Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Rachel Formaro as they share their personal journeys of entrepreneurship, with a focus on the ways that intentionality and purpose can shape workplace culture and foster growth.
Rachel Formaro is the CEO at Blu Pagoda LLC, a company she founded in 2014. With more than 20 years of both corporate and agency experience, Rachel is known for her creativity, compassion, and commitment to ensuring success for both clients and consultants, while having a positive impact on her community. Prior to starting Blu Pagoda, Rachel was a Managing Director with Charles Schwab for almost 15 years. Before joining Schwab, Rachel started and ran a small advertising agency in Toronto, Canada. Rachel attended the University of Toronto, where she earned a BA in English and History, and holds a post-graduate certificate in Market Research Analysis. Outside of her work at Blu Pagoda, Rachel prioritizes her family, community, and well-being. In addition to being a mom and wife, she is an active volunteer and board member— Rachel is currently on the board at the Chrysalis Foundation for Women and Girls.
- LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/rachelformaro
- Website: www.blupagoda.com
- 12 Principles for Prototyping a Feminist Business by Jennifer Armbrust: www.sister.is
- Holstee Manifesto: www.holstee.com/pages/manifesto
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I am your host Sarah Noll Wilson, and joining me today is my new local friend Rachel Formaro. Rachel Formaro is the CEO of Blu Pagoda LLC, a consulting and communications company that she founded in 2014. With more than 20 years of both corporate and agency experience, Rachel is known for her creativity, her compassion and commitment to ensuring success for both clients and consultants while having a positive impact on her community. Prior to starting Blu Pagoda, Rachel was a managing director with Charles Schwab for almost 15 years. Before joining Schwab, Rachel started and ran a small advertising agency in Toronto, Canada. Rachel attended the University of Toronto, where she earned a BA in English and history and holds a postgraduate certificate in market research analysis. Outside of her work at Blu Pagoda, Rachel prioritizes, her family, community and well being and in addition to being a mom and a wife, she’s an active volunteer and board member. She is currently on the board at the Chrysalis Foundation for Women and Girls. Welcome to the show, Rachel.
Rachel Formaro
Thank you, Sarah. So glad to be here with you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, excited. What else do you want people to know about you? However you want to answer that.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah. I mean, I am really passionate about advocacy and – for women and girls, specifically, but also just humans at large. I have been a longtime volunteer with Moms Demand Action For Gun Sense in America. I lost a friend and client to gun violence, gosh, about five, five or six years ago now. And so that’s another passion area for me is gun violence prevention. But yeah, and a dual citizen as well. I became a citizen of the United States in 2019. So I did emigrate to to the US in the early aughts, I think we call them?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughs)
Rachel Formaro
So I’ve been kind of living the the, the immigrant experience as a green card holder, and now as a new citizen as well. So, and that was quite a journey. Remember, you know, memorizing 200 flashcards for my immigration interview was was, I guess, an achievement also. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s, you know, I mean, we, a lot of us might not be able to answer those questions.
Rachel Formaro
Sure. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s, okay, that’s interesting. Some, you know, someday maybe we explore the gun advocacy thing. You know, I know, that’s not what we were planning on talking about today. But I remember seeing that in your video. And that’s something is, unfortunately, it’s a very American challenge.
Rachel Formaro
Right, right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That we’re struggling with. Though, for those of you who are listening, Rachel and I, our paths crossed because we were both nominated as finalists for an event called the Inspiring Women of Iowa, which was fun to get to meet just amazing people.
Rachel Formaro
Definitely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So okay, so Rachel, I like take us back. What, what, what was your what’s your journey? And again, I want to say this sincerely, congratulations on 10 years of owning your business, –
Rachel Formaro
Oh, thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Because we know that, you know, most companies don’t make it past year three, or four. And so to to be a decade in is pretty, pretty amazing.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah. And thank you for that. In fact, I did, when we turned three, I did write a blog post about that, because your three is one of those milestones. Where, I can’t remember the exact statistical number from the Small Business Administration, but it’s, it’s a high percentage, that that don’t make it past that point. And especially as a woman owned business as well, just another thing that I’m really proud of, to be turning this this 10 year anniversary. So, my journey around entrepreneurship, my parents had emigrated from England to Canada when I was a child. My dad always very entrepreneurial, both my parents. I grew up watching them have things like a coffee shop that was also an art gallery while my dad was also you know, a Xerox photocopier salesman.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Rachel Formaro
He just, I just could remember my mom making croissants at like 5 am in the morning for the coffee shop and me as a very reluctant, awkward teenager being you know, charged with working at the coffee shop for maybe two times. It became a quick realization that I should not be serving people in a coffee shop.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Rachel Formaro
But yeah, so I mean really kind of grew up in an entrepreneurial family. And again, I think as, as immigrants to Canada that I think there’s even is a statistic out there that immigrants are more likely to start businesses when –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Rachel Formaro
Upon landing in a new country. And so, I grew up around that, went to college, and my college jobs were either in retail, but also in advertising. I was, back in the day, what you might have called a Girl Friday in advertising. (laughter) So that meant to be growing up in that environment, like late 80s, early 90s, was really interesting. Just got exposure to all kinds of different avenues as far as people and work. And really kind of had a knack for it. Started out on the creative side, but, but I really enjoy people, I like you, love hearing people’s stories, and connecting with others. And that kind of pivoted me more towards like account management, as they call it, in advertising. And so I started my first advertising company on my own in my late 20s. Because one of the things I realized working at an agency, I worked at a lot of good agencies, but there was still kind of not as much of control over your own destiny, which was just kind of part of what I grew up with. And so that was the first time I started a company was was back in my 20s. And I guess, for me, a lot of people say, Oh, my gosh, it’s so risky. Like even when I started a company. When did I start? I guess? I guess I was in my early 40s. No, yeah. When I started Blu Pagoda.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I think you wrote forty-four.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Which I love.
