Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Jami Haberl as they discuss mental wellness, share insights from their own healthcare journeys, and examine the crucial role of empathy and systemic changes in promoting mental health and well-being in the workplace.
Jami Haberl assumed the role of executive director at the Iowa Healthiest State Initiative in December 2014. Her dedication to health and wellness blossomed at the age of 10, prompted by a pivotal event when her youngest sister fell into a coma at just 1 year old. This profound experience catalyzed her lifelong commitment to understanding the interplay between controllable and uncontrollable factors affecting health. Recognizing the critical role of health in enabling individuals to lead vibrant and purposeful lives, she embarked on a journey to champion well-being. Her career has included working on state and national initiatives in the field of telemedicine, healthcare reimbursement, bioterrorism, disaster management, and public-private partnerships.
A native of Lohrville, Iowa, Jami received her undergraduate degree in community health education from Iowa State University, a master’s in public health, and a master’s in healthcare administration from Des Moines University. Jami and her husband James Peterson live in Des Moines and enjoy scuba diving, biking, hiking, and traveling the world.
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TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me today is my colleague and friend Jami Haberl. As we discussed the topic of mental health, so let me tell you a little bit about Jami to get you set up. For the last 10 years Jami Haberl has been the executive director at the Iowa Healthiest State Initiative. Her dedication to health and wellness blossomed at the age of 10, prompted by pivotal event when her youngest sister fell into a coma at just one year old. This profound experience catalyzed her lifelong commitment to understanding the interplay between controllable and uncontrollable factors affecting health. Recognizing the critical role of health and enabling individuals to lead vibrant and purposeful lives, she embarked on a journey to champion wellbeing. Her career has included working on state and national initiatives in the field of telemedicine, health care, reimbursement, bioterrorism, disaster management and public-private partnerships. A native of Lorhville, Iowa, Jami received her undergraduate degree in Community Health Education from Iowa State University, a master’s in public health and a master’s in healthcare administration from Des Moines University. Jami and her husband James Peterson, Live in Des Moines and enjoy scuba diving, biking, hiking, and traveling the world. Please enjoy this conversation I was privileged to record with Jami.
Jami Haberl. Welcome to the show!
Jami Haberl
Well, hello, hello. Thanks for having me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m so, I’m so excited. It took us a bit to get to this point. And you’re here and we’re doing this. So Jami, other than what we’ve shared in in your bio, what else do you want people to know about you?
Jami Haberl
Well, I am a native Iowan. And I think one thing a lot of I mean, I grew up in rural Iowa town of 300, oldest of five kids. But I’ve lived in the Des Moines area for gosh, over 20 years, kind of hard to believe. And to say that out loud, right? And I’m just really passionate about a lot of work in the area of prevention, you know, like, looking at things that we can control versus things that we can’t control. Whether it comes to previous work that I’ve done in disasters or my current work of working in the health and wellbeing space. And I love to scuba dive.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, where’s like the coolest place you got to scuba dive?
Jami Haberl
Oh, gosh, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Or what one of your favorites?
Jami Haberl
One of my favorites is the Maldives. Definitely. It was one of my favorite and Palau is impressive in and of itself. The underwater landscape is unbelievable.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What do you like? I’ve never been. I’ve never been so what do you like about it? I’m so curious.
Jami Haberl
So I think what’s interesting for me is I actually don’t know how to swim. But it was, (laughs) which I know.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, this makes me feel like this is a possibility for me because I can swim, but I can’t swim great. Okay, wait. Yeah, continue.
Jami Haberl
So I, I really, I mean, I could probably doggy paddle and survive, but I don’t know how to like, I couldn’t swim laps or anything by any means. So I think part of it, that it pushed me outside of my comfort zone. And it is the one place that is feels like, I’m just meditating, and I’m hanging out with this beautiful marine life that isn’t talking back to you or saying things negative, (laughs) right? It’s a very peaceful place to be. And the ocean is such a critical component of the earth, and our environment. And so it just provides a great place for me to shut my brain off because my brain struggles to shut off a lot of times. x
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I understand and I feel that intimately. Thanks for talking about that. I want to see pictures afterwards. Okay. But, Jami, I don’t know, you and I’ve known each other, we got connected through our mutual colleague, Kristin Sauder, a number of years ago, but I realized in preparing for this conversation, although our paths crossed online and in person, I don’t know your journey to this place. So what what was your evolution to moving into this work in this role that you’re so passionate about? And, and I just want to say this, we have listeners all over the globe. So while there might be things that you’re speaking to specific to the work you’re doing in the state of Iowa, the United States, there’s a lot of great resources on their site that is available to anyone who would benefit from it. So I just want to level set that. So yeah, what was your journey to this work?
