Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Tiana Sanchez as they examine the role of consistency and integrity in leadership, with real talk on how organizations can truly uphold commitments to diversity and inclusion.
ABOUT
Tiana Sanchez, CEO and Founder of TSI, LLC, a Woman-Owned Small Business, brings over a decade of expertise as a Corporate Trainer and Business Consultant to leaders in the public and private sectors. With a #1 best-selling authorship and a globally recognized podcast, Tiana has earned acclaim for her insights, including a KTLA Morning News feature on workplace empathy. As an Award-Winning Executive Coach, she utilizes her diverse management background in Retail, Food and Beverage, and Finance to elevate people development. Leading Tiana Sanchez International, named “Best Executive Coaching” Program by HR.Com, Tiana specializes in delivering world-class leadership programs, keynotes, and seminars. Her tailored Diversity Audits and Pulse Surveys empower organizations with equitable practices, showcased through partnerships with renowned entities like Sempra, Metropolitan Water District, Sony Pictures Entertainment, and various government agencies. Tiana’s impactful workshops at esteemed educational institutions underscore her commitment to elevating organizational effectiveness. Armed with a Psychology and Business Management background, Tiana is a sought-after speaker, contributing author, and dedicated advocate for sustainable leadership development.
SHOW NOTES
Website: www.tianasanchez.com
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/tianasanchez
Instagram: www.instagram.com/likearealbosslady
YouTube: www.youtube.com/@TianaSanchez
The New C-Suite: Civil Leadership in Action: https://a.co/d/7KLVQGU
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations, where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson, and joining me today is my new friend Tiana Sanchez, who I had the privilege of watching her keynote talking about how we can rethink leadership, and I was so excited that she said yes to coming on the show. So let me tell you a little bit about Tiana before we jump into our conversation. Tiana Sanchez is a CEO and founder of TSI LLC, a woman owned small business. She brings over a decade of experience as a corporate trainer and business consultant to leaders in the public and private sectors. As a number one best selling author and a globally recognized podcast host, Tiana has earned acclaim for her insights. She’s an award winning executive coach. She utilizes her diverse management background in retail, food and beverage, and finance to elevate people development. Her program milestone was named Best Executive Coaching Program by HR.com Tiana specializes in delivering world class leadership programs, keynotes and seminars. Her tailored diversity audits and pulse surveys empower organizations with equitable practices showcased through partnerships with renowned entities like Sony Pictures Entertainment, Sempra and the Metropolitan Water District. Tiana’s impactful workshops at esteemed educational institutions underscore her commitment to elevating organizational effectiveness. Armed with a psychology and business management background, Tiana is a sought after speaker, contributing author and dedicated advocate for sustainable leadership development. Tiana, welcome to the show!
Tiana Sanchez
Well, thank you. That was quite a welcome. I appreciate it. Glad to be here.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m, I’m so excited, and this, what’s unique about this is that normally I have some type of relationship with someone, so you and I are going to know each other, but I’ll just get to tell everyone why I invited you on the show and why I’m so excited to be in conversation. Like I said, I had a privilege of seeing you speak, and there was just, there’s so many ways that you spoke to the realities of what we were facing. And you know, from, from the idea of, from the idea of, how do we create more community centered? How do we think about leadership from a civility perspective? All of that. But there’s, before we get into that, I’m jumping the gun because I’m really excited to have you. Tiana, what else do you want us to know about you?
Tiana Sanchez
Oh my gosh, um, I’ll start off with with the funny, with a fun fact, I’m an ex Hot Dogger. And your listeners are probably like, What the heck is an ex Hot Dogger? Yeah. So I used to work at a gourmet fast food restaurant, which would probably be the equivalent to, like, an In and Out, if you have that. But instead of burgers, it is corn dogs. And I – Yeah. And I started there when I was 16 years old, and I started managing. That was my first opportunity to become manager at 17 years old, and it was predominantly ran by women. So there were, it was my first introduction to female leadership. And I worked there for about seven, almost eight years, and had just a wealth of knowledge and experience, and that, many people don’t know, really helped, I believe, build and lead the trajectory of my career and where I am today, with that early onset experience of a women led organization.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, I have so many questions. First, I just have to say I knew I liked you, and now I love you. I love corn dogs, and I love that this is part of your story. Now, (laughs) were they hand dipped, or were they frozen? Like, what kind of I mean? Because I’m I mean, were they are we talking real hand dipped?
