Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Stephanie Chin for a wide-ranging conversation with insights on leadership, personal growth and experimentation, and the complex challenges of creating diverse and inclusive workplaces.
Stephanie Chin has spent the past two decades as a nonprofit leader, including working for the United Way network both globally and locally and at SRI International, Inc. She believes that we all do better when we all do better and her life’s mission is to help everyone operate near their potential while expanding it, by their own definition. She led day-to-day operations of MyFreeTaxes at United Way Worldwide, expanding the number of free tax filers from 50,000 to over 200,000 in two years, and promulgated an inclusive approach to project management at SRI International, Inc., leading a cross-division project management leadership team on the implementation of the new financial planning system. She approaches poverty fighting with a race conscious lens and advocates for equitable practices and systems change and contributed to United Way Worldwide’s Equity Framework. Chin’s new venture, Spicy Conversations, will help clients improve inclusive leadership practices and focus on behavior and systems change that makes a difference. Chin has a Bachelor of Arts from University of California, Berkeley, a JD/MBA from Emory University, has a Green Belt in Lean Six Sigma, and coaching training from Co-Active Training Institute.
- LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/stephaniemchin
- LinkedIn (company): www.linkedin.com/company/spicy-conversations
- Schedule a conversation with Stephanie: https://calendly.com/spicyconversation
- The Culture Map by Erin Meyer: www.erinmeyer.com/book
- Becoming Powerful Makes You Less Empathetic (HBR article): www.hbr.org/2015/04/becoming-powerful-makes-you-less-empathetic
- Asch Conformity Experiments (Wikipedia): www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments
- The Push and Pull: Declining Interest in Nonprofit Leadership: www.buildingmovement.org/reports/push-and-pull-report
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me back into the studio today is my dear friend Stephanie Chin. You may remember that we had a lovely conversation at the end of 2022. And we’re excited to have her back. So a little bit about Steph. Stephanie Chin has spent the past two decades as a nonprofit leader, including working for the United Way Network both globally and locally. And at SRI International Incorporated. She believes that we all do better when we all do better, and her life’s mission is to help everyone operate near their potential while expanding it by their own definition. She’s led the day to day operations at My Free Taxes at United Way Worldwide, expanding the number of free tax filers from 50,000 to over 200,000 in two years. And she led the inclusive approach to project management at SRI International leading a cross division project management leadership team on the implementation of a new financial planning system. She approaches poverty fighting with a race conscious lens and advocates for equitable practices and systems changes and contributed to the United Way Worldwide equity framework. Chin’s new venture, Spicy Conversations will help clients improve inclusive leadership practices, and focus on behavior and system change that make a difference. She has a Bachelor of Arts from the University of California, Berkeley, a JD/MBA from Emory University, has a green belt in Lean Six Sigma and coaching training from the Coactive Training Institute. In addition to all of that brilliance, some of you may know because you hear me talk about Steph and the work we do. She has been my leadership coach for the last year and a half. Formally, but informally for like, you know, six or seven years prior to that. So welcome to the show, Stephanie.
Stephanie Chin
Thank you. Good to be back.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m excited to have you back Steph. What else do you want people to know about you as they’re listening to this perhaps to the for the first time hearing you or for the second time?
Stephanie Chin
So what came to me that bring up today was I am often in DC, I do work there and have a lot of good friends there. And I was walking through the National Portrait Gallery, just one of my favorite free museums, gotta love the Smithsonian, and was talking with someone about, you know, would you want to be on the walls? And what would you want to be remembered for? And I said, you know, all I want to be remembered for is being a person that when I’m with someone else, they feel like they can get to be who they really are with me, and they get to be a good version of that, whatever that means to them. And that’s gonna play into the conversation we have today.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Stephanie Chin
I don’t know, if you want to think about what you want to be remembered for?
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, (laughs) I – the word that comes up is that she did her best to make people feel a little bit better about wherever they were at, and didn’t cause, you know, as much harm. I feel like that’s the word that comes up for me a lot is just like what, you know, how do we just keep reducing the harm we’re causing. Something fun that I do, I would love – this isn’t necessarily where our conversation is gonna go. But one of the things that has been really fun watching your journey is this sort of life experiment that you’ve been running.
Stephanie Chin
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I wonder if you just take a moment to share it, because I, I would love for people to be exposed to a different possibility than maybe what they consider.
Stephanie Chin
So I live my life more like an experiment than anybody else I know, which is, let’s try something on and see how it goes. And then take that into consideration. And so I’ve spent a lot of my life moving to new places to see what they’re like, what, what my life is like within them, and also resetting and exploring what a different version of myself can be. And so when I decided to transition from nonprofit organizational leadership, to be a coach and to run my own business, be a solopreneur, be an entrepreneur. I was like, well, that’s one experiment. How do I like it? Let’s try it on? Both of my parents – my grandparents were business owners, but they were Chinese restaurants and Chinese laundries, which was like their positional classic immigrant story. And then my parents both owned their own businesses. My father’s a lawyer, my mother’s a realtor, they are all independent and all of their children went into work for bigger companies. (laughter) And so as –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Wait, do you think that was influenced by just wanting to –
Stephanie Chin
One hundred percent!
