Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Ify Walker as they discuss Ify’s work challenging and disrupting the norms and biases involved in hiring, and offer actionable insights for creating inclusive workplaces.
Ify Walker is a proud product of Nigerian parents, Wisconsin, and Head Start. A fierce believer in the power of equitable culture and talent practices, Ify’s experience sits at the intersection of law, fundraising, and talent cultivation. She is a steady and courageous advisor whose firm has helped over 200 companies hire top executives from Offor’s talent network of over 10,000 leaders. As the Founder and CEO of Offor, Ify leads with her values: she believes that when people’s needs are prioritized, everyone can do their best work. As such, Offor invests in a paid certified financial planner and mandatory paid six weeks off for all of its employees. When she is not leading a growing national firm and debunking the meritocracy myth, Ify is running Mom’s School of Excellence with her husband—the most important decision she has ever made.
- Website: www.offor.co
- LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/ifywalker
- X: twitter.com/ifywalker
- Book: White Women: Everything You Already Know About Your Own Racism and How to Do Better by Regina Jackson and Saira Rao: www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/669854/white-women-by-regina-jackson-and-saira-rao
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to another episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. As always, I am your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, (whispering) and I am so excited for this week’s episode. Joining me today is an incredible woman, Ify Walker, and I cannot wait to talk about all the ways she is disrupting how we think about hiring people. But let me tell you a little bit more about Ify. Ify Walker is a proud product of Nigerian parents, Wisconsin and Head Start. A fierce believer in the power of equitable culture and talent practices. Ify’s experiences sit at the intersection of law, fundraising and talent cultivation. She is a steady and courageous advisor whose firm has helped over 200 companies hire top executives from Offor’s talent network of over 10,000 leaders. As the founder and CEO of Offor, Ify leads with her values. She believes that when people’s needs are prioritized, everyone can do their best work. As such, Offor invest in a paid certified financial planner, and mandatory paid six weeks off for all of its employees. When she is not leading a growing national firm and debunking the meritocracy myth. Ify is running Mom’s School of Excellence with her husband, the most important decision she has ever made. Welcome to the show Ify.
Ify Walker
Thanks so much Sarah. It’s a delight to be here.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m so excited. Okay, so first, what else do you want us to know about you?
Ify Walker
The let’s start with the last, the last thing that you read off, Mom’s School of Excellence. Sometimes people think it’s an actual business. And it’s not (laughs), I just want to be clear. But this is this really harkens back to pandemic times where we sort of all had to decide what to do, if you were a parent, or you were, you know, a guardian for a young person, figuring out what to do for school. And so I literally created a school, and I called it Mom’s School of Excellence. And we did that right. So that’s really what I, what I’m referring to.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, I love that.
Ify Walker
So I want to dispel any stories out there. I mean, me running two companies at the same time. I’m not.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I was like, take my money. Is this a nonprofit you started? And like I can get behind anything you do. So do you still? I mean, are you still or did you transition out of it?
Ify Walker
No, no, we transitioned out of it. But I will tell you, it was probably the most powerful year, year and a half for our entire family. We set up a system, we hired teachers, they came to the house. It was, it was really powerful for our family. But no longer, no longer running Mom’s School of Excellence.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What? I’m curious. What, what do you wish you could hold on to or still create for your kids from that experience? Because it’s, that was such a challenging time. And a really challenging for parents, let’s be real. I mean, it was, everyone had different challenges. But boy, did parents have a whole different game they were having to navigate. I would imagine that being able to, I don’t know, I’m making an assumption here. But being able to have more control, or influence over how your kids were, what they were learning, how they were learning, how they were protected. So I’m just curious what that transition was like for you.
Ify Walker
Yeah, I really appreciate that. So the thing I would say that we would, I would love to have been able to hold on to are a couple of things. One is that there were no more frantic mornings. Right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
I know, right? There was none of the, “Oh my gosh, we have to get at this specific time!” It was, we could have breakfast together as a family, we could, we started our – we did gentle mornings, right? We could start the day at nine. That was such a powerful way to set the tone for our entire day. The second thing is you you hit the nail on the head, which is just the way I could protect my kids. Because I was selecting the adults who were in front of them. They, my kids were seen. They were known. I’ve got kids like we all do kids with, you know, neurodiverse children, kids who need different accommodations, and all of those things were met with normalcy in a time that was not normal, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Ify Walker
And so to experience that really set a new bar for our family. And the third and final thing I would just say was the spaciousness to decide, right? To say, here is how we are going to create a culture for our family. Here’s what we want to be true. And so here are the set of behaviors and actions that would align with that and I think because the rest of the world had also sort of taken a step to pause in that way. It just facilitated the opportunity for us to do that in a way that we just had not, we had not done before. So those are the three big standouts. Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, that – no, I appreciate you taking the time to answer it. And one of the things that was coming up for me, especially as you were describing the gentle mornings, is, what a, what a – one, what a beautiful description. And also, as companies are, you know, quite frankly, still wrestling with how do we say there are still people who the preference is to work from home. And, and it made me think of a colleague of mine, and he said, I never got to have breakfast with my kids. And I don’t want to give that up now. And so it’s not it’s not just the commute. It’s not just, I mean it’s so much bigger. And even just the language used of starting your day with a gentle morning. (laughs) I made notes I underlined it even for myself. What a gentle morning be like for me as just a grown adult who’s only responsible for herself. (laughter) But, but that like, that’s the loss for a lot of people when they’re asking them to come back into work, and it, you know, and to your point, it can impact the whole day when you start off so frantic when you have kiddos.
Ify Walker
That’s exactly right. Yeah, no, I miss I miss those gentle, gentle morning. So the summer plan is to reincorporate that but, you know, once you transition back to someone else’s schedule, and clocked –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
It becomes a lot more challenging.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Well, folks, you can already understand and listen to why I was so excited to have this conversation. Ify you and I got connected through our colleague, Stephanie Chin, which some of you may be familiar with, either through her episode with, with me last year, and also the fact that I quote her quite frequently on the show. (laughs) But, but I want to – talk to us about – so let’s, here’s the two for questions. So talk to us about the work you do. But then take us back to what was your journey to get to this point?