Tiana Sanchez
We are talking, Sarah, real. Like, I can’t even tell you the recipe because, like I am, I’m bound by secrecy. But it was an old family recipe from our founder, and it was like a corn meal, but it had all these ingredients. And then, coupled with that, we had fresh lemonade. There was a very unique way that we made lemonade, and it became like the brand, the staple, over, you know, years. I want to say it’s 75 plus years old now. So no, these were very fresh. And I remember years later, after I became an entrepreneur, and I completely left that job, like years later, I went back to a location they were celebrating, like one of the anniversaries, and I was like, Hey, I used to work here. Can I come back there and dip a hot dog? And they let me, and it was so cool, because I thought I was a little rusty, but when you know it, you just pick it – it’s like a bike.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right back into it. (laughter)
Tiana Sanchez
Right back up.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay.
Tiana Sanchez
Yes, and it was fun.
Sarah Noll Wilson
This is not a critical question for our audience, but I’m so curious. Do you have strong opinions, or do you only eat those corn dogs like to when do have you. Have you, like, did you have your fill of them? Or you’re like, I have opinions about what makes a good corn dog, because there is such a thing as a good corn dog and not a good corn dog. I had no idea that this. I love it.
Tiana Sanchez
Oh no. It’s a science. It’s a definitely not, do not like frozen and there definitely was this, the circumference. Let me get scientific. The circumference of the batter around the hot dog is extremely important. You don’t want it too thick, because it won’t cook all the way through, right, and it’s too bready. But you don’t want it too thin. You got to have that right balance. So no, it’s definitely and now I’m plant based, so I definitely eat more of the, you know, plant based hot dogs, if they’re available, and I they are actually, so, yeah, but there is a science.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. Okay, so knowing that you were working at, like, at such a young age in what is a really intense industry. I mean, any kind of food industry has very unique challenges. What were some of the key lessons that you pulled from that time, particularly from the leaders that you had the privilege of working under?
Tiana Sanchez
The women leaders that I worked under were, the environment was very family oriented. It was only my second job when I had started working there, and so I certainly didn’t realize that I was an anomaly coming into an environment that was predominantly women led. I saw people of color, I saw people rise to levels of leadership and then get promoted and so forth. And didn’t realize that that really wasn’t the case outside of this environment. But it was also very much like in the mall, like, I’m a Gen Xer, and we grew up, you know, heading to the malls. That was your place, that’s where you went after school, that’s where you went on the weekends. And so the foot traffic in that environment at that time was very high. And so it wouldn’t be till years later, as in their internet online spending, the decrease of foot traffic in malls would start to impact how these kind of small restaurant chains would sustain themselves. But I certainly learned early on about management, about women in leadership positions, balancing PNL statements and really being in a family environment.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. How? What was that? What was that transition like when you moved out of that and realized that’s not how so many other industries operate?
Tiana Sanchez
Oh, reality check hit me pretty, pretty quickly. I do believe though, I’m a pretty assertive individual and I and I, even though it was a reality check, I just couldn’t accept that that wasn’t going to be the way. Like I was introduced, that was almost like how you were born and raised, right, how you were born and raised. It’s hard to change those ideals, because that’s what you were born into. And I was raised in an environment that celebrated women, that celebrated people of color, that celebrated that, that rise to leadership. There was no limitation. The sky was the limit. And when I left, and especially when I landed in the financial industry, it was, it was rough, because there was these types of, I don’t want to say clicks, but there were certainly methods of leadership styles, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Factions.
Tiana Sanchez
Yes, that I wasn’t accustomed to. And even though I rose in that environment as well, it definitely didn’t feel the same. It felt forced in some ways. It felt like there was definitely a struggle where the other environment felt like I was supported, I was valued. This one didn’t always feel like that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. It’s, you know, we just had a really fantastic interview with a woman. Her name’s Shanté Gordon, and one of the things we were talking about was just her transition of moving from Miami, where she was exposed to so much diversity and coming from a Caribbean background, to then going to Northwestern in Chicago, and this having to figure out who she was and the system that wasn’t made for her, right? And this and that, and that struggle and that is something that when you, when you’re part of that, like dominant group, you don’t realize the cost, the effort, the consciousness, the assimilation, the choice of assimilation or not, that that people go through. How? So talk to me about what was your journey then to doing the work you’re doing now. So it’s clear, you know, just in talking with you, you’re a very reflective person. You’re paying attention to things. You’re noticing patterns. How has, what was your journey to the work you’re doing now?
Tiana Sanchez
It started early, right? Started the 16, 17, when I worked at Hot Dog on a Stick, which is the name of the company.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I was going to ask you that.
Tiana Sanchez
I don’t think I ever gave it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We gotta give it’s name.