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Stephanie Chin
My mother is one of the hardest working people I know. She works 100 hour weeks. My father would wake up before anyone else was awake so that he could leave, do his work and be back in time to make us dinner because he valued the time that we had together at dinner time. And so they had no one to pass things off to, there were no breaks, there was working on vacations. There was no stop ever. And it was all on them 100% and the rest of us all went into teams. (laughter) So when I think about the experiment that I’m on now, I think this is an affirmation that the team environment is what I love the most. And that’s I love to work with teams. But the, I think, and I think you think and we’ve been talking about this a lot, Sarah, we all do our work better together. But there were reasons why my parents felt like they didn’t have the support to do it with others.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure. Yeah.
Stephanie Chin
And so the entrepreneurship journey has definitely been like, how does this fit? Do I prefer it over working with an organization? There’s a lot of people questioning that right now, due to the level of, honestly, harm they’re feeling in the organizations that they’re at, the way that they’re feeling that the workplace is not contributing to, to their greater aspirations for life. And what does that look like to try on something else? And then from a geographic perspective, I spent two years during the pandemic not going home for Christmas at Cleveland, Ohio, at the home, I was living in San Francisco. And I was like, What would my life look like if it was set up so that I could have the best life and the best relationships that I wanted. And so 2023 was a year of experimenting of splitting my life in the four communities where I’d spent the most time and had the most people. That’s San Francisco, DC, Des Moines and Cleveland. And so what I learned from that was also, who cares most about me being present? Turns out the nibblings. The niece and nephews, the young ones, because adults we can operate so many of our relationships virtually, and that that is very different in person. And that’s for me as a person, not a general prescription for everyone else. Then this year has been more about what does centering in one space and then doing more trips where you have deeper engagement with folks. But again, kind of like the question around remote work and working, when do you have intentional times for connection? And then intensional times for deep work? And how do you set both of those things up for success? That’s a little bit of the experiment, but everything is like, let me try things on. How does that feel?
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s what I, I mean, that’s, that’s something that I admire so much. And it’s been fun to watch your journey, because it would be really easy, you know, for somebody who may be thought to themselves, Oh, well, I’d like to be closer to my family. But what if, what if, what if, or I would like to, you know, have the opportunity to spend more time here? And and if you have the privilege, if you have the resources and the flexibility, what does it look like to go? Well, let me, let me try it. Let me, let me do it differently. And you and I have had a lot of conversations too about just, you know, there’s so many norms, and what it means to be an entrepreneur, what it means to be productive, quote, unquote, in American society, and like, how do you push against it to say, what’s the, what’s the life that’s right, for me? It’s a, I’m not surprised that you know, the group that wants you to be most present and also what an incredible impact and legacy too, right?Like those are, you know, we know, as they grow like, it’s a very fleeting amount of time that you can be in their life in this way.
Stephanie Chin
Something I talked about with a lot of parents is there was a Reddit post a couple months ago, I want to say, but maybe it was close to a year at this point, that indicated, the only ones who remember when you worked late 20 years from now are your children. And I talked about that with a lot of working parents in particular. And I think I was one of those children where my mother was absolutely focused on helping our family be financially stable. And I think we as siblings said, we are in a different position. We don’t have to make those trade offs the same way she did.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so let’s talk about this idea of, you know, not just limited to the workplace, but creating the environment and space, you know, for me people to be able to show up and be their best selves, to feel safe to be themselves. Something that we hear a lot from clients is, we’re trying to diversify. We want to diversify. We know we want to diversify, but we just can’t keep people. And so I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna leave, I’m just going to open it up to there.
Stephanie Chin
Okay, a workplace wants to welcome people who are different. That means that probably the way in which we have been doing things are not going to work. And we were actually just talking about this right before the call, I have a client that I’m doing a sales call with, where they know that they are going to grow and basically double in size. They know that, therefore their operational approach is not going to work. But they don’t know what one will. That’s the same thing as if you change who you’re bringing into your doors, how you’re bringing them into your doors, how you’re working together, whether or not you’re working in one place, or in multiple places together. So if we think about the challenge for organizations say, we know it’s a good thing, we know that’s a value that we have, and that it’ll bring good things to the company. How do we reorient how we do our operations? Is a very different question than like, how do we just diversify our workforce? And more are more likely to bring folks in and then say, this is the way we do things. How are you going to do it like we do it? Right? Not because there’s malice, or anything like that. It’s like, oh, this the way we do things here so, onboarding anyone, this is the way we do it. And I think I just listened to your conversation with my favorite recruiter, Ify Walker. And for me, what stood out was 50%. And maybe this number is not quite right, she can correct me of new executive hires are seen as not successful 18 months later. It is not their skill set, they got there because of their skill set, because they know how to do the job. It’s because the environment was configured a certain way. And they have to figure out how to operate in it as a leader with power and ways of doing things from their own places.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Stephanie Chin
And so really, the challenge for organizations is how do we grow and adapt and change how we do things in a work environment that is changing from what it used to be. And all of that stuff is really, really hard. Anybody who’s rolled out a new technology can tell you adoption rates are always worse than you think.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Stephanie Chin
