Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Shanté Gordon as they explore the importance of proactive resourcing, community, and living with authenticity to prevent and navigate burnout.
ABOUT
Shanté Gordon, a dynamic DEI Strategist, Executive Coach, and Trauma-Sensitive Wellness Facilitator & Yoga Teacher (RYT-500), boasts a rich, multi-disciplinary career spanning decades. Armed with an Industrial Engineering and Management Sciences degree from Northwestern University, she began in supply chain management, where she uncovered workplace disparities around gender, race, and privilege. Transitioning to marketing, Shanté climbed the ranks in iconic music labels, online retailers, and fitness brands, until burnout prompted a recalibration towards a more balanced life. This shift led her to wellness, a journey that now profoundly informs her DEI strategy. As a DEI strategist at The Norfus Firm, Shanté adeptly merges mindfulness and trauma sensitivity with change management expertise, crafting tailored solutions for organizations ranging from small arts non-profits to major healthcare companies and most industries in between. Her unique approach centers on aligning organizational values with culture while maintaining a people-centric and data-driven focus. Beyond titles and industries, Shanté’s true passion lies in connecting the dots within others’ narratives. Whether coaching individuals or steering organizations, she finds joy in unlocking their potential and guiding them towards their goals. Shanté is a catalyst for transformation, committed to making workplaces environments where everyone can thrive.
SHOW NOTES
- The Norfus Firm Website: www.thenorfusfirm.com
- LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/shantegordon
- Instagram: www.instagram.com/shantesgordon
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic or topics to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, and joining me today is a treat of a person. Shanté Gordon. Let me tell you a little bit about Shanté, and then we’re going to get into our conversation. Shanté Gordon is a dynamic DEI strategist, executive coach and trauma sensitive wellness facilitator and yoga teacher. She boasts a rich multi disciplinary career spanning decades. Armed with an industrial engineering and management science degree from Northwestern University, she began in supply chain management, where she uncovered workplace disparities around gender, race and privilege. Transitioning to marketing, Shanté climbed the ranks and iconic music labels, online retailers and fitness brands, until burnout prompted a recalibration towards a more balanced life. This shift led her to wellness, a journey that is now profoundly informing her DEI strategies. She is a DEI strategist at The Norfus Firm, and she adeptly merges mindfulness and trauma sensitivity with change management expertise, crafting tailored solutions for organizations ranging from small arts, nonprofits to major healthcare companies and most industries in between. Beyond titles and industries, Shanté true passion lies in connecting the dots within other’s narratives, whether coaching individuals or steering organizations, she finds joy in unlocking their potential in guiding them towards their goal. Shanté is a catalyst for transformation, committed to making workplace environments where everyone can thrive. Welcome to the show, Shanté.
Shanté Gordon
Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. I’m really excited to be here, really looking forward to this conversation. We always have a lot of fun together. So this is, this is going to be great.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. So we’re just, I mean, we’re just hitting record on what you know, and we’re inviting the rest of the people into our conversation. Okay, so Shanté, what else should people know about you?
Shanté Gordon
Wow, you know, it’s funny, I get this question. I never know. I always go blank right before I answer it, because there’s so many things, we’re so multifaceted.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I know! I love asking it because I never know what people will come up with.
Shanté Gordon
So I, um, yeah, gosh, you know, I always tend to default just to, like, upbringing. So I am from, I am from Miami originally, and my family’s Jamaican, and so when I was born, which was a while ago, there weren’t a lot of people who were, could say that they were from Miami. That’s changed now, obviously. But most folks, it’s an immigrant city, so most folks, their family, comes from other places, and so I always like to go back there, because it really informs how I show up in the world, in terms of, like, being first generation, coming from, again, very strong Jamaican household and and kind of bridging like that, that, that, that that transition between, like, that heritage and then being American and so, like, it’s just a really interesting upbringing coming from that perspective. And it really is this the foundation for and how I show up in the world and the work that I do so big up and shout out to Jamaica.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. I love it. I um, it’s funny when I think about Miami, I’ve only been there once. Um, what do you like love most about your hometown?
Shanté Gordon
Wow, Miami. So I, yeah, that is a that is a interesting question, because I have a bit of a love, hate kind of relationship with Miami currently. So I think the thing that I loved about growing up here in Miami was, at the time, the level of diversity and the mix of people, right? It was so, it’s so, it’s not, it still isn’t, but especially then, it wasn’t a traditional American city, and it was great. So, you know, you have people coming in from all sorts of different places and being with everyone, and, you know, you had your challenges, of course, that’s normal. But growing up, it felt like they, we were a lot more together. Felt like we, the community was a lot broader, a lot more diverse. You know, I left when I was 15, moved to Houston for two years, and that was a completely different experience than growing Miami, right? Like it was the experience of being in the south, like the textbook south.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shanté Gordon
Oh, this is what, oh, this is what they’re talking about. Okay, yeah, no, I don’t like this. And then I spent, like, undergrad and grad school in Chicago, New York for a number of years, and then came back to Miami in 2012 and when I came back in 2012 I was just like, wow, this is really different. This is not a place that I grew up in. And I don’t, I don’t know. I mean, a lot of years had gone by, quite a few, actually, 17 or so, and so, you know, just the city changed. And so right now I’m in this place of kind of flux with the city where it’s beautiful in the winter, it’s warm, it’s sunny, it’s gorgeous, but, you know, it can be maybe a little vapid, (laughs) but, – kind of like someone, you know, if you’ve dated anyone in the past that was absolutely gorgeous or really beautiful, but then you have a conversation, you’re like, oh, hmm.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Shanté Gordon
So that’s how I feel right now.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s, no, I, well, it, it is something that we, you know, we talk a lot about, because I live and have grown up in Iowa, which is an incredibly homogeneous.