Tiana Sanchez
Yes, Hot Dog on a Stick. But my career really took off, Sarah, when I was working in the financial industry. So I started right on the heels. It was like 2004, right? And then a few years later, you had the financial crisis, 2006, 7, 8, all of that wonderful, good times, right? And I worked at a credit union, and that was one of the companies, I kind of rose up in the ranks. Started off as a branch manager, and then became a regional manager, and then became part of the putting together debriefs for our executive team and board. And at that time, the company started to change, right? Because people were moving away from home loans and companies were falling, and this company decided to go a different path, which was auto loans. Well, nobody knew how to do auto loans at that time, and it felt like we were being set up to fail, in a sense, and the culture at the time just kind of came a little toxic. It felt very high school-ish. There were these, again, you talk about factions like, you know, clickiness, and just didn’t feel that level of support, and I ended up being one of the three – I rose to a regional manager position, and I became laid off. And it was interesting, because I had just come back for maternity leave, and I think, had I, had I, had I picked up my phone because I was getting a call before I was getting on maternity leave, there’s a whole sidebar conversation. But a colleague of mine, who was also a regional manager, had called and said, hey, they’re calling me, and I just got laid off. If they call, don’t answer the phone. And, and I was like, Oh, okay. And, and it kind of, you know, delayed, I think what would be the inevitable, and I can’t say for certain that that was what’s happened to me, obviously, but that was the environment that I was in; when I came back, got the notice, and I was like, well, what have I been doing this whole time? Do I want to go back and work, or do I want to start my own business, equipped with no degree, Sarah, no experience of starting a business, but 90 days later, in 2000, May 2011 I started my business on the heels of being laid off.
Wow. You know, one of the things that, I mean, congratulations, and it’s such a feat too, right? We know most small businesses don’t last past three years, so the fact that you’re, you know, coming up on 15 years is, is fantastic.
Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Thirteen, 14 years, yeah, you’ll be coming up, but still, that’s That’s amazing. One of the things, one of the things you said in your speech, just speaking of that, like, let’s talk about how you talk about culture. One of the ways you described how a company normally approaches culture, I thought was so magnificent and brilliant, and you described it as so often companies are creating a culture thinking of it in terms of almost like Jenga, right? And so the goal is to get as high as you can, but in order to get as high as you can, you’re sacrificing stability. You’re sacrificing, so you’re constantly pulling from the bottom. And I would love to just hear you speak more to that, and you can say it more much more eloquently. And then what you proposed was, how do we think about creating culture from a Lego perspective? So I definitely want to, I want people to hear how you talk about this, because I found myself just going like, Oh man, that’s so, that is so spot on. And, because when we’re constantly just trying, like, how do we get better? How do we get bigger? How do we get taller? There’s usually a serious cost to that.
Tiana Sanchez
Yes, you actually described it very beautifully, so that tells me you were paying attention, and it resonated with you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
As soon as you said it, I was like, I got I gotta write this down. I can’t forget this.
Tiana Sanchez
And I think for many of us, it was like a light bulb moment that just really made sense and clicked. We traditionally have a shareholder capitalistic society where the goal is short term, quick, easy, let’s build, let’s just make that money satisfy the shareholders, and that’s it. And it’s not really a long term strategy. It’s quick fix. It’s grow fast, grow high. And as I was thinking about this culture and having worked since I was 16 years old, and now I’m in my late 40s, I’ve seen a lot of different cultures, and most recently, just thinking of the last four years now coming on the heels of the pandemic and civil unrest and companies making commitments to do certain things, but we now realize maybe they were making those commitments out of convenience as opposed to commitment. And so it was like, Yes, we’re going to do this, and then, oh no, we’re not anymore, and we’re taking things away. And it just reminded me of a Jenga model. I have kids, I have boys, and I actually in front of me is, is our Jenga set, and we’ve played it, you know. And everyone probably listening has played this game. You build up the blocks and you gin, you know, gingerly take the pieces from the bottom, and you build and you grow. And it just really reminded me of how we do approach our our businesses is it’s about growing fast, growing high, getting as big as you can get, stacking, right? Just stacking, stacking, stacking, and then you know you’re pulling from the foundation. When we say pull from the bottom, I don’t mean bottom is bad. I mean bottom is your foundation. Those are your people. Those are the things that your vision, your mission, your core values, that you’ve stood on, and now you’re compromising. Oh, do we really need that in our program to support our core values? Do we really need that, you know, that position and that role? You know, do we really need this kind of training and so we’re compromising and constantly taking from the bottom just to grow high and grow tall. And we all know what happens in Jenga, right? You keep pulling from the bottom or near the bottom, you create a shaky, unstable ground, and eventually it will topple. And that’s what happens in the Jenga model, right? So that was the impetus for that example.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love, I love that visual so much. Because the other thing that had come up for me as I was reflecting on that imagery is, not only are there gaps in your foundation, but now you’re asking things to carry more burden, to sustain it. And whether that is, I mean, it’s obviously people, but it’s usually people who maybe haven’t been there a while, who are doing jobs that are underpaid and underappreciated, and now, now there’s just so much more weight being carried by such fewer people and fewer things. And so I just, I thought that was such a, it was just such an effective visual and related to that, then you offered the perspective of, how do we think of it, less like Jenga and more like Legos? So say more about that?