It’s never as helpful or very rarely as helpful as you thought it was gonna be. And that’s just the technology, not even how do we work together? How do we think about those things while we’re also trying to drive our business and deliver things to our customers or clients? Yeah. And so it is a much bigger question than I think a lot of people think it is when they say, I want to bring more people who look differently from me in the doors.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and you know, and I mean, I appreciate, I really love that that word of reorient of like, and recognizing that what works for the group now is going to be different than the group that’s coming in. Right? Whether that is, you know, I mean, I think about what’s the latest stat I read that by 2026 25% of the workforce will be Gen Z, or 2030. Or some it’s pretty substantial. Yeah, it’s one of those. And, and part of it is that it’s adapting and changing. It’s not linear. It’s not this linear process. And I think that that’s sometimes what I see people wanting, right, like, tell me what to do. Instead of it, looking at it through the lens of what might we try, right? How do we, how do we learn from what other companies are doing? One of the things that I always like to explore are what, what are some of those common traps we fall into? Whether it’s organizationally, as a leader and then you know, and we can talk about some of the things you and I’ve talked about as like my company is growing, and what does that look like? But and you know, part of it is, gosh, there’s this week, I think we’ve had three different calls with different organizations that are realizing like, we’re behind, we’re behind, like we are and we have a real problem. And we have people in power who maybe don’t believe it’s a problem, right? So that a whole other realm. How do we do this? So what are some of the like, you know, what are some of the traps? So one you named was, you need to be a cultural fit for us? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s a smaller thing. And it’s like, we’re looking for culture fit like you need to adapt it to who we are and what we do.
Stephanie Chin
Yeah. There are so many. And none of them are easy. And also, we haven’t gone through a thorough testing process of if, are those really the things? Or have we tried something else where that isn’t the case, right? We don’t have another scenario where these things don’t exist, but I have some suspicions. So when I first got asked the question of like, what’s getting in our way, at an organization where I really thought, you know, what I think the number one challenge is for a leader is that almost everyone who has become a leader, the system has worked to get them there. And there for they see more of the system’s successes than their failures. And so due to no negative aspect of anything. When the system operates as you think it should, or could, or it has worked well enough for you, you don’t see how it doesn’t work for others. So the bias that that is called is called Survivorship Bias. It’s the way your brain works. The example that you remember where it worked out, that’s the one you remember. So when I was able to get from here to there in 15 minutes, even if it’s the fastest time, it’s suddenly the time, right? When very famous people who are very successful write books and say this is the way to do things. It’s usually because it worked for them, not because all the people who use that approach it worked for. And so I think one of the big challenges is, how do you address a system where there are some people at the bottom or not at the top or feel like they cannot get to the top saying, I feel like if this thing were different, I would have had a better chance at giving you everything you wanted so that I could get up there too, and contribute like you are doing. Not to say better, necessarily, but like, I think I could have done it too. But this thing kept getting in my way. But it didn’t get in your way. How do you understand that as a leader, when you are essentially told, Well, I had to climb, I had to climb the rock or I had to climb the wall the same way you did. And it shows that I am, that like that system is supposed to say you’re better if you’re able to accomplish these things, even despite the the challenging environment. And so I think one of the biggest challenges is it is almost impossible to objectively assess when we think we’re being objective based off of the data that we are able to collect.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Stephanie Chin
And that’s one of those challenges that’s like one of those big hairy ones that people are like, Well, how am I going to fix that. And the way I always say it is every time I enter an organization, I start talking to the staff, there’s things that they get tripped up on all the time that other people don’t have to deal with. So you hear the stories of the CEOs who normally don’t have to submit a reimbursement. (laughs) But they’ll go through it once a year just to see how frustrating the experiences, because there’s a lot of people if they take a trip for work, and it’s a reimbursement process, that affects their their cash flow for their regular expenses, in a way that it doesn’t for the CEO. Also, the CEOs assistant is the one who deals with it. They’re the expert, and often things are expedited for them. So they don’t even have to worry about it. Often the company is just paying for it straight out because they have a credit card. There is no reimbursement process the company pays from the beginning. So it can be those sorts of small things. But what it requires then is a better detection system so that people, when they flag things, or when things seem to be operationally not as strong as they could be. And that requires a lot of people listening to, here’s what the issues are elevating them up. And then people having the power and ability and time to make those things better, which I think a lot of people are doing all the time. But often in a way that feels more like a bandaid because the bigger issue at play requires a lot more work.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Stephanie Chin
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s a – but one of the things that’s coming up as I hear you talk out this, and I was just mentioning this to a client. I was, I was listening to an article on NPR or an interview. And the author who had, he had written this, this book on this hate crime that had happened in Chicago. And one of the things he said was, you know, there’s always your individual truth. And then there’s the systemic truth, right? Like, meaning there’s the data. And I don’t know that I’ve heard it set in this way. Or there was something about this moment that was like, oh, shit that, okay, like it clicked. And, you know, and it was your individual truth will almost always trump, like the systemic truth of what’s around you. And one of the ways you overcome that is you have to start being open to and combining multiple truths. And, and I appreciate you calling that out. Because that, I mean, we see that all the time. But that language of they, I just, I wrote it down, because I don’t Steph. I don’t think that’s come out of our conversations. But I think it’s really, really powerful and provocative is like, they see more of the system success and failures. And and so how does this show up? It shows up in things like often the executives score the culture very differently than other people. It shows up, like, they don’t understand why, you know, I worked for a leader who would get really frustrated, like, Why isn’t everyone contributing 100% of their 401k? Like, this is free money we’re giving them like, because they’re literally like figuring out, do I pay for food, or my child care, and they’re a single parent, and they’re like, their, their environment is very different, you know, then his comfort.