Shanté Gordon
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Incredibly white, like 93% white. And so that’s a whole different experience. And then, you know, when you get exposed, I think the thing that was that was startling for me, when I went to Miami, and this was years and years ago, the level of disparity of what wealth was shown compared to people who didn’t have any just not that there’s not that wealth disparity here. It’s just you don’t see it on display in the same way, you know what I mean? Like you don’t see Lamborghinis being driven around. You don’t see, and, you know, and anyway, so that that was, that was something that, like, struck me as I was like, Oh, they’re very, very clear, like, –
Shanté Gordon
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Economic structures happening. They happen everywhere. But it was just on display in a way.
Shanté Gordon
You’ll see that. You’ll see the Lamborghinis, the Ferraris. You’ll see the high end cars. You’ll see the high end buildings, right? And then a couple blocks away, little like shanty towns, yeah. How does this exist in one city with a (inaudible)? But that’s, that’s Miami.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Shanté Gordon
You’re absolutely right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I’d love to get back there. Okay, so Shanté, I want to know a little bit more, because we haven’t had a chance to. I mean, this is our first time speaking one on one, and so I want to know a little bit more about your journey and background. I mean, obviously, in your bio, you talk about all of the different organizations and industries you’ve supported, and then how you hit this point of burnout. So take us back a little bit of what did that journey look like for you, and how that shaped how you show up now.
Shanté Gordon
Wow, there’s so many identities and intersections and experiences that have really kind of shaped me, informed how I show up in the world, how I view things again, starting with just that upbringing, the Caribbean American upbringing. Going to school, it was, you know, I think, I went to performing arts schools, magnet schools growing up, because I was in music. I was a I was a band geek, right? Like some music.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Wait, what’d you play? What’d you play?
Shanté Gordon
Piano and violin.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Do you still?
Shanté Gordon
No, (laughs) I could probably play flute, but the violin, piano, not so much. But I could probably still play because that was my, because I even played that through college, in college. But anyway, so I, I, I went to, so I went to performing art schools, great, very diverse, but public schools. My college experience was my first private school experience. And again, it’s, it’s Northwestern, so it’s a very, it’s a, it’s a top school. It’s very, you know, it’s, it’s up there, and it’s, it’s very white, it’s a primary, primarily, predominantly white institution, is what they call it. And when I was in school, it was very much that, because of the caliber of the school, you had to figure it out. So, you know, you gain, gained some really great skills in terms of, just like, sink or swim, figure it out, like, there’s not a lot of support, and then there isn’t it just in general, right? I think for anyone, thankfully on campus, we did, we did have we had this, this, the African American student affairs department. So that was really one of the things that made me even go to Northwestern because at least we had that. We called it the Black House. And so at least was that thing that, like was the anchor for those of us, because we’re very small population on on campus, and so you felt like you had that support there. But it really is just navigating what, what is this? Navigating race, navigating gender, navigating socioeconomic status, navigating like even intellect, right, intelligence, and navigating like just so many things, and just trying to figure out your place in the world. And then I am. I’m a someone who’s in a bigger body. So you had that factored on top of it, also. So many things that I’m just trying to figure out. Okay, well, who, who am I? And what am I? A very existential kind of, like, situation that you’re dealing with? Um, so, so you’re just trying to survive. You’re just trying to figure out, like, what do you do? You’re a young person. You don’t know how anything works. I went to school when I was 17. I don’t know anything of how any of this works. My, again, my family is, they’re immigrants. They’re Caribbean people, (inaudible) know how America really, really works for real, for real, right? It’s like, you get in here and you’re like, Ah, all right, fine. I gotta make something up. I gotta figure it out. So you, you just pay attention, and you start to try to make sense of as many things as you can. And you, you, you try to put together what you think, like, who you are, yeah. So you craft yourself from various experiences, from various lessons, from everything, and to create, like this persona of yourself that hopefully can help you get through the world.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah?