Jami Haberl
So it really takes me back all the way to the age of 10. So I share that I’m the oldest of five. My youngest sibling who is 10 years younger than me. She actually has lived with chronic genetic disease since the day she was born. We didn’t know that when she was born, but at the age of about 18 months old, she went into a coma. And so as you can imagine a 10-year-old, right, who their youngest sibling goes into a coma, we’re not really sure what’s going on. And the journey that she has taken throughout her entire life has really been one of trying to figure out, A what, what was causing this coma, what was the diagnosis. She was diagnosed with a very rare metabolic disorder. She was one of 100 in the world that was known to have this disorder.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Wow!
Jami Haberl
And so throughout her course of her life, I’ve been able to, I guess, experience or endure what it’s like for someone to live with a health condition, one that she was born with, and really had no control over. And how it’s really impacted her life. You know, she’s now 35 years old, but she’s disabled, she, you know, probably functions more of someone who is probably nine or 10 years old. And so you just see how health really drives one’s ability to live their fullest life, and how that could have been very different, obviously, if she wasn’t born with this metabolic disorder by any means. But it really provided me I guess, an opportunity to walk into what it’s what health really means at such a young age.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jami Haberl
And so that was, I would say, is what started my journey on this. And originally, I had planned and wanted to be a physician, but throughout college, and throughout even high school, I worked as a certified nursing assistant and did home health care and hospice work. And I really, I think, got burnt out on direct care, to be honest with you. And I thought, how can we do this differently? Or how can I work in a space that allows more ability to look at kind of the community environments that drive our choices each and every day and ultimately drive our health outcomes? Right? Yes, genetics plays a role on that. But a lot of it is outside of that. And so that really started my journey of work, of doing public health and community health education early on in my career, and took me through an interesting route to get to where I am today even.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, there’s, thank you for sharing that. I didn’t, I didn’t know any of that about your story now. So it was having a moment of thinking, man doing doing hospice support when you’re at any point, but especially when you’re younger. What, how did that experience shape you? Did you say you were in high school, college when you were doing that work?
Jami Haberl
Yeah. So it’s interesting. When I was going into sixth grade, I’m the oldest grandchild on my mom’s side of the family and really close to my mom’s side of the family. And I actually, my grandmother, at the time, had asked if I would watch my great grandmother, hang out with her overnight, because they were going to a wedding out of town. And she hadn’t been feeling well. And my great grandma probably at the time was I’m guessing in her 80s, close to 90s. Right. And so she actually passed away when I was caring for her that night.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(gasps)
Jami Haberl
So I think I’ve reflected a lot on that, and especially recently, because my grandmother is actually in hospice today. And I think she still carries a lot of burden of like, Oh, my gosh, I sent my granddaughter in there, and then her mother died. But I think it, I was telling my mom, even just the other day, I think it has given me a different perspective about health and about life and about death, to be honest with you, that I don’t know that I could ever have experience outside of having to experience that moment by losing my great grandmother, because that I think was the start of me wanting to do direct patient care, going into even doing hospice work, and having a different kind of lens, and appreciation for what the end of life can be like for some people. Unfortunately, we don’t have that perspective always in our society, right? We want people to live forever and ever, regardless of what their quality of life is. And so it’s really given me as I, as I’ve gotten older and thought about just my own journey, right? It’s like, it has provided a type of experience that I don’t think I could have ever created on its own. And I think is really giving me the opportunity to have empathy and to understand, really the value of health and how it can impact one’s life, whether it’s today or in the future.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That gosh, there’s, there’s a lot to unpack with that. And it also, knowing you the way that I do, getting to observe you and the work and what you’re so, how you show up with your passion. I feel like I’m having this moment of that makes even more sense now. So I appreciate that. The other thing that I want to go back to for a moment, when you were talking about the experience with your sister and navigating all of that and I wrote it down so I wouldn’t forget it is that idea of experiencing versus enduring. And like – and I’m just, I just am curious to tease that out a bit. Because when we think about experiences in the with our health system, with our mental health system. You know, sometimes it’s a good experience, and sometimes you’re just enduring, enduring it. And I’m curious, how how does that shape you? Or even maybe the question that should be asked is, how do we even take that into consideration of am I creating something that’s a good experience or am I creating something that is an endurance for somebody?