Stephanie Chin
Also, on 401k’s, the whole default, opt in opt out process plays a big role. If you’ve got a lot of other decisions going, even if you can afford it, you check the basic thing, right, or the thing that doesn’t require a checkmark. So there’s a good amount of research about 401k is that once they moved from opt in, do we want you to do this, to opt out, so many more people use it just because we have so many decisions to make. It’s just easier not to make a decision in so many different scenarios. Yeah. So yes, there’s the there realities are different, but also the system over all, people don’t make decisions they don’t have to make. Yeah, and if you want them to make the best decision, you default it to shouldn’t opt out. They can get the free money, why are you making them requested it?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. No, that’s a great addition. Thank you.
Stephanie Chin
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, and, and then, like, how do you stay connected? And and you know, and how do you understand those those barriers or those rubs or the, you know, the hills people have to climb? And then, you know, let’s apply that. Not just to the like, formal power structure. But that’s also true when you hold multiple dominant identities in an organization, right? Or in a, not even in an organization just like in your world, in your community? If you don’t see. Yeah, you just don’t see because you didn’t experience the same kind of challenges.
Stephanie Chin
Well, and I found, I often cite the research that like, the empathy part of your brain works less well, the more successful you are, it gets less exercise, right? It’s not being tasked as often. So it’s not, I don’t like to blame anyone for like, Oh, you’re successful. So you can’t be not, that’s not true. But like, without attention, the world formulates you into and also what a lot of executives are asked to do is sort what’s important versus what is not. And what has determined to be important is historically driven. And historically, feelings should not belong in the workplace in an American work environment. And therefore, it is not important, but it is affecting so many things in how your organization operates that I think using all of the older definitions of here’s what’s important and what it’s not, is putting a lot of our current leaders in a very precarious position where they’re now, it’s being demanded of them to have a greater skill level at working with others. Then what got them to that position, which has historically been individual contribution.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah. And leading by command and control, I mean, there is this, this very real tension and, you know, and, and that, that language of demanding is very, it’s very present. You know, whether it’s the workforce, whether it’s clients who are saying, hey, like y’all need to figure this out, because we don’t want to do work with a company like this. And you know, and then what, what what I observe happen, right is, in some cases, some people lean into that some people get curious, some people explore and go, Okay, well, how do I do it differently, even though it’s hard. I mean, I can’t tell you how many, how many people in leadership, who I would identify as like white male, go, I don’t know that I’m the right leader now. Because I don’t know how to do this. And –
Stephanie Chin
Said in a different way – and I think I might have shared this with you. I’ve come from the nonprofit sector. And there’s a recent report out about leaders of color, particularly in nonprofits. But actually all leaders of nonprofits and how there are fewer people of color who are aspiring to leadership positions, because the weight of everything that is expected of them is growing. And so it feels even less like you’re able to be successful. And I’ve talked to quite a few executives who are leaving their organizations because they are like, the, I just want to focus on doing the work. There are so many other things that’s making it harder to do it. Right? And so I think there’s a lot of people right now, who are questioning is the role of the leader worth what you have to pay to do it well?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. It’s, well, we just had a session this morning. And we, you know, our internal client was talking about how, you know, we’re, we’re trying to ask these leaders to coach and develop people and to have these conversations about their career and all of that, and he’s like, and, you know, and they don’t? Like they don’t know. And it’s like, no, because like, no, most people in management are accidental managers, right? They, we expect them to understand psychology and human behavior and all of this when, exactly like, most people are promoted because of their technical skills. And then you know, and then we get frustrated, because they don’t know how to do it. I was like, Well, of course, they don’t know how to do it. Like, this isn’t something that, you know, you and I weren’t born knowing how to lead and guide conversations like this, we practiced and we learned and we studied and we, right? And, and, and then to your point about prioritization, it’s always one of the things that is the lowest of we, this fire is in front of us right now, that is going to impact our bottom line. So this is what’s going to get the attention. Even though this is actually the kindling, (laughs) that’s going to increase that fire.