Shanté Gordon
Right? And so, you know, I, I, I’m a creative person in general, but trying to survive, I ended up moving into an industrial engineering degree. Fine. No problem. I didn’t want to lose my math and science credits. I wanted to graduate. Northwestern is expensive, so, like, let’s just get out of here. And so I moved from the College of Arts and Sciences into the engineering school, because my mother was like, you need to do something to make something of yourself in the world. And I’m okay, Mom. Well, what? She’s like, either business or something. I was like, Well, I have an undergrad biz degree. So it’s either econ or industrial engineering. Wasn’t trying to do econ. Went engineering route. So that’s how I ended up with that degree after, after trying all the other degrees, like I tried Chemi, I tried, I went down through this, the engineering and it was the last one. They were going to kick me out of the school. But anyway, we finished that, and I start, and I end up getting a job in supply chain after graduation, and that was cool.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m so curious. So I do want to pause you for a second, because there’s two things. There’s two things that you’ve talked about that I was curious to to hear more about. You know, one is this, this finding yourself and shaping yourself.
Shanté Gordon
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And and I couldn’t help but wonder, for you, were you able to stay connected to your true self, being in a culture that wasn’t built for you, being around you know, or was there a shedding of who you were and then a rediscovery of who you were later? I just I see that, I experienced that, although very different reasons, of like, oh, this is who I’m supposed to be, because I’m working at what other people are doing. So I was just curious for you, what was that experience like, of finding yourself like, did you feel like you you were shaping yourself, or did you feel like you were shaping yourself to fit the system.
Shanté Gordon
Great question, fantastic question. And I think that for me, if I go, if I place myself back there, there was a lot of conforming. There was a lot of, you know, taking on of ideas and ideals that maybe weren’t necessarily my own, but were ones that either, you know, society may have pushed or again parents, it’s like, where do these stories come from? Like, where do these narratives (inaudible) and how do we take them on in order to to – again, for me, it’s really about survival. Like, I think it really comes down to, for everyone it’s like, what, how do I? How do I make sense of all of this? How do I bring some order to anything? Because this is like, completely, I don’t know what any of this means or how this works. So how do we, how do we make sense of it? And so what do I need to? Who do I need to be? What do I need to take on? How do I need to fashion myself in order to really be able to make it in this world. Now, I think there is a sense of, you know, you know to your core, like, what who you are and where you want to go. But I think there’s this, there’s an evolution that has to happen. And some of that is, you know, you know. You have to try things on. You have to figure out, like, what is your truth? I think a lot of this, our journey, in general, in life, is figuring out those truths for ourselves. And so you may take something on, you may sit with it for a bit, try it on, and be like, Ah, no, that’s not it. That’s that’s actually what happened with the degree, because I came out with this industrial engineering degree. But my truth is I’m a creative. Like I am, I like being with artists. I like hanging out with creative people. Like, that’s where I shine. And so I’m in this space where I’m, because I’m smart, like, right? So I have, (inaudible), um, and I can apply it in a very, in a very structured way, right? It, maybe it’s because I’m a musician and all that stuff. But anyway, so I can do that, but that’s not where my passion is. That’s not where my love is, that’s where I feel alive. And so I took that on outside of school to, again, because that’s that’s kind of the path, like you’re supposed to get this degree, you’re supposed to do this thing. And I’m going through this process of figuring out how to apply this, these learnings, this degree, and being in an environment where I’m like, Oh, this is not me. This is not who I am. It’s not where I want to be. How the hell did I end up here? What is happening? Right? (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. I may, I may be very intimate with this experience, going from being a theater degree, like, major, to moving to Des Moines and joining the insurance industry and being like, I don’t even, I don’t know what a cubicle is. I don’t know if I want to be able to, literally, in my interview, my boss was at the time, said, Do you think you’ll be able to sit still in a cubicle like, I don’t know? Let’s try it. I’ll bring some energy, at least, like, and then realizing, oh, everyone just talks about what was on reality TV show. We don’t have these, like, deeper conversations and explorations about life and, right, you know, creative projects and that. So I wondered about what that transition was like, hearing you go from music to industrial engineer. I was like, Oh, that’s a transition.
Shanté Gordon
What’s funny is, if I was paying attention, I would have realized that everything I did outside of school was creative in nature.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.
Shanté Gordon
Lik,e I was dancing, I was, I was doing, I was still playing, right? I was, I was, I took partial credits in, like, the orchestra because I just wanted to play, like, everything I did was creative in nature and but I had this, this degree, and I was like, I just need to finish again, because it’s expensive. I need to get out. It’s a good work, but, but when I, when I, after I graduated, and I spent some years in supply chain, and it just got to the point where I was like, I can’t do this anymore. I, again, this is not who I am. I’m this. And so I had to slowly make that transition to try to get back to me. And so that’s when I started again, extracurricular activities are all in the arts. I’m dancing at like Joel Hall, which is, which is kind of like the Alvin Ailey of dance, dance (inaudible) in Chicago. So I’m dancing there, right? I’m, I’m working with underground musicians and artists, just like getting in that scene in Chicago, which is really cool, helping out on theater productions. Like I’m in that, and I have this little silly job over here, (laughter) and eventually I’m like, I don’t want to do this anymore, so I leave. And oddly enough, I was trying to get fired, and they wouldn’t fire me, trying to do everything I could to get fired. (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
I have so many questions now. I don’t, we don’t need to know what you tried. I mean, does that to how great you are?
Shanté Gordon
I would get in there late and leave early and but even in that, even when I was there, I was still doing what I needed to do, because I can’t just, like, just –
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s who you are.