Ify Walker
Yeah, sure. So as you mentioned before, I am the CEO and founder of Offor, which is an executive search and talent brokering firm. We focus and work mostly with founders, first time CEOs and boards as they’re working to build executive teams that will solve some of their most pressing challenges. And not just for today, but for for growth. And as I think about, you know, your second question around, you know, the journey to get here, I think the clearest way to think about it is just, I grew up in a family of immigrants, of Nigerian immigrants. And it was really clear to me that education was of the greatest importance, because they’ve literally left everything in pursuit of it, right? And they came to this country, they created a bridge for me and my five siblings. And they created a space for us to learn the rules of America, but also the spaciousness to learn how to break them. And so that was really the big central takeaway is, observe, understand what it means to exist in this world. What does it mean to be Nigerian? What does it mean to be, you know, one of three black kids in your only or all white school? Learn the rules, but not so that you can continue to mimic them? But so you can break them? And so I really carried, carried that through, right? So when I ultimately decided to sort of leave the the sort of quasi corporate, you know, path that I was on. It was because I’d been fascinated in my previous role, parachuting into new communities and setting up new, essentially organizations for a large national nonprofit. I was really fascinated by how people were getting hired, right? So I would create a new organization, and I’d have to partner to find a new leader. And I was just so shocked by the fact that this thing around hiring that I thought was really a meritocracy actually wasn’t.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
That most people that were getting hired were actually hired through networks and relationships. And so when the opportunity came where somebody actually reached out to me and said, Hey, I’d love to hire you for this job that I wasn’t interested in. And I said, Hey, I’ll get back to you in 24 hours and, with some ideas, and he said, Well, how much do you charge for that? That’s sort of set me on this quest to say, Okay, let’s let’s figure this out. Let’s figure out how to get hired. Let’s figure out what the current rules are. Let’s see who this is working for. Let’s see who is not working for. And then let’s change the rules.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
Right? So that was the journey.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well – Ah. I’m, I’m fascinated by what it looked like as you were being raised to, you know, to understand the rules that makes sense from a survival perspective. And then and I’m just curious, like, what did it look like to be encouraged to break them? You know, and, and I say this from, so let me let me share some context, right? So I’ve grown up in the Midwest my whole life. And one of the things that, that’s a journey for me even, right, from the standpoint of we have a very much a culture of sameness. And, and being willing to break it and some of it is, right, it’s easy for me to keep following the rules, because it serves me as a white woman, and I benefit from from that system. And so it’s just, yeah, there’s just something that I’m fascinated with from the standpoint of being encouraged. And you were very aware that you were being encouraged to see, understand the rules, and then, but not to adhere to them, but to do better and to do different.
Ify Walker
So I would say that it was like a lot of things. It’s just, it was just again, through observation.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
So we grew up, I grew up in small towns in Wisconsin, and we had different experiences in some of those towns. Some of those towns completely embraced my family. Others were places where my dad was stopped every day on his way back from work by the police. And so being the same was never really an option. So that was off the table. And at the same time, through the power of observation, I could see how, what people expected of me or my parents would rub up against what they expected. Right? So essentially rules, different rules coming to head. So a couple of key examples would be things like, at one point, my mom, who’s now a retired pediatric oncology nurse, she was an OBGYN nurse, and she would travel to another small town for work as a nurse and a woman delivered a baby, a white woman delivered a baby and then the woman called security in the hospital and said, a black woman has stolen my baby.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(inhales) Oh no.
Ify Walker
And what was interesting was, so the security guard came out. And he said, Oh, who stole your baby? And they pointed to my mom, and he just started laughing. Because this was a gentleman who would oftentimes drive my mom to work when it was really snowy, when it was wintertime. He was like, he just thought it was so preposterous, right. But, and then hearing my mom retell that story, there wasn’t anger that she expressed, she thought it was ludicrous, as well. And just another example, of quite frankly, just sort of the ignorance that was in that particular particular town and not a town that we actually lived in, but where she worked. And so to me, that was an example of sort of rules being sort of broken, right? So the rule was that my mom was supposed to be afraid. The rule was that she was supposed to cower. The rule is that she’s supposed to get super angry and leave that sort of environment or job where sort of those sorts of things would routinely happen.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
But her approach was different. Because she wasn’t born in America, right? She didn’t have the same. She hadn’t been raised in the cocktail of constant racism. She was, she was raised in Nigeria. And so her whole demeanor around that situation and situations like that, was just so different from how people expected her to show up and behave. So that’s an example of what I mean in terms of understanding the current dynamic of what people think about you, what they thought was going to happen, but then seeing how my parents reacted and how they move through the world was it just a very stark difference and reminder of understanding what the rules are, but also understanding how they might be broken as well?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. And it, you know, and it aligns so much to the rules and expectations when people, like let’s connect it to the work you do and when they’re applying. I mean, the the research is so conclusive that even down to your name will get your resume accepted or not, gender, resume accepted or not. I’m curious if you can, you know, from your experience and the research tease out for us, what are you know, cuz you mentioned, right, it’s not a it’s not a meritocracy, on multiple levels. Right? Who gets invited, who gets accepted even the interview process of what that looks like? Because that’s one of the things that I love learning about how you approach your work to break the rules of what it means to even go through the interview process. And how do we make that a much more inclusive process? So, let’s start with what are the things that people don’t even – maybe the obvious things that keep people out. Like, that gate, keep people, gate, people keep people out, you know what I’m saying?
Ify Walker
Actually I do.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What are the things that people it’s, it’s, it’s just a subtle, we just this is how you do business. This is just you have to have a cover letter and you don’t send interview questions ahead of time. And we’re always going to do that. So yeah, what are some of those key things that get in our way? And that, sorry, I want to I want to correct my language, but don’t get in our way. But like, are literally designed to keep people out. Like, let’s let’s sorry, I wanted to use clear language.
Ify Walker
Yeah, so it’s interesting. I. So whether it’s designed or not, I’ve, I’ve really thought a lot about even that language, because I don’t know, I used to believe exactly what you just said, designed to keep people out. I don’t know if I believe that anymore.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
I just think it’s the way things are done.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
And they’re haven’t, most people haven’t been shown a different way. And so like most of us, we need to take shortcuts in our lives. And so one of the shortcuts that we first observed was this idea that when a candidate didn’t work out, that it was probably about the candidate. The candidate wasn’t a good fit. Right? That was the language that was used. When we took a step back and we looked at the research, and we also looked at research around equity generally, is that, you know, let’s just take it outside of the hiring process for a moment. If you and I, Sarah, we’re looking at a pond. And we noticed that some fish were not making it. I think both of us would probably say like, what’s in the water? Like, what’s going on in the water? You wouldn’t say, maybe those fish don’t have the right gills, maybe they don’t know how to swim. It’s, you’re laughing, right? Because it’s ridiculous.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ify Walker
It’s ridiculous. We would assume that the fish, they know how to swim. They, you know, they probably have, you know, their fins, like, their gills are good, we would say there must be something in the water that is causing certain fish to die. Right, or not make it. But for some reason, when it comes to organizations, and cultures, we don’t have the same approach, we actually look at the individual fish and say, it’s you. You need to fix yourself, you need to change yourself. And so in our research, we got really curious about that to say like, let’s stop asking this other question that folks, let’s ask a different question that we don’t see getting asked, is what’s going on in the water? Right? And from that was born the very first stage in any Offor process, which is what we call a talent and culture audit. Essentially, it’s a water analysis. What’s in your water, right? And, you know, I have a child that has a peanut allergy, for example. And that doesn’t mean the peanuts are bad. But I need to know what’s an ingredient, right? So that she doesn’t become ill. And similarly, the water analysis, the I know, I’m mixing metaphors here, but –
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m, my ADHD is tracking.