Jami Haberl
Yeah, that’s a great question. Because I definitely, the experience of healthcare, I would say has definitely evolved even the time over as I think about the many times you know, that I would sit at the University of Iowa’s Children’s Hospital with my sister who was in the hospital and watching my mom experience and navigate a system that she knew nothing about. I mean, I consider her an expert when it comes to insurance and health systems now, because she’s had to do it for so long, in all honesty, and I think part of it is you just, you have to either figure it out on your own, right, or, and you have to be an advocate. And, um, and that’s the hardest role. And I think the most important role that my mom has definitely played for my sister, and even for us siblings, you know, to really, you got to push forward and try and make the most of what resources you have available at that time, even though it can be extremely challenging and extremely difficult.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that. Okay, let’s spend some time. Let’s talk about mental health. And for people who are listening to it, I’m wearing my Make It Okay shirt, that is part of your campaign. And when this episode airs, so just for folks listening, I believe in honesty, we’re recording in April, and this will air sometime in May, during Mental Health Awareness Month. Jami, something that I keep hearing people say, some people say, particularly in our work is the pandemic is over. I don’t understand why people aren’t just quote unquote, going back to normal. Please respond. (laughter)
Jami Haberl
Oh, if it was so easy, right? So I think what’s been interesting with the mental health journey, as I think about it, even as – so before the pandemic hit, or as the pandemic was hitting, so my work prior to entering that, Iowa Health State Initiative was working in disasters, but those type of disasters primarily war, very demographics specific, right. So it might hit a community, and one of the lagging challenges of any natural disaster is mental health. And so when I, you know, early on, when the pandemic started, I was like, mental health is going to be the biggest challenge that comes out of this, this event that we’re living in, right, and we really didn’t know what we were living on at that moment in 2020. And so, you know, I kept saying, We’ve got to really focus on our Make It Okay, work, we’ve got to be talking about mental health, because not only are we going to see an impact immediately, following or during this disaster, we’re going to see, for years, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jami Haberl
This, mental health is going to continue to be a challenge. And it’s really going to relate back to the disaster that we all live through in 2020 and plus, right? And so it’s not something, mental health doesn’t just magically fix itself. And I think it’s foolish for any of us to think, well, we’re out of the pandemic, right, so it should just all go away. And everyone should just be back to where we were in, you know, December of 2019. That’s not going to happen. We’ve all lived through some pretty significant trauma. And some this has been, the trauma has been much deeper than others. But we, every single human on this earth, has experienced some form of trauma because of living through a worldwide pandemic. And so it’s not just going to go away, it’s not going to go back to what it was in 2019 and before. Like, we have to figure out what this looks like going forward. And how do we put the systems in place? How do we put the resources in place to support the trauma and the mental health impact that this pandemic has caused on this generation and generations to come, in all honesty?
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s interesting to hear you use that language of disaster because I’m realizing, while we all felt it was a disaster, I don’t know that people talked about it like that. And they still don’t, and, and, you know, you mentioned that, that lagging, right? That mental health challenge of lagging. What, what are you seeing in your work, or what are you seeing in the research that you all follow? Because I know what we’re observing are things like we see that resilience feels lower for a lot of people, burnout feels higher in a way that maybe it didn’t before. So I’m curious, just to what are, what are you seeing? What are you all talking about? Or what are you hearing from the frontlines of research around how is this manifesting? And I know that’s a loaded question. Because how it’s manifesting for some people is different than for example, you know, have have young nibblies, who were like one and three during the pandemic, and how it’s manifesting for them looks very, very different now than how it’s maybe showing up for you and I.
Jami Haberl
Yeah, so I would say we’re seeing a lot of the same things you just mentioned, right? I think burnout in multiple areas of the workforce is at an all time high, right? So I think part of that is because when you’re dealing with a pandemic type of disaster, versus a tornado or a flood, for example, it’s kind of like there is this feeling of where you move into recovery.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jami Haberl
Whereas with a pandemic, I don’t know that we’ve ever moved into recovery. And we’ve really reflected on the impact of that disaster. And so I think that’s having a much more challenge on our mental health than any of us – and I personally see that myself, to be honest with you. I think that’s been, I’ve never took the moment to like, Okay, let’s decompress. We just went through this event. And it was a pandemic, and not a flood.Which I’ve experienced floods and tornadoes for a number of years and in my previous work, and we always have this moment where it’s like, Okay, now we can say that we’re done, we move on, we go through this recovery phase, and then it’s over. Well, we can’t do that with a pandemic. It’s so different.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jami Haberl
And so I think that burnout, why we’re seeing it in other sectors outside of what I think we were seeing during the, the exact, you know, pandemic disaster, like teachers and our healthcare system, is because none of our society, we just kept moving on. And I think it’s okay to move on. But you also have to have time to almost like, grieve and step back and evaluate, like, holy smokes, what did we just go through? (laughs) And how to go forward better, right? I don’t think we’ve ever done that. And I think that’s definitely causing some of the challenges for mental health across multiple age groups and sectors here as well. I think also, the other thing that I’ve been seeing is we’re kind of reverting back to some of the, I’m going to call toxic work place cultures, like those are coming back. And it’s almost like, we didn’t learn from the time of the disaster of the pandemic. And so we’re reverting back to some of these very negative culture aspects that I would hope we wouldn’t revert back to, I think part of is lack of empathy. Part of it is like, Why can’t people just like figure this out? Kind of, it’s kind of the same stigma that we would see around mental health conversations before the pandemic. And then we started to see those go down, because of course, everyone was struggling, to be honest with you, whether we had a diagnosis or not was irrelevant.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jami Haberl
We were all struggling. And now we’re coming into this next phase. And it’s like, okay, well, everyone should just, that’s in the past, let’s move on, we should, gotta catch up for the time that we lost. And that’s not, that’s not positive. And that’s not a good direction for us to be going, in my opinion.