Tiana Sanchez
Yes, Legos, to me, represents creativity. It represents limitless ideas. It represents a collective of individuals that support a common objective or goal. And I, you know, I again, grew up in an age where you play with Legos. Again, have kids that play with with both –
Sarah Noll Wilson
And stepped on the Legos.
Tiana Sanchez
And stepped on the Legos, and you were like, thought you’re gonna die. I mean, because those things cut in your feet. And I, really what sold it for me. I happen to be flipping through social media, and it was May, May the fourth, right, and the Star Wars, May the Fourth Be with You. And I saw this illustration at Disneyland. They were hosting a Star Wars kind of mural. And they had all of these individual, those little Lego pieces there that you just mentioned. They had numbers on them. They had this huge mural. And each person that would come by the the area, they would be given this Lego with a number, and they would place it on the mural. I mean, this was a massive mural, so you have to imagine, like hundreds of people went by there over a period of a day or two to put this mural together. And I was like, Wow, isn’t that just beautiful, like a collective effort of different people coming together to create this beautiful mural. And then I started looking at, wow, I know there’s, like, some really cool other illustrations that you know, Lego has created. And I started looking at and I’m like, it just reminds me, because there’s a ton of resources that you have to use, people, hours dedicated. And I don’t know about you, but the color, size and shape of Legos are all different.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Tiana Sanchez
Right? dAnd you can rearrange them. They can create new things. And I just started thinking again about how that process sent, as opposed to growing tall and high, it’s about breadth. It’s about growing wide and reaching further. And collectively, everyone thrives. It’s not just about growing high and growing tall. And so when I think of Legos again, I think of that level of creativity and massive breadth that we have to expand our culture and our people collectively in that environment,
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and that was something that you spoke to, which was just this, you know, humans have this unlimited imagination. And you know, one of the things you said, obviously there was a lot that you said that really resonated for me, but one of the things that you said in your speech was, we’re so, we’re so willing to sacrifice our humanity for the dollar, and we’re so willing, and one of the things that – I’ve shared this with a number of people, and I’ve shared this even in conversations, I’ve quoted you in conversations with some of our clients is, and when you are a company that said we value this, or we, we’re committed to X, Y and Z, we’re committed to diversity, equity and inclusion. We are committed to taking care of our team members. We are committed to, and when you back away from that, you know to your point, because now it feels inconvenient. I’ll never forget, (laughs) I think I threw down my pen when you said this. You’re like people feel conned because, and that, I’ve never, I’ve never heard it summed up that way, that when you when you espouse values, when you espouse something you are willing to commit to and you’re so, it’s so easy for you to back away from. Whether people are conscious of it or not. They feel conned or or at the very minimum, go, so what do you actually believe? Or where, where else are you not being honest with me? I just, I would love to, I would love to hear more about that from your perspective, because I just, the word, I mean, the word conned was so provocative for me, and I was like, damn, that, that is how a lot of people feel for a number of reasons. Like, well, you say you value this, but you keep behaving in this way, so I don’t I don’t know who you are now, or I don’t know if I can trust you.
Tiana Sanchez
That, you, again, beautifully said and restated. And I it was really how I was feeling, and I imagine a lot of people were feeling, especially through conversations that I was having, but really, Sarah, it came from how I was truly feeling because we were hopeful, and, you know, a few years ago, and we were like, Okay, people are doing the right things for the right reasons, and yes, you know, we’re making these commitments. And there was this kind of little tiny voice in the back of your head. It’s like, I hope they’re not just checking boxes. I hope this is really a commitment, and they’re not just trying to show face, and they’re not. But I was like, okay, silence that negativity. Silence that voice, you know, I was telling myself, and it’s like, no, there are people that are really dedicated and committed to this, and they they want to do what’s right. And then you started seeing this kind of decline, this deprioritization. You started hearing programs and people’s positions being eliminated, and then the budget started to get cut. And it was not only me, Sarah like for it was me. I remember a couple of my other colleagues that operate in this space, we saw a significant decline –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure, yeah.