Ify Walker
You’re tracking, you’re tracking? You’re good? Is, is allows organizations to be really honest about like, here’s who we are, here’s what’s in our water, here’s what’s on our ingredient list, so to speak. And also so that candidates can openly decide, Is there something here that I might be allergic to?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
Is there something here that may not be good for me, right? That might cause a reaction that’s not positive. And so it really began to change a conversation and change expectations and so much so that there are now candidates who will ask organizations, I want to see your talent and culture edit. I want to understand what you all have identified is happening in your organization so that I can better understand if this is a place where I can thrive. And so really moving it away from the individual and moving away from whether an organization is good or bad. And just saying you, it is. It is.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s all of it. Yeah. Ah, okay. I have so many questions, and I have so many thoughts. So I’m trying to slow down my brain a bit. Okay. So first is what kind of pushback did you receive in the beginning from companies? Because when I think about my experience with the hiring process, either being on the receiving end or hiring, when I think about companies that I’ve observed in the hiring process, my experience has been there’s very much a, we’re doing them a favor, like we’re in the position of power. And sometimes companies would get, honestly, like, a little threatened when the person’s like, but we’re interviewing you too. I mean, even even in our work, and I know you do this when, you don’t take on every client, just like we don’t. We’re, you’re not just evaluating us. We’re evaluating you. And you can see people have a reaction. So I’m curious, what kind of what kind of pushback did you get? Or how did people respond to that? Because they’re looking to you, bring us the best candidate because we got the opening, we’re going to do them a favor. I mean, you know what I mean, like, there’s that wasn’t said, but that was the energy. Yeah. So how do people respond to that when you first started pushing on that?
Ify Walker
Well, one, one thing was that we didn’t use the language that you know, they’re interviewing you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Okay.
Ify Walker
What we did was, what we said was if we’re in this conversation, we’re starting with the assumption that you want to get this right. So you don’t have to do it over. Right? That immediately brings the temperature down. And the second thing is, it’s also just to be real is to say like, this is what you would expect. You are also a high performing executive. And what typically happens is that a lot of people are already getting this anyway.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
But it’s just the people who have an insider track or have a relationship or, you know, connection into the organization. They’re able to say, Hey, Sarah, let’s talk offline. Can you tell me what’s really going on in the company? So some people are getting this anyway. And so just acknowledging that this is happening, and what we’re not saying is that equity is about removing things or not people not getting access. It’s just saying everyone should get the buddy treatment.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
The buddy treatment already exists for some people, let’s give it to everyone so that when Ify and Sarah show up for the interview, we’re not playing a game of pretend we’re, we’re pretending that Ify and Sarah have the same amount of information. And that one person just happens to use all the right words and all the right things and can solve all your problems, let’s be honest about the fact that not everyone is coming to the table with the same information. And this is a way to do it. Right? So that you’re evaluating what this person can do and what they can solve, not just how much prior knowledge they have coming into the into the organization. And so with that perspective, a lot of organizations were quite open to it. I will say that when we first started, we also didn’t charge for it. Right? We just said we’re just going to do it. And so there’s also a very low barrier to entry for them. There’s nothing for them to lose, they didn’t have to pay anything. And so once we built up a significant proof point, and we’d proven that this product works in terms of retention and success, then it really scaled and grew. From there. Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
- Yeah. I always love, I always love when people push on language or reframe it and go, Oh, yeah, we didn’t use that language. We use this language. And also that reality, to that point you made earlier that there’s there’s no good or bad organization. There’s both. Like there’s, there people who will be, you know, like you’ll enjoy working with and people you might not, but to be able to make that educated decision. And exactly to your point. Some people have inside information. You know, I can’t help but think about, yeah, I just was talking to somebody yesterday that was interviewing for a job. And they’re like, I asked a couple people and I rescinded my, my, my name for it. Because it’s so easy to present an edited version of like, here’s how, here’s how great we are. And here’s what we do. You, you shared with me and you wrote a really great post from the standpoint of we need to think about hiring as like a marriage of how do we come to the table? Here’s how I interpreted it of, right, of like, here’s how, let’s come to the table so both parties have as much information as they need to make the best possible decision. And so I would just, I would love to hear more about about that thinking and what does that look like in your world then?
Ify Walker
Yeah. And so just to stay on this theme of the talent and culture audit. So this is the foundation of everything. And so what’s been really fascinating is what the research shows. The research shows that you know, 40 to 50% of executives who are hired from outside of the company, are not considered a success 18 months later.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, interesting.
Ify Walker
We think that’s astounding considering the amount of time and financial resources that are oftentimes devoted to hires and the cost of having to redo a search over. And as we dug into the research, what we discovered, again, was that for the majority of these individuals, it was not about competence and skills. This was really about politics and culture. And if I don’t understand the politics and the culture of an organization, how am I going to know what is acceptable here and what is not acceptable here. And I don’t have the social capital that I’d have if I was coming from another organization. So I always like to say, for example, you know, let’s just take it outside of the work context and let’s just talk about a marriage. So my husband and I, when we say clean the house in my family, it means one thing to me. (laughter) And it means something different to my husband.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Yeah.
Ify Walker
I’m not going to tell you which, what it means. I’ll let you all infer whatever you may. Needless to say is that unless there was a conversation about this is what it means.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
Unless there is a conversation about this is how we plan to, this is what we think excellent looks like for our family, for our kids. Or excellent, good looks like around cleaning the house, then there’s going to be conflict.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
You’re going to think my way is wrong, I’m going to think your way is wrong. And before you know it, we’re gonna look like we’re not a fit. Whereas if we could detail those things upfront and say, here’s what it looks like, here’s what really is going to be challenging for Ify. Here’s what’s really going to be challenging for this your hiring manager. Here’s what being a team player looks like at this organization and not fluffy words. Right? And so this, this is a foundation, that when we get down to finalist candidates, these candidates sign an NDA. And then they get a complete copy of the talent and culture audit, right? It’s like, you’re checking their references, but they’re checking yours.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
Right? You’re checking their references and trying to look for trends. They’re trying to ask smarter questions based on the same set of facts so that you all can come together and say, you know, not only is a technical piece there, but culturally, we are a match for each other. Right? And that’s where it moves from just celebrating the wedding, which is like the hire, anyone can do that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah!