Shanté Gordon
Exactly, but definitely not doing, definitely at about a good 55% (laughs) maybe. But anyway, so that, that to me, was like, listen, you’re not even -you’re so far outside of yourself, like, you’re not even like, because your value is hard work like, that’s a value. Like your your your values are, if your work ethic is strong for you, how you show up, the level of care that you put into things. Those are values, and you’re not even living that something’s wrong here. Something’s really wrong. And that’s when I was like, Oh, I gotta, I can’t do this, because I’m not, I’m not, I’m out of I’m out of integrity with myself. And so I transitioned away, and wanted to go deeper into the creative space. And so started doing that, got my graduate degree in arts, entertainment and media management, and then worked more with the creatives of Chicago, until I moved to New York. And then I worked in the music industry for about eight years in New York, like in it, in it, before moving to Florida. So, and then that being in that space was even crazier, because I, as most of us know, the industry is pretty ruthless entertainment, specifically music, and you just, you see a lot even more things related to gender and race and power and just lack of consciousness around the impact of language and music and behavior and how that can really again, the impact that can have on someone and their lives, and just just complete disregard for that. It was, it was very it was hard. And then so you find yourself again, outside of integrity, doing things that just trying to cope, you know. A lot of indulgences, a lot of excess, just trying to like, stay sane until you get to the point where you’re just like, again, not who I am. This is not sustainable. I have to do something different, but unfortunately, not getting to that point, I guess soon enough, until before, like, things start to break down physically.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shanté Gordon
That’s what happened. So that’s what happened. Like the burnout happened. My mental health was not good. My physical health was not good. Things were not great. And it was just like, yet again, we gotta pivot.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, so there’s, I mean, this is part of why I was so excited to have you on the show, is to hear your thoughts around and how you approach, right? This idea of of living with integrity and resourcing yourself, which is something that I am going to ask you to define here in a minute, but I’m curious. So as you’ve been on this journey of trying to live in a way of greater health, well being, I hate the word balance, but like with a greater intentionality maybe, what has been your observation? You know, because burnout is it’s such a prevalent topic, it’s still really prevalent. It’s still needed, and there’s, there’s no one reason for burnout. But I know that I’ve experienced and I know that I’ve seen people experience that burnout can accelerate when you’re, to use your language, which I really love that language, you’re living outside yourself. You don’t even, sometimes you don’t even realize it, because you’re just like, I’m just doing what, I’m just doing what everyone else is doing. Because I don’t, maybe I don’t know any different. Maybe I didn’t know I could question it. That was my journey when I was, like, in my 20s and even my early 30s, is like, I didn’t know I could question things. I didn’t, you know, I just showed up and I did the I overworked, and I, you know, was being asked to do something that was not, was, and I didn’t realize it at the time, right? But it contributed to a really significant, really significant burnout crash for me. So I’m curious, like, when you, or all the work you’re doing, let me simplify my question, what are the different factors you see contribute? Whether it’s a range of like, it could be this. It could just be because you’re overworked. It could be because of – paint that spectrum for me.
Shanté Gordon
Wow, I think, I think it really, it stems from this sense of, you get this little thing that’s like, Huh. Something isn’t quite right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Shanté Gordon
Or, you know, a little niggling that happens in their stomach or in your or in your or in your throat, right? Those little things that come up and you’re just like something’s trying to poke at you. Right? And, and we, we sense it. Everyone senses it. We get, everyone gets those hits. It’s whether or not you pay attention to them, right. And I think from that point you have to interrogate it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Shanté Gordon
Or not. But if we want to be well, right, if we want to to live a healthy life, we have to kind of sit with that a bit and say, okay, so what, what are the things that could possibly be bringing this up for me? Is it my work? Is it my personal life? Is it all the things combined? Is it a relationship in a specific part of my, like, what are the things that are, and it requires a level of of wanting more for yourself and being willing to slow down. But to your point that you made earlier, where it’s like you didn’t even know that you could, it’s like you have to give yourself that kind of permission. And part of the permission is allowing yourself to be able to sit with it, because sometimes we don’t think we can, because it’s uncomfortable, and we don’t listen stuff, and it’s like, I don’t, I don’t want to question this is just easier for me to go through it and do it. Because, you know, then I don’t have to acknowledge some things about myself that maybe I’m not ready to acknowledge, or maybe I don’t want to acknowledge things about others that I’m not ready to acknowledge, right? So it’s like, it’s, it’s, but you know that something’s off?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Shanté Gordon