Tiana Sanchez
With the type of programs that people were wanting to do, and it was just felt across a lot of different industries and positions, and it felt like, okay, so were you really about it, or were you just trying to say that you were and again, feeling that, that that con, you know? And it’s another C word, you know, we talk about, you know, I use this kind of word, this new C suite. But I use C in many different ways. I talk about culture and change and consciousness and crises, and I kind of use that to piggyback and make these points. And there, we often operate out of crisis, and I challenge folks, and as I and as I did in that talk is like, instead of operating out of crisis, we need to operate out of civility using a civil led mindset.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So, let’s, okay. So, all right, I do need. It’s a missed opportunity if I don’t hear your perspective, because the timing of this conversation for people who are listening, because this will air later. You know, just this last week, SHRM, which is the National Organization for HR, just put out this big announcement that they were removing equity as part of one of thepillars and and you could see, right? I mean, I’m just going to speak from my opinion, not surprised because of the direction that organization had been going in, but that idea of just like feeling conned, or feeling like, you know, like, Who are you actually supporting? Who are you protecting, who are you advocating for, and just, you know, for context for people who may be unfamiliar with it, the reason that they gave for removing equity wasn’t based on any data. It was based on the fact that there was, and I quote, societal backlash and polarization by the use of it. That was one of the reasonings they gave, which we could I’ve already, I continue to state my opinion online about this. There’s, there was always societal backlash. It just wasn’t by the people who are in power, and there was always polarization from the haves and the have nots and who has access. So, I mean, anyway, that’s just my, my personal opinion on that.
Tiana Sanchez
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But like, we’re in the midst of the continuing to shrink and shirk our responsibility for taking care of people and making sure that people have access, so I’m just, I’m just curious to get your thoughts on that, and then I want to get into your model of civility, because I want to make a connection to how SHRM is talking about it.
Tiana Sanchez
Being right oftentimes means being unpopular or doing the right thing often means being unpopular. You have to stand on principle and not stand on popularity.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Phew.
Tiana Sanchez
So with that, there are going to be decisions as leaders that we have to make and causes that we have to stand by, that honestly, we’re going to receive some resistance. We’re going to see some hateration. If you always stand on principle and you do what’s right for the right reasons, and you’re taking care of your people, and you’re having their back, and you’re leading with integrity and humanity, then in my opinion, you are, you will outlast the hateration in those because oftentimes it’s just, it’s a season, it’s a season, it’s a moment in time. It’s what, it’s trendy now. But it’s the people that can withstand this level of resistance, this level of backlash, that really become those great leaders that we remember, that we talk about, and for people that are flip floppy, or, you know, wishy washy and then just don’t stand, or just kind of are caving in, in my opinion, to, again, societal demands. And they’re not necessarily leading by humanity. And what’s tough, Sarah, is a part of me thinks that they’re doing what’s right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Tiana Sanchez
Like, I think there’s a, there’s a part of them that thinks that they’ve been convinced that, nope, no, you know, yep. Let’s take that, let’s take that E out. I feel like, I feel like it is a little this, that, and the other and and then it that outside, external influence has shifted them in a negative way to thinking that it’s the right thing to do. But in my opinion, it’s, it’s not always the case.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I mean, it’s, again, when you think about creating a culture of trust, when you think about creating a culture of safety, that consistency becomes really important. You know, I, as you were talking, I was thinking, you know, there’s organizations I don’t necessarily agree with their principles, but I always know where they stand. I always know where they stand, again, I might not like it, I might not agree with it, but and, and, and when you think about the impact that that has, that impact that that has on the customers you serve, or the team members who are part of it, when you’re constantly shifting. And that’s not to say that there isn’t iteration and there isn’t evolution, there should be when it comes to that, but when it feels like the principles are held way too lightly, right? There’s a there’s a real, there’s a real cost to that in ways that I think organizations don’t always see or understand. You know, my colleague and friend Brandon Springle, he’ll often talk about how so many organizations have identity crisis, because it’s like, this is who they say they are, and then this is how they’re actually behaving. And then people are left with like, well who are you? And and, yeah, and it can be an act of courage to stand on your principles and to fight for for what’s right.
Tiana Sanchez
Yes. I remember when people were making statements online about where they stood early in 2020 or putting banners up on websites and making sure they had the right images displayed. And I remember back then saying that it’s, you show up when no one’s looking.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Tiana Sanchez
When – I shouldn’t have to have a sign across my forehead that says I believe in diversity, equity, inclusion, or, you know, constantly have to tell everybody that I meet. It’s weaved into my DNA. It is about who I am, what we represent. It’s everywhere. It’s in. It’s when you walk into the office. It’s how we greet people, it’s how we converse and interact. I shouldn’t have to display it just to, you know, again, show everyone outside. And so it’s, you show up when no one is looking. It’s like, we can go in the bathroom. And this is probably totally off topic, but –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Nah, I love it. Let’s do it.
Tiana Sanchez
I will find myself, you know, in the restroom, and I’ll see, like a paper towel that has been tossed on the floor. I’m that person. I will pick it up and throw it in the trash. I’ll grab, you know, something, pick it up. No one’s there. No one sees me. But that’s just who I am. I know in my house, I don’t like leaving things disorganized, so I’m going somewhere else. Oh, why not just pick this little thing up, you know, or something like that. So it’s who you are when no one is looking. But the problem is, too many people are looking right now, Sarahl
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Tiana Sanchez
Everybody is looking on social media. So everything is done in the public eye. There seldom is that opportunity, I think, for people to just truly, you know, be who they are in, you know, without having to feel like there’s eyes, and I have to do it this way, so, it’s where we are.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, that’s part of the being intentional and being conscious of it is, you know, that’s something that I was working with a coach. Still, I’m working with her, and she’s fantastic. She’ll listen to this. So Stephanie, hi. (laughs)
Tiana Sanchez
Hi Stephanie.