Ify Walker
Moving to a marriage, how do we make sure that the marriage, the marriage works?
Sarah Noll Wilson
You’re singing to my heart right now. Because so much of the work that we’re passionate about is we don’t think about the relationship until there’s a problem. And we aren’t, and we don’t take the time to recognize and name and be okay naming, Where’s the sandpaper moments going to be between us? And like, let’s talk about it upfront. And I’m not Pollyanna to think that that’s going to remove all conflict, or, but at least we’re normalizing that there will be differences. And, you know, and that’s something that I’ve, I’ve been learning over my journey too of it isn’t enough, right? When people say a more diverse team outperforms a more homogenous, it’s it’s not that simple. It’s a diverse team who can manage the differences effectively, right, so that people have voice and they’re not silenced and all of that. And, and, boy, I can only (laughs) I can only imagine how for a lot of people you work with, likely it’s the first time they’ve thought about it in that way. Is that fair? Is that a fair assumption?
Ify Walker
It is fair?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
It is fair for both, for both the organization and the individual. And so much so that we’ll have, you know, new hires, who will start and we’ll say, six months later, oh, my gosh, I, I really should have understood that you really meant every single thing that was in the audit, it has all come to to pass and many of them will say thank you. Because at the time, I thought, Oh, this is so novel, this is so great. But now I understand that essentially, what you were helping us do was to close the gap between expectations and reality.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
Right? Because that’s where the challenges come is, I expected it to be one way. But it’s actually another way. And that’s where I now feel like, ugh, I feel like I was, there was a bait and switch. I feel like you know, you gave me a dog and pony show, tell me things have changed. But if I could, if I could say to myself, Hey, you knew some of these things, right? These things were known to you. I can tell myself, I can begin to cognitively tell myself a different story. And similarly, we’re helping the organization also say you knew Ify hated spreadsheets. You all knew this when you hired her. Right? You all knew that this is this is how she operates. And so this is what she’s gonna need to be successful and you committed to those things, right? So let’s remember that there’s no perfect, there’s no perfect hire, but that these are the things that need to be true for this person to be successful. And the audit can really help get both the hiring manager and the organization and the individual on the same page. Right? And if it’s not the same page, and they can, they can say no.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Right. They just, it’s a much more informed. And, you know, the other thing is, like you were saying there’s the the espoused values. Like, we always say, I don’t care about your, like, what’s the the way we kind of phrase it is, your culture isn’t the words on the walls, it’s the actions in the halls, right?
Ify Walker
Oh, I like that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Because everyone like talk, they can talk a good game, they can talk about, here’s who we are. And we’re, we’re innovative, and we’re this and we collaborate, we’re all about transparency. And we’re all about disagreement. But really, we’re only about transparency when it’s the person in power. And really, we’re only about disagreements when we are comfortable with it, right? Like all of that. And we all have it.
Ify Walker
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We all have things of you know, like, and this is something actually Steph and I have worked a lot on is like, especially growing up in the Midwest. So I’m only just going to talk about it through my lens. This is such an implicit culture here. And I’m sure that you experienced that up in Wisconsin. And then that applies to a lot of companies, it becomes very implicit of these are the rules. And sometimes we don’t want to be honest with this is how the reality is. Okay, so I’m curious.
Ify Walker
(laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
When you – I love everything about what you’re doing. What, without sharing specifics, like I don’t, like not companies, none of that. But the one thing I am curious, what are some of the most common surprises that come up in the audit for the company? Right things that they’re like, oh, right, that is something that’s here? Like, what are the, what are some of the most common patterns that people wouldn’t maybe openly say? Or see or name because it became so, they tolerated it for so long, they normalized it whatever the case is. I’m curious if there is like some patterns there.
Ify Walker
Yeah, I appreciate that. So there there are, there are lots of different patterns. So I’ll give a couple examples. So we worked with an organization where through the audit, and this is why the audit so powerful is because the audit is an opportunity for us to test your culture before we invite our network in. And we tell our network, we will not send you to any place whose cultural waters we have not tested for ourselves. And through the process of the audit, what we learned was that we just saw how we were being treated, right? There were no, I don’t know, I think at one point, we were reading with some executive, they canceled, you know, the meeting six times, they’d done a bunch of – it was. And so in our in our debrief in that audit, what I chose to say was, here’s what I’ve observed, I’m not labeling it. I’m just saying, here’s what I’ve observed, right? You’ve canceled this meeting five times, you shorten this meeting from an hour to, you know, 15 minutes, you’ve. And so when I go back, when my team goes back and talks to the network, and they say Ify, or to my colleagues, take off your talent, matchmaker hat and just talk to me about this org, would you work there? What do you want me to say? What do you want me to tell them about what I’ve experienced? And so it was just a mirror, right? I’m not saying it’s good or bad. I am just showing, right? This is what I’m experienced. And it was like a light bulb went on? Oh my gosh, right. The behavior versus words. I’m saying I’m committed to attracting a diverse network of people. And I, we don’t have any black people in this organization. And we definitely want black women. So what do you want me to tell them about the black woman in front of you right now? Right, and this is my experience. And so what I would say what’s been surprising, actually, is just how effective mirroring has been?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
Right? To say, here’s how we’ve experienced you. We had another organization where we were leading a really big CEO search, and it was clear that the board they’d been a founder board and they were not accustomed to being asked for very much and essentially, you know, a similar thing. They weren’t talking to candidates the way we thought that they should, they weren’t extending themselves and really cultivating them in the way that they would have expected to be cultivated and we finally had to have a Come to Jesus moment where we did the exact same thing. I said, this is how you showed up. You are not attending meetings, not everyone is present. You’ve missed calls with prospective candidates. Here’s the feedback that we’re hearing. When we go to this person that you’re really excited about and they say Ify, or to my team, What is your experience going with the board here? What do you want me to tell them? Do you want me to tell them about these missed meetings? Do you want me to tell them about the fact that you’ve canceled on other candidates? Do you want me to – what you want me to tell them? And it was, again, one of these light bulb, sort of moments of oh, this is how we’re showing up in these ways that we have come to accept, that we’ve normalized because we’re the ones doing all the asking, we’re the ones with the power. This is how the process is. And so we’ve we’ve found out those sorts of mirroring moments to be to be really, just to be really powerful. And then the last thing I would say is that the smaller pieces of, okay, now we’re working with the organization. I will say that the group that has probably, where it’s been the most fraught, are with founders.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.