I don’t think anyone can deny that something’s off, either because you feel it, or you’re getting the feedback. Right? Like, either you feel the feedback inside or the external feedback, where someone’s kind of being like, hey, so I don’t know. You okay, what’s going on over here? Or you’re getting this kind of, you’re getting the information, but you’re not putting the dots together. So I think it starts with that. And then, you know, burnout in general, if folks aren’t really familiar or are questioning whether or not they’re experiencing it. It’s just a general, it’s like an energetic thing. You don’t have the energy you once had. You don’t have the work product or whatever, whatever you know you’re used to, whatever level you’re used to performing at, just isn’t there. There’s a lack of engagement. You just, you know, you’re just kind of blah, right? And, and, and so with within all of that, there’s just a dampening of the spirit, it feels like. And so you when you’re, the goal is to, I don’t even know if it’s a goal, but it’s constant, like, Okay, I gotta say, I gotta be with myself in a way that allows me to see myself. Where am I going? How am I? How am I moving through these things? What’s showing up for me? And it’s not an easy thing to do. Um, you know, I’m not sure if I’m, if I’m answering even your question or going in the direction you want to go in? But burnout is really tricky. It’s really tricky, and but it, it, I don’t know if it can be avoided, because there’s an aspect of it that maybe you need it. Because how else do you know that you need some redirection, or you need to make other choices, or you need right like, if you can view it as an opportunity, if you can view it as something that’s beneficial, even if, when it’s tough, there’s, there’s real magic in it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So that’s that is, that’s such a gift of perspective that can be really hard in the moment to consider. I remember when I got out of my first like career in insurance, completely. I mean, just physical burnout, mental burnout. Moved into this amazing company, amazing job. Within six months, I developed panic disorder, which, no surprise, because I remember telling my therapist, I was like, What the hell? Why did it come up the last eight years when I was like, working 60, 70, hours, like, I’m in this amazing job. I’m doing the work I want to do. I have this amazing support. She’s like, that is why. (laughs) Like, your body is finally. But I remember, after having just a really, really challenging series of panic attacks, my friend Shadley said, Maybe this is what you need to shed and break open, to open you up for something different. And I remember being like, well, this fucking sucks, you know, and I but I think that’s really, I think it’s provocative, what you’re sharing of maybe we can’t avoid it. Maybe that’s part of the trying on. Maybe that’s part of going down a path and going, you know what? Maybe, maybe this isn’t for me and I, and I also love that visual of the niggling, a little niggling feeling says, like, I’ve never heard that word, or you describe it. I was like, that is very accurate.
Shanté Gordon
It’s exactly what it is.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s just this little, yeah, why? Why do you feel like, and I don’t, this is a this isn’t an answer. I’m just philosophically, I’m curious about your perspective, why does it feel like it has to be such an act of courage for people, such an act of bravery to say, You know what? This is actually who I am, or this is what’s important to me. I mean, I’m sitting here. I know Nick is listening to this right now, right? This has been part of his journey on mental health. Of like, he is a creative, right? He’s not this career driven guy, and that was really, and I’m not sharing anything he hasn’t already talked about previously on the show. So I want to be really, I’m always thoughtful about sharing other people’s stories, but it is like this act of rebellion against the system to say, You know what this is, this is going to be me. This is how I’m going to show up in the world, and, and it, and it could be something as simple as I remember when I first started speaking, I had somebody go, Sarah, people won’t take you seriously unless you’re wearing a suit, and, and, and unfortunately, I was at a point in my life where I was like, Well, we’ll see about that. (laughs) But, like, I found, I found myself, but then, but even then, it was like this act of rebellion, just in not wearing a matching suit, right? So why? Why? Why Shanté answered the question of the world, why does it have to be so much effort to discover and just own who you are? I mean, again, I have thoughts, but.
Shanté Gordon
Why is it so much effort? Gosh.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s an act of bravery sometimes for folks, isn’t it?
Shanté Gordon
It is. It is. And I think, as you’re talking, what comes up for me is that there is so many, so many images coming into my head, like, one is like a diamond, right? And the pressure the diamond has to to withstand in order to become a diamond, like the piece of the is it coal, carbon, whatever it is, in order to become, right? Like there’s so much pressure and resistance and tension, and just fire and heat and all these things that you have, and just to, just to shine the way you need to shine. And then also, if you think of like a sculpture, you have like a block of whatever material it is, and you have a sculptor who’s who’s creating this beautiful sculpture out of it. That’s a lot of hard work. And it’s a process, and it’s a lot of refinement, and it’s a lot of – it’s, it’s, it’s kind of the point, because that’s, to me, that’s like the journey of it’s, it’s self actualization, it’s, it’s, it’s remembering who you are, it is, it is, it is being authentic and in your own truth in such a way that is in service to others, so that others can do the same? Because I think that’s that’s whole point of us. And then we’re probably going into this very like esoteric –
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it.
Shanté Gordon
Thing right now, right? That is part of the journey, that’s part of why we’re here, is to experience that and learn what we need to learn in becoming or remembering who we are, right? So it’s like, it can’t be easy. Otherwise, what’s the point? Like? Would there be value there? Like, you need, you need some challenge, you need, you need some rain, you need sunshine, you need all those things in order for it to make sense. And I think it wouldn’t be as satisfying. It wouldn’t be as satisfying if you if you were just allowed to, like, if you didn’t have to go through some challenges, if you didn’t have to, because I know for me, being able to share my story the way I share it feels so much more rewarding because my background, I, there’s pride in it now, because of it, because of the journey, right? And I think that, I think that there’s, there’s, you just value it more when you have to struggle, struggle, right? When you go through some things, I think that you just end up, it just, it’s sweeter. It makes it sweet. So.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I, you know, I love all of this.