Sarah Noll Wilson
This is why I’ve been waiting to have you on the show. This is why I’m so excited. That, that point of when you go through something that is event based. And there is this very clear, recovery time. I’ve never thought about it, but sure as hell did experience it, have experienced it before. And, and it’s and I was reflecting as you were talking, there were some organizations that I feel actually did a really good job of, can we just talk about what the hell happened? And what we did to navigate that? And how do we honor it? And how do we honor how it’s shaped who we are? And how do we use that to inform where we’re going and who we want to be? But to be real. That was one company. And so in the spirit of, you know one of the things we always try to do with this show is share specific strategies or questions or topics. What might it look like? And I’m curious to get your thoughts on a couple different ways. What would it look like as an individual to take time to move into more of that recovery reflection phase? What might it look like for a family, or a team or an organization? Or maybe you have examples of what that looks like done really well. I mean, something we’ve talked about is we should just do in a whole separate podcast on what was your COVID experience? What did you lose, what became clear for you, what was really hard when you look back? Because there’s, god there’s stuff, you look back now you’re like, holy shit, we went through some stuff.
Jami Haberl
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, like, I can’t even look at some of my photos from that time without still having a reaction of, of that. So yeah, what, what might it look like for us to take some time and reflect and go, What the hell happened?
Jami Haberl
Well, I think part of it is what you said, it’s stepping back and pausing and giving the space to even reflect.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jami Haberl
I think we’re really good about just keep moving, right? And not really giving the space for us to stop and pause and ask the question, right, like, what was lost? What, what worked out really well during that time? Right? What was a positive during that time? What did you see that was different? But then what, you know, having the ability to actually like, what was lost? What were the challenges? What were you frustrated with the most? You know, and how can we reflect on those? And then how can you use those to do things differently going forward as well. And I would say, personally, I’ve been doing a lot of that just recently, because I have recognized myself like, oh, man, I don’t think I ever took the time to actually like, you know, do this decompression, or as we often used to say in the disaster, or do an After Action Report. Okay, what worked well, what didn’t work well, right? And like just even myself, personally, trying to really take the moment so that I can, it’s like, digest it all, recognize it, and then be able to move forward having recognized that. I think sometimes when we don’t recognize it, we don’t have the conversation, or we just want to not have the conversation and keep moving on. It just continues to almost stew within yourself and that can lead to other physical or mental challenges going forward. And so it’s like, we got to be able to have these conversations and not just ignore what happened during that time.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and that, that’s such a gift. And I, I don’t normally do this. But listeners, people who are listening, if you want to share your COVID story with us, send us an email at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com where myself and my team and I’ll share it with Jami, we will happily hold space if you want to processes this. Or you can send us a voice note or whatever. I just, I do think that is so important. The other thing that I’m curious to get your thoughts on is (exhales) it’s hard for – it’s hard for us, it’s hard for some folks to see how that chronic stress, that chronic experience, that trauma, that disaster, which I’m going to just use every time now. Thank you. How that impacts how we’re showing up. And there’s there’s two sort of ways of it right? I was talking with a group, this was about two years ago, actually, a year and a half. And I was talking about this idea of PTSD and how a lot of us don’t have a clear understanding of, of what PTSD is. And we think it’s only specific to an event. Or we think it’s going to be very obvious that oh, I’m having this reaction because this event happened, when we might not realize that maybe I’m shorter with my spouse or my family members, because I am just in sort of a chronic state of dysregulation. So what, what are, I don’t want to say symptoms, but what are signs? Or what are some – I mean, are symptoms, right? What are some of those things that you’re seeing? Or that the research is showing of how some of this mental health crisis, right, kind of the post crisis is showing up for folks?