Sarah Noll Wilson
She’s always like, I heard your shout out. No, but one of the things she pushed me on early on was, are you doing this because you want to make a difference? Are you doing it because you want to be seen as a good white person? And I was just like, well, mother. Darn it.
Tiana Sanchez
Wow.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, you’re right, you know. And and when it comes to your principles and your values and your and again, going back to culture, in that foundation, it should be seen, it should be experienced, just like you said, like, don’t tell me who you are, show me who you are, right? How you, how you treat you know your customer care reps. How you talk about them tells me more about your culture than some banner that you have hung stating your values. So as as you, you know, and again, one of the things I appreciate is that you are putting forth a vision of, how do we think about leadership differently? And you use the word civility. But sometimes that word civility, I see, becomes weaponized from the standpoint of, you know, people will say things like, well, we can have a tough conversation. We can disagree as long as it’s civil. We can we can disagree as long as it’s respectful. And the question I always ask people is like, well, who gets to decide what is civil, what is respectful? But you painted a very different picture of civility. So let’s hear all about your leadership philosophy.
Tiana Sanchez
Yes, we, when I say we, as I have researched this with the hope host of individuals and team to kind of help bring this together. When I thought of civility, I was thinking of it from the from the humanness lens, our responsibility, our ethical leadership practices, our civil responsibilities, how we not only engage and interact with other people. But if I, if you thrive, I thrive. If I thrive, you thrive. And I used kind of the example of a garden, if you remember, in that talk, and when I think of a garden, it’s living, it’s breathing, it’s an organism. And it’s not a machine. It’s not driven by that, you know, automation, necessarily. But everything is thriving and living from the roots of the tree that go deep, the foundation to the branches to the, you know, the flowers, the different types, and you know, you have the sunlight. So kind of, everything is working together. And it’s, again, the breadth of everything, we’re supporting each other. So the civility is not only, again, just humanist, but it’s us working together. And we identify kind of three, I would say, kind of three lanes of this civilly led mindset, if you will, where we talk about collective social responsibility, we talk about creative synthesis, and I should say creative synthesis, and to your point, we talk about weaponizing words, I wanted to bring people into the conversation and not turn them away, because the terminology DE and I was becoming weaponized. And so a unique way creative synthesis is another way of bringing that to the surface, hopefully calling people in and not turning, you know, them away. But we were talking about that creative synthesis, collective social responsibility, and this idea of, I’m going to use servant leadership, I, you know, refer to as something different. But servant leadership, to me, really speaks to a palms down as opposed to palms up. Palms up is give me, give me, give me. Palms down or out is like I’m here to serve, and it just brings about a whole different level of understanding and perspective when we approach things in that way. So again, I’m providing just enough to pique interest. I want to, I want people to really dive into more of this. So I’m giving just enough, just a little, little sneak peeks of insight.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, and I, you know, again, this has been a theme in some of our conversations of that idea of our, to use your word, humaneness, like that, our commitment to each other and and again, it’s just because of the timing of when we’re recording, because they just wrapped with Shanté a half an hour ago, we were talking about, how do we – Uh, she she described community so beautifully. She’s like, it’s not a noun, it’s a verb, it’s an action. And so I’m curious to know –
Tiana Sanchez
Love that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I love that, because I think of, when I think of relationships, I don’t think of, I think of them in the same way, like to be in, to relationship is an act, right? To be in relationship is a choice. Who? Maybe not the question who, but what are examples that you’ve observed or experienced of what this looks like done really well in practice, because one of the things that we have observed in our work with organizations is, and this is not just organizations. This is also, this has also been true of individuals and relationships, when you’ve never experienced what could be possible if you never experienced what it feels like to be in a truly safe relationship where, you know, I can give you feedback, and you’ll be curious with it, and we can we can talk, we can wrestle with the hard stuff, and we’ll both be better for it. Similarly, I think people, we’ve gotten so good, particularly, and again, we have a global audience. I’m just going to speak to American culture. A lot of us have become so good at tolerating whatever level of culture, right? Positive environment, healthy environment, that so many people have never experienced it. So it’s hard to know how to create it. So what are some examples that you’ve seen of it done really, really well?
