)
Karen Eber
Let me ruin for you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) That’s what this is turning into of like, no, you know, what do you want to add to your brilliant, you know, insights or whatever. (laughs)
Karen Eber
Let me ruin for you. It’s a second half book, like the first half is good, it gives you the foundation that you need. But it really rocks in the second half, because now we’ve got the foundation and now we can get into the fun. So the good stuff is still to come for what it’s worth.
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, I’m excited about that. But I just with what I’ve gotten to, you know, the thinking, you know, because people are, well don’t have good stories. Well, I don’t know where I should pull from them or I’m not creative, or, and, and it’s not just that you say well think about your own life, or think about your professional life or think about people around you or think about your clients. Each of those areas you follow up with, you know, 10 good questions to just start exploring and that that made me really excited to go and now it’s doing, doing the work of like, okay, like, what, what does come up? So, no, I’m excited. Yeah. (laughs)
Karen Eber
My favorite –
Sarah Noll Wilson
What do you want to respond to that?
Karen Eber
Sure. So my favorite moments, because I tested it with a lot of skeptics and people that felt like they couldn’t tell stories or didn’t need to and without fail, every single time they would get to that chapter where it is how do you find ideas which is meant to – ideas come from constraints. They don’t come from a blank page. It’s too hard in that moment, when you’re trying to think of a story, and you’re backed up against a deadline, your brain doesn’t know which file to access. But it prompts narrows it and it helps you tap into all of this stuff. And so I wanted to give different categories of that to help. And without fail, every single person would come back and be like, you know, you might be on to something here, because it made me think of things I didn’t think of. I guess what I want to say is, the question that is the most surprising to me is why did you include checklists in the book? Which is just –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, interesting, my brain –
Karen Eber
Is just so funny to me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I appreciate it the checklist. (laughs)
Karen Eber
Right? I come from a background of instructional design and adult learning in psychology. And what good is it to learn the things in the chapter, and then you have the book on your shelf, and you remember, oh, my gosh, I want to tell a eulogy. Let me remember how to go do that. And then try to remember what chapter that’s in and try to find the place again, like that’s a nightmare. So people were like, that’s so amazing you did that. I’m like, it’s a summary of what’s in the chapter. Okay, let’s be clear, I’m not giving you bonus content that we didn’t cover.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Karen Eber
It’s just in one place. But, I, my goal is I want any person to recognize they can do this. And this guides you through step by step. You’re not always going to have to go through every step, you’re not always going to have to do it in this way. But it’s going to take you through it so that you can figure out what does work for you and how to play with it. And so there’s generic stuff. But then it does get into telling stories for job interviews, telling a eulogy, giving a wedding toast, things like that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Karen Eber
And then the other thing I’ll say, is what we haven’t touched on. I felt like it was really important for people not just to hear from me, I want them to know there’s so many different ways to tell stories. So I interviewed a co-founder from the Sundance Institute, and executive producer at The Moth, creative director at Pixar, the TED Radio Hour podcast host, you know, a neuroscientist, an improv comedian. There’s a different role for each chapter. Some of them are stories, and some of them are a peek into their world. And to me, like I love all of them, because you hear how Sundance approaches manuscripts for films and what that’s like. And so you’re not only getting this process, but you’re getting different perspectives on it, and you get tips on what to try.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, the, I forget her name, but the woman from Moth. That was one –
Karen Eber
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
When I was reading that I thought, I want, I want somebody like that in my life. And then I thought, oh, it’s Karen, I’ll just hire Karen to help me do it. (laughter)
Karen Eber
Well, I felt that way with every interview. In fact, this is, I’m still doing some of those interviews. And I still have some that, you know, unfortunately, when you’re publishing a book, you are only allowed a certain page limit just to make it economical so that people will buy it. It’s already so expensive to buy books these days. So I love doing these interviews to bring them to people because to me, it’s that, What’s In Her Bag, that we used to read in magazines. It’s just a fun look into someone’s world and how they’re approaching it. So I’m looking for a publication that wants to make this a regular column so I could put it in there.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And just interview amazing people and just, you know, like to talk with them about. One of the things that was such a gift when you and I had the privilege of speaking at a similar event, which FYI, here, I’m just going to do a super shameless plug. Karen and I actually, like met and built our relationship during the pandemic online. And we’ve, we declared ourselves the awkward duets, because (laughs) we got on Zoom, and we’re playing videos. We would love to do an awkward duet keynote. So if you can just bring us both to an amazing location, you know, pay for our travel, we will put together an incredible keynote (laughs) that has to do with all things. So there’s our, my shameless plug, but okay, –
Karen Eber
Let me just expand because you said awkward duet, but you didn’t say what it was. We’re not singing, for the record. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, no, we’re not singing. Oh, yeah. Just to be clear.