Jami Haberl
Well, I definitely think some of that ties to, you know, you can have physical symptoms, and we’re seeing so you know, even looking at some of the diseases that are continuing to challenge Americans that are really chronic health conditions that I think stress can also add to that, right? Whether it’s autoimmune disorders that, you know, we’re seeing, or just obesity, diabetes, heart disease, I don’t think we all appreciate. And I’ll be even honest, that I probably didn’t give as much credit to what stress does on your body, both mentally and physically. You know, but it’s actually it’s like this hidden thing that’s just, can really impact your long term health and even your short term health. And it’s hard for us, as a society, to step back and recognize that, man, the stress level, like how do I reduce it? And so I think you start to see, you know, increase anxiety, you see people maybe barking at people differently than they have or not having the patience, as well. And I think a lot of that is really driven by stress. And we are often in that flight stage, right? We’re not really finding ways to deregulate. And I know there’s a lot of conversation about self care. And we talk about the importance of those. But are we really giving the space for people to actually do them? And to do them well. Not to just say, Oh, I’m gonna go do my meditation for one minute and I’m going to be pretend – like I’m doing it, but are you doing it?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jami Haberl
So that actually has an impact. And that is really, you know, deregulating your system and putting you back into kind of that equilibrium versus constant height, I mean, we’re living in this state of awareness, of heightened awareness that does not have a positive impact on us long term. I mean, some level of stress is okay, but not the level that we’re, we’re seeing, and I would say in kids to adults. And that’s what’s scary, it’s definitely within our kids, because that’s going to have a long, that impact on them scares me for the future.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. I want to, I want to come back to the kids for a second. And, because that is an important conversation, and that idea of really prioritizing it and not realizing it. And again, we’re speaking from an American capitalist, hustle culture mindset. But we’ve been doing a lot more work on burnout with teams. And you know, so often it’s, How do we help people navigate burnout? I’m like, we need to be talking about how to prevent it. Because by the time somebody’s crispy, by the time that you’re already there, that’s a, that’s a bigger hill to come back from, and even that – we were just having a conversation this morning. So for listeners, Jami asked me how I was doing and I was sharing that I’m exhausted today, I’m really tired. I was really, really tired. And I’m in this incredibly privileged state of being my own boss and having a successful company where I could say, I need to take it easy today. I need to literally just take a nap at nine o’clock in the morning, because I’m so tired from this week. But as we’ve been exploring this idea of burnout with organizations is, how do we think of being proactively resourcing ourselves? And that, I will tell you, we should probably just do a panel discussion on this. I think that has taken me years to truly untangle that tolerance of stress, that belief that hustle means success. And to be more proactive about it. Because even like you said, like the one minute of meditation is going to give you a minute of pause. But that’s not going to, that’s not going to resolve, (laughs) you know, 20 years of just stress and it’s not going to also prevent whatever, whatever stress might be coming, might be coming your way. So what is that? You know, what are some of those strategies or even ways? Because the other thing I’ll say, sorry, let me make this last point. Self care is often prescribed as something that’s reactive and very individually focused. Right?
Jami Haberl
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Instead of how do we systemically, how do we as an organization, how do we as a state, how do we as parents of this family, how do we, how do we think proactively about resourcing ourselves when we know it’s going to be a busy time, when we know we’re going into a stressful season? So I’m just curious to get your thoughts?
Jami Haberl
Yeah, that’s a great question, because so much of it is reactionary versus how do we actually prevent that? I mean, I think the answer – there is no, right or wrong answer.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yes, exactly.
Jami Haberl
But I do think, like, part of the challenge is, how do we learn to say no? Because we can over program ourselves easily, and we can over schedule ourselves. And so how do you start to – this might start individually, how do you protect certain things that is going to ensure that you can be the best person that you can be, right, and be the healthiest person that you can be? And I think everything around us makes us say, well we can’t ever say No, right? Because there’s these expectations. But in the end, if we don’t take care of ourselves, I mean, someone once told me, “You’re always replaceable, Jami.” Right? So as hard as I may work, and as I want to put it, you know, I think working harder means more success or whatever. In the end, if I should drop over and die tomorrow, they will replace me, right? And so I think we have to sometimes put that perspective and I’m just as guilty of it. By all means. I have been a recovering workaholic for quite some time and I still have times where I have to work on it more. And sometimes I think the smack in your face is when you start to experience whether they’re physical or mental health challenges because you haven’t taken that as a priority.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jami Haberl
And we, the hard part is how do we not get people to that point?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jami Haberl
So then that’s a ah-ha wake up moment. And I think that’s the hard part, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
It is.