Rachel Formaro
And so even to start a company at that age, people were like, oh, that’s so risky, but for me, the way I’m made, I’m like, Oh, it’s so risky to be like, have someone else (laughs) like in charge, destiny? You know, like, ultimately, yes, I have clients that are somewhat in charge of my destiny, but it’s still a different feeling, you know. So it’s just, again, I think people are just kind of made, made differently. But I have really kind of embraced the side of, of being a business owner.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s a, my accountant once said, I mean, who better to take a risk on? Who better to bet on than yourself, right? Like, that was a really good point. What, I’m curious knowing that you spent some time building a company in your late 20s, and then again, in your early 40s, and now you’ve been running it for 10 years? What? How are those two experiences different? Like, what did you do differently? The second time around? Yes, I think about that, of like, Oh, if I, if I ever start another one, I’ll be able to hit the ground running way faster. (laughs) Some of the stuff.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah, I think, I think experience comes into play a lot. Like just, and also what I am willing to do. The first time as an entrepreneur in my 20s I would work like crazy hours, I would be stressing like nobody’s business, would take on any project just to kind of keep it, keep it going. And I mean, ultimately, what happened there, it was a profitable business, I ended up, one of my clients at the time was acquired by a large US company, and so I was hired by that large US company to integrate the brand into Canada, and then was eventually invited to move to their mothership in San Francisco as an employee. So really, it’s interesting, I’ve only ever had like one client side job. And I did that for almost 15 to 20 years before, like I said, getting that itch again to start something. But I’d say this time around, I was more thoughtful about it. To the point where I was really fortunate to be working for a wonderful woman in my corporate role and I was able to have a really honest conversation with her. I’m like, you know what, I’m ready to do something new. I’ve been doing the same role at this company for eight years. I’m ready to do something. It was great company. I would, I knew in my heart that I would only move on from it if it was to start something of my own.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Rachel Formaro
And so I was able to very thoughtfully leave that company as an employer, over a period of time, save up some some cushion funding so I wouldn’t be completely stressed out about taking on a first client. And so I think starting in my 40s, versus in my 20s, was just the amount of thoughtfulness about it. And and still like, the intention around it as well. I feel like in my 20s, it was to kind of escape an environment that I didn’t feel I was flourishing in versus being intentionally starting something.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, no, that makes a ton of sense. And I can imagine how that’s, you know, one. Yeah, like, wanting to lean into it versus escaping from something has a very different, different feels. Well, one of the things when we asked about potential topics for us to explore that I thought was interesting was this idea that business can be healing.
Rachel Formaro
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I’m just curious to hear more about that because, you know, and whether you own your own business, or you’re working for someone else, work takes a huge chunk –
Rachel Formaro
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
A huge chunk of our life and has a huge impact on our health, our mental health, our physical well being, our longevity. So, yeah, I’m just curious to like, tease that out for me a little bit.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah. And I have to give a hat tip to Jennifer Armbrust at sister dot is. I somehow magically came across Jennifer’s work. She wrote a document around 12 principles for prototyping a feminist business. And –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Wait! Okay, wait, –
Rachel Formaro
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What was her name? I want to (laughs) –
Rachel Formaro
Jennifer Armbrust. A R M B R U S T. And the, her company is called Sister and the website is Sister dot I S and she wrote almost what I call, like a little bit of a manifesto. And one of them was a business can be a healing, and that just really stuck with me. And another little kind of artifact in my life as well. I don’t know if you can see it on my wall. But this is called the Holstee Manifesto.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay.