Karen Eber
It would be an awkward duet with an accordion and piccolo. So first of all audience draw right there.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughs)
Karen Eber
But second of all, it would touch on trust and psychological safety and storytelling, and it would be this incredibly motivating, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Risk taking.
Karen Eber
Entertaining, wonderful, leadership based talk. Available at a town near you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughs) I’m sorry. There’s something when you like a piccolo and accordion, it’s just what an audence wants needs to be our tagline. (laughs) We need to –
Karen Eber
Completely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, but going back to your keynotes, one of the things you do and we talked about, we’ll play with here, is Karen bring somebody up, who has a story that they’re, well, it’s not even in the one that I observed. It wasn’t even a story with a purpose. It was just, what’s a story?
Karen Eber
No, I just bring someone up. And they don’t know why,
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, they don’t. That’s right.
Karen Eber
We’ll do it live. But I did this for a group of mediators. I usually go by volunteers, because whoever volunteers is comfortable enough to be on stage. And the prompt that you’ll see is I asked someone to think of a vacation experience that they’ve had. And then we work through it to show how you can work a story and make it better. The person that volunteered in this particular case, I said, okay, think of a vacation story. He said, I have one. I said, Great. Can you just give me you know, two sentences on it? He said, Yes. It’s about the time I was in a Russian prison. (laughter) Never know who’s gonna come up and how it’s gonna go. But it’s always entertaining.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And then and then the process is you have them share it. And then you ask them questions to bring it to life, and to help them think about it. And then they share it again, and you get to see this beautiful before and after moment. And it was magic to watch you do that. It was so fun to see the collective audience sort of that tension build of how is this going to work out? Is it, is she going to land the ship, so to speak, right? If you’re going to land this, and then it was brilliant. So we thought that it would be, you know, selfishly, to get some free support and coaching from Karen (laughs) on this call.
Karen Eber
Yea! It’s more fun. So were you in Russian prison?
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) I wasn’t. I mean, if you wanna go along those lines, I was I’ve only been arrested once in my life.
Karen Eber
Okay. So it’s your choice. We can use any story, it could be a vacation adventure, or it could be a story you you want to tell in a keynote that we play with?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hmm. No let’s, let’s actually talk about a vacation story. Last year, I, you know, and I don’t know who the audience is. So this is just going to telling a story.
Karen Eber
It doesn’t matter?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Okay. Last year, I know, wait, let’s do something that’s going to be coming up.
Karen Eber
Okay.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So my brother’s never been to Disney World or Disneyland and it was his birthday on St. Patrick’s Day. And so his wife gifted him a trip to Disneyland. And Nick and I will be joining them. That’s, I’m really that’s a trip I’m super excited about.
Karen Eber
That is exciting. So let me ask some clarifying things. Because that hasn’t happened yet. Do you want to talk about the selection of the trip? Or the anticipation? Or how he found out about it? Like, where do you want to go?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure. And we can talk about, we can talk about the selection and the anticipation.
Karen Eber
So give us you know, the 60 second version of that of how it came to be?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. So his wife and my sister-in-law, who I think is amazing, Mariana, loves Disney. And that would be a place that they would go with her family from, cuz she grew up in Mexico. So it would they would fly up to Disneyland. And so she and I bonded over that. And, and in February of, excuse me, in March of 2020, we had a trip planned for the five of us. So Nick and I and the two of them and their son to go and then obviously that had to get cancelled. So about six months ago, it was we’re making this happen. And Marianna is so creative, that she created this beautiful little envelope, this watercolor of the castle, and he got it at midnight, on the 17th. And at 12:21 I get a text from him that’s just a picture of the castle. And my response was, Oh, what’s that? He’s like, You know what it is? He’s like, Let’s go! And so there was a lot of anticipation and secrecy between Mariana and I. And now it’s really exciting now that he knows.
Karen Eber
Oh, that’s so fun. I’m debating the order I want to go in.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, just to be clear, I added way more details just because I’m in your presence. And I’m thinking about that. (laughs)
Karen Eber
Not at all. So let’s start with the emotions of it. So let’s talk about as you and Mariana started talking about this and bring us into, tell that story again, and bring us into what were you all feeling both in the deciding and lead up? And what happens when you get that text? Like what was that whole experience like?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, so when we were secretly talking, one, it’s fun to plan something exciting for somebody in secret. It’s fun to be in the know of what’s going to be a really fun surprise and so there was a lot of what I would describe as giggly text messages to each other (laughs) of September 2024. (laughs) And, you know, and just every time, she sent a photo of the gifts that she was making for him, there was something that felt really special. And then and then on a peripheral level, Nick and I are super excited for him to experience the Star Wars Land. And so that brings up a lot of emotions. But I, you know, for people are watching the video, you can even see it on my face. The minute I got that text, I was just like, Yeah! Now we can, now we can talk about it. Now we can be excited about it. And now, now it’s just on like.