Jami Haberl
Well that’s not gonna happen to me, right? That happens to other people, not me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and to the point you made earlier, we don’t always realize that the physical challenges we’re having are directly the result of the stress we’re experiencing. Because it’s not, it’s not a visible line to say, no, the reason you’re, you’re you’re having X challenge is directly tied to the level of stress that you’re carrying. Let’s talk about the kids. Because that, you know, we, it’s been so interesting. I feel we are completely ill prepared for what is coming. And, you know, Nick and I have talked about there will come a point where there’s going to be some diagnosed pandemic, you know, what I mean diagnosis. And think of the developmental stages? You know, we hear this from people and clients and friends, you know, my kid went to college and the first two or three years, and they’re like, it changed him, it changed her, change them. And they, their anxiety is higher, the fear is higher, the social anxiety is greater. And then I sit there and I look at, again, I mentioned my young niece and nephew. And boy, that was a tough time to be a parent of littles, when you’re literally going, I don’t think I can pick you up. Because we don’t know anything about this. And all we know is that people are dying from this, right, this disease or this, this virus. So what, what is valuable, I guess I just want it to be open. I just want to open it up to what are you all talking about? Again, what is research? What do you want us to be thinking about? Just I don’t even know where to start? Because it’s such a big, open ended thing that we’re gonna have to deal with and are dealing with.
Yeah, so I think what’s interesting as we’ve worked with youth is they have a better understanding and appreciation of what mental health is, than I would say, the older generation. So even like the work that we’ve been doing with Make It Okay, it isn’t really about creating, reducing stigma, necessarily, with the younger generation, it’s really about creating spaces and understanding of reducing stigma with those adults in their lives.
Sure.
Jami Haberl
Because that’s the comments they say to us is you know, my parents don’t believe me, they don’t believe it’s real. They don’t want me to go to therapy because of the stigma that sits around that. But they openly talk about it amongst their friends and amongst people in their own age group. And so it’s been really interesting to just kind of learn about that, I guess, as we met with youth. But then it also makes a lot of sense. So I think about even my generation, I was never taught anything about mental health. We didn’t even, we talked about physical, I know how to do CPR and know how to do first aid, right? But we really never talked about the brain, the mental health, like, at all. And so I also have an understanding of like, that’s why stigma exists for us. Because we were never given the tools. We weren’t taught, we didn’t talk about it, it was definitely something that was you know, behind closed doors, but we have to start talking about it. Our youth, youth are being directly impacted. But so we’re so many adults who may not even realize it. And it’s like we got to, stigma can’t be the barrier to entry to help support people so that they can truly live their healthiest life. Right? And so we’ve got to be having conversations at all levels. But we definitely need to be having in that conversation, for the older generation to learn to accept that this is real, just like physical health, illnesses are real, and how can we really make sure that we’re supporting them in the best way, but also, how can we prevent some of this, the mental health conditions impacting more and more people, right? So when you think about the environment, and you think about our food choices, there’s so many things that is driving not only physical health, but honestly, our mental health. And, you know, I always say our brain is connected to my whole body (laughs). It’s not separate, right? So we need to be thinking about holistically all the things that are, those inputs that are happening, the things that we can control, there are uncontrollables by all means as well, but what are those things that are driving not only physical health challenges that we’re dealing with, but also those mental health challenges? We’ve got to support kids now.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it will be interesting as more younger people come into the workforce because that’s something I see in the young people in my life as well, is they’re talking to each other about stuff that, like you said, we didn’t even know existed, right? I just had stomach issues all the time. Well, now we understand that that was anxiety. (laughs) You know, like, that, that we just have this greater, this greater understanding. And, and the other thing is, and even when sometimes we do understand or have education or information or our own shared experience, right, one of the things we see is that even, that doesn’t necessarily mean you know how to show up for somebody. That doesn’t mean you know how to support somebody. That there are things that we can say or do that can be unintentionally, incredibly dismissive. You know, a lot of folks will resonate, right, somebody struggling with anxiety. The worst, not the worst thing, but one of the most ineffective things is to say, don’t worry about it. (laughs) And you’re like, “That’s cute. I know. Thank you for that.”
Jami Haberl
It was so easy.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Is that what I needed to do? Wow, okay. Like ADHD, just focus. Huh, wow, really appreciate that. Um, and but it’s, it’s with good intentions, right? And so what are some of those strategies of how we can show up more powerfully for ourselves? Right? How do we give ourselves that grace and compassion? What are some of those things that maybe we can even say to ourselves when we’re in those heightened mental health challenges? And what does it look like to truly effectively be supportive of someone else?