Rachel Formaro
And, again, words that I like to surround myself with, and that, you know, have helped me develop my path. So definitely a hat tip to Jennifer and to the Holstee folks. But the whole idea of like you said, like work is so much a part of our lives. And how do we make it more, more about flourishing, and more inclusive? And just something that is something that fills us versus draining us? You know, my, my, my newly teen daughter, we talk about what are the things that fill you versus that drain you? And so that’s, it came with that intentionality of wanting to create something like that. And one of the first steps was when I started Blu Pagoda was I started as a virtual company working from home back in 2014.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Ahead of the, you were ahead of you time.
Rachel Formaro
Right. Right. And part of that was coming out of my anxiety closet. As an early, in my childhood, I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, I don’t like to think of it as a disorder but anyways, that’s what it is. But I had a hard time with commuting and being in crowded spaces and and so that’s that was one of my first things was was starting it in a way that worked for me environmentally, and then kind of naturally attracted others that that kind of felt the same way.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. What has that looked like in practice because that’s something that we’re really passionate about not only in the work we’re doing with clients but even as we build this company is how do we create a company for humans. Because when you think about, again, speaking from an American capitalism perspective, also like most company has been built by and for men.
Rachel Formaro
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And and like a certain type of man like let’s also be clear, right?
Rachel Formaro
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
A certain type of man both in you know, looks and and style and aggression and, right? Like we’re gonna burn the midnight oil and we’re going to do all this and and what does it look like to build it differently? Right? What does it look like to lead differently from a more feminine perspective? I’m curious, I’m curious to hear, you know, as you as you are creating your company and trying to do it differently, what were the, what were the, how do I want to say this? Like, what were the things you kind of had to continually push against? And let me explain it? Like, I feel like I have to continually push against this deep seated hustle messaging, right?
Rachel Formaro
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, you even mentioned that, like, I’m finally taking my two week vacation and, right, and this is happening. So I’m curious for you, what were, what were those common points of friction that would pop up and you wouldn’t even realize it and then you’re like, Ah, no, that’s not what I want.
Rachel Formaro
Oh, my goodness. The first one is productivity. Like, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, yeah!
Rachel Formaro
Like, I, I have, and it’s taken me a long time. It’s really only just recently that even on a weekend, I can be okay with sitting and reading a magazine, and not in the back of my head going, I could be productive right now.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Rachel Formaro
Like, whether that productivity is studying for a course, or reading a business book, or, you know, something that feels, makes me feel like I’m achieving something, being productive. So I think that is such an ingrained factor into our work culture, is that you must be productive at all times kind of idea. What’s interesting as well, I think there’s some parallels with when I became a mother as well. And I mean, I can, I was still a corporate employee when I, when I first became a mother, and I can remember, like, hopefully, this is not gonna be too TMI for your audience.
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, no such thing.
Rachel Formaro
But just, you know, putting up newspaper print on my glass windows, so that I could pump breast milk in the office. And then like, only the other people that I would call while I’m pumping are my co-workers that I knew were also pumping. And so I just, I had a moment like, what am I doing? (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Again, the workforce wasn’t built for all types of people. I mean, it’s come a long way,
Rachel Formaro
It has come a long way.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s come a long way, and.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah, but also, again, I really appreciate my employer, they they did have set up a pumping room and all that kind of stuff. They were doing the best that they knew how, in that capitalist, male driven environment.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Formaro
But again, I was like, if and when. And it turned out to be a when I was going to start a business. I was, I was definitely going to focus on doing things differently. But, but the productivity part is so ingrained, it’s really hard to let go of, for any of us.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. It. It’s so – what do I want to say? Like pernicious.
Rachel Formaro
It is.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s so deep seated. You might actually appreciate this definition of productivity. We were interviewing, a few months ago we had a woman, her name is Alexis Haselberger, and she’s in the, she’s on the coast. She’s in San Francisco. And she’s a productivity expert. And, and, and it’s interesting, though, because she goes that people hear that, and they think it’s about like, how do we do more with less? Or how do we, right, like, make our time? And her definition of productivity is did I do what I intended to do?
Rachel Formaro
I love that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Did I intend to sit and relax and enjoy my, then that’s been productive. Did I intend to, you know, spend time with my husband or my wife or my, right, kids, then that’s being productive. And that was such a gift for me, because that’s something that I’ve, you know, Nick is listening to this. And I feel like I’ve finally gotten to a point of being okay that like, No, it’s okay, that I take a nap. And it’s okay, that I, it’s okay, that I am not, you know, burning the midnight oil all the time. In fact, I shouldn’t be any of the time.
Rachel Formaro
No.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like, it’s just not healthy for you. But it is just so it’s so sneaky.
Rachel Formaro
It is –
Sarah Noll Wilson
How it exists.