Karen Eber
So let’s talk about what you just said. Because you started right away with two really important sentences.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay.
Karen Eber
You said, it’s really fun to be secretly planning with someone. So that right away, makes it immediate connection to oh, I get what that is. That’s like the paper. The incision is the size of paperclip. You’re immediately having us connect to that feeling without having to say what it feels like. Like, oh, yeah, that’s fun.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Karen Eber
It’s an instant, like, Oh, now we feel that and now we’re a little giggly, which was your next sentence, right? How fun is it to have these giggly text messages. So now we’re starting to experience the mood and the feeling of it. And we’re getting some even more in dynamic details as you start to go through. So let’s do it again. And this time talk about – I was playing with something and I dropped it. (laughs) Let’s talk about what would we see, hear, feel, smell if we were alongside you, or Mariana as this unfolds?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like, like as we get into the trip, or what?
Karen Eber
No, no, in this in this beginning stages, like, as you’re doing all of this, like, make us feel like we’re standing alongside you and experiencing it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. So every time that I would get a message from her of something she was plotting, I would just smile and turn my phone to Nick so he could see what was happening. I would send her photos of different Disney bags that we might, we might purchase. And I know that she desperately wanted this rose gold bag, because she has these rose gold ears. And so I just went ahead and got it for her, and was so fun to be able to send her the text and say, I may have bought this for you. (laughs) And her response being, I’ll give it back to you, I’ll take good care of it. And my response being, don’t worry, I bought my self one too. (laughs) So we can be bag twins and then to find her sending images of just fun little accessories that she’s gotten for us to be able to use and, and here’s what’s kind of cool about it. So while the trip is with the four of us, my sister Becky is, and I know she’ll be doing the transcript, but she’s she’s my like my Disney sister. And so Mariana and I have been, you know, putting out into the universe, we’re gonna get this now, because it’s going to be when the sisters take a trip. So we’re not just enjoying planning for this trip we are envisioning a future trip for sisters.
Karen Eber
See how we took this story that’s a surprise for your brother. And he gets to have this. And now we’ve gotten all these other details where I guarantee you some listener is going to be like, can you please send a photo with the rose gold backpack? (laughter) And when are you taking this trip? So what we did is we took the core basic part of a story and started to put these more specific things into it that are going to make the brain pay attention. They’re leaning into our assumptions, right? By talking about Disney, you’re leaning into our assumptions of what we feel and know about Disney. And then you’re giving us these specific moments. Do you want to put it together and just pull a few of these things together into a thing of whatever you remember?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, sure. So my brother’s birthday is on St. Patrick’s Day. And he got a really special gift that his his wife, Mariana, who’s, you know, she’s the golden child on our family. (laughs) And I say that with love, because she’s just great, that we’ve been planning for six months, and it’s actually a do over of a trip, because we had planned this for March of 2020 for his birthday, and everyone knows what went down there. So it was pretty sad to lose that. And since that time, actually, Drew has been really wanting to, right, get back there and find this trip. And so it’s one of my favorite things I realized in life is planning something special for someone in secret because not only do you get the joy of when you reveal it to them, but you get all the joy in the leading up and so Mariana and I would send each other text messages of, you know, places we’re going to visit, where we might eat and plotting what we’re going to wear. And I knew that she always wanted the, this rose gold bag. And so it was great to be able to send her a message and say, I may have gotten you. And her response being, it’s okay, I’ll take good care of it. And me going, I don’t care what you do with it, because I got myself one too. (laughs)
Karen Eber
Well done.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, thanks. You’re amazing!