Jami Haberl
So I think part of it is listening. Right? So we’re so good at, I always remind people when we do our Make It Okay presentation, like we have two ears for a reason and one mouth, but we often use the one more than the other two, right? And so when I think about when I’ve been even approached by individuals who are sharing their mental health challenge, or challenges, or you know, a lot of it is they’re looking for someone to listen to them and not to judge and not to always have the answers. You know, and I think that’s the hardest part. I think, naturally, we want to be able to help people. And I’m definitely one of those, like, how can I help? What can what can I do, right? And sometimes it isn’t doing anything specifically, it is really just listening and understanding, and maybe asking them, how can I support you? What do you need right now? And it doesn’t have to be like, here are all the answers in the world to try and fix it? Because yeah, a lot of times you end up saying more hurtful things.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jami Haberl
Even though that’s not the intent, right? So it’s something you know, what I’ve really learned, as I’ve learned more and reduce my own personal stigma around mental illness and all honesty is like, part of it is just stepping back and being someone that they can share with and I don’t have to have all the answers because they’re not necessarily looking for the answers for me anyway. Right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jami Haberl
So I think that’s like, that’s been my biggest aha, through all of this work, as sometimes you just got to zip your lips and listen, and see how you can, ask them directly how you can support them. And it may just be, thanks for just listening to me. Because I’ve had that happen many times. It’s like, thanks for just understanding and listening and not judging me. That’s all I needed right now.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. It’s the, it’s the, how do you be the person that people can share the messy hard stuff with you, you know. Who, who – how do you be the person that somebody knows, I’m, I’m in a real vulnerable spot, but I know I can call you and I know, you can hear it. And I know, you won’t judge me, and you won’t try to fix me, because that’s something we often hear. And we we’ve talked about that on previous episodes of the show is, you know, managers in particular will say, but I’m not a therapist, ya, no, you know, as Erica Reed, one of our trauma informed specialists that we talked to, She’s like, Good, yeah, no, we don’t want you to be the therapist. That’s not the goal.
Jami Haberl
Exactly.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But how do you validate it and normalize it? And even if you don’t understand it to just like, I’m sorry that this is something you’re having to navigate? What else, as we think about stepping into this next chapter, if you will, what else do we need to be thinking about for ourselves and for others, knowing that the mental health crisis is going to be a delay or lagging behind or is going to show up in ways we don’t realize always?
Jami Haberl
I mean, I think when we, holistically health in general, I think we’ve seen some pretty significant impacts from the last couple of years. So, you know, that definitely there’s a lot of talk about the mental health components, but I think that physical health side of things as well, we’ve seen, you know, increased rates around cancer, we’ve seen increased rates of obesity and diabetes. And so like, as you think about, again, my whole body, right, it’s not just picking out an organ or here and there, that the level of stress, the environment that we’re living in, the policies that you know, drive our choices each and every day really do have an impact on the overall health of each and every one of us. And we may not see it tomorrow. And I think that’s the hardest part, sometimes working in this space, is the things that we are even trying to do. So even as we’re talking about reducing stigma around mental illness, the impact might not be, or the outcomes might not be there tomorrow, or the next year, right? Sometimes it takes a generation to shift. And that’s really hard for our society to put our heads around, because we’re very much like, we’ll it should have happen yesterday kind of thing.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jami Haberl
It’s not, we are we aren’t – and this is why the world the work of prevention is so hard is because we expect, we expect it to be fixed yesterday, not in 10 years from now. So even when I think about our childhood obesity challenges that we talked about, the things we do today will have an impact, yes, potentially tomorrow at a small level. But really, those impacts are long term, right? They’re generational shifting. And that is really hard for us to think about. So as we even think in the workplace, it’s not just about tomorrow, it’s about what does this even look like, as we think about our youth today, and they’re entering into the workforce and the next, you know, every year they are, but if we take this generation, what is, what are the impacts of that going to be? These children are going to enter the workforce with very different health challenges than when you and I entered the workforce. Right? And so like, how are businesses even preparing for what’s to come when it comes to I mean, we see higher rates of mental health diagnosis, we see higher rates of diabetes and obesity in the generation that’s entering the workforce today than we’ve ever seen before. And so when you think about your whole population, a lot of times it’s, if you want to get into the money part of it even, right, is the younger generation tended to be healthier, so they were helping support the older generations that naturally you have more chronic health conditions and disease. But we’re not going to have that healthy generation per se, to help kind of floats and even out the amount of funds needed for health insurance for example.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jami Haberl
It’s gonna look very different, but I don’t think we’re thinking about those things.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So interesting. No.