Tiana Sanchez
Well, one of the first examples, and I talked about it in the talk, and it’s actually an example that I give. One of the examples in the book is when I heard about the organization Patagonia. Now I have to qualify that I don’t work for them. I don’t get paid to mention their name. There’s no tie whatsoever. I just remember being in the audience listening to a speaker talk about this company, and everything that they did there, and everything that I was listening I was like, they do that there? Like, I’ve never heard of that. People can take a break during the middle of the day. There’s childcare for new parents. You can bring dogs to work, and then they supported your cause, if, and those are just a few things, and I was literally in the audience just floored. I said, and I’m looking around, like, is anybody else like thinking this is strange.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Yeah.
Tiana Sanchez
And then I just it. Just sent me on this journey of wanting to understand what it is that they did that other companies at the time, to my knowledge, weren’t really doing. And so I learned a little bit more about their culture. I learned a little bit more about this, this assessment that they, that they did. It’s called a Certified B Corporation, which is also something that I talk about.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right, yeah.
Tiana Sanchez
Which I had never heard about, but there is a rigorous process to becoming a Certified B Corporation. And you have to meet these kind of areas that they focus on, which we talk about in more depth. And that was really kind of the start of like this is a company that has a culture that really values its people, that believes in causes, that believes in the well being to not just saying, Hey, we believe in well being, but, oh, go ahead, take, take the afternoon off, kind of thing. Oh, we believe in philanthropy. But no, we take whatever cause we’re gonna match it. Yep. And we’ve done it like they’re putting their money where their mouth is.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Tiana Sanchez
And it was just a novel thing at the time and to date, you know this B Corp status, we have six to 7 million companies in the United States.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, that’s right. You shared that stat.
Tiana Sanchez
And there was, I think there’s a 80% or something, that have less than 100 employees. But the point being, there’s only 2300 Certified B Corporations out of six to seven million. And which presents to me a huge opportunity. A, do people know about this? B, are they willing if they do know? Because it is a rigorous process, but it’s again, I’m putting my money where my mouth is, and I’m doing it because it’s the right thing to do for the right reasons, and it tells us what you really stand for, and it’s not blatant. And you might have a little Certified B on the corner of your website, but it’s not like, Hey, I’m a Certified B! Again, it’s who you are when no one’s looking. You know, you have this Certified B, your employees know, because of how you treat them, but it’s not a flashy you know, title is something you do in the background, but it presents a huge opportunity. So, and there’s, again, a ton of company. I just found my new favorite company. Haven’t shopped there yet, Sarah, but I’m going to, and they’re Certified B clothing line that I found online. Because I also talk about how, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
What’s their name?
Tiana Sanchez
I can’t even tell you that I remember the name. I think it’s, oh no, I do. I think it’s Sézane. Sézane. Isn’t that beautiful? And I stumbled across because I Google all the time, looking for small loan businesses and to reduce my carbon footprint, which I also talk a lot about, but it’s a commitment that I make, personally, as an individual, to make these changes in shifts, to support small loan, to support Certified B Corporations, as a company, as a leader, why can’t you do the same? You can. It just takes a commitment.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, and what I love about the Patagonia example is, I mean, that’s a global brand. That is a brand that has been around a while. It is massive. Because sometimes I think there’s a sense of, well, either, well, we can’t do that because it’s small, or or people will be like, well, it’s easy because you’re small, Sarah, so you can do that kind of stuff. And I was like, yeah, I, and on some level, it’s like, the the decisions we make because we’re trying so hard to create a different kind of company, it also cost us more because we don’t have the bandwidth, right? We don’t. I don’t have a staff of 100 and so I’m like, but the risk is actually higher for us when you’re smaller, to give people time away, to be able to let them really prioritize their whole life, to not expect them to be working full time and and the thing is, the thing that will always, will always just, I don’t know, push me and also frustrate me, is when you take care of people, when you genuinely take care of them, they take care of the company. I mean, it’s just like, it’s when people are respected, when they have access to resources, when they feel truly heard and listened to. It’s, you know, whenever it’s like, I’ve become a little snarky. I would say, when people will say things like, well, people just don’t want to work. I was like, maybe they just don’t want to work for you.
Tiana Sanchez
That part.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I don’t know, I was like, I, if I posted, if I, if I posted something, we would get a ton of applications. Because people are craving connection. They’re craving being valued. They’re craving being appreciated. And it feels so obvious that that is a competitive advantage right now.
Tiana Sanchez
It is obvious.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s hard in a capitalist society, you know?
Tiana Sanchez
And it’s not change. This isn’t new. I don’t think what I’m sharing is new, maybe presenting it in a new way. But there are people that have done studies and research for years that have talked about, I know Josh Bersin, who’s someone that I that I really like. He talked about the irresistible, I think it was workplace or environment, and in there, before remote work was even a thing, he wrote about it 10 years ago or something. And he was like, yeah, people want flexibility. Well, hello, everybody kept saying, we can’t do remote work. We can’t be flexible. And then covid comes, and all of a sudden we’re remote first environments.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We can figure it out.