Karen Eber
No, you did it. You did it and there’s something that you did that I want to also point out. Our inclination sometimes is to hear the word you is really powerful. So you could have said, Do you know how it’s really great to plan a trip for someone that doesn’t know about it? And you you you you. We don’t like being told what to do?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Karen Eber
Like, if you’re like, you know, think about those moments when you’ve planned a trip for someone. That doesn’t work a lot of times in communications and stories. Because as you’re listing the think about, think about, think about, if our mental story isn’t matching what you’re saying, we get frustrated, but wait, I’m not doing that, like, I’m trying to plan this. And what you’re saying is different, but when you tell your version, when you tell your story, we immediately hear yours relate to yours, and have our own version running in our head. So when people say I’m hesitant to use my own story, or I don’t want to make it about me, sometimes it’s the fact that you do make it about you in service and the audience that they relate to it more.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And it’s building out that color, because that was something too, that you talked about in the book that I highlighted was, when stories, one of the reasons stories fall flat is because the speaker is talking about their feelings about the story, essentially, instead of telling the story in service of the audience. And I appreciate that, because that’s something that also it’s like, well, don’t tell a story about you. Well, sometimes that’s a good story. It just again, like you said, it needs to be purposeful, and bringing the people along, because that was another fun, that was another fun science fact that you shared of – I knew about neural coupling, I knew that we experience what other people experience or we can. What was new to me was the fact that somebody retelling the story to someone else, they will also have a similar experience. And there’s a part of me that when we think about that impact, that not only in how you show up with your stories can impact somebody emotionally, it can then impact other people, which I see this. I see this all the time, one of my favorite stories to tell clients of a client of ours, and he was a former guest. Is this leader, Jeff Anderson, I can say his name because we shared it publicly. Is he said, you know, Sar, he wasn’t talking to me, you know, he was telling Teresa, you know, the thing that keeps me up at night as a leader, is the fact that everyone wakes up and is suffering just by being human. And I think how do we make sure we don’t contribute to that suffering at work? And I can see, I feel the feelings again, and I see the other person like, Who is that and how do I work for that leader? So there’s an awesome responsibility, and an awesome like, opportunity to really create lasting impact in what you’re telling.
Karen Eber
If you do it well, there’s not only this neural coupling where the brain activity mirrors each other, but heart rates will sync. People have been in different cities hearing stories at different times. And they still, they’d hear the same story, but they’d still experienced that same synchronization. And, you know, sometimes the question comes up about what about virtual? It’s not, it’s not – I mean, yes, there is often an energy in a room, right? You can feel things like that. But this still can happen virtually. It just comes down to being intentional, and how are you creating meaning for people. And that’s the hardest thing, because we do have very full days. And we are asked to put stuff together at the last minute. And so the average person opens up their existing PowerPoint deck, and they start making the PowerPoint quilt, as I like to say, this slide and the slide and this slide, and they perfect the deck. And they spend maybe five minutes thinking about what they’re going to say.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Karen Eber
And we need to flip that, we need to start first with the audience, and what they need and then think about what to say, and yes, it probably is more work than just getting up and sharing data or getting up and speaking, but the return is far greater and you’re going to get more payoff and reward. And so we need to flip this mindset of it’s going to take me so much longer like, no, it’s not, it’s actually going to save you time in the long run because you’re wasting so much time today.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, what a beautiful place for us to wind down. Karen Eber, The Perfect Story. How can people what, what’s the best places for them to purchase your book? And how can they connect with you?
Karen Eber
The book is everywhere books are sold in hardcopy, audiobook and ebook. You can find it anywhere. And my website also has those links, which is my name K A R E N E B E R. You can also reach out to me through my website for our hashtag awkward duets.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Karen Eber
Or Sarah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And again, take us somewhere amazing. And pay for our travel and we will do –
Karen Eber
It’s gonna be epic. Whoever makes this leap. It is going to be epic.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And there may be t-shirts, there may be Awkward Duet t-shirts.
Karen Eber
There’s no maybe, there will be.
Sarah Noll Wilson
There will be. (laughs)
Karen, I adore you. I love you. I’m so just congratulations again. I know we’ve chatted since your book has published but it’s been such a treat. It’s been such a treat, and such a visual gift to read your stories because you’re such a phenomenal storyteller that I now know and understand you’ve had to learn, which means I can learn it too. So thank you so much, my dear.
Karen Eber
Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been Karen Eber. And while I’m chewing on a number of things, and looking forward to working with her, I really found that conversation about being intentional with your conversations to either create an ingroup or to create an outgroup and then to be very thoughtful when you might be doing that unintentionally. I don’t know that I’ve ever thought about that in the way that I did in reading her book and I’m so excited for people to read her book. So definitely check it out. And we want to hear from you, what resonated for you, what came up for you? Send us a message at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com, where I read and respond to every message we receive. If you want to support the show, you can do so by becoming a patron. Your financial support will support the team that makes this show possible. Just go to patreon dot com slash conversations on conversations. Another way you can support us that’s super helpful is to be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform.
Now let’s give some love to the crew that makes this show possible. To our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionists Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo crew. Thank you. And just a final thank you to Karen Eber for coming on, sharing her wisdom, and doing some coaching with me of how to make stories even more powerful. Well my friends, this has been another episode of Conversations on Conversations. Remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others we can change the world. So till next week, please be sure to rest, rehydrate and we’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.