Ify Walker
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I have assumptions about why but tell me what you observe. Yeah.
Ify Walker
I wonder what your assumptions are? What are your assumptions?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, yeah. See if we have a mind meld. I mean, some of that is when I, when we’ve worked with founders, there is a level of protection, a level of ownership, right? This is my baby. There’s also sometimes a gap of, of competency and understanding, right, like, I’ve had to build it myself, or I’ve had to do this, I’ve had to scrape by. And so maybe an overestimating of their ability to do the very things you’re asking. The biggest thing is the protection and the letting go, especially, especially when it’s a founder stepping aside and bringing on someone else. And the other place that we see it similarly is in family organizations, where they’re bringing in somebody who’s a non family member, is real tricky.
Ify Walker
Mm hmm. You hit everything. Like you’ve said it all, right, it’s just the number one thing that we see – and I’ll say there’s some nuance here. Right? So I think globally, what we’ve seen is just a high levels of ownership also in defensiveness.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.
Ify Walker
Right. It is – and feeling personally attacked. Because they, in a lot of ways, like their identity is wrapped up. And I’m saying is as a founder myself, right, you know. And so those have probably been the, some of the more challenging situations. And the nuanced thing that I would add, though, is that it is particularly fraught, for reasons that are understandable for women. And also for founders of color.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.
Ify Walker
And what we’ve observed, and sort of our initial hypothesis, and some of the trends that we’re beginning to see is that there is more criticism levied towards women founders, and founders of color. And so it’s this twin, interesting thing that we’re trying to figure out where there is, it’s not that there isn’t some truth to the things that need to shift. And also, it is also true, that they are getting criticized more, right, that their work is scrutinized more. And we see less defensiveness in a lot of our white male founders.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.
Ify Walker
And that would make sense.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.
Ify Walker
Because they’re also getting criticized less. Right? And so it’s just been this really interesting challenge that, I’ll be honest with you, we’re still grappling with because the data is saying certain things. And also, it’s also true that this other dynamic is also at play. And teasing those things out has been challenging, right? And that’s something we’re trying to figure out in Offor labs, how to, what’s underneath that? How do we shift that? How do we learn to tease and pull that, pull that apart when we’re looking at our findings and the data that comes out of organizations,
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, and that’s so consistent, even just with like, studies that have been done on the type of feedback that’s given to people. It’s, you know, either it’s more critical, it’s more biased, it’s more generic. It’s often about character traits, instead of like competency. And yeah, it’s interesting as you’re talking about it, because I immediately was like, oh, yeah, like I’ve seen that and then you know, and then you know, and then there’s the reality of if if you are wanting to bring on, I mean, let’s just talk about bringing on a woman of color to an organization that’s predominantly white, the odds are not in her favor. By, I mean, every stretch of like, every ounce of research is, it’s going to be an uphill battle, unless you’re really intentional about it. One of the things I was curious to, to get your perspective on, and it actually was something that, it was something Stephanie and I have talked about. She actually posted about it recently, and I was chewing on it through a couple of different lenses is, you know, when you think about, there’s these organizations who for, you know, ethical reasons, high integrity, or just wanting to be competitive in the marketplace, are realizing it’s not going to work if we just keep hiring people who look and sound like us. And we know that hiring isn’t enough, because of the water is poisonous to certain types of fish, it doesn’t matter. And one of the things that she she had had shared about that I thought was and again, we’ve talked about is that when you think about a group that is typically similar, homogenous, what it needs for them to be to feel psychologically safe, is very different when you start to introduce different types of people into it. And the the point that she was making, and I’m excited to dig in with her and I’m curious to get your thoughts is, that can be a hard transition. And almost a loss for the group. And so like, that’s something we talked about with my organization, is, you and I’ve talked about, right, we’re largely white women, things that feel good and safe for us – and also Midwest, like, let’s also name that. That’s a very important like, that it’s going to look different as we grow. And as we work with people who aren’t from the Midwest, and as we work with people who aren’t white women, and you know, who bring in a different perspective. And I was thinking about it, because I see it a lot in organizations where it the executive team has been all men, and now they bring on a woman. And it’s like, they can’t, they don’t know how to, they don’t know how to calibrate. And so they just exclude her, like, well, we’re gonna keep going to the bar, we’re gonna keep going to our sporting events together, but we’re not going to include her. And so I’m just curious to get your thoughts on what you’ve observed and witnessed as you are working with organizations that are trying to expand. And that dynamic there?
Ify Walker
Well, we’ve seen it across a couple different dimensions. And I want to talk about the one that I’ve seen get the least amount of coverage. Which is really around diversity that’s not necessarily racial, ethnic, or gender based, but is really around neurodiversity.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Oh, please. Let’s do it.
Ify Walker
Yeah, and so one of the things that we’ve observed, and I’ll you know, even just use our company as a, as a as a litmus test is we’re not doing a great job. Right? I mean, organizations, by and large, are designed around people who are neurotypical. And so when you have someone, for example, who may might be neurodiverse, let’s just take something I’m more familiar with, because of, you know, individuals in my own family who might be on the spectrum. And so there are certain rules and certain expectations for external facing roles that we’ve all accepted. You have to make eye contact, you have to be chatty, you need to engage in small talk, you need to smile a lot. If you’re in person, you’re okay with being touched even on the shoulder, all these things that are very uncomfortable, and tone is being policed constantly. And people who are neurotypical will then take that as you’re being difficult, you’re being rude, your your tone is difficult. We’re all uncomfortable. And there’s sort of this expectation that people shift and no spaciousness at all to say, what would it look like? Right? And so, one of the things that I’ve been really struck by, and I did write write about this was, you know, a woman who interviewed for a job at Offor and what she did when she came on to the zoom. And she turned on closed captioning. And I turned off my camera, and I wept, because it was such a powerful example. She’s a PhD, you know, you know, had her PhD, this very accomplished leader, but she needed something different. And I don’t know which I don’t know why she needed, it didn’t really matter. But in that moment, it was also a revelation for us about like, who we had left out, who we had not considered in that moment. And so I think for a lot of organizations, and even in that moment, I remember how, after I’d sort of, you know, wipe my face and gathered myself because it reminded me of my own child and I thought, oh, gosh, this is so helpful, because maybe by the time she’s an adult, maybe maybe the world will look different, they’ll be more accommodating for her. But at the same time, what it also revealed for me was all the people we had left out, right. how our process didn’t include, you know, different ways of accessing information and how awkward I felt seeing my own speech, run across the screen, right? So to your point of the friction, when you haven’t prepared yourself to operate differently, and we have to stop pretending what we’ve seen is that organizations that acknowledge that it’s going to feel uncomfortable, acknowledge that you are, that if you’re in the majority class, this is going to feel different, you are going to feel uncomfortable. And it’s really a balancing act, that my discomfort with seeing my words displayed across the stage is not higher than her discomfort of not being able to understand what’s happening in an interview, and that we just have to stop pretending that these changes are going to be frictionless, that they’re going to be easy for all, that they’re just met wave a magic wand that you’re a bad person, if you don’t get it right and just stop doing and that’s what we’ve really come to observe.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Boy that, you know, my colleague, Dr. Teresa Peterson, and I we’re just talking about, you know, any change is going to have friction. There’s no – and, you know, and and, and sometimes when something’s uncomfortable for me, the check I do is my discomfort right now, is honestly not as great. It’s not, I’m not dismissing myself, I’m right sizing it, is how I, for me, how I like resonates for me. It’s like, I’m going to right size my discomfort right now. Me getting called out for something or me getting called in for something is not as detrimental. It’s not as you know, like, harmful as the harm that I caused. And, and you’re right, like when you think about the traditional – like, isn’t it fascinating? And I know this is what you think about? Isn’t it fascinating that no matter what the job is, even if it’s not customer facing, even if it is quiet individual work, even if it’s highly technical work, that the process is still largely designed for highly extroverted people who can think quickly on their feet. Who can make eye contact, right? Like that is, that is something that (laughs) anytime, anytime the eye contact comment comes up, like, “I just you know, when somebody makes eye contact, I’m like, Cool.” Okay, let me talk to you. (laugh) Let me offer a perspective, as a neurodivergent person myself, right, you might notice that when I’m thinking, I actually look off and I looked down. It’s, it’s hard to make eye contact. And for some people, it’s painful. It is painful. So I’m like, so I guess here’s the thing that I ask is like, do you want eye contact? Or do you want someone to be comfortable and present with you? You know, and the whole the whole structure, which is why I love reading about how all of your candidates get all the questions, interview questions ahead of time, like, why does it need to be a pop test? Why does it need to be a like if we want somebody to bring their best selves forward, and and this is why I am so glad that I got introduced to you in your work, because not only that, but I remember – forgive me if I’m remembering this correctly or not. But I mean, you even ask questions around how has your racial identity impacted you? How has your, you know, your, just your identity and asking people to reflect on this? I mean, what an amazing, again, breaking the rules and going how do we create a process where people can show up in a way that feels good for them? And, and more and more people from a neurodiversity are coming to light because we understand it better. So instead of people feeling like they’re dumb, or there’s something wrong with them, or why can’t I? But I definitely I love that you’re talking about that. Because it it’s, it’s, you know, it’s like anything until you understand, until you have someone in your life, until you reach out, until you are seeking out information around people who are different than you. It’s so hard to understand. Like, when you’re tone policing, when you’re asking somebody to do you know, chit chat and retaliating against them because they don’t want to go to the bar. Right?
Ify Walker
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, go socialize afterwards. Hmm.
Ify Walker
Yeah, and it’s interesting to your point around those, some of those things. I mean, it’s why I was just so incredibly grateful for the people who’ve had to ask, right, and, and also for the people, going back to the power of observation, in watching people right who are extraordinary But who just need something different different than what’s being offered. So, yes, we do give everyone the questions in advance. I remember the first one, when we were first starting off, there was a CEO, we were working with one of our very first clients, and he was livid. He was livid when he found out that everyone had gotten the questions in advance. And I remember saying to him – He’s said, you shouldn’t, they should not have that in the questions. And I said, Well, why why? Why is that? And he said, well, because they’re going to be able to, you know, game the system, I said, but everyone got them. Everyone got them. So everyone is on equal. So what I what we started to pull apart was actually this idea, what was was really uncomfortable was like one, this idea of control. And two, this idea that everyone had gotten them. Right, that as opposed to easy, being able to call them up and say, you know, hey, what’s going on and learn, you know, sort of what we did when we were in, I remember, when I was in college, and the advice that I got, and I went to the W Madison, and you know, it’s huge, right? It’s a 40,000 person, institution. And the advice I got was to sit in the front row, always in every class and to always go to the TAs office no matter what, regardless of whether you had questions. And it was such a powerful lesson, because that’s where I literally got the answers to the test. And not because the TA was whipping out the test and reading off the questions, but because just by virtue of being in their presence, they were going to be talking about things. And I’d be asking for advice. And they are talking about the things that are top of mind for them. And so I’m taking notes, and if I’m in the front row of every class, I’m more likely to get called on so I’m more likely to get noticed, I’m more likely to get opportunities. And there’s all of these unspoken, unspoken rules. And so our quest has really been, how do we take what is implicit and make it explicit? How can we give everyone the same buddy treatment that we would give to our friends? Why doesn’t everyone know that they should go and talk to the TA right? I know, we can all sit at the front of the class. But how can we mimic a situation where everyone’s getting called on equally? Right? So that’s really been, if we can take the situations and the people that are the most marginalized and put them at the center and design for them. Everyone’s experience gets better. Right? And that’s the thing.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s, that, that is I feel like a point that so often, my eldest say, my fellow white folks and people in dominant positions miss. It’s like when you design, again, like, I’m not saying I want to just repeat what you said, like the most marginalized, everyone will benefit. It’s not, you know, it’s not giving some unfair advantage. But let’s also be real, the unfair advantage has existed for some people for the longest time. And, you know, and yeah, maybe that needs to change, you know, maybe it’s time. And the other thing that I was thinking about is, you know, part of it was, we’re just talking about this last night, like, as people who are in positions of power and authority, that using your term, like the buddies, like you, you have to constantly interrogate who’s in your in group and who’s in your out group, you have to, and you have to be, and I use the word interrogate super intentionally, like, you have to be willing to see it and to own it, and to, to try to improve it. Ify, I could talk to you all day.
Ify Walker
(laughs) And, you know what’s interesting Sarah, as you mentioned, that is that, you know, you probably are familiar with the research that, you know, the average white person knows one other black person. Like, that’s, you know, one, right? And that, that is sort of, I can’t think of a black person, in any level of leadership, where they would be able to say the same thing, you wouldn’t be able to be successful without it. And so what we like to say is that in some, in a lot of ways like, we actually know more about you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
We know more about you, and how the world operates than you could ever, like, that you know about us. Because of just virtual proximity and the opportunity to observe behaviors, and that can make people very uncomfortable. And so what we like to tell our clients is look like, you can’t, you can’t change who you are approximate or who you know, in the past, and we’re not asking, no one’s asking you to, but we can change who you know in the future. And part of that is getting, is having opportunities and experiences to, to be pushed. I remember one of our clients where, you know, it was a big CEO search and there was one you know, we’re working with a board, you know, all these hedge fund guys and there was one black woman who was on the board and we were getting down to the finalists and there was a, there was a black man and there was also an Asian American man. And you know, one of the board members said about the black man You know, I can’t. I know this guy looks good on paper. But I can’t help believing that all this experience is BS. And when the question was asked, you know, what evidence, what did you see or what did you hear? He couldn’t give any. And so this was someone who was just accustomed to speaking and being, and sort of having that be the truth. He was actually very uncomfortable with me asking this question, which was simply what did you hear? Or what did you see that leads to that conclusion? And he had nothing. And so the black woman on the board, she said, look, let’s just call it what it is.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
He does not present as a white guy. And you all are really deeply uncomfortable. And this Asian guy does. And that was also uncomfortable, right? This is what you’re more familiar with, you’ve seen more Asian men in your hedge funds and your whatever, you don’t have any proximity and so he doesn’t present as a white guy and this makes you uncomfortable. And they all laughed.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(inhales)
Ify Walker
And at the end of it, at the end of it, and to me, that was, it was real, actually was putting an unsaid thing a formally unspeakable thing, and speaking it, right? And they ended up hiring the Asian leader. And it was phenomenal, phenomenal, phenomenal guy. And they hired the right person, because the board members takeaway was that if they had hired this black leader, they would have sabotage them, they would have whether, whether intentionally or unintentionally, they would not have given him the support, and the cover that he would have needed in the way they would this other candidate. So they did hire the right person. And I raised this example, just to say, just to sort of peel back, what happens in these closed doors behind closed doors. And also acknowledging that some people might see that example as being unfair, I actually believe they hired the right person, because they do have to hire the person who they are actually going to support. And if they’re not prepared to support someone else, then that is actually doing a disservice to the organization and the leader. And that’s not always popular to say, but it’s almost as though they needed a bridge before they were willing to have a black leader in place. And now they do. And we’ve seen that trend. And that’s something that we’re also studying in a lot of these organizations that say that they want a leader of color is what is the pattern that we’re seeing of success? What are the trends that we’re seeing over time? And one of the ones that we’re seeing is that unless a black leader is sort of being groomed internally, that just coming in with no prior relationship with the board is almost a setup for failure. If they’re if they’re taking the baton from a white founder or a white leader. So I know that was a lot in there.
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, I –
Ify Walker
But those are the kind of questions I am studying.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, there was a part of me that’s like, it’s got to I mean, it was hard to hear, you know, it’s the reality. And it’s hard. It’s, it’s, it’s hard, you know, your point of, and they did hire the right person for them.
Ify Walker
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, like, not necessarily for the company, but for them. And –
Ify Walker
I would say for the company.
Sarah Noll Wilson
For the company. Okay. Yeah.
Ify Walker
Because that is the job of the board is that as as successful as a leader, the company will not be more successful than the leader is. So the right leader is the right decision for the company. And the right leader is the person that you will support. And this this sort of obsessive desire to hire a leader of color, it’s sort of this knee jerk, okay, then we’ve done the right thing we can sort of wipe our hands, I think is is sort of this counterintuitive, the intentions are right. But the outcomes are devastating in that you are not ready for that. Right? You’re not You’re not ready. And, and nobody wants to hear that. And what we’re not saying is, you’re a bad person, you’re this or that, we’re not labeling it. We’re just saying that the the change, the Delta is too big without other structural changes, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.
Ify Walker
If the board was being paid, and they only receive board compensation based on the success of, you know, certain number of leaders of color. Well, I think the behavior might change without a structural instrument. It’s asking too much of either party. The black leader to be super heroic. Which is devastating. Or the organization to overcome things they can’t even see overnight. That doesn’t work.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s yeah, absolutely. I mean, that’s one of the things that you know, we talked about in in other situations, but when the the gap is so large between where someone is and where they’re going, or when the expectations are much higher than the level of support has to match it. And the level of willingness has to match it and the structure has to match it. And, you know, gosh, we could do a whole conversation on the devastation that happens, because, I was just talking to somebody this morning about it, like the pattern, I’m sure there’s a name for it. But the pattern is so frickin common of we’re going to hire a person of color, typically, like a black woman, we’re going to hire a woman of color, we’re going to hire a black woman, we’re going to be in this honeymoon phase and look at us, and we’re gonna be really generous with you. And we’re going to be so it looks look at everything we’re doing. And then she starts and I know, I’m like, I’m not, you know, this, I’m just saying it for folks who might not be aware. So I want to be clear. I know I’m preaching to the… Like, right, and then and then they start challenging the system, and then they start speaking up, and then maybe they start pushing against the very person who allowed them quote, unquote, into the system. And then people get threatened and then they get defensive, and then somehow, right, the fault becomes that of the the black woman or the person of color. And then they’re worked out of the system. Like, what I was just talking to somebody like, What do you mean, it’s common? I was like, literally every week, every week, I have somebody I am talking to. And you know, and I’m like, it’s just shockingly common. You just don’t see it like that. And then the consequences are, right, the organization misses out but a lot of times then you end up questioning yourself, right? Like you can gaslight yourself to go, “Man, Did I do something? Was I not qualified?” And like, oh, yeah, we I mean that, that needs to be a whole nother conversation.
Ify Walker
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I also, just want to call back to one more quick thing. Do you have time? Can we like talk about five, ten more minutes?
Ify Walker
Yeah. Of course.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I want to go back real quickly to that, to that idea of you all know us better. That, that is such a, that is such a truth that was a painful realization for me. And, and in, and it was, ah, white women, what you don’t know about your racism and how to do better. It’s a book that’s out. I can’t think of the author’s right now I get my anxiety about names. Anyway, we’ll tag it in the notes.
Ify Walker
It’s all right. It’s all right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But they, the way, the way they said it was, you know, how you’re acutely aware of what men are doing at all times, from a place of survival. You know how you are paying attention to them? You know how you are aware of who’s safe, and who might not be safe? They know all of that, and how you know men’s behavior more than they know themselves. That’s how we view you. And I just remember being like, fuck me, like, okay, got it.
Ify Walker
(laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
And you know, and a colleague of mine, a new colleague of mine, we were talking and she was like, I can speak multiple languages. And I’m not talking languages, I’m talking like, you know, and that’s just, I just want to like, I want to make sure that that didn’t get rolled over, because that’s so important too.
Ify Walker
Yeah, I appreciate it. It’s funny. It’s funny, because I was just in, I was just in Guyana, over the weekend, and there was this, I was traveling with my son. And it was the funniest thing. So and I, when I tried to do a lot of like verbal, for him a lot of verbal, verbalization of what’s happening in sort of real time. And so we were all lining up to come home to get to it, we had to take a couple of couple flights. And there’s long line. And it’s not, it’s in a different country. It’s not it’s not the same setup as sort of here. And so they’re calling. So this guy like, steps out of the line. And not, not a white guy, was just he steps out of the line, he walks to the front. And there had been this white guy who stood out, right? Because it’s like this very diverse group of people who are leaving Guyana. And as soon as I saw this first guy walked to the front, and it looked like he knew something that maybe the rest of us didn’t. I said to my son, he’s gonna step on a line. And he’s not gonna be able to handle the fact (laughs) it’s, he’s not gonna be able to handle the fact that someone walked up further than he was. And he’s gonna step out of line and watch what he’s gonna do. And so we watched and he stepped on the line. He looks ahead, and then he starts mouthing to the, I mean, like, this line is long, to the person like I, you know, I should, you know, come to the front and he walks himself to the front. He somehow gets ahead, maybe he had a certain whatever but it was just so classic.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yes.
Ify Walker
So textbook, right? And so my son’s like, how do you know? And I remember thinking the same thing about my parents where they would articulate something to be like, Oh my God, you’re so jaded. And I said, I told you it was gonna happen. And it did. No one else moves from this line. Everybody else waited to follow instructions. But I knew he was going to step out. He was going to force his way, as soon as he saw someone do it, it was over. Right? And so it was that sort of thing where there’s just an awareness.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Ify Walker
Of line cutting and who’s going to step outside and who’s gonna make certain assumptions that even just a basic thing, like traveling, constantly aware, right? And we see those dynamics at work. And it’s not just I want to be really clear, because it’s gonna sound like, Oh, we’re just jumping on white men. It’s across the board, right, in terms of how that, how that, how that plays out. And that’s something now that I’ve moved back to the Midwest, as an adult. I am now seeing things I did not understand as a child.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure. Yeah.
Ify Walker
As I’m exploring different friendships. And that’s been really interesting. Right? And, you know, it plays out at work as well.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And it’s not, I mean, like, and on some level, sometimes, you know, white women can be even more deadly and devastating. Because while we experience our own forms of oppression, there’s a clinging to the power that we have. And I mean, again, another conversation we could get into. Ify. I would be remiss if I didn’t ask you the question that we ask all of our new guests, and I have no doubt that if you will have us, we would have you back in a heartbeat.
Ify Walker
I would love to come back.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I can, I can already tell Nick is gonna come on and be like, Oh, you are really good. What was, what was a conversation you had with yourself or with someone else that was transformative for you?
Ify Walker
Hmm. So most recently, as the most transformative conversation I’ve had with myself, was the recognition that a couple years ago, I experienced the what I like to call the work twisties. Right? And, you know, the, you know, the twisties were sort of been known for a long time. But I think more recently, when Simone Biles stepped out of the Olympics and really said to the world, I need to take care of myself, and I don’t need permission to save my own life. That really stuck with, that really stuck with me. And I don’t think we as a society, have learned or put language around what it means to lose your sense of positioning and place and protection in life, and normalize that life and growth as a founder, as an executive, as somebody who works and contributes in society is not always up and over to the right, right? And that we can experience that and that there’s a lot of forgiveness, there, initially, there’s a lot of blame, like you’re weak because you are experiencing these things. But to be able to have the softness to say like, to anyone who is experiencing the work twisties, to anyone who is feeling a sense of confusion, or a loss of sense of self. That, you know, you and I wrote about this, like, you are likely feeling lost, but you won’t be forever, right? And to say gently, like all is as it should be, and you will find your way again. I think that was probably the most transformative conversation that I’ve had with myself. It was, I think, very much a bridging from one stage of life to another one. And I think for a lot of us, that happens when we lose a parent, and we realize, oh, the baton has really passed. Right? And I’m, I’m in a different stage right now. And so that’s probably had the most profound impact for me in the last five, five or so years.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that.
Ify Walker
Of course.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Ify. You’re just, you’re great. You’re so great.
Ify Walker
Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I’m so grateful that we were able to be in conversation. For people who are interested in connecting with you or companies who are interested in potentially partnering with you. What’s the best way for them to connect with you?
Ify Walker
Yeah, they can check us out at www dot Offor dot co. And that’s O F as in Frank, F as in Frank, O, R as in Robert dot co. So come check us out there or you can follow me on LinkedIn at Ify Walker.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Which I highly recommend. Yeah, and we’ll we’ll be sure to by tag both of those links in the show notes. Thank you so much.
Ify Walker
Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a delight.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Likewise.
Our guest this week has been Ify Walker. And boy, is there so much that I’m taking from this. You know the one thing that I’m chewing on was that really powerful metaphor that she shared at the beginning of if we all looked at a pond, and we saw that fish were dying, we would say what’s in the water? And yet we don’t do that in the workplace. Damn, that’s just really powerful. And that’s going to stay with me for a long time. And as always, my friends, we want to hear from you, we love hearing from you. What resonated, what came up for you? How are you thinking differently as a result of this conversation? You can always shoot me an email at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com, where I read and respond personally to every message we get. And if you liked today’s episode, and you want to support us, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us be able to increase our exposure so we can have incredible conversations like the one we did today with Ify. And if you haven’t become a patron yet, it might be time. Your financial support will go support the team that makes this show possible. You can go to patreon dot com slash conversations on conversations where you will get ad free episodes early and some pretty great swag as well.
Speaking of the team that you’d be supporting, let’s give them some love. Our producer Nick Wilson, our sound editor Drew Noll, our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo crew. Thank you so much. And just a big final wholehearted thank you to Ify Walker, for giving us her time and her insights and wisdom. Well, this my friends wraps up another episode of Conversations on Conversations. Remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So till next week, please be sure to rest, rehydrate and I’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.