Tiana Sanchez
We can figure it out when we have to, right? And so again, feeling conned a little bit, and it’s like, no, we can do these things. So it’s not new. We just presenting it information in a maybe a new, better, different way for the times that we’re in. We, when this airs, not sure where we will be. This is an election year. It’s evergreen. This would be a topic they’ll probably listen to after the election. I’m sure that there’s some relevance to this conversation that we’re having today as people think about the upcoming election, election, no matter where you sit, these are the questions and things that we click, so again, the timeliness of this topic, given where we are as a country and as you know, just as a planet, I think may resonate with people differently than what it has done before. This is not new, just like what we experienced in early 2020, was not new. It was just in a different context, where people received it. And we have the younger generation who are very vocal, very eager to express themselves, and they don’t shy away. They kind of keep us all accountable, don’t they? So, you know, I think this is just the time.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, they have access to information and access to platforms in a way that, honestly, not that you know, long ago didn’t exist, and they’re, they’re using it, and I’m, I’m here for all of it. Tiana, it’s been such a treat, and I want to be thoughtful of your time. So because you’re a new guest, and it’s the first time you’ve been on the show, although I suspect we’ll have you back, if you’ll have us, especially once your book launches.
Tiana Sanchez
I’d love to.
Sarah Noll Wilson
The question we ask everyone the first time, and I’d love to hear your thoughts, is, what was the conversation you’ve had with yourself or someone else that was transformative for you?
Tiana Sanchez
When I was working in the financial industry, I met a real estate millionaire, first millionaire I’d ever met. It. And he imparted some advice to me when I told him I was going to be stepping out on my own, doing my own business. And he said these three things. He said, know when to suit up, show up and shut up. And it was just like the best advice that I could ever get at that time, because to me, it just said, know when to suit up like be presentable, be at your best, show up, be on time. Bring you know you the entirety of who you are. And know one to shut up. It’s like, know when to listen. And I think we talked about that today, just in the conversation of learning to listen to our employees. That, to me, has stuck with me for the last, I guess, almost 15 years has been a really great piece of advice.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I love that so much. Sometimes that’s the simplest, the simplest little comments that that make the biggest lasting impression. Tiana, for people who are interested in working with you, either bringing you in with a speaker, which I, let me be the advocate. She is a phenomenal keynote speaker. She held the attention of 1000s of people. She brought great data, insights, perspectives, and so I can’t I can’t recommend her enough, but for people who want to connect with you, to hire you or work with you, what’s the best way for them to connect?
Tiana Sanchez
Yes, super, super easy. You can go to tianasanchez dot com that’s Sanchez with a Z. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, same name. Love to connect with you there. Post a lot of stuff on there as well. I do have Instagram handle and YouTube, but my my best spot is probably LinkedIn. That’s That’s my jam. That’s where I’m at most of the time. And would love to connect with you. Also get the new book in your hands coming up in the next month.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, yeah, keep us posted on that, and then we can promote that in our newsletter as well. And we will, as always, my friends, we will put all of her contact information in the show notes. I highly recommend you connect with her, and I highly recommend you hire her. Tiana Sanchez, thank you so much for coming on the show and saying yes, we appreciate you.
Tiana Sanchez
Thank you. This was a blast. I really appreciate it. Sarah, thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been Tiana Sanchez, and I was so thrilled to be in conversation with her. Obviously, I love that she was a Hot Dogger. And I mean, I took other stuff, but I just, that that tickled me so much at the top of our conversation. I love that definition of civility that she shared, of it being a commitment to each other, right? Like, what does that look like? And so, as always, we want to hear from you. What resonated for you? Be sure to send us an email at podcast at sarahnollwilson dot com where I read and respond to all messages that we received there. And if you’ve been listening for a while or a new time listener and you want to support the show, two very simple but powerful ways that you can help support the show. The first is rate, review, and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us to increase exposure, to get on list, and to be able to continue to have great conversations like we did. The other way you can support us is, you know, if you got a little bit of money hanging around and you want to support the team that makes the show possible, consider becoming a Patreon. You can go to patreon dot com slash conversationsonconversations, where your financial contribution goes to support the team that makes this show possible. You also get early access to episodes that are ad free, and you get limited edition podcast swag from the show. So what’s not to love about that?
Speaking of the team, let’s give them some love. So our producer, Nick Wilson, our sound editor, Drew Noll, our transcriptionist, Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant, Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo crew. Thank you, and a big thank you to Tiana Sanchez for saying yes and bringing her insights with us today. Thank you all so much for listening, for showing up and that, my friends, wraps another episode of Conversations on Conversations. Remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So please be sure to rest, rehydrate, and we’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.