Stephanie Chin
I’ll also say like, being a manager and a people leader, is really, really hard, because you – the best people, managers, from my perspective, are the ones who can help someone do their best work, even when they’re very different from them. So like, I’m a strong J in Myers Briggs, it’s not even necessary that it’s like Myers Briggs is not my favorite, but it’s a good language for lots of people to know about. So I like things to be defined, to have targets, to move things forward. It is very frustrating for me when someone wants to push back deadlines, and we don’t know what’s going on, because I have to move a lot of other things around around it. But my job as a people leader, is to not force my way on them. But to find a way for them to do their best work when I have to be mindful of the schedule, but they maybe don’t. But enough so that the next person who has to take their, the thing that they’re working on to the next stage is ready for it. And that is not fun for almost anyone to think about, How do I set you up for success when I don’t need any of the supports that I’m gonna give you? I just do it by naturally, quote unquote, right? Like, it is my ingrained skill. This is the way that I do things. And more often, it’s much easier to be like, do it my way, because I know how to help you do it well. Not even because I need you to do it. But that’s the only way I know how to help you do it well. And that’s what a lot of managers are doing is, this is the way I know how to advise you. Because it works for me. Almost none I talked to can say, based off of how I’ve assessed what works well for you, this might work. Try it on. That’s much more complicated.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And, you know, and then and then multiply that if you have a team of 20 and, you know, and then working with other teams and people and you know, I mean the I feel like the word that I hear over and over at all the different leadership and HR conferences I’ve been attending is we’re in the age of individualization when it comes to work, whether that is, you know, how do we pay closer attention to well, what do you actually need to be successful? What’s important to you? And, and that takes a lot of time and effort.
Stephanie Chin
That’s interesting that that’s your, what you’re hearing. I’m curious how you’ll respond to my reaction to that, which is, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Stephanie Chin
We’re in the age of finally realizing that cookie cutter doesn’t work.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughs) I mean like (laughs) sure, sure.
Stephanie Chin
So we’re not at individualization, though it my feel that way.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Stephanie Chin
But we are, I think, now in the stage of saying, we have been approaching things, almost like, we’re going to deal with everyone, like, push them into the cookie cutter, they’re the cookie that will get molded into it. And then we’re gonna shoot a lot out. And yes, we might put different icing on it, or whatever sort of thing. But like, we we are in the stage of realizing that one way is no longer working for us. Which then is making people feel like so much individualization, I’m doing something different for everyone. (laughter) But there’s, there’s lots of very consistent themes, which is, I think what can be almost universal, is take the time to listen. I really, like Radical Candor’s framing generally. But what I found in nonprofit spaces, in particular is, the better terms for me than challenge directly with care is be clear and caring. Because I think what you, Kim Scott and her team are really trying to do is be clear with people, if they are not meeting expectations, they need to know that. If they are meeting expectations, people need to know that. But I think we’re in a grown up game of telephone. What do you think you said, might not be what they heard, and it requires a lot more back and forth. And so what’s almost universal is, you can say what you’re gonna say, but follow up, check in. Is that the way you heard it? Okay, are we on the same page about what success looks like? This is what we’re going to do together, and I’m going to hold you accountable to the things that you have control over, that you are responsible for pushing forward and not for the things of other people, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. It’s the – I love that. Like, No, we’re just realizing this isn’t working and more. (laughs) Because I mean, let’s be real. I mean, it worked for some people before, but there was such a cost to so many, you know, it’s like, –
Stephanie Chin
Or could be small, medium, large sizes versus 2 4 6. Right? Like, we’re getting more individualized than we have been. And I think people are feeling like it’s much more individualized –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Than it actually is or needs to be. Well, and that, you know, and that’s something you and I, we we’ve talked a lot about. And now, because of our work together has, I mean, I feel like it’s something that we talk about a lot in the team or even with clients. It’s just that idea of being explicit. How do we be much clearer? You know, because even the language of challenging directly can feel aggressive to some people, depending on how they were raised or their culture, but that idea of how do we be more, just more explicit? And, you know, and to echo that point of, and check for understanding, because just because you think it made sense to you, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to, like other people will interpret it in the same way. The –
Stephanie Chin
Before you move on, I just want to say, explicit, it is an American bias term.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Is it?
Stephanie Chin
Here’s the reason why.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, no, give it to me.
Stephanie Chin
Being clear.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah?
Stephanie Chin
Americans, right. So you and I have talked about this, often I will reference the Culture Map and how they talk about high context versus low context. Low context says be explicit. That’s American culture generally. Japan is implicit, but it is clear within the folks who understand it. So what do you need to be clear on? If people are clear on things? Do you need to be explicit? Or is it because people are not clear, because they don’t have a shared understanding. Right? It’s a it’s it kind of messes with you head.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It hurts my brain. It hurts my brain.
Stephanie Chin
It kinda messes with your head.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Here’s how I’m seeing it is like, like a frog hopper. (laughs) This is what allows us to get to that point, right. Well, and the other thing that I want to go back to that you said, just to amplify it is, is listening and observing. Because I know a lot of people love the assessments, and it’s pretty amazing that when you can take just a few moments to just really pay attention to somebody, you get a pretty good sense of what’s important to them. And even if you’re not accurate, right? To be like, I, here’s what I observe. And here’s my sense, or even asking them, hey, here’s, you know, like, what, what do you need in the situation? I feel like sometimes, you know, there’s a, there’s a fear or worry, or even just like a detachment of like, what you’re observing your intuition. It might, your interpretation might not be right. I’ve always loved that definition. Your intuition is right. But your interpretation may not be, of like, if you sat down and went, what do I know to be true about my team members? What have I observed and how they work really well? You know, I think about that for my, my lived experience. When I (laughed) I was on my last month of my job at ARAG when I got diagnosed with ADHD. Came in to my boss, and I was like, well, apparently, I got a bad case. And she was like, Wait, are you surprised? Like, I’m not?