Rachel Formaro
It is. I mean, even with the back in the Blackberry, remember the Blackberry?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, god, yeah, man. We’re really like dating ourselves. (laughter)
Rachel Formaro
But I can remember like, I was managing a team of folks at my corporate job. And I remember they were, you know, I had a couple of people like, Oh, can I can I please get approved to have a Blackberry? Because the level I was in the corporation, like we had to have Blackberries.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Rachel Formaro
And I remember saying, like, are –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh wait, and just for the kids who are listening, for the young people. This is, this was pre iPhone. This was the only device that you can answer emails from.
Rachel Formaro
Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, a little bit of history there. But I remember like, folks on my team asking me like, can I get approved for a Blackberry? And I’m like, Are you sure you want that?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Rachel Formaro
Like before you asked me to approve a Blackberry for you. That’s that was like creating a tether.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.
Rachel Formaro
A 24/7. tether to your job. And again, in that culture it was, and it still is, like how, you know, I’m demonstrating to my employer that I’m really good because I’m available at all times. And that expectation is just so loaded. And, you know, I, I was right there with it. I fell for it too. But I mean, it, it still exists today. I mean, I was I was having a conversation, conversation with our talent manager. And we’re piloting right now a 32 hour work week –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Nice.
Rachel Formaro
With the senior manager on our team. And I’m like, Maria, how’s that going? And she’s like, it’s – so her her day, her week, her work week is Tuesday through Friday. And since it’s a pilot, whenever we check in, and like, how’s it going for you? And she’s like, well, it’s good. But I’m, I’m still getting notifications on Monday, when someone mentions me in Slack or something, I’m like, well turn off the notification, you know, like, like, let’s talk about how you do that. And so, and again, it’s like that tether idea, like, we have to turn off this thing and, and make sure that you are setting up that boundary, because otherwise it’s not a successful pilot if she’s still getting applications from work on her Monday.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Right. Right. And again, like, that’s part of the reframing. You know, we, we’ve been, like, 30 to 32 hours for full time from the get go. Not necessarily for me. You know, when you’re the business owner it’s a little bit different.
Rachel Formaro
Yep, I understandable.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But I’m in a much better place, but it’s, uh, like, that’s, it’s a big shift. But I will say what we’re doing differently, because I love the 4 day work week. I mean, personally, I would love to get to three and a half days, and then you have three and a half days on three and a half days off.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I don’t know that that’s realistic with how we’re set up. But, but it’s a, it’s a transition for people.
Rachel Formaro
It is.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right? To trust that if I turn off those notifications on Monday, that that’s not going to negatively impact me. And then there is like the work you have to do to make sure then that you’re not imposing imposing that subconscious belief on on her, whatever that is.
Rachel Formaro
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, like, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Remind me how many people are on your team again?
Rachel Formaro
So we have four core employees on our team. And then we have a community of between 50 to 60 independent contractors.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Wow!
Rachel Formaro
Who are consultants and I’ve chosen that consultant path as we call it. Because we are project based with our clients.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah, that’s yeah, that’s fascinating. What you know, like, what’s something that you’ve always wanted to try as you think about creating a company for humans? What, what’s something you always wanted to try but you haven’t yet?
Rachel Formaro
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What’s something that where you’re like, when someday when I own the company? Or maybe yeah, I’m just curious.
Rachel Formaro
Well, funny enough, this just came up on a call with a couple of our consultants because I’m actually going to be going out to San Francisco where we have a number of our consultants and our clients. And as much as, I mean we all love being a virtual company, it is allowed us to bring on independent contractors who may not have had access to the same types of project opportunities. We have folks that are neurodiverse, or previously in employment roles were dealing with micro aggressions every day. So we love being a virtual company. But and also there’s something amazing about in person human connection, and my dream is to put together a retreat.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah!
Rachel Formaro
For everyone in our community to be together in person, something that is family friendly, ability friendly, like all the things. So that is on my business owner bucket list.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it.
Rachel Formaro
To do an amazing retreat of some kind.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I love that. You know, you got to put it out in the universe. Start making it happen. I just said something similar. I’m I was like, I’m gonna bring together all these amazing people that we have in our orbit.
Rachel Formaro
Yes!
Sarah Noll Wilson
And let’s just learn from each other.
Rachel Formaro
Yes!
Sarah Noll Wilson
And just like be better together and all of that –
Rachel Formaro
Yeah, but, but like not one of those kind of onerous conferencing type things, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yes! Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Formaro
Something that is, that is you human affirming. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah! (laughter)
Rachel Formaro
What a thought. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
What, how would you define human affirming? I think that’s an interesting, that’s an interesting phrasing.
Rachel Formaro
Just like you know, again, that’s something that works for where people are at. And even if it is a hybrid model, maybe there are some people that just are introvert friendly as well, like, who wants to have a grueling eight hour in person in your face group thing the entire day? let’s have a space where someone can retreat and just, you know, sit and read a book for a bit. So and just be able to, to turn off for a little bit versus being constantly on. So I would love to see something like that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. How has your business been healing for you?