Shanté Gordon
(chuckles)
Sarah Noll Wilson
I, I again, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s holding different perspectives on it. Of, maybe the goal isn’t for it to be easy. The goal is just to make progress. Maybe the goal isn’t, you know, and, and 100%, I mean, that’s been my personal experience of when I look back at some of the hardest things I went through that have shaped me. I wouldn’t have, you know, in the moment, I didn’t want it to be so hard, but, but looking back, it’s like I wouldn’t be who I am without it. You said something very quickly, though, that I want to go back to and highlight, which is that idea of when you are in your authentic truth you do show others and give, whether it’s giving permission or role modeling or be, you know, and that’s something that, I mean, that was something I needed to see, right? Because when I first started, I was like, Well, nobody’s questioning it. And it took somebody pushing me to be like, Why are you I’m like, Can I, can I question this? Can I, can I do something different and and I think about, I feel very fortunate and a privileged situation that I have been rewarded since going like, creating the company we have been rewarded for being ourselves, right? We have been and so, so then people will come up to me and say, Oh, I just like, I just love how real you are, or I love how authentic you guys are. And what I realized is, like, they’re not actually saying that about us. They’re saying that like, I always, I always receive that whether it’s right or wrong is like, that’s something they want for themselves, you know? And so I love that. I love that idea that part of it is a gift for you, and part of it is to show other people, like, yeah, this, this – who are you now? Who? Who of you needs to be revealed or pressed into some amazing, precious gem. So I love all that imagery.
Shanté Gordon
Yes, that’s, it’s great because it’s, it’s that, you know, we’re, we’re wired for connection, right? And we’re and we, we, as much as some of it. I mean, this society makes us, you feel like it’s all about the individual and pull yourself up by your bootstraps and all that. Okay, that’s but we are community oriented folks. We need one another. We need connection, and we need community. And so without that, we just, we don’t have, speaking of resources, right? Like, I know we want to get into that conversation, we just that is also a resource, right? Like the the energetic connection that you can have from someone, the meta, the physical, the spiritual, like these things that help to pour in, and you can pour in others that allow all of us to rise. Like it’s, it’s really important for that, and so we have to, we, if we can’t do it for ourselves, and if we’re very service oriented people, then maybe that’s the motivation we need, right? To be able to to go through whatever changes we need, to go through whatever discomfort we need to endure in order to, you know, move through our journey how we need to, maybe that’s not fully for ourselves, maybe it is for others, and that we’re just a part of the evolution of other as well.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, what this idea of community, something that was coming up as you were talking about it, that I hadn’t thought about before is, especially in American culture, because we are such a, the message is individualism. The message is, that I find for myself, and I find with other people, they don’t even know what it’s like to be in true community with other humans. And I don’t mean that, and I’m not saying that from a judgment place, but when you haven’t experienced it, and I can’t help but wonder, with your Caribbean background, I mean, I don’t know a ton about the culture, but my assumptions and my observations are, it’s very community driven, and, you know, and I think about that for my own experience, you know, my family is, we’re really tight and and I love that. But then when my brother, my brother, married an amazing woman from Mexico, and you’re like, Oh, damn, that’s what community can look like, right? Like that, that sense of family is any anyone you meet is now, like you’re part of the family now, and it is this deep, deep connection. And so, I mean, this is going to be a conversation for another day, but how do we even cultivate and help people understand, you know, community isn’t just a neighbor. It’s just not, it’s just not living next to each other. It, I mean, to use your language, it’s pouring into each other. It’s being there for each other. It’s being able to, you know, support each other and examine life together, and all of all of this, we just do it together.
Shanté Gordon
Mm hmm, yeah, it is, it’s, it’s action oriented. It’s an active type of thing. It’s not, community just isn’t, it just doesn’t happen.
It’s not a noun. It takes, it’s not. You have to, it’s work. You have to put in work. You have to be intentional about it, about building it. And, you know, you you – listen, not everyone’s for you. You’re not every for everyone, right? Like, so you find your people. But even in that you have, there is some work that’s required in order for it to, in order to really find true community. And so it’s like you got to define that for yourself and what that looks like based on your values, based on your boundaries, based on, you know, all those things. But it really is. It takes a lot of work, and, you know, but we need it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Shanté Gordon
There are plenty of studies that show that if we, without the social connection, without we don’t last very long. Our quality life suffers, and so it’s really important for us to to really prioritize that. I don’t, I don’t know if in this country really prioritize community the way we should. It’s funny, you mentioned like your your your family members, my nephew married a Mexican American girl, and she’s wonderful, and we went to Ensenada for his 30th birthday. And language barrier all the way, like, understand. But when I tell you, there was such connection and community and everyone and family, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah!