Stephanie Chin
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I was I was like, oh, oh, yeah. This isn’t new to you. She’s like, No, that’s why I’ve, like I knew with you, right, that I needed to help you. I needed to help with prioritization. I knew with you that I needed to set external deadlines, you know, and it was just like, Oh, shit. Okay. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for thanks for knowing me. And, you know, and to that point of what is possible, like, what do you – like, when you think about either what you’ve seen work, or what you dream about? What do you feel like is possible that we haven’t tapped into or, you know, I’ll just say that what is possible, when we’re able to more consistently intentionally adapt and adjust, right, to the people we’re working with.
Stephanie Chin
So I’m a dreamer, and I’m an existentialist. And so I’m gonna go really meta, and I hope some people come along with us on this journey, I don’t really know how your listeners are gonna enjoy this conversation. But, so I’m a big nerd, went to a lot of school, when you think about how things operate in the world right now, what I hear a lot of is, we always have more than enough ideas, we don’t have the ability to execute against all of the good ideas. And so we’re limited by our execution capacity. I think one of the things people are really excited about with AI and automation, everything like that is, what if it became easier to execute any potentially good idea and test it to see if it’s good. So what if instead of being limited by our operational powers, we could do everything that we thought might be a good idea. And then we could live in the dreams of what is the best, like, what’s another new idea we could come up with, that could level us up in our game, whatever our life is, both collectively as a world and individually as people. And so for me, what I see is so much, so many people who feel like they are not seen as valuable and doing like, and liked valued to pour into that someone will be like, I want you to level up. And, in the ways that you want to be and I see how great you are already, I think most people don’t feel that way in the world. And so what if, in our ability to execute, we were able to say we want to really unleash the powers for you to be productive in whatever definition you have of it, like be your best self. So my dream goal is to help everyone operate near their potential and in my head, that’s a graph with a potential curve. While expanding that graph, moving it out, by your definition, not mine, not me saying I need you to do this thing. But whatever the more of the better of that people want in their lives, how do we do more of that? And I think that’s the dream that I’m driving towards is what if more people felt self actualized towards I can enter a place and really do my best work. I feel like almost no one feels that way. And that’s the big loss is because almost everyone I talked to is like I could do more if they gave me the opportunity.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. I always love the moments when I’m in these conversations, and then what transpires in my brain is like, what’s the what’s the reflection questions? What are the questions that we can be asking? Even just that, you know, that, do people feel like they can enter your space and be their best selves and do their best work? Or, you know, open it up of like, what are the ways in which they can? What are the ways in which we’re contributing to not but but also that am I valuable enough to be poured into?
Stephanie Chin
Well, and like back to your first, like, or one of your first questions about like, what’s getting in their way? What are the challenges and me talking about leaders? What happens when one leader or a bunch of the leaders who’ve gotten up there like, this is exactly that place? And then there’s even a minority of people, but a, like, consistent with, consistent life experiences or demographics that are saying, not for us?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Stephanie Chin
So it’s not even that it’s this organization is all bad or all good. But if it’s good for some people, can it be good for more? Or does it? Can it only be good for some and the rest of us should leave?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Stephanie Chin
And I like to dream that it’s not the second. That it can be, and that people would love it to be, Oh, no, I don’t need it to just be my way. But that’s the way I’ve experienced things. This has worked well for me, and I’ve been trying to grow that. What does it look like to make it you too?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. Well, and recognizing that, you know, this is something that, again, has come up in our work that I want to get out into the airwaves, so to speak, is and recognizing that, what – I think the way that we’ve talked about it is, you know, when your group has operated in a way that has felt really good for that group, has felt really psychologically safe for that group, there can be a loss when you have to adjust it, there can be a loss when the like, equilibrium, if you will, gets a little disrupted. And, and even just recognizing that, that’s just part of the journey of adapting and evolving, you know. That’s, that’s, that’s what I’ve been kind of keeping in mind, as I think about our own growth or whatever is like, yeah, like who we are now isn’t going to be who we are in a couple of years, there will be some things that will be great about that. And there might be some things to like grieve about that. And, and all of that is okay, but but recognizing that, you know, what we need now for even just like this little group of humans, is gonna look different when different humans come into play, or when there’s different external factors that are influencing things and all of that. And so just like, just almost being almost being prepared, or not surprised that like, oh, that’s gonna, there’s gonna be some some rub points. And so how do we anticipate it? How do we, you know, I think and that’s something that I’ve really appreciated about our work is, you know, you’ll use the, the analogy of like, we’re coming around the curve, how do we, how do we make sure we don’t jump it? Like, how do we start to understand where we might jump this, this curb here, as we bring on people who are different, as we bring on, as we grow, as we expand, as we tackle other things?
Stephanie Chin
Yeah, so I’m gonna put this on the recording, but you can decide whether or not to include in the podcast, right? I’ve been pretty explicit about like, your team’s too nice for me. (laughs) Right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.