Jami Haberl
Like, why aren’t we talking about that today. And that’s why it’s so important that we are doing things for our youth today, because they are our future workforce, they will be the ones caring for us. And I really hope that we can set them up for better success than we have in the last generation, so that they can enter the workforce and be productive in society and not have health been a major challenge and barrier for them to be productive.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. And even just understanding that fundamental difference is going to be challenging for a lot of folks, because you already hear it, people don’t want to work as much, they’re not as, right. They’re not as tough. They’re not as – and not taking into consideration that there are some differences. It’s not some individual selfish choice by that person. It is the system. It’s the container in which they were grown in, essentially. And you know, and and I get it, right, companies are looking at what’s our survival this year? What, our – And something that’s been a shift for me, in my own health journey over the last year is, what can I, what can I start doing today so that 60 year old Sarah will appreciate, right? What do, I how do I start being aware of well, my muscle loss is gonna start increasing, and how do I do some strength training? How do I start taking more calcium supplements? Makes me feel so old saying it, but you know, the reality is is like, and it’s interesting to think about, especially those organizations that are legacy organizations, how do you, what are the things you can put in place now that will support not only your workforce now, but set your workforce 10, 15 years from now up for success? I think that’s a really provocative push. Jami, it’s always such a pleasure to talk with you. And I’m so, I’m so excited we made this happen, and, and we will absolutely make sure that we connect to all of your great resources. On a personal level, Jami, since this is the first time you’re on the show, I have to ask the question we ask all first time guests, and that is what was the conversation you had with yourself or with someone else that was particularly transformative for you?
Jami Haberl
So I’ve thought a lot about this question, right? Like, (laughs) where do I even go? I think one of them that still, that shifted my focus in my early 20s when I was at a high burnout even, was the conversation that you are replaceable. And really reflecting, and I haven’t perfected this, by any means, because I have some perfectionism issues, (laughs) myself, and workaholic issues, right? But that, that is true, we are all replaceable, we will all die some day. And so as you think about and especially in my early, in my, into my 20s was really about I gotta work work work because that that defines success, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jami Haberl
And I kind of wish I even talked, thinking about myself at that time, I wish someone would have smacked me upside the head sooner and said, That isn’t everything, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Jami Haberl
Do you want on your gravestone, Oh, she worked herself to death?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Jami Haberl
I mean. So I think really, it’s made me think about what, what do I want my legacy to be? And is it, yes, the work I do every single day. And I’m super passionate about this, I feel so fortunate to work in something that I have such purpose and passion around personally, as well as professionally and not everyone gets that opportunity. So I feel so lucky and privileged that I’m in this position. But I also remind myself that, you know, life is short, it’s precious. And it can’t be everything that I am. It has to be much more than that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Jami, for people who are interested in connecting with you, either to learn more about the work that you’re doing with the Healthiest State Initiative, or looking for resources, or just wanting to connect with you on a personal level, what’s the best way for people to connect with you?
Jami Haberl
Yeah, so all of our, we’re on every social media platform at for Iowa Healthiest State Initiatives. So you can definitely check those out. And most of them are just Iowa Healthiest State as our, kind of our handle. If you want to find me personally, I’m on LinkedIn. And it’s Jami Haberl. So pretty easy to find, as long as you spell it right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, we’ll put it in the show notes. Make it really easy for folks. Jami! Thank you so much for the work you’re doing and for being willing to come on the show and share all of your beautiful insights. I appreciate you so much.
Jami Haberl
Well, thanks so much. I remember the first time I met you. When you spoke at our conference many moons ago. So I appreciate all the work you’re doing to bring awareness to all of these topics that are so important.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s got a, it’s taken a community, right, to support the community. So, thank you again.
Our guest this week has been Jami Haberl. And as always, I leave thinking things, feeling things and chewing on how to do things differently. And this particular conversation, I’m really struck by the fact that there hasn’t been sort of this collective or intentional reflection on, what the, what the hell did we all just experience over the last couple of years? So that’s something I want to take on for myself. And as always, we want to hear from you. We want to hear what resonated for you, what came up for you, what questions came up for you? And if you want to share your COVID story, you can share that with us at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com, where I read and respond to every message we receive. And if you liked the show, there’s a couple of ways you can support us. If you haven’t already, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us increase visibility, so we can continue to have great discussions like the ones we did with Jami Haberl. Also consider becoming a patron, where your financial support will go to support the team that makes this show possible and you’ll get some pretty great swag and you will also get episodes early and ad free. You can do that by going to patreon dot com slash conversations on conversations.
And a big thank you to the team that makes this show possible. To our producer Nick Wilson, our sound editor Drew Noll, our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo crew. And a big final thank you to Jami Haberl and the work that she is doing. Well my friends, that concludes this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So till next week, please be sure to rest, rehydrate and we’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.