Rachel Formaro
Oh, boy. It has. It has allowed me to grow as a person. It has given me the space that I’ve needed to process grief. I lost my dad. It’ll be two years this September. And my dad, again, big inspiration, both he and my mom. But my dad, a fellow business owner, he had, gosh, started and run at least six companies over the duration of his career. And, and losing him after, you know, five year battle with cancer, again, whenever you lose someone, whether they’re sick, or it’s unexpected, it’s hard. He went downhill pretty quickly at the end there. But I was, I was so grateful that the company was at a point where everyone was like, Rachel, we got this. Check out for as long as you need to. Even clients, as well, you know. And again, I think grief and loss is not something we talk about enough in a work environment and being a Gen Xer. And a lot of my consultants are Gen Xers. We’re all going through that right now. Our parents are of a certain age where either they need care, or we’ve experienced loss in the last five years. We’ve talked about it. And we’ve talked about how to process loss. Sorry, heard of that Canadian in their process.
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, that’s okay. I know you say process all day long. We got a lot of Canadian friends that we work with. And I always love it. (laughs)
Rachel Formaro
Yes, yes. So I mean, just that is part of the healing in a work environment where we’re able to talk about it, acknowledge it, not brush it under the carpet, like, I feel like we need to do more of that of acknowledge life and loss as colleagues as clients together. So, so that is, that that for me was a really big moment two years ago.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, sure. What was, what was his name?
Rachel Formaro
My dad’s name Paul, Paul Bates.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Paul. Okay. I always just like to hear. Well, I’m so sorry that you lost him.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah, thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I was talking to somebody and they’re like, it’s hard because it’s like you lose a Northstar.
Rachel Formaro
You do, you really do. And you just find new ways to move forward with grief. But I think it’s made me a better business owner and a better human for being able to acknowledge that experience. Other ways it’s been a healing? Having my family involved as well. I want to acknowledge that one of the first employees that I established next to me in the company was my husband.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay! Yes!
Rachel Formaro
Stole him from Wells Fargo.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughs)
Rachel Formaro
Thank you, Wells Fargo.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Rachel Formaro
So, so he, he, he is in our CFO role, and he’s a real kind of check and balance for me. Again, he’s not a risk taker. And, but it’s, it’s having having my family involved as well has has an interesting way, it’s been a healing as well.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah. It is something I mean, you know, like a couple of things that I want to just reflect on is you know, first when you talk about human affirming, it’s all the, all the things we experienced as humans and so often we just well here’s here’s your one day of bereavement.
Rachel Formaro
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Here’s your three day and only for people who are, fit these roles. When it’s like family looks so different, and there’s chosen family and there’s, and and like and how do we you know, something we talk about a lot is just that like being okay that there might be some weeks where we just don’t have it in us –
Rachel Formaro
Absolutely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and so someone else steps in.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And then when they’re struggling, we step into their place. Instead of it being this like rigid, you have to work this many hours or you have to produce this many widgets. And I recognize that that’s a something we’re fortunate to have that flexibility –
Rachel Formaro
Absolutely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s not true of all organizations, but, and it is, I’m curious, like, you know, hearing you talk about being able to include your family on it, you know, not everyone wants to work with their family. (laughs)
Rachel Formaro
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I get it. But, but also, there’s something really cool about, I have found there’s something really cool. And I’m curious how this aligns with your experience, to create something that can have an impact on the people who I love most, you know. Even if people are supporting part time or from a contracting perspective, it’s really neat to go hey, let’s like, like, I’m building this come along for the ride and help me make it better.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah, I, I, I could not agree more. I so appreciate the fact that I get to work with family, and non family, all people I love. There are some consultants I’ve been working with for so long, they are friends. And it is, I’ll try not to get weepy, but to be able to say,
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, you can. We are very pro weepy here. So you just lean into those tears.
Rachel Formaro
I mean, just to be able to say there are some consultants that when we hang out, we say I love you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Rachel Formaro
And these are not family members. And I know that sounds. For anyone in HR who might be listening, that might be somewhat creepy. It’s not a creepy, I love you. It is just –
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s respect to you. I love you.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah, I appreciate you. And being able to work with people that you know, are dear friends. Why not work with people that you care about?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right!
Rachel Formaro
Why not? I mean, how many, I can’t remember, is it 4000 weeks? What’s that book that we generally have on the planet?
Sarah Noll Wilson
4000 weeks.