Stephanie Chin
Which, generally, is a good thing. Right? Um, and I think this was one of my challenges in Des Moines, folks are really nice. And I come with a little more kick. That’s why my company is called Spicy Conversations, right? And folks have been generally very lovely for me. But what that means is, I have no psychological safety because I, every single time I give you something, I need to decide, how do I make the meal for your taste? And know that if I make it too spicy, and I kill you, right, like in the food, right, like you have a tummy issue, it doesn’t work? That I’m out. Right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Stephanie Chin
And that’s not because any of you are trying to do that to me. It’s not because you’re saying you cannot be spicy here. It is because as someone who is entering a group where everyone’s getting along so well, and they’re so nice. Do I want to blow this up by contributing? And what are the consequences for me, for them? And how productive is that even? Right? And those are the questions that people who aren’t as similar to the people in power in particular, are constantly negotiating every time or very often. They are contributing, and they have something that other people aren’t thinking of. And we know from research, sociological research, that if people are put in a room and there’s two lines, one line is longer than the other. But you have all these people saying the shorter line is longer. A large percentage of our population will say that the shorter line is longer rather than to stand out in the crowd. Right? And so there’s all these psychological and sociological elements that are saying, Do I want to be that person who one, sticks out, is not part of the group? Who might mess it up. But also, is this one thing worth it to make things even better?
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s, uh, yeah, I mean, that I don’t have any more to add to it. But just like in agreement, and, and I think like, what I appreciate about how you approach this, and why is, is like, like, some of this is just human nature. And we have to just be aware of it. And, and aware that if you only, you know, view the world through your lens, like you’re gonna miss out and there might be things you do that you don’t realize might cause harm, or you might minimize or whatever the case is, and I’m not that’s not excusing. Right? Like, –
Stephanie Chin
We all create harm we don’t realize.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Exactly.
Stephanie Chin
Yeah. Yeah. It’s not some of us are doing it, because we’re not paying attention.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. It’s, uh, and I think that that’s just like, such an important. It’s an important invitation I think to normalize that, because right now, one of the things that I see a lot, and it’s something I’ve had to push against too, as you know, intimately in our work is like, I know, there’s a lot of, again, let me just say it, there’s a lot of white folks in power, who – I, well, this just came up yesterday, they’re like, they don’t want to say the wrong thing. So they’re just not going to say anything. You know, they don’t want to get a complaint made, so they’re just not going to do anything. And I don’t even know where I’m going with that necessarily. But like, how do we how do we keep normalizing, like, how do we engage in the conversations? How do we, I mean, one of the things that has been a gift in my work with you is like, yeah, you’re gonna mess up. It’s like, it’s not a question of if it’s when, and then what do you do with that? And how do you learn and how do you repair? And how do you do differently? And? And like, and how do we how do we understand those dynamics so that we can show up differently and more effectively within them?
Stephanie Chin
Yeah. I think it’s a big outstanding question, because I don’t know how many people feel like they have gone through that process successfully yet.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Right. What does vulnerability in a leadership position look like? And I think we have lots of media, news, press release articles and related stories of someone said something stupid, and lost their job?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Stephanie Chin
And therefore, how are we creating the incentives for anyone? Do we want people to speak out? Or do we not? Right? Do we want people to take risk? Or do we not? I kind of don’t want people to take risks with junior staff, who are going to pay for it while trying to be on their own learning journey. That’s one of the reasons why I took this approach of like, let me be the consultant. Let’s let’s talk about this in private. Let’s unpack some of these things. Let’s have someone who has more similar power and experiences to you to be able to say, Well, you’ve invited this conversation. Have you thought about it this way? Well, then how do you operationalize that in your business? Now that you have this expanded view of, Oh. I don’t know if that works. Let me try something else. And maybe a way that I can do that is to say, I’m in my own learning journey. Can I try something with you? And then to journey in with someone else recognizing that, especially if you’re a person power, most people will say yes. And most people will appreciate that you asked, even if they really don’t want to be a part of it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Sure.
Stephanie Chin
But like, how do we help people do those things and also don’t expect to come out and be like, I got it right and we’re done!
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. As we wind down our time, you know, this was a question that I had asked my good colleague and friend T. Maxine Woods-McMillan. And I don’t I haven’t ever asked you it. So I’ll give you a moment to think about it, but you probably have an answer at the ready. What are, what are the questions that you want or wish people in positions of power and authority, were asking more?
Stephanie Chin
Oh, so the way I’m gonna with this, is gonna be completely different. But, am I where I want to be in life? Because I was actually just talking about this with an Asian American leader, who was noting the trajectory of people who are like us as I am Asian American, for those who are just listening on the podcast and might not know, of being in powerful positions and hating their lives.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure, yeah.