Shanté Gordon
And it was like we laughed so much and we had such a great time. Again, no actual words were exchanged that we could understand, but we still had the best time with one another, because we just there was a shared value system. There’s a shared there’s shared energy, there’s shared like that connection and, but it took us being open and willing to connect in that way, and I think that’s that’s people don’t really realize. Also it’s a two way street. As much as you want someone to be to be open for you, you have to be open for others, and that can be tough in the world.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, all right, so I want to make sure that we talk about the gift you gave us all of resourcing yourself. So when we were when, when Teresa and I met with you and Natalie and we were just chatting, we, I think we were talking about self care. I don’t even remember what we were talking about, but you introduced to us this language of resourcing yourself, and I have to tell you that that has become such a gift for us. So we constantly ask, you know, if we know we’re going into a busy time, if we know that somebody’s sick, what, it doesn’t even matter, right? It’s not even challenging. But just what are you doing to resource yourself? And I wanted to tell you this story. I was working with a client, an executive coaching client, who their company was going through a lot of lot of leadership change. There was a lot of loss of what the culture was, to what it was becoming. And they were, they were in a really, really tough spot, and I was talking to them about just what, what is, what do they need to be intentional about, as far as resourcing themselves. At first they were confused by it, you know, and then we talked about it, and then it was like a month later, they came back and said, I understand now. I understand now.
Shanté Gordon
That’s big.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Because when I spend time with my kids, that’s resourcing myself. Because when my partner and I were able to have time together, that was resourcing myself. So, so I want to share the ripple effect, not only with our company, but also with our clients. So thank you for that.
Shanté Gordon
Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And what does it mean to, how would, what does it mean to resource yourself, and how is that different than this idea of self care?
Shanté Gordon
Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that question, and thank you for sharing that story with me that’s that’s really powerful, and I have to give really, like props and credit to like a lot of the wellness work that I do and being in those spaces, because that’s where the idea comes. That’s where I was introduced to this idea in that in that space. And so resourcing, if you think about the word itself, is, what do you need? Material, asset, money, whatever it is, energy, whatever it is that you need in order to function, in order to operate, in order to, like, be able to do something. And so when you resource yourself, it’s that idea of, okay, so there’s something that needs, that I need. I need to something I’m not at a full tank, or I’m not, you know, in a place to really be able to accomplish what I want to accomplish. And I need something, it could be internal or external, right? Because we can resource ourselves internally as well. Meditation, walks, like those kinds of things. Or it could be external, like you said, connecting to loved ones, animals, nature, etc. And so it really is about, okay, what is, what is the thing that I need in this moment that will allow me to operate, that’ll allow you to function? I’m not feeling like I’m doing it at my best right now, there’s a bit of a gap. How do we build a gap, right? And so to me, that’s what resourcing is, from a from a from a distinction with the self care aspect of it. I mean, they’re similar, right? Like it is. It is a form of self care because you’re like, I know I have, I’m not full right now, and so I think, but the self care to me, hmm, it feels sometimes like it’s an option, where, where resourcing to me feels more like it’s a necessity.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Shanté Gordon
Like if I don’t have gas in my car, my car doesn’t run. It’s still, a car is still gonna but it can have wheels, it can have everything else, but without the gas, it’s not going anywhere. It’s a bit more urgent.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I was gonna say how, how it’s shifted for me is resourcing has put me into a much more proactive mindset, whereas self care was more reactive, right? Self care was to heal instead of to prevent, and even just to minimize and and so for me, that’s, that’s the shift, right? I mean, you know, language can become semantic, and so it’s whatever resonates for people. But there’s something about this idea of, right I I’m not going to be able to make this journey if I do not fill up my tank now. And so, like, I can’t, I can’t run this car into the ground. So it’s, (inaudible)
Shanté Gordon
It’s not something that can be played with, right? It’s not an option. It’s not okay, ah okay, well, maybe I’ll. No, no, no, no, no. You, this is, you got to do this. Like, this is, this is something, and I love that idea that’s proactive and it’s prioritized. We deprioritize self care all the time, like, oh, yeah, I should, maybe I, maybe I could find time to do that. No, you, this is something that has to happen in order for my life to function. And so to me, resourcing is a lot more powerful for that reason. Um, and it takes away some of the – sometimes self care can be a little woo, woo. Like people, over think about it. Where it’s like, ah, that’s, that’s for those types of people, we sort, I think everyone can find a way to relate to to having to resource themselves.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Shanté Gordon
Anyone, any, people with male, with like, you know, masculine energy, people with feminine energy, people with a hybrid of everything, like you can find a way to connect with this idea of resourcing yourself and find what’s appropriate for you,
Sarah Noll Wilson
What’s one of your favorite ways to resource yourself that you’ve discovered along the way?
Shanté Gordon
Gosh, there’s so many. I love to dance. So dance is always a way to for me to to get my energy up and to release all the chemicals, the feel good chemicals in the body and the brain. So that’s, that’s one of my favorites. And then the beach. I love the beach, being with, standing by the water. Thankfully, I live in a place where it’s not that far away for me to get to. But, man, I tell you, I get there and I literally just drop. (laughs) In, say, like, 30 minutes an hour, I am I’m back. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, it’s such a, well, I think that’s the other thing I love about resourcing, is it’s, it’s find your own manual, right? What is it for you? And, you know, for me, it’s, I don’t have bodies of water. I’m landlocked. You know, Iowa doesn’t have many. Most of the bodies of water are man made, but my backyard is like this little mini forest, and so just being able to sit out on my deck is the, just to just be out in nature. Or even, yeah, like, I think that’s the thing that I’ve really pushed myself and my colleagues, and I’ve been pushing each other, and Nick and I have been pushing each other and with clients, is just to be a little bit unapologetic about it. You know.