Rachel Formaro
Like why why not spend time with people that you really respect and care about and want to spend time with? And, you know, there’s there’s certainly a flip side, a darker side to family businesses that I’m sure we’ve all seen and observed in the media. But there’s there is there is some good in it as well. And I think as, growing up again, observing my dad, I think, I mean, all of my sisters, I have two sisters, younger sisters. We all kind of figured out almost subconsciously, if we wanted to spend time with dad, it was going to be working with him. So we all did at some point, work with him. So and so it enriched us. It didn’t it didn’t take something away from us.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And that well, and it builds up some self efficacy. And there is something about, you know, when you build something that can have impact, whether it’s a product, whether it’s a service, whatever it is, it’s, it’s so neat to be, to be able to look at something go like we built that.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Or I build that. Like that’s, that’s been a really fun part of our evolution of just having more people involved. And like, Yeah, I’m up on stage, but you helped create the handouts, right? Like you put together the proposal, and you created the video. And, and there is something about that, that you – I know, for me anyway, and I don’t know if this, maybe you didn’t feel this way in your corporate experience, but I worked in insurance. Insurance just did nothing for my soul.
Rachel Formaro
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, (laughter) it wasn’t like I left home, I really made sure that that agent got his money, you know. (laughter)
Rachel Formaro
Yeah, no, and that is interesting. I mean, one of the things that, you know, you can poke holes in anything. I mean, we, our prime client space is financial services.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, sure.
Rachel Formaro
Okay, and we’re not saving lives. Props to all the people saving lives. It’s not something that I can do. But I, what I do value, and what we do, and it’s part of our mission, is to help people sleep better at night. Even if that is someone working at a financial services company, they’re still human beings.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rachel Formaro
And they’re people that we care about, like, you know, like, does the world need another checking account? Maybe, maybe not. But I really care about the people that are working on those things, and, and for our consultants as well for them to be able to feel like they’re doing meaningful work, and the ways that we have been able to have an impact in our community. Like every last Tuesday of the month at our company is Giving Tuesday. We do a match on all donations that week.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, I love that!
Rachel Formaro
We’re very keyed to –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Wait, wait, wait! Say more. What does that look like in practice? Because I remember that was part of your video, but it didn’t go into that kind of detail.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah, so I guess when I even when I started the company and it was just me like we we started off as a 1% for the planet company. And so that means 1% of revenue goes to nonprofits with a focus on our mother planet Earth. And then as we grew, we started to pivot into other ways of, of giving back. And, and so a lot of like, our little internal programs, like whether it’s someone celebrating a work anniversary with us, we’ll say, Okay, pick the charity of your choice, we’re gonna give money to them. Or we, if folks want to recognize one another for great work or helping out, they can nominate someone to get a match on a donation. So the last, the last Tuesday of every month, folks can, on our team, in our community, can nominate a nonprofit, and we’ll do up to $1,000 match every month.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Nice.
Rachel Formaro
And so that that has has been important to us, it has exposed us to a number of different nonprofit organizations across the country, because our folks are across the country. And being able to align with different causes that are important to our team. You know, whether that is causes around autism, or LGBTQ+ or reproductive rights and freedom, I mean, it’s just, it’s opened up our, our, our world and our connections to things that we maybe not have seen were we not doing those types of activities.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that. What are? I mean, you know what I love about that is that it’s like, it’s so simple, manageable and impactful.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, you know, and like you said, you’re getting exposed, and likely those organizations are, you know, getting people who are learning about them.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, now I have to ask the question, what, like, what are the other little things you’re doing? Because, because, I mean, we have a lot of people in HR who listen to, to this, we have a lot of people in leadership, and sometimes I think we can overcomplicate how to create a community based organization. And so I’m curious, like, what are some of the other things? What are some of the things you’re really proud of that you’re doing as an organization?
Rachel Formaro
Oh my gosh, I’m one of the biggest is Courageous Conversations. Once a month, and this was a little brainstorm. There’s a wonderful woman on our team, Valencia Gibson. She is based out of Arizona. She’s one of our project management consultants. But in addition to being a wonderful project manager, she has a passion for diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. And so we, in addition to the project works for, that she does for her clients, we have hired Valencia to run some of our internal DEIB programs. And so we were talking one day, like, wouldn’t it be nice if, and she came up with this idea of courageous conversations where once a month, we get all of our consultants together, it’s, of course, optional. They’re independent contractors, they, they have sovereignty over what they want to spend their time on. But we offer this courageous conversation where we take a difficult topic, and we talk about it as a team, and we share our feelings and how can we make things better? I mean, we have covered topics like micro aggression in the workplace. We have covered topics like health care, and why is health care different for people based on your skin color, or your orientation? We have talked, taken topics like defunding the police, after George Floyd. And so we take really interesting, challenging topics to talk about in a group, we create a psychologically safe space for that. And it is, I kid you not, one of the best hours of my entire month. It is so inspiring to me. And it’s inspiring to me that we have a community of our consultants and our employees that are up for this, that are up for it and want to actively change the narrative around things that we’re seeing in the world. So I get a little passionate about it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, I’m again, don’t ever apologize for that. One of the things that’s striking me is, I really appreciate how you use the word community, because it can be so easy when people are working with, you know, people who might be in a contracting position. Like we call them our strategic partners, right? And these are strategic partners. And, but it’s so easy for companies to treat contractor so transactionally
Rachel Formaro
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and I’m, I’m I know, it’s very intentional, the language you’re using, and also and also including them. I mean, that’s the other thing. So, I love this, because, you know, you’re a few years ahead of me. And so it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s fun to hear about what you’re doing. And, and, and not and not playing by the rules of like, well, no, you only invest in your W-2 employees, and they’re the only ones who get these opportunities, like, not every job is going to be full of people who are employed in a certain way.
Rachel Formaro
Absolutely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And we all can benefit from it. What? What has the response been to the larger community? Because I would imagine, you know, people who come to work with you are, you know, because they know you, they know your values, they know what you’re passionate about, what kind of impact that, you know, it’s likely people who are drawn to similar, but I would imagine that sometimes that’s not always the case around certain topics and like, and how and how do you navigate that?
Rachel Formaro
Yeah. Well, it’s interesting, we have had over the last 10 years, once a while a can, potential consultant will come to us. And usually the reason that they they don’t want to stick to it is more about the risk of being an independent contractor versus being an employee. So I’ve had people say, Rachel, I, I need to be around people all day long in an office, I’m like, okay, yeah, I’m glad. I’m glad that you had this experience. And you learn that, no problem. And I still stay in touch with those, you know, those people, a couple of individuals who were like, Hey, I really discovered I really need to be around, physically around people, I’m like, I totally get that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Or I need the structure.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah. Or I need the structure, or I need to know that I’m getting a paycheck, you know, every two weeks. I totally understand that. There have been cases where, especially early on, where I have decided not to continue with the client, because their values didn’t align with us. So that, that has been been challenging. And then even just being able, working with clients to understand sometimes what it’s like to work with, maybe some non traditional working styles. I mentioned neuro diversity, we have several folks on our team who have ADHD or just think differently. And we leveraged that as much as possible as a strength for them. But sometimes it’s not always what a client is going to expect from somebody.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure, yeah.
Rachel Formaro
And so it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a delicate situation at times. I have to laugh because I think, I don’t know if they they did this in the US. But when I was in high school, they did these vocational propensity type tests, like, what should you be when you grow up?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.
Rachel Formaro
And mine was like, journalist and international diplomacy. And I have to say, like, there must be something around international diplomacy, because I feel like whatever skill that was that came up on that test, is what I’m using on a regular basis.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Formaro
So so there are challenging conversations and situations from time to time. But again, I think perspective is important. And again, this is where my husband Tom, like, he’ll see it on my face, like what kind of day I’ve had. And he’ll still be like, perspective, perspective, like, you know, everything is gonna, everything is gonna be okay. And then the other other piece of that as well is I recognize privilege here as well. I mean, not everyone can choose how and where they work.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And clients I get to say yes to and –
Rachel Formaro
Exactly, exactly. And so I am grateful. And I do my best to be mindful of my privilege and to give voice for others wherever I can. I’m not going to say I’m the best at it, and I’m always doing it. But it’s something I’m working on. And and something that my company, again, has the people that I have they helped me grow and help me learn.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s so important when you have, like power formally and informally Right? Like, how do we expand it? And I think that’s one of the things that’s a cool opportunity we have for building our own businesses, we get to do it our way. We get to, you know, we can create the spaces differently, we can make changes maybe more quickly, we can – you know, I mean, that I will say, that is certainly something I’m like, I will never work for another person again. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t partner with somebody, but like, I will never work for another person, again, simply because I love the opportunity to say how do we do this better? And then how do we include more people in it that might not normally have access to that kind of flexibility? And that kind of opportunity? And, you know, so what else is possible? And I appreciate you naming that privilege, right? Like even even, even though I always look at it as an act of courage to say we’re not going to work with these clients, it’s also an act of privilege.
Rachel Formaro
Absolutely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Because not every one is in that position. But boy, is it a powerful place to say this is what we stand for.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah, absolutely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, what? You know, for anyone who’s listening, who’s maybe on the fence, or thinking about maybe starting a business someday, and maybe they’re having the same thoughts we are have, like, if I did it, if I owned a business, this is how I would do it differently. What would you, what would you say to them right now?
Rachel Formaro
I would say, if it’s, if it’s feels like it’s a risk, um, there’s the reward on the other side. Like, the reward is the other side of risk. And honestly, not a day goes by where I don’t still remember that, if anything, like, you know, let’s say we lost all of our clients or something like that. I would still do what I needed to do for my family, I would take a job, I would do what I needed to do. You’re not signing your life away by starting a business?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Formaro
Try it, try it a little bit, and, and see how it feels. And create a positive support network around yourself. Spend time with people that, that believe in you that you can do this. I have benefited from that. I had a family that believed I could do it. Friends who believed I could do it. And again, like, I remember when I even took my first employment job out of college, and I was talking to my dad about it, and I was nervous about it. Because I’m like, Oh, my God, like I’m gonna sign this employment contract. And he said, you’re not signing your life away. This is just today. Maybe you do it two years? You know? So it’s, it can feel very final and you know, all of that. But it’s, it’s there’s risk inherent in going out your front door every day. And what if it goes well? That’s what I’d say.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, Rachel, since you are a first time guest, we have to wrap up with one of our, the question we asked everyone the first time they join, which is what was the conversation you had with yourself or with someone else that transformed you?
Rachel Formaro
That is a great question. I think some of the conversations with my husband, Tom, like, he, he is he’s very progressive. And he, he has had me think in some different ways. Like, I’m just gonna, one thing, and he’s like, don’t don’t talk about this, but I’m going to talk about it. (laughter) So, he, he’s a white man in his 50s.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Formaro
You know, and he’s a good guy. I mean, he is a feminist. And he has been dealing with getting painted by a brush of old white dudes. And him coming to me and saying to me sometimes, where my patriarchy smashing can sometimes feel like a really broad paintbrush to him, and him coming to me with his, you know, seeking my compassion around that. That was transformative for me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.
Rachel Formaro
And again, it comes down to we’re all human. And we all want to flourish. And, and to not be so categorically determined against something at times. So.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure, yeah. Oh, and it’s, uh, you know, and I’m, I’m – and an opportunity for, you know, to get curious, even within that discomfort too.
Rachel Formaro
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What’s the role? What’s the role he’s willing to play and, and there’s a reason, there’s reason the broad brush exists.
Rachel Formaro
There absolutely is, and, and also being the mother of a daughter, a teen daughter, kind of observing her parents.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Rachel Formaro
And their dynamic together, and how that works, you know, for her to grow up as a strong feminist, as well. So lots of interesting discussions and conversations around that. And it’s, it’s been absolutely illuminating. And also, I know, you asked me for one, but even –
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, you can get me two. I got time.
Rachel Formaro
Yeah. Even like, talking with, you know, consultant friends on our team, who are women of color.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Rachel Formaro
And understanding that their feminism has been different than my feminism.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You bet.
Rachel Formaro
And, and that –
Sarah Noll Wilson
And our feminismtends to be pretty exclusionary.
Rachel Formaro
Absolutely. Yeah. And so that has been an education for me. And I’m grateful for it. And also transformative.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Beautiful. Rachel, for people who want to connect with you, learn more about you, or learn more about the work you do. What’s the best way for them to reach out to you?`
Rachel Formaro
LinkedIn, good old LinkedIn, that’s probably the best way. Thanks for asking.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Rachel, thank you so much for saying yes to my crazy invitation at our event and coming on and talking about all the work you’re doing and giving us some really, really great tangible, even like on a micro level, things we can do that can have macro impact. So thank you so much.
Rachel Formaro
Thank you. My absolute pleasure. And congratulations to you also on being a finalist for the Inspiring Women of Iowa.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What an incredible event.
Rachel Formaro
Absolutely!
Sarah Noll Wilson
Can we just like, I want to be in a room celebrating women every day of the week.
Rachel Formaro
I agree. I agree. In fact, I was going to follow up and say like, how do we like just get together and keep doing this? So, this was inspiring.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, for sure. Well, we’ll just need to make that happen. Well, thank you again, for being on the show.
Rachel Formaro
Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week is Rachel Formaro. You know, one of the things that I’m thinking about is that idea of all the ways that I might stay tethered to work, I appreciated that language, that and a human affirming space, I think there’s a lot of fun things to think about with that. And as always, we want to hear from you. What resonated for you, what came up for you? What are you doing differently as a result of this conversation? You can always shoot me a message at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com, where I read and respond to everything personally. And if you want to support the show, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us be able to increase exposure and continue to have great conversations like the one we did today. And if you’re interested in sponsoring us from a more financial perspective, you can become a patron. You can go to patreon dot com slash conversations on conversations where your financial support will go to support the team that makes this show possible. You’ll get early episodes, ad free episodes and get some pretty cool Conversations on Conversations swag.
Speaking of the team, let’s give a big shout out to our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionists Becky Reinert, to our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg, and the rest of the SNoWCo crew. And finally, just a huge thank you to Rachel Formaro for showing up and sharing some of the great ways that she’s building her company to be a more positive place for humans. And that my friends wraps up another episode of Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So till next week, please be sure to rest, rehydrate and I’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.