Stephanie Chin
And I think part of the challenge right now is there’s a whole bunch of leaders who are there because they were good at school, because they were told to do all of these things, but aren’t living their best lives either. And so one question I would love leaders to ask is, like, am I where I want to be? What do I want more of in my life? Is where I am right now and the things that I’m doing, is that what I want more of? Or do I want less of it? Even before they start thinking about their leadership position. But I think a lot of leaders right now, are not asking themselves that questions, are not operating from a place of empowerment or joy themselves, and are therefore just following rules that have been passed on to them. Like, this is what I’m supposed to do. This is the title that I have taken on. Therefore, it is my job to cut 1000 jobs today. And so I’m just gonna do it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Stephanie Chin
Um, a lot of the people I talked to who have had to do that go, I hated doing it. But they were following the prescriptions that came before them, because they weren’t in a position of saying, Can we do something better? Is this what I want to be doing right now? Like, what? What is the challenge? Is it really the thing that we we have historically said it is, I think, many more times than we realize it’s not?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s such a lovely invitation. Because I can think of lots of leaders I’ve worked with who are like, I’m the CEO, and I’m, like, the most unhappy I’ve ever been. I was supposed to, this was supposed to solve everything. And then connect that to, if you don’t feel good, if you don’t feel at your best, like how the hell can you create a culture where other people can do the same, you know, like, can lean into their best selves.
Stephanie Chin
Yeah. And I, very early in my career, while I was in law school, I spoke to an owner of a law firm that was successful. And he was like, you know, someone had told me that I would now spend most of my day on HR issues, probably wouldn’t have done this whole thing.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Stephanie Chin
And I think that’s I’m talking to an increasing number of leaders of organizations who are like, this isn’t feeling like what I want to be doing. This is feeling like I did something that got me to here that I was really excited about, and I’m less excited about this position now.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Stephanie Chin
But it was the next step. And so I took it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Stephanie Chin
Or this is where the growth has gone. And shouldn’t I keep it?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Stephanie Chin
I think there’s a lot of us who are wondering, especially post pandemic, is this the meaning of life that I want?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. It feels like a beautiful place to wrap up. Stephanie, I adore you, I always learn. There’s so much – I love I love.
Stephanie Chin
We talked about things I was not planning at all to talk about.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What’s really fascinating is also like that point you were making about AI. And like the execution like you and I are going to have to have a different conversation about that. That was that like my, my brain is buzzing amongst other things. Okay, so folks, we are gonna wrap up this conversation because Steph and I will just keep chatting and Nick already had to cut us off so we could start recording this. If I may, I’ll let me let me promote your work. So for, for leaders of any organization, any size, right? I mean, yeah, I’m a coach and I work with leaders and I believe even I like even coaches need coaches and I, it has been one of the most powerful and not always comfortable work that I’ve done. But without question it has helped, my work with Stephanie, with you, has helped me be a better person, better leader. It has impacted. So if you are somebody who is looking to work with somebody who’s who’s gonna change challenge you, but also brings this incredible depth of understanding the evolution of businesses, and team growth and inclusion and just all of the things. I cannot recommend Steph enough. So with that said, for people who are interested in connecting with you and learning how to work with you, what’s the best way for people to do that?
Stephanie Chin
Sure. The easiest place is on LinkedIn. That’s now my major social media outlet. Stephanie Chin or Spicy Conversations, we’re both on there. Also, I’ve not been inundated by requests from folks after our last podcast, but if anybody just wants to have a deep conversation? I have a Calendly link that anyone can book like one free call, just to chat about some of the things you’re like mulling in your head. Because there’s not enough spaces like that, period. And I like to have interesting conversations.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And it’s not, I mean, like, it’s not lip service folks. Like, I feel like anytime I’m like, Oh, I was thinking about this, you want to have a conversation about it? Why don’t you throw something on my calendar? So like, do it take advantage of it, you won’t, you won’t regret it. Steph. Thank you.
Stephanie Chin
Thank you have a good rest of the day.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, you too.
Our guest this week has been Stephanie Chin. And I mean, obviously, I always get something out of our conversations. It’s why I pay her to be in conversation and help me as a leader. But I have to say, there’s so much that I’m going back to. And the one that I just want to reiterate is how everyone wants to be valued enough to be poured into, like, am I valuable enough to be poured into? And the thing that I’m thinking about with that for myself is who do I pour into? And who do I not? And why? And am I okay with that? So I’d love to hear from you. As always my friends, this is my invitation. And I want more people to take advantage of it because I love to hear from you. But what resonated for you, what came up for you, what questions came up for you? You can always send us an email at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com, where I read and respond to every single email we receive. So send those our way. And if you want to support the show, there’s two ways you can do it. The first is to rate, review and subscribe to the show and your preferred podcast platform. This allows us to get more exposure and to be able to continue have the conversations like we did with Stephanie. And if you haven’t already, consider becoming a patron. You can go to patreon dot com slash conversations on conversations where your financial support will completely go to supporting the team that makes this show possible. Also, some pretty great benefits in addition to supporting the team is you’ll get early access to episodes that are ad free and you’ll get some very unique Conversations on Conversations swag. So check that out. Again, that’s patreon dot com slash conversations on conversations.
And then speaking of the team, let’s give them a big shout out. To our producer Nick Wilson, our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionists Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo crew. Thank you so much. And a final thank you to our guests Stephanie Chin and pushing all the ways we can think differently about work and making it better for all. Well, my friends that brings us to the end of our episode. This has been another episode of Conversations on Conversations. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others we can change the world. Thank you so much for listening, for showing up for yourself and for us. Remember to rest, rehydrate and we’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.