Shanté Gordon
That is the word, Sarah. It’s, it’s giving permission. I love that. It’s like, I get to make the rules, guys, this is my life. I make the moves. Of course, listen, there, yes, there are things, there are boundaries, there are systems. There are, you know, you’re still working within a framework of some but there is flexibility in that. And you get to choose. You get to write your own adventure. You know my favorite nursery rhyme, I’m going to share it with you. It’s a row, row, row, your boat gently down the stream, merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily. Life is but a dream. That’s how I feel about it. It’s like there’s an ease that can, that you can, you can exist with, right? Like, if you can just go down, you can merrily, like it doesn’t have to be a struggle. (laughs) It doesn’t have to be so hard, and life is but a dream. You can create, literally, whatever you want to create for yourself, right? If you allow yourself to be in that space. And again, I don’t want to diminish people’s struggles. I don’t want to diminish, –
Yeah.
You can always give yourself a little bit of a timeout to imagine and get creative, and then give yourself some freedom in your mind, right? And then come back to whatever you need to come back to. But there is, but even just doing that little bit of thing over time you do it enough, things will start to shift.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Shanté, I love talking with you. We’re definitely –
Shanté Gordon
I love talking with you too.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We’re gonna need to have, like a quarterly conversation with Shanté and talk about all this stuff.
Shanté Gordon
I’m up for it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, Shanté, since it’s the first time you’ve been on the show, we always ask all of our first guests this question, and it is, what is a conversation you’ve had with yourself or someone else that was transformative?
Shanté Gordon
Well, wow, I talked to myself a lot. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Do it. I love it!
Shanté Gordon
I’m gonna go ahead and own that. And I think it is a phrase that I’ve heard, I think comes from the Buddhist, Buddhist teachings where it the phrase is, Pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. And so I’m constantly like replaying that in my head if I find myself getting a little too caught up, because (inaudible) is like, always that’s like, my my goal in life is to kind of be really fairly even, not robotic, but still, like not wading all over the place. And so for me, it’s always that reminder of, hey, life is about going through some challenges that’s going to happen, but don’t contribute to your own, like, suffering. Like, don’t add to it and make it worse because of things that you are doing, right? So be mindful of that. So I think that’s the thing for me that’s helped me to really, like, Okay, pull it back down, shift a bit. It’s okay. You’re going to be okay. Everything is temporary, right? Like it’s going to move through slow passing, right? But you don’t have to make it a hurricane.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Just row that boat gently down the stream. Shanté, I am, I am forever going to associate you with that. (laughs) I love it so much. Okay Shanté, you’re amazing, if people want to connect with you and learn more about the work that you do, the work that you and Natalie and the crew do at The Norfus Firm. What is the best way for people to connect with you?
Shanté Gordon
Well, for The Norfus Firm, it’s thenorfusfirm dot com and then all the socials are there. If you go to the bottom of that page. For me on Insta, it’s my name, Shanté S Gordon, LinkedIn, I think is the same, either Shanté Gordon, or Shanté S Gordon, like, that’s pretty much it across all the socials. I’m primarily on LinkedIn and Instagram. So yeah, you can find me there.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. You’re such, you are such a gift. I’m so glad that we were able to have you on. Thanks for saying yes.
Shanté Gordon
Yeah! Thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun. I really appreciate it. I love talking to you.
Likewise, likewise.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been Shanté Gordon, and as you can hear from the conversation, I simply adore this woman, and there’s a lot of insights. I’m still chewing on that whole idea of maybe the goal isn’t to completely avoid burnout, but maybe that’s just what has to happen in order for us to pivot. I don’t know how I feel about that yet, but it’s certainly provocative. And we’d love to hear from you, send us what resonated for you or what came up for you at podcast at sarahnollwilson dot com where I read and respond to every email that we receive. And if you’ve been a listener of the show for a while, or if this is your first episode and you want to support the show, there’s a couple of ways you can do it. If you haven’t already, please be sure to rate, review, and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us increase exposure so that we continue to have really great conversations, like the one we did today. And if you’re interested in supporting the team financially, you can do that by becoming a patron. You can go to patreon dot com slash conversationsonconversations, where your financial support will support the team, but you’ll also get early access to episodes that are ad free, and you’ll get limited edition Conversations on Conversations swag. And who doesn’t want that?
Speaking of the team, let’s give them some love. To our producer, Nick Wilson, our sound editor, Drew Noll, our transcriptionist, Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant, Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. And just a final big, big hug thank you to Shanté Gordon for bringing her insights, her heart, her wisdom and just being her. Well, my friends, this wraps up this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others we can change the world. So until next week, please be sure to rest, rehydrate